Question:

Hi, I’m Rachel…..I’m anorexic and bulimic and other things too many to list here. Basically I started college this year and I am starting a self-help group with some of the college counselling team. I don’t deserve help but this way I can maybe get a bit better while helping others, which the voice inside me allows. Anyway, two things…..firstly well does anyone have any ideas on surviving college with an eating disorder? I went to Durham University (England) last year but had to leave because I became too sick and ended up in a psych ward again. This time I am living at home where I can get in a bit less trouble, but I still need ideas because the pressure of college, or something, seems to me sending me on a downward spiral. Anyone else in school or college while living with an eating disorder? Secondly, and most importantly, the only self-help groups I have been to have been kind of different, they have been in hospital settings where we have had group meetings. That is the closest I have got to a self-help group so I need any suggestions on how they work, on what is helpful in a group, and what is unhelpful and so on. It is important to note that this group won’t just be for eating disorders but for other psychological/emotional problems also, like self-harm, alcohol or drug addiction, maybe OCD, depression, schizophrenia sorts of things too, I’m not sure. I have to meet the head of the counselling team on Monday to discuss the group, so I would like any suggestions please! I really want to be able to help others and maybe lift myself out of this black hole a little. Thank you for your time, Rachel xx

Response:

Rachel Re- getting through college with an ED. www.somethingfishy.org has lots of useful message boards and one of them is specifically for students. You might like to check it out. Good luck with the group. It does sound difficult, but you’ll never know if you don’t try. Pam

Response:

Rachel, If you call the Eating Disorder Association on 0870 770 3256  and talk to Pam Veale, she will be able to send you a starter pack on becoming a self help group. She will also explain how it works and what the requirements are. Before you do that, may I suggest that you take a look at the website under self help. www.edauk.com Good luck Rachel! Amy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m Rachel…..I’m anorexic and bulimic and other things too many to list here. Basically I started college this year and I am starting a self-help group with some of the college counselling team. I don’t deserve help but this way I can maybe get a bit better while helping others, which the voice inside me allows. Anyway, two things…..firstly well does anyone have any ideas on surviving college with an eating disorder? I went to Durham University (England) last year but had to leave because I became too sick and ended up in a psych ward again. This time I am living at home where I can get in a bit less trouble, but I still need ideas because the pressure of college, or something, seems to me sending me on a downward spiral. Anyone else in school or college while living with an eating disorder? Secondly, and most importantly, the only self-help groups I have been to have been kind of different, they have been in hospital settings where we have had group meetings. That is the closest I have got to a self-help group so I need any suggestions on how they work, on what is helpful in a group, and what is unhelpful and so on. It is important to note that this group won’t just be for eating disorders but for other psychological/emotional problems also, like self-harm, alcohol or drug addiction, maybe OCD, depression, schizophrenia sorts of things too, I’m not sure. I have to meet the head of the counselling team on Monday to discuss the group, so I would like any suggestions please! I really want to be able to help others and maybe lift myself out of this black hole a little. Thank you for your time, Rachel xx

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m Rachel…..I’m anorexic and bulimic and other things too many to list here. Basically I started college this year and I am starting a self-help group with some of the college counselling team. I don’t deserve help but this way I can maybe get a bit better while helping others, which the voice inside me allows. Anyway, two things…..firstly well does anyone have any ideas on surviving college with an eating disorder? I went to Durham University (England) last year but had to leave because I became too sick and ended up in a psych ward again. This time I am living at home where I can get in a bit less trouble, but I still need ideas because the pressure of college, or something, seems to me sending me on a downward spiral. Anyone else in school or college while living with an eating disorder? Secondly, and most importantly, the only self-help groups I have been to have been kind of different, they have been in hospital settings where we have had group meetings. That is the closest I have got to a self-help group so I need any suggestions on how they work, on what is helpful in a group, and what is unhelpful and so on. It is important to note that this group won’t just be for eating disorders but for other psychological/emotional problems also, like self-harm, alcohol or drug addiction, maybe OCD, depression, schizophrenia sorts of things too, I’m not sure. I have to meet the head of the counselling team on Monday to discuss the group, so I would like any suggestions please! I really want to be able to help others and maybe lift myself out of this black hole a little. Thank you for your time, Rachel xx

First off, why don’t YOU deserve help.  No one needs to suffer, even if it is/feels self inflicted.  We are all put on earth for a good reason. I have only been to support groups that are for ED problems, but just from my experience when too many problems, i.e. alcohol, drugs, OCD, etc. are brought into the mix, it makes it really hard to focus on what you really need.  I think seperate groups may need to take place because it just gets to be overwhelming when you are talking about so many intense subjects.  Maybe you could at each meeting pick one or two topics to focus on. Good luck, keep us posted to how it goes.  I think that it is awsome that you are taking the initiative to start this, it shows that you are ready to help yourself. Libby

Response:

It is important to note that this group won’t just be for eating disorders but for other psychological/emotional problems also, like self-harm, alcohol or drug addiction, maybe OCD, depression, schizophrenia sorts of things too, I’m not sure. I have to meet the head of the counselling team on Monday to discuss the group, so I would like any suggestions please! I really want to be able to help others and maybe lift myself out of this black hole a little.

In my opinion, it would be best to have one group focused on eating disorders only as opposed to including all of those other diagnoses as well. Have a second or third group for those who are not dealing with an ED but who are struggling with these other problems.    People with diagnoses other than EDs tend to not understand at all where someone who is anorexic, bulimic or a compulsive eater is coming from, and this can be problematic. Also, not to put too fine of a point on it here, but people with EDs are often far higher-functioning than those who are dealing with schizophrenia or some of the other psych diagnoses.  While most of the other situations you mentioned: OCD, depression, SI (self-harm), dual addiction (alcohol, drugs)  can be part and parcel of an ED diagnosis, too,  in which case sufferers would be more likely be able to relate to someone who is anorexic, bulimic or COE who does not also have these other problems, not everyone who has those problems who is not also ED can understand an ED, too, if they themselves don’t happen to be dealing with one.  It can be frustrating for everyone concerned if the needed support is not forthcoming because people just cannot relate or understand. Someone with schizophrenia is in a very different situation and the ability to understand and to relate to an ED person would be even less.   I would be very leery of a group which attempts to combine a lot of people with many varying diagnoses and varying degrees of their diagnosis into one cohesive "support" group…. Just my tuppence-worth…. –Connie — "Starving the flesh wastes the spirit." –Kandis Elliot

Response:

Question:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something. I take St John’s Wort.

Me too. I feel better but I really can’t say whether it’s the Wort or a placebo thing.

I go on it and off of it.  I really believe that I do notice a profound difference.  Like most anti-depressants, you have to stay on it for a little while (a few weeks) to get the full benefit, though.  I sometimes wonder if some of the people who say it didn’t help them may not have given it enough time to work. Hugs, elle

Response:

Dion and Bob,   Ah to be human, thanks brothers, you guys are terrific.  I needed to hear every word you both said.  Your words will have impact in my life today and hopefully tomorrow and —– relaxed and peaceful today, Lance K

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.

I take St John’s Wort.  I feel better but I really can’t say whether it’s the Wort or a placebo thing.      I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.

Oh, absolutely.  The parallels between cigarette addiction, alcohol addiction, pot addiction and speed addiction are all over the place for me.  The common themes were:  Escape.  Survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.

You know, I never really thought much of the age thing, but it’s there for me to an extent.  Started happening for me when I turned 40, and it continues.  Heavy nostalgia for the "good ole days".  Well, shitfuck, the good ole days weren’t all that good!  I just have a tendency to romanticize the past, to see it as being better than it really was.  Not sure if that’s a natural thing for most folks, or just having some unresolved shit in my past that hasn’t been hashed out yet.  I dunno.   But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

This is very true, Lance.  It gets better.  Takes time.  That can be tough for me with my impatience, and wanting things to get better right *now* (dammit!).  Heh heh. Lee — 4m 1w 5d 16h smoke-free, 8,133 cigs not smoked, $1,219.95 saved for bikes and…uh…other stuff.

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.   I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.

When I smoked I always used to say that I could pack up booze much more reaily than I could smoking. Smoking was by far the greater pacifier, mood stablizer as you call it. And I iknow of all the fears you speak of – I have them too. The only thing you can do at the moment is just accept them – they are just fears afterall. But it can be bleak when such negativity begins to cascade upon us, especially when you’re ’stripped’ of your drugs and props. We can feel vulnerable much more easily. To air some of these anxieties and worries is no bad thing. It can help, and outside influence can help get a sense of perspective too. When it’s all going on in our heads, it’s easy to let it all spiral out of control. It also helps to have some kind of ‘expressive medium’, like writing it all down when it feels like it’s all getting overwhelming. At the end of the day, all of what you say here just amounts to one thing – you’re just human, and these thoughts are haboured by so many of us. To fear them is probably worse than the actual thoughts themselves. Keep it going. bobf 2y+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.  But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

Response:

Lance, We will both get through this. We will take it ODAT (one day at a time). No matter how good a cigarette looks, we will not smoke one, not one puff. All these years of smoke damage will take time for our bodies to get over.  One very importation note…….WE MUST BELIEVE IN OURSELVES. We don’t need no stinkin cigarettes. Dion One month, three weeks, one day, 14 hours, 11 minutes and 56 seconds. 2143 cigarettes not smoked, saving $475.89. Life saved: 1 week, 10 hours, 35 minutes. — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.    I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.   I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.   But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

Response:

I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE.

That’s no bad thing to do. Opening up the lungs to a bit of physical exertion is a good incentive to ‘keep up the good work’. bobf 2y+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Hey!!!   You’re welcome Dion         Buy yourself all the treats and rewards you want! You’ve done something that is VERY difficult and when you do something nice for yourself it helps you appreciate what you’ve done! Don’t wait to reward yourself. You’re investing in your success. P.S.  Glad you figured out the hot keys for your meter Dion   hehehehe…. it does make things easier! — Smoking is nothing to be proud of, only quitting is! "Dion" Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward.

Meter says- I have been freed from tobacco for 3m 5d 9:47, Which means I haven’t smoked 2,142 (handrolled) cigarettes. And, that’s not one puff, toke, drag, draw, hit, or large dose of 2nd hand smoke! (Note: In the event of a relapse, this meter would be reset to zero, but that’s just not going to happen!)          :-p~~~~~~ Keven       (a Junqui)

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.    I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.   I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.   But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be what ever you want me to be m203. — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain. "I’m like a woman.. enjoy spending money… running like a barmaid… " Are you sure you’re NOT a woman, Dion?  :P m I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

I’ll be what ever you want me to be m203. — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I’m like a woman.. enjoy spending money… running like a barmaid… " Are you sure you’re NOT a woman, Dion?  :P m I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Dion, it’s been a difficult week.  We have 9/11, we have so many trolls and people swallowing troll bait that you think you need a scorecard, we have the end of summer and the start of autumn, and much uncertainty looming in the air over certain things.  It’s all stress creating.  Plus, we all quit smoking.  Hell, that alone is enough, even on a good week. Take it easy on yourself.  Rewards are good, but also just giving yourself permission to be human and to have a shitty day now and then can take pressure off, too.  But you mention exercise… and that is a great mood stabilizer for a lot of people  Hope the volleyball season goes well for you. Hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

TGIF. Thanks for the pep talk Elle. Yeah exercise is so important and something I overlook. Dion……balling my way to bliss — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dion, it’s been a difficult week.  We have 9/11, we have so many trolls and people swallowing troll bait that you think you need a scorecard, we have the end of summer and the start of autumn, and much uncertainty looming in the air over certain things.  It’s all stress creating.  Plus, we all quit smoking.  Hell, that alone is enough, even on a good week. Take it easy on yourself.  Rewards are good, but also just giving yourself permission to be human and to have a shitty day now and then can take pressure off, too.  But you mention exercise… and that is a great mood stabilizer for a lot of people  Hope the volleyball season goes well for you. Hugs, elle I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Give up Carmen? Hell no. I’m here for the long haul. Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whatever you do don’t give in now. You have made it this far that it is not worth to have even one puff. Don’t listen to Mr. Smoke you are stronger than he is. Carmen quitting is hard, to start smoking again is easy — stay quitt One week, three days, 7 hours, 44 minutes and 39 seconds. 361 cigarettes not smoked, saving $93.93. Life saved: 1 day, 6 hours, 5 minutes. I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Never a bad word towards you darling. Well maybe I do…..Don’t &*^ smoke today.:-) Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, I know exactly what you mean.  It gets better.  Really!  I hope that wasn’t a slam to Texas bar maids….  if so, them’s fightin’ words!  LOL  Hang in there Dion. With hope and heart, Kathleen I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

thanks Sally. Slurppppp.   :-p Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. It’s been a strange week, Dion…. 9/11 among other things.  I hope your spirit picks up soon.  Staying busy and pampering yourself will help a lot.  Read and post LOTS during the next two days, willya?  I’m gone to do my double shifts.  The first thing I’m going to look for in here on Sunday is posts from you saying you’re ok. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. You’re doing great, Dion.  Have you thought about what you’re going to get for your MM treat????? Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain. By the looks of your pic with baby on the quitbuddies site, that sig fits you perfectly… Have a nice weekend!! Sally — 4months 3weeks  8:58 smoke-free, 4,296 cigs not smoked, $1,007.41 saved for whatever I want to spend it on, 2w 22:00 life saved Nicotine-free since 9/08/02

Response:

Thanks for the support Ana. Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. It has been an odd week for many of us. Trolls, wannabe trolls, worn out trolls, back to work, back to school, back to life without smokes. You are doing fine, Dion. Enjoy the DVDs and CD. Smacking a volley ball sounds good! Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain. Still my fav! Ana — Not one stinkin’ puff for: One week, six days, 1 hour, 23 minutes. That’s 522 cigarettes not smoked, saving $89.31 for girlie stuff.

Response:

I always have my chin up Craig. It gives the drool somewhere to go. Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion Dion, Keep squinting and walking into the sunshine. You are in the exhausted phased. Too tired of quiting. The one month thing was a gas, now what is there? Gawd, make it stop. Damn I feel like shit. No worries Mate. CHIN UP! Gotta go for the QOF! peace bro. Craig Watts 5 ‘ems

Response:

I’ve been out of sorts this week.

It’s been a strange week, Dion…. 9/11 among other things.  I hope your spirit picks up soon.  Staying busy and pampering yourself will help a lot.  Read and post LOTS during the next two days, willya?  I’m gone to do my double shifts.  The first thing I’m going to look for in here on Sunday is posts from you saying you’re ok. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes.

You’re doing great, Dion.  Have you thought about what you’re going to get for your MM treat????? Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

By the looks of your pic with baby on the quitbuddies site, that sig fits you perfectly… Have a nice weekend!! Sally — 4months 3weeks  8:58 smoke-free, 4,296 cigs not smoked, $1,007.41 saved for whatever I want to spend it on, 2w 22:00 life saved Nicotine-free since 9/08/02

Response:

Yep, I know exactly what you mean.  It gets better.  Really!  I hope that wasn’t a slam to Texas bar maids….  if so, them’s fightin’ words!  LOL  Hang in there Dion. With hope and heart, Kathleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion

Dion, Keep squinting and walking into the sunshine. You are in the exhausted phased. Too tired of quiting. The one month thing was a gas, now what is there? Gawd, make it stop. Damn I feel like shit. No worries Mate. CHIN UP! Gotta go for the QOF! peace bro. Craig Watts 5 ‘ems

Response:

Whatever you do don’t give in now. You have made it this far that it is not worth to have even one puff. Don’t listen to Mr. Smoke you are stronger than he is. Carmen quitting is hard, to start smoking again is easy — stay quitt One week, three days, 7 hours, 44 minutes and 39 seconds. 361 cigarettes not smoked, saving $93.93. Life saved: 1 day, 6 hours, 5 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes.

It has been an odd week for many of us. Trolls, wannabe trolls, worn out trolls, back to work, back to school, back to life without smokes. You are doing fine, Dion. Enjoy the DVDs and CD. Smacking a volley ball sounds good! Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Still my fav! Ana —   Not one stinkin’ puff for: One week, six days, 1 hour, 23 minutes. That’s 522 cigarettes not smoked, saving $89.31 for girlie stuff.

Response:

"I’m like a woman.. enjoy spending money… running like a barmaid… " Are you sure you’re NOT a woman, Dion?  :P m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

"I’m like a woman.. enjoy spending money… running like a barmaid… " Are you sure you’re NOT a woman, Dion?  :P m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes.

It has been an odd week for many of us. Trolls, wannabe trolls, worn out trolls, back to work, back to school, back to life without smokes. You are doing fine, Dion. Enjoy the DVDs and CD. Smacking a volley ball sounds good! Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Still my fav! Ana —   Not one stinkin’ puff for: One week, six days, 1 hour, 23 minutes. That’s 522 cigarettes not smoked, saving $89.31 for girlie stuff.

Response:

weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion

Dion, Keep squinting and walking into the sunshine. You are in the exhausted phased. Too tired of quiting. The one month thing was a gas, now what is there? Gawd, make it stop. Damn I feel like shit. No worries Mate. CHIN UP! Gotta go for the QOF! peace bro. Craig Watts 5 ‘ems

Response:

Whatever you do don’t give in now. You have made it this far that it is not worth to have even one puff. Don’t listen to Mr. Smoke you are stronger than he is. Carmen quitting is hard, to start smoking again is easy — stay quitt One week, three days, 7 hours, 44 minutes and 39 seconds. 361 cigarettes not smoked, saving $93.93. Life saved: 1 day, 6 hours, 5 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Yep, I know exactly what you mean.  It gets better.  Really!  I hope that wasn’t a slam to Texas bar maids….  if so, them’s fightin’ words!  LOL  Hang in there Dion. With hope and heart, Kathleen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

I’ve been out of sorts this week.

It’s been a strange week, Dion…. 9/11 among other things.  I hope your spirit picks up soon.  Staying busy and pampering yourself will help a lot.  Read and post LOTS during the next two days, willya?  I’m gone to do my double shifts.  The first thing I’m going to look for in here on Sunday is posts from you saying you’re ok. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes.

You’re doing great, Dion.  Have you thought about what you’re going to get for your MM treat????? Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

By the looks of your pic with baby on the quitbuddies site, that sig fits you perfectly… Have a nice weekend!! Sally — 4months 3weeks  8:58 smoke-free, 4,296 cigs not smoked, $1,007.41 saved for whatever I want to spend it on, 2w 22:00 life saved Nicotine-free since 9/08/02

Response:

Thanks for the support Ana. Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. It has been an odd week for many of us. Trolls, wannabe trolls, worn out trolls, back to work, back to school, back to life without smokes. You are doing fine, Dion. Enjoy the DVDs and CD. Smacking a volley ball sounds good! Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain. Still my fav! Ana — Not one stinkin’ puff for: One week, six days, 1 hour, 23 minutes. That’s 522 cigarettes not smoked, saving $89.31 for girlie stuff.

Response:

I always have my chin up Craig. It gives the drool somewhere to go. Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion Dion, Keep squinting and walking into the sunshine. You are in the exhausted phased. Too tired of quiting. The one month thing was a gas, now what is there? Gawd, make it stop. Damn I feel like shit. No worries Mate. CHIN UP! Gotta go for the QOF! peace bro. Craig Watts 5 ‘ems

Response:

Never a bad word towards you darling. Well maybe I do…..Don’t &*^ smoke today.:-) Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, I know exactly what you mean.  It gets better.  Really!  I hope that wasn’t a slam to Texas bar maids….  if so, them’s fightin’ words!  LOL  Hang in there Dion. With hope and heart, Kathleen I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

thanks Sally. Slurppppp.   :-p Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. It’s been a strange week, Dion…. 9/11 among other things.  I hope your spirit picks up soon.  Staying busy and pampering yourself will help a lot.  Read and post LOTS during the next two days, willya?  I’m gone to do my double shifts.  The first thing I’m going to look for in here on Sunday is posts from you saying you’re ok. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. You’re doing great, Dion.  Have you thought about what you’re going to get for your MM treat????? Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain. By the looks of your pic with baby on the quitbuddies site, that sig fits you perfectly… Have a nice weekend!! Sally — 4months 3weeks  8:58 smoke-free, 4,296 cigs not smoked, $1,007.41 saved for whatever I want to spend it on, 2w 22:00 life saved Nicotine-free since 9/08/02

Response:

Give up Carmen? Hell no. I’m here for the long haul. Dion — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whatever you do don’t give in now. You have made it this far that it is not worth to have even one puff. Don’t listen to Mr. Smoke you are stronger than he is. Carmen quitting is hard, to start smoking again is easy — stay quitt One week, three days, 7 hours, 44 minutes and 39 seconds. 361 cigarettes not smoked, saving $93.93. Life saved: 1 day, 6 hours, 5 minutes. I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Dion, it’s been a difficult week.  We have 9/11, we have so many trolls and people swallowing troll bait that you think you need a scorecard, we have the end of summer and the start of autumn, and much uncertainty looming in the air over certain things.  It’s all stress creating.  Plus, we all quit smoking.  Hell, that alone is enough, even on a good week. Take it easy on yourself.  Rewards are good, but also just giving yourself permission to be human and to have a shitty day now and then can take pressure off, too.  But you mention exercise… and that is a great mood stabilizer for a lot of people  Hope the volleyball season goes well for you. Hugs, elle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

TGIF. Thanks for the pep talk Elle. Yeah exercise is so important and something I overlook. Dion……balling my way to bliss — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dion, it’s been a difficult week.  We have 9/11, we have so many trolls and people swallowing troll bait that you think you need a scorecard, we have the end of summer and the start of autumn, and much uncertainty looming in the air over certain things.  It’s all stress creating.  Plus, we all quit smoking.  Hell, that alone is enough, even on a good week. Take it easy on yourself.  Rewards are good, but also just giving yourself permission to be human and to have a shitty day now and then can take pressure off, too.  But you mention exercise… and that is a great mood stabilizer for a lot of people  Hope the volleyball season goes well for you. Hugs, elle I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

I’ll be what ever you want me to be m203. — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I’m like a woman.. enjoy spending money… running like a barmaid… " Are you sure you’re NOT a woman, Dion?  :P m I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be what ever you want me to be m203. — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain. "I’m like a woman.. enjoy spending money… running like a barmaid… " Are you sure you’re NOT a woman, Dion?  :P m I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE. Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Hey!!!   You’re welcome Dion         Buy yourself all the treats and rewards you want! You’ve done something that is VERY difficult and when you do something nice for yourself it helps you appreciate what you’ve done! Don’t wait to reward yourself. You’re investing in your success. P.S.  Glad you figured out the hot keys for your meter Dion   hehehehe…. it does make things easier! — Smoking is nothing to be proud of, only quitting is! "Dion" Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward.

Meter says- I have been freed from tobacco for 3m 5d 9:47, Which means I haven’t smoked 2,142 (handrolled) cigarettes. And, that’s not one puff, toke, drag, draw, hit, or large dose of 2nd hand smoke! (Note: In the event of a relapse, this meter would be reset to zero, but that’s just not going to happen!)          :-p~~~~~~ Keven       (a Junqui)

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.    I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.   I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.   But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

Response:

I’ve been out of sorts this week. I wouldn’t say a bad mood really, just not cheery. I had a dream of smoking earlier in the week which brought on some strong cravings. Keven suggested getting myself a treat as reward. On-line I went to see what may cheer me up. Ended up with 2 DVD’s & a CD. Can’t wait for their arrival. Thanks Keven, I’m like a woman in the way I enjoy spending money. I haven’t always had it to spend. So after spending my scratch on entertainment disks I still didn’t feel my chipper self. Tonight I play competitive volleyball for first time in 3 weeks (in between seasons), I now feel great. My point to everyone. Sorry for running on like a Texas bar maid. No the bar maids not my point. EXERCISE.

That’s no bad thing to do. Opening up the lungs to a bit of physical exertion is a good incentive to ‘keep up the good work’. bobf 2y+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dion One month, three weeks, 23 hours, 9 minutes and 19 seconds. 2118 cigarettes not smoked, saving $466.09. Life saved: 1 week, 8 hours, 30 minutes. Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

Response:

Lance, We will both get through this. We will take it ODAT (one day at a time). No matter how good a cigarette looks, we will not smoke one, not one puff. All these years of smoke damage will take time for our bodies to get over.  One very importation note…….WE MUST BELIEVE IN OURSELVES. We don’t need no stinkin cigarettes. Dion One month, three weeks, one day, 14 hours, 11 minutes and 56 seconds. 2143 cigarettes not smoked, saving $475.89. Life saved: 1 week, 10 hours, 35 minutes. — Singing in the sunshine, laughing in the rain.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.    I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.   I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.   But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.   I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.

When I smoked I always used to say that I could pack up booze much more reaily than I could smoking. Smoking was by far the greater pacifier, mood stablizer as you call it. And I iknow of all the fears you speak of – I have them too. The only thing you can do at the moment is just accept them – they are just fears afterall. But it can be bleak when such negativity begins to cascade upon us, especially when you’re ’stripped’ of your drugs and props. We can feel vulnerable much more easily. To air some of these anxieties and worries is no bad thing. It can help, and outside influence can help get a sense of perspective too. When it’s all going on in our heads, it’s easy to let it all spiral out of control. It also helps to have some kind of ‘expressive medium’, like writing it all down when it feels like it’s all getting overwhelming. At the end of the day, all of what you say here just amounts to one thing – you’re just human, and these thoughts are haboured by so many of us. To fear them is probably worse than the actual thoughts themselves. Keep it going. bobf 2y+ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.  But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

Response:

Dion and Bob,   Ah to be human, thanks brothers, you guys are terrific.  I needed to hear every word you both said.  Your words will have impact in my life today and hopefully tomorrow and —– relaxed and peaceful today, Lance K

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something.

I take St John’s Wort.  I feel better but I really can’t say whether it’s the Wort or a placebo thing.      I quit drinking 20 years ago, I suppose there are similarities going on as in the loss of a supposed stabilizer.  I just feel very raw nerved, uneasy, ok, scared.  I do not want to admit it but I do not want to face life without my pacifier, it made it feel easier, seemed to take the rough edges away.

Oh, absolutely.  The parallels between cigarette addiction, alcohol addiction, pot addiction and speed addiction are all over the place for me.  The common themes were:  Escape.  Survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I’m 48, my greatest overwhelming fear is aging, or moreso "what if I loose my job at this age and have to start over again".  Do I have the strength to start over again.  Will I loose my condo, go into debt, charge cards, health insurance loose everything, end up on the street. At least with ole pal Mr. Smokey, he tended to sedate these feelings. Now they are foremost in my mind some days.  I am sorry for sounding like such a babbling baby about all of this, I just can’t help it and I am glad to have at least confessed out loud to all of this crap going on in my mind.  I hate it.  I just want to be secure in life, have a home, live a little, eat, buy things now and then, and be happy.  I’m stuck on, "don’t spend a penny cause you may loose your job tomorrow" thinking.  I do not drive and am single, so that just adds onto it, I seem to snowball alot of negative thinking.  Any free councelors out there?  Anybody relate or am I the only one going nuts with this? Anybody have a spare million or 2?  I might feel a little more secure with that under my mattress.

You know, I never really thought much of the age thing, but it’s there for me to an extent.  Started happening for me when I turned 40, and it continues.  Heavy nostalgia for the "good ole days".  Well, shitfuck, the good ole days weren’t all that good!  I just have a tendency to romanticize the past, to see it as being better than it really was.  Not sure if that’s a natural thing for most folks, or just having some unresolved shit in my past that hasn’t been hashed out yet.  I dunno.   But back to you Dion, hope it gets better for you and as you can see some of us are just a bit more nuts than the next, and I wholeheartedly admit this, and hope at least that makes you feel better. Lance K 1month, 2 days, 128 dollars

This is very true, Lance.  It gets better.  Takes time.  That can be tough for me with my impatience, and wanting things to get better right *now* (dammit!).  Heh heh. Lee — 4m 1w 5d 16h smoke-free, 8,133 cigs not smoked, $1,219.95 saved for bikes and…uh…other stuff.

Response:

Dion—-I know where you’re coming from. I hope you are feeling better. I know this thread is about you but I’ve got to get this crap out of me. I’ve been smober for 1 month and 2 days, and I just can’t seem to pull it together inside.  For myself, I am almost tempted to seek some kind of help or take "st. johns wort" or something. I take St John’s Wort.

Me too. I feel better but I really can’t say whether it’s the Wort or a placebo thing.

I go on it and off of it.  I really believe that I do notice a profound difference.  Like most anti-depressants, you have to stay on it for a little while (a few weeks) to get the full benefit, though.  I sometimes wonder if some of the people who say it didn’t help them may not have given it enough time to work. Hugs, elle

Response:

Question:

People have been telling you to get it forever.  Have a look at yourself or ya know I’ll invite you to private e-mail this to me so you won’t have to bether the group you love so much anymore with it witch. Pauly and April had the right idea but I was so upset with my son wiggin out and Mikes coming here I was a wreck.  One look at him and he jumped out the window.  You got along for a while I’ll have to hand it to you I even started to really respect the way you had grown up but you are slippin now Yosh…bigtime…You and Mike missed the boat, maybe you woud suit each other. You are so nasty he would most likely kiss your but.  hahaha well wait, how much money do you make?? Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Save it for therapy Mary. Nobody wants to hear this crap. -Angela

Response:

Yes ME, In Putnam County New York…held at the Carmel Jail on or about Sept 6th Plead guilty. Lawrence Michael Soja Love, Mary Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!news.

maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!news.a lt.net!usenet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.herpes Organization: Lamer U Lines: 9 Reply-To: Me you idiot. X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 to make sense by shouting the following: First of all I have a life and have better things to do that squish the bug you are physically, secondly I can’t be responsible for anyone who you have incited to action with your actions and behavior, thirdy I am sure the whole world will raly to the side of a woman beater….lol Is this worm a woman beater? That sheds new light on the matter.

Response:

You ae going to pay for your lies here somehow someway.  I don’t know how it will all end but I am sure that God eill get you for what you have done and the way you have lied.  I am sure…even if it’s thast the only company you ever have is thiat keyboard of you with your lies.  I’m not going over everyone of them because I already spent to much of my valuable time on this huey tonight but just one I will never forget was Exaviars…rated the finest resteraunt in all New York, My favorite that I asked you to go to with me and you came out of the bedroom wearing a tie with Neon colored boxer shorts all over it with polka dots and all.  I, in my most polite manner tried to gently tell you that although I thought the tie was wonderful that it was inappropriate for this occasion,.. You were hostile the entire even ing to the point that when I said shit in our private conversation you said that "my dress had offended you but you r behavior is horrible, you talk like a pig!"  I at theat pint then asked the waiter when he came over if my behavior that evening had been anything less than appropriate and if I had acted any less than a lady, at which point he said "absolutely not"  I aksed that he bring the car about and give you the check at which point I stood up and left the table strutting out in my evening gown…HA one other night the other lies I can’t even be bothered with…I don’t break my own inventory. I wnet out with you and even though I was with you all kinds of guys were trying to hang on me because we left the resteraunt and were playing pool. they were coming on to me and asking when they could get together with me…pigs and you would never know I was with a MAN cause he said nothing till I told them off and then tried to walk home but someone wouldn’t let me out of the car. Screemed and yelled at me all the way to Mass to meet his mom till I was droning in my own tears asking to be taken to any train to go home and so upset I felt ill and became ill and had to have the car stopped because I threw up he was yelling at me so much and then when we geot up there didn’t take me to train but had mom come out and convince me to come in and that is when I met her and she said they always called you contrary Mike.  She made me laugh.  I like d her even though you didn’t.  I aked you to fix her chimes she asked you about which you never did do did you? thanksgiving … a nightmare and a half….massages from women on the machine saying Mike were nice and we want you comon over sounding stoned on something—no explanation…dinner with father/ parents drove two and a half hours and had 1/2 bowl of onion soup even though they are hefty…what gives then asked you for chicken soup…tooo much trouble…you brought wine to neighbors house you slept with and had me ahng out with the two of you—hard on me consdidering the lies too…then osterasized me for drinking the wine YOU brought with her…….My son found a big bag of drugs in your computer drawer when you left him there to play.  I wanted to go and sleep in my car but you stole the keys and then when I told you I wanted to sleep down there you woke my son and told him "Your mother is a drunk and she wants to leave" over and over.  Wanna ask him.. Your mother is a DRUNK…then yes I did try to tip over the birdbath you bought from me after I told you countless times how much it had bothered me in the past that my old boyfriend would decorate his apartment from my store while living in my house…Yep guilty of that but I didn’t break it did I? and you just smashed my skull in weeks before and this was your big make up holiday? after the dress on Holloween…nice but my friend is bi so that’s o.k. I guess….LOL The lies you tell about what you did to me that night you should simply rot in hell for! You were helping to laod a truck but had to make such a show of yourself as to take eveything back out and totallay inconvienience seven people.  They wer all making faces at me bulging eyes…have fun big man.. I never threatened you I just laughed at you.  I did tell you later you made me angry with your behavior.  I didn’t threaten you and even if I had Mike it’s one thing to say I felt like smacking you or punching you and not to have done it and a whole different thing to do it.  I guess you proved who was the lion is that it Mike???? I did not hit you…you hit me Mike.  I hit you back once when you beat me and then broke my grandmas pic….I was swinging my arms when you were trying to stop me from getting away from your ugliness on thansgiving after all you had done over time…yep  I was out by my car and you  were fgoing to take charge of me.  I didn’t even have the keys and I just wanted to sleep away from you and you were going to force me to do different.  My son was trying to look out for me and you took the keys and told him NOT to give them to anyone…I wans’ tgoing anywhere as at this pint you had seen me sleep in the car out of my own bed because of you and your hostility before. He and I have a close relationship and you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone of your lies.  We get along great.  we had fights becasue of you coming here but that went by and hasn’t been since.  You are the one that Hit ME  tell it to the courts Mike take me to court for slander if it’s a lie I’m checking my e-mails and I’ll be back with your own words…LOL  Noone hit anybody but you Mike! Yeha I slapped at you on Thanksgiving eve to try to get you off me but no more.  I don’t do bodily harm to others like you…you nearly killed me and I wansn’t hitting you and you know it.  You smahed me bad and I say it was DR. D head in the bedroom with the lamp….I was there and you only have to live with yourself!  I have had scuffles with other boyfriends but nothing like this nothing ever we NEVER hit each other like waht you did to me….push shove smack a couple times in y life but never anything like what you did.  That was the most violent thing that ever happened to me and I guess it took me along time to come out of shock…You love me?????LOLOLOL Funniest thing I heard all year….at least I can laugh and especially at those who buy into it, Mary Not going on that junk tit for tat too busy./…bye I though you were leaving Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cpk-n

ews-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln !extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.herpes Organization: NeverSoft Ltd Lines: 131 NNTP-Posting-Host: p-938.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Is this worm a woman beater? That sheds new light on the matter. No, this worm is not a woman beater.  But M is an abusive bitch: @July 12, 1999 – After dinner and shooting pool and M’s drinking of several shots of Tequila, she became irate and argumentative over nothing.  She jammed one of her high heels through a vent high up on the dash of my truck, breaking it, and had to struggle to remove her shoe from the dash.  She became increasingly angry on the ride home and tried to jump out of the truck doing 40 mph.  Out of fear for her safety I stopped the truck and she proceeded to stagger down the middle of the road, lurching in her high heels.  She removed her shoes and threw them at the truck and continued wobbling down the middle of the road.  Out of frustration and fear for her safety I grabbed her and wrestled her into the truck.  She took several swings at me but didn’t connect.  I locked the doors for the remainder of the ride. She struggled to unlock her door, again attempting to get out of the truck at speed, and ripped the electric window switch out of its socket in the door.  I left her in the truck at home and she took the doggy bag from dinner and dumped it upside down on the truck seat. Inside her house she picked up a big standing ashtray and threw it against the sofa and floor, breaking it.  Didn’t remember anything in the morning.  We retrieved her shoes from the side of the road the next day. July 16, 1999 – Friday.  We went to dinner at one of the nicest restaurants in the area.  We ate out on the quiet verandah with several other couples near us.  As the dinner proceeded and M drank more and more wine she started cussing more and more, making me uncomfortable.  At some point she called me a "fucking prick" for reasons that escape me now. Sensing my discomfort she asked, "Did I fucking say something wrong or something?" which I thought beautifully ironic.  I told her I was upset at her language in such a nice place. Of course she blew up, though quietly since we were at Xaviar’s.  We cut dessert short and left arguing, first going home and then over to a friend’s hot tub.  In the tub M, drinking a bottle of wine by herself, raised her fists to me two or three times and said she wanted to smash my face in.  In the dark she very easily could have.  And when we were finally back home she raised her fists to me two more times, threatening me again. Late August – Raised her fist in anger at The King’s College, in front of the other workers there, and said she wanted to smash my face in because I damaged the veneer on a dresser while putting a stained glass window in her van.  The veneer on other parts of the dresser was pulling away in big sheets but no matter. August 24, 1999 – Tuesday.  On the way to Cape Cod M said she wanted to smash

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Response:

attempted to make sense by shouting the following: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is this worm a woman beater? That sheds new light on the matter. No, this worm is not a woman beater.  But M is an abusive bitch: @July 12, 1999 – After dinner and shooting pool and M’s drinking of several shots of Tequila, she became irate and argumentative over nothing.  She jammed one of her high heels through a vent high up on the dash of my truck, breaking it, and had to struggle to remove her shoe from the dash.  She became increasingly angry on the ride home and tried to jump out of the truck doing 40 mph.  Out of fear for her safety I stopped the truck and she proceeded to stagger down the middle of the road, lurching in her high heels.  She removed her shoes and threw them at the truck and continued wobbling down the middle of the road.  Out of frustration and fear for her safety I grabbed her and wrestled her into the truck.  She took several swings at me but didn’t connect.  I locked the doors for the remainder of the ride. She struggled to unlock her door, again attempting to get out of the truck at speed, and ripped the electric window switch out of its socket in the door.  I left her in the truck at home and she took the doggy bag from dinner and dumped it upside down on the truck seat. Inside her house she picked up a big standing ashtray and threw it against the sofa and floor, breaking it.  Didn’t remember anything in the morning.  We retrieved her shoes from the side of the road the next day. July 16, 1999 – Friday.  We went to dinner at one of the nicest restaurants in the area.  We ate out on the quiet verandah with several other couples near us.  As the dinner proceeded and M drank more and more wine she started cussing more and more, making me uncomfortable.  At some point she called me a "fucking prick" for reasons that escape me now. Sensing my discomfort she asked, "Did I fucking say something wrong or something?" which I thought beautifully ironic.  I told her I was upset at her language in such a nice place. Of course she blew up, though quietly since we were at Xaviar’s.  We cut dessert short and left arguing, first going home and then over to a friend’s hot tub.  In the tub M, drinking a bottle of wine by herself, raised her fists to me two or three times and said she wanted to smash my face in.  In the dark she very easily could have.  And when we were finally back home she raised her fists to me two more times, threatening me again. Late August – Raised her fist in anger at The King’s College, in front of the other workers there, and said she wanted to smash my face in because I damaged the veneer on a dresser while putting a stained glass window in her van.  The veneer on other parts of the dresser was pulling away in big sheets but no matter. August 24, 1999 – Tuesday.  On the way to Cape Cod M said she wanted to smash my face in because I was frustrated with how late we were (several hours.)  At one point she said that I should drive the truck full speed into a bridge and continued ranting and raving until she made herself physically sick.  She threw things out the window in high speed in heavy traffic. @August 28, 1999 –  At the store, she threatened to punch my face in but "only" threw a box of Christmas ornaments at me, hitting me.  She threw and smashed other merchandise in the store. September 1, 1999 – Wednesday.  M broke two coffee pots and several dishes in anger over having to clean on her day off.  She threatened to punch my face in and to smash me with a plate.  She threw a laundry basket at me. September 5, 1999 – Sunday.  M threw boxes of merchandise into the store in anger.  She didn’t specifically physically threaten me but the elements for it were there.  Too drunk to drive herself home and too pissed to have me drive her as I usually did, she walked to the road and hitched a ride with the first passing car.  Because I didn’t follow behind but went home the other way she was pissed some more. Several hours later: September 6, 1999 – Around 2 a.m., after several more beers and some Jack Daniels by both of us (me more than her on the Jack) I called M "a fucking nutcase" and she slammed me in the head with her elbow while we lay in bed.  We both got out of bed.  She punched me in the face again as I yelled at her and she left the room.  I slammed the door against the wall and smashed a lamp.  She came back in the room and lunged at me with a dental pick.  We wrestled and I banged her head on a glass jewelry box on her dresser.  I let her up. She came at me with the broken lamp.  We wrestled to a stop against the bed.  I let her up.  She threw a heavy vase at me, hitting my back, just missing my spine.  She spit on me repeatedly.  And attacked me again with her fists.  We wrestled again to the floor.  I let her up. Later, at the hospital she had to be physically restrained (strapped to a chair I believe) and repeatedly spit on the doctors trying to attend to the cut on her forehead.  (So she told me.) @September 18, 1999 – M raised her fist to me in her store, just inside the back door.  She quickly said that she was just joking but she hadn’t been when she raised her fist. **I wasn’t in NY from Sep 21 through Oct 20** October 30, 1999 – Saturday.  During an argument before a Halloween party she violently kicked her shoes off, hitting me with one, but claimed it was an accident. November 1, 1999 – Monday.  At the shop, M threw a books at me twice. November 24, 1999 – Wednesday night Thursday morning.  M drank a beer, glass of wine at dinner and then 1

Question:

Hmmmm… I read this, and it seems *very* credible to me. Not that *I’m* an expert or anything. Fido – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From today’s Chicago Tribune: AN INSIDER’S VIEW OF WHAT LEADS TO END OF A MARRIAGE Janet L. Stoodley February 27, 2000 NAME: William R. Jacobs II BACKGROUND: After 47 years as a divorce trial attorney, William R. Jacobs II has seen more than his fair share of bad marriages. He knows a lot about what breaks up a marriage, but he also knows what keeps them together. In addition to being a member of the American Arbitration Association for more than 35 years, he and his wife, Shirley, will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary this year. A graduate of Northwestern University Law School, Jacobs has been an author, teacher and lecturer in the area of family law, counseling and trial skills. He is a past director of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers and is a member of the Family Counseling and Conciliation Committee of the Chicago Bar Association and a member of the Illinois Trial Lawyers Association. Although some attorneys never see the inside of a courtroom, three to four times a week Jacobs commutes downtown from his home and office in Des Plaines. He and wife Shirley have three sons and four grandchildren. Q–How many people have you "divorced"? A–Oh, I don’t really know. I’ve probably consulted individually or with other attorneys on 16,000 to 17,000 cases. I’ve probably "divorced" in excess of 10,000 clients. Q–Based on your observations through the years, what has your practice taught you about marriage and divorce? A–First, if a couple has been married 15 years or longer and they come for divorce, assuming there is no drug addiction, alcohol abuse or physical violence, the odds are the person seeking the divorce has already picked out their next spouse — is already involved with their next spouse. Also, most men, no matter what the circumstances are, don’t want to get divorced. If they come in for a divorce, they generally feel it should be the wife who files for the divorce. Even if they are involved with somebody else and expect to marry or live with that person, they don’t think they ought to file. Part of that is the philosophy that "if she filed, she’s the one who broke the bonds of matrimony." Q–What breaks up marriages these days? A–What used to break up marriages in 90 percent of the cases was sexual differences. They just do not relate to each other sexually. Masters and Johnson came along and established that if you have sexual identity problems within a marriage, if you solve those problems, people stayed together. When I did marriage counseling, (I found) the same thing to be true. If we solved all their other problems — money, child rearing, everything else — and we didn’t solve the sexual identity problems, they got divorced. Q–When you say sexual identity issues, you mean "wanting it too often, or not often enough, or strange or unusual preferences or requests." That kind of thing? A–All that. Q–If sexuality issues were a major cause in the past, what about today? A–Alcoholism, drug addiction and still the sexual differences. Q–What about personality differences? The little things that tend to get bigger, like squeezing the toothpaste tube from the middle instead of the bottom. A–In most instances, people are able to deal with those differences. It’s the sexuality, alcoholism, drugs. And of course instances of physical abuse. Q–What about kids in a divorce? A–Kids complicate the issue tremendously. I’ve probably represented almost 1,000 kids as (a court-appointed representative) or as attorney. Kids are absolutely phenomenal. They not only know (with which parent) they ought to be, but without knowing it, they give you the legal reasons. They have an uncanny instinct about what’s best for them. Q–What advice would you give a couple contemplating getting married? A–That they go for marriage counseling. I like the pre-Cana program that the Catholic Church offers. Q–What kinds of issues would good marital counseling cover? A–Sexual beliefs and expectations, money, children and raising them. What the division of labor in the household will be. Q–What can counseling bring to light? A–Bad habits. If a person has drinking, drug, gambling or violent proclivities, run the other way. — ===== This post was from Paul Botts:

Response:

From today’s Chicago Tribune: AN INSIDER’S VIEW OF WHAT LEADS TO END OF A MARRIAGE Janet L. Stoodley February 27, 2000 NAME: William R. Jacobs II BACKGROUND: After 47 years as a divorce trial attorney, William R. Jacobs II has seen more than his fair share of bad marriages. He knows a lot about what breaks up a marriage, but he also knows what keeps them together. In addition to being a member of the American Arbitration Association for more than 35 years, he and his wife, Shirley, will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary this year. A graduate of Northwestern University Law School, Jacobs has been an author, teacher and lecturer in the area of family law, counseling and trial skills. He is a past director of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers and is a member of the Family Counseling and Conciliation Committee of the Chicago Bar Association and a member of the Illinois Trial Lawyers Association. Although some attorneys never see the inside of a courtroom, three to four times a week Jacobs commutes downtown from his home and office in Des Plaines. He and wife Shirley have three sons and four grandchildren. Q–How many people have you "divorced"? A–Oh, I don’t really know. I’ve probably consulted individually or with other attorneys on 16,000 to 17,000 cases. I’ve probably "divorced" in excess of 10,000 clients. Q–Based on your observations through the years, what has your practice taught you about marriage and divorce? A–First, if a couple has been married 15 years or longer and they come for divorce, assuming there is no drug addiction, alcohol abuse or physical violence, the odds are the person seeking the divorce has already picked out their next spouse — is already involved with their next spouse. Also, most men, no matter what the circumstances are, don’t want to get divorced. If they come in for a divorce, they generally feel it should be the wife who files for the divorce. Even if they are involved with somebody else and expect to marry or live with that person, they don’t think they ought to file. Part of that is the philosophy that "if she filed, she’s the one who broke the bonds of matrimony." Q–What breaks up marriages these days? A–What used to break up marriages in 90 percent of the cases was sexual differences. They just do not relate to each other sexually. Masters and Johnson came along and established that if you have sexual identity problems within a marriage, if you solve those problems, people stayed together. When I did marriage counseling, (I found) the same thing to be true. If we solved all their other problems — money, child rearing, everything else — and we didn’t solve the sexual identity problems, they got divorced. Q–When you say sexual identity issues, you mean "wanting it too often, or not often enough, or strange or unusual preferences or requests." That kind of thing? A–All that. Q–If sexuality issues were a major cause in the past, what about today? A–Alcoholism, drug addiction and still the sexual differences. Q–What about personality differences? The little things that tend to get bigger, like squeezing the toothpaste tube from the middle instead of the bottom. A–In most instances, people are able to deal with those differences. It’s the sexuality, alcoholism, drugs. And of course instances of physical abuse. Q–What about kids in a divorce? A–Kids complicate the issue tremendously. I’ve probably represented almost 1,000 kids as (a court-appointed representative) or as attorney. Kids are absolutely phenomenal. They not only know (with which parent) they ought to be, but without knowing it, they give you the legal reasons. They have an uncanny instinct about what’s best for them. Q–What advice would you give a couple contemplating getting married? A–That they go for marriage counseling. I like the pre-Cana program that the Catholic Church offers. Q–What kinds of issues would good marital counseling cover? A–Sexual beliefs and expectations, money, children and raising them. What the division of labor in the household will be. Q–What can counseling bring to light? A–Bad habits. If a person has drinking, drug, gambling or violent proclivities, run the other way. — ===== This post was from Paul Botts:

Response:

Question:

Hi Arlene, Thank you for responding to my post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Does anyone know if Zanax (sp?) affects low-carbing at all?  I am under quite a bit of stress lately and am having anxiety problems.  (Going to school and work full-time and driving 3-4 hours a day). I would really like to know, because I might ask for a prescription of this. Thanks, Kathy I’m sad for you that low-carbing didn’t have the calming effect for you that it did for me and my 15-year old. He and I are (were) prone to panic and anxiety, he to the "clinical diagnosis" point. So I have a little experience with this type of drug.

Yes, under normal circumstances, this does calm me down.  But I am under just so much stress that even this can’t help me.  I imagine it’d be a lot worse if I went Off the diet though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree that sometimes we do need to take strong measures to control anxiety. Let’s face it – excessive anxiety can affect one’s quality of life, not to mention our health! And sometimes drugs ARE necessary. I don’t know exactly how the Xanax might affect low-carbing. My son hasn’t had to take it much since beginning Atkins. But let me share with you some things I’ve learned about stress in general, cause it sounds like you have an over-abundance of it right now. Stress can kill – that’s right! UNRELIEVED stress, that is. Now that I’ve got your attention, <bg I’ll tell you what several good doctors and therapists have told me over the years, in no particular order: -You must set priorities to decide what stressors you can live without. No one else can really do that for you – only you. It it’s too much for you to do alone, I suggest a visit with the counselor of your choice. If the stress is truly overwhelming, you should try to get rid of at least some of the stressors before trying medication. Or use the medication only until you can think clearly enough to set priorities.

Fortunately, this is my last semester at school.  But I think if I had some medication it’d help alleviate some of my symptoms.  Right now I am incapable of doing it all – I just sleep when I should be doing homework. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Drugs should never be a first line of defense for stress. They can help, sure, but always take the least dosage for the shortest amount of time that you can. To take them any other way might be like putting a bandaid on a pumping artery! -Make yourself take some time to feed yourself spiritually. Say a prayer, light a candle, hug a tree! Or hug someone you’re close to. You’d be surprised how peace-inducing such a simple act can be. Or do something for someone else, as you have the time and resources. -Make time to LAUGH! Laughter is very stress-relieving; I personally think that there isn’t ENOUGH laughter in our serious, too goal-driven world. -Sometimes we get tunnel-vision; we are so wrapped up in whatever crisis we’re dealing with that we lose sight of our priorities. In other words, WE TAKE ON TOO MUCH! I know that I have, and I might again. And I suspect that you might have, too. I don’t know your daily life, of course, so I might be presuming too much. But going by what you’ve posted, you might need to do a little priority-setting of your own.

Right now I am working 16-18 hour days – I work full-time, go to school almost full time, and travel 3-4 hours a day between both. -Trying to diet during a seriously stressed situation may not be so good for the old bod’ – or the anxiety level!  Atkins is a wonderful diet, but it does demand strict adherence to it, plus cooking, careful label-reading and shopping, and so on. If you’re under serious stress or time-pressure, it might not work for you. Or you might need to modify it to make it easier for you to do it right.

Oh, no, I find it the best due to my time constraints.  I have a can of nuts in my knapsack and I grab Atkin’s bars for breakfast. – Make every effort to plan your day, even organizing the night before if you think it will help. If you find that you run out of "day" before you run out of "things to do," then you REALLY need to consider my priority-setting advice! Well, it isn’t in quite the nutshell I intended it to be, but that’s what I think about dieting, drugs, and stress. Thanks for bearing with me.

Thanks for the advice.  I know things are gonna get better after I graduate, but I need help in the meantime! Arlene 276/259/160 —started Atkins 2/21/99 http://people.delphi.com/elizjack/lowcarb.txt http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/LowcarbingDream/MiniFAQ.html

– Kathy 280/255/150 1/1/99

Response:

dear kathy, i hope that you will be able to SLOW DOWN and eliminate the things from your life that are making it so hectic! READ AND POST, EVERYDAY! ROSIE are you tired of overeating?  Read this: CHOCOLATE IS MY KRYPTONITE http://members.aol.com/saguaropub/website/htmls/chocolate.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Does anyone know if Zanax (sp?) affects low-carbing at all?  I am under quite a bit of stress lately and am having anxiety problems.  (Going to school and work full-time and driving 3-4 hours a day). I would really like to know, because I might ask for a prescription of this. Thanks, Kathy

Response:

writes: Thanks for the advice.  I know things are gonna get better after I graduate, but I need help in the meantime!

I’m glad that my post helped you. It sounds as though your stress is going to be fairly short-term, and that you DO have your priorities straight. In other words, I think you’re on the right track here. In this situation, the Xanax might be a good choice for you, especially since you’re looking at it as a short-term measure only. Also, it does sounds as though you’re working hard to make low-carbing work for you during this difficult time. Eliminating sugar and white flour is ALWAYS good, don’t you think? So if it were me, I’d ask for a short round of Xanax, plus make sure I got plenty of sleep. And LAUGH as much as possible. <g Of course, reading this newsgroup might be just the ticket for my "laughter prescription." Glad I was able to help. Arlene 276/259/160 —started Atkins 2/21/99 http://people.delphi.com/elizjack/lowcarb.txt http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm   http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/LowcarbingDream/MiniFAQ.html

Response:

Hi, Does anyone know if Zanax (sp?) affects low-carbing at all?  I am under quite a bit of stress lately and am having anxiety problems.  (Going to school and work full-time and driving 3-4 hours a day). I would really like to know, because I might ask for a prescription of this. Thanks, Kathy

Response:

writes: Does anyone know if Zanax (sp?) affects low-carbing at all?  I am under quite

a bit of stress lately and am having anxiety problems.  (Going to school and work full-time and driving 3-4 hours a day). I would really like to know, because I might ask for a prescription of this. Thanks, Kathy

I’m sad for you that low-carbing didn’t have the calming effect for you that it did for me and my 15-year old. He and I are (were) prone to panic and anxiety, he to the "clinical diagnosis" point. So I have a little experience with this type of drug. I agree that sometimes we do need to take strong measures to control anxiety. Let’s face it – excessive anxiety can affect one’s quality of life, not to mention our health! And sometimes drugs ARE necessary. I don’t know exactly how the Xanax might affect low-carbing. My son hasn’t had to take it much since beginning Atkins. But let me share with you some things I’ve learned about stress in general, cause it sounds like you have an over-abundance of it right now. Stress can kill – that’s right! UNRELIEVED stress, that is. Now that I’ve got your attention, <bg I’ll tell you what several good doctors and therapists have told me over the years, in no particular order: -You must set priorities to decide what stressors you can live without. No one else can really do that for you – only you. It it’s too much for you to do alone, I suggest a visit with the counselor of your choice. If the stress is truly overwhelming, you should try to get rid of at least some of the stressors before trying medication. Or use the medication only until you can think clearly enough to set priorities. -Drugs should never be a first line of defense for stress. They can help, sure, but always take the least dosage for the shortest amount of time that you can. To take them any other way might be like putting a bandaid on a pumping artery! -Make yourself take some time to feed yourself spiritually. Say a prayer, light a candle, hug a tree! Or hug someone you’re close to. You’d be surprised how peace-inducing such a simple act can be. Or do something for someone else, as you have the time and resources. -Make time to LAUGH! Laughter is very stress-relieving; I personally think that there isn’t ENOUGH laughter in our serious, too goal-driven world. -Sometimes we get tunnel-vision; we are so wrapped up in whatever crisis we’re dealing with that we lose sight of our priorities. In other words, WE TAKE ON TOO MUCH! I know that I have, and I might again. And I suspect that you might have, too. I don’t know your daily life, of course, so I might be presuming too much. But going by what you’ve posted, you might need to do a little priority-setting of your own. -Trying to diet during a seriously stressed situation may not be so good for the old bod’ – or the anxiety level!  Atkins is a wonderful diet, but it does demand strict adherence to it, plus cooking, careful label-reading and shopping, and so on. If you’re under serious stress or time-pressure, it might not work for you. Or you might need to modify it to make it easier for you to do it right. – Make every effort to plan your day, even organizing the night before if you think it will help. If you find that you run out of "day" before you run out of "things to do," then you REALLY need to consider my priority-setting advice! Well, it isn’t in quite the nutshell I intended it to be, but that’s what I think about dieting, drugs, and stress. Thanks for bearing with me. Arlene 276/259/160 —started Atkins 2/21/99 http://people.delphi.com/elizjack/lowcarb.txt http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm   http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/LowcarbingDream/MiniFAQ.html

Response:

I have a prescription for alprazolam (the generic) to take as needed for panic attacks. I find that it I stick pretty strictly with LC however I almost never need to take them. I don’t know if it affects the diet or not because I don’t take them enough to really tell – maybe one a month on average. — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Does anyone know if Zanax (sp?) affects low-carbing at all?  I am under quite a bit of stress lately and am having anxiety problems.  (Going to school and work full-time and driving 3-4 hours a day). I would really like to know, because I might ask for a prescription of this.

Response:

I have a prescription for generic Xanax which the doctor gave me a couple years ago, supposed to take a tablet if I feel a panic attack coming on. When I first got them I was suffering severely from panic attacks and was taking about 2 a day, but slowly the attacks subsided. Now I take one about once  every 2-3 months. In fact I can’t remember the last time I had one – maybe last June or so. I never knew they were supposed to be addictive. OTOH when I had knee surgery 17 years ago I was in incredible pain, and the only thing that helped was codeine. The doctor did not want to prescribe it because he said that it can be addictive too, but I begged for relief and he finally gave it to me, and for 3-4 months I popped codeine several times a day like it was candy. Then the pain finally stopped and I stopped taking the pills. Never a moment’s problem with giving them up when the pain stopped. How long must one be on these sorts of things to develop an addiction? Only thing in my life I’ve ever had trouble giving up was carbs. — Debbie Cusick "When I get a little money I buy books: and if any is left over I buy food and clothes. "  - Erasmus Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have first hand knowledge of this. Indeed I was addicted to xanax for quite some time. When I finally tired to quit using it.. I was in for a big surprise….. I have never been so ill in my life… ended

Response:

Debbie, Some people are more prone to addiction than others.  If someone is already suffering from an addiction (alcohol, cgarettes, gambling, you name it) it is much more difficult not to become addicted to something such as pain pill.  Some people it could take a matter of days,  others, months or years. It’s rumored that there may be a genetic predisposition toward addiction in some people.  I’m not sure if it’s true,  but the thought of it makes me extra careful as I’ve seen what addiction has done to my father.  I’m glad you’re not prone to it!  It must be very relieving.  However, working in a pharmacy I’ve seen people desperate for pain meds or anything like xanax, ativan, valium, and those are just some of the weaker ones. Sarah 238/216/150 9/20/99 Atkins/PP he said that it can be addictive too, but I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -begged for relief and he finally gave it to me, and for 3-4 months I popped codeine several times a day like it was candy. Then the pain finally stopped and I stopped taking the pills. Never a moment’s problem with giving them up when the pain stopped. How long must one be on these sorts of things to develop an addiction?

Response:

I too started taking xanax for panic attacks…. I tend toward the excessive… so when it works so well (an fast!) for my panic attacks, I naturally started taking them all the time…  its a great drug… just easily adbused ’cause it makes ya fell so damn good! glad u can use it so very occasionally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a prescription for generic Xanax which the doctor gave me a couple years ago, supposed to take a tablet if I feel a panic attack coming on. When I first got them I was suffering severely from panic attacks and was taking about 2 a day, but slowly the attacks subsided. Now I take one about once  every 2-3 months. In fact I can’t remember the last time I had one – maybe last June or so. I never knew they were supposed to be addictive. OTOH when I had knee surgery 17 years ago I was in incredible pain, and the only thing that helped was codeine. The doctor did not want to prescribe it because he said that it can be addictive too, but I begged for relief and he finally gave it to me, and for 3-4 months I popped codeine several times a day like it was candy. Then the pain finally stopped and I stopped taking the pills. Never a moment’s problem with giving them up when the pain stopped. How long must one be on these sorts of things to develop an addiction? Only thing in my life I’ve ever had trouble giving up was carbs.

Response:

Yeah, except for carbs I don’t seem to be addiction prone. I have ingested various things over the years that are said to be highly addictive, and never had the least trouble giving any of them up – except for the darn carbs of course. I think I *am* a sugar and/or chocolate addict. — Debbie Cusick "When I get a little money I buy books: and if any is left over I buy food and clothes. "  - Erasmus Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Debbie, Some people are more prone to addiction than others.  If someone is already suffering from an addiction (alcohol, cgarettes, gambling, you name it) it is much more difficult not to become addicted to something such as pain pill.

Response:

I have first hand knowledge of this. Indeed I was addicted to xanax for quite some time. When I finally tired to quit using it.. I was in for a big surprise….. I have never been so ill in my life… ended months to feel "normal" again…I had extreme insomnia….. felt like I would go insane.. While I was in the hospital I spoke to other Xanax addicted users… some had been detoxed many times…. just could not stay off the stuff..  I realize that not everyone will become addicted ….. but for me it was bad news… I’ll never touch it again – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Xanax never did a thing for me.  But I know a lot of people who abuse the stuff.  Using it to get to sleep is not abuse, but a lot of people think it’s fashionable to mix it with alcohol to improve the buzz.  That is just plain dangerous.  Be very careful taking this stuff, and don’t take more than you’re doctor has prescribed! Am I done ranting yet?  ummmm….Yes. Sorry if I stepped on any toes. Sarah dear fran, my concern with the use of Zanax is the fact that it has been known to be addictive. be very careful! — read and post everyday, its a commitment! rosie of others heavier                             bill w. I take 1.5 everynight to help with anxiety and to make me sleep, I start induction Sunday (again) Oct 31st, do you think this will have any effect on weightloss. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

Xanax never did a thing for me.  But I know a lot of people who abuse the stuff.  Using it to get to sleep is not abuse, but a lot of people think it’s fashionable to mix it with alcohol to improve the buzz.  That is just plain dangerous.  Be very careful taking this stuff, and don’t take more than you’re doctor has prescribed! Am I done ranting yet?  ummmm….Yes. Sorry if I stepped on any toes. Sarah

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -dear fran, my concern with the use of Zanax is the fact that it has been known to be addictive. be very careful! — read and post everyday, its a commitment! rosie of others heavier                             bill w. I take 1.5 everynight to help with anxiety and to make me sleep, I start induction Sunday (again) Oct 31st, do you think this will have any effect on weightloss. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

I take 1.5 everynight to help with anxiety and to make me sleep, I start induction Sunday (again) Oct 31st, do you think this will have any effect on weightloss. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

I take 1.5 everynight to help with anxiety and to make me sleep, I start induction Sunday (again) Oct 31st, do you think this will have any effect on weightloss. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

I have a prescription for 50  Xanax. I occasionally take one for sleeplessness. I always am able to renew the script because the bottle lasts four months, at least. A single tablet leaves me with a big hangover. But I do sleep. — Diva See You Lighter

Response:

dear fran, my concern with the use of Zanax is the fact that it has been known to be addictive. be very careful! — read and post everyday, its a commitment! rosie of others heavier                              bill w.

I take 1.5 everynight to help with anxiety and to make me sleep, I start induction Sunday (again) Oct 31st, do you think this will have any effect on weightloss. <Life is a blessing make everyday special

Response:

Question:

Oh boy . . . We were *so* full of shit back then, weren’t we? ) But hey, it was fun! Janie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi John and Janie.. sorry about that  "at your age stuff",, I wasn’t meaning to be patronizing.   It’s hard to avoid the fact that older people often do have more experience. I’ll defend myself to that extent.Each of those questions that John asked triggered a memory, some of them twenty years old., of situations I’ve  been in. The question about "Am I insecure if I can’t do an open relationship" recalled a couple i knew ages ago, she had read some novel that was popular at the time, in which a 3 person marriage was glorified.  She used that to pressure her husband into accepting her lover as a part of their marriage. Then he turned to me to get involved too.  (I didn’t) There were many agonizing discussions lasting till dawn. Wrestling with all those "BIG CONCEPTS".  I remember in those years we all thought we could build lives and relationships that were entirely different from the rest of society. In retrospect it was so bogus… she just wanted to sleep with this other guy,,, and got all of us caught up in this insane intense self-examination about why we couldn’t overcome our social conditioning and live a truly free life.  Oh boy…. -raven

– Happiness is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to deal with it. To reply via email replace "JLT" with "janiet"

Response:

Ditto what Victoria said.  When I got to the "at your age" parts, I bristled a little – the sense of someone being my mother rather than my equal friend.  I think the advice you gave is excellent for all of us, Joanne – at any age.  The vast majority of us are having relationship difficulties, and I’d bet we cover a pretty wide age range here.  Great post! Janie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is great advice, Joanne – not just for 20-somethings, but for everybody. Victoria. Question about newsgroup culture: are there regulars here? Or do people come here, mourn, and "graduate?"  I suspect a mixture, but it’s an interesting question. all of the above and more… personally, I’m back here after about a 1.5-2 year absence. Combination of things… including a dreadful sexist flame war that broke out, i think it was early 1997. Anyway, I hope that I can be as helpful to y’all as y’all have been to me.  Therein lies the rub, though.  I’m a twentysomething. I’ve got only a little life experience and no predefined belief system.  I find that much of the cultural programming I went through when I was a kid is inadequate in the face of my adult life. So now I’m left to answer questions on my own. Bingo!  welcome to the real world….  At the rate things are moving,, some of what  we learned about being an adult is  obsolete by the time we get there.. But general morals and ethics and good judgement are timeless. If you’ve got a good grounding in thinking for yourself  you’ll be ok. Questions like, is monogamy the only way to conduct a relationship? lots of us have been thru that one especially those of us who ’survived’ the sixties (-; Human nature makes it very difficult to sustain a group relationship, no matter how wonderful and idealistic it seems in literature. Most people find pairing feels most natural and comfortable. Is the idea of true eternal love — eternal love… my guess is you’ll look back on yourself when you’re 35 and 45 etc… and realize how much you’ve changed. Yes, there are some marriages that last huge long lengths of time….my guess is they are either very rigid and unaccepting of change (stagnant),, or be flexible enough to allow each person to grow. ANother big issue is how good you are at choosing your lovers. Unfortunately you’ve got a lot of negative examples here.. but this too is instructive. that one person can satisfy another physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually, til death do ‘em part — even reasonable? If you mean can you have a connection to someone on all those levels? I’d say yes.  BUt if you mean that ALL needs are satisfied by one person, like neither of you need or want anyone one else, no other friends… definitely NO! As you get older and further away from college, you’ll likely find how difficult it is to have the engaging and stimulating conversations and friendships you had so easily in school.  We need variety and challenge and fun… it’s just asking too much of one person to provide everything for us.. For one thing,, we need periods of solitude,, so maybe you want to go play, and your lover/best friend wants to write or meditate. Peoples needs don’t always coincide. We need the freedom to be free of each other at times..or the relationship becomes a burden and smothering. In a long term relationship these things are always being juggled negotiated, compromised… hopefully to mutual benefit. Sex might be the hardest part.. since we generally want to have monogamous relationships…  we have to learn how to accommodate differences , rather than looking for satisfaction elsewhere. Is it reasonable to ask someone to devote themselves totally to me?  How can I possibly make that request when I’m caught up in a totally selfish pursuit like writing? You could do it,, but I bet you’d get bored with someone who would be willing to do that.. totally devote themselves to you.  And how much respect would you have for that person. … for some reason people are fascinated with this concept, of ‘total devotion".   What is it? Does this mean when you go skiing, and I don’t ski, that I sit at home and wait for you instead of doing something I enjoy?  Does it mean the tv is always on what you like? That your opinions, needs, desires always have priority over mine? Does it mean we have no children (since they would compete for my attention- BIG TIME) . does it mean I don’t have a career or activities I love, or other friends? Am I just sitting around at your call? Where do you draw the line between "total devotion" and "total dominance"? And where is the ‘mutuality"… are you totally devoted to her?  Frankly, I think the longing for total devotion is immature, it’s the relationship between a mother and infant.  Commitment is another issue…. If I were a more secure person, could I conduct an open relationship? I assume you mean seuxally open.. My answer is the twow things are unrelated.  Alot of people suffer thru this at your age.  You’ll be involved with someone who wants to have their cake and eat it too.. and they’ll try to  B.S. you into accepting it by telling you you’re insecure if you can’t handle it. Don’t buy it, you’re being manipulated. This is not to say that it is impossible, some people  do this,,, but not being willing to do it does not mean you are insecure.. You have the right to define what does and doesn’t work for you in a relationship. How much of my anger is due to the fact that my ex is getting laid regularly and loving it whereas I’m scaring off any available potential partner I meet? she left, you feel angry and rejected and sad.  Sex is a big issue for most 20-something guys… very powerful.  Maybe you need to slow down,,, are you trying to ‘catch up’ with her… maybe you’re scaring off women  by pushing them into sex too hard and too soon. How could anything other than insecurity be at the heart of my jealousy for all of my ex’s cyber-lovers? Maybe jealousy is at the heart of your jealousy…. We all go through a period of insecurity when we are rejected, especially after a long relationship…. for a young man, 3 years IS a long time. And, most importantly, was I a whole person when I was with my ex, and if not, how can I become one now? Well, for one thing… I think possibly your ideas about "eternal love" and "total devotion" are hooking you into the idea you could only be complete when you are with your ‘true love". you’ll grope and flounder and stumble your way through it with the rest of us. Very very few people have lives of continuous smooth sailing..   we have derailed romances, disappointing jobs, we’re bored, we don’t like our bosses, we lose money in the stock market, our cars break down, our kids wreck our cars, our dogs throw up in our cars. We get raises, promotions, get fired. We start businesses, we make money, lose money. and on and on …..and you’re always learning and looking back at yourself and realizing how naive you were. Life is just one day at a time… I know in my 20’s i tended to think in Grand Concepts. But life is the little decisions, hundreds of them, that you make everyday, as well as the big ones. I know now I look back at decisions I made without realizing at the time I was at a critical crossroads in my life. The beauty of 20-20 hindsight. And I find myself evaluating every potential social situation for the likelihood that it will bring me into contact with a desirable, available, and non-evil member of your sex, which strikes me as a dumb way to go about things. I’m thinking I should throttle back on the gotta-get-laid impulse, and devote some time to healing. see? you’re figuring out alot already. -raven

– The really happy person is the one who can enjoy the scenery when he has to take a detour. To reply via email replace "JLT" with "janiet"

Response:

As always, sad to see you here John, but welcome. This has been a great place for me find people I really like, and can feel connected to.  I’m in a brand new city myself, and don’t know anyone locally yet.  This is also a place where very heated (and sometimes ugly) debates on personal views of relationships, familly, ethics, morality, and communication take place.  They can sometimes get your adrenaline flowing, get you engaged (like your ex could), but usually don’t result in any fatalities.  If you can find humor amid the strife, they pass soon enough (the wars *and* the uncomfortable feelings they bring out in you).  It was really tough for me, when I first started reading and posting here, with one such debate/flame war going on.  It triggered a lot of old childhood stuff about not wanting people around me to be fighting.  Someone mentioned that in one of the posts though, and I caught it and was able to let it go.  (Much easier than when I recently became a real-life participant in one – but that too can be let go.) So, if you haven’t been scared off reading for a week, jump right in and post to your heart’s content.  Its a warm, friendly way to feel connected to others while you evaluate the things about relationships that are of value to you.  Share your thoughts and feelings and others will do the same.  Its such a diverse group, I can’t imagine everyone ever agreeing on anything – not even Daisy’s jokes (though *most* love them). Janie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks.  Found this group last weekend, did some reading, and thought I’d delurk and share. At the end of August, my five-year-old common-law relationship ended. Prior to that, we’d been sliding apart.  We used to pride ourselves on the way we carried on our separate hobbies — she as a medievalist, me as an SF writer — while still making time for each other.  But somewhere along the line, she says, she started to feel trapped by our relationship.  She started treating me coldly, both physically and emotionally.  Finally, I gave her an ultimatum, that she try harder or we end it. She declined, and I’m here. Of course, I’m not blameless in all this.  She got to see every side of my personality during our relationship, and not all of them are angelic.  Certainly, I have regrets about specific incidents where I did not do right by her.  But on the whole, I think I treated her pretty well.  I tried to get along with her friends; I tried to develop a relationship with her parents; I tried to make her feel special.  I was not physically abusive.  Emotionally abusive?  Not habitually, no, though there were times when I treated her unkindly.  I am certain, though, that my feelings for her were genuine, even if sometime I didn’t express them adequately.  But in the end, she was not interested. She had been unfaithful, after a fashion.  Last year, I caught her necking and groping with an ex-boyfriend on the sidewalk in front of our house. I confronted her and threatened to leave, but she begged me not to.  Since then, I know that she had at least two cyber-affairs with men she met through the local medievalist group.  I suspect that both had physical elements to them, although she swears (and, strangely enough, I believe her) that she was never totally unfaithful to me, in the Catholic sense of the word.  She’s taken up with one of the cyberhoneys now.  That hurts.  I feel like I’ve been discarded. I guess I should consider myself lucky compared to many of the other members of this group.  We had no kids, no compromising photos, and she said that she didn’t want to lose me as a best friend.  It took us about thirty minutes to divide our possessions.  There was no need to involve lawyers.  I am committed to having a non-antagonistic relationship with her, because we have several mutual friends to whom I’m quite attached.  But when I see her, I just emotionally choke. It was especially difficult last week, when we went out for dinner as a kind of good-bye — she’s moved to a town a couple of hours away — and I saw  that she’d dyed her hair.  Something as stupid as that, just a visual reminder that she’s moving on without me, totally messed me up. She’s expressed concern to me about my emotional state, and seems genuinely wanting to help me through this, but I want to keep her at arms’ length right now.  I’m afraid to let her into my head again. Rationally I know that our split is for the best, but I can’t convince myself of that  emotionally.  At least not yet. I’ve tried to date, but I think I come across as hopelessly screwed up.  I’ve got a decent self image; I consider myself pleasant and interesting, and definitely not ugly, but women are shying away from me right now.  Given my current mindset, I’m not surprised. I figure that posting here and talking to you folks might help me to clear that mindset.  And I’d certainly like to make face-to-face contact with a divorce support group in Ottawa.  I’ve done web searches, and have found something in Kanata, but I’d like something a little closer to home. Anyway, thanks for listening, and glad to meetcha. John.

– The really happy person is the one who can enjoy the scenery when he has to take a detour. To reply via email replace "JLT" with "janiet"

Response:

Welcome to the group.  I am also very new here,a few days old you could say. But I have found you can say what is on your mind without the usually comments from the other world.  I can’t really give you advise,but I think you should get out more.  There are allot of other women, better women,than her.   Wendy Bart

Response:

John, Hate to say this, but welcome to the group. Before jumping into dating, take time to let yourself heal. It isn’t something you will get over overnight. You need to learn to like yourself again, enjoy being by yourself and doing for yourself. Once you do that you will find being around others easier. Take care of yourself and post whenever you need to blow off steam. Good luck, kbird – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks.  Found this group last weekend, did some reading, and thought I’d delurk and share. At the end of August, my five-year-old common-law relationship ended. Prior to that, we’d been sliding apart.  We used to pride ourselves on the way we carried on our separate hobbies — she as a medievalist, me as an SF writer — while still making time for each other.  But somewhere along the line, she says, she started to feel trapped by our relationship.  She started treating me coldly, both physically and emotionally.  Finally, I gave her an ultimatum, that she try harder or we end it. She declined, and I’m here. Of course, I’m not blameless in all this.  She got to see every side of my personality during our relationship, and not all of them are angelic.  Certainly, I have regrets about specific incidents where I did not do right by her.  But on the whole, I think I treated her pretty well.  I tried to get along with her friends; I tried to develop a relationship with her parents; I tried to make her feel special.  I was not physically abusive.  Emotionally abusive?  Not habitually, no, though there were times when I treated her unkindly.  I am certain, though, that my feelings for her were genuine, even if sometime I didn’t express them adequately.  But in the end, she was not interested. She had been unfaithful, after a fashion.  Last year, I caught her necking and groping with an ex-boyfriend on the sidewalk in front of our house. I confronted her and threatened to leave, but she begged me not to.  Since then, I know that she had at least two cyber-affairs with men she met through the local medievalist group.  I suspect that both had physical elements to them, although she swears (and, strangely enough, I believe her) that she was never totally unfaithful to me, in the Catholic sense of the word.  She’s taken up with one of the cyberhoneys now.  That hurts.  I feel like I’ve been discarded. I guess I should consider myself lucky compared to many of the other members of this group.  We had no kids, no compromising photos, and she said that she didn’t want to lose me as a best friend.  It took us about thirty minutes to divide our possessions.  There was no need to involve lawyers.  I am committed to having a non-antagonistic relationship with her, because we have several mutual friends to whom I’m quite attached.  But when I see her, I just emotionally choke. It was especially difficult last week, when we went out for dinner as a kind of good-bye — she’s moved to a town a couple of hours away — and I saw  that she’d dyed her hair.  Something as stupid as that, just a visual reminder that she’s moving on without me, totally messed me up. She’s expressed concern to me about my emotional state, and seems genuinely wanting to help me through this, but I want to keep her at arms’ length right now.  I’m afraid to let her into my head again. Rationally I know that our split is for the best, but I can’t convince myself of that  emotionally.  At least not yet. I’ve tried to date, but I think I come across as hopelessly screwed up.  I’ve got a decent self image; I consider myself pleasant and interesting, and definitely not ugly, but women are shying away from me right now.  Given my current mindset, I’m not surprised. I figure that posting here and talking to you folks might help me to clear that mindset.  And I’d certainly like to make face-to-face contact with a divorce support group in Ottawa.  I’ve done web searches, and have found something in Kanata, but I’d like something a little closer to home. Anyway, thanks for listening, and glad to meetcha. John.

Response:

Hi John; sorry to hear you’re joining the ranks.  I can relate to some of your feelings; it just takes time.  Not much comfort, I know, but it’s true.  Don’t feel bad that dating hasn’t worked out so far; it’s going to take time.  Maybe you aren’t ready yet. to me, in the Catholic sense of the word.  She’s taken up with one of the cyberhoneys now.  That hurts.  I feel like I’ve been discarded.

I can sympathise; all you can do is remind yourself that you’re okay as a person regardless of her choices.  It’s going to hurt, for a while, but it does fade in time.  Don’t ignore your feelings, but don’t let them own you either. — ‘I was lined up for glory, but the tickets sold out in advance….’                 -N. Peart, ‘The Big Wheel’

Response:

Hi John, I don’t want to say "welcome" because that just doesn’t cut it. You sound like a very level headed, compassionate person….you are right when you say you should keep her at arms length….hell I’d keep her alot farther than that.  Keep your chin up, it will get better, you will find someone deserving of what you have to offer.  In the meantime, sit back and talk with the friends you have made here on this newsgroup…..we just love to listen!  :) Daisy Official word from Washington is that Al Gore is now just an orgasm away from being President of the United States.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi folks.  Found this group last weekend, did some reading, and thought I’d delurk and share. At the end of August, my five-year-old common-law relationship ended. Prior to that, we’d been sliding apart.  We used to pride ourselves on the way we carried on our separate hobbies — she as a medievalist, me as an SF writer — while still making time for each other.  But somewhere along the line, she says, she started to feel trapped by our relationship.  She started treating me coldly, both physically and emotionally.  Finally, I gave her an ultimatum, that she try harder or we end it. She declined, and I’m here. Of course, I’m not blameless in all this.  She got to see every side of my personality during our relationship, and not all of them are angelic.  Certainly, I have regrets about specific incidents where I did not do right by her.  But on the whole, I think I treated her pretty well.  I tried to get along with her friends; I tried to develop a relationship with her parents; I tried to make her feel special.  I was not physically abusive.  Emotionally abusive?  Not habitually, no, though there were times when I treated her unkindly.  I am certain, though, that my feelings for her were genuine, even if sometime I didn’t express them adequately.  But in the end, she was not interested. She had been unfaithful, after a fashion.  Last year, I caught her necking and groping with an ex-boyfriend on the sidewalk in front of our house. I confronted her and threatened to leave, but she begged me not to.  Since then, I know that she had at least two cyber-affairs with men she met through the local medievalist group.  I suspect that both had physical elements to them, although she swears (and, strangely enough, I believe her) that she was never totally unfaithful to me, in the Catholic sense of the word.  She’s taken up with one of the cyberhoneys now.  That hurts.  I feel like I’ve been discarded. I guess I should consider myself lucky compared to many of the other members of this group.  We had no kids, no compromising photos, and she said that she didn’t want to lose me as a best friend.  It took us about thirty minutes to divide our possessions.  There was no need to involve lawyers.  I am committed to having a non-antagonistic relationship with her, because we have several mutual friends to whom I’m quite attached.  But when I see her, I just emotionally choke. It was especially difficult last week, when we went out for dinner as a kind of good-bye — she’s moved to a town a couple of hours away — and I saw  that she’d dyed her hair.  Something as stupid as that, just a visual reminder that she’s moving on without me, totally messed me up. She’s expressed concern to me about my emotional state, and seems genuinely wanting to help me through this, but I want to keep her at arms’ length right now.  I’m afraid to let her into my head again. Rationally I know that our split is for the best, but I can’t convince myself of that  emotionally.  At least not yet. I’ve tried to date, but I think I come across as hopelessly screwed up.  I’ve got a decent self image; I consider myself pleasant and interesting, and definitely not ugly, but women are shying away from me right now.  Given my current mindset, I’m not surprised. I figure that posting here and talking to you folks might help me to clear that mindset.  And I’d certainly like to make face-to-face contact with a divorce support group in Ottawa.  I’ve done web searches, and have found something in Kanata, but I’d like something a little closer to home. Anyway, thanks for listening, and glad to meetcha. John.

Response:

John,         First any of your SF published ? I’m an SFnut <bg. Next welcome and it sounds like you have a great perspective and are aware of the pain of separation and what it’s doing to you. Suggestions ? Not many…, try to be socially active but try not to drink too much. Look to friends to help out especially in regards to the "alone" feeling. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi folks.  Found this group last weekend, did some reading, and thought I’d delurk and share. At the end of August, my five-year-old common-law relationship ended. Prior to that, we’d been sliding apart.  We used to pride ourselves on the way we carried on our separate hobbies — she as a medievalist, me as an SF writer — while still making time for each other.  But somewhere along the line, she says, she started to feel trapped by our relationship.  She started treating me coldly, both physically and emotionally.  Finally, I gave her an ultimatum, that she try harder or we end it. She declined, and I’m here. Of course, I’m not blameless in all this.  She got to see every side of my personality during our relationship, and not all of them are angelic.  Certainly, I have regrets about specific incidents where I did not do right by her.  But on the whole, I think I treated her pretty well.  I tried to get along with her friends; I tried to develop a relationship with her parents; I tried to make her feel special.  I was not physically abusive.  Emotionally abusive?  Not habitually, no, though there were times when I treated her unkindly.  I am certain, though, that my feelings for her were genuine, even if sometime I didn’t express them adequately.  But in the end, she was not interested. She had been unfaithful, after a fashion.  Last year, I caught her necking and groping with an ex-boyfriend on the sidewalk in front of our house. I confronted her and threatened to leave, but she begged me not to.  Since then, I know that she had at least two cyber-affairs with men she met through the local medievalist group.  I suspect that both had physical elements to them, although she swears (and, strangely enough, I believe her) that she was never totally unfaithful to me, in the Catholic sense of the word.  She’s taken up with one of the cyberhoneys now.  That hurts.  I feel like I’ve been discarded. I guess I should consider myself lucky compared to many of the other members of this group.  We had no kids, no compromising photos, and she said that she didn’t want to lose me as a best friend.  It took us about thirty minutes to divide our possessions.  There was no need to involve lawyers.  I am committed to having a non-antagonistic relationship with her, because we have several mutual friends to whom I’m quite attached.  But when I see her, I just emotionally choke. It was especially difficult last week, when we went out for dinner as a kind of good-bye — she’s moved to a town a couple of hours away — and I saw  that she’d dyed her hair.  Something as stupid as that, just a visual reminder that she’s moving on without me, totally messed me up. She’s expressed concern to me about my emotional state, and seems genuinely wanting to help me through this, but I want to keep her at arms’ length right now.  I’m afraid to let her into my head again. Rationally I know that our split is for the best, but I can’t convince myself of that  emotionally.  At least not yet. I’ve tried to date, but I think I come across as hopelessly screwed up.  I’ve got a decent self image; I consider myself pleasant and interesting, and definitely not ugly, but women are shying away from me right now.  Given my current mindset, I’m not surprised. I figure that posting here and talking to you folks might help me to clear that mindset.  And I’d certainly like to make face-to-face contact with a divorce support group in Ottawa.  I’ve done web searches, and have found something in Kanata, but I’d like something a little closer to home. Anyway, thanks for listening, and glad to meetcha. John.

Response:

Hi folks.  Found this group last weekend, did some reading, and thought I’d delurk and share. At the end of August, my five-year-old common-law relationship ended. Prior to that, we’d been sliding apart.  We used to pride ourselves on the way we carried on our separate hobbies — she as a medievalist, me as an SF writer — while still making time for each other.  But somewhere along the line, she says, she started to feel trapped by our relationship.  She started treating me coldly, both physically and emotionally.  Finally, I gave her an ultimatum, that she try harder or we end it. She declined, and I’m here. Of course, I’m not blameless in all this.  She got to see every side of my personality during our relationship, and not all of them are angelic.  Certainly, I have regrets about specific incidents where I did not do right by her.  But on the whole, I think I treated her pretty well.  I tried to get along with her friends; I tried to develop a relationship with her parents; I tried to make her feel special.  I was not physically abusive.  Emotionally abusive?  Not habitually, no, though there were times when I treated her unkindly.  I am certain, though, that my feelings for her were genuine, even if sometime I didn’t express them adequately.  But in the end, she was not interested. She had been unfaithful, after a fashion.  Last year, I caught her necking and groping with an ex-boyfriend on the sidewalk in front of our house. I confronted her and threatened to leave, but she begged me not to.  Since then, I know that she had at least two cyber-affairs with men she met through the local medievalist group.  I suspect that both had physical elements to them, although she swears (and, strangely enough, I believe her) that she was never totally unfaithful to me, in the Catholic sense of the word.  She’s taken up with one of the cyberhoneys now.  That hurts.  I feel like I’ve been discarded. I guess I should consider myself lucky compared to many of the other members of this group.  We had no kids, no compromising photos, and she said that she didn’t want to lose me as a best friend.  It took us about thirty minutes to divide our possessions.  There was no need to involve lawyers.  I am committed to having a non-antagonistic relationship with her, because we have several mutual friends to whom I’m quite attached.  But when I see her, I just emotionally choke. It was especially difficult last week, when we went out for dinner as a kind of good-bye — she’s moved to a town a couple of hours away — and I saw  that she’d dyed her hair.  Something as stupid as that, just a visual reminder that she’s moving on without me, totally messed me up. She’s expressed concern to me about my emotional state, and seems genuinely wanting to help me through this, but I want to keep her at arms’ length right now.  I’m afraid to let her into my head again. Rationally I know that our split is for the best, but I can’t convince myself of that  emotionally.  At least not yet. I’ve tried to date, but I think I come across as hopelessly screwed up.  I’ve got a decent self image; I consider myself pleasant and interesting, and definitely not ugly, but women are shying away from me right now.  Given my current mindset, I’m not surprised. I figure that posting here and talking to you folks might help me to clear that mindset.  And I’d certainly like to make face-to-face contact with a divorce support group in Ottawa.  I’ve done web searches, and have found something in Kanata, but I’d like something a little closer to home. Anyway, thanks for listening, and glad to meetcha. John.

Response:

Thanks so much for all your support. For Daisy, No, there are no children but Damn…I miss my dog. I gave it to her 5 years ago on valentines day and so I guess it’s her’s. The counseling is going well, had another session yesterday where it came out that I got feelings of well being by trying to "save" her. Hmmm…psycho babble or truth? Something to look at. I did have a good day a couple weeks ago so I’m assuming it will eventually get better.  One funny side note, she has stopped bugging the hell out of me to sign the papers when I told her I was finished and wanted the whole thing over quickly as well.  My journal has helped also. It’s really not good for me to keep some of these thoughts inside, rather get them on paper. I have sporatically kept journals since High School and have always known their value.  Once again gang, thanks a ton for your comforting feed back. I am beginning to realize that I’m not the crazy one.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, her problems are hers and not yours.  You can’t fix them, and you’ll never be able to understand them.  Logic has no place when everything is out of control.  Trying to fit logic into the equation will only frustrate you and make you doubt yourself.  So stop trying to do it… As a person who thrives on logic, on the orderly understanding of how A causes B which begins the motion of C as it rotates within D, I find statements like this one very hard to accept personally, LizardKing – so I thought I’d try a possible explanation for Cdossman in case he also rebels against the idea that what’s happened in his life has no logic.  I believe it does.  This is just one of the interpretations for how marriages are torn apart by addiction, but it makes a lot of sense to me. Imagine you and your partner on a ballroom dance floor.  You are dancing together for the first time, both skilled dancers but not yet comfortable with each other’s movements, so its a little rough.  There is the thrill of holding each other, of your movements as they smoothe out, of the moments when you are in perfect synchronization as though you were destined to dance together.  You are falling in love, and you dance just well enough together to know that you are the right people for each other. In time, as the months and years progress, you become so practiced at dancing together, it is a perfect representation of the fluidity of two moving as one.  Your marriage flows smoothly with the firm knowledge of all you’ve built into it so far, the certainty of each other’s love and the trust that these things are forever. Then, over your shoulder so you didn’t see it, your wife signalled the band to change the tune ever so slightly (this is the moment of triggering the genetic predisposition, I believe, that comes unexpectedly into our lives when we first experience substance abuse).  It was such a subtle change you weren’t sure it was even there, and when you asked your wife she assured you things were the same.  But your wife, in accomodating to the change in rhythm, started lisping a bit to the right when you moved in left-swirling circles, and you had to begin to drag your left foot to compensate for this lisp. After a time of weeks and months, the rhythm of the music and your wife’s drunken movements to compensate for the changes are so obvious, no one can deny them.  But as much as you love her, you would never dream of ending the dance with her.  She promises to return to the way things used to be, you keep compensating for her drunken dancing.  Eventually, you’re both dancing so bizarrely that were a stranger to look at either of you (not together, but individually) he/she would say you were each very sick people.  Yet you are just trying to keep pace with the insanity that addiction/alcohol has brought into your home, your life, your dance with the love of your life.  You’ve been doing it for so long, it almost feels normal, hell some parts of it even seem *logical*!  You’ve been doing it so long, your wife begins to believe that if you weren’t around dancing so drunkenly, she might be able to dance straight, or get clean. This is the saddest part to me.  Although you did not begin this dance of insanity, you have become so adept at it, your partner believes you cannot change.  She believes that if there is any hope of her changing, of her saving her life, she will have to leave you. Well, this is just *one* of the possible scenarios for how it is that addiction that came up *during* a marriage (not before), ends up destroying the marriage.  It is heartbreaking to hear how your wife has gone back to the healthy, wonderful things that you found so attractive, that caused you to fall in love with her – and that she is doing that somehow *because* you are now out of her life.  That’s not really true.  You could change given the time and instruction.  You did not begin this dance of addiction. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise.

I very much like this analogy, as it makes clearer the penalty of leaving things to fester and grow worse, if they are not properly dealt with, as early on as possible. A similar analogy that I use is that of sending a spacecraft off to, say, Mars. Early on in the flight, if it turns out that the craft’s course is a bit off target, a mid course correction is needed. Given the laws of physics, a small correction, well out, will have the same result as a big correction will, if delayed to later. Also, delaying the correction allows for the proper and actual courses to gradually diverge from each other, and at first, the difference will be so slight that it may go unnoticed to the casual observer. But, by the time that it is clear to all, there may not be nough fuel to make the now needed big correction, so the ship misses the planet alltogether, and goes of wandering into the void… The divergence point becomes the defining moment that creates another " time line ", and once left to itself, it eliminates the old one. Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20, if one lets it be so. BTW, thanks for the comments on the thread of " re : help ". You most definitely understood the exact effect that I was going for, in what I wrote. Take a gold star out of petty cash… Godspeed, Janie

Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "                                          David Gelernter, " 1939 "

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First, her problems are hers and not yours.  You can’t fix them, and you’ll never be able to understand them.  Logic has no place when everything is out of control.  Trying to fit logic into the equation will only frustrate you and make you doubt yourself.  So stop trying to do it… As a person who thrives on logic, on the orderly understanding of how A causes B which begins the motion of C as it rotates within D, I find statements like this one very hard to accept personally, LizardKing – so I thought I’d try a possible explanation for Cdossman in case he also rebels against the idea that what’s happened in his life has no logic.  I believe it does.  This is just one of the interpretations for how marriages are torn apart by addiction, but it makes a lot of sense to me. Imagine you and your partner on a ballroom dance floor.  You are dancing together for the first time, both skilled dancers but not yet comfortable with each other’s movements, so its a little rough.  There is the thrill of holding each other, of your movements as they smoothe out, of the moments when you are in perfect synchronization as though you were destined to dance together.  You are falling in love, and you dance just well enough together to know that you are the right people for each other. In time, as the months and years progress, you become so practiced at dancing together, it is a perfect representation of the fluidity of two moving as one.  Your marriage flows smoothly with the firm knowledge of all you’ve built into it so far, the certainty of each other’s love and the trust that these things are forever. Then, over your shoulder so you didn’t see it, your wife signalled the band to change the tune ever so slightly (this is the moment of triggering the genetic predisposition, I believe, that comes unexpectedly into our lives when we first experience substance abuse).  It was such a subtle change you weren’t sure it was even there, and when you asked your wife she assured you things were the same.  But your wife, in accomodating to the change in rhythm, started lisping a bit to the right when you moved in left-swirling circles, and you had to begin to drag your left foot to compensate for this lisp. After a time of weeks and months, the rhythm of the music and your wife’s drunken movements to compensate for the changes are so obvious, no one can deny them.  But as much as you love her, you would never dream of ending the dance with her.  She promises to return to the way things used to be, you keep compensating for her drunken dancing.  Eventually, you’re both dancing so bizarrely that were a stranger to look at either of you (not together, but individually) he/she would say you were each very sick people.  Yet you are just trying to keep pace with the insanity that addiction/alcohol has brought into your home, your life, your dance with the love of your life.  You’ve been doing it for so long, it almost feels normal, hell some parts of it even seem *logical*!  You’ve been doing it so long, your wife begins to believe that if you weren’t around dancing so drunkenly, she might be able to dance straight, or get clean. This is the saddest part to me.  Although you did not begin this dance of insanity, you have become so adept at it, your partner believes you cannot change.  She believes that if there is any hope of her changing, of her saving her life, she will have to leave you. Well, this is just *one* of the possible scenarios for how it is that addiction that came up *during* a marriage (not before), ends up destroying the marriage.  It is heartbreaking to hear how your wife has gone back to the healthy, wonderful things that you found so attractive, that caused you to fall in love with her – and that she is doing that somehow *because* you are now out of her life.  That’s not really true.  You could change given the time and instruction.  You did not begin this dance of addiction. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise. Godspeed, Janie — There is a vast difference between putting your nose in other people’s business and putting your heart in other people’s problems. To reply via email replace "JLT_ALB" with "janiet" ICQ#22924224 </PRE</HTML

Janie, What a powerful description!  Thank you so much for your insight.  I hope you don’t mind that I printed out your words.  I plan to re-read them frequently and show them to my husband, who also believes that his only hope of changing is by leaving. mba

Response:

Good Morning  –  I love the strength of this group. The posts so far took me through the memories of my pain of 9 years ago. Yes, I still think about it. It reminds me of how vulnerable and precious relationships can be. Forgive, yes  – Forget, no. Hang in there. Rediscover how to love yourself. You’re worth it. Remember, God made you and God don’t make junk. Let us hear from you in your recovery. Good Luck and God Bless                         Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading this group for the past 4 months since my wife came home after a night and day of binge drinking and announced she was taking the dog and leaving. After being gone a short period, about 4 hours, she came back and started screaming at me so I went to a friends house hoping she would sober up and go to sleep, but when I got back, I was told by my brother in law that she had put herself in a psych ward to de-tox. Finally I thought things might be normal again, (we had many talks about drinking before) but two days in de-tox she sent her brother to our house to tell me she wanted me to move out.  They apparently took her off her meds while in de-tox and she wasn’t making any sense at all. I thought it due to the fact that the people at the place were screwing with her medication, (prozac), but it’s four months later and she can’t wait for me to sign the papers. When I ask her why, she’ll come up with one reason, so I concede, then another, I concede again, and then another…well I think you get the picture. I’m freaking here because it just doesn’t make logical sense. I’ve talked to her brother, and he agree’s the drinking was only one of her many problems.  I know it sounds crazy, but I am committed to her. I started seeing a psychologist because I thought I was going nuts. I’m hoping the counseling helps.  I know after reading in this group that I’m going to have to do some spiritual growing to get through this but I’m not real sure I want to. Does that make sense? I thought I had control of my life and this shit happens a week before thanksgiving. It made for a wonderful Holiday season.  So now she stops drinking, stops smoking, starts running again, all the things I fell in love with are back and she wants nothing to do with me. Damn! The feelings of anger, hurt, fear, loneliness all wrapped into a days emotion is driving me crazy. Oh, I should mention that this is the third time she’s done this? Three husbands with pretty much the same M.O. What was it that made me think I’d be different? Anyway, I do appreciate all the support you all give each other as I tend to take a little of it for myself.

Response:

I am growing.  It is a conscious choice that I reaffirm every day.  I have always sought new challenges and new experience.  That is my choice, but it is not everyone’s choice.  I do feel generally better, though there are still some big bumps in my road.  I just feel really good about not fighting anymore.  It just isn’t worth the trouble. — Tom Two times and it has rendered me, Punch drunk and without bail, Think I’d be safer all alone. <S. Weiland I can understand how you are not sure if you want to grow, because you already feel you are at a good point in your personal life. I am at the same point – I have finally come to terms with being a stay-at-home mom, not feeling the drive to succeed in a corperate enviroment and finally pursuing an artist type

career.

Response:

Cdossman: Sorry to hear your story.  I, unfortunately, can relate.  When you live with someone that is unstable, you become unstable yourself.  You, in a way, become addicted to the chaos that constitutes your life in a situation such as this.  And like any addiction, you will experience withdrawal when you go without your drug.  And, like any addiction, you will crave the drug even though you know it’s bad for you. The good thing is – you can kick the habit.  You have to decide you want to kick it, though.  I went through almost the exact same feelings – the loss of control – the questioning of her motives – the swirling of emotions.  I finally realized a few things that helped me. First, her problems are hers and not yours.  You can’t fix them, and you’ll never be able to understand them.  Logic has no place when everything is out of control.  Trying to fit logic into the equation will only frustrate you and make you doubt yourself.  So stop trying to do it… Second, control is an illusion.  The only control you have is how you choose to react to any given situation.  Reading your post, it seems that you are more concerned with her feelings and reactions than your own right now. Focusing on her is a sure-fire way to give up what little control you do have.  I firmly believe that happiness is a choice.  You can choose to be happy.  It’s not going to be easy, but you can do it.  And if you don’t choose to be happy, you’re only going to be sad. Finally, everything you’re feeling right now is normal.  Feel it, write it down, vent, get angry, cry… It’s perfectly normal to do so.  Call your friends, your family your pastor/preacher/rabbi.  Get the support you need. And after a while, you’ll be done with those emotions.  I don’t know how long it will take – but it will end. I would suggest reading ‘Codependent No More’, a book by Melody Beattie.  It was a big help in putting things into perspective for me. You mentioned not wanting to grow spiritually.  I felt the same not too long ago.  I didn’t want to turn my problems and concerns over to some Higher Power.  After a while, though, I just wore out.  When I did, I gave the spirituality thing a try.  It was a relief…  It goes back to control: when you finally realize that you really don’t have any, it’s easier to just let go of the problem. Good luck to you. LK ‘Happiness is not found but uncovered, it rides with us on our journey, hidden beneath the baggage of darker things..’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading this group for the past 4 months since my wife came home after a night and day of binge drinking and announced she was taking the dog and leaving. After being gone a short period, about 4 hours, she came back and started screaming at me so I went to a friends house hoping she would sober up and go to sleep, but when I got back, I was told by my brother in law that she had put herself in a psych ward to de-tox. Finally I thought things might be normal again, (we had many talks about drinking before) but two days in de-tox she sent her brother to our house to tell me she wanted me to move out. They apparently took her off her meds while in de-tox and she wasn’t making any sense at all. I thought it due to the fact that the people at the place were screwing with her medication, (prozac), but it’s four months later and she can’t wait for me to sign the papers. When I ask her why, she’ll come up with one reason, so I concede, then another, I concede again, and then another…well I think you get the picture. I’m freaking here because it just doesn’t make logical sense. I’ve talked to her brother, and he agree’s the drinking was only one of her many problems. I know it sounds crazy, but I am committed to her. I started seeing a psychologist because I thought I was going nuts. I’m hoping the counseling helps. I know after reading in this group that I’m going to have to do some spiritual growing to get through this but I’m not real sure I want to. Does that make sense? I thought I had control of my life and this shit happens a week before thanksgiving. It made for a wonderful Holiday season. So now she stops drinking, stops smoking, starts running again, all the things I fell in love with are back and she wants nothing to do with me. Damn! The feelings of anger, hurt, fear, loneliness all wrapped into a days emotion is driving me crazy. Oh, I should mention that this is the third time she’s done this? Three husbands with pretty much the same M.O. What was it that made me think I’d be different? Anyway, I do appreciate all the support you all give each other as I tend to take a little of it for myself.

Response:

I can understand how you are not sure if you want to grow, because you already feel you are at a good point in your personal life. I am at the same point – I have finally come to terms with being a stay-at-home mom, not feeling the drive to succeed in a corperate enviroment and finally pursuing an artist type career. But now, I am being forced to go back to work, not be at home with my kids and put my art passions on hold. So, here I go again, looking for that comfortable point.  I have to say though, that I would not be able to handle this as well if I wasn’t as secure and grounded as I am. So I am thankful for that. Lori – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You will grow considerably if you so choose.  It is not the least bit easy, but the reward is out there.  You still have control over your life, just not your marriage.  My stbx left a week and a half before Christmas.  I was devastated, but with the help of good friends and family, plus the help of some professional folks, I was able to move on.  It is still pretty strange, but I am 1000% better than I have been, even during the marriage. Hang in there and take the high road!  Keep up the counseling.  :-) — Tom Two times and it has rendered me, Punch drunk and without bail, Think I’d be safer all alone. <S. Weiland c

Response:

I know it sounds crazy, but I am committed to her. I started seeing a psychologist because I thought I was going nuts. I’m hoping the counseling helps.

Why are you so committed to her?  She has announced her intentions, she is obviously not of right mind.  Why beat a dead horse?  She will not change unless she wants to.  You’re better off without her… I know after reading in this group that I’m going to have to do some spiritual growing to get through this but I’m not real sure I want to.

You don’t have much of choice, do you? I thought I had control of my life and this shit happens

You have to take control of your life back.  The only way to do that is accept and move on. Three husbands with pretty much the same M.O. What was it that made me think I’d be different?

There ya go – 3 husbands, same track record.   She isn’t worth it. I’m glad you are in counseling.  Please know that you need to let go and move on. That is th direction to go, and though it may not seem it right now, you will be much happier months down the road.   –*Rob

Response:

cdossman, Don’t be so hard on yourself….just because you are number three doesn’t make it any easier.  But you are right, she won’t change, you had better leave while you still have a little bit of sanity left, I’m sorry you are going through so much crap right now.  Do you have any children?? Daisy "Ah’m Leghorn of Borg. Prepare, ah say, prepare to be assimilated, son." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been reading this group for the past 4 months since my wife came home after a night and day of binge drinking and announced she was taking the dog and leaving. After being gone a short period, about 4 hours, she came back and started screaming at me so I went to a friends house hoping she would sober up and go to sleep, but when I got back, I was told by my brother in law that she had put herself in a psych ward to de-tox. Finally I thought things might be normal again, (we had many talks about drinking before) but two days in de-tox she sent her brother to our house to tell me she wanted me to move out. They apparently took her off her meds while in de-tox and she wasn’t making any sense at all. I thought it due to the fact that the people at the place were screwing with her medication, (prozac), but it’s four months later and she can’t wait for me to sign the papers. When I ask her why, she’ll come up with one reason, so I concede, then another, I concede again, and then another…well I think you get the picture. I’m freaking here because it just doesn’t make logical sense. I’ve talked to her brother, and he agree’s the drinking was only one of her many problems. I know it sounds crazy, but I am committed to her. I started seeing a psychologist because I thought I was going nuts. I’m hoping the counseling helps. I know after reading in this group that I’m going to have to do some spiritual growing to get through this but I’m not real sure I want to. Does that make sense? I thought I had control of my life and this shit happens a week before thanksgiving. It made for a wonderful Holiday season. So now she stops drinking, stops smoking, starts running again, all the things I fell in love with are back and she wants nothing to do with me. Damn! The feelings of anger, hurt, fear, loneliness all wrapped into a days emotion is driving me crazy. Oh, I should mention that this is the third time she’s done this? Three husbands with pretty much the same M.O. What was it that made me think I’d be different? Anyway, I do appreciate all the support you all give each other as I tend to take a little of it for myself.

Response:

You will grow considerably if you so choose.  It is not the least bit easy, but the reward is out there.  You still have control over your life, just not your marriage.  My stbx left a week and a half before Christmas.  I was devastated, but with the help of good friends and family, plus the help of some professional folks, I was able to move on.  It is still pretty strange, but I am 1000% better than I have been, even during the marriage. Hang in there and take the high road!  Keep up the counseling.  :-) — Tom Two times and it has rendered me, Punch drunk and without bail, Think I’d be safer all alone. <S. Weiland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know after reading in this group that I’m going to have to do some spiritual growing to get through this but I’m not real sure I want to. Does that make sense? I thought I had control of my life and this shit happens a week before thanksgiving.

Response:

I’ve been reading this group for the past 4 months since my wife came home after a night and day of binge drinking and announced she was taking the dog and leaving. After being gone a short period, about 4 hours, she came back and started screaming at me so I went to a friends house hoping she would sober up and go to sleep, but when I got back, I was told by my brother in law that she had put herself in a psych ward to de-tox. Finally I thought things might be normal again, (we had many talks about drinking before) but two days in de-tox she sent her brother to our house to tell me she wanted me to move out.  They apparently took her off her meds while in de-tox and she wasn’t making any sense at all. I thought it due to the fact that the people at the place were screwing with her medication, (prozac), but it’s four months later and she can’t wait for me to sign the papers. When I ask her why, she’ll come up with one reason, so I concede, then another, I concede again, and then another…well I think you get the picture. I’m freaking here because it just doesn’t make logical sense. I’ve talked to her brother, and he agree’s the drinking was only one of her many problems.  I know it sounds crazy, but I am committed to her. I started seeing a psychologist because I thought I was going nuts. I’m hoping the counseling helps.  I know after reading in this group that I’m going to have to do some spiritual growing to get through this but I’m not real sure I want to. Does that make sense? I thought I had control of my life and this shit happens a week before thanksgiving. It made for a wonderful Holiday season.  So now she stops drinking, stops smoking, starts running again, all the things I fell in love with are back and she wants nothing to do with me. Damn! The feelings of anger, hurt, fear, loneliness all wrapped into a days emotion is driving me crazy. Oh, I should mention that this is the third time she’s done this? Three husbands with pretty much the same M.O. What was it that made me think I’d be different? Anyway, I do appreciate all the support you all give each other as I tend to take a little of it for myself.

Response:

Question:

Madrid Jails 23 Leaders Of Basque Independence Struggle from the Militant, vol.61/no.44                     December 15, 1997 BY MEGAN ARNEY Really I could swear you write just like Goebbles, tell me didn’t you a while ago work as the propaganda person for some fascist guys…. what were their names?… oh, yeah.. the nazis?

The Militant writes just like Goebbels because they *are* one and the same.   Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Khomeini, Idi Amin, etc.  The list is fascists on earth using various aliases is unending.  And The Militant continues to uphold this long and glorious tradition of propaganda…and genocide.

Response:

Madrid Jails 23 Leaders Of Basque Independence Struggle from the Militant, vol.61/no.44                     December 15, 1997

Nice source. A terroristm related netzine? Or a terrorist netzine? BY MEGAN ARNEY

Never heard of. Who are you? Perhaps if we know a little bit about you we can read you better. Let me introduce myself. I was born in Euskadi 42 years ago. I fight hardly against Franco, but without killing anybody, that’s the difference. I still believe that people can talk about their problems. I am an executive for a company born in Euskadi during the years after the Civil War. I am married and I have two kids.   On December 1 the Spanish Supreme Court jailed 23 central leaders of Herri Batasuna (Popular Unity), the Basque pro- independence political party. The entire leadership of the party was sentenced to seven years on charges of collaboration with the armed independence group ETA (Basque Homeland and Liberty). The Basque people are an oppressed nation of about 3 million people in northern Spain and southern France.

First prize. It is difficult to disguise the reality with such conviction in fewer lines. Oppression is what HB and ETA use to exercise what they called "freedom", what is nothing more than repression.   Five of the accused held seats in regional parliaments in the Basque country.  Herri Batasuna is the third largest party in Spain and has two members in the national parliament. The independence activists were to start their sentences within 48 hours of the decision. They were also fined US$3,355 each and barred from standing for election while in prison.

Herri Batasuna is a legal political party. As such, they can obtain seats at parliaments. But let me remember you that they are declarated "personan non-grata" at the European parliament. Herri Batasuna is far from the third party in Spain. They aren’t even the third party in Euskadi. Did you mention that they were imprissoned five days after the sentence? Not 48 hours. Learn maths.   The Spanish government’s excuse for the prosecution of the Herri Batasuna leadership was a video prepared to be shown on television as part of the party’s election campaign. The broadcast included a presentation of the ETA’s proposal for a peace initiative, the main points of which include recognition by the Spanish state for the right to self-determination and territorial integrity of the Basque country, or Euskal Herria; the removal of Spanish occupational forces; and a general amnesty for Basque refugees and some 580 political prisoners.

Your knowledge of political science is quite poor. There haven’t been any political prisoners in Spain since 1977. The prisoners you talk about are nothing more than murderers who have killed, among others, babys, childs, pergnant mothers, electricians, workers, plumbers and all kind of civilian people. And, since Euskadi is inside Spain, there are no occupational forces. Euskadi, my ‘dear’ friend, is not a colony of Spain, but part of it.   The proposal also lists issues "to be discussed and agreed among the Basque population," including how to realize self- determination, normalization of the Basque language, demilitarization of the Basque country, educational rights, and democratic liberties.

Have you ever been at any elections in Euskadi? Let me explain you the feelings: you have people from Herri Batasuna who control what do you vote, you cannot ask for any explanation for lost lists from others partys, etc. That’s opression and repression. To get an introductory 12-week subscription to the Militant in the U.S., send $10 US to: The Militant, 410 West Street, New York, NY 10014. For subscription rates to other countries, send e-mail to

Oh! All you wanted was try to sell more magazines. Are you from Amway, too? Visit the Militant and other communist net resources: The Militant gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:/11/pubs/militant The Young Socialists http://pages.prodigy.com/AHSG60C/index.html Pathfinder Press gopher://ftp.std.com/11/Book%20Sellers/Pathfinder%20Press Perspectiva Mundial gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:70/11/pubs/pm

IGC again. It has been demonstrated from these newsgroups that many people have lied to IGC. Sorry but any organization from IGC doesn’t give me any confidence any more. Yeah!. Visit them. You will find even justification for the recent murder of 113 people who tried to scape from Cuba. Next time, please, visit Spain, talk to the people and then you are free to explain whatever you want. But do not lie about a people who are responsible for the kill of more than 800 people. U don’t sign, I don’t sign.

Response:

Madrid Jails 23 Leaders Of Basque Independence Struggle from the Militant, vol.61/no.44                     December 15, 1997 BY MEGAN ARNEY

Really I could swear you write just like Goebbles, tell me didn’t you a while ago work as the propaganda person for some fascist guys…. what were their names?… oh, yeah.. the nazis?   On December 1 the Spanish Supreme Court jailed 23 central leaders of Herri Batasuna (Popular Unity), the Basque pro- independence political party. The entire leadership of the party was sentenced to seven years on charges of collaboration with the armed independence group ETA (Basque Homeland and Liberty). The Basque people are an oppressed nation of about 3 million people in northern Spain and southern France.

Really? Have you been there? How come you write in their name?   Five of the accused held seats in regional parliaments in the Basque country.  Herri Batasuna is the third largest party in Spain and has two members in the national parliament. The

Let me think 3 million basques… 40+ million people in Spain. That is a tad under 10% of the entire population.. yet a purely basque political party is the 3th largest. Somehow math ain’t working here. Oh, I forgot you are using your new ‘free’ math as opposed to the opressed false math that we blind people of the world have to study. MAn…. this is way too funny, keep’em coming pleeeezzzz. independence activists were to start their sentences within 48 hours of the decision. They were also fined US$3,355 each and barred from standing for election while in prison.   The Spanish government’s excuse for the prosecution of the Herri Batasuna leadership was a video prepared to be shown on television as part of the party’s election campaign. The broadcast included a presentation of the ETA’s proposal for a peace initiative, the main points of which include recognition by the Spanish state for the right to self-determination and territorial integrity of the Basque country, or Euskal Herria;

Tell me, when has been ‘Euskal Herria’ and actual country? Pleeez Man… you are hilarious! Oh, what is ETA/HB’s excuse for the hundreds of deads, crippled and broken families that they are leaving behind their bloody trail? All of the sudden you are not funy… but rather a fucking moron! Wonder if you actually believe the bullshit you are barfing on this newsgroup… do you have any addiction/alcohol problems. Because whatever shit you are smoking is seriously messing up your single neuron brain. the removal of Spanish occupational forces; and a general amnesty for Basque refugees and some 580 political prisoners.

Ocupational forces? Last I checked the basques had their own police corps…. and more independent regional gobernment than most other Spanish areas…..   The proposal also lists issues "to be discussed and agreed among the Basque population," including how to realize self- determination, normalization of the Basque language,

What prevents now the basques from normalizing their languaje.. demilitarization of the Basque country, educational rights, and democratic liberties.

Oohh.. by demilitarizing you mean, ETA’s giving up their weapons? To get an introductory 12-week subscription to the Militant in the U.S., send $10 US to: The Militant, 410 West Street, New York, NY 10014. For subscription rates to other countries, send e-mail to

Since when communist are out there to make profit. If you really believed the shit you are defecating… you would distribute it for free…. I wonder how many morons actually subscribe to your ‘Nazi Review’. Can I get a free issue of last month’s "Morons digest"…. pleez Visit the Militant and other communist net resources: The Militant gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:/11/pubs/militant The Young Socialists http://pages.prodigy.com/AHSG60C/index.html Pathfinder Press gopher://ftp.std.com/11/Book%20Sellers/Pathfinder%20Press Perspectiva Mundial gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:70/11/pubs/pm

–  Francisco J. Mesa-Mart        http://www-scf.usc.edu/~mesamart

Response:

Madrid Jails 23 Leaders Of Basque Independence Struggle from the Militant, vol.61/no.44                     December 15, 1997 BY MEGAN ARNEY    On December 1 the Spanish Supreme Court jailed 23 central leaders of Herri Batasuna (Popular Unity), the Basque pro- independence political party. The entire leadership of the party was sentenced to seven years on charges of collaboration with the armed independence group ETA (Basque Homeland and Liberty). The Basque people are an oppressed nation of about 3 million people in northern Spain and southern France.    Five of the accused held seats in regional parliaments in the Basque country.  Herri Batasuna is the third largest party in Spain and has two members in the national parliament. The independence activists were to start their sentences within 48 hours of the decision. They were also fined US$3,355 each and barred from standing for election while in prison.    The Spanish government’s excuse for the prosecution of the Herri Batasuna leadership was a video prepared to be shown on television as part of the party’s election campaign. The broadcast included a presentation of the ETA’s proposal for a peace initiative, the main points of which include recognition by the Spanish state for the right to self-determination and territorial integrity of the Basque country, or Euskal Herria; the removal of Spanish occupational forces; and a general amnesty for Basque refugees and some 580 political prisoners.    The proposal also lists issues "to be discussed and agreed among the Basque population," including how to realize self- determination, normalization of the Basque language, demilitarization of the Basque country, educational rights, and democratic liberties. To get an introductory 12-week subscription to the Militant in the U.S., send $10 US to: The Militant, 410 West Street, New York, NY 10014. For subscription rates to other countries, send e-mail to Visit the Militant and other communist net resources: The Militant gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:/11/pubs/militant The Young Socialists http://pages.prodigy.com/AHSG60C/index.html Pathfinder Press gopher://ftp.std.com/11/Book%20Sellers/Pathfinder%20Press Perspectiva Mundial gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:70/11/pubs/pm

Response: