Question:
— Health care is a right,
at whose expense? Who owns your life and labor? Reason is man’s basic means of survival. AYN RAND This here thing comes from this here seed. ARISTOTLE I reckon so! JOANN SVENDSEN Tracking Marxist dialectical revolution: ZigZag Radically systematic radical metaphysics: Existence 2 http://home.att.net/~sdgross
Response:
— Health care is a right, at whose expense? Who owns your life and labor?
Often some corporation that doesn’t care about its laborers. The IRS takes also a good chunk. Then many folks can’t work while others must work at very low-paying jobs. Because I care about the people in this country, wealthy or not that they should have access to good health. Health care SHOULD be a right as it is in every civilized nation. It makes the nation stronger. It is fiscally far more responsible. Look at the recent data showing that non-profit HMOs serve their clients better. A single payer health care system would be an excellent investment in our country, would help to bring down costs if developed appropriately which would benefit everyone and be an excellent utilization of our taxes. Instead, we have a Senate bent on denying people medication based on the whim of an accountant. That’s taxation without representation as far as I’m concerned. George M. Carter
Response:
This article is reposted from time to time for the benefit of anyone who is interested. Health care — a right, not a privilege by Jan Spence Summary: An interview with Dr. David E. Smith, founder of a free clinic in San Francisco, USA, emphasizing patient needs over administrative requirements and medical protocol. Dr David E. Smith founded the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic in San Francisco in 1967. In the intervening years, the clinic has expanded to over 20 sites in the Bay Area, with 200 paid staff and 500 volunteers. Funding is primarily through city, state and federal government, although the clinics do receive some private funds. Dr Smith is president and medical director of the clinics. His specialties are Addiction Medicine and Clinical Toxicology. He is also a writer, professor, lecturer, adviser and consultant in his field. According to a statement by Smith: "The Haight Ashbury Free Clinics is a community-based non-profit health care agency dealing with many of society’s most difficult problems, including primary health care, chemical dependency, AIDS prevention and treatment, and women’s health issues. All of these services are rooted in the Free Clinic’s philosophy that evolved when the first Clinic opened in June 1967: — Health care is a right, not a privilege. It should be free at the point of delivery for all who need it. — Primary health services should be comprehensive, non-fragmented, and decentralized. — Medicine should be demystified, non-judgmental and humane. Health care should be delivered in a courteous and educational manner. When possible, patients should be permitted to choose among alternative methods of treatment. — Health care skills, with an emphasis on preventive medicine, should be transferred to worker and patient alike. The worker and patient should be permitted to practise and share these skills. — Health care should be delivered via a team philosophy, granting respect and authority to each team member’s skills and expertise. — Community and worker input should be established. Free medical clinics should be responsive to the people who use them and work in them." Dr Smith goes on to say: "The ‘Free’ in Free Clinic refers more to a state of mind than to the absence of a cashier. Free means an entire philosophy of service in which the person is treated rather than his or her disease; it is an important distinction. In a free clinic the focus is on health caring for the whole person, on providing a service which is free of red tape, free of value judgements, free of eligibility requirements, free of emotional hassles, free of frozen medical protocol, free of moralizing, and last and least, free of charge." Jan Spence: Refresh my memory. Tell me about the Haight Ashbury neighborhood in San Francisco in the 1960s. Dr David Smith: The new counter-culture community began to emerge. Many young people with strong political and anti-war feelings arrived with smiles, flowers and backpacks. It was predicted that at least 100,000 young people would flock to the Haight Ashbury district when school was out in 1967. There were also reporters, television crews and sociologists. It was the San Francisco renaissance in technicolor. JS: What prompted you to open the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic? DS: I had lived in the Haight Ashbury for 32 years. I was going to the University of California at San Francisco (UCSF) medical school, specializing in psychopharmacology — the study of the effects of drugs on the mind. And I was experimenting with LSD at UCSF. On returning home I would see the hippies and flower children in stages of bad ‘acid trips’ [LSD experiences]. The powerful hallucinogenic and consciousness-altering properties of LSD were being explored by a growing number of young people. The term ‘psychedelic’ was coined for what experimenters called its mind-expanding effects. Psychedelic became the label for a number of consciousness-altering drugs and for the people who had their consciousness altered by them. On the opening day of the clinic, over 250 patients were treated, including more than 40 cases of venereal disease and 15 cases of hepatitis. The primary drug concern was bad LSD trips. JS: Was that when the "Clinic" became "Clinics"? DS: Yes. With the increase of drug use, we needed more space to provide counseling and crisis intervention for the psychedelic bad trips. None of the established health centers in the area met the needs of the Haight Ashbury’s new population. JS: I have read in one of your books: "Everyone told me that I was making a big mistake if I opened a Free Clinic." DS: There was a hostile environment to the counter-culture. Treating addicts on an out-patient basis in a community-based setting was severely criticized. My malpractice insurance was cancelled. JS: Today you are dealing with some of our society’s most serious problems. DS: We have a big program dealing with education and intervention with intravenous drug users. We have expanded into a network including jail psychiatric services; rock medicine, a medical service at rock concerts including the Grateful Dead, who played a big part in the history and culture of the 1960s era; The Smith House, a detoxification center for women; MAMA Project (Moving Addicted Mothers Ahead), where mothers will lose their babies if they don’t get into drug recovery; and a drug education and prevention program in schools. We have 500 out-patients daily; the majority are drug related. We have 52 different recovery group meetings a week. Patients are learning to live a life without drugs. JS: What, in your experience, causes people to take drugs? DS : As I understand it, the cause of addictive disease is genetics plus environment. Anybody is liable to addiction. If there is drug availability, peer pressure, psychological stress, an individual may experiment with drugs. But some people, when they experiment, rapidly lose control and develop addiction. This is based on an interplay of pharmacological factors: the effects of the drug, the environment in which they take the drug, and the stress and genetic vulnerability of that individual. Those who are genetically predisposed to addiction react differently to drugs from those who are not. JS: What are the spiritual dimensions of drug abuse and treatment? DS: Our clinic has a strong orientation to spiritual programs of recovery, particularly the 12 Steps of Recovery that first started with Alcoholics Anonymous, but are now embodied in many different types of recovery processes. With addiction, you get sick first spiritually, then psychologically, then physically. Recovery is physical, then psychological, and then spiritual. There’s also a growing awareness that there’s a spiritual crisis in our society. Some individuals — in fact, many individuals — are seeking a drug solution to that spiritual crisis. That’s the reason our recovery process, with its emphasis on the spiritual dimension of addiction, works so well. JS: What approaches have you found that work best to help people get off drugs? DS: You have to have everything: primary prevention — education techniques that you use before the young person even begins to experiment with drugs; the secondary techniques that are used when the individual starts to experiment, but has not yet suffered any disability — focusing around individual peer and family counseling; and treatment approaches when the individual has, in fact, developed an addiction problem. Addiction treatments can be divided into drug maintenance and drug-free approaches. Drug maintenance would be, for example, methadone maintenance. The drug-free approach would be a type of medical, psychological, and spiritual approach such as the one we use. People are taken into the clinic, evaluated medically, detoxified, given individual and group counseling, and directed toward a recovery group. We also use a range of medications including post-detoxification, anti-craving drugs that reduce the craving for drugs, as well as blocking agents that help block the relapse back into their drug addiction. JS: What about alternative approaches such as acupuncture? DS: We use acupuncture as a relapse prevention technique. It appears to decrease drug hunger. We can also use acupuncture rather than a narcotic as a pain medication. Additionally, we focus on holistic approaches: don’t get too hungry, too angry, too lonely, too tired. Exercise. We have a holistic as well as a pharmacological approach to recovery. (Haight Ashbury Free Clinics, 409 Clayton Street, Third Floor, San Francisco, CA 94117, USA.) Article is from Share International <http://www.shareintl.org Please take 20 seconds out of your day and visit this site: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Click on "Donate Free food" button in the center of their small page. By doing this, one serving of food will be donated for every click (limited to one per day per person). You pay nothing and someone gets a free meal. Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger. There is a 10% per capita excess of food in the world. Please check this out and share this information with others http://www.thehungersite.com/ —Please bookmark & visit this site everyday
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Yes, I did that in my other post… I missed where you said it but the more I read, the more I am in agreement, that it’s all about personal knowledge and staying informed and taking charge. I do believe that there’s nothing wrong with using administrative and third-party help is ok if you’re working toward your own proverbial "something better." And I firmly believe that conventional meds can and should be supplemented with alternative choices. (I recently responded to Dr. Harris, in agreement with the idea that if someone won’t take an alternative cure, then it does them no good.) The real danger, IMO, in any medical or health perspective is ignorance of available choices. Hilary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hilary, Don’t forget the part where I said that health care is neither a right nor a privilege but rather the responsibility of the individual. Also, any third party pay is flawed. But Medicaid is obviously better than private insurance companies: 3 cents on the dollar rather than 24 cents on the dollar going to administration. Roger
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Hilary, Don’t forget the part where I said that health care is neither a right nor a privilege but rather the responsibility of the individual. Also, any third party pay is flawed. But Medicaid is obviously better than private insurance companies: 3 cents on the dollar rather than 24 cents on the dollar going to administration. Roger
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I’m going to go out on a limb, here, and say if the American public were more self-educated, we would have fewer problems all the way across the board. This includes health problems. If people would just stop and look around, everyone’s blaming everyone else that there are carcinogens and toxins and bad lawyers and cruddy politicians and doctors who charge too much and teachers who are too mean and kids who beat animals and lousy clinics. But when you just get off the ole’ duff and do some reading, you can change your own life radically and make yourself healthier, happier, and less prone to victimization by ANY of the "industrial complexes." I hope I am not wrong in saying what bachole is trying to get at is it’s all about personal responsibility. I wouldn’t use a free clinic because I know there are people who need it worse than I do. But I think it’s a fantastic idea. I am all for something that de-stigmatizes "social disease". Hilary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess that is why their longevity and infant mortality rates are better than ours. They all come here for medical care. And the mothers over there probably don’t take crack cocaine, as some do in the U.S. There is plenty of drug use in Europe. Let’s blame it on the blacks again.
Response:
Medicaid takes 3 cents of every dollar to administrate and the insurance companies take 24 cents of every dollar to administrate.
I am a great advocate of Medicaid. I was a dreaded "Medicaid Mom" when I had my first child. The doctor who delivered my baby (unfortunately my Dr was on vacation) treated me like crap, ’scuse my language. However, the Medicaid enabled me to have a hospital delivery. If I had not been on it, I might have had to go with a midwife or nurse practitioner, which would have been fine except that I had some complications. Medicaid enabled me to have the choices I wanted. With my second child, I paid cash. The same Dr. (again, sadly, not my OB/GYN) delivered my son. He treated me like a "cash patient," that is to say, much better, but by then, I didn’t appreciate it so much because I had seen the other side. After the initial paperwork problems are overcome, Medicaid is an excellent need-based program. I know that I was lucky and that others have had difficulty on it, but it provided me with the care and service I needed to have a healthy pregnancy in a time when I couldn’t really afford to pay for all the services. Amazingly, when you pay cash in advance (around here in Abilene, Texas), the hospital gets to charge you three to four THOUSAND dollars less than when you are on Medicaid, insurance, or other third-party payment. They say that those are "administrative costs." Personally I think those "administrative costs" are extra procedures that the hospital tacks on because the patient, in the vast majority of cases, never sees the claim forms that get submitted. That is based on nothing but my opinion, however. We still have some kinks to work out. Hilary
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think growing up involves adopting a logical, sustainable philosophy, one not based on the slavery of other people. What do you think? How about this. A democratic approach. Income taxes would have a new form that would allow people to state where their tax dollars should go. One tick mark for the bloated military. You could just check that one. Then others for social programs like a single payer health care system, education, infrastructure, the arts, etc. People could then choose where their money goes. Now, this would probably not affect social security, FICA or sales taxes, obviously. Those are separate issues. George M. Carter
Now you’re talking! Where do I sign up?! Seriously though, this is an excellent idea, and I think a great way to prevent dictatorship in any country. With the rapid rate of information exchange in this time and country, it is feasible. Actually, I am furious that we don’t have a system like this already! If you can provide me with a website or more information, I would appreciate it. Although, I think SS belongs on that ballot also.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron. Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs. If every country in the world were jumping off a cliff would you join them?I can tell right away from your belligerent attitude that you are the kind of thief who would hold a gun to another persons head (i.e. a doctors) and demand that he save your life, because if he won’t, you will kill him. Dimbulb. I guarantee if you were on your death bed and needed a procedure and that wonderful insurance you have is capped out you’ll be bawling like a baby for help. You’re the type that cries to the newspaper for public charity. And then after you croak the ghosts of the ones that have passed on that you ridiculed and persecuted will dance on your grave.
Oh really?! Do you work for psychic friends? If you don’t, you sure have mad quite a few assumptions here. Care to explain your reasoning? Or is reason beyond your capabilities? Mark my words genius: as generation after generation becomes indoctrinated, in the mind control system that is the current state of our *mandatory* public schools, we will see our personal freedoms and our individual rights by sold out from us wholesale, because people like you self have the philosophy ‘I agree, it sucks’…’taxes are a sad part of life’ (your words, not mine) Yeah it sucks that I pay taxes for your hatchlings to go to school, too. Get a private school.
Just to be clear, I don’t have kids (or hatchlings). If I ever do, they will be home schooled. You know, I really don’t remember going on any anti-tax tirades. Let me guess, you are a disgruntled commie, who is turning to socialism as a non-*physically* violent way to get a free lunch and a free check up. I pay taxes for one reason alone. To be protected from thugs who would like to kill me or my loved ones, or to steal from us. The typical simpleton that enjoys all the niceties of a modern society yet if has no tolerance for others that do. Let me clue you in on something bozo. I’m on Medicare. I paid social security all my life. That’s my money going for those services.
Actually, your money was spent a long time ago. My money is now paying to keep you alive. People like you should go back to riding horses, and educating you’re own children after you plow the fields. Turn down crop subsidies, they’re a Communist plot. My bet is a staunch individualist like yourself would starve in three months.
Oh really. Obviously you have a low opinion of all humans. So, you have the ability to judge whether another person could live in the forest for more than three months, by reading what, 3 newsgroup postings? Where I’m from we call that prejudice, and it’s frowned upon. Mainly for the fact that the person who is prejudiced is usually so, because of his own fears. I clearly said ‘go ahead and open your free clinic’ I won’t be going there, and you will have to steal my money to make me pay for it. You said ‘What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron.’ Yeah the IRS, the state and your city will take it or you’ll find yourself in a jail cell with a 270 pound black dude named Bubba. Explain you’re novel approach to him.
Right. Is this your way of rationalizing the fact that you have been on your knees before the tax man for your entire life? Just lock me up, because I don’t want to be a slave? That’s archaic. I suggest you get a dictionary (and use it) before you embarass your self further with your intolerant devotion to your own opinions and prejudices. Obviously this guy has limited reasoning ability.
Obviously huh? Tell me, is there such thing as ‘un’ limited reasoning ability? So, suggesting that another person use a dictionary, because I don’t think they have a proper understanding of a word, means that I have ‘limited reasoning ability’? In respect to you, I won’t make any comments on your ability to reason. Well, first, national health care doesn’t stop doctors from earning money. Second, with a pool of 250 million people, the costs of such a I sure that went right over his head.
Sure huh? If you’re so sure, then why don’t you explain your self? Is this the extent of your response to the bulk of my refute? First, tell that to the doctors in Russia. Tell us about the salary structure of Soviet MD’s. My guess is you haven’t a clue.
Haven’t a clue huh?US News and World Report Feb. 8, 1999 "Proud Russia On It’s Knees" …"Elderly Pensioners dying of starvation no longer make the news. Life expectancy for adult men has fallen from 64 to 59 in 1998. And the question for the country now is whether it can survive at all as a coherent state, still less as a civilized society."…. …"Entire segments of the health system have collapsed."…. …"40% of Russia’s children are chronically ill. Tuberculosis has struck down 100,000 people, and some 2 million may well be exposed."… …"Russia’s annual government revenues are less than what the US treasury collects in a single week"… …"The government still employs 40 million out of 67 million workers"… Guess again. — There is no salary structure for ‘Soviet’ MD’s. They don’t get paid. They are *slaves* to the government that has been robbing it’s people blind for the last century. And you defend a national health care system, because you think you get a *free* regular dialysis? It’s not free pal. *I* pay for it, without my consent. My money is stolen from me, to pay for your medicare. Second, *you* pay for it. The only way you’ll get my money is to steal it. Fitting.
Yeah, you make me out to be some kind of criminal, so you feel justified stealing my money. AND, no other person has a ‘right’ to my money. Your ‘free’ clinic is *paid* for by tax dollars. And hundreds of other citizens. You champion democracy (a rather perverted form) but only wish to follow the parts that you like. You would be better off on a remote island where there are no rules that you have to follow. Bud if you enjoy the US, follow the rules as a citizen or else you’re a leech like you try to portray those who you attack.
Hellooo, anybody home?! I think every American should be able to direct where their tax dollars are spent, and you are trying to make me out to be some kind of introverted, island dwelling, scrooge. Great. I’m here practicing my right to free speech, trying to find a way where people can have more say in their government, and trying to prevent the communising (sp?) of the US, and you have no more respect for me, than you do for a common leec?. I’m a leech because I think every one should have a right to the money they earn, and should be allowed to control where it goes, after it has been taken at gunpoint by the government? Being that I am confident of my position, and that I can back it up rationally, I feel no overwhelming need to treat any one as less than human. It’s unfortunate you don’t have that attitude. <SNIP the rest of this mindless prattle
(partial repost) I think growing up involves adopting a logical, sustainable philosophy, one not based on the slavery of other people. What do you think?
This is what you call mindless prattle?
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I think growing up involves adopting a logical, sustainable philosophy, one not based on the slavery of other people. What do you think?
How about this. A democratic approach. Income taxes would have a new form that would allow people to state where their tax dollars should go. One tick mark for the bloated military. You could just check that one. Then others for social programs like a single payer health care system, education, infrastructure, the arts, etc. People could then choose where their money goes. Now, this would probably not affect social security, FICA or sales taxes, obviously. Those are separate issues. George M. Carter
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I guess that is why their longevity and infant mortality rates are better than ours. They all come here for medical care. And the mothers over there probably don’t take crack cocaine, as some do in the U.S.
There is plenty of drug use in Europe. Let’s blame it on the blacks again.
Response:
What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron. Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs. If every country in the world were jumping off a cliff would you join them?I can tell right away from your belligerent attitude that you are the kind of thief who would hold a gun to another persons head (i.e. a doctors) and demand that he save your life, because if he won’t, you will kill him.
I can tell from your brain-dead response that you haven’t got much of a clue. First, doctors have a duty to care for the sick and injured. No gun required. Second, the only country "jumping off a cliff" is the U.S. This is not just a matter of ethical policy, it’s a matter of economics. But you so-called Repugnican right-wing psychos can’t seem to grasp that it is a better way to manage resources. Do you honestly think I care what every other nations health care program is? I hate to be the one to break this to you, but if you live in a coutry with a nationalized health care system, you live in a socialist country. Socialism is one step away from slavery(i.e. communism) The only thing blocking that slavery is the lattitude of the ‘free market’ and the benefits it provides.
Right. Like the widening gap between the very rich and the rest of us. Like corporate welfare. Like collective farming (was Marx right after all??) Like corporate feudalism. Face it, the "free market" belongs to corporations and a few VERY wealthy individuals and doesn’t give a fuck about the rest of us. In any event, this lame effort to label nationalized health care as "socialist" and therefore "evil" is just more right-wing knee-jerk rhetoric. It’s illogical, short-sighted and stupid. First, a single payer healthcare system is not socialism. Second, socialism is a system with good aspects and bad aspects, either of which, like "free market capitalism" is only as good as the people running it. I’d say Yugoslavia was MUCH better off under Tito. By contrast, Stalinist Soviet satellite countries like Czechoslovakia got screwed horribly (but some would argue whether that was "socialism" and not merely despotism). Mark my words genius: as generation after generation becomes indoctrinated, in the mind control system that is the current state of our *mandatory* public schools, we will see our personal freedoms and our individual rights by sold out from us wholesale, because people like you self have the philosophy ‘I agree, it sucks’…’taxes are a sad part of life’ (your words, not mine)
Girlfriend, if you have some practical suggestions, share them. This dithering bullshit goes nowhere. You know, I really don’t remember going on any anti-tax tirades. Let me guess, you are a disgruntled commie, who is turning to socialism as a non-*physically* violent way to get a free lunch and a free check up. I pay taxes for one reason alone. To be protected from thugs who would like to kill me or my loved ones, or to steal from us.
Ah, so you DO accept paying taxes. Now we’re getting somewhere. But you don’t care if you or your loved ones are ill, starved or stupid? You don’t pay taxes for decent highways and bridges? You just want to pay taxes for an already bloated military? Is that it? Please clarify. Or better yet, why don’t you move to the land of ‘Star Trek’ in the 23rd century? Love to. Bigots like you are mostly a thing of our past. Hey, I’ll meet you there. As for you childish name calling — bigot – n one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions and prejudices
Yes, that sounds like you. I clearly said ‘go ahead and open your free clinic’ I won’t be going there, and you will have to steal my money to make me pay for it. You said ‘What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron.’
Yes. I suggest you get a dictionary (and use it) before you embarass your self further with your intolerant devotion to your own opinions and prejudices.
Well, I’m intolerant of bigots, so yes, I’m bigoted against bigots. However, my views on national health care stem from study of the social policy, being an AIDS activist and seeing what is going on in the cities among the very poor. You may think you have a ‘right’ to helath care, but since we do not live in a slave state, or in an idealistic society where robots preform surgery, doctors have a right to charge you money, in exchange for their services. I would never want to live in a society where health care was a ‘right’ because I expect my doctor to *deserve* the money that I give him. Well, first, national health care doesn’t stop doctors from earning money. Second, with a pool of 250 million people, the costs of such a plan COULD be low. Third, the rates doctors charge for their services are sometimes ridiculous and have increased outrageously in some sectors. Is this the extent of your response to the bulk of my refute?
Not necessarily. This is a newsgroup. I’m not writing you a treatise. First, tell that to the doctors in Russia.
Why? Second, *you* pay for it. The only way you’ll get my money is to steal it.
Your use of the term "steal" suggests you reject being a citizen of the United States and having your taxes go for things you don’t like. You started your bigoted little tirade by saying to the original poster that she should move to Russia. Stupid. You’re the one who should move–but nowhere in the world exists that would satisfy your inchoate desires. Third, if you don’t like their prices, I suggest you become a doctor and charge lower prices or do the treatment yourself. That’s the beauty of capitalism, if you don’t like the prices, you go to someone who sells what you want for less. Or, you don’t get it. Sorry, but it takes more than 8 years, and a brilliant mind to become a surgeon, and that my friend, will never be free.
I didn’t say it should be free. I’m saying that, as an industry, the rates charged are exorbitant and beyond reason. That adds a burden to the entire system and causes insurance premiums to skyrocket. Then average people get screwed by the "private" system–to the point where many hard-working people do not have access to healthcare. Unless you’re employed by a corporation that covers it. The independent free-spirit nature of Ameica is being subsumed in the sucking maw of corporatization of everything. AND, no other person has a ‘right’ to my money. Your ‘free’ clinic is *paid* for by tax dollars. Yes. If you don’t like paying taxes, though, dear, (dear?!?!) I don’t know where to tell you to go exactly. Um, excuse me, but it is your prejudice that made you think that I do not like paying taxes. Actually I enjoy it. What I don’t like, is my tax dollars being spent on things other than the defense of this country, which is the only purpose of a *national* governement. But I digress, that is another argument.
No, it’s not. This is a central point. You have to make a cogent case that taxes be only spent on defense–that this is the limit of government work. You fail to do so. You fail to make any attempt to see how the massive change in the U.S. government should be effected to make it the way you want to see it. In short, YOU are the person who is most dissatisfied with the U.S. government and this country’s utilization of your taxes. So why don’t YOU fucking leave? Me, I’m not happy with the way they squander money either. But I’d rather fight for what I believe in. And I believe in the people of this country–rich and poor alike. I want the best possible start in life for kids–good education, health care. And for adults. I want a baseline investment in the human resources that will provide an enormous return in a happier people, a more stable economy and one that is not a top-heavy lie that’s more about sequestering wealth into the hands of a few. But we pay for so much corporate welfareand a prison industrial complex and so on. Don’t forget your philosophy ‘I agree it sucks’….’taxes are a sad part of life’ (your words not mine) You are the one who is powerless, and by your own choice. That is how you will try to trick others into supporting your ideal slave state, by trying to convince us we are all powerless over our governement. I disagree though. I will do everything rational that I can to control my government, in order to make it better for the people it is *supposed* to be protecting. (i.e. all of us, not just beggars)
To the contrary. I have agreed that things are fucked up. I have NOT agreed we are powerless. And indeed, I do what I can every day to change the world and make this country better. There may be areas where we disagree–but probably not many. What I want to see from you is a justification for your knee-jerk responses, not just the rhetoric. What does "everything rational" entail? Can’t you get it throughyour sad, narrow little mind that taking care of our most preciousresource–humans—is invariably of benefit to the health of thenation?? Once again, your prejudice has blocked your view of my opinon and what I would choose, if I were legally able. I do not agree that other humans are a resource, but I do have a high value for the humans who decide to live peacefully and rationally. And a lower value for those who wish to steal from me. I understand that you think the best way to benefit the health of the nation is to steal money from people like myself. Is this correct?
No. The conflict here is the role of government. You claim that it should be only (?) for defense. I disagree. In fact, few, including the "founding fathers" thought that should be the sole role. What I’m saying is that taxes can be used for a variety of things that can make … read more »
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Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs. And people from those countries come to the U.S. for decent health care, if they have the money.
I guess that is why their longevity and infant mortality rates are better than ours. They all come here for medical care. Roger
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Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs. And people from those countries come to the U.S. for decent health care, if they have the money.
True. If you have money, you can get decent health care.
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I guess that is why their longevity and infant mortality rates are better than ours. They all come here for medical care.
And the mothers over there probably don’t take crack cocaine, as some do in the U.S.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Health care — a right, not a privilege by Jan Spence Since you think that health care is a right not a privilege, why don’t you move to Russia? What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron. Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs.
If every country in the world were jumping off a cliff would you join them?I can tell right away from your belligerent attitude that you are the kind of thief who would hold a gun to another persons head (i.e. a doctors) and demand that he save your life, because if he won’t, you will kill him. Do you honestly think I care what every other nations health care program is? I hate to be the one to break this to you, but if you live in a coutry with a nationalized health care system, you live in a socialist country. Socialism is one step away from slavery(i.e. communism) The only thing blocking that slavery is the lattitude of the ‘free market’ and the benefits it provides. Mark my words genius: as generation after generation becomes indoctrinated, in the mind control system that is the current state of our *mandatory* public schools, we will see our personal freedoms and our individual rights by sold out from us wholesale, because people like you self have the philosophy ‘I agree, it sucks’…’taxes are a sad part of life’ (your words, not mine) You know, I really don’t remember going on any anti-tax tirades. Let me guess, you are a disgruntled commie, who is turning to socialism as a non-*physically* violent way to get a free lunch and a free check up. I pay taxes for one reason alone. To be protected from thugs who would like to kill me or my loved ones, or to steal from us. Or better yet, why don’t you move to the land of ‘Star Trek’ in the 23rd century? Love to. Bigots like you are mostly a thing of our past.
Hey, I’ll meet you there. As for you childish name calling — bigot – n one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own opinions and prejudices I clearly said ‘go ahead and open your free clinic’ I won’t be going there, and you will have to steal my money to make me pay for it. You said ‘What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron.’ I suggest you get a dictionary (and use it) before you embarass your self further with your intolerant devotion to your own opinions and prejudices. You may think you have a ‘right’ to helath care, but since we do not live in a slave state, or in an idealistic society where robots preform surgery, doctors have a right to charge you money, in exchange for their services. I would never want to live in a society where health care was a ‘right’ because I expect my doctor to *deserve* the money that I give him. Well, first, national health care doesn’t stop doctors from earning money. Second, with a pool of 250 million people, the costs of such a plan COULD be low. Third, the rates doctors charge for their services are sometimes ridiculous and have increased outrageously in some sectors.
Is this the extent of your response to the bulk of my refute? First, tell that to the doctors in Russia. Second, *you* pay for it. The only way you’ll get my money is to steal it. Third, if you don’t like their prices, I suggest you become a doctor and charge lower prices or do the treatment yourself. That’s the beauty of capitalism, if you don’t like the prices, you go to someone who sells what you want for less. Or, you don’t get it. Sorry, but it takes more than 8 years, and a brilliant mind to become a surgeon, and that my friend, will never be free. AND, no other person has a ‘right’ to my money. Your ‘free’ clinic is *paid* for by tax dollars. Yes. If you don’t like paying taxes, though, dear, (dear?!?!) I don’t know where to tell you to go exactly.
Um, excuse me, but it is your prejudice that made you think that I do not like paying taxes. Actually I enjoy it. What I don’t like, is my tax dollars being spent on things other than the defense of this country, which is the only purpose of a *national* governement. But I digress, that is another argument. But we pay for so much corporate welfareand a prison industrial complex and so on.
Don’t forget your philosophy ‘I agree it sucks’….’taxes are a sad part of life’ (your words not mine) You are the one who is powerless, and by your own choice. That is how you will try to trick others into supporting your ideal slave state, by trying to convince us we are all powerless over our governement. I disagree though. I will do everything rational that I can to control my government, in order to make it better for the people it is *supposed* to be protecting. (i.e. all of us, not just beggars) Can’t you get it throughyour sad, narrow little mind that taking care of our most preciousresource–humans—is invariably of benefit to the health of thenation??
Once again, your prejudice has blocked your view of my opinon and what I would choose, if I were legally able. I do not agree that other humans are a resource, but I do have a high value for the humans who decide to live peacefully and rationally. And a lower value for those who wish to steal from me. I understand that you think the best way to benefit the health of the nation is to steal money from people like myself. Is this correct? It can be a fairly low cost for a very large return on the investment.
Right, slavery is low cost, isn’t it. Go ahead and open your free clinic, many poor kids and drunks will thank you. You will be doing them a great service. However, you will never catch me at you clinic, and the only way you will get my money to help pay for it, is if you hold a gun to my head and threaten to lock me up, which, unfortunetly, seems to be the way America is going. Ah, again, your ignorance is stellar. Most national healthcare programs have separate plans. It doesn’t turn everything to shit. It says that the very least shall be pretty decent.
Where did this idea of national health care turning every thing to shit come from, perhaps Russia? It sure did turn everything to shit over there! But, I suppose ignorant people like me wouldn’t know anything about that. That line about ‘the very least shall be pretty decent’ — is that a quote from the communist manifesto? Where is my ‘right’ to keep money that I *earned*? That’s a separate issue.
This is where your attempt to justify thievery comes to it’s *logical* conclusion. However since you cannot defend your ideas with your mind, I am sure you will illogically attempt to use force *again* to convince me of your opinons. This is most definetly not a seperate issue. The free clinic in question was paid for by tax dollars, however much you would like to decieve people into thinking it is free. The very idea of a clinic being "free" is a putrid rotting lie! Money stolen (or offered, irrlevant) from the local taxpayers being used to attract beggars to the area. Well, haight ashbury, if you get the bums out of my neighbor hood, by all means, have a free clinic! I do object to any federal funding of it, and I’m sure many people in CA will object to any state funding. To bad we don’t have a choice. Right now, you have no right to a certain portion of it. That’s America. And I agree it sucks, especially the way recent governments have squandered huge amounts of it (not to mention on the Lewinsky bullshit).
Here is your famous quote about how you think it sucks that America steals money from it’s citizens. If you think it sucks, why do you defend it? Answer: because you are looking to get a *free* lunch, a *free* shower, and now, a check up at *my* expense. emphasizing patient needs over administrative requirements and medical protocol. How long do you honestly think this will last? Russia has fallen, will America have to also? No, but at the rate it is going, it will anyway.
I’m doing everything I can to prevent my self from directly insulting you. I keep reminding myself, as misguided as you are, you are still a human being, and worthy of respect. Don’t you understand the economics of this statement? How can the patients recieve any benefits, if the hospital goes out of business? Because you think your taxes will support it? You know why you don’t move to Russia? Because they don’t offer free health care any more! They tried — it failed. Why don’t you move over there and exerience it first hand! A country that not only ignores its human resources, it is engaged in a war upon its citizens–a classist and racist war.
I agree. I would still rather live here than Russia, although Madagascar looks appealing. One that mishandles money and sucks up to the wealth of corporations.
I partly agree. One that subsidizes tobacco and collective, Soviet-style farming at the expense of individual farmers.
Wait a sec! Is it OK to subsidize a soviet style health care program at the expense of individual taxpayers? I don’t follow your logic, please enlighten me oh un-ignorant one. One that has failed its public school systems. One that perpetuates an enormously costly, utterly failed "War on Some Drugs," the only "success" of which is the perpetuation of a Prison Industrial Complex that specifically targets low income people, generally people of color.
I agree. A country that is undergoing paroxysms of hypocritical moral posturing and not doing a goddamn thing (and the Repugnicans, Dumbocrats, Clinton, Hyde–the whole bunch are a fucking disgrace.)
I don’t think it is them who are a disgrace. I think it is the people who say ‘I agree, it sucks’….’Taxes are a sad part of life’ who are the real disgrace to morality, and to consistency in philosophy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, if
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Response:
Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs.
And people from those countries come to the U.S. for decent health care, if they have the money.
Response:
Medicaid takes 3 cents of every dollar to administrate and the insurance companies take 24 cents of every dollar to administrate.
Response:
Health care — a right, not a privilege by Jan Spence Since you think that health care is a right not a privilege, why don’t you move to Russia?
What? This is the stupid knee-jerk response of a right-wing moron. Germany, France, Canada, England–every industrialized first-world, mostly capitalist nation on the planet has national health care programs. Or better yet, why don’t you move to the land of ‘Star Trek’ in the 23rd century?
Love to. Bigots like you are mostly a thing of our past. You may think you have a ‘right’ to helath care, but since we do not live in a slave state, or in an idealistic society where robots preform surgery, doctors have a right to charge you money, in exchange for their services. I would never want to live in a society where health care was a ‘right’ because I expect my doctor to *deserve* the money that I give him.
Well, first, national health care doesn’t stop doctors from earning money. Second, with a pool of 250 million people, the costs of such a plan COULD be low. Third, the rates doctors charge for their services are sometimes ridiculous and have increased outrageously in some sectors. AND, no other person has a ‘right’ to my money. Your ‘free’ clinic is *paid* for by tax dollars.
Yes. If you don’t like paying taxes, though, dear, I don’t know where to tell you to go exactly. But we pay for so much corporate welfare and a prison industrial complex and so on. Can’t you get it through your sad, narrow little mind that taking care of our most precious resource–humans—is invariably of benefit to the health of the nation?? It can be a fairly low cost for a very large return on the investment. Go ahead and open your free clinic, many poor kids and drunks will thank you. You will be doing them a great service. However, you will never catch me at you clinic, and the only way you will get my money to help pay for it, is if you hold a gun to my head and threaten to lock me up, which, unfortunetly, seems to be the way America is going.
Ah, again, your ignorance is stellar. Most national healthcare programs have separate plans. It doesn’t turn everything to shit. It says that the very least shall be pretty decent. Where is my ‘right’ to keep money that I *earned*?
That’s a separate issue. Right now, you have no right to a certain portion of it. That’s America. And I agree it sucks, especially the way recent governments have squandered huge amounts of it (not to mention on the Lewinsky bullshit). emphasizing patient needs over administrative requirements and medical protocol. How long do you honestly think this will last? Russia has fallen, will America have to also?
No, but at the rate it is going, it will anyway. A country that not only ignores its human resources, it is engaged in a war upon its citizens–a classist and racist war. One that mishandles money and sucks up to the wealth of corporations. One that subsidizes tobacco and collective, Soviet-style farming at the expense of individual farmers. One that has failed its public school systems. One that perpetuates an enormously costly, utterly failed "War on Some Drugs," the only "success" of which is the perpetuation of a Prison Industrial Complex that specifically targets low income people, generally people of color. A country that is undergoing paroxysms of hypocritical moral posturing and not doing a goddamn thing (and the Repugnicans, Dumbocrats, Clinton, Hyde–the whole bunch are a fucking disgrace.) Now, if you can get over your knee-jerk right-wing rhetoric for half a second and engage your brain, you might want to be a little clearer. If you want to just bitch and moan about having to pay taxes, I’m sure you’ll get lots of sympathy–and nothing will change. If you want to start a dialogue about eliminating all taxes, fine. You probably won’t get too far, though. If you want to jabber about guns and militias and some kind of revolution, the FBI will stomp on your sorry little ass easier than a mosquito in winter. But if you want to look at the problems our nation faces and see how we can make it and the world better, then maybe some minimal progress might be made. In the real world, in just about every country, taxes are a sad part of life–made worse by how it is squandered. Real change comes from growing up and has to start with each of us. George M. Carter
Response:
Health care — a right, not a privilege by Jan Spence
Health care is a responsibility of the individual. When an individual demonstrates that they are doing all that they can to live right and take care of their health, then I am ready to help them. Roger
Response:
Health care — a right, not a privilege by Jan Spence
Since you think that health care is a right not a privilege, why don’t you move to Russia? Or better yet, why don’t you move to the land of ‘Star Trek’ in the 23rd century? You may think you have a ‘right’ to helath care, but since we do not live in a slave state, or in an idealistic society where robots preform surgery, doctors have a right to charge you money, in exchange for their services. I would never want to live in a society where health care was a ‘right’ because I expect my doctor to *deserve* the money that I give him. AND, no other person has a ‘right’ to my money. Your ‘free’ clinic is *paid* for by tax dollars. Go ahead and open your free clinic, many poor kids and drunks will thank you. You will be doing them a great service. However, you will never catch me at you clinic, and the only way you will get my money to help pay for it, is if you hold a gun to my head and threaten to lock me up, which, unfortunetly, seems to be the way America is going. Where is my ‘right’ to keep money that I *earned*? emphasizing patient needs over administrative requirements and medical protocol.
How long do you honestly think this will last? Russia has fallen, will America have to also?
Response:
This article is reposted from time to time for the benefit of anyone who is interested. (last posted: 28 June 99)
Still trolling for converts with the same repeat posts? Wake up no one is buying into Crims religious scam. He failed in 1982, 1994 and 1997 to deliver the goods when your magic man idiot treya (a voice in Crims mind) was supposed to appear on tv solving all of the worlds problems. How much money has he wasted on advertising his idiot treya (the world problem solver) from the money of his followers? To make it worse Crim invents stories and then refuses to prove the bs he says. Wake up you were scammed and troll for converts in the appropriate groups. Odie9 Before you buy.
Response:
This article is reposted from time to time for the benefit of anyone who is interested. (last posted: 28 June 99)
-snip- FAQ regarding the above persons pre-fab spam and religious mission. If you have had enough of the above spam read on if not please ignore this message: names – and ISP’s- to spam usenet with his pre-fabricated missionary posts. Some of those names are -or were- If you are sick of these of-topic & repeat missionary posts you can complain to: This person hops from one ISP to another and has in the past also -Austin Independent School District- **on their time**. If you go to this page: http://www.austin.isd.tenet.edu/insupport/acceptenglish.html And check out the **acceptable use section** he may well have breached their TOS as well. If you want to know more about the group he is with and have a bit of a laugh at the same time read on: Facts on the Share International scam : 1. Share International DOES NOT share and your donations to their organization or any books you buy written by Benjamin Creme does not benefit the poor despite any impressions that you may have about them being a humanitarian organization. 2. They claim to be a non profit organization barely breaking even, yet they were able to waste $200,000 on advertising for the appearance of Maitreya -a world Savior- in 1982 -he never showed up- yet they are unable to give one cent to the poor. 3. They hide their so-called non-profit financials from the public. 4. Their leader preaches about giving to the poor, the evils of Capitalism etc but does not help the poor himself and is quite happy to live in a Capitalistic country -with its benefits and UK pension-. 5. They publicly use pictures of the poor in abject poverty and misery -to further their own cause- but do not bother to compensate them for the use of their pictures in public places. 6. Your MONEY goes to paying for so called travel expenses for Benjamin Creme -so he can give lectures in a cult he started up himself-. 7. They preach about the environment but Benjamin’s books are far from environmentally friendly -he does not bother to use recycled paper-. 8. Benjamin Creme falsely predicted -prophesied- in -1982, 1994 & 1997- that Maitreya was going to be interviewed on TV and revealed to the entire world. He never showed up. The same goes for a stock market crash that was supposed to start in Japan by the end of 1994 and was to hit the entire world. Naturally it never happened. 9. This groups claim of Maitreya being the fulfillment of many religious prophecies is a farce. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Bahai ‘ism all sharply refute this with their own writings. 10. Only Benjamin Creme has the true & correct interpretation of all faiths, religions. paths and economic government -according to the voices he hears in his head, said by the devout believers to be ‘telepathic communications from various master of wisdom’-. Funny claims they make but avoid bringing proof for: 1. ‘Maitreya and the Masters have been working with top economists, scientists, financial people, doctors, etc. putting together real plans to fix our real problems.’ 2. According to the Tara Center of Los Angeles Maitreya presented his credentials before 200 media representatives and world leaders at an April 21-22 conference in London. 3. It was also claimed -by Lynne Craft a spokesperson from their group- that a member of the Royal Family and a Christian Church Bishop was present along with various dignitaries and members of the intelligentsia. 4. At this supposed meeting Maitreya is said to have astounded them by "appearing, then disappearing." And it is said "he dematerialized in front of people." It is also claimed that there were about 50 were reporters present during this meeting. 5. They claim that Maitreya’s stimulus already underlies the freedom movement in Europe and Asia. 6. By 1981, -according to Cr
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