Question:
Yeah, I’ve since revised my view after reading DaveW’s references. I don’t think Psoriasis is necessarily caused by systemic candida infection at all. *Localized*, perhaps, but its hard to know if its actually the cause–that old "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" thing. I could see candida (and other surface micros) perpetuating Psoriasis on the skin–perhaps acting as a trigger also for an immune system that is already made faulty.
Anybody know how much testing for skin fungal infections costs? I don’t, but if it’s cheap enough, and you’ve got long-lasting, treatment-resistant psoriasis, it might be worth the expense to get the possibility checked out. Again, insurance companies are starting to balk at paying for antifungals without test results showing they’re needed, so "trying" an antifungal may be less cost-effective than getting tested, depending on the prices involved. In my opinion, it’d be better to *know*, anyway, instead of guessing that because an antifungal led to a decrease in psoriasis, there must have been fungi in there (not always true, and the antifungal might not work the next time). – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/
Response:
Dear William, and most of what DaveW posted i concur with
<snip Yeah, I’ve since revised my view after reading DaveW’s references. I don’t think Psoriasis is necessarily caused by systemic candida infection at all. *Localized*, perhaps, but its hard to know if its actually the cause–that old "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" thing. I could see candida (and other surface micros) perpetuating Psoriasis on the skin–perhaps acting as a trigger also for an immune system that is already made faulty. William said; Personally, though I "only" have medically-induced seborrheic dermatitis (on my face, brought on by Retin-A, and perhaps exacerbated by various antibiotics precribed to me by different derms over the years), in addition to my topical anti-fungal treatments, Why did you use retin a in the first place? and why did you need the antibiotics…: ? for what?
My doctor at the time, a GP, prescribed it for *acne*–Retin-A combined with Panoxyl (benzoyl peroxide) cream. It totally messed up my face–turned it beet-red, made it flake and scale, took away elasticity, etc. The antibiotics came later with other doctors while I was in college, for acne, but also for whatever was wrong with my skin, which they couldn’t figure out even though I *told* them over and over how it got to be a red, flaky mess. (Some of the redness went away after I stopped the Retin-A, as did much of the flaking, but I had a major problem Sophomore year that started to look like eczema). If I’d known as a stupid high school kid what I do now about how to treat acne by adjusting diet, sleep, etc (naturally), I could have saved myself 12 years of a living Hell. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You then said: I will be adding a probiotic acidophilus supplement (in my case, I’m going to try Udo’s Gold) to balance out any imbalance of flora in my stomach and body (I’m also going to ad I use which ever is the cheapest of the flax oils myself…they all taste the same to me and i sorta like em now..after a few years of one tbls a day…i did try two for a while and didn’t see much diff….and i stop when i run out for a few weeks…and run back to the store for more…either barleans, spectrum or natures sunshine…i usually get the 12oz..as long as it is refrigerated it seems okay…i do try to consume within the 45 day-60 day time period
<snip I’m just going to use the Udo’s microflora for about a month. I don’t think I have a major imabalance in my gut or anything, but just to be on the safe side. I’m using Udo’s oil blend also to be on the safe side. I don’t think I’m getting the optimal amount of monunsaturated fats in my diet otherwise. Randall
My treatment so far using topical anti-fungals appears to be having an effect. My skin is getting smoother (incrementally, I’ll admit), some of the redness/irritation has faded, and it seems more pliable–stronger. I know it’s not just the moisturizing effect of the cream I use during the day because mositurizers in the past has had the opposite effect–my skin would scale more without it, which I would notice when washing–my skin doesn’t scale now when I wash. I know this is going to take months. My skin needs to regenerate properly–evenly, instead of at different rates in response to the candida, so I need to keep killing the candida with the topicals until my skin’s protective barrier is in place again (for the first time in 12 years) and able to do its job normally. My skin is also very oily, because it can’t keep the moisture in because of the missing barrier, so it pumps out more sebum (which leads to much of the acne); when my skin is repaired, my face should get much less oily. At any rate, I’ve gota plan, that, for *my* condition, looks sound. I kept trying to apply it for Psoriatics, because many of our symptoms look similar, but in the end they’re not the same thing. I don’t have the problems I have on my face anywhere else on my body. My immune system isn’t to blame–it’s the candida (as per my last derm’s diagnosis of seborrheic dermatitis). -Will
Response:
Dear William, you said: ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host of diseases that are actually symptoms of the infection itself.
and most of what DaveW posted i concur with….i did get my fecal matter examined and was miffed that i only had moderate levels of candida…(12 yrs ago) when the issue was going good…Dr Crooks (funny huh- crook) Book "The Yeast Connection" was published in 1983..so i suppose a fair amount of peer review had already began…after reading the book…i was so sure that my Natural groovy "i can heal anything" type doctor would find all this yeast and wipe it all out with a little antibiotics…that i was sure that a cure was around the corner..the heck with my derm…this natural guy (alt) was the ticket…….oh well….the rest is history…on that one….good posts DaveW…what a asset you are…..i love it…now if we could spread some fairy dust around and magically change some of them thru the pleomorhic route to less obnoxious contributers…er…a maggot becomes a fly..? hmmm’…worm becomes a butterfly….(better)..oh well the ploymorhics in this ng will be more help then they know…..as devils advocate or angels appologist…. William said; If you do a search of the ‘Net for candida albicans infections (I tried "candida" and "fibromyalgia" together and got a slew of info and lists of interconnected symptoms), you’ll understand what I mean whe I say tha
why not go and do a search on Chlamydia as we all pop out of the womb and have a good chance of getting that…who knows maybe there is a link there…as there is a link with heart disease to Chlamydia pneumoniae from the mouth (focal point?) and then systemic? So, maybe the little critters do change from a loving little bacteria into the crawling eye….for p people….but not likely….i guess as there are loads of bugs…more then howard hughes suspected i am sure….oh those filthy little germs…..But, as in the latest rage, as mentioned previous….there is a entrance point for CJDnv thru tonsilitis..the scientist are now hypothesizing..and with the Doc down in Oz who consummed the Helio Bacterpylori and then used antibiotics to cure his ulcers….and thus proved the agent of disease and cure….we are left with…a lot of us got strep…and whammo developed p….now as to why everyone doesn’t get p that has strep is the 64K question….you can follow all the nostrums in the alt/natural world and still not beat it… you said: Personally, though I "only" have medically-induced seborrheic dermatitis (on my face, brought on by Retin-A, and perhaps exacerbated by various antibiotics precribed to me by different derms over the years), in addition to my topical anti-fungal treatments,
Why did you use retin a in the first place? and why did you need the antibiotics…: ? for what? You then said: I will be adding a probiotic acidophilus supplement (in my case, I’m going to try Udo’s Gold) to balance out any imbalance of flora in my stomach and body (I’m also going to ad
I use which ever is the cheapest of the flax oils myself…they all taste the same to me and i sorta like em now..after a few years of one tbls a day…i did try two for a while and didn’t see much diff….and i stop when i run out for a few weeks…and run back to the store for more…either barleans, spectrum or natures sunshine…i usually get the 12oz..as long as it is refrigerated it seems okay…i do try to consume within the 45 day-60 day time period..i suppose that some BHT could be added to it…Durk Pearson trick from the book Life Extension….( and he ate a gram or two of BHT for herpes virus as the BHT removes the coat from the virus…try that one…i dare ya…) as to probiotics, you can take a proflora whey powder (carbo not protein) to grow the good flora in your large intestine…or Jerusalem Artichoke works to…. avoid all meat and alcohol for at least a month or two…to regrow or repopulate good flora..and once you do the good flora will pick up the slack and you won’t need to take a B vit supplement….as they will provide them….if you want more info on this route i will be glad to help….contact me off list Will…. And good luck… Randall
Response:
Well $hit, I’m all out of ideas! I think maybe I was trying too hard to link candida to psorasis because it seems to be the ongoing problem for me (with the s.dermatitis). I’d like to point out just one question I have about your argument, however–not that it makes a real difference to the conclusion for psoriatics. You say: " The above is almost definitely untrue. The body fights infection by throwing more *immune* cells at it, not by growing more skin. The reason the skin is growing so much is that the "wound healing" routine in psoriatic skin is "turned on," for a basic explanation. If your hypothesis, above, were true, than the scaling we experience would be common for *any* skin infection, and it’s simply not. We’d probably also see psoriasis in other animals. It doesn’t exist, naturally, for anyone but us humans."
My question is that, the body’s immune system fights infections and heals wounds through different mechanisms, but is it possible for the body to switch to a different mechanism if the first it tries isn’t working? What I mean is, if your body sensed something like candida or whatever in your skin, and threw some antibodies, etc, at it, and that didn”t stop it, might it then turn on the "wound healing" component as a last resort? I mean, the body knows what the body knows; wound healing involves an increased rate of skin cell turnover, among other things–if it didn’t, then wounds would be limited to healing after at least about 28 days, which is considered the "normal" skin turnover rate. You get a wound, it heals, the scab falls off. The body senses a problem with the skin in whatever area and speeds up its renewal/replacement process. Now, for me, it would seem to make sense, because my problem has always been in the same locale, and my derm diagnosed my condition as being caused/related to candida. My body has thus treated the skin in the affected area as an ongoing wound because the skin’s protective layer was originally stripped away by the topical meds, which in turn allowed the candida to penetrate deeper into the skin than it’s supposed to. Just how far into the skin can antibodies actually reach? As far as the blood will carry it, right? Except there are no blood vessels in the outer (dead) layers of skin. Which of course would beg the question of how the body knows there’s an infectious organisms there, but the organism must consistently penetrate deep enough for the body to sense it. Therefore, antibodies would only clear an infection as far as the skin’s natural protective layer–that layer, supposedly, being a barrier to bacteria and fungi. My barrier is effectively gone, so my body is sensing the candida, and not being able to stop it with antibodies alone, turns on the "wound healing" process as another line of defense. Except that because this wound healing is going on at different rates throughout the affected skin, the protective layer never gets re-built because the layers are all askew instead of nice and even (the layer cake pounded by a hammer analogy). So, by killing the candida myself (with topicals)so that my body won’t sense the infection, it *should* turn off this wound-healing process of sped-up skin renewal, which would allow for the next layers of skin to develop evenly (and the older ones to eventually shed), thus restoring the protective barrier. Lotta "ifs", I know. I can’t think of anything else but the diagnosed candida that would be causing this "wound healing" mechanism in my own skin. For psoriatics, I have a guess about why some of the scaling shows up symetrically. Are the symetrical areas parts of your body that might be dry anyway? I mean, lots of people’s elbows get dry. If that lack of moisture were affecting the integrity of the skin–the elasticity, protective barrier, etc, and enough irritation were sensed, might the body then not try to "heal" it? Maybe with psoriatics the body is over-reacting to this dry skin? Just a theory. Might explain why it can be symetrical. –Will
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …Again, from what I’ve learned so far, psoriasis appears to be the body’s immune system reacting to something in the skin. That’s too simplified a view, though. Strep *throat* often triggers psoriasis, in those people with the correct genetic makeup (don’t forget that part). The skin tries to rid itself of over-colonizing microorganisms by speeding up its renewal rate, thus the flaking and scaling, and the pink/red lesions or scales that are skin cells that are still alive (and tender). The skin needs to do this because the invading microorganisms *could* eventually reach the bloodstream the farther into the skin they’re able to penetrate. The body is making the skin "push back" the wave of microorganisms to keep that from happening. The above is almost definitely untrue. The body fights infection by throwing more *immune* cells at it, not by growing more skin. The reason the skin is growing so much is that the "wound healing" routine in psoriatic skin is "turned on," for a basic explanation. If your hypothesis, above, were true, than the scaling we experience would be common for *any* skin infection, and it’s simply not. We’d probably also see psoriasis in other animals. It doesn’t exist, naturally, for anyone but us humans. My guess (educated, yes, but still just my guess) is that the psoriatic scaling appears in different parts of the body as the body reacts to any shift in micro-flora population. Now, this could be because the microorganisms really are over-colonizing (like with me), or because the body’s immune system is out of whack and over-reacting to everything. If either, it’d have to be more of the latter, since, as Graham has pointed out, psoriasis is often symmetrical. I don’t see how Candida, for example, could possibly have "guessed" to infect both my elbows, preferentially, first, before moving onto my scalp, and then my lower shins – and affected *nothing* in between. … There are so many diseases and conditions that have been linked to candida infections that, unless one does some major testing and statistical analysis, there’s no way to know (or correllate) for sure… That’s actually one of the problems of the Candida hypothesis: too much going on. Turn the claims around, and the implication is that by getting rid of Candida, a person can successfully rid themselves of all these horrible diseases. There’s no such thing as a panacea, yet, which brings into question the entire theory, since the Candida advocates suggest strongly that anti-Candida therapies *are* panaceas. … What I’m wondering is if an imbalance of candida in the gut could lead to an over-reactive generalized immune response that would affect the skin like psoriatics experience, or if the candida would have to be in one’s blood and/or in the muscles?… Again, see "strep throat and psoriasis." The hypothesis reads, basically: *If* a microorganism, due to its particular antigens, can induce psoriasis, there’s only a need for the immune system to be *presented* with that antigen for the skin symptoms to develop. Doesn’t matter *where* the antigen shows up, since the theory is that the skin is presenting *similar* proteins that the immune system "reads" as the *same* antigens, and so mounts a response wherever those proteins are found. Don’t assume that the immune cells never go anywhere. As a matter of routine, they move about everwhere in the body, "patrolling" if you will (except for a very few special locations). An immune cell which "meets" strep in the tonsils could easily be among those which being a psoriatic plaque on a knee. … What mainstream medical science seems only half-aware of right now is that the body is a "system". Everything interconnects. Every drug we put on or into our bodies has the potential to throw this system out of whack. Mainstream medicine actually knows this quite well. This is one of the reasons for clinical trials of drugs – attempting to ensure the drugs don’t often do things that are unexpected or fatal. But, since everybody is different, unexpected things happen all the time, so minimization, not elimination, of the risks is the only option. We, as humans, are not the only organism walking around in our shoes. We are actually symbiotic with a number of bacteria (and yes, even fungi). Killing off all the bacteria and fungi would result in us getting quite sick. They’re necessary for proper digestion, as well as defense against more harmful bacteria and fungi… I don’t believe this very much, especially considering those patients who receive massive doses of broad-spectrum antibiotics in response to sepsis or other drastic infections. Yes, there exist bacteria which manufacter some B-vitamins for us in our guts (and which infants lack at birth), but the theory you propose above would have the "Boy in the Bubble" dying *because* he was in the Bubble. From another post: I’ll freely admit I couldn’t find anything on the NIH or CDC or Health Canada sites, but then it doesn’t suprise me because they seem to be more drug-oriented and "mainstream" rather than addressing the body’s systemic issues. I found the following on the CDC Web site in about 30 seconds, going to the "Health Topics A to Z" section: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/candidiasis_t.htm Appears to claim that infections of Candida serious enough to present symptoms (as listed) have an incidence of 8 in 100,000 of the general population. That’s 0.008%. Compared to psoriasis’ 2%. Here’s some more light reading for you: "…There
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Response:
Hi Everyone, In the past I have asked my Dr. and my rheumatologist if it were possible that I had a systemic yeast infection, they both said that if I did that I would be so sick I’d be in a hospital, neither took me seriously. I do have Candida,compromised by being on anti-biotics for years and being diabetic. I’m seeing my Derm tomorrow after being fairly clear for quite awhile. I"m now covered with guttate P. I"m wondering if an overgrowth of yeast could be followed by P? That’s one of the ? I’ll be asking tom. Has anyone else had any experience with this? I also have PA and Fibromyaglia/CFIDS Gentle Hugs to all, Shirley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host of diseases that are actually symptoms of the infection itself. I bring this up because a lot of you with psoriasis seem to have other ailments as well, like arthritis, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, sleeplessness, and the like. Apparently, these, as well as psoriasis, eczema, etc, are also symptoms of candida infections. If you do a search of the ‘Net for candida albicans infections (I tried "candida" and "fibromyalgia" together and got a slew of info and lists of interconnected symptoms), you’ll understand what I mean whe I say that many of you may in fact be suffering from systemic candida infections. Do a search for "antifungal" as well–it turned up some pretty interesting stuff, including causes of fungal infections, symptoms, and treatments. FYI, I found Google.com to be the best for this kind of search, but use whatever you like… Personally, though I "only" have medically-induced seborrheic dermatitis (on my face, brought on by Retin-A, and perhaps exacerbated by various antibiotics precribed to me by different derms over the years), in addition to my topical anti-fungal treatments, I will be adding a probiotic acidophilus supplement (in my case, I’m going to try Udo’s Gold) to balance out any imbalance of flora in my stomach and body (I’m also going to add Udo’s Gold Blend of monounsaturated oils, but that’s for my overall health, as is the multivitamin and b-complex I’ll also be adding). For anyone who wants to try the same kind of regimine, use whatever brands you’re most comfortable with. I really believe though that the systemic approach (internal and external), kept up for a number of months, is going to work for me, and I truly hope for anyone else who tries it too. –Will
Response:
…Again, from what I’ve learned so far, psoriasis appears to be the body’s immune system reacting to something in the skin.
That’s too simplified a view, though. Strep *throat* often triggers psoriasis, in those people with the correct genetic makeup (don’t forget that part). The skin tries to rid itself of over-colonizing microorganisms by speeding up its renewal rate, thus the flaking and scaling, and the pink/red lesions or scales that are skin cells that are still alive (and tender). The skin needs to do this because the invading microorganisms *could* eventually reach the bloodstream the farther into the skin they’re able to penetrate. The body is making the skin "push back" the wave of microorganisms to keep that from happening.
The above is almost definitely untrue. The body fights infection by throwing more *immune* cells at it, not by growing more skin. The reason the skin is growing so much is that the "wound healing" routine in psoriatic skin is "turned on," for a basic explanation. If your hypothesis, above, were true, than the scaling we experience would be common for *any* skin infection, and it’s simply not. We’d probably also see psoriasis in other animals. It doesn’t exist, naturally, for anyone but us humans. My guess (educated, yes, but still just my guess) is that the psoriatic scaling appears in different parts of the body as the body reacts to any shift in micro-flora population. Now, this could be because the microorganisms really are over-colonizing (like with me), or because the body’s immune system is out of whack and over-reacting to everything.
If either, it’d have to be more of the latter, since, as Graham has pointed out, psoriasis is often symmetrical. I don’t see how Candida, for example, could possibly have "guessed" to infect both my elbows, preferentially, first, before moving onto my scalp, and then my lower shins – and affected *nothing* in between. … There are so many diseases and conditions that have been linked to candida infections that, unless one does some major testing and statistical analysis, there’s no way to know (or correllate) for sure…
That’s actually one of the problems of the Candida hypothesis: too much going on. Turn the claims around, and the implication is that by getting rid of Candida, a person can successfully rid themselves of all these horrible diseases. There’s no such thing as a panacea, yet, which brings into question the entire theory, since the Candida advocates suggest strongly that anti-Candida therapies *are* panaceas. … What I’m wondering is if an imbalance of candida in the gut could lead to an over-reactive generalized immune response that would affect the skin like psoriatics experience, or if the candida would have to be in one’s blood and/or in the muscles?…
Again, see "strep throat and psoriasis." The hypothesis reads, basically: *If* a microorganism, due to its particular antigens, can induce psoriasis, there’s only a need for the immune system to be *presented* with that antigen for the skin symptoms to develop. Doesn’t matter *where* the antigen shows up, since the theory is that the skin is presenting *similar* proteins that the immune system "reads" as the *same* antigens, and so mounts a response wherever those proteins are found. Don’t assume that the immune cells never go anywhere. As a matter of routine, they move about everwhere in the body, "patrolling" if you will (except for a very few special locations). An immune cell which "meets" strep in the tonsils could easily be among those which being a psoriatic plaque on a knee. … What mainstream medical science seems only half-aware of right now is that the body is a "system". Everything interconnects. Every drug we put on or into our bodies has the potential to throw this system out of whack.
Mainstream medicine actually knows this quite well. This is one of the reasons for clinical trials of drugs – attempting to ensure the drugs don’t often do things that are unexpected or fatal. But, since everybody is different, unexpected things happen all the time, so minimization, not elimination, of the risks is the only option. We, as humans, are not the only organism walking around in our shoes. We are actually symbiotic with a number of bacteria (and yes, even fungi). Killing off all the bacteria and fungi would result in us getting quite sick. They’re necessary for proper digestion, as well as defense against more harmful bacteria and fungi…
I don’t believe this very much, especially considering those patients who receive massive doses of broad-spectrum antibiotics in response to sepsis or other drastic infections. Yes, there exist bacteria which manufacter some B-vitamins for us in our guts (and which infants lack at birth), but the theory you propose above would have the "Boy in the Bubble" dying *because* he was in the Bubble. From another post: I’ll freely admit I couldn’t find anything on the NIH or CDC or Health Canada sites, but then it doesn’t suprise me because they seem to be more drug-oriented and "mainstream" rather than addressing the body’s systemic issues.
I found the following on the CDC Web site in about 30 seconds, going to the "Health Topics A to Z" section: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/candidiasis_t.htm Appears to claim that infections of Candida serious enough to present symptoms (as listed) have an incidence of 8 in 100,000 of the general population. That’s 0.008%. Compared to psoriasis’ 2%. Here’s some more light reading for you: "…There were no differences in the colonization with Candida albicans and in the level of Candida antibody titres between [psoriasis] patients and a healthy control group…" - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=20060304 Immune cells of psoriatics respond significantly more to group A strep than to C. albicans. The Candida response, apparently, was no different between psoriatics and controls. - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=98114977 "…Candida infections of the skin were seen more often in psoriasis patients compared to controls. Differentiating between Type I (early onset) and Type II (late onset) psoriasis only Type I psoriasis patients presented with decreased dermatophyte infections and increased Candida colonization of the intestinum. However, patients with Type II psoriasis demonstrated an increased rate of candidosis cutis and candidosis oris as compared to controls. . . Our results show that the influence of fungal infections on the two skin diseases investigated is not as strong as often considered." - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=98037225 "…None of the skin [T-cell lines] responded to … Candida albicans…" - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=97247320 One of the two studies I mentioned says: "…In addition, patients with erysipelas, acne, psoriasis, and atopic dermatitis showed a [mucocutaneous] candidosis significantly more often ([relative risk] between 1.3 and 1.6)…" - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=95356786 "The microflora of 297 psoriasis patients was extensively examined… Associated organisms thought to provoke a psoriatic attack were as follows: streptococcal groups A, B, C, D, F, G, S viridans, S pneumoniae; Klebsiella pneumoniae, oxytoca; Escherichia coli; Enterobacter cloacae, E aerogenes, E agglomerans; Proteus mirabilis, P vulgaris; Citrobacter freundii, C diversus; Morganella morganii; Pseudomonas aeruginosa, P maltiphilia, P putida; Serratia marcescens; Acinetobacter calbio aceticus, A luoffi; Flavobacterium specie; CDC groups Ve-1, Ve-2, E-o2; Bacillus subtilis, cereus; Staphylococcus aureus; Candida albicans, C parapsilosis; Torulopsis, glabrata; Rhodotorula and dermatophytes. One or more antistreptococal enzyme tests was positive in 50% of patients…" - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=91137055 "Recent reports have suggested a role of Candida colonization of gut in psoriatic patients. In this study, intestinal yeasts and anti- candida immune response were investigated in 39 patients with psoriasis vulgaris. Anti-candida antibodies were determined by indirect haemagglutination (IHAT) and indirect immunofluorescence (IFAT) tests. Stool specimens showed 93pc C. albicans colonization but none of the patients showed clinical candidiasis. Four patients showed an increased IHAT titer and six patients showed an increased IFAT titer, the others were all in normal limits. Anti-Candida antibody titers did not correlate with PASI (Psoriasis area and severity index) scores." - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=91129925 "…Yeasts were detected in 68% of the [343] psoriatics … but in only 54% of the controls (n = 50). Qualitative analysis revealed a predominance of Candida albicans… Germ cell concentration of 10(4) cells per ml and above were measured in 38% of the psoriatics … but in only 22% of the test subjects with healthy skin. There was no correlation between the concentration levels of yeasts in the faeces and the extent of psoriasis or atopic dermatitis." - http://www.pinch.com/skinny?medline=90279712 Allow me to clarify more my ‘take’ on Candida and psoriasis: Yes, Candida *can* trigger psoriasis, much like strep can. Is it responsible for a majority of psoriasis cases? I doubt it. Candida can also be a "secondary" infection of psoriasis plaques, making them more difficult to treat, simply because the infection will keep the immune system more ‘vigilant’ in those areas. There are tests which can be done, Candida doesn’t "hide" well. Is there much reason to believe that an anti-Candida therapy will result in the elimination of psoriasis? As far as the evidence I’ve
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Response:
Dear William, Sorry for typos and misspells.. As to strep and p…..and CJD- new variant…it is the new plague, at least if you believe the hysterical press…. it is not strep…..i am wrong again…it is tonsilitis….that is now being looked at for nvCJD as a common factor, among the infected and deceased….demo. check- how many here had tonsilitis or strep right before they first developed p? I once had strep 15 yrears into my p and can’t remember if it flared me….i was pretty bad at the time as i recall….late 20’s at the time….went water skiing and bingo three days of sore throats…. I said: ds me of the problems coming on line with nvCJD…and only the people with streph throat are the ones getting it…..a
change strep to tonsilitis….above…… If anyone wants a copy of this post…let me know….its from a microbiologist and is very interresting….or i can post if here…. As to the relevance ….just think…as if all the other crap O theorys don’t explain P now we have prions to deal with….what if….we are infected with prions and it manifests as p? now that should scramble your noggins….it does mine….time to go outside for some vit. D (sunshine) …todays info….a normal caucasian needs only 3-4 minutes a day 3-4 times a week…three quarters of the year…to get all the vit.D he needs to avoid dairy enriched milk (D)….I wonder how much p sufferers need? And this is for a guy with short sleeves and pants on…..bare arms and face only….vit D also in cod liver oil…anyone try that one….? Randall
Response:
Dear Wialliam, you said……and Dave (congrats for coming surprise….i loved that moment when they plooped out….all gooeey and all…i cut the cord..and washed em….and have it all on tape…that was over 20 and 18 yrs ago…) I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host o
its more or less a Rube Goldberg machine on steroids…..one candida has 70+ endotoxins…thats some excretions…..poop….now go find out which one causes the tnf (tumour necrosis factor- to go off ratio….and why is there no angiogenisis as in cancer?)….this reminds me of the problems coming on line with nvCJD…and only the people with streph throat are the ones getting it…..as there needs to be an entrance point for the prions? and if its so prevalent why aren’t there more cases…..which brings me back to p as streph is a focal point ……for many as a precursor…..more curious sh*t and P…..good luck…with your googling…gotta go…..maybe i’ll do some searches and repost em tomorrow….. Randall
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Here are some pertinent links. I’ll freely admit I couldn’t find anything on the NIH or CDC or Health Canada sites, but then it doesn’t suprise me because they seem to be more drug-oriented and "mainstream" rather than addressing the body’s systemic issues. Anyway, take the following information as you will. Some of these sites were product-oriented, some weren’t. I tried to weed out the obvious product-pushers. http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/forum/GeneralNeurologyF/3.7.982.11PM… POSSIBILITY (excerpt from "The Yeast Connection") http://cassia.org/candida.htm http://cassia.org/CanDiscussion.htm (talks about candida infection arising after antibiotic treatment for Lyme, but the discussion is relevant) http://www.healthwell.com/delicious-online/D_backs/Nov_97/natheal.cfm http://www.chetday.com/candida.html (he does sell books) http://www.infosky.net/~alexmi/candida.htm#10 (a candida FAQ…) http://www.sheilas.com/newsletters/candida.html And here’s that article from Quackwatch, which I read through: http://www.familyinternet.com/quackwatch/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cand… l It certainly seems possible that candida overgrowth was being attributed far too often to various disorders without direct evidence. I’d like to point out, however, that one has only to order the specific laboratory tests to see for sure whether they have a candida problem. I would rather have the tests done than answer the questionaire in Dr. Crook’s book if I wanted to know for sure. Dr. Crook seems to have been onto the right idea, but he ran with the idea a little bit too far. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, however, as the Quackwatch article wants to. Candida can definitely be a problem, even in people who are not on immunosuppressants. I would also like to point out that just because the mainstream medical community has doubts about the role of candida in various diseases and disorders, we’re talking about the same medical community that approved the drugs I used on my face for acne that ended up inflicting my condition on me. I would like to emphasize to everyone here that *you should go by your own observations* of what’s wrong and what works for you. I had a dermatologist who diagnosed me with seborrheic dermatitis–something that 5 preceeding doctors had totally missed and misdiagnosed! My condition, as it was explained to me, arises out of an overgrowth of yeast (my derm thought this was in part related to testosterone levels, as he was discounting the effect of the original topical drugs on my face–my face being the ONLY place I have this condition). He prescribed oral Diflucan which didn’t fix the problem (he was going to prescribe a topical at first, but at the time I’d had trouble with topicals in the past and didn’t want to chance it; now that I know what I know, I can use the topicals with no problem). I have observed my diet for 12 years, and I know exactly which foods affect my skin. Sugar, as is known, feeds the yeast, and whenever I eat it I get a break-out because of the yeast proliferating (and clogging my pores) from the influx of glucose. These are things I have observed myself, backed up by known scientific fact (i.e., what yeast is, what it feeds on, etc). Dairy also feeds yeast because of the milk sugar. Fruit can feed it, though the fruit sugar doesn’t convert to glucose completely, as some of it remains as fructose (it’s about 50-50) upon entering the bloodstream, so the effect isn’t quite as dramatic as cane sugar. What it all comes down to is this: yeast overgrowth in the gut can be fixed without the use of drugs. There are plenty of over-the-counter supplements–and foods–that can stabilize microflora safely and effectively (given enough time, which is usually a few months). The cost is minimal. The potential reward–your health–is invaluable. I can’t say for sure that candida overgrowth causes psoriasis, though it at least seems to be true in reverse with the high number of psoriasis patients showing increased candida levels. I happen to know for a fact that it’s the problem in my case. And my symptoms happen to mirror very closely the symptoms of psoriatics. As I’ve said before, I’ll be continuing my own course of self-treatment over the next several months and will post here whatever results I attain. –Will – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host of diseases that are actually symptoms of the infection itself. Unfortunately, a lot of the stuff on the ‘Net about Candida ‘overgrowths’ appears to be quackery. There exist doctors who make a living by diagnosing Candida infections where none exist, based on nothing but symptoms, and claiming that no "test" can make a proper daignosis. Which is quite strange since such tests exist. I definitely saw Web sites that appeared to be geared toward only selling some product or other to remedy Candida infections. I also saw what appeared to be genuine "news" sites, as in medical databases, where no product line was advocated or linked to, which also had much information on the Candida problem. I would definitely advise anyone else looking into this to consider that, with many other diseases out there, there are definitely quacks who latch onto a few bits of information about a particular disease and then use that info as evidence of why their product should help you. There definitely *are* blood tests available for Candida, but those would only be of use where the infection has actually gotten into the bloodstream. Stool tests might be helpful to show if the flora in the gut is imbalanced toward Candida overgrowth, but that won’t diagnose a problem that is limited to a person’s skin… It’s gotten to the point where more and more insurance companies *refuse* to pay for antifungal medications without also seeing Candida-test data which supports the claim of fungal infection. As with the tests I pointed out above, one would definitely want a whole battery of tests done to be sure their bases are covered. One test won’t necessarily indicate an infection. Quackwatch calls Candidiasis a "Fad Diagnosis": http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html One of the most interesting points in the Quackwatch article is that a report from Loyola concluded that "the advice of yeast connection [the book by Dr. Crook] advocates may be inappropriate even for illnesses in which Candida is implicated." Again, one of those examples where a particular doctor or writer got hold of some pertinent information about a disease and then made a bunch of "logical" conclusions as to what would help. Not much different from the quacky Websites except that this person managed to get published. Hell, Atkins managed to get HIS diet book published, but I wouldn’t recommend it as a way of eating to anyone from this planet. It doesn’t mean that the underlying problem doesn’t exist, however. Don’t let the quacks alone decide for you whether a candida infection truly could exist or not where none is necessarily originally suspected. How does Candida relate to psoriasis? I’ve seen exactly two studies which give fair evidence of some sort of connection. These reports said, basically, that psoriatics are 30-60% more likely than the general public to suffer from yeast "overgrowths" (at levels defined by the researchers, in terms of *stool* populations). In other words, if 10% of the population have active Candida infections, then 13-16% of psoriatics probably will, too. I think a skin test, perhaps a biposy, would be more revealing than a stool sample. Although I will admit that psoriatics perhaps have more of a systemic problem than someone like myself with localized seborrheic dermatitis. It appears that candida can infect a person in three ways, singly and in any combination of: overgrowth in the skin, overgrowth in the gut, and infection in the blood. From what I’ve read, the first two are much more likely than the third, and the third can be extremely life-threatening (more common in patients taking immunosuppressants, suffering from HIV, etc) in some cases, and can also lead to a host of different symptoms, like fibromyalgia, arthritis, chronic fatigue, and so on. Does this mean that the psoriasis in that 13-16% is caused by Candida? Nope. Nobody knows. Does it mean that the psoriasis simply "allows" more Candida infections? Again, nobody knows. A clue, though, exists in the opening paragraphs of the Quackwatch article. Seems that people on immunosuppressants get more infections than others. Does the "extra" percentage of psoriatics with Candida infections equate to the percentage of psoriatics on immunosuppressive therapy? I don’t know. Again, from what I’ve learned so far, psoriasis appears to be the body’s immune system reacting to something in the skin. The skin tries to rid itself of over-colonizing microorganisms by speeding up its renewal rate, thus the flaking and scaling, and the pink/red lesions or scales that are skin cells that are still alive (and tender). The skin needs to do this because the invading microorganisms *could* eventually reach the bloodstream the farther into the skin they’re able to penetrate. The body is making the skin "push back" the wave of microorganisms to keep that from happening. My guess (educated, yes, but still just my guess) is
… read more »
Response:
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host of diseases that are actually symptoms of the infection itself. Unfortunately, a lot of the stuff on the ‘Net about Candida ‘overgrowths’ appears to be quackery. There exist doctors who make a living by diagnosing Candida infections where none exist, based on nothing but symptoms, and claiming that no "test" can make a proper daignosis. Which is quite strange since such tests exist.
I definitely saw Web sites that appeared to be geared toward only selling some product or other to remedy Candida infections. I also saw what appeared to be genuine "news" sites, as in medical databases, where no product line was advocated or linked to, which also had much information on the Candida problem. I would definitely advise anyone else looking into this to consider that, with many other diseases out there, there are definitely quacks who latch onto a few bits of information about a particular disease and then use that info as evidence of why their product should help you. There definitely *are* blood tests available for Candida, but those would only be of use where the infection has actually gotten into the bloodstream. Stool tests might be helpful to show if the flora in the gut is imbalanced toward Candida overgrowth, but that won’t diagnose a problem that is limited to a person’s skin… It’s gotten to the point where more and more insurance companies *refuse* to pay for antifungal medications without also seeing Candida-test data which supports the claim of fungal infection.
As with the tests I pointed out above, one would definitely want a whole battery of tests done to be sure their bases are covered. One test won’t necessarily indicate an infection. Quackwatch calls Candidiasis a "Fad Diagnosis": http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html One of the most interesting points in the Quackwatch article is that a report from Loyola concluded that "the advice of yeast connection [the book by Dr. Crook] advocates may be inappropriate even for illnesses in which Candida is implicated."
Again, one of those examples where a particular doctor or writer got hold of some pertinent information about a disease and then made a bunch of "logical" conclusions as to what would help. Not much different from the quacky Websites except that this person managed to get published. Hell, Atkins managed to get HIS diet book published, but I wouldn’t recommend it as a way of eating to anyone from this planet. It doesn’t mean that the underlying problem doesn’t exist, however. Don’t let the quacks alone decide for you whether a candida infection truly could exist or not where none is necessarily originally suspected. How does Candida relate to psoriasis? I’ve seen exactly two studies which give fair evidence of some sort of connection. These reports said, basically, that psoriatics are 30-60% more likely than the general public to suffer from yeast "overgrowths" (at levels defined by the researchers, in terms of *stool* populations). In other words, if 10% of the population have active Candida infections, then 13-16% of psoriatics probably will, too.
I think a skin test, perhaps a biposy, would be more revealing than a stool sample. Although I will admit that psoriatics perhaps have more of a systemic problem than someone like myself with localized seborrheic dermatitis. It appears that candida can infect a person in three ways, singly and in any combination of: overgrowth in the skin, overgrowth in the gut, and infection in the blood. From what I’ve read, the first two are much more likely than the third, and the third can be extremely life-threatening (more common in patients taking immunosuppressants, suffering from HIV, etc) in some cases, and can also lead to a host of different symptoms, like fibromyalgia, arthritis, chronic fatigue, and so on. Does this mean that the psoriasis in that 13-16% is caused by Candida? Nope. Nobody knows. Does it mean that the psoriasis simply "allows" more Candida infections? Again, nobody knows. A clue, though, exists in the opening paragraphs of the Quackwatch article. Seems that people on immunosuppressants get more infections than others. Does the "extra" percentage of psoriatics with Candida infections equate to the percentage of psoriatics on immunosuppressive therapy? I don’t know.
Again, from what I’ve learned so far, psoriasis appears to be the body’s immune system reacting to something in the skin. The skin tries to rid itself of over-colonizing microorganisms by speeding up its renewal rate, thus the flaking and scaling, and the pink/red lesions or scales that are skin cells that are still alive (and tender). The skin needs to do this because the invading microorganisms *could* eventually reach the bloodstream the farther into the skin they’re able to penetrate. The body is making the skin "push back" the wave of microorganisms to keep that from happening. My guess (educated, yes, but still just my guess) is that the psoriatic scaling appears in different parts of the body as the body reacts to any shift in micro-flora population. Now, this could be because the microorganisms really are over-colonizing (like with me), or because the body’s immune system is out of whack and over-reacting to everything. And the main reason I don’t know is that I don’t know what percentage of the general population have Candida troubles. The abstracts I’ve read do not have that data. No information I’ve ever seen has that data. That, Will, might be a good starting place for you and others interested in this idea: find a *reliable* source for Candida-infection data (but keep in mind that nearly 100% of the population has *some* Candida, it’s only when it gets out of hand that it supposedly becomes a problem). Anyone who claims 1/3rd or more is probably yanking your chain.
Anyone who claims any set percentage at this point is only guessing. There are so many diseases and conditions that have been linked to candida infections that, unless one does some major testing and statistical analysis, there’s no way to know (or correllate) for sure. I’m thinking that the problem is more common than is suspected. Symptoms vary because the immune system can respond in any number of ways to a systemic infection. When it’s just in the skin, it’s more obvious–the symptoms are consistent and observable. Changes in diet that shouldn’t affect healthy skin create major changes in candida-infected skin (this I know from personal observation, as I’m sure others do). What I’m wondering is if an imbalance of candida in the gut could lead to an over-reactive generalized immune response that would affect the skin like psoriatics experience, or if the candida would have to be in one’s blood and/or in the muscles? For example, with my face, I know its localized and apparently not in the blood, simply because I’m affected in the exact areas and patterns in which I used the original (12 years ago) Retin-A/Panoxyl combo that thinned out my skin, turned it red, made it scale, and allowed the candida to overgrow. I get hives–only on my face, nowhere else, and for no apparent reason. ANY allergen will set them off. I take Claritin to block the histimine reaction, and that works. This, to me, is obvious evidence that my immune system is already over-reacting to localized activity on my face. There is such an over-whelming immune response already present that it reacts immediately to anything. Hell, cuts and scratches on my face heal much faster than anywhere else on my body! Anyway, though it seems obvious to me, with a disease like psoriasis, it’s definitely harder to pin down. As you suggest I will look for a totally reliable source on candida-related illness. On the other hand, Will, your particular disease has quite a bit of evidence pointing towards M. furfur and other fungi as causative factors. Candida may well have a much greater role in seborrheic dermatitis than in psoriasis.
One thing with my disease is that nobody, and I mean *absolutely nobody* else in my family, direct or removed, has had anything like this. They all have great skin. I happen to know that my condition was medically-induced. Before I used that topical $hit (prescribed for acne, by the way) that ruined my life for the past 12 years, I had never had symptoms like I’ve had since. After I stopped using the topicals but continued to have problems, I was prescribed a variety of antibiotics by successive doctors, which I believe only contributed to the candida overgrowth by killing off competing flora. Oh, I’ve also read abstracts which show fairly well that using antifungal therapy for, say, chronic fatigue syndrome is just about worthless as compared to placebo. Bits and pieces of Candida ‘overgrowth’ theory are being shown to just be wrong.
This conclusion would actually make sense, depending on the length and type of therapy involved if candida were actuallly at fault. If the problem is in the gut only, then the gut flora needs to be balanced out–candida needs to be reduced, while other bacteria (like acidophilus) needs a chance to colonize. This can take months. If it’s (also) in the blood, antibiotics taken for more than a few months would be necessary, with the downside being that those antibiotics could kill off candida’s naturally competing flora in the gut and elsewhere, so steps would have to be taken to try to keep the flora as balanced as possible during such antifungal therapy. It’s like a see-saw–one side goes down, the other goes up. I don’t know what it is about candida–because its a … read more »
Response:
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host of diseases that are actually symptoms of the infection itself.
Unfortunately, a lot of the stuff on the ‘Net about Candida ‘overgrowths’ appears to be quackery. There exist doctors who make a living by diagnosing Candida infections where none exist, based on nothing but symptoms, and claiming that no "test" can make a proper daignosis. Which is quite strange since such tests exist. It’s gotten to the point where more and more insurance companies *refuse* to pay for antifungal medications without also seeing Candida-test data which supports the claim of fungal infection. Quackwatch calls Candidiasis a "Fad Diagnosis": http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html One of the most interesting points in the Quackwatch article is that a report from Loyola concluded that "the advice of yeast connection [the book by Dr. Crook] advocates may be inappropriate even for illnesses in which Candida is implicated." How does Candida relate to psoriasis? I’ve seen exactly two studies which give fair evidence of some sort of connection. These reports said, basically, that psoriatics are 30-60% more likely than the general public to suffer from yeast "overgrowths" (at levels defined by the researchers, in terms of *stool* populations). In other words, if 10% of the population have active Candida infections, then 13-16% of psoriatics probably will, too. Does this mean that the psoriasis in that 13-16% is caused by Candida? Nope. Nobody knows. Does it mean that the psoriasis simply "allows" more Candida infections? Again, nobody knows. A clue, though, exists in the opening paragraphs of the Quackwatch article. Seems that people on immunosuppressants get more infections than others. Does the "extra" percentage of psoriatics with Candida infections equate to the percentage of psoriatics on immunosuppressive therapy? I don’t know. And the main reason I don’t know is that I don’t know what percentage of the general population have Candida troubles. The abstracts I’ve read do not have that data. No information I’ve ever seen has that data. That, Will, might be a good starting place for you and others interested in this idea: find a *reliable* source for Candida-infection data (but keep in mind that nearly 100% of the population has *some* Candida, it’s only when it gets out of hand that it supposedly becomes a problem). Anyone who claims 1/3rd or more is probably yanking your chain. On the other hand, Will, your particular disease has quite a bit of evidence pointing towards M. furfur and other fungi as causative factors. Candida may well have a much greater role in seborrheic dermatitis than in psoriasis. Oh, I’ve also read abstracts which show fairly well that using antifungal therapy for, say, chronic fatigue syndrome is just about worthless as compared to placebo. Bits and pieces of Candida ‘overgrowth’ theory are being shown to just be wrong. All this isn’t to say, of course, that if you’ve got a genuine problem with this or any other fungus, it shouldn’t be treated. But it might be better treated by professionals other than the so-called "Yeast Connection advocates." – Dave W. http://members.aol.com/psorsite/
Response:
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the ‘Net about the role of a candida albicans infection asbeing causative in various diseases. The infection, if systemic, can cause a whole host of diseases that are actually symptoms of the infection itself. I bring this up because a lot of you with psoriasis seem to have other ailments as well, like arthritis, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, sleeplessness, and the like. Apparently, these, as well as psoriasis, eczema, etc, are also symptoms of candida infections. If you do a search of the ‘Net for candida albicans infections (I tried "candida" and "fibromyalgia" together and got a slew of info and lists of interconnected symptoms), you’ll understand what I mean whe I say that many of you may in fact be suffering from systemic candida infections. Do a search for "antifungal" as well–it turned up some pretty interesting stuff, including causes of fungal infections, symptoms, and treatments. FYI, I found Google.com to be the best for this kind of search, but use whatever you like… Personally, though I "only" have medically-induced seborrheic dermatitis (on my face, brought on by Retin-A, and perhaps exacerbated by various antibiotics precribed to me by different derms over the years), in addition to my topical anti-fungal treatments, I will be adding a probiotic acidophilus supplement (in my case, I’m going to try Udo’s Gold) to balance out any imbalance of flora in my stomach and body (I’m also going to add Udo’s Gold Blend of monounsaturated oils, but that’s for my overall health, as is the multivitamin and b-complex I’ll also be adding). For anyone who wants to try the same kind of regimine, use whatever brands you’re most comfortable with. I really believe though that the systemic approach (internal and external), kept up for a number of months, is going to work for me, and I truly hope for anyone else who tries it too. –Will
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