Question:

Legally, I’d suggest he should make sure his ass is covered – maybe by separating now – then he would file for (at least temporary) custody with supervised visitaion for mom due to her substance abuse issues, and then he could take her back later with court-signed agreement that she will remain clean or she would lose parental rights or be forced back into supervised visitaion. If it’s taken one step at a time that would seem to me to be the logical progression. I think that focusing on keeping the kids safe is the way to go with this situation.

The above sounds like a good idea. Best, Bob Robert A. Fink, M. D., President California Parents United, Inc. "The best parent is both parents…."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My children and I have been through hell because of my wife’s alcohol and drug addictions over the last few years.  She has gone through treatment four times (three out-patient and one in-patient).  She drank again a few weeks ago.  I was ready to divorce her, but she suggested I wait pending her getting more treatment at a Christian rehab center (CalvaryRanch.org). Right now, I am in a good position to get custody.  She has been in rehab centers or halfway houses since December 2003.  She wants to come home after her next rehab.  I don’t want her to, but am thinking about trying for the sake of the kids.  I’ve been told that if I let her come home, I am basically saying "she’s cured," which jeapordizes my chances of custody. She has stated that she’ll sign a paper if I let her come home that will give me custody if she fails again.  Is there such a thing?  I think that that is a smoke screen because there is no such legal document. What do you think?

I think your about to get screwed if you agree to it.  If I where you, I’d speak to an attorney of these matters first, but stand ready to proceed with the divorce in any case. Oh yeah, document everything, no matter how trivial it may seem at the time. It could save both you and your children in the long run.

Response:

Courts retain the right to decide what’s in a child’s "best interest," so such an agreement is 1st, really only a joint suggestion.  If she claims that it was made under duress, coercion or the influence of her drug of choice, the Court could simply decide to ignore it. But quite often when a person signs such an agreement, they feel honor-bound to stick with it.  In the 12 yrs that my current wife rec’d CS and alimony, she never asked for an increase (which was justified).  Why not?  "That was the amount I agreed to."  [Rog'] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My children and I have been through hell because of my wife’s alcohol and drug addictions over the last few years.  She has gone through treatment four times (three out-patient and one in-patient).  She drank again a few weeks ago.  I was ready to divorce her, but she suggested I wait pending her getting more treatment at a Christian rehab center (CalvaryRanch.org). Right now, I am in a good position to get custody.  She has been in rehab centers or halfway houses since December 2003. She wants to come home after her next rehab.  I don’t want her to, but am thinking about trying for the sake of the kids.  I’ve been told that if I let her come home, I am basically saying "she’s cured," which jeapordizes my chances of custody. She has stated that she’ll sign a paper if I let her come home that will give me custody if she fails again.  Is there such a thing? I think that that is a smoke screen because there is no such legal document. What do you think?

Response:

Well, if I put myself in the position of being her attorney…..here is my attack on that agreement. 1.  She was under duress to sign. She had no place else to go, she was desparate for her children and would agree to anything. 2.  It isn’t relevant at the time of trial because an amount of time has passed….and the conditions at the time of signing were different than at time of trial.  3.  That document was agreed to but she did not have the benefit of any legal counsel prior to signing and it was really an offer of settlement……. Honestly, I do not see any judge in my jurisdiction caring about the agreement at all. That wouldn’t mean you wouldn’t still get custody but that agreement wouldn’t get much consideration here. Denise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My children and I have been through hell because of my wife’s alcohol and drug addictions over the last few years.  She has gone through treatment four times (three out-patient and one in-patient).  She drank again a few weeks ago.  I was ready to divorce her, but she suggested I wait pending her getting more treatment at a Christian rehab center (CalvaryRanch.org). Right now, I am in a good position to get custody.  She has been in rehab centers or halfway houses since December 2003.  She wants to come home after her next rehab.  I don’t want her to, but am thinking about trying for the sake of the kids.  I’ve been told that if I let her come home, I am basically saying "she’s cured," which jeapordizes my chances of custody. She has stated that she’ll sign a paper if I let her come home that will give me custody if she fails again.  Is there such a thing?  I think that that is a smoke screen because there is no such legal document. What do you think?

Response:

Courts retain the right to decide what’s in a child’s "best interest," so such an agreement is 1st, really only a joint suggestion.  If she claims that it was made under duress, coercion or the influence of her drug of choice, the Court could simply decide to ignore it. But quite often when a person signs such an agreement, they feel honor-bound to stick with it.  In the 12 yrs that my current wife rec’d CS and alimony, she never asked for an increase (which was justified).  Why not?  "That was the amount I agreed to."  [Rog']

Well, your wife isn’t an addict. The: "Yes, I screwed up, but now I want my life back and will agree to ANYTHING" is classic bargaining behavior. Sure, it’s a good effort, but it is also only as good as her sobriety. IMHO – If she is clean now then I would be inclined to give her a fair chance – and that is because I know a LOT of success stories from addiction recovery. But my perspective is slanted because I hang with a lot of people who are clean and in recovery, I also know how difficult it is, and how frequent relapses are. I think if she starts drinking  or drugging again – then out with her, but then again I haven’t had to put up with OP’s experinces with her relapses – maybe he’s just had enough and figures it’s over now. Anyway, my RX: Al-Anon for him and Al-A-Teen and Al-A-Tot for the kids. That and a round of therapy for all involved. It’s going to be a long, tough row to hoe for everybody, but doable. Legally, I’d suggest he should make sure his ass is covered – maybe by separating now – then he would file for (at least temporary) custody with supervised visitaion for mom due to her substance abuse issues, and then he could take her back later with court-signed agreement that she will remain clean or she would lose parental rights or be forced back into supervised visitaion. If it’s taken one step at a time that would seem to me to be the logical progression. I think that focusing on keeping the kids safe is the way to go with this situation. Best – Fido – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My children and I have been through hell because of my wife’s alcohol and drug addictions over the last few years.  She has gone through treatment four times (three out-patient and one in-patient).  She drank again a few weeks ago.  I was ready to divorce her, but she suggested I wait pending her getting more treatment at a Christian rehab center (CalvaryRanch.org). Right now, I am in a good position to get custody.  She has been in rehab centers or halfway houses since December 2003. She wants to come home after her next rehab.  I don’t want her to, but am thinking about trying for the sake of the kids.  I’ve been told that if I let her come home, I am basically saying "she’s cured," which jeapordizes my chances of custody. She has stated that she’ll sign a paper if I let her come home that will give me custody if she fails again.  Is there such a thing? I think that that is a smoke screen because there is no such legal document. What do you think?

Response:

My children and I have been through hell because of my wife’s alcohol and drug addictions over the last few years.  She has gone through treatment four times (three out-patient and one in-patient).  She drank again a few weeks ago.  I was ready to divorce her, but she suggested I wait pending her getting more treatment at a Christian rehab center (CalvaryRanch.org). Right now, I am in a good position to get custody.  She has been in rehab centers or halfway houses since December 2003.  She wants to come home after her next rehab.  I don’t want her to, but am thinking about trying for the sake of the kids.  I’ve been told that if I let her come home, I am basically saying "she’s cured," which jeapordizes my chances of custody. She has stated that she’ll sign a paper if I let her come home that will give me custody if she fails again.  Is there such a thing?  I think that that is a smoke screen because there is no such legal document. What do you think?

Response:

Question:

i’m focussing on those two now, i will be seeing him tomorrow and every other day for an hour after work, my daughter goes to bed during that time, do you think he will be jealous if i take her up to bed?

I’m not a child psychiatrist, but here is what I think. Others may have better ideas. It seems to me that an hour is pretty short, so tucking in your daughter will take a noticeable fraction of that time. I’d say you should tuck in your daughter — she equally deserves your love and attention.  He probably will be jealous.  Its probably better for him to experience the jealousy and then get your help in dealing with it than to avoid the jealousy. This is the black magic of parenting — figuring out which hurts are going to help your kid grow and mature and which are going to leave significant scars.  Not enough limits can be quite damaging as well.  I have no answers here, just some vague ideas.    – BadHad

Response:

Ain’t that the truth, I’m up and down like a yo-yo at the moment. My biggest fear is that she hasn’t told my son that i’m visiting at 5.30 (gmt) today and i’m going to get a phone call from her saying "its not convenient" or "i haven’t told him, don’t come round, it will upset him" or something. I feel like i’ve started digging the hole again, but this is all so raw! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steady as you go, Eric. Your emotions will be bouncing all over the place for a while and you will be considering every possible option on the planet. Just try to keep yourself steady…….easier said than done but the frustration is par for the course I assure you. Try to keep things as level as possible and keep talking about it. Denise Thanks.. Why do I feel like she’s trying to control me? Or am I slipping into a self imposed victim status? Confused… You can do it Eric, keep on the good job. The best DonE The morning after… I feel good. The images still sear, but I’ve stopped digging my own hole, its all about me and the kids now. In my heart I know that if she asked my forgiveness I’d go back, but only under some pretty strict conditions. I’m ready to do this rehab. I’m ready to find a new place to live. I’m ready to do it all. Now all I have to do is wait. /me does other stuff. Thank fuck I’m at work. Peace to you all! Oh bollocks. She calls… Do you need any money? Background.. I give her

Question:

It’s important to note that that there has never been a McDonalds that has gone out of business, never.  No McDonalds restaurant ever lost money in its history, until last year, for the first time, last year marked the first time ever that some McDonalds restaurants actually started losing money and closing down, but this only happened overseas, not in our country (probably because of the political repercussions from the Iraq war which has triggered some foreign boycotts of American businesses).  But then this year marks still another set back for McDonalds, the discovery of Mad Cow disease in the U.S., although McDonalds’ beef standards have always been the most stringent possible in the industry, as a result, the least likely place that anyone could catch Mad Cow disease is from McDonalds, nevertheless, their sales have been affected too.

Actually, there is some debate about that as McDonald’s hamburgers are usually composed of "canners" or the older cattle because of leanness requirements. Of course, this idea may have been planted in my mind by the liberal press, but I read it in our local farm paper, The High Plains Journal, which was bitter at the time because McDonald’s was buying low fat beef from overseas because there was not a great enough supply of canners. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just hope this hefty contribution of $1.5 billion will trigger even more donations to the Salvation Army, because they could really use it.   Abel Malcolm http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/      

Question:

I had no reason to check. This is from a Ritalin Rehab Center.

ooh….so some eom selling their rehab services AND you trust their data?? I don’t know who DAWN is.

DAWN is not a person!!!!  YIKES.. *Only* 71st huh?

a/ER visits for "drug abuse" of Ritalin…. b/71st means "far from that common" again you are unable to extrapolate Methylphenidate results in well over a hundred thousand fewer ER visits than cocaine each year Amazing. Comparing with cocaine. Ding, ding, ding.

no no no…could have use ANY drug….fewer indicates LESS than.. we have all agreed that you think all drugs should be banned… That’s not adding prespective, it is making an excuse. We aren’t talking about Tylenol and the like.

however…if you want choose a med that is far more dangerous….tylenol iss #1 Amazing the very same figure for two years. 1999 Cocaine–168,763 Acetaminophen–28,258 Methylphenidate–1,478 Cocaine–174,896 Acetaminophen–33,613 Methylphenidate–1,487

again…1478 andd 1487 are NOT the same numbers…yikes Janny Are you trying to convince yourself of something????? Jan

actually…as difficult as it seems to be….the data given above knocks your "theories" quite out of the water… hawki

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. So how many total children ages 10-14 were treated in ERs in the US for either Ritalin intoxication or cocaine in 1990? Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. Was it 5? 10? A hundred? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. I’m not saying that even a low number would be a good thing, but it would be informative to know just how serious the problem was 13 years ago. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. I’m guessing that you didn’t bother to check to see if the claims that you posted, which are allegedly based on 1990 figures, are supported by more current information.

I had no reason to check. This is from a Ritalin Rehab Center. The most recent information from DAWN doesn’t support the claim that Ritalin abuse is escalating. Rather, it appears to be declining rather sharply:

I don’t know who DAWN is. At any rate the US has a huge problem. Starting with the docs handing it out like candy at the request of the parent, and giving it to three years old kids. Methylphenidate isn’t in the top 15 of the "Major substances of abuse";

Oh well, then if it isn’t at the top, it must be safe. I think not. Of the "Top 150 ED (Emergency Department) drug abuse episodes by frequency 2001", methylphenidate ranked 71st (0.11%); and

*Only* 71st huh? Methylphenidate results in well over a hundred thousand fewer ER visits than cocaine each year

Amazing. Comparing with cocaine. Ding, ding, ding. and–to add some perspective–tens-of-thousands fewer emergency room visits resulting from abuse than the common over-the-counter medication acetaminophen

(Tylenol and the like). That’s not adding prespective, it is making an excuse. We aren’t talking about Tylenol and the like. I find this childish, as an example, I used a child who was caught smoking. By your logic, he could say, well mom I was drinking and that is worse. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The DAWN statistics for the number of emergency room mentions for methylphenidate (Ritalin), cocaine, and acetaminophen (Tylenol and similar medications) are: 1997 Cocaine–161,087 Acetaminophen–35,448 Methylphenidate–2,474 1998 Cocaine–172,014 Acetaminophen–32,257 Methylphenidate–1,728 1999 Cocaine–168,763 Acetaminophen–28,258 Methylphenidate–1,478 2000 Cocaine–174,896 Acetaminophen–33,613 Methylphenidate–1,487

Amazing the very same figure for two years. 2001 Cocaine–193,034 Acetaminophen–30,888 Methylphenidate–1,279 [Note the big drop in numbers of ER mentions for methylphenidate between 97 and 01. The number of cases has been cut almost in half.]

Are you trying to convince yourself of something????? Jan

Response:

Re-posted to ensure that Joe Parsons has a chance to respond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – followups set Explain please????? Its his troll tricks Jan..he alters the follow ups so you in your group wont even see your reply.. which he has redirected to asad only. this makes it appear as though you have conceded defeat and he has had the last word You have got to be kidding!!!! IS THIS DISHONEST OR WHAT?!?! No wonder there is so much going on over there. I took a look, and he sure has made a name for himself. That sounds like tricks Ahola Rich uses. Barf! Jan In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the  total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin  has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" NO. I posted where I got it. I have no idea who Theta is, nor do I send  e-mails behind the scenes. My rule has always been that all discussion should appear right here. http://www.drug-rehabs.org/faqs/FAQ-ritalin.php I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many  adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. Well, read it for yourself, it came from the URL posted, Ritalin rehab  center. I figure they know what they know, not what you find difficult to swallow. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin  intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates  escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. And yet, strangely, DAWN (Drug Abuse Warning Network) places emergency room visits for ibuprofen far above those for methylphenidate. Now, now Joe, this is another stupid skeptic trick. We are talking about ibuprofen. This is another ploy used by debunkers, start comparing to make  it look better. A mommy, mommy, he did it first tactic. Do you know where the article you quoted came from? YES. This shows you did NOT read it. The title of the thread was Ritalin Addicition. HOW did you miss that??? know Narconon[1] has used it, although I don’t know whether they originated it.  My hunch is, they  did. You hunch is wrong. WHY is it you debunker organized medicine people want to blame EVERYTHING on to this group?!?! But I am still curious about the statement you made about me earlier: that  my child takes Ritalin. How many children do I have, Jan?  How old are they?  What other  medications, if any, are they taking? And, most importantly, how did you come by that information? Joe Parsons Asnwered in another post. I thought this came from our discussion three  years ago, like I said, I may have been mistaken. Now, a question for you. What led you to be so interested in Ritalin?? Jan followups set Explain please?????

Response:

In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys.

So how many total children ages 10-14 were treated in ERs in the US for either Ritalin intoxication or cocaine in 1990? Was it 5? 10? A hundred? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? I’m not saying that even a low number would be a good thing, but it would be informative to know just how serious the problem was 13 years ago. I’m guessing that you didn’t bother to check to see if the claims that you posted, which are allegedly based on 1990 figures, are supported by more current information. The most recent information from DAWN doesn’t support the claim that Ritalin abuse is escalating. Rather, it appears to be declining rather sharply: Here’s the information I found the last time I checked with the U.S. Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN): – Methylphenidate isn’t in the top 15 of the "Major substances of abuse"; – Of the "Top 150 ED (Emergency Department) drug abuse episodes by frequency 2001", methylphenidate ranked 71st (0.11%); and – Methylphenidate results in well over a hundred thousand fewer ER visits than cocaine each year and–to add some perspective–tens-of-thousands fewer emergency room visits resulting from abuse than the common over-the-counter medication acetaminophen (Tylenol and the like). The DAWN statistics for the number of emergency room mentions for methylphenidate (Ritalin), cocaine, and acetaminophen (Tylenol and similar medications) are: 1997 Cocaine–161,087 Acetaminophen–35,448 Methylphenidate–2,474 1998 Cocaine–172,014 Acetaminophen–32,257 Methylphenidate–1,728 1999 Cocaine–168,763 Acetaminophen–28,258 Methylphenidate–1,478 2000 Cocaine–174,896 Acetaminophen–33,613 Methylphenidate–1,487 2001 Cocaine–193,034 Acetaminophen–30,888 Methylphenidate–1,279 [Note the big drop in numbers of ER mentions for methylphenidate between 97 and 01. The number of cases has been cut almost in half.]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" NO. I posted where I got it. I have no idea who Theta is, nor do I send e-mails behind the scenes. My rule has always been that all discussion should appear right here. http://www.drug-rehabs.org/faqs/FAQ-ritalin.php their statements are not supported by the evidence. I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. Well, read it for yourself, it came from the URL posted, Ritalin rehab center. it’s a drug rehab center. One of the things they treat is Ritalin addiction. I figure they know what they know, not what you find difficult to swallow. Their description of their treamtne protocals appear sound but the stats they provide don’t match up, for example, with what DAWN cites. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. And yet, strangely, DAWN (Drug Abuse Warning Network) places emergency room visits for ibuprofen far above those for methylphenidate. Now, now Joe, this is another stupid skeptic trick. We are talking about ibuprofen. This is another ploy used by debunkers, start comparing to make it look better. A mommy, mommy, he did it first tactic. Have you looked at the DAWN site. The statistic you provided states that emergancy room visits for ritalin are equivalent to those for cocaine. DAWN, which tabulates those data, does not agree. Please note that Jan doesn’t read ASAD.

Nor the articles she posts.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. My guess is that her source made the fairly common mistake of magically sliding from the number of Ritalin *prescriptions* to the number of Ritalin *users*, forgetting that prescriptons for Ritalin are limited to a month’s supply at a time and are not refillable or renewable and that therefore one person taking Ritalin for ADHD will account for as many as 12 prescriptions a year.  OTOH, knowing her past pattern of "citation," her source might just have made the figure up. I’m thinking she just accepted a number that appeared on a website somewhere. The Aggregate Production Quota (APQ) established each year by DEA for Controlled Substances does not allow for enough methylphenidate to supply the number of children she claims.  Not even close.

Joe, I recall someone in ASAD posting an analysis of this argument where they showed the numbers to be strikingly small. Perhaps an update in in order?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" NO. I posted where I got it. I have no idea who Theta is, nor do I send e-mails behind the scenes. My rule has always been that all discussion should appear right here. http://www.drug-rehabs.org/faqs/FAQ-ritalin.php their statements are not supported by the evidence. I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. Well, read it for yourself, it came from the URL posted, Ritalin rehab center. it’s a drug rehab center. One of the things they treat is Ritalin addiction. I figure they know what they know, not what you find difficult to swallow. Their description of their treamtne protocals appear sound but the stats they provide don’t match up, for example, with what DAWN cites. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. And yet, strangely, DAWN (Drug Abuse Warning Network) places emergency room visits for ibuprofen far above those for methylphenidate. Now, now Joe, this is another stupid skeptic trick. We are talking about ibuprofen. This is another ploy used by debunkers, start comparing to make it look better. A mommy, mommy, he did it first tactic. Have you looked at the DAWN site. The statistic you provided states that emergancy room visits for ritalin are equivalent to those for cocaine. DAWN, which tabulates those data, does not agree.

Please note that Jan doesn’t read ASAD. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            | end

Response:

In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year

Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys.

And yet, strangely, DAWN (Drug Abuse Warning Network) places emergency room visits for ibuprofen far above those for methylphenidate. Do you know where the article you quoted came from?  I know Narconon[1] has used it, although I don’t know whether they originated it.  My hunch is, they did. But I am still curious about the statement you made about me earlier: that my child takes Ritalin. How many children do I have, Jan?  How old are they?  What other medications, if any, are they taking? And, most importantly, how did you come by that information? Joe Parsons followups set [1]  Narconon answers to a certain net-UFO cult that seems to believe we are all descended from seafood

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – followups set Explain please????? Its his troll tricks Jan..he alters the follow ups so you in your group wont even see your reply.. which he has redirected to asad only. this makes it appear as though you have conceded defeat and he has had the last word

You have got to be kidding!!!! IS THIS DISHONEST OR WHAT?!?! No wonder there is so much going on over there. I took a look, and he sure has made a name for himself. That sounds like tricks Ahola Rich uses. Barf! Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" NO. I posted where I got it. I have no idea who Theta is, nor do I send e-mails behind the scenes. My rule has always been that all discussion should appear right here. http://www.drug-rehabs.org/faqs/FAQ-ritalin.php I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. Well, read it for yourself, it came from the URL posted, Ritalin rehab center. I figure they know what they know, not what you find difficult to swallow. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. And yet, strangely, DAWN (Drug Abuse Warning Network) places emergency room visits for ibuprofen far above those for methylphenidate. Now, now Joe, this is another stupid skeptic trick. We are talking about ibuprofen. This is another ploy used by debunkers, start comparing to make it look better. A mommy, mommy, he did it first tactic. Do you know where the article you quoted came from? YES. This shows you did NOT read it. The title of the thread was Ritalin Addicition. HOW did you miss that??? know Narconon[1] has used it, although I don’t know whether they originated it.  My hunch is, they did. You hunch is wrong. WHY is it you debunker organized medicine people want to blame EVERYTHING on to this group?!?! But I am still curious about the statement you made about me earlier: that my child takes Ritalin. How many children do I have, Jan?  How old are they?  What other medications, if any, are they taking? And, most importantly, how did you come by that information? Joe Parsons Asnwered in another post. I thought this came from our discussion three years ago, like I said, I may have been mistaken. Now, a question for you. What led you to be so interested in Ritalin?? Jan followups set Explain please?????

Response:

followups set Explain please?????

Its his troll tricks Jan..he alters the follow ups so you in your group wont even see your reply.. which he has redirected to asad only. this makes it appear as though you have conceded defeat and he has had the last word follow up reset – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year Who is "some," Jan?  Who is claiming that "number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million?"  Did you get that from "Theta?" NO. I posted where I got it. I have no idea who Theta is, nor do I send e-mails behind the scenes. My rule has always been that all discussion should appear right here. http://www.drug-rehabs.org/faqs/FAQ-ritalin.php I find that claim more than a little difficult to swallow, given that the amount of methylphenidate that can be produced in a year (it’s called the APQ, for Aggregate Production Quota) will not fill prescriptions for even close to that many.  And when you take into account the fact that there are many adults taking methylphenidate, that "4 – 5 million children" figure is even more…out there. Well, read it for yourself, it came from the URL posted, Ritalin rehab center. I figure they know what they know, not what you find difficult to swallow. America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. And yet, strangely, DAWN (Drug Abuse Warning Network) places emergency room visits for ibuprofen far above those for methylphenidate. Now, now Joe, this is another stupid skeptic trick. We are talking about ibuprofen. This is another ploy used by debunkers, start comparing to make it look better. A mommy, mommy, he did it first tactic. Do you know where the article you quoted came from? YES. This shows you did NOT read it. The title of the thread was Ritalin Addicition. HOW did you miss that??? know Narconon[1] has used it, although I don’t know whether they originated it.  My hunch is, they did. You hunch is wrong. WHY is it you debunker organized medicine people want to blame EVERYTHING on to this group?!?! But I am still curious about the statement you made about me earlier: that my child takes Ritalin. How many children do I have, Jan?  How old are they?  What other medications, if any, are they taking? And, most importantly, how did you come by that information? Joe Parsons Asnwered in another post. I thought this came from our discussion three years ago, like I said, I may have been mistaken. Now, a question for you. What led you to be so interested in Ritalin?? Jan followups set Explain please?????

Response:

Another way to hook kids BEFORE they reach puberty at age 12…this is Nucking Futz!! B-0b1

You got that right! In 1990, 900,000 American kids were on Ritalin. Today some estimate the total number of children on Ritalin has increased to 4 – 5 million or more per year America now uses 90% of the world’s Ritalin – more than five times the rest of the world combined. Emergency room visits by children ages 10-14 involving Ritalin intoxication have now reached the same level as those for cocaine which indicates escalating abuse of this highly addictive drug. 80% of children on Ritalin are boys. A growing number of youngsters taking the drug Ritalin

Question:

I’m going to have to join alt.addiction-recovery.shopaholics before long. Yesterday, I bought a beautiful pair of leather shoes with heels for work. First time I have been able to wear heels in years (I was too heavy before).

Cat, this is wonderful! And hey, a couple of weeks ago when I was trying to justify a *gorgeous* designer sweater that had been marked down 70% and was still "too expensive," I stopped the "should I, shouldn’t I" seesaw and asked myself how quickly I would have reached that sum in pizza, chips, sugarfree ice cream, sugarfree chocolate, and all the other junk I used to buy in large quantities. It would have taken *maybe* a week to spend that sum on junk food. And the sweater looks a hell of a lot better on me than the junk food did! Congraulations on the heels too — I agree, heels used to hurt so much before that now I love wearing 3" heels and being comfortable — nearly all my lower heel shoes have found new homes. Not to mention that I’m a half-size smaller than last year — I think way back when, I was a 8.5W or even 9W, but now I’m back to my high school size of 7.5M or 8M. (If you buy a half size larger for heels over 2 inches, they are a lot more comfortable.) I am thrilled for you and your beauty treatments! Mary M 325-153-140

Response:

I’m going to have to join alt.addiction-recovery.shopaholics before long. Yesterday, I bought a beautiful pair of leather shoes with heels for work. First time I have been able to wear heels in years (I was too heavy before).  (If you buy a half size larger for heels over 2 inches, they are a lot more comfortable.) I am thrilled for you and your beauty treatments! Mary M 325-153-140

Thanks for the advice.  I have always wanted to wear heels. I was never allowed to in HS, never got used to it and then I was way too heavy.  Now that I’ve lost all this weight, for some reason people think I’m shorter than I really am. Jennifer weigh-in tomorrow — WASHINGTON (Rooters) – A tragic fire on Monday destroyed the personal library of President George W. Bush. Both of his books have been lost. A presidential spokesman said the president was devastated as he had not finished coloring the second one.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have had such a wonderful weight loss, Jennifer! Yeah, get yourself a gorgeous pair of heels — and whatever you didn’t do before because you were "too fat" — enjoy all those things to the fullest — it’s like having a new lease on life! Personally I am enjoying scouting all the "normal size" stores and departments that I never set foot in because I knew nothing would possibly fit me. Now I try on expensive designer clothes that I have no intention of buying, just to see how they feel and what I look like in different styles. I’ve always been a clothes nut, fat or thin, so this is like heaven for me. I went to NYC this summer and gave myself a sum to spend on rebuilding my wardrobe (I had given away 25 Hefty bags full of too-big clothes), and what a great time I had shopping and trying on clothes — oh, if there were a Loehmann’s within 100 miles I’d be there every day!

I have always been and will always be a clothes horse.  I got rid of only 15 hefty bags of clothes One of my biggest pick-me-ups through the diet has been to go try on expensive clothes I might not ever buy – then again maybe I will when I reach my goal.  Fortunately for my Visa bill and checkbook, I live 70 miles from the nearest mall; a place I could never buy anything until recently. The hubby is promising me a trip to Mall of America (4 hrs away)  for a decent wardrobe update when I reach my goal weight. I have a sports medicine consult tomorrow morning for a bum hip and once I find out what’s wrong with it & that the problem will go away, I plan to go shoe shopping.  Short skirts look that much better with a good pair of heels and I have the cutest size 12 skirt I’ve been saving for the first week of school next week! Jennifer 300/166/140

Response:

Thanks for the advice.  I have always wanted to wear heels. I was never allowed to in HS, never got used to it and then I was way too heavy.  Now that I’ve lost all this weight, for some reason people think I’m shorter than I really am.

You have had such a wonderful weight loss, Jennifer! Yeah, get yourself a gorgeous pair of heels — and whatever you didn’t do before because you were "too fat" — enjoy all those things to the fullest — it’s like having a new lease on life! Personally I am enjoying scouting all the "normal size" stores and departments that I never set foot in because I knew nothing would possibly fit me. Now I try on expensive designer clothes that I have no intention of buying, just to see how they feel and what I look like in different styles. I’ve always been a clothes nut, fat or thin, so this is like heaven for me. I went to NYC this summer and gave myself a sum to spend on rebuilding my wardrobe (I had given away 25 Hefty bags full of too-big clothes), and what a great time I had shopping and trying on clothes — oh, if there were a Loehmann’s within 100 miles I’d be there every day! Mary M

Response:

Question:

rg wrote:

Laura, do you also minister to religious addictions? You do know that religious addictions outnumber porn addictions 5 to 1.

Actually, aren’t the religiously addicted usually female? (Yes, I can think of men w/ the religious addiction but they seem to read into the "mastery" part too deeply; the Bible as a D&S guide…  My wife gets upset by my sex drive but doesn’t want to follow biblical teachings all the way, either.) I suspect that the "porn addiction" is often a reaction to a "religious addiction" in their SO. Have any studies been done on correlating this? (Yeah, yeah, one is seldom clear as to which is a cause and which is an effect;  a woman may become addicted to religion IN REACTION to her husband getting interested in sex…) — Jack C Lipton  |  cupas…@softhome.net  |  http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/           "The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn’t suck is            the day they start making vacuum cleaners." — Unknown

Response:

xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030809112634.915$gP@newsreader.com

… I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you.

You might have trouble finding a healthy relationship for that matter.  Enjoy it though…you always have yourself to play with.  Who needs a partner!

Response:

keelandrasisl…@yahoo.com (keelandra sislack) wrote:

xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030809112634.915$gP@newsreader.com… I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you. You might have trouble finding a healthy relationship for that matter.  Enjoy it though…you always have yourself to play with.  Who needs a partner!

I agree, I don’t NEED a partner, however I have several: a wife and several women that I lay, including one on a regular basis.

Response:

On 11 Aug 2003 16:14:43 GMT, xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote:

keelandrasisl…@yahoo.com (keelandra sislack) wrote: xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030809112634.915$gP@newsreader.com… I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you. You might have trouble finding a healthy relationship for that matter.  Enjoy it though…you always have yourself to play with.  Who needs a partner! I agree, I don’t NEED a partner, however I have several: a wife and several women that I lay, including one on a regular basis.

That is the key.  The less you NEED them, the more accessible they are! Women sense and exploit weakness.  When they fear losing you to other women, though, they will do whatever they can to please. Any guy who wants to really spice up his marriage needs to go get some no the side, and reap the benefits.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jd…@yahoo.com (Kendricks) wrote:

On 11 Aug 2003 16:14:43 GMT, xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote: keelandrasisl…@yahoo.com (keelandra sislack) wrote: xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030809112634.915$gP@newsreader.com… I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you. You might have trouble finding a healthy relationship for that matter.  Enjoy it though…you always have yourself to play with.  Who needs a partner! I agree, I don’t NEED a partner, however I have several: a wife and several women that I lay, including one on a regular basis. That is the key.  The less you NEED them, the more accessible they are! Women sense and exploit weakness.  When they fear losing you to other women, though, they will do whatever they can to please. Any guy who wants to really spice up his marriage needs to go get some no the side, and reap the benefits.

I believe that everyone, men and women, should have multiple sexual partners.  Marriage definitely should NOT change that!

Response:

xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030811121443.923$ZN@newsreader.com

… keelandrasisl…@yahoo.com (keelandra sislack) wrote: xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030809112634.915$gP@newsreader.com… I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you. You might have trouble finding a healthy relationship for that matter.  Enjoy it though…you always have yourself to play with.  Who needs a partner! I agree, I don’t NEED a partner, however I have several: a wife and several women that I lay, including one on a regular basis.

You sound like quite the catch.  Where do you live, stud?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -keelandra sislack wrote:

xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030811121443.923$ZN@newsreader.com… keelandrasisl…@yahoo.com (keelandra sislack) wrote: xxxx…@hotmail.com (XXX) wrote in message <news:20030809112634.915$gP@newsreader.com… I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you. You might have trouble finding a healthy relationship for that matter.  Enjoy it though…you always have yourself to play with.  Who needs a partner! I agree, I don’t NEED a partner, however I have several: a wife and several women that I lay, including one on a regular basis. You sound like quite the catch.  Where do you live, stud?

Now, now, Keelandra!    I thought you were married already?    I realize this is the 21st century, where "anything goes", and morality is seemingly non-existent, but really…..

Response:

I enjoy my sex and porn addictioon, thank you.

Response:

"Laura" <ldho…@positive-thinking.com

wrote in message

news:bda49bda.0308090016.7703ec54@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I created a Porn Addiction forum for those that have found themselves addicted or for the spouses that have discovered that there spouse has turned away from them due to bringing home unwanted desires or addictions that made a gap in the marriage or serious relationship. It is your safe place to come and share your pain and feelings upon discovery of your partner or loved ones addiction, whether it be a sexual or drug related, or even fantasy (ie Porn, chat, cybersex) All are welcome here, even the betraying partner. I created this forum out of my own desire to find peace in myself when i found out my fiance’ had a porn addiction. And felt such a ovrwhelming desire to vent emotions, and i wanted to create that for others.. the ones addicted to anything, as well as the spouses and loved ones who decided to stay in the relationship with the one who has hurt them with thier addiction. I hope you at least visit it, and help me make it grow. http://www.secretaddictions.com/forum/ Thank you, Laura

Laura, do you also minister to religious addictions? You do know that religious addictions outnumber porn addictions 5 to 1. rg

Response:

I created a Porn Addiction forum for those that have found themselves addicted or for the spouses that have discovered that there spouse has turned away from them due to bringing home unwanted desires or addictions that made a gap in the marriage or serious relationship. It is your safe place to come and share your pain and feelings upon discovery of your partner or loved ones addiction, whether it be a sexual or drug related, or even fantasy (ie Porn, chat, cybersex) All are welcome here, even the betraying partner. I created this forum out of my own desire to find peace in myself when i found out my fiance’ had a porn addiction. And felt such a ovrwhelming desire to vent emotions, and i wanted to create that for others.. the ones addicted to anything, as well as the spouses and loved ones who decided to stay in the relationship with the one who has hurt them with thier addiction. I hope you at least visit it, and help me make it grow. http://www.secretaddictions.com/forum/ Thank you, Laura

Response:

Question:

* What issues or barriers are preventing the delivery of behavioral health and addiction treatment services to those with a co-occurring condition? * What can be done to help those with co-occurring disorders gain access to behavioral health or addiction treatment? * How big of a problem is the misdiagnosis of people with co-occurring disorders? What are the critical factors for assessing these disorders? * How is the recovery process different for those with coexisting disorders? You can ask these questions and more as part of a "live" online discussion with Thomas A. Kirk, Jr., Ph.D., Commissioner, Connecticut Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services, on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 from 3 to 4 p.m. EST. Be a part of a lively exchange with one of the country’s foremost authorities on services for persons with addiction and mental disorders. http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/chatformsubmit.aspx After watching "When Addiction and Mental Disorders Co-Occur," [available for viewing at http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/w.aspx?ID=178] you will likely have many questions on how to treat individuals with co-occurring and co-existing disorders. Mark your calendar today, pass it on, and post any of your questions in advance using the box at http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/chatformsubmit.aspx or any time during the live chat.  A transcript of the chat will be posted within 48 hours after the chat is conducted; to view it, follow the link from http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/. Thank you, Farra Trompeter Senior Marketing Specialist SAMHSA’s National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/

Response:

I do not understand the entire parapgraph, BUB! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – * What issues or barriers are preventing the delivery of behavioral health and addiction treatment services to those with a co-occurring condition? * What can be done to help those with co-occurring disorders gain access to behavioral health or addiction treatment? * How big of a problem is the misdiagnosis of people with co-occurring disorders? What are the critical factors for assessing these disorders? * How is the recovery process different for those with coexisting disorders? You can ask these questions and more as part of a "live" online discussion with Thomas A. Kirk, Jr., Ph.D., Commissioner, Connecticut Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services, on Wednesday, March 19, 2003 from 3 to 4 p.m. EST. Be a part of a lively exchange with one of the country’s foremost authorities on services for persons with addiction and mental disorders. http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/chatformsubmit.aspx After watching "When Addiction and Mental Disorders Co-Occur," [available for viewing at http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/w.aspx?ID=178] you will likely have many questions on how to treat individuals with co-occurring and co-existing disorders. Mark your calendar today, pass it on, and post any of your questions in advance using the box at http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/chatformsubmit.aspx or any time during the live chat.  A transcript of the chat will be posted within 48 hours after the chat is conducted; to view it, follow the link from http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/multimedia/. Thank you, Farra Trompeter Senior Marketing Specialist SAMHSA’s National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month http://www.recoverymonth.gov/2003/

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait till you get to Lunch at the Gotham Cafe. Well there goes the ending.’ Huh? That’s not the ending. It’s in the middle. Book tease. Tease tease.

I guess you can’t tease at home anymore.

Response:

I found nothing about him going blind, but the site stated that he was considering retirement in about 2 years.

   In an interview of him that I saw on tv, he had mentioned that the type of blindness which he was experiencing caused loss of vision from the center of his gaze, then in time will work its way towards the perimeter of it. Bright be thy day in the sun,    Wintershard    minterra.yahoo.com    ARW website at www.shard-designs.com/arwnewsgroup

Response:

  In an interview of him that I saw on tv, he had mentioned that the type of blindness which he was experiencing caused loss of vision from the center of his gaze, then in time will work its way towards the perimeter of it.

This is just terrible. He’s only in his 50’s isn’t he? It is so saddening that someone who gives so much joy to others with his creativity has to go through this. I wonder if his accident was the cause of this horrible thing.

Response:

He keeps it. It is one of the things SK does. Quite fascinating.

Ok, that’s what I was thinking. Personally, I avoid public bathrooms like the plague… they scare me, so I haven’t encountered much of that type graffiti, lol. I’ve never been one to write things down, I keep them in my head…but I’ve always thought there is something to writing things down.  I have a pretty good memory, so for me it doesn’t seem necessary…but when people do write things down they transform, become something more.

Very true. I have kept a journal of quotes I like that have meant something to me, but also, of phrases or descriptions of things I like in anything I come across, really, not to crib for my own work, but more to inspire me to find my own way. ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, a quick visit to the official SK site answered some questions. He is going to use some of these newer characters (such as Dinky and Ted Brautigan) in the DT series. The 5th DT- Wolves of Calla will be released in late 2003. He has already written the 6th-Song of Susannah, and is 1/2 done with book 7. They will all be released about 3 months apart from each other. (yes!) I found nothing about him going blind, but the site stated that he was considering retirement in about 2 years. Also, they released the name of the person who wrote The Diary of Ellen Rimbaum (from Rose Red)- a musician named Ridley pearson, who has another book coming out titled "Art of Deception". This is a very informative site! http://www.stephenking.com

Awesome, thanks! I read that thing (the blindness) on a different ng, I’ll see if I can find it in google, and check out its legit-ness. <Crosses fingers ~Lilly — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

   In an interview of him that I saw on tv, he had mentioned that the type of blindness which he was experiencing caused loss of vision from the center of his gaze, then in time will work its way towards the perimeter of it.

Damn… all I could find was the name of it. Macular Degeneration. Poor guy. ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

I found nothing about him going blind, but the site stated that he was considering retirement in about 2 years.    In an interview of him that I saw on tv, he had mentioned that the type of blindness which he was experiencing caused loss of vision from the center of his gaze, then in time will work its way towards the perimeter of it.

Sounds like macular degeneration. darkness, laughter and light, True

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He keeps it. It is one of the things SK does. Quite fascinating. Ok, that’s what I was thinking. Personally, I avoid public bathrooms like the plague… they scare me, so I haven’t encountered much of that type graffiti, lol.

Written in the men’s room where I work…"Joe licks the sweat off of dead men’s balls"  LOL

Response:

With writing i imagine the same would be true as with art. I keep _kewl_ things around to inspire…a visual notebook? I have pieces of art I like around me to inspire me.. I think my gardens do that too. I try as much as possible to surround myself with things I like…for all the senses.

I agree completely! ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

Written in the men’s room where I work…"Joe licks the sweat off of dead men’s balls"  LOL

Damn… creative if nothing else. <shakes head ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

Written in the men’s room where I work…"Joe licks the sweat off of dead men’s balls"  LOL Damn… creative if nothing else. <shakes head ~L

I’m going to let this one go, because I’m not one to deprive anyone, even someone as stupid as you, of Ze kat lady’s special brand of wit.

Response:

Wait till you get to Lunch at the Gotham Cafe.

Well there goes the ending.

Response:

Wait till you get to Lunch at the Gotham Cafe. Well there goes the ending.’

Huh? That’s not the ending. It’s in the middle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Wait till you get to Lunch at the Gotham Cafe. Well there goes the ending.’ Huh? That’s not the ending. It’s in the middle.

Book tease.

Response:

I HAVE to get Hearts in Atlantis!!! Dammit! Steven King /does/ carry over.. I’ve seen elements of Deloris Claiborne in ”Gerald’s Game” <- one scarey mofo of a book]  and other carry-overs. That’s what hooked me I think. When he does this, it’s like visiting an old friend…In The Tommyknockers, Pennywise the Clown has a cameo. In Bag of Bones, Ralph Roberts from Insomnia has a brief part. In Rose Madder, again there is that DT theme.

I’ve always thought it was so cool when he did that! Yea.. it’ll hook ya, just to see if you can catch another one. eheh Speaking of cameos, I get a real kick out of how he has to appear as a major dork in a lot of the movies based on his book. Such as in The Stand, Sleepwalkers, and Pet Cemetery? I think.

I know!! haha! I think he’s been in all of his movies.

Response:

I HAVE to get Hearts in Atlantis!!! Dammit! Steven King /does/ carry over.. I’ve seen elements of Deloris Claiborne in ”Gerald’s Game” <- one scarey mofo of a book]  and other carry-overs.

That’s what hooked me I think. When he does this, it’s like visiting an old friend…In The Tommyknockers, Pennywise the Clown has a cameo. In Bag of Bones, Ralph Roberts from Insomnia has a brief part. In Rose Madder, again there is that DT theme. Speaking of cameos, I get a real kick out of how he has to appear as a major dork in a lot of the movies based on his book. Such as in The Stand, Sleepwalkers, and Pet Cemetery? I think.

Response:

Sorry, I lost the thread discussing this book. I just finished the Gunslinger story and Everything’s Eventual. King says that The Dark Tower 5 is done!! Anyone know when it’s going to be released? Also, in E.E. did anyone think that the character Dinky was one of those "Breaker" people as found in Hearts in Atlantis? If Dink is a Breaker, this would mean that King is carrying Dark Tower elements over into his other works. He must really be involved with this story, and I bet the next book will be phenomenal!

I really admire that man. Married to the same woman, who is not some Hollywood rail thin stepford trophy wife, loves animals, and is a good father. What’s not to like? Plus the man has been through the mill, addiction, recovery, and that hellish accident, which is when he was working on the treatment of Rose Red, which I thought was creepy to say the least. My favorite story in EE was the one about the insane waiter/maitre’d. Heh (for just soooo many reasons…)  I heard a sad story, and I hope it’s just a rumor… I hear he’s slowly going blind and that he has, something like 5 more books outlined, and then he’s going to stop writing altogether. I think it’s for more reasons than just losing his sight though, I guess he’s feeling like he’s written everything he has in him. I hope that’s not true, but I know some of his audience feels he’s already been recycling themes and stuff, so… ~Lilly — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

I HAVE to get Hearts in Atlantis!!! Dammit! Steven King /does/ carry over.. I’ve seen elements of Deloris Claiborne in ”Gerald’s Game” <- one scarey mofo of a book]  and other carry-overs.

Have you seen the flicks for both of those? ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

I HAVE to get Hearts in Atlantis!!! Dammit! Steven King /does/ carry over.. I’ve seen elements of Deloris Claiborne in ”Gerald’s Game” <- one scarey mofo of a book]  and other carry-overs. Have you seen the flicks for both of those?

I’ve seen Deloris Caliborne many times. Never knew Gerald’s Game was made into a movie, though. Was it good? I can see how it could have been made.. wow. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, I lost the thread discussing this book. I just finished the Gunslinger story and Everything’s Eventual. King says that The Dark Tower 5 is done!! Anyone know when it’s going to be released? Also, in E.E. did anyone think that the character Dinky was one of those "Breaker" people as found in Hearts in Atlantis? If Dink is a Breaker, this would mean that King is carrying Dark Tower elements over into his other works. He must really be involved with this story, and I bet the next book will be phenomenal! I really admire that man. Married to the same woman, who is not some Hollywood rail thin stepford trophy wife, loves animals, and is a good father. What’s not to like? Plus the man has been through the mill, addiction, recovery, and that hellish accident, which is when he was working on the treatment of Rose Red, which I thought was creepy to say the least. My favorite story in EE was the one about the insane waiter/maitre’d. Heh (for just soooo many reasons…)  I heard a sad story, and I hope it’s just a rumor… I hear he’s slowly going blind and that he has, something like 5 more books outlined, and then he’s going to stop writing altogether. I think it’s for more reasons than just losing his sight though, I guess he’s feeling like he’s written everything he has in him. I hope that’s not true, but I know some of his audience feels he’s already been recycling themes and stuff, so… I felt he started to get redundant and recycle old themes, but lately his work has been good. I’ve only read 4 or 5 of the EE stories so far.  I’m also reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry.  But my fav so far was the story of the travelling salesman, Alfie, and his notebook of grafitti!  And excellent short story.  I think some of his stories don’t move well…like they are filled with stuff just to fill them and make them longer.

Wait till you get to Lunch at the Gotham Cafe.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I really admire that man. Married to the same woman, who is not some Hollywood rail thin stepford trophy wife, loves animals, and is a good father. What’s not to like? Plus the man has been through the mill, addiction, recovery, and that hellish accident, which is when he was working on the treatment of Rose Red, which I thought was creepy to say the least. My favorite story in EE was the one about the insane waiter/maitre’d. Heh (for just soooo many reasons…)  I heard a sad story, and I hope it’s just a rumor… I hear he’s slowly going blind and that he has, something like 5 more books outlined, and then he’s going to stop writing altogether. I think it’s for more reasons than just losing his sight though, I guess he’s feeling like he’s written everything he has in him. I hope that’s not true, but I know some of his audience feels he’s already been recycling themes and stuff, so… ~Lilly —

Ok, a quick visit to the official SK site answered some questions. He is going to use some of these newer characters (such as Dinky and Ted Brautigan) in the DT series. The 5th DT- Wolves of Calla will be released in late 2003. He has already written the 6th-Song of Susannah, and is 1/2 done with book 7. They will all be released about 3 months apart from each other. (yes!) I found nothing about him going blind, but the site stated that he was considering retirement in about 2 years. Also, they released the name of the person who wrote The Diary of Ellen Rimbaum (from Rose Red)- a musician named Ridley pearson, who has another book coming out titled "Art of Deception". This is a very informative site! http://www.stephenking.com

Response:

I felt he started to get redundant and recycle old themes, but lately his work has been good. I’ve only read 4 or 5 of the EE stories so far.  I’m also reading Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry.  But my fav so far was the story of the travelling salesman, Alfie, and his notebook of grafitti!  And excellent short story.  I think some of his stories don’t move well…like they are filled with stuff just to fill them and make them longer.

That one was good too. Didn’t he say either he kept a book of grafitti, or he knew someone who did? It’s been a while since I read it… I gots the Alzheimer’s, heh. ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

I’ve seen Deloris Caliborne many times. Never knew Gerald’s Game was made into a movie, though. Was it good? I can see how it could have been made.. wow.

Sorry, I meant DC and Hearts in Atlantis. I think they were both very good. I gots the dvd of both I likes em so much! ~L — If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture – that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves. Edward Abbey, In Death

Response:

Sorry, I lost the thread discussing this book. I just finished the Gunslinger story and Everything’s Eventual. King says that The Dark Tower 5 is done!! Anyone know when it’s going to be released? Also, in E.E. did anyone think that the character Dinky was one of those "Breaker" people as found in Hearts in Atlantis? If Dink is a Breaker, this would mean that King is carrying Dark Tower elements over into his other works. He must really be involved with this story, and I bet the next book will be phenomenal!

I HAVE to get Hearts in Atlantis!!! Dammit! Steven King /does/ carry over.. I’ve seen elements of Deloris Claiborne in ”Gerald’s Game” <- one scarey mofo of a book]  and other carry-overs.

Response:

Sorry, I lost the thread discussing this book. I just finished the Gunslinger story and Everything’s Eventual. King says that The Dark Tower 5 is done!! Anyone know when it’s going to be released? Also, in E.E. did anyone think that the character Dinky was one of those "Breaker" people as found in Hearts in Atlantis? If Dink is a Breaker, this would mean that King is carrying Dark Tower elements over into his other works. He must really be involved with this story, and I bet the next book will be phenomenal!

Response:

Question:

That’s not what he said, but I got the message.  My friend Brian…if you pay attention to my posts, you’ve seen me write about him. Due to circumstances beyond my control, our friendship is about to fall by the wayside.  I know it was inevitable, but he found a cooler friend.  I should say he reconnected with an old friend who’s cooler than I am and can give him a closer approximation of what he needs.  The new cool friend is homosexual, as Brian is, and while they aren’t attracted to each other, he now has a gay friend with whom he can do stuff.  This gay friend manages a bar.  Now, Brian will have something better to do than hang out with his heterosexual friend Angela. I know he needs this…I know he needs someone who can relate better to that aspect of his life…but it hurts, just the same, even though I haven’t seen him in months.  We just got in contact again when he finally got a computer, and now I’m going to lose him because I don’t run a gay bar. So much for friendship. I’m going to finish grading those damned projects now.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s not what he said, but I got the message.  My friend Brian…if you pay attention to my posts, you’ve seen me write about him. Due to circumstances beyond my control, our friendship is about to fall by the wayside.  I know it was inevitable, but he found a cooler friend.  I should say he reconnected with an old friend who’s cooler than I am and can give him a closer approximation of what he needs.  The new cool friend is homosexual, as Brian is, and while they aren’t attracted to each other, he now has a gay friend with whom he can do stuff.  This gay friend manages a bar.  Now, Brian will have something better to do than hang out with his heterosexual friend Angela. I know he needs this…I know he needs someone who can relate better to that aspect of his life…but it hurts, just the same, even though I haven’t seen him in months.  We just got in contact again when he finally got a computer, and now I’m going to lose him because I don’t run a gay bar. So much for friendship. I’m going to finish grading those damned projects now.

Oh, Angela.  You are so cool, and I am sorry and very sad to hear that he doesn’t value your friendship the way you do.   I know what this feels like, all too well.  I have a friend I recently contacted whom I had hurt some years ago, but never knew.  There is still a shred of hope, but not much at all.  It will hurt if we lose that, but I need to know where we stand.  It’s her call now, I’ve done all I can. {{{{{Angela}}}}} — "Nothing contributes so much to tranquility of the mind as a steady purpose – a point to which the soul may fix its intellectual eye." Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley

Response:

Oh, Angela.  You are so cool, and I am sorry and very sad to hear that he doesn’t value your friendship the way you do.   I know what this feels like, all too well.  I have a friend I recently contacted whom I had hurt some years ago, but never knew.  There is still a shred of hope, but not much at all.  It will hurt if we lose that, but I need to know where we stand. It’s her call now, I’ve done all I can. {{{{{Angela}}}}}

I’m sorry you know this pain, too.  : (  As I said, he didn’t actually come out and say that, but I’ve been through this with him before.  He’ll be a great friend, then something will happen, and he’ll toss me aside like an old shoe, until he needs me again. (((((((((((((((((Nathan))))))))))))))))) I hope she gets in touch with you.  If she doesn’t, it’s definitely her loss. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "Nothing contributes so much to tranquility of the mind as a steady purpose – a point to which the soul may fix its intellectual eye." Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley

Response:

I’m sorry you know this pain, too.  : (  As I said, he didn’t actually come out and say that, but I’ve been through this with him before.  He’ll be a great friend, then something will happen, and he’ll toss me aside like an old shoe, until he needs me again. (((((((((((((((((Nathan))))))))))))))))) I hope she gets in touch with you.  If she doesn’t, it’s definitely her loss.

That’s a shame, because I bet you are a wonderful and caring friend.  It’s his loss, since he is missing out on someone who is very cool and special to those whose lives she touches. — "Nothing contributes so much to tranquility of the mind as a steady purpose – a point to which the soul may fix its intellectual eye." Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley

Response:

With respect, is this a reality, or are you *assuming* that now he has this other friend he won’t need you?  In the past I’ve walked away/backed off/lost contact with people leaving them totally baffled, and often very hurt.  I made the decision that they wouldn’t want me any more without even consulting them first.  It almost sounds as though *you’ve* made the decision he won’t want you because this other friend can give him what you can’t, but what about the things you can give him that this other guy can’t?

I see what you’re saying.  I won’t deny that it is possible, though highly unlikely.  I’ve been through this with him before.  I know what happens when he gets new friends, especially if he has that one fundamental thing in common with them.  His message basically said "That doesn’t mean I don’t love ya, but HE’S GAY!!!!" Maybe you and he could at least talk about the situation and any insecurities you might have, is there a chance you didn’t "get the message" at all, but *gave yourself* an incorrect message? You say yourself that’s not what he said…as you’re close friends, maybe you could trust him to be telling the truth?

He’s telling the truth as he knows it…but I know what will happen, because it’s happened with him before.  I do plan on talking to him about it.  I just needed to get that initial shock out of my system.  I’m not quite ready to address it with him yet.

Response:

I have a friend who I love very much.  I don’t know why exactly, because there are things about her that make it difficult for me to be her friend (explained below), but there’s something about her, a chord she touches in me, that keeps me loving her.

Yep…that’s how Bri is for me.  He’s like my baby brother. But the thing is that she’s not unlike your friend, in some ways.  I know that she cares about me, too.  I know that I’m important to her. But she does things much like this… if she gets a better offer, essentially, she goes off and does that thing, usually without even telling me (which has occasionally left me stranded in some pretty strange situations).  If she’s in front of me, I’d trust her with my life.  If she’s not, I don’t believe a word she says about what she will or will not do, until I actually see it.

Yep…that’s just it.  He’ll go off and live his life and then come back when he really needs me. I’ve thought, so many times, about why I continue to participate (off and on, essentially) in a friendship that’s so difficult for me.  It’s partly that I have a hard time letting go of people I care about, and there are probably other reasons as well.  But I’m trying like hell to learn something from this, something about taking people as they are,. accepting them for what they are, and what they are not.  It’s VERY difficult.  I suppose that the main reason I’m writing this– other than the fact that I’m having a hard time with this myself– is to say that I think this is what you have to do with your friend.  You have to just accept that this is the way he is, and– this is the hard part– that his behavior is a reflection of the way he is and NOT a reflection of how he feels about you.

YOu’re right, of course, Nina.  I suppose I have come to that realization, in a sense, because I continue to be friends with him, even when he treats me badly.  I do know that that’s the way he is, and am trying to accept the superficial side of him along with the deep and caring person that I know he can be. Now, if you figure out how to do this easily, let me know.  Sigh.  :-)

It’s not easy.  It takes a great deal of patience, and a strong desire to continue the friendship. Take care of yourself, and thank you for responding.  It’s nice to know there are other people who hold on to friendships like this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nina

Response:

That’s a shame, because I bet you are a wonderful and caring friend.  It’s his loss, since he is missing out on someone who is very cool and special to those whose lives she touches.

THat’s a very nice thing to say, Nathan.  I do try to be a caring friend. Sometimes, that falls by the wayside as I deal with my own stuff, including the pressures of my job.  Still, I try. I think it takes someone who is a good friend to recognize another person who is a good friend. : ) Have a fantabulously superific Sunday. : ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "Nothing contributes so much to tranquility of the mind as a steady purpose – a point to which the soul may fix its intellectual eye." Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not easy.  It takes a great deal of patience, and a strong desire to continue the friendship. Take care of yourself, and thank you for responding.  It’s nice to know there are other people who hold on to friendships like this. I keep thinking that there’s something that I’m supposed to learn from this, and that’s part of why I hang on to it.  I get better with it all the time… but the problem is that this kind of thing is such a HUGE trigger for me.  I have a hard time with feeling important to people; I feel like I’m invisible and that I don’t matter.  It’s the first thing that comes into my head when I’m sliding down, and the last couple of days have been like this, so this is at the forefront of my mind at the moment.  It’s some kind of litany… please see me, please need me, please love me.  I don’t even know who I’m talking to, and I suspect that this is something deep and childhood-related, but the upshot of it is that it makes me feel like hell. So anyway, I’m digressing (as usual), but that ability to separate what people are doing because of what’s going on with them from what people are doing because of me seems hugely important at the moment.

I’ve been reading this thread from a slightly different, guiltier angle. My old friends, it’s been so hard. So painful for all of us, through my illness. My heart is so heavy with not being able to be the person they knew before my total mental breakdown, and of course I am far away from a lot of them geographically, but even the few that live close…it’s not easy for me to do much but go to work, work on my relationship, and tend to my health–which over the years has added an autoimmune disease to my mental illness and addiction recovery work (which I don’t count as an illness, but it’s still a dark goddess I must attend–I have been fighting cravings this past year more than I have since I got sober in ‘95). I’ve always had a fairly substantial core of excellent, close friends. But with the exception of a few people, it’s been brutal both ways trying to help them understand that I have new limits as to what I can give them right now, and maybe for awhile. It will not always be like this, I told them, when I could finally get the nerve up to speak instead of hiding like a coward, so sure of their hate and blame (and I have gotten more than a few expressions of ‘why aren’t you there for me’ and ‘you are not reliable,’ and I have felt so terrible, so guilty, and then so angry–I’m struggling for my life here, please, or my mother just got diagnosed with cancer, or I have had a disease that I just found out has been affecting my daily life, can’t you stop talking about you for a moment?). Some I just shut down against. I do that a lot, and then I hurt people, and I feel too hated to reach out again. I mess up a lot. I guess this isn’t your situation, Angela, so I’m sorry to hog on your thread.  I’m tearing up right now, though, because if there’s anything that makes me crawl with shame and pain and anger, it’s my relationship to the friends in my life, and both my guilt and feelings of betrayal: that they fear my problems, judge them, are impatient with them.  How I hate my own fatigue, my craziness, the dirt of mental illness that will not wash off, the failures, the standing on the outside that I’ve imposed on myself, for fear of being misunderstood or shamed. The way one of my best friends in the entire world excluded me from her wedding after I opened up to her when she told me I had let her down–despite my finally laying my tender, aching heart at her feet, letting her in like she so desired, she never told me she had left me out of her Quaker wedding ceremony, until I realized the moment my other friends got up to formally participate, and the agonizing sobs I cried late that night in my rented room, the shame, being like sisters to this woman, but being revealed in front of all her other friends and family as now not quite good enough. She once wrote me, while we were talking painful talks like the growth of new skin: When you can be the kind of friend who always is present, then we will be close. I need that kind of friend. And I replied, but what if I can’t give you 100% of what you need? Does that mean I can never be close to you like I want? Apparently, that was the verdict. It broke me, that wedding, when I found myself excluded. Her other friends danced around her in a circle. But I could not bear to, because I was afraid I would cry. I did not want to make a scene. I sat outside with some other friends and wore a faint smile, played with the children, fled into the night, tears streaming down my cheeks. minx — All stories are about wolves. All worth repeating, that is. Anything else is sentimental drivel. — Margaret Atwood

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I keep thinking that there’s something that I’m supposed to learn from this, and that’s part of why I hang on to it.  I get better with it all the time… but the problem is that this kind of thing is such a HUGE trigger for me.  I have a hard time with feeling important to people; I feel like I’m invisible and that I don’t matter.  It’s the first thing that comes into my head when I’m sliding down, and the last couple of days have been like this, so this is at the forefront of my mind at the moment.  It’s some kind of litany… please see me, please need me, please love me.  I don’t even know who I’m talking to, and I suspect that this is something deep and childhood-related, but the upshot of it is that it makes me feel like hell. So anyway, I’m digressing (as usual), but that ability to separate what people are doing because of what’s going on with them from what people are doing because of me seems hugely important at the moment.

I know what you mean.  For the past week or so, any attention I’ve gotten just hasn’t seemed to stem the well of bad feeling about myself from flowing.  Feeling like that makes situations like these friendships even worse.  It makes it that much more difficult to remember that it isn’t about you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nina

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve always had a fairly substantial core of excellent, close friends. But with the exception of a few people, it’s been brutal both ways trying to help them understand that I have new limits as to what I can give them right now, and maybe for awhile. It will not always be like this, I told them, when I could finally get the nerve up to speak instead of hiding like a coward, so sure of their hate and blame (and I have gotten more than a few expressions of ‘why aren’t you there for me’ and ‘you are not reliable,’ and I have felt so terrible, so guilty, and then so angry–I’m struggling for my life here, please, or my mother just got diagnosed with cancer, or I have had a disease that I just found out has been affecting my daily life, can’t you stop talking about you for a moment?). Some I just shut down against. I do that a lot, and then I hurt people, and I feel too hated to reach out again. I mess up a lot. And I see it from this way, too.  Everything you wrote cut to the heart of the other side of my relationships; I saved this part because it is the essence of it.  I’m not such a good friend, either; everything you say above is the other side of what’s true about me as a friend…  the things I’ve let go, the email I haven’t answered, the phone calls I haven’t returned.  All out of a combination of depression and fatigue and the sheer inability to explain things to people who haven’t been through these things.  The vagaries of my own head.  And this is the irony, that I have these relationships like the thing that I was first writing about, and I have this other side, too.

It brings more sadness into lives all ready filled to bursting with it. My identity is built–I should say, as an adult I have continued to build my identity on work (or school) and caregiving. Not strict caregiving, like being a mom, or a nurse, or a teacher like you and angela. But being a loving and supportive friend or family member. And even, in a general sense, just someone who takes care. When my brother killed himself, it was a great blow to my belief–I suspect this, rather than feel it, because I have never been able to access the deep place where this might bleed–that I was good at caretaking, since I had tried to protect him from the time, practically, that he was born. There is a picture I just found a week or two ago. He is a baby of some months. His one-piece outfit is yellow, and his legs are in white tights and at that stage of baby-kick fat when everything stops looking like it came off a chicken. We are wearing outfits of matching material that my mother made. I am holding him, but because he cannot yet sit up on his own, he is lying sprawled in my arms, looking wide-eyed into my face. I am leaning over him with a very small closed mouth smile, and I am touching his cheek with my free hand. So the sense of failure has built, and the sense of loss, and the shame, and I get so mad at myself, blaming myself for each silence, each friend who doesn’t understand, or has given up. And as I pity myself, then blame myself, then hate myself, I also think, selfishly: Pray god you never have to know these angels of death and illness, because then, maybe, you might understand where I live. minx

Response:

((((((((((((((((minx))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((minx))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((minx))))))))))))))))) That story about your friend’s wedding really got to me.  How awful!  : I’m so so sorry you weren’t treated better by the people in your life.

you too honey! like tara said in another post, hugfest!!! ((angela)) ((angela)) minx

Response:

((((((((((((((((minx))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((minx))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((minx))))))))))))))))) That story about your friend’s wedding really got to me.  How awful!  :  I’m so so sorry you weren’t treated better by the people in your life.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aspirin is can be so addictive that its abuses are unable to stop taking it even when forced to undergo repeated surgery to repair the damage it causes!! Hirschowitz BI, Lanas A "Intractable upper gastrointestinal ulceration due to aspirin in patients who have undergone surgery for peptic ulcer." Gastroenterology 1998 May;114(5):883-92 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… ist_uids=9558275&dopt=Abstract See also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… ist_uids=7987619&dopt=Abstract In this study of 30 patients that underwent gastric surgery caused by aspirin abuse, 27 continued to abuse the drug and developed new ulceration, 16 required a second operation, 8 a third, 1 a fourth. 4 died. The authors’ conclusion: ::With continued aspirin abuse, recurrent ulceration is the rule, and ::complications, especially stenosis, are common. Surreptitious aspirin ::abuse, if discovered, is a clear contraindication to elective ulcer ::surgery, because aspirin-abuse ulceration is incurable by gastric surgery. YOu are telling me that aspirin is physiologically addictive? LOL HAHAHA this just undermines your overall credibility. Everybody, even the most stupid person, knows that aspirin is not physiologically addictive. This is a stupid conversation.

Really? Then why did 27 of 30 gastrointestinal surgery patients continue to abuse the aspirin that had caused them to need the initial surgery?? Why are between 75 and 150,000 Americans hospitalized each year because of the effects of aspirin abuse? Why is aspirin abuse now the leading cause of ulcers? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aspirin abuses continue to abuse even in the face of repeated surgery, even the likelihood of death. They meet one of the central criteria of addiction. One that benzos doesn’t. Benzo users, even benzo abusers,do not usually continue to abuse their drug in the threat of serious injury, repeated corrective surgery and/or death!!! Uh huh Here are a few more studies: Elkind AH "Drug abuse and headache." Med Clin North Am 1991 May;75(3):717-32 Parajua Pozo JL, Ballesteros Martinez E "Headache caused by analgesic abuse" Aten Primaria 1994 Jun 15;14(1):547-9 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… ist_uids=7918960&dopt=Abstract Gutnik SH, Willmott D, Ziebarth J "Gastrocolic fistula-secondary to aspirin abuse." S D J Med 1993 Oct;46(10):358-60 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… ist_uids=8256126&dopt=Abstract Kantachuvesiri S, Kaojarern S, Kitayaporn D, et al. "Risk factors between analgesic use and chronic nephropathy in Thailand." SE Asian J Trop Med Public Health 1996 Jun;27(2):350-5 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… ist_uids=9280001&dopt=Abstract See also: http://www.gastro.org/pain-rel2.html http://www.newswise.com//articles/1999/11/ASPRIN.UAB.html http://chiroforlife.com/HealthNews/May1999.shtml http://www.acg.gi.org/acg-dev/patientinfo/women/asprin.html Who gives a shit about your studies. You can find a study on anything. Doesnt mean anything. Bottom line is aspirin is not physiologically addictive.

Corrective gastrointestinal surgery of the type usually required to fix the damage of aspirin abuse is extremely invasive – the incisions are often large-similar to gutting a fish, have a high incidence of complications, especially if it was emergency surgery, and the recovery phase can be very humiliating – incontinence, putrid feces, lots of poking and prodding of sensitive areas, etc Yet, the number of patients that continue to abuse aspirin after the first surgery is high. If that isn’t a sign of addiction, then how do you explain this?  Its not as if other, less damaging, painkillers, both OTC and Rx aren’t readily available! In the study I’ve highlighted, 90% of the randomly selected patients continued to abuse aspirin after the first corrective surgery, 16 of them to the point they required surgery a second time. Thats over 50% of the initial group.   Half of the second surgery group required surgery a third time!!! And one liked aspirin so much he/she continued to blow holes in the stomach/intestine to the point a fourth operation was required.  You don’t see recidivist figures anything like that in detox centers!!!! If this isn’t addiction, then why are patients continuing to abuse aspirin?   Do they want to make the pharmaceutical companies even richer, and this is as good a way as any?   They think aspirin tastes really good-better than caviar? They’re bored? They are really, really stupid?  BTW-how many do you take every day? They have a suicidal protracted death wish? You get a lot of frequent flyer points with every aspirin pack you buy and it seems a shame to waste the contents? You cant think clearly its obvious.

And denial isn’t a river in Egypt!!! Ive got advice for ya. Go away.

Oh, I will, because work pressure demand it. But if you are any indication, its time this group was bought into the 21st century and given up to date fact, not the misinformation you are peddling. So I’ll definitely be back!! Eric

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part 2/3 The SSRI withdrawal you are describing is not from physiological withdrawal or addiction in the sense of cocaine or benzo or alcohol addiction. The SSRI withdrawal is due to the short half lives many of these drugs have. When these drugs exit your system when you go off them, some of them exit fast due to the short half lives. That equals PAIN! This is the mechanism for "SSRI withdrawal" nothing but a short half life.

Simply not true.  I suggest you do some reading about antidepressant/SSRI discontinuation syndrome. Heres a few reading suggestions. All were in a special supplement produced in J Clin Psychiatry, vol 58, supp 7, 1997 Shatzberg AF, et. al.: Serotonin reuptake inhibitor discontinuation syndrome: a hypothetical definition, 5-10.   Lejoyeux M, Ades J: Antidepressant discontinuation: a review of the literature, 11-16.   Haddad P: Newer antidepressants and the disconuation syndrome, 17-22.   Schatzberg AF, et. al.: Possible biological mechanisms of the serotonin reuptake inhibitor discontinuation syndrome, 23-27.   Young AH, Currie A: Physicians’ knowledge of antidepressant withdrawal effects: a survey, 28-30.   Kaplan EM: Antidepressant noncompliance as a factor in discontinuation syndrome, 31-36.   Rosenbaum JF, Zajecka J: Clinical management of antidepressant discontinuation, 37-40. See also: Rosenbaum JF, Fava M, Hoog SL, Ascroft RC, Krebs WB. "Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor discontinuation syndrome: a randomized clinical trial." Biol Psychiatry. 1998;44:77-87. Jarrett RB, Kraft D. "Prophylactic cognitive therapy for major depressive disorder." In Session: Psychotherapy in Practice. 1997;3:65-79. BTW1- Since 1990 a warning has been printed in the British National Formulary (their standard doctor/pharmacist drug reference) about withdrawal from antidepressants – :"Gastro-intestinal symptoms of nausea, vomiting, and anorexia, ::accompanied by headache, giddiness, ‘chills’, and insomnia, ::and sometimes by hypomania, panic-anxiety and extreme motor ::restlessness may occur if an antidepressant (particularly a MAOI) ::is stopped suddenly after regular administration for 8 weeks or more. ::Reduction in dosage should preferably be carried out over a period ::of about 4 weeks." British Medical Association and Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain. British National Formulary. London: BMA and Pharmaceutical Press, 1990-1999 The MAOI distinction was dropped a few years later, and the warning now applies to all AD classes. BTW2 – "discontinuation syndrome" is also the APAs preferred term for benzo withdrawal effects, as set out in their task force report (see below). Benzos by contrast are well documented as causing physiological addiction.

Not according to those that really understand the subject. Read the APAs "Task Force report on Benzodiazepine Dependence, Toxicity and Abuse", American Psychiatrist Assoc., 1992 For that matter go to their web site, or that of the ASAM and National Institute of Drug Addiction, and try to find one reference to benzodiazepines. And as per earlier, most addiction authorities consider that a drug must activate the dopamine pleasure/reward system in the Nucleus accumbens to qualify as an addictive drug. Not only don’t benzos do this, they actually reduce the ability of drugs like the amphetamines, cocaine and heroin to do so!  Poly drug users are actually unconsciously taking benzos to reduce or treat their addiction to amphetamines, cocaine, heroin etc. Xanax or Klonopin addiction are well documented and a person can even be admitted to a drug addiction recovery center for these addictions. Try to do that with SSRIs or Effexor withdrawal! They would laugh at you!

Only because they are as ignorant as you appear to be on the subject. Charles Medawar, an english researcher showed at far back as 1992, that withdrawal from, particularly SSRI, antidepressants produced more adverse incidence reports to the UK drug regulatory authority than all other drugs combined. Not just more than benzos, but ALL drugs. Medawar C "Social Audit on the safety of medicines. " International Journal of Risk and Safety in Medicine, 1992, updated 1994 OTOH, aspirin can be truly addictive in the medical sense, as the 12,000 Americans per year who die would it would verify if they could. A further 75-150,000 require hospitalization annually as a result. You are full of it. Aspirin is in no way addictive, not physiologically nor psychologically.

I suggest you do some research before writing about things you clearly know little about. Aspirin is can be so addictive that its abuses are unable to stop taking it even when forced to undergo repeated surgery to repair the damage it causes!! Hirschowitz BI, Lanas A "Intractable upper gastrointestinal ulceration due to aspirin in patients who have undergone surgery for peptic ulcer." Gastroenterology 1998 May;114(5):883-92 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… See also: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… In this study of 30 patients that underwent gastric surgery caused by aspirin abuse, 27 continued to abuse the drug and developed new ulceration, 16 required a second operation, 8 a third, 1 a fourth. 4 died. The authors’ conclusion: ::With continued aspirin abuse, recurrent ulceration is the rule, and ::complications, especially stenosis, are common. Surreptitious aspirin ::abuse, if discovered, is a clear contraindication to elective ulcer ::surgery, because aspirin-abuse ulceration is incurable by gastric surgery. Aspirin abuses continue to abuse even in the face of repeated surgery, even the likelihood of death. They meet one of the central criteria of addiction. One that benzos doesn’t. Benzo users, even benzo abusers, do not usually continue to abuse their drug in the threat of serious injury, repeated corrective surgery and/or death!!! Here are a few more studies: Elkind AH "Drug abuse and headache." Med Clin North Am 1991 May;75(3):717-32 Parajua Pozo JL, Ballesteros Martinez E "Headache caused by analgesic abuse" Aten Primaria 1994 Jun 15;14(1):547-9 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… Gutnik SH, Willmott D, Ziebarth J "Gastrocolic fistula-secondary to aspirin abuse." S D J Med 1993 Oct;46(10):358-60 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… Kantachuvesiri S, Kaojarern S, Kitayaporn D, et al. "Risk factors between analgesic use and chronic nephropathy in Thailand." SE Asian J Trop Med Public Health 1996 Jun;27(2):350-5 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… See also: http://www.gastro.org/pain-rel2.html http://www.newswise.com//articles/1999/11/ASPRIN.UAB.html http://chiroforlife.com/HealthNews/May1999.shtml http://www.acg.gi.org/acg-dev/patientinfo/women/asprin.html part 3/3 follows

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