Question:

Dr. Jerry N. Rand is the director of the Pain Treatment Ward at Villa View Hospital in San Diego and a member of the American Pain Society. With over 25 yeras experience, and a staff of Pysiotherapists, Psychotherapists, Chiropractic and nursing staff, dr. Rand is uniquely qualified to help you help yourself. Visit us at www.RandRecovery.com

Response:

Dr. Jerry N. Rand is the director of the Pain Treatment Ward at Villa

View Hospital in San Diego and a member of the American Pain Society. With over 25 yeras experience, and a staff of Pysiotherapists, Psychotherapists, Chiropractic and nursing staff, dr. Rand is uniquely qualified to help you help yourself. << Anyone curious may want to ask themselves "why", a pain *and* addiction counseling service. I warned quite some time back about Rehab programs falling on hard times due to incredible competition, and expanding their services to include pain counseling. Quite a few people pooh poohed the idea that there were such places, but here’s one with the temerity to advertise in this group. If you feel that your pain is all in your head, or that treating your pain with opioids is "evil", then this may be a place for you to check out. Personally, I don’t feel particularly generous toward a bunch of substance abuse evangelists posing as pain control specialists. You probably shouldn’t either since this advertisement is placed here because these people consider you an out of control junky who needs to be dried out and forced to see "The Light". !^NavFont02F03C20007QGHHJC3E83B !N3

Response:

Ditto.  I definitely would not want my pain treated by someone who used to be a substance abuse counselor.  The philosophies of the two are mutually exclusive, as far as I’m concerned.    Sandie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dr. Jerry N. Rand is the director of the Pain Treatment Ward at Villa View Hospital in San Diego and a member of the American Pain Society. With over 25 yeras experience, and a staff of Pysiotherapists, Psychotherapists, Chiropractic and nursing staff, dr. Rand is uniquely qualified to help you help yourself. << Anyone curious may want to ask themselves "why", a pain *and* addiction counseling service. I warned quite some time back about Rehab programs falling on hard times due to incredible competition, and expanding their services to include pain counseling. Quite a few people pooh poohed the idea that there were such places, but here’s one with the temerity to advertise in this group. If you feel that your pain is all in your head, or that treating your pain with opioids is "evil", then this may be a place for you to check out. Personally, I don’t feel particularly generous toward a bunch of substance abuse evangelists posing as pain control specialists. You probably shouldn’t either since this advertisement is placed here because these people consider you an out of control junky who needs to be dried out and forced to see "The Light". !^NavFont02F03C20007QGHHJC3E83B !N3

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dr. Jerry N. Rand is the director of the Pain Treatment Ward at Villa View Hospital in San Diego and a member of the American Pain Society. With over 25 yeras experience, and a staff of Pysiotherapists, Psychotherapists, Chiropractic and nursing staff, dr. Rand is uniquely qualified to help you help yourself. << Anyone curious may want to ask themselves "why", a pain *and* addiction counseling service. I warned quite some time back about Rehab programs falling on hard times due to incredible competition, and expanding their services to include pain counseling. Quite a few people pooh poohed the idea that there were such places, but here’s one with the temerity to advertise in this group. If you feel that your pain is all in your head, or that treating your pain with opioids is "evil", then this may be a place for you to check out. Personally, I don’t feel particularly generous toward a bunch of substance abuse evangelists posing as pain control specialists. You probably shouldn’t either since this advertisement is placed here because these people consider you an out of control junky who needs to be dried out and forced to see "The Light". !^NavFont02F03C20007QGHHJC3E83B !N3

Ron,   The answer to your question is plain.  Dr. Rand has specialized in addiction for many years.  A large number of those suffering began their addiction with pain medications prescibed to them by doctors. When a person suffers from chronic pain and follows that up with addiction, you cannot treat them seperatly!  They go hand in hand. The pain will remain chronic so long as the addiction is still present and vice versa.  If you are aware of the American Pain Society, it states in their mission statement that addictive pain medications are suitable for treating chronic pain, EXCEPT in the cases of chemical dependency or psychological illness.  We have more patients referred to us by Workers’ Comp., Orthopedics, every other pain specialist as well as having those suffering from chemical dependency because Dr. Rand is one of only a handful of physicians who can treat both simultaneously.   There are those that are successful by treating their pain with opioids, but none who have chemical dependencies.  and give them a few years with thier painb and drugs and then ask them, and the pain is not in their heads. Bill D

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ditto.  I definitely would not want my pain treated by someone who used to be a substance abuse counselor.  The philosophies of the two are mutually exclusive, as far as I’m concerned.    Sandie Dr. Jerry N. Rand is the director of the Pain Treatment Ward at Villa View Hospital in San Diego and a member of the American Pain Society. With over 25 yeras experience, and a staff of Pysiotherapists, Psychotherapists, Chiropractic and nursing staff, dr. Rand is uniquely qualified to help you help yourself. << Anyone curious may want to ask themselves "why", a pain *and* addiction counseling service. I warned quite some time back about Rehab programs falling on hard times due to incredible competition, and expanding their services to include pain counseling. Quite a few people pooh poohed the idea that there were such places, but here’s one with the temerity to advertise in this group. If you feel that your pain is all in your head, or that treating your pain with opioids is "evil", then this may be a place for you to check out. Personally, I don’t feel particularly generous toward a bunch of substance abuse evangelists posing as pain control specialists. You probably shouldn’t either since this advertisement is placed here because these people consider you an out of control junky who needs to be dried out and forced to see "The Light". !^NavFont02F03C20007QGHHJC3E83B !N3

Sandy Read the reply I posted to Ron.  And Dr. Rand did not use to be a chemical dependency expert, he still is.  Also, they are not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand for many sufferers. Bill D

Response:

Bill D.,      Rand Recovery Resources is, at the bottom line a business. If your intentions are to drum some up, regardless of motive, that is not allowed here. If you think a few, some, most or all of us are candidates for addiction, when facing what we face in regard to pain, the fear of addiction loses its’ terror. If you are a recovering addict/alcoholic yourself, Praise God for your daily reprieve, just as we give thanks for ours from pain. We are on a collision course that will do no one here any good if you start throwing the addiction label around. There is NO 12 step recovery approach to chronic-severe pain. All the A.A./N.A. program would bring to us, is probably a dramatic increase in pain related suicide. If this is 12th step work you think you may be doing, know that you will do far more harm than anything else. Please weigh this against your own promise to practice your principals in all affairs. Peace,   Richard Sullivan

Response:

  If you are aware of the American Pain Society, it states in their

mission statement that addictive pain medications are suitable for treating chronic pain, EXCEPT in the cases of chemical dependency or psychological illness. << No, I wasn’t specifically aware, but I am aware that this cro-magnon mentality has sentenced innumerable former addicts needlessly to a lifetime of torture or suicide. We have more patients referred to us by Workers’ Comp., Orthopedics,

every other pain specialist as well as having those suffering from chemical dependency because Dr. Rand is one of only a handful of physicians who can treat both simultaneously. << I am certain your referral rate from Worker’s Comp is very high. What better way to deflect liability for the cause of the pain from the employer to the employee than by labeling the patient as an out of control addict responsible for their own pain. You and Worker’s Comp are despicable allies in this shameful abuse. Orthopedics and other pain specialists will refer when they have been convinced that the patient suffers no physical cause for the pain. Unfortunately, they are also very frequently wrong and/or too gutless to treat the pain properly. Thus again shifting the blame to the patient resulting in shameful abuse.  There are those that are successful by treating their pain with

opioids, but none who have chemical dependencies.  and give them a few years with thier painb and drugs and then ask them, and the pain is not in their heads. << More than anything, this statement reveals why you troll UseNet NewsGroups for business. Which I don’t care if you do because I believe people should be offered alternatives and make choices themselves. I don’t assume that people are too stupid to make their own choices in life or need me to protect them from people like you. Anyway, your statement about no chemically dependant people being successfully treated with opioids is patently untrue, and you know it is untrue. Several years ago, some enlightened and gutsy medical people said "Enough with this mythological opioid/addict fear in former addicts". They set out to prove this fear was groundless, and the evidence is growing stronger every year. It also results in people like yourself trolling NewsGroups for business as the evidence becomes reality. Despite the length this will add to this post, I am including a synopsis of a study I was a participant in five years ago. Dr Ytterberg was my primary care physician at the Minneapolis Veterans Affairs Clinic at the time. I was chosen to participate specifically because of my history as a former addict. More and expanded studies have come along since. But you knew that anyway didn’t you Mr William Dillon. Which should be a prime indicator to the folks reading this that you are willing to lie and deceive in order to drum up business for outdated and essentially hocus-pocus method of pain treatment. WESTPORT, Sep 28 (Reuters) – The use of codeine and oxycodone in the management of pain in patients with chronic rheumatic disease is both safe and effective, according to researchers at the Minneapolis Veterans Affairs Medical Center and the University of Minnesota. Opioid therapy is currently withheld from many patients with chronic rheumatic disease pain because of concerns about toxicity, tolerance and dependence, Dr. Steven R. Ytterberg and colleagues explain in the September issue of Arthritis & Rheumatism. In order to dispel some of these concerns, as well as to evaluate the efficacy of opioids in this patient population, the researchers retrospectively reviewed opioid use among patients seen at a rheumatology clinic during a 3-year period. Of the 644 patients identified, 290 had received prescriptions for either codeine or oxycodone or both, Dr. Ytterberg and others report. They selected 226 of these patients–113 had taken opioids for 3 months or more and 113 had taken the drugs for less than 3 consecutive months–and 76 nonopioid users from the cohort for inclusion in the study. The use of opioid medications "…significantly reduced rheumatic disease pain severity scores from 8.2 to 3.6 (on a 0-10 scale)," supporting the efficacy of these drugs in the relief of pain due to rheumatic disease. On the other hand, the data did not support concerns regarding toxicity and the development of tolerance in these patients, according to the authors.

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Glenn, I’ve watched the procedure on TV.  It’s horrific!  They make you unconscious for a few hrs (which is dangerous) and then they put a naltroxone pellet under your skin.  When you wake up you are STILL in withdrawal.  The naltroxone is for addicts because it makes opiates (usually used for heroin) ineffective when you take them.  I don’t think it’s a good process for people on pain meds for pain.  I have a friend who was withdrawn on bupernic (sp?) and she hardly had any pain at all. She had been using heroin for several yrs and was heavily addicted.  If I ever come off oxycontin, I think I would try that route myself. Good luck, Bev I am trying to stop taking my pain meds and am wondering if anyone knows about this thing where they can put you out and then detox you and then wake you up all in the span of like  24 hours.  Then you are all detoxed.  I ahve been on OxContin And OxyIR and Methdone.  I just cannot deal with getting sick from this stuff right now anjd it seems I should be able to find someone that can do that procedure. Thanks

    Just a statement from an experience.  When I went off of Morphine, my emotions went wild.  No crawling bugs etc.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Glenn – I’m probably going to make a few people have strokes on the ng, but do you know for sure that you’ll have withdrawal symptoms? As more long-term narcotics are being used, some Dr’s are finding that some people don’t have a problem with short tapers or even cold turkey. Of course, you’d want to be under a Dr’s supervision the first time you try it. I’ve been on narcotics and a host of other drugs for almost 8 1/2 years. Whenever I’ve started getting toxic symptoms, I cold turkey everything and have never had a withdrawal symptom. Good luck with whatever you decide! Kitty

Response:

Ted, When I quit methadone after about a year of use, I had some pretty ugly withdrawal. The worst of it was a feeling that there were bugs crawling inside of my bones. I had some cramps, headaches, and the usual runny nose, etc., which I could easily tolerate. But that "crawling in the bones" stuff almost drove me crazy. It lasted about a week. The only way I got any relief was to get in a very hot shower. I was truly "clean" after all of that. Marilyn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy RuffGirl Where have you been anyway?   Hows that lawyer work going too? I’ve been through numerous withdraws and some are OK and some are not too kewl. What I was wondering about is the methadone because it is mostly chemical if not all and it has a much longer half life than regular opiates, and I would assume that with the longer half life that it might take a longer period to withdraw. Thanks RuffGirl Ted Just to add my 2 cents’ worth, I quit pretty high dose of morphine sulfate plus Vicodin ES ::::counting on fingers:::: 10 days ago, using relatively low dosages of Valium during the day and Elavil and Benadryl at bedtime (which would get me through about half the night).  Anyway, I’m pleased to report that the physical withdrawal symptoms have abated almost entirely already (and I’ve been taking opiates since 1983, so you can imagine what sort of tolerance I had built up), and they were mostly cold sweats/chills/runny nose/yawning fits and generally feeling like crap.  Now I just have to deal with my unmedicated pain, which is no romp in the park, but I’m hoping the longer I can gut it out, the longer a lower dose will be effective once I resume my intake.  I have a dear friend who is a PhD shrink specializing in, of all things, addiction (and he still can’t quit smoking, heehee), and I asked him why detox programs are generally 28 days.  His answer was because that’s what the insurance companies will pay for.      Feel free to email me if you want me to babble at you some more. Ruffi the Verbose

Response:

Just to add my 2 cents’ worth, I quit pretty high dose of morphine sulfate plus Vicodin ES ::::counting on fingers:::: 10 days ago, using relatively low dosages of Valium during the day and Elavil and Benadryl at bedtime (which would get me through about half the night).  Anyway, I’m pleased to report that the physical withdrawal symptoms have abated almost entirely already (and I’ve been taking opiates since 1983, so you can imagine what sort of tolerance I had built up), and they were mostly cold sweats/chills/runny nose/yawning fits and generally feeling like crap.  Now I just have to deal with my unmedicated pain, which is no romp in the park, but I’m hoping the longer I can gut it out, the longer a lower dose will be effective once I resume my intake.  I have a dear friend who is a PhD shrink specializing in, of all things, addiction (and he still can’t quit smoking, heehee), and I asked him why detox programs are generally 28 days.  His answer was because that’s what the insurance companies will pay for.      Feel free to email me if you want me to babble at you some more. Ruffi the Verbose

Response:

I’ve been on narcotics and a host of other drugs for almost 8 1/2 years. Whenever I’ve started getting toxic symptoms, I cold turkey everything and have never had a withdrawal symptom.

Don’t get too smug about it, Kitty; I’ve been narcotic painkillers for (ulp) 16 years, during which time I took several "drug holidays" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one — welcome to Club Dread) with absolutely no withdrawal symptoms (other than the worsened pain, of course.)  Now, this time, whammo!!  I’m the Man with the Golden Arm.      So, Glenn, if you’re Elvis, may I be Frank? Ruffi BTW, what do you mean by "getting toxic symptoms?"

Response:

Howdy RuffGirl Where have you been anyway?  [Mostly lying in bed in too much physical and

emotional pain to get up other than to take care of my pets, in between fighting with the disability ins. co. that wrongfully denied my claim plus fighting for SSI, which ALSO has wrongfully denied my claim.]  Hows that lawyer work going too? [Nada, other than casual advice to friends; since I never know in advance if I'll be able to crawl out of bed on any given day, it seems too irresponsible to assume the responsibility for any case.  Just for shits and giggles, though, I took the NJ bar exam last July (no reciprocity with NY, where I practiced and was a member in good standing for 10 years) and was admitted to the NJ Bar in December, so I can now be a menace on two adjourning states <g.] I’ve been through numerous withdraws and some are OK and some are not too kewl. What I was wondering about is the methadone because it is mostly chemical if not all and it has a much longer half life than regular opiates, and I would assume that with the longer half life that it might take a longer period to withdraw. [I don’t know much about methadone other than what I’ve gleaned from

here but I was taking MS Contin when I stopped, which allegedly has a 12-hour effective range — my own experience was closer to 8 hours but I just have to be different!  I would guess, unless there’s some unique property to methadone, that it would be like me stopping the MS Contin — just taking longer to actually hit physical withdrawal, which would then go at the "standard" pace. Notice I use the word "guess" — anyone out there with methadone experience, please dive on in, the water’s fine. Best regards, Ted, Ruffi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Ted and Ruffgirl, Have you seen that some of the DR’s are prescribing an ingredient that is found in Dimetapp that supposidly STOPS tolerence from developing??? I have read a few things about it and it seems that it does work for some people. Ruffgirl, I hope you are feeling better soon! Kim

Response:

Hello all, It is Dextromethorphan (I didn’t see it in Dimetapp, though it is in many cough syrups) and must be compounded by a pharmacist to get it ‘alone’. I think I have the correct spelling. My pain doc prescribed it for me a couple of weeks ago. It made my OxyContin more effective at relieving my pain and made it last longer. I take 60 mg. three times a day. YMMV not a medical professional– yadda, yadda, yadda… web_worm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ted and Ruffgirl, Have you seen that some of the DR’s are prescribing an ingredient that is found in Dimetapp that supposidly STOPS tolerence from developing??? I have read a few things about it and it seems that it does work for some people. Ruffgirl, I hope you are feeling better soon! Kim

Response:

Glenn, Personally, I have read about these quick detoxes and am very familiar with detoxification from controled substances in general. I would stick to a 21 day standard Methadone detox. Especially if you are on a combination of drugs. Its way safer and long term results are statistically much better. Stan

Response:

Glenn, Why not get on a taper off plan and use some other meds to halt some of the side effects? I bet you could be off it all in a couple weeks. Kim

Response:

Hey Glenn – I’m probably going to make a few people have strokes on the ng, but do you know for sure that you’ll have withdrawal symptoms? As more long-term narcotics are being used, some Dr’s are finding that some people don’t have a problem with short tapers or even cold turkey. Of course, you’d want to be under a Dr’s supervision the first time you try it. I’ve been on narcotics and a host of other drugs for almost 8 1/2 years. Whenever I’ve started getting toxic symptoms, I cold turkey everything and have never had a withdrawal symptom. Good luck with whatever you decide! Kitty

Response:

Glenn, Personally, I have read about these quick detoxes and am very familiar with detoxification from controled substances in general. I would stick to a 21 day standard Methadone detox. Especially if you are on a combination of drugs. Its way safer and long term results are statistically much better. Stan

Howdy is this Stan the RXman? I have a question for you. Common sense would suggest that methadone might be harder to come off of than other opiates. Is this true? Ted

Response:

Howdy RuffGirl Where have you been anyway?   Hows that lawyer work going too? I’ve been through numerous withdraws and some are OK and some are not too kewl. What I was wondering about is the methadone because it is mostly chemical if not all and it has a much longer half life than regular opiates, and I would assume that with the longer half life that it might take a longer period to withdraw. Thanks RuffGirl Ted

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to add my 2 cents’ worth, I quit pretty high dose of morphine sulfate plus Vicodin ES ::::counting on fingers:::: 10 days ago, using relatively low dosages of Valium during the day and Elavil and Benadryl at bedtime (which would get me through about half the night).  Anyway, I’m pleased to report that the physical withdrawal symptoms have abated almost entirely already (and I’ve been taking opiates since 1983, so you can imagine what sort of tolerance I had built up), and they were mostly cold sweats/chills/runny nose/yawning fits and generally feeling like crap.  Now I just have to deal with my unmedicated pain, which is no romp in the park, but I’m hoping the longer I can gut it out, the longer a lower dose will be effective once I resume my intake.  I have a dear friend who is a PhD shrink specializing in, of all things, addiction (and he still can’t quit smoking, heehee), and I asked him why detox programs are generally 28 days.  His answer was because that’s what the insurance companies will pay for.      Feel free to email me if you want me to babble at you some more. Ruffi the Verbose

Response:

Oxycontin I beleive is a long acting or time released pain medication. Its like the MS Contin which is a time released morphine and the Oxycontin is a time released Oxycodone. Ted

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What exactly is oxycotin? — Steven Elliott Basin, MT Hello all, It is Dextromethorphan (I didn’t see it in Dimetapp, though it is in many cough syrups) and must be compounded by a pharmacist to get it ‘alone’. I think I have the correct spelling. My pain doc prescribed it for me a couple of weeks ago. It made my OxyContin more effective at relieving my pain and made it last longer. I take 60 mg. three times a day. YMMV not a medical professional– yadda, yadda, yadda… web_worm Ted and Ruffgirl, Have you seen that some of the DR’s are prescribing an ingredient that is found in Dimetapp that supposidly STOPS tolerence from developing??? I have read a few things about it and it seems that it does work for some people. Ruffgirl, I hope you are feeling better soon! Kim

Response:

What exactly is oxycotin? — Steven Elliott Basin, MT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, It is Dextromethorphan (I didn’t see it in Dimetapp, though it is in many cough syrups) and must be compounded by a pharmacist to get it ‘alone’. I think I have the correct spelling. My pain doc prescribed it for me a couple of weeks ago. It made my OxyContin more effective at relieving my pain and made it last longer. I take 60 mg. three times a day. YMMV not a medical professional– yadda, yadda, yadda… web_worm Ted and Ruffgirl, Have you seen that some of the DR’s are prescribing an ingredient that is found in Dimetapp that supposidly STOPS tolerence from developing??? I have read a few things about it and it seems that it does work for some people. Ruffgirl, I hope you are feeling better soon! Kim

Response:

Geez Ruffi – Nothing smug about it, just sharing my personal experience. For some reason I don’t build up tolerance to narcotics either.  I was on the same dose of Demerol for 6 1/2 years and it worked like a charm. Last year my condition took a turn for the worse and my dose was increased because of that, and in December it happened again, so my dose is higher, but only because of the increase in disease activity and pain.   I take buckets of drugs like immune suppressants, steroids, anti-nausea meds, pain meds, stomach meds, etc.  About once every 3 or 4 months I start to become really ill, like every cell in my body has been poisoned which I call ‘toxic symptoms’.  I cold turkey ALL the drugs for about a week to clear some of it out.  As soon as I feel better, I start the cycle over again. I’ve never had a withdrawal symptom, and I consider myself very lucky! Kitty ~~~~Don’t get too smug about it, Kitty; I’ve been narcotic painkillers for (ulp) 16 years, during which time I took several "drug holidays" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one — welcome to Club Dread) with absolutely no withdrawal symptoms (other than the worsened pain, of course.) Now, this time, whammo!! I’m the Man with the Golden Arm.