Question:

Dear Mr Gary: Thank you so much for your excellent and pretty useful reply. Next time we should start another thread, because I am afraid we are escaping the scope of this one. I do agree with you in respect of cannabis or hash, though I haven’t surpassed the frightening phanthoms of the thirties yet! Surely you end up, out of your brain, I know it as a fact. It is quite expensive too, to consider it a viable treatment (cost per day), there’s no control over purity, dosage, ingesta forms, etc. Side effects are nasty as well, and I tend to get depressed or in a bad mood. But I’ve used it a couple of times as a sort of ‘patch’. These last two days I decreased my dayly dosage from about 60 mg to just 20 mg thanks to hash. This high dosage I’m having now I am quite aware is unnecessary as well as ineffective (how could I ever not have fallen asleep with 75 mg?). Two months ago I finished withdrawing following Heather Asthon’s scheme (perhaps a bit more accelerated in the last week) with no problems. But then, after 11 days I felt horribly bad and depressed and, paradoxically, sometimes quite drowsy. So I re-recruited myself back into valium at 20 mg per day. It worked fine, but I preserved a trend to abuse and some sort of craving so, when circumstances became more stressful to me I just raised dosage. Mysteriously, I am quite allright, appart from minor memory losses and insomnia, so I don’t give it too much importance. Withdrawing is now for me a long term goal. But I would be glad to reduce dosage. I know insomnia wipes away itself normaly given time but you know we all are pretty impatient on this matters. In respect of melatonin, it’s not approved in Spain. There are only precursors to prescribe. I could buy it over the net, but I don’t really trust those sites. Testosterone? Yeah, I can ask for that. For sure my libido is on vacations most of the time, ha ha ha! My GP though is porrly informed on this matters. She said to me last time that vallium ‘was not a benzodiacepine, but an anticonvulsivant’, which astonished me you can’t imgine how. She prescribes me obediently, listens and is pretty human in the clinical interview, but I don’t know if it woul be wise to play the role of an ultra-informed patient. She surely would put an hypocondriac label on my back and maybe recommend me a pschiatrist, which I want to avoid if possible. I don’t even know if testosterone test are usual or if she would faint if I mention it! She might think testosterone is an analgesic, ha ha ha! No, seriously, I’ll take your advice very much into account. thanks again. Finally, as a proffesional curious, I would like to ask you a few more questions: How do you rate wikipedia’s info on all this matters? What about L-Theanine (that seems to be approved in the EU as well)?

Response:

You must be related to Margrove.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mr Gary: Thank you so much for your excellent and pretty useful reply. Next time we should start another thread, because I am afraid we are escaping the scope of this one. I do agree with you in respect of cannabis or hash, though I haven’t surpassed the frightening phanthoms of the thirties yet! Surely you end up, out of your brain, I know it as a fact. It is quite expensive too, to consider it a viable treatment (cost per day), there’s no control over purity, dosage, ingesta forms, etc. Side effects are nasty as well, and I tend to get depressed or in a bad mood. But I’ve used it a couple of times as a sort of ‘patch’. These last two days I decreased my dayly dosage from about 60 mg to just 20 mg thanks to hash. This high dosage I’m having now I am quite aware is unnecessary as well as ineffective (how could I ever not have fallen asleep with 75 mg?). Two months ago I finished withdrawing following Heather Asthon’s scheme (perhaps a bit more accelerated in the last week) with no problems. But then, after 11 days I felt horribly bad and depressed and, paradoxically, sometimes quite drowsy. So I re-recruited myself back into valium at 20 mg per day. It worked fine, but I preserved a trend to abuse and some sort of craving so, when circumstances became more stressful to me I just raised dosage. Mysteriously, I am quite allright, appart from minor memory losses and insomnia, so I don’t give it too much importance. Withdrawing is now for me a long term goal. But I would be glad to reduce dosage. I know insomnia wipes away itself normaly given time but you know we all are pretty impatient on this matters. In respect of melatonin, it’s not approved in Spain. There are only precursors to prescribe. I could buy it over the net, but I don’t really trust those sites. Testosterone? Yeah, I can ask for that. For sure my libido is on vacations most of the time, ha ha ha! My GP though is porrly informed on this matters. She said to me last time that vallium ‘was not a benzodiacepine, but an anticonvulsivant’, which astonished me you can’t imgine how. She prescribes me obediently, listens and is pretty human in the clinical interview, but I don’t know if it woul be wise to play the role of an ultra-informed patient. She surely would put an hypocondriac label on my back and maybe recommend me a pschiatrist, which I want to avoid if possible. I don’t even know if testosterone test are usual or if she would faint if I mention it! She might think testosterone is an analgesic, ha ha ha! No, seriously, I’ll take your advice very much into account. thanks again. Finally, as a proffesional curious, I would like to ask you a few more questions: How do you rate wikipedia’s info on all this matters? What about L-Theanine (that seems to be approved in the EU as well)?

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now. Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds and how in the world do you stop taking a drug like klonopin or xanax if you have taken them over two decades. I was initially started on xanax and for about 7 or eight years, it controlled my anxiety and panic and allowed me to live what I consider a normal life. Then, it just quit working no matter how many pills I would swallow. I was then switched over to klonopin and it worked beautifully until now. Can anything else be done about this hellish nightmare? Who here is controlling their PD / GAD with meds other than benzo’s? I would be more than happy to take the benzos the remainder of my natural life but they have started not to work. The klonopin is actually causing me more anxiety when I initially take it although it still blocks the panic. I prayed that this day would never come when I started on the klonopin but it is here. OMG! Carl

Response:

You need to be gentle to yourself.  A side effect of any benzo, when you stop taking them, is that your anxiety will increase.  That’s the drug withdrawl.  I have taken them all, and I have come off and coming off is hell emotionally.  Have you ever taken any therapy to learn how to cope with the terribly scary and uncomfortable feelings of anxiety? In my experience, therapy combined with meds, I now take Seroquel and Risperdol.  I have had more anxiety lately than I have in a long time, but it is tolerable because I have learned some techniques to get through the attacks.  The number one thing to remember, and keep telling yourself when it gets really bad is that these feelings are not going to kill you.  Self talk can help "I can handle this.  This is not going to kill me".  Mantras, deep breaths, whatever it takes.  You will be ok Carl, you’ll get through this switch.

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

What exactly is the paradoxical reaction? Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds….

I believe there’s Valium and Ativan also….Some folks take care of their Panic with an antidepressant. I know of an older woman in my old support group whose Paxil kicked in in three weeks at 20 mg. She doesn’t take Xanax anymore except for 1/8 mg at bedtime. She’s been doing this routine since 1995 and hasn’t changed her Paxil dosage since then. I don’t have panic attacks but I have noticed that a small amount of Benadryl–not so much that you get drowsy–completely calms me down–mind and body, better than any Klonopin does. It helped with the initial anxiety/agitation when I was weaning onto Zoloft. I no longer use it but it sure had an amazingly calming effect on that initial anxiety.

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

What exactly is the paradoxical reaction? I take it now and it is causing me anxiety. I upped my dose and now I have constant eyeball twitching and watery eyes. I don’t see any way out of this hell. The klonopin was working great and now this. Xanax did the same thing to me after taking it for eight years. I had made my mind up that I was going to take klonopin until the day I die but everyday now, it is starting to work less and less. I am in w/d’s taking the drug. This indeed is a living hell. Carl Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds….

I believe there’s Valium and Ativan also….Some folks take care of their Panic with an antidepressant. I know of an older woman in my old support group whose Paxil kicked in in three weeks at 20 mg. She doesn’t take Xanax anymore except for 1/8 mg at bedtime. She’s been doing this routine since 1995 and hasn’t changed her Paxil dosage since then. I don’t have panic attacks but I have noticed that a small amount of Benadryl–not so much that you get drowsy–completely calms me down–mind and body, better than any Klonopin does. It helped with the initial anxiety/agitation when I was weaning onto Zoloft. I no longer use it but it sure had an amazingly calming effect on that initial anxiety.

Response:

ssri like lexapro has helped me a ton!  still take a low dose of klon at times. good luck Lobo

Response:

Mr. Amor:  I don’t personally put much faith in the "added substance" concept for reducing physical dependence on valium and similar drugs.  The plain fact is that no other drugs really do *exactly* the same thing, and so there is some level of discomfort (although tolerable) in reducing them, particularly tolerable if they have a long half-life, such as that of diazepam.  I have found that ibuprofen can help with joint pains, which sometimes come with reduction in Xanax dosing. I find, almost without exception, that people who use cannabis products on a regular basis are (and sometimes it takes a while to ferret this out, but it always eventually surfaces…) somewhat fucked-up in the head.  It was a fun drug in one’s twenties, but anything beyond that, and it’s time to move on. Not to mention that it often makes anxiety disorders much worse… Ramelteon (proprietary name = Rozerem, from Takeda Pharmaceuticals) is ostensibly to mimic the effects of Melatonin, by interfacing with MT1 and MT2 receptors.  I guess my question is, why not just use melatonin?  Is Ramelteon more "receptor specific" or something?  It is being VERY aggressively marketed locally here, perhaps I’ll get some samples and let you know what happened. Truly though, every time I actually did successfully reduce the consumption of benzo’s it was because I just decided it was *absolutely going to happen, no matter what* – and I’m the type of person that, once that’s been decided, it IS going to happen, no matter what. I share your dislike for insomnia, although I have come to realize that it’s generally not fatal – unless you fall asleep at the wheel of a car.  I do agree with the basic premise of Heather’s protocol, but I don’t think I could actually BE on that much Valium, because I’d be sleeping all day long. LOL. Every single thing I end up reading about Gingko is that is really has little, if any clinical effect.  Yet they sell it all day long, so somebody must like it. I also have curiosity about SAM-e, and would like to try it some day, but it’s rather pricey, and quite frankly, my mood is almost always either "good" or "very good". Get your testosterone level checked.  I found out, totally by accident, that mine was low, started the Androgel thing at 5 grams/day, and my mood has become even more "casual" (except at certain obvious times, when that androgen would dictate otherwise). Please do excuse my commentary about cannabis – I’m sure there are some people who do o.k. with it, I just haven’t met them yet. G Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your oppinion as to withdraw with the aid of third substances? I surely know the result is just to substitute one adiction for other (a common practice in modern medicine though), but I’ve been reseearching the possibilities of  some aids, or suppossed aids, and I really would like to know what you make of them. Here is a list: – Melatonin (my main problem during withdrawal is insomnia). – SAM-e (although I am not depressed). – Ramelteon (which is not marketed yet in the EU and is hugely expensive over the net). – Cannabis/Hash (helps me sleeping, but I know its long term side effects. It is expensive as well.). – Gingko Biloba (to improve somwhat my concentration and memmory). I have tried, antihistaminics and Herba Hiperici without major sucess. I get too much residual drowsiness from the first and a somewhat ambiguous effect from the latter (appart from its  elevated cost per treatment a day). What other strategies or authors woyld you reccomend to consult for guidelines on withdrawal. I’m medically counselled, but my GP has a poor knwoledge of BZ’s (she affirms valium is an anticonvulsivant, but not a BZ, and has no anti-ansiolitic properties), but she’s quite talkative and does me good. I know there’s the ‘add no more to the cocktail’ kind of guideline regarding this matters, but I simply can’t stand insomnia (although having developed and exersiced behavorist tecniques to achieve sleep). As to Prof. Ahston’s manual, you are right in certain aspects. She is a convinced opponent of BZ’s, which they do have a wide range of medical usages, if handle properly. But, on the other hand, she is quite cautious about forcing anyone to withdraw, and is one of the main voices alerting about the widespreaded abuse and ignorance on their prescrition and use  worldwide. Switching yo diazepam worked extraordinarialy good for me, but I no longer worry about a complete withdraw at present. And finally, what do you make about  GP Claire Weekles’s book ‘Self Help For Your Nerves’? It is outdated, but contains what I consider some appropiated points of view towars nervous disorders. She’s on the wikipedia, if you are not up to the task to get the book. Thanks for your time and patience GFX. Regards.

Response:

in light of my post that prompted you to get angry, you have nothing to feel badly about.  I was the one who causd a prob and had to fix ‘er up! I’m not bi, I’m married and take fidelity very seriously!  I just had to ask the question!  Wanted to see what the response would be!  Have a great day tanya!!

Response:

Pardon?  I need an interpreter to understand you.  Was I drunk last night?  EXTREMELY.  Kids and husband were gone, and a lot of wine and my computer seemed like a good way to act out in light of feeling so out of control of everything around me lately.  I was wrong.

wowwwwwww…. holy CRIMINY !  i thought ya just hated my guts ! thank you so much !  now i feel like crap for goin’ balistic. Mmm-hmm! Am I a dyke?  No, but would bi qualify me?

well yeah !  if yer bisexual, i’ll buy ya sumthin’ if you’ll get sexual ! I don’t have a problem with you tanya, I created a few issues on a few of my groups last night, and had to repent through my group therapy (a RL thing) today.  I owe you an apology, so, sorry!

thank you.  i’m sorry i went so off in the wild blue yonder, myself. i’ve been doin’ that alot lately. ya totally rock for saying that. xoxoxo ~t

Response:

What is your oppinion as to withdraw with the aid of third substances? I surely know the result is just to substitute one adiction for other (a common practice in modern medicine though), but I’ve been reseearching the possibilities of  some aids, or suppossed aids, and I really would like to know what you make of them. Here is a list: – Melatonin (my main problem during withdrawal is insomnia). – SAM-e (although I am not depressed). – Ramelteon (which is not marketed yet in the EU and is hugely expensive over the net). – Cannabis/Hash (helps me sleeping, but I know its long term side effects. It is expensive as well.). – Gingko Biloba (to improve somwhat my concentration and memmory). I have tried, antihistaminics and Herba Hiperici without major sucess. I get too much residual drowsiness from the first and a somewhat ambiguous effect from the latter (appart from its  elevated cost per treatment a day). What other strategies or authors woyld you reccomend to consult for guidelines on withdrawal. I’m medically counselled, but my GP has a poor knwoledge of BZ’s (she affirms valium is an anticonvulsivant, but not a BZ, and has no anti-ansiolitic properties), but she’s quite talkative and does me good. I know there’s the ‘add no more to the cocktail’ kind of guideline regarding this matters, but I simply can’t stand insomnia (although having developed and exersiced behavorist tecniques to achieve sleep). As to Prof. Ahston’s manual, you are right in certain aspects. She is a convinced opponent of BZ’s, which they do have a wide range of medical usages, if handle properly. But, on the other hand, she is quite cautious about forcing anyone to withdraw, and is one of the main voices alerting about the widespreaded abuse and ignorance on their prescrition and use  worldwide. Switching yo diazepam worked extraordinarialy good for me, but I no longer worry about a complete withdraw at present. And finally, what do you make about  GP Claire Weekles’s book ‘Self Help For Your Nerves’? It is outdated, but contains what I consider some appropiated points of view towars nervous disorders. She’s on the wikipedia, if you are not up to the task to get the book. Thanks for your time and patience GFX. Regards.

Response:

this Tanya, good english aside, you are right.  Except that you told Carl it may kill him because you know, yet you are posting so you are WRONG!!!!

huh?  because i ain’t dead i’m wrong? well, i guess that was just doctor jibber jabber.   (am i in da twilight zone?)  and i also know that eatin’ cyanide’ll kill ya but i ain’t dead from it so does that mean i’m WRONG?  i think a massive heart attack could kill ya too, but since i’m postin’, i’m WRONG? yeah, it may kill ya because i know.  i know because i was in that arena and it’s a well-known fact. jumpin’ off’ah 12 story building may kill ya too, but since i’m Y’ALL GO JUMP !  ::shakin head’ yippy yi yo yippy yi yippy yay yippy yo yippy yi yi LOLOL  Disputing.  Feel it?  Hear it?  yah I’m in a mood to argue.

thas cool… that sounds like fun.  go argue then !  i’ll cheer ya on !  So what, wanna make something of it?

uhhhhhhh, are you drunk, Canada Girl?  cuz if you ain’t, i’d highly suggest ya say y’are…. that’s be a cool excuse for yer reaction. <smile Carl, it is not easy especially given your hugely rediculous time on these meds, it WILL hurt.  no doubt about it.  But it IS possible. But not without some faction of how to deal with the ISSUES without meds.

(i dunno know what Canada meant but "faction" was out’ah context there, any way ya cut it. i think she meant "idea" of how to deal with… etc.) personally, Carl.  i believe panic can be and mostly IS borne of ‘non-issue’ related physical phenomenons, possibly psychologically driven, possibly not.  that’s just me, tho. Carl?  yer time on these meds is "RE"… i mean "RIDICULOUS ! " (maybe Canada only stays on her barrage of druggie wuggies for short period of time, i dunno, i dunno what she assumes as ridiculous…  i do know she thinks YOUR time on your meds is ridiculous, so BAM !   (i guess) LOLOL … but i’m thinkin’ whatever time you’ve been on your meds is ridiculous only if you think so, and i, for one, don’t.  good lord, i’ve been on xanax for 8, almost 9 years and have had bouts of anger with it, bouts of cold turkeyin’ it that  has put me in ICU, once i was told i was 2-4 hours from death. Canada Girl don’t like me, Carl… for whatever reason. comin’ off benzos will kill ya, Carl, unsupervised or without a program, Carl, for whatever reason. please take tha more important of tha two, Carl.  there really should be only one issue here, but Canada’s seen to it that there ain’t. i ain’t here ta prove nothin. xoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

  yah I’m in a mood to argue.  So what, wanna make something of it?

nah, maybe ya just think it’s cool ta be’ah sociopath. personally, i think yer just’ah dyke. i see nothin’ ta make somethin’ of. <sweet smile ~tanya

Response:

Pardon?  I need an interpreter to understand you.  Was I drunk last night?  EXTREMELY.  Kids and husband were gone, and a lot of wine and my computer seemed like a good way to act out in light of feeling so out of control of everything around me lately.  I was wrong.  Mmm-hmm! Am I a dyke?  No, but would bi qualify me?  I don’t have a problem with you tanya, I created a few issues on a few of my groups last night, and had to repent through my group therapy (a RL thing) today.  I owe you an apology, so, sorry!

Response:

In general, I do not agree with Heather Ashton, who is a major opponent of benzodiazepine use, however she does have some good tapering charts, which you can probably find at the following link… Her strategy is to gradually get the person on Valium (longer half-life, so less perceptible drop in serum level as the dose is lowered) and then slowly wean the Valium away. It is a good strategy for some people. http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s5 Please notez bien that I am not dispensing any sort of advice as to whether or not to discontinue Klonopin, initiate Valium or any other drug additions or subtractions – that is for YOUR doctor to do.  I’m simply making information available.  Many physicians, unfortunately, are not aware of various options open to them, with regard to this issue. G

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now. Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds and how in the world do you stop taking a drug like klonopin or xanax if you have taken them over two decades.

ya gotta titrate off a benzo slowly.  Gary knows the perfect way, but i fergot. don’t let anybody tell ya that comin’ off a benzo won’t kill ya cuz it DAMN WELL WILL, unless my 3 hospitalizations in 3 seperate states had doctors that somehow collaborated on this issue.  they’re anti-siezure meds and they’re they’re the only drug (well, besides alcohol) that have a life threatening potential if stopped el BAM-O. i don’t care who disputes this, cuz i lived it and it’s’ah fact, jack. so ask Gary how ta titrate off and if ya don’t believe ME about it bein’ deadly, try it and see.   (personally, i’d just take my word for it even if i am wrong…WHICH I AIN’T !!! ) ~t

Response:

I would strongly recommend you the reading of the book from PHD Claire Weekles "Self Help For Your Nerves", wich deals with panic disorders in an enlightning way (although some sections are out of date). Reffering to benzos, consult your doctor. You are obviosly tolerant, and clonazepam (Klonopin) might not be as strong a dose compare to the equivalent you were taking of Xanax. Here are two very good links if you wish to explore more (but don’t get too much obsessed about it, as they are telling you in other post, everything will be fine given time): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klonopin http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm (the latter without any intention of having you withdrawing inmediately, only as a reference, specially the estimated potency conversion table beteween BZ’s).

Response:

Canadagirl:  Hello; I get the feeling that you were on one of these meds and had a "less than optimal experience" or something.  I may be entirely wrong about that.  In any case, lets get to the facts:  Abrupt cessation of a "potent" benzodiazepine (or actually any benzodiazepine) can cause a person to be suddenly in a clinical situation called "status epilepticus", which means continuous seizure (usually it is a visible type, but not always). Status epilepticus results in other clinical manifestations, most notably hypoxia, neurologic damage and cardiac arrhythmia (sometimes due to high serum potassium, which also arises from the seizure state).   It is not ALWAYS fatal, but it certainly can be.  The goal, in managing a status epilepticus situation is to assure adequate oxygenation, obtain a blood pressure if at all possible, get an IV line established immediately, and generally (unless contra-indicated for some specific reason, such as allergy) to administer IV Valium or IV Ativan.  The seizures generally stop almost immediately following dosage of an IV benzodiazepine.  I prefer diazepam, because post-ictal patients are usually a little bit hypertensive, and this drug seems to mitigate that better than Ativan does, but some people prefer to use Ativan.  I have been in this situation in hospitals many, many times – the causes of the status epilepticus were not always known to me, having just come upon the situation, but sometimes it was definitely because the person had unknowingly been discontinued off a Xanax / Klonopin/ Ativan prescription that they had been taking for a long time. The risk for seizure from abrupt stoppage of a benzodiazepine increases in direct proportion to how high the dose of the benzo was, and how long the person was on it prior to abruptly stopping it. Actually, that is unfortunately one of the most common reasons why people end up being abruptly discontinued off their benzo regimen – they end up in a car accident, they show up in a hospital, and nobody knows that they were on Xanax 1 mg four times a day for the past 5 years.  Subsequently, they don’t get any, and voila, they get rather agitated, hypertensive, and start seizing.  I recommend a bracelet or some other identification to try to prevent this. No one, and I mean NO ONE should EVER stop taking any benzodiazepine abruptly – status epilepticus has the potential to be fatal, so why risk it? (Recall that there is generally no IV equipment or oxygen at home, so if it happens in your laundry room or a department store, the outcome could be much worse).  The drug MUST be tapered downward.  In the case of Klonopin, it *ideally* would be reduced by 1/4 mg every two weeks, although some people can reduce it by 1/2 mg every two weeks.  In no case should it be reduced any faster than 1/2 mg daily every three days, and that tapering schedule would be virtually impossible for a long-term benzo user to achieve. That you cite a "hugely ridiculous" time spent on Klonopin shows some sort of bias – some people benefit from long-term use, others do not.  There is no "one size fits all" for this class of medications, in terms of agent, dose, or duration of use.  Sadly, some people are only able to obtain relief from crippling anxiety disorders by use of this class of drugs, and do not derive benefit from the SSRI’s – which I see as unfortunate primarily because the character of anxiety-reduction from an SSRI, from my own personal view, is qualitatively different (and slightly better, in some "hard to explain" way).  For the record, I use an SSRI and Xanax, and have for 16 years now. You are absolutely correct about the last thing you said.  It is very difficult to discontinue benzodiazepines (which Carl has been using for some time now) without therapy and a lot of work on coping strategies for anxiety, dealing with "issues" etc..  It is also sometimes necessary to help these people with things to help them sleep, or anti-histamines etc..  And yes, it is absolutely possible to taper off them, but it is difficult – again the difficulty is usually in direct proportion to how high the dose was, and how long they were used.  Some people do need to stay on them, and do much better on them than they do "off" them. I’m glad that you’re able to do well off benzodiazepines, in that they are somewhat inconvenient (well, at least I think they are…) but for some they are necessary in order to facilitate a normal life. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tanya, good english aside, you are right.  Except that you told Carl it may kill him because you know, yet you are posting so you are WRONG!!!! Disputing.  Feel it?  Hear it?  yah I’m in a mood to argue.  So what, wanna make something of it?  Carl, it is not easy especially given your hugely rediculous time on these meds, it WILL hurt.  no doubt about it. But it IS possible.  But not without some faction of how to deal with the ISSUES without meds.

Response:

Tanya, good english aside, you are right.  Except that you told Carl it may kill him because you know, yet you are posting so you are WRONG!!!!  Disputing.  Feel it?  Hear it?  yah I’m in a mood to argue.  So what, wanna make something of it?  Carl, it is not easy especially given your hugely rediculous time on these meds, it WILL hurt.  no doubt about it.  But it IS possible.  But not without some faction of how to deal with the ISSUES without meds.

Response:

Question:

In article <cm3c9v$dq…@freenet9.carleton.ca

, bc461

@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes: > > In article <cm2m3d$dp…@freenet9.carleton.ca

, bc461

> > @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… > >> "Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes: > >> > In article <cm0r1o$f4…@freenet9.carleton.ca

, bc461

> >> > @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… > >> >> "sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: > >> >> > Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we > >> >> > meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. > >> >> > I second every single word she’s said. > >> >> > And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing > >> >> > all the time. > >> >> Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break > >> >> patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to > >> >> stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for > >> >> the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and > >> >> choices. > >> >> I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. > >> >> It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs > >> >> spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he > >> >> defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, > >> >> as he saw it. > >> >> A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" > >> >> and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". > >> >> Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I > >> >> have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my > >> >> thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our > >> >> reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I > >> >> mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. > >> >> But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that > >> >> reality ours or not. > >> >> Concrete example: > >> >> Two poele wake up in a same town. > >> >> It is raining. > >> >> One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my > >> >> plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it > >> >> off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". > >> >> Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. > >> >> "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more > >> >> energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". > >> >> I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the > >> >> example. > >> >> In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. > >> >> The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or > >> >> soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is > >> >> the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the > >> >> other:). > >> >> The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. > >> >> -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all > >> >> in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. > >> >> F…weather…:(". > >> >> The other wakes up: > >> >> ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to > >> >> recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is > >> >> bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try > >> >> and go out more to meet poeple!:)". > >> >> Same event. rain then sunshine. > >> >> Same reality. > >> >> And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. > >> >> One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. > >> >> Both were real weekends to each of them. > >> >> Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) > >> >> It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) > >> >> We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a > >> >> depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. > >> >> Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! > >> >> They will think that that is easy for you to say. > >> >> Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:) > >> > sorry this is where you lost me. depression is a serious disorder and > >> > not a matter of positive thinking as you seem to be saying. > >> I really doubt that I really would have " lost you". > >> Perhaps your thoughts added somethign to this that lost you: where did I > >> say it was not a serious condition…?;-) > >> I just said that it is being depressed that is very hard. Not being happy!:) > >> But that to a depressed person, it seems like it is being happy that is hard. > >> And you answer to that "depression is very serious"…? > >> That it exactly IS. > >> There is a kind of depression that is chemical and so so so deep that a > >> person can not even follow thoughts or rerad or even think, when it gets > >> that bad. > >> BUT those cases are NOT the majority and by far. > > try not to patronize me. you know nothing about me or my background to > > make such assumptions about me. > ? > I lack seing where assumptions were made. Cause I expressed doubts? > Expressing doubts is not assuming, just expressing doubts, which means > that one is not sure. Not being sure is not assuming. And > when that is followed by question marks, it does not assume, it asks. > Perhaps you assumed otherwise…?

setting boundary: oh cut the crap. that shit doesn’t werk on me. ending discussion: hace a nice day! bye!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes:

In article <cm3c9v$dq…@freenet9.carleton.ca, bc461 @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… "Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes: In article <cm2m3d$dp…@freenet9.carleton.ca, bc461 @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… "Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes: In article <cm0r1o$f4…@freenet9.carleton.ca, bc461 @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… "sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. I second every single word she’s said. And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing all the time. Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and choices. I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, as he saw it. A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that reality ours or not. Concrete example: Two poele wake up in a same town. It is raining. One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the example. In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the other:). The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. F…weather…:(". The other wakes up: ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try and go out more to meet poeple!:)". Same event. rain then sunshine. Same reality. And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. Both were real weekends to each of them. Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! They will think that that is easy for you to say. Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:) sorry this is where you lost me. depression is a serious disorder and not a matter of positive thinking as you seem to be saying. I really doubt that I really would have " lost you". Perhaps your thoughts added somethign to this that lost you: where did I say it was not a serious condition…?;-) I just said that it is being depressed that is very hard. Not being happy!:) But that to a depressed person, it seems like it is being happy that is hard. And you answer to that "depression is very serious"…? That it exactly IS. There is a kind of depression that is chemical and so so so deep that a person can not even follow thoughts or rerad or even think, when it gets that bad. BUT those cases are NOT the majority and by far. try not to patronize me. you know nothing about me or my background to make such assumptions about me. ? I lack seing where assumptions were made. Cause I expressed doubts? Expressing doubts is not assuming, just expressing doubts, which means that one is not sure. Not being sure is not assuming. And when that is followed by question marks, it does not assume, it asks. Perhaps you assumed otherwise…? setting boundary: oh cut the crap. that shit doesn’t werk on me. ending discussion: hace a nice day! bye!

It *did* work just fine:) —

Response:

poet (p…@asarian-host.net) writes:

X-No-Archive: yes In article cm2m3d$dp…@freenet9.carleton.ca, Eleonore Beaudoin at bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA wrote on 10/31/04 6:33: And those cases are not on the Internet, because to be here, one has to be able to think and to act. yes, they are. i was one of them, and there are many others on the depression support groups.

What an interestign snippage job, poet… had you left that aprt where I said precisely that if one can still get on the net, then they still can think, still can follow thoughts and still can with good will follow thought to help them imrpove their state of mind, and the words that said that thsoe who;s depression is so deep that theyc an not even think anymore *can then not be on the net*, this woudl ahve read so other than you sort of present it here in this snippage;-) Filtering…?;-) I have been workign with deprssed ones here in the past years. A very very few from those years still are here that coudl say so, which shows that I am more than aware of their being on the net. In act I talked abut those on the nt, sayign that those that can not even follow thoughts anymore, so deep in severe deprssion that they are, can not get on the net. Takes a series of thoughts to get online, and if on is able of that, one has hat it takes to try and turn it around with suppot and help. And medication if so they are needing, as I also did say. I still soemtimes happen to exchange with people suffering from depression in that way.Soem from thsi ng, too. As I said in another post, though, I also wanna live things that are not only helpships, and have in the last year left it more ot others in lin with that. Everyoen needsa a sabbatical every now and then I guess:). But this being said, I still passed info and such to a few this year, and excnaged with them, if in a lighter ay, on depression and how to turn their state of mind through thoughts, around. I never said that there was no one in depression on the internet as your snippage falsly leads to believe. I said that if one is beyiond the point of havign thoughts, and thus being able to work on them, they then woudl be beyind the point of thinking up to not being able to log on the itnernet. That logging on needs to follw a serioes of thoughts, and that thud one is still able to think. That then oen can if hehy so will, try and learn how to handle their thoughts and turn them around. I also, before you woudl try and say that too, hich is a common filtering reaction as explainewd before, never said thatmeds are not needed and repated that a few times already. Meds help. Soemtimes thy migtjh help enough that oen can later take it from there, their thought levels and stamina or energy levl having rised enough for them to take it from there. Others will just fall back into depression of you take the meds away, which means they then are still in depression, just medicated depression. Takes more than meds sometims to make things turn around, then. If it takes no more than that for you, count yourself lucky:). Not everyoen is the same:)  (and there are others no longer with us for the

obvious reasons…)

yes, in the 11 months I had no puter at some point, two of them suicided. And I miss them more than anyone else here, as I was most likely way closer to them than anyone else on this ng. Only, without a puter, I coudl not be there to try and help them turn thei thoughts around for 11 long months, and two gave up and suicided. Therefore I am *very aware* of that, contrary, again, to what you seem to want to portray or filter and interpret. i had severe clinical depression, diagnosed by a

psychiatrist, it took a couple of years of medication and therapy

***and therapy**, did you say. In other words, took more than meds, if it took meds too. Therapy I supposed helped you have a look at your thoughts too…? Glad to see you agree but just had filtered my words out:) in interpeting them:).  to even

get it under control. and online is where i got most of my support.

There you go:) As I was saying, if one can get online, they then can get help ther too, as it means that they can by then follow thoughts and find support and help :some ways of thinking, some exchanges offered you support and helped you out. I see you agree again, and repeat what I have said, if you do so as if I had said the opposite. Just an instance of filtering and interpreting:).  you’re

not utterly helpless (although you may have moments of it), but you are utterly without hope.

Ah, it IS depression, after all, is it not?:) Glad to see you agree with me:), if again, the snippage you made shows filtering remains and still coudl be worked on:). You are confirming what i said. You did not only take meds, but also had therapy, and found support online. You then coudl follow thoughts. And when you could, you could be online, and found help there. Which comes back to what I have said. So long as one can follow thoughts enough to get online, for instance, that means they can alslo find thoughts that help, and can find to turn their state of mind and thoughts around, and can learn to keep their thoughst in check to get better. Why this insistance to find disagreement where one agrees with you, poet…? Perhaps there still is work that can be done in your filterign what you read or take in or refuse as thoughts that yet are in full agreement with your own words:) C

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Response:

Okayyyy. Now FNet says I have 54 minutes…Pant pant pant:) Let;s see if that is true this time:) poet (p…@asarian-host.net) writes:

X-No-Archive: yes In article cm2tff$lb…@freenet9.carleton.ca, Eleonore Beaudoin at bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA wrote on 10/31/04 8:39: And those cases are not on the Internet, because to be here, one has to be able to think and to act. yes, they are. i was one of them, and there are many others on the depression support groups.

No, you misread me or I miswrote myself My words were about that level of depression which is far from the most common, and that is so deep that oen can not even be reached anymore, so out of it all that they can not follow any lin of thinking at all. I once only saw it, and in a documentary, as that deep level is so deep that one can not fucntion at all anymore. Read here that they can not eat, and coudl not vn know what to do would they be able to sense that they need to go pee. They coudl not think of gett9gn up and walking to the wqashrrom, sort of thing. That, when the chemical unbal;ance is truly so severe that it gets to that point. Of course there is a lot of notches between that deep and other levels of depression. When one is in that extremely severe state where they can not be reached by the outside and can in fact not even follow a train of their own thoughts anymore, thy of course coudl not manage to get on the internet anymore than they coudl get dressed or feed themself. The documenary i saw n this was so mind balsting…It felt scary. This man, who I seem to rememebr but coudl not swear to it, was a reporter by career, sudenly enterd depression where within weeks he was at that completely unreachable state. He was filmed durign those weeks where they woudl show you some parts of that dosumented episode, which truely si scary so far gone and so so so much in pain one yet is. As of all they feel is raw pain, and without any thoughts yet being there… Then they showed you the guy after he got better and coudl talk bout it, and the expression in his eyes sowed the total fer he ahd of ever beign there again…The fear level of that deep pain wa such that you felt that fear in yourself just seing it in his eyes…. There is no way then that someoen at that level coudl have any train of thoughtsof their own, and most certainly not follow any other train of thoughts either. If oen can get online, it means the are not at that deep a level as that unreachable thing. It is like you said, in a way: you were sufferign from depression. You git mneds and therapy, but you still coudol find help. It happened to be online you foudn support, or some support was online for you. That means that you still coudl then think, and find posts that were heklpful to you. What that aprt of my post meant was that soem people are in such a deeep deep state that they coudl not even get online. They just coudl not fucntionally do that. The of course tryign to help those change thoughts they donlt even have anymore is not what they need nor what coudl help them.

What an interestign snippage job, poet… had you left that aprt where I said precisely that if one can still get on the net, then they still can think, still can follow thoughts and still can with good will follow thought to help them imrpove their state of mind, and the words that said that thsoe who;s depression is so deep that theyc an not even think anymore *can then not be on the net*, this woudl ahve read so other than you sort of present it here in this snippage;-) Filtering…?;-) no, tired.

Happens. I was quite tired myself as I wrote some posts this early morning. The graves level shows in how many typos I do, at times. Other days it is quite high and there are not as many typos, Go figure:). But usually, the more he typos, the higher graves and the metablism run. Tiring that can be, for sure, to live 15 days in one:),and yet do close to nothing:) Nice though tht today I coudl manage to clan the yard from the dog messes, and wash five carpets n the fence, with the garden hose and a floor brish, before they can dry and be taken in to ahve a new wash, by rented machine, later on. I had left those for some on the fence weeks ago, where the wind threw them in the mud, and where by nwo they reqyuird a thorough rinse before they coudl get in the hosue to be machine washed. Gald that si out of the way, if I still ahve two in the basement that will need cleaned to. Maybe the machine will be enough for those though. Just messier when washed inside, as they are the …what do youc all those? Ya know, like the carpets that are nto wall to wall, but with designs on them, often floral or geometric, that one puts in the middle of a room or hallway or in front pf the couch? Makes a mess in the hosue when you wash those with a machine cause of course the wate goes on the floor too, not just on the loose carpets, heh.  

i didn’t agree that being able to go online is any indication of anything.

Rather, what I meant was that not beign able to follow any thoughts at all was indicative of being too deep into depression or chemical unbalance, etc, to be able to follow enough to find any help online, were it available.

even the most depressed person can think, albeit not always rationally,

In factk, as I mentiond abov, that is not always so, if I trust that dicumentary I saw a fw years ago (two? three?) where that patient certtainly was completely out of touch with everything. Almost like autistic level, if I mmay xprewss it this way to try and convey just how deep out of touch it was. And som autistic persons react to some stuimuli more than that person they filmed in th deepest of hsi type of depression. Scary stuff. It is alreDY AMAZING TO EM THAT THEY COUDL HELP HIM AND BRING HIM BACK FROM THERE AT ALL, AT THAT DEEP LEVEL. Darned be the caos key, I will ignore it:):).  and

it doesn’t require that much thought, quite honestly, to go online, and certainly not rational thought.

And finding to turn thoughts into more constructive ones does not ncessarily take much either. Depends on the persons. In the group, we used to kid that the smarter they were, the longer it took of exchanges and answering their already-made answers, oddly enough:).  click. boom. and there are those who have

killed themselves right afterwards.

Aftrewards? Surely you do not just mean that loging on the net will have someoen suicide. Sure, some do suicide after they logged on. The obviously then did not find the help they needed, and there I agree. Again, it is not like I never worked with poeple sufferingf from depression, having spent yearsof my life doing that exactly. It also is nt like some never suicided. Two did. Online, that is, when I was without a computer for 11 months. Miss them dearly and think of them often. Both had emailed me, and I coudl not answer thm as I wished I coudl have, since I had one hour a month of access through our local library only… The numbe of emails I had in a month made i so that of course I coudl not answer as I woudl normally have through a mont in oen hour a month. And both did suicide. So it is not as if I was not aware of those things. Anyway. As I said, I do not want to get ito the help thing again, not at this time, wiht all it entails. My own helath and concentration doe snot quite lend itself to it. But I can try and find a link to send you, if that friend agrees to it, that leads to chapters of one of the books we used to start exchnages on thoughts and on staying aware of them and keeping them construtive or positive in that meaning, i.e. constructive, not idiotically rose water thoughts:) I had almost entirely trasnalted one of the books, a draft mind you, when I finally coudl contact Maurice, its author and elarn that eh ahd in the meantime exactly ahd them transalted in English:). But he gave me permission to use the books online if it was to help. I.e. Maurice never wanted a penny for any of it, and when I worked in his groups, I did it free of charge too of course. A friend seign me post a few chapters here a while back emailed me to ask if he coudl have me send them to him. I sent the oens I had, about 18 or 20 of the transalted ones, to him, He then put them on a link to his website I think it is. So while it is copyrighted material and my draft transaltion of it, and while I do have the author’s permission to use those chapters and books, I;d still need the penfrind’s [ermission to send you the link, as it coudl be revaling of his id and well,I dunno what else he mioght have on his website, where that is private to him. Yu of course woudl not "have to" read then, but it coudl give you a better idea of what I mean. Maurice is just so down to earth, just makes me laugh so "too true" he is, sort of thing. I.e. the way he says things just makes you laugh for how ever so blatant it is and how yet we never seem to think of things that way. Thsi way, you coudl sort of apply it or not if you are intersted r not, where again, I am sort of stayign away formt he ehlp thing for a while, needing to spend time on me for ne thing, and wantng to have a break from it too. Again, call it a sort of sabbatical, if you will:). I need other things in life too:), of course:), f I do not elt that way of thinking out of my awareness:). Sure, it escapes me 40 tims a day. But what matetrs is gettign abck on it 41, then:) BTW, it can apply to way more than depression,too. The group was not opened to depressed ones only, if psys refered patients to it, after a few years of thinking us the devil:):), where they ahd to see that oops, iot worked to help depressed people too:) It was exactly a group that required nothign to participate save …wantign to be happy. That made it so that just about anyone coudl join and gain from it whatever they wanted to, if we asked that narcoimans and alcoholics rather woudl attend the … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes:

In article <cm2m3d$dp…@freenet9.carleton.ca, bc461 @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… "Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes: In article <cm0r1o$f4…@freenet9.carleton.ca, bc461 @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… "sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. I second every single word she’s said. And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing all the time. Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and choices. I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, as he saw it. A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that reality ours or not. Concrete example: Two poele wake up in a same town. It is raining. One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the example. In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the other:). The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. F…weather…:(". The other wakes up: ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try and go out more to meet poeple!:)". Same event. rain then sunshine. Same reality. And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. Both were real weekends to each of them. Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! They will think that that is easy for you to say. Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:) sorry this is where you lost me. depression is a serious disorder and not a matter of positive thinking as you seem to be saying. I really doubt that I really would have " lost you". Perhaps your thoughts added somethign to this that lost you: where did I say it was not a serious condition…?;-) I just said that it is being depressed that is very hard. Not being happy!:) But that to a depressed person, it seems like it is being happy that is hard. And you answer to that "depression is very serious"…? That it exactly IS. There is a kind of depression that is chemical and so so so deep that a person can not even follow thoughts or rerad or even think, when it gets that bad. BUT those cases are NOT the majority and by far. try not to patronize me. you know nothing about me or my background to make such assumptions about me.

? I lack seing where assumptions were made. Cause I expressed doubts? Expressing doubts is not assuming, just expressing doubts, which means that one is not sure. Not being sure is not assuming. And when that is followed by question marks, it does not assume, it asks. Perhaps you assumed otherwise…? —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -poet (p…@asarian-host.net) writes:

X-No-Archive: yes In article cm2tff$lb…@freenet9.carleton.ca, Eleonore Beaudoin at bc…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA wrote on 10/31/04 8:39: And those cases are not on the Internet, because to be here, one has to be able to think and to act. yes, they are. i was one of them, and there are many others on the depression support groups. What an interestign snippage job, poet… had you left that aprt where I said precisely that if one can still get on the net, then they still can think, still can follow thoughts and still can with good will follow thought to help them imrpove their state of mind, and the words that said that thsoe who;s depression is so deep that theyc an not even think anymore *can then not be on the net*, this woudl ahve read so other than you sort of present it here in this snippage;-) Filtering…?;-) no, tired.

Happens:)

i didn’t agree that being able to go online is any indication of anything.

That’s okay, cause I have not seen anyone affirm that going onlien ws indicative of "anything". I twice rplied to this pos ad lost the reply, and have a limited onluine time each day, bleh. So I will lave it to hat where with good will, you can reread my words and see what they said when you are less tired. In any case, I do not wish to debate and argue at all: I just wanna be happy:), and sterile objectiosn of things that never were said just seems a waste of energy to me right now. I can post a link osoemthign that coudl help you see and read when youa re not tired, on the subject. Chapters I transalted, a draft translation mind you since I later learned that the books ahd been translated already. All your objectiosn and misreads will be seen in those chapters, anyway:) They pretty much always are on the a few same modes, reactions. The chapters can help one to see for themself if they wanna, and if they don’t wanna, they of course will go on objecting as if they had read a different book;-). The author starts the book sharing exactly on hs own objectiosn to such a thing way way back before he even gave it a try. For your info, he did suffer from depression, and is a psy on top of a crimiminal court judge. He gave me persmission to use the chapters and share thm so long as they are used to help, i.e. not for financial purposes, which I never woudl use it for anyway. A poster asked for them a while back, and gahered them all on a site of his. I;d have to ask him pemission, if the material is my draft translation and Maurice’s copyrighted work, to give you the url as the link might also lead to othe stuff on his site, I dunno. But I think you will find how it addresses all those objective mode of reactions intewresting and down to earth, simple, etc. I know, I know. Poeple like to think that since depression is complicated, it has to require a complicated solution. To a depressed one, all is complicated, anyway:). But it can be easy when oen can use their thinkingh abilities to try and think constructively or positivly a while, and see what happens. Soem chapters might not cvoncern you or anything you would relate to. But I trust that you woudl still inn rading them get the sense of it all and take what helps from there. When I can I will ask this penfriend about the url and if on can be made where I coudl refer poeple to it without it being revaling about his id and other stuff on his website.

even the most depressed person can think, albeit not always rationally, and it doesn’t require that much thought, quite honestly, to go online, and certainly not rational thought. click. boom. and there are those who have killed themselves right afterwards. which actually does requires thought, so what does being able to think really mean? not much. we’re primates. we do it in spite of ourselves. when i was most depressed, my constant wish was to be able to stop thinking. anyone can get online. that was my point.

Glad you made that point, But what was it about?;-) I mena, there is distortion in how it is again interpreted and presented here. Buty yuou knwo that, you spend a lot of energy on that objection mode. Energy that coudl ber used constructively and honestly raher han twistingly;-).  

and, there are those who don’t find much solace among others online. some even find danger.

Again, so I know. I said that some could follow how to reshape their thoughts into a constuctiove way idf they can follow thoughts, i.e. are not sugfferign from a depression so deep that thoughts can not be followed. And for your info, it is not quite truue, that all depressed poeple can follow thoughts. There is a level or form of depression that is ever so deep that it is scary to even see. As in mind balsting, in not resembling what most poeple imagien depression to be. That form is with the deporessed one iunable to be in touch even with thor oen thougfhts, not even able to thinki of what to do when they have the urge to pee. They coudl nto even think of getting up anhd walking to the washroom to pee. Then thinking they coudl get better by working on thoughts they can not even have conatc with anymore woudol be silly. Most depressed poeple, and even most undepressed ones react t the constructive form of thinking already, havign all that programmation in them that shoots the already made answers to every step of the way. Imagien hwo impossible then it woudl be for one that can not even follow their own thoughts nor those of another, completely out f reach then, when those that are not completely so already object with all the depressiohn’s programmed thoughts, installed patterns…? It just woudl make no sense at all. There is only oen thing one neds besides being able to think, in that prgram I talked about. WANTING to be happy. If one does not wanna, no one can make them, of course:) If one wants to bject more than to be happyt, they sur4e can go on beign depressed. No one is forced out of depression ever that I know of;-)  

btw, i can’t say therapy helped much. it wouldn’t when there’s 45 minutes of silence. i suspect time and distance were more of a factor.

Yeah…In the rgoup we had , psys woudl at forst see us a the devil:) As a dfanger. Their own fears and objective thinking beign at workl L:) But after 8 and 25 yeas, they since long ahd realized that it orked, was hekpful, and sent us patients themself, recommending the group to them. Soem wanted to drop their psy afer they joined the group. We alwats rcommendd they keptseign a psy if they were seing one. Soem changed psys, some dropped them, etc, etc. We heard many mnay stories f psys just sitting there doing nothing. I remember a person that tolod me that she felt she gt so much more out of one meeting of shooting objectiosn and working on that, wher4e at her psychiatrist, all she had was an hour, where it took her yewars to talk about heavy stuff that troubled her and where once she did open up, she ewas only told The hour is over. See you next week", where she felt she was sent hme with her guts on the pavement… Makes oen wodner. I donlt wanna diminish the mportance of psys at all, but like for mechanics or an other professions, soem are good, some are not. Gets tough too if a patient is above the average intelligence and the psy is not;-), if you see what I mean. Hard to take advice from soemoen that doe not impress us as too bright;-), heheeh:) But the thing with the method was that people are not told what to think or do. They are just made to rflect and think for themself about what they invest their thoughts into, and decide for themself where they want to invest them how when and all that. It is not a brain washing done by outsiders, but one a person in fact choses to do themself. A good brain wash can rid of dust and mites too;-) But is better when done with help, sure, but as one intends to, left free in latitude and choice and all that. In shrt, rebuilding the state of mind or attotude towards life and events, at ones’ own preference, according to whtever belief they have or not, and in lign with what they want, not with what soemen else wants. Anyay. Will see if I can post that link or send it to you, and you can go read it if you want. C  

 >  

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Response:

In article <cm2m3d$dp…@freenet9.carleton.ca

, bc461

@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes: > > In article <cm0r1o$f4…@freenet9.carleton.ca

, bc461

> > @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… > >> "sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: > >> > Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we > >> > meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. > >> > I second every single word she’s said. > >> > And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing > >> > all the time. > >> Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break > >> patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to > >> stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for > >> the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and > >> choices. > >> I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. > >> It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs > >> spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he > >> defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, > >> as he saw it. > >> A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" > >> and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". > >> Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I > >> have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my > >> thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our > >> reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I > >> mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. > >> But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that > >> reality ours or not. > >> Concrete example: > >> Two poele wake up in a same town. > >> It is raining. > >> One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my > >> plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it > >> off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". > >> Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. > >> "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more > >> energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". > >> I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the > >> example. > >> In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. > >> The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or > >> soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is > >> the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the > >> other:). > >> The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. > >> -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all > >> in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. > >> F…weather…:(". > >> The other wakes up: > >> ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to > >> recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is > >> bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try > >> and go out more to meet poeple!:)". > >> Same event. rain then sunshine. > >> Same reality. > >> And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. > >> One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. > >> Both were real weekends to each of them. > >> Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) > >> It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) > >> We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a > >> depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. > >> Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! > >> They will think that that is easy for you to say. > >> Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:) > > sorry this is where you lost me. depression is a serious disorder and > > not a matter of positive thinking as you seem to be saying. > I really doubt that I really would have " lost you". > Perhaps your thoughts added somethign to this that lost you: where did I > say it was not a serious condition…?;-) > I just said that it is being depressed that is very hard. Not being happy!:) > But that to a depressed person, it seems like it is being happy that is hard. > And you answer to that "depression is very serious"…? > That it exactly IS. > There is a kind of depression that is chemical and so so so deep that a > person can not even follow thoughts or rerad or even think, when it gets > that bad. > BUT those cases are NOT the majority and by far.

try not to patronize me. you know nothing about me or my background to make such assumptions about me.

Response:

I’ve had a lot of issues with women through the years, but this is a new one. What do I do while the woman I love is out turning a trick for drugs? Nick T.

Response:

"Nick" <ntemp…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

news:a336o092gfj6b38dj1hof8dd4gsi15qeps@4ax.com…

I’ve had a lot of issues with women through the years, but this is a new one. What do I do while the woman I love is out turning a trick for drugs? Nick T.

i use to watch baseball , and i was counting on the hockey but , that’s out , so now i crack a beer put on some tunes , and makes sure i don’t lock the door , so she can get in when she comes back

Response:

Close to what I’m doing, except it was a walk, vodka, and I gave her a bracelet that she has the key attached to. An she has my cell phone, just in case. I’ve felt like crying, but I’m not sure I have any tears any more. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:56:01 -0700, "%" <surfs@uniserve

wrote: "Nick" <ntemp…@bellsouth.net wrote in message news:a336o092gfj6b38dj1hof8dd4gsi15qeps@4ax.com… I’ve had a lot of issues with women through the years, but this is a new one. What do I do while the woman I love is out turning a trick for drugs? Nick T. i use to watch baseball , and i was counting on the hockey but , that’s out , so now i crack a beer put on some tunes , and makes sure i don’t lock the door , so she can get in when she comes back

Response:

Hi, Poet. Good to see you, too. She was just tested for AIDS and everything else.  She was raped by a couple of dudes 6 weeks ago. She’s an erotic dance, who tonight is putting on a "private show" for a 72-year*old retired Marine, who was her next door neighbor when she was a kid. He’s sick mother fucker: he has a Playboy cover showing a woman who locks like her. For the private show she gets some of his VA dispensed pain meds. Is the relationship healthy? I don’t know. Of course, I’m her co-dependent. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 04:11:25 GMT, poet <p…@asarian-host.net

wrote: X-No-Archive: yes In article a336o092gfj6b38dj1hof8dd4gsi15q…@4ax.com, Nick at ntemp…@bellsouth.net wrote on 10/29/04 22:39: I’ve had a lot of issues with women through the years, but this is a new one. What do I do while the woman I love is out turning a trick for drugs? get tested for HIV and other goodies. question if this is a healthy relationship. good to see you around.

Response:

well if its all that bad … leave , and if you don’t , you support it "Nick" <ntemp…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

news:t656o0lko0lpj0kf6jlsh2n85f4ml0747v@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Close to what I’m doing, except it was a walk, vodka, and I gave her a > bracelet that she has the key attached to. An she has my cell phone, > just in case. > I’ve felt like crying, but I’m not sure I have any tears any more. > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 20:56:01 -0700, "%" <surfs@uniserve> wrote: > >"Nick" <ntemp…@bellsouth.net

wrote in message

> >news:a336o092gfj6b38dj1hof8dd4gsi15qeps@4ax.com… > >> I’ve had a lot of issues with women through the years, but this is a > >> new one. What do I do while the woman I love is out turning a trick > >> for drugs? > >> Nick T. > >i use to watch baseball , > >and i was counting on the hockey but , that’s out , > >so now i crack a beer put on some tunes , > >and makes sure i don’t lock the door , > >so she can get in when she comes back

Response:

As Per Cent said – let loose, in case things get too destructive. You’ll know the point. Take care Sumi

Response:

Nick (ntemp…@bellsouth.net) writes:

Hi, Poet. Good to see you, too. She was just tested for AIDS and everything else.  She was raped by a couple of dudes 6 weeks ago. She’s an erotic dance, who tonight is putting on a "private show" for a 72-year*old retired Marine, who was her next door neighbor when she was a kid. He’s sick mother fucker: he has a Playboy cover showing a woman who locks like her. For the private show she gets some of his VA dispensed pain meds. Is the relationship healthy? I don’t know. Of course, I’m her co-dependent.

Hi ya, Nick! Long time no see in asl:) Now I know why…;-) Hm. Dave and Poet and Sumi was it, all answered you with the simple facts. Destructive. Get outta there!!! But I also know that since I "met" you online years ago, it seemed that the only relationships you had were that type. Her always havign some dope or booze or both addictions, and also being in the extremely promiscuous lifestyle, as in "hooking" in oen form or another. So as you say yourself, you of course are co-dependant,. which means dependant as much as her, and actually dpending on her being that way (sic). Dependant to another sort of dope, a dependancy by proxy, where the more dependant of the two might not be who it then seems. Thing is, good hearted Nick sees it as his grand disposition to care and help others in desperate need of help. Or so Nick priojects it to be, rationalizes it to be. But behind it all, well… Nick thinks he can help dependants to learn to act like responsible ones vs dependant ones counting on others to see that tyhier own needs are met. And Nick supports the dependnacy towards him by lending them his cell phone and his money and even giving them a ride back home or -woudl not really surprise me- a ride at the old ex neighbor;s place if they play on his fear that some toher maniac coudl ater all offer them a ride there, makign it double ""risky"". Since I have known you, it seemed to me that while some have to look real hard to spt the danger signals of dependant relationships, in your case, oen woudl have to work real ard to NOT see them. I mean let;s face it, Nick. Whiel you end up with sexually messed up women (i.e. using sex as a lever to get their dope and see all their other needs met by others, being dependant and thus by definition irresponsible and prefering to let others do the work while they have their thrills), while you end up with sexually messed up women that have a very confused line of prvacy and intimacy and so on, you have all the signs of it right in your face when you run into them. From what I know of you, you seek women that are on the round figure side, full figure. But only if they wear elsatic tight mini clothes that molds the merchandise, and exposes all it can without spending their day at the station. I guess cops donlt pay well enough or soemthing;-):). But anyway. You will try to approach women that give all these signs of "prmomuscuity" (soudn slike such an old fashion word…Sluts woudl be the word nowadays I guess, but it has this moral connotation to it…so let’s say promiscuous) so blatantly visible that it is not liek you coudl not see it coming. You certainly have that type figured out since long, since that IS what you will go for and want to approach each time. Then howcome you would expect it to be different the nxt time? Howcome you are always acting as if you did not see it come? I guess that a part of Nick plays the role of the savior, this hero syndrome: Nick will save them! Nick will show them hwo a man shoudl treat them and what a difference it makes! Nick will show them hwo responsible men act with a woman, treating her with respect and all that. Only, responsibel men do not do *that*. I.e. they do not pick and seek sexually messed up women, unles they seek a hooker for a good time. They do NOT seek them for long term relationships or for relatinships at all. Responsible men are those who make their choices be constructive to their life, not destructive. So then responsible men woudl not seek that type of women flashign all the signs of beign messed up and destructive, and woudl not even think of playing hero/savior with them. One one hand, Nick wants to show them how a responsiuble man woudl act with them. On the othr, Nick shows them hwo he himsewlf does not act resonsibly at all, for picking them ion the forst place, but for giving them the ride and phone to achieve their thrills on his back. There are soooo many persosn that REALLY could use help and use it constructively, make good out of it in hsi world….WHAT makes Nick chose the very ones that will only use him for their own fdestruction and his with it??? Why do you seek the ones that literally flash their problem around? Their promiscuity around? Is there soemthign in Nick that seeks desperate women cause he thinks that unless they;d be desperate, no woman would give him a second look? Is there low self esteem to that point? OR/(and is it accompanied by) poor libido maybe? Is it that Nick’s body does not react sexually to women not showing promiscuous? That last thing coudl and woudl bring low self esteem too in the long run…But in any case….Why **seek** these women then expect they are not thatta way???? Is this liek a need to be adultated as in "She will see I am such a great good man that she will give up booze, dope and all her johns for me!"…? Whatever the cause… It is not as complicated as if the signs were really subtle and hard to spot… If it wears red where the bits of tits are not exposed, oddds are, sort of thing…..(complete this sentence:)) Odds are Nick volunteers to show them hwo an irresponsible man acts, picks them up like they coudl be his bride to be, and then wants them to act like they just learned how responsible he is, so responsible that he woudl be different from all the other guys that picked them before, and they woudl turn their ways around in the name of that supposed repsonsible man…. I dontl wanna hit you on the head, and I do take it here that your knowign me sicne all that time allows you to know that already, and to rememebr so right now. Thing is, Nick….Just liek you can not help them become non-dependant, cause dependants are those who need others to do it for them, where yet doing it for them is reinforcing dependancy, no one can help Nick save NICK. No oen can tell you waht to do now, or we can till we turn red in the face, that woudl still be sayign it in your palce, and feeding YOUR dpendancy. We also can not show you how to stop your depndancy by doing it for you, since to be non dpendant, oen has to take responsibility for themself and their OWN choices, THEMSELF. So just this, Nick: what have you done sicne the last one, or even sicne the ex wife, to try and see yourself go and to try and deal with your dependancy? If youc an not deal with yours, how on earth do you think you can help another do it???? Actiosn speak louder than words….nd no matter what you say to them, well, you act your dependancy out, and they will just know so the secodn you play the savior with them, and talk to them….They got one onm the hook then. So if you wanna go on payign them a rent, a cell phone, and why not, the coach to their pusher in soem other town, sure, go ahead… If you dontl want that anymore, well, make sure your choices are taken responsibly according tot he outcome you want, from the pickign them on moment on! Dependants are dependant in eprsonality wayyyyy before they get into booze or drugs or pill popping… Which means that their choices in other aspects of their life makes them have the entire profile that leads to the *substance* dependancy. Which also means that in the cleaning up their mess, they gotta look not only at the choices directly linked with their dependancy (in her case: drig adiction and how she started usign drigs is not enough, for nstance. In yours, looking at hwo you pick them is only the tip of the iceberg and ONE choice set after a mo8ntian of irrespinsible choices already make you be set up for it). You then coudl at least start to look at your choices in everyday life and in other spheres, so that in time, the big oen that is supported by al your other life choices has less and less to sustain it and keep it in place. Or of course you can go on as you did sicne the ex wife… Collecting them by their mddle name: Promiscuous Addict. But whatever you chose, ONLY YOU caqn decide so, and do it. No oen can help you, sicne youa re a dependant. Helping you, like your helping her, woudl just be feeding your own dependnacy and havign others do it in your place. I hope you make responsibel choices sometime soon. But that si all I and anyoen else can do for you. HOPE. The rest is all your responsibility and your choice to exercise. And yep. I hope you exercise it responsibly, *constructively*. Find soemoen that does not need help at this moment. That does NOT need save. And instead, be there when that oen ahs the downs that we all have in life, so that you have the ups to share too!!! What are you punishign yourself about..?;-) Take care, and take responsible choices. YOURS, Not anyoen else’s choices taken for you! It’s the only way to really deal and tackle with it. Good luck, but most of all, may you have good determination and exercise good judgement. (((((Nick))))) Chloe  

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 04:11:25 GMT, poet <p…@asarian-host.net wrote: X-No-Archive: yes In article a336o092gfj6b38dj1hof8dd4gsi15q…@4ax.com, Nick at ntemp…@bellsouth.net wrote on 10/29/04 22:39: I’ve had a lot of issues with women through the years, but this is a new one. What do I do while the woman I love is out turning a trick for drugs? get tested for HIV and other goodies. question if this is a healthy relationship. good to see you around.

—

Response:

In article <t266o0ltkv81uv3v8q1npdm75ndgnak…@4ax.com

, ntemp214

@bellsouth.net says…

Hi, Poet. Good to see you, too. She was just tested for AIDS and everything else.  She was raped by a couple of dudes 6 weeks ago. She’s an erotic dance, who tonight is putting on a "private show" for a 72-year*old retired Marine, who was her next door neighbor when she was a kid. He’s sick mother fucker: he has a Playboy cover showing a woman who locks like her. For the private show she gets some of his VA dispensed pain meds. Is the relationship healthy? I don’t know. Of course, I’m her co-dependent.

do you think you are going to save her or something?

Response:

Ahm. As if I knew how to let loose

Response:

Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. I second every single word she’s said. And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing all the time. So Nick, wish you the best and most of all: Take care of YOURSELF. Sumi

Response:

poet (p…@asarian-host.net) writes:

X-No-Archive: yes chloe, you’re perceptive.

Wish I "was" or "had been". It mainly is experience based. A bit liek you describe below about your own discoveries or learnign in that regard.  

there’s a book about this very thing – women who love too much by robin norwood. not just about women, although she claims women are more susceptible to the behaviour. a little of it applied to me at one time, i think, although not so drastically. i had a little too much mother hen in me, which is now evolved to dispassionate counselor. at least in most cases.

Yes. In fcat in the past, I seem to remember mentioning this book to Nick. There was a book precursor of that one witten by I can not rmember who, entitled "Smart women, foolish choices". There also has been a sequel to Norwood’s Women who love too much, where she published many letters of men at the end of that second one, lettign the letters speak for themself. They are letters of men who got to understand why (some type of) women would only seem to discard them for being good guys, and seek bad guys. I remember the years when I read Norwood’s book…I think I got to almost the end of the book before I even thought there was anythign for me in it. I was reading it thinking "Yeah, but that one is a two watt". Then "Yeah, well, that one is a dope addict". Yeah well, that one (this or that which I did not have in my life at all: I never was a dope user, never cared for that, nor a booze drinker; I had a uni education where some were uneducated, etc, etc). Thank God there was enough pages in the book for me to click at ne point. I remember taking the book and slamming down saying out loud in a mix of confusion and anger and pain "WHY, why why wy did no one ever tell me these things???????:(". I had had three boyfriends, and all three ended up being either 1. Bi. 2. Schizophrenic. 3. Alcoholic. And some strange how, I ahd already sort of figured that if I told myself it was THEM and only them that made ti all go wrong, then I ahd no way to hang in there and believe that the next time woudl not be subjected to "their" wrongs. I needed to find soem way to keep on believing in ehalthy relationships, and somehow, for me, that ahd to be with my beign able to do soemthign about it, and not be at life’s randomness and mercy. That meant I later learnt that I refused the victim role. I started in my ehad making the dioffernce between "guilty" and responsible, one I would say that poeple still do not tend to see for its meaning. I sure was not guilty of their problem. No, I did not make the first become bi, the second become schizo, nor the third become an alcoholic. I was not guiklty of making them nothing at all, since they were responsible for their choices, *and me for mine*. My being the only oen to face when I made wrogn choices made it so that that I exercised my choices responsibly or not, I still ended up being the *responsible* person for my self, if not at all guilty nor responsible for the other’s choices either. One that refuses to make respionsible choices still chose to refuse so., and still is responsible, that he acts responsibly or not. And so, that I did not know of any of those things before still left me responsible for what choices I made and would make from there, if not guilty any more than they had been. I like how you describe your own "progression" in that sphere. Very well put. And it also shows an awareness that is I think absolutely necessary for any progress to actually unfold… I worked at it ever so much….that I ended up coaching about the choices we make and how we are responsible for them, that we act responsibly or not. I learned that in fact, only 4 % of the population gets to become "aware" in that way, and that the entire 4% is made of those that belonged to the 96% before. I.e. no one is born knwoing how to deal with it, then. I also learned that it is alone in that 4 %, but ay less lonely than in the 96%. There, yes, I fully agree with you about it being quite worth the "wait" to be alone, vs being in messy disfunctional relationships. Of course, in the coahing, I had to also learn to not wanna "save" them. I was lucky enough to have a program to follow, based on the ten steps of the AA, that yt was made in a way where it exactly applied to everythign and everyone, and was not focussing on alcohol or addictions per se, since I had none of that myself: that however also allowed me to keep myself incheck, by checking which of the steps I might be messing up or skipping, which in turn woudl help me keep the "wanting to help" in check. Big talking though: Man,was I giving and givign and giving. When I joined asl, my life was about heling, still, and giving still. Noe that it was not at all done in a way to get anything, and was out of loving and no longer havign shads of "wantign to be loved" -which comes back to waht control is about: one that depends on another;s love will need to control that other adn to try and control their love. Tht I hd learned gfine to stay away from. But I still ahd to learn about the mommy-ing, and oddly enough foudn it in helping someoen else out. Some man that was complaining about his gfriends always ending up acting liek aunt May that gave hima  sweater for Xmas and woudl then pat his him on the ehad for wearing it…. My seing in his way of picking these women some signs of mommying himalready, and in him some seeking this mommyig in them he later woudl end up resenting, made me see how one coudl not be in a relationship with mommy or daddy figures. No one sane wants to be with mommy or daddy for a partner:). Doh!!!! I joined asl hoping to find a more balanced exchange, friendship. Or maybe loveship if ever, but if I was not closed to it, I was not "after it" either havign already learned some bit in the years before. My beign as I was at the time made it so that I yet ended up helping still. I then thought that well, that woudl be perhaps the way: keeping the leping to online stuff, and keeping the rest of my life aspects without that helping thing. Finding a palce to help, and a place to live without it beign help relatings. That did not work too well. If it most certainly I woudl dare say myself brought help, it gave way to no real friendship. Only to poeple wanting their needs met, and me seen as beign there to help them do just that. Very nice, but….. The last year or so saw me rather try and step back and let the train apss by. I.. look at the train as it passed. Outside lookign in more, lettign others that gave me the impression of wanting to help, if out of a control-dependancy thing on their side, exactly do so. If they thought there was competition in that aspect, they ahd it wrong. Take it pelase take it, was rather how I felt. Someone please help them, so I can move on!!LOLAM:). It was a confusd way to go about it, but hey, like a baby learning to walk, I do allow myself to fall on my derriere or on my face, if I walk too much on my toes or on my heels at first. I found funny how the oens that woudl happen to join woudl for soem tend to attack me and say that poeple did not need what I offered, in that tiem period where I did all i coudl to learn to nto offer all the time, for a change. THEY, they woudl say, woudl see a NEED for help, and THEY wante to brign that in asl. Well, fin, by all means for mercy;s sake, just do it!!!:), would be how I felt. "I am wanting to move on, but sure by all means, let them mommy whoever". By now, I find myself sort of hoping to simply find poeple that show no signs ofdep-ndancy-control to chose to reply to. Only, there ainlt that many around. 4 %….eh. And I find myself as if back to square one in hoping to meet more 4 % people…rememberign that eyah, that was part of what I was hoping to meeet by posting in some ng, to start with. It ended up with helping.. mind you, managing to do so without dependancy contriol in it, and in a place that was about support, where that left me having a plce to offer help, rather than making my entire life only that. But with the number of poeple that wanted help on asl in those days, my days and nights in fact were taken by just that! Nice learnign experience, nice to knwo I yet managed to not do it out of any need to get anything at all, did it out of loving and not out of wantign t be loved. Allo fine, but what then? Know what I mean?:) So I am at that stage of partly watchign th train go by, waiting to see some 4 % s come along, to finally be able to pick friends and rlatings better. To lave aside ths I spot as dependant-controllign and thus disfucntional. And part just entertaining myself at times, too, since again, 4% is not much compared to 96%, and since it would be lonely for me without entertainment:). I feel as if something is finding its answers since a year or so, and yet as if I am not yet fuilly aware of what the new question is:). Semtiems I think of a past newcomer that said I should get lost in other words, i.e. that maybe it was time for me to find another ng. Course,she was dependant controlling, heheeh:), and wanted to be loved, and foudn that ahrd with loving me around:):). But I thought that well, movign on ot ther ng was what she did and waht many dd then, when thyey had buckled the loop and gone through a cycle. Only, to me, it seems hat movign on to another ng is more for those who want to try and play their tricks of control adn depndancy where it might have a fresh cahnce to work;-). A sort of taking their pattern elsewhere, where instead, I am trying to find to exactly avoid patterns carried on to different places and the illusion of progress through that. I am quite happy to be alone rather than in a messy relationship, for sure, if of courtse, it woudl be neat to happen to meet someoen compatible and that was not needing constant reassurance and to constantly have his needs met "or else", sort of thing. Might happen and … read more »

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audrey in velvet (lindauermadn…@somewhere.com) writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On 30/10/04 4:30 pm, in article 5384c5d50d13889.ac9c60d099ff6f5…@asarian-host.net, "poet" <p…@asarian-host.net wrote: X-No-Archive: yes In article MPG.1bed8959131045f498a…@news.alt.net, Hot Pnats at myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com wrote on 10/30/04 11:20: do you think you are going to save her or something? i learned from a (thankfully) brief experience that people have to save themselves and, to do that, they have to want to. and that what makes me happy is more important than trying to force a square that doesn’t want to lose its edges into a circle. im in complete agreement

Yup. Making another happy can not be done. Even less so at the cost of one’s own happiness, where then the one "teaching happiness" at the cost of their own is like a preacher giving a "bad" example:) Compassion, and *not sacrifice*. That is the difference.

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"audrey in velvet" <lindauermadn…@somewhere.com

wrote in message

news:1099187508.xRxCwZM89ikL0tlW9EE4og@teranews… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On 30/10/04 4:30 pm, in article 5384c5d50d13889.ac9c60d099ff6f5…@asarian-host.net, "poet" <p…@asarian-host.net wrote: X-No-Archive: yes In article MPG.1bed8959131045f498a…@news.alt.net, Hot Pnats at myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com wrote on 10/30/04 11:20: do you think you are going to save her or something? i learned from a (thankfully) brief experience that people have to save themselves and, to do that, they have to want to. and that what makes me happy is more important than trying to force a square that doesn’t want

to

lose its edges into a circle. im in complete agreement — For more information about this posting service, contact: h…@asarian-host.net — for all info about our server. If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

oh well then , it musy be true

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On 30/10/04 4:30 pm, in article 5384c5d50d13889.ac9c60d099ff6f5…@asarian-host.net, "poet" <p…@asarian-host.net

wrote: X-No-Archive: yes In article MPG.1bed8959131045f498a…@news.alt.net, Hot Pnats at myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com wrote on 10/30/04 11:20: do you think you are going to save her or something? i learned from a (thankfully) brief experience that people have to save themselves and, to do that, they have to want to. and that what makes me happy is more important than trying to force a square that doesn’t want to lose its edges into a circle.

im in complete agreement – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Hot Pnats" (myblowupprejecte…@blowuppp.com) writes:

In article <cm0r1o$f4…@freenet9.carleton.ca, bc461 @FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… "sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. I second every single word she’s said. And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing all the time. Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and choices. I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, as he saw it. A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that reality ours or not. Concrete example: Two poele wake up in a same town. It is raining. One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the example. In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the other:). The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. F…weather…:(". The other wakes up: ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try and go out more to meet poeple!:)". Same event. rain then sunshine. Same reality. And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. Both were real weekends to each of them. Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! They will think that that is easy for you to say. Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:) sorry this is where you lost me. depression is a serious disorder and not a matter of positive thinking as you seem to be saying.

I really doubt that I really would have " lost you". Perhaps your thoughts added somethign to this that lost you: where did I say it was not a serious condition…?;-) I just said that it is being depressed that is very hard. Not being happy!:) But that to a depressed person, it seems like it is being happy that is hard. And you answer to that "depression is very serious"…? That it exactly IS. There is a kind of depression that is chemical and so so so deep that a person can not even follow thoughts or rerad or even think, when it gets that bad. BUT those cases are NOT the majority and by far. And those cases are not on the Internet, because to be here, one has to be able to think and to act. A depressed person that can think of logging on, of opening a post anmd of reading it, more, of starting argumentations and debates, is not a depressed person *up to the point where their thinking could no longer make a difference nor bring improvement if they turn their thinking to *constructive* thinking. It is what positive thinking should be, vs what many call positive thinking that yet is phony and rosewater. To try and say that there is no one dying of hunger on earth, for instance, is not positive thinking, it is sheer denial. Psys will tell you that depression most often follows an event or a period of life where hardships or traumatic experiences were lived: eg death of a loved one or relative; loss of job; loss or absence of human contact due to whatever reason; burn outs, etc, etc, etc. In fact it can even follow a period of inactivity induced by those reasons or any other cause at all. But if everyone for instance morns the loss of a loved one, and if they sure can look or be diagnosed as depressed during the mourning, not everyone stays depressed after the period of mourning. The same, not everyone stays depressed or even becomes so after the loss of a job. Soem will have a transitional period of time that is in fcat healthy and normal: to rejoyce at the loss of income and at the prospect of possibly losing one’s house and so on would not be balanced, after all. What happens according to any psy, is that as one lives those events that bring a sort of transitonal time of "depressive mood", the person’s thoughts differ. The thoughts oen has at losing a job are not the same that oen has as they spend an extra pay in a month, say. that I am sure you also can follow. But as one goes through these hard times, and as their thoughts are altered to become down thoughts, soemtimes, one can not get the thoughts back on to a "higher, livelier" level, even if they find a job, say, or win the lottery, or live an event that woudl bring happier, lighter, constructive, hope filled thoughts to others. Depression then has installed itself, and will filter all one lives and reinterpret it as per the thoughts in place, that created a sort of status quo that the depressive person can no longer seem to manage to live in the way the non depressed one would. I have not said anywhere that thsi was not ""serious"" as in requiring help, and at times medication too. I have not said anywhere to stop meds, have I:). I did not say it was soemthign to act irresponsibly about, and to stay in and let get worse. What I said was that tuirning thoughts aroudn takes some doing, some determination, and some undrstanding of why it is important, and some good will to try and change the status quo, the *filter* that will no longer see the constructive side of things, the positive and create-ive side of events and thoughts. A person suffering from depression might and usually do see themself suddenly not feeling like goign to whatever event they yet are known to hve loved going to before they were depressed. Under their previous state, before the depression, say, they loved for instance goign to car races. They would look forward to those events and would get thrilled as the time of a big race approached. But once depressed, to them, it is a boring chore, heavy, not worth the trouble, and makes them just shurg it off when you mention a coming big race. A new status quo has installed itself, a new mood and way of seing things through depression that exactly filters things as "no use. Boring. Not interesting. Heavy. No nothing coming out of it. Big race, so what???". Their state of mind is altered, is not how it was when they were not depressed. That is not too hard to grasp even for those aroudn them, is it? They themself can grasp that quite acutely. It is painfully hard. Under depression, the constructive thoughts no longer happen of their own. There was a long period of time, due to some event or another or even due to a lack of events soemtimes, that made it so that the depressed person’s thoughts were not constructively challenged, kept going. And that made it so that the new thinking patterns that installed were not sonctrustive anymore, and that any new event is no longer seen in a constructive way nor for  its costructive side or beneficial side. Everythign becomes very heavy and very hard, as I said. The part you could not follow, you said;-), and that in fact I am sure you could follow, if you were not shooting already made answers to the subject you can follow so well as to spit the already made answers before any mention ever of it not being "serious";-). See, that is how a depression "state" is and installs itself. The thoughts in place leave no room anymore for new ones. All already is "already-made" for an answer as the brain spits the thoughts we taught it to entertain, unwillingly as we may have done it, under heavy circumstances that lasted long enough for us to have ended up unawaringly or unwillingly programming the brain to these already-made answers, that in turn keep anything that could pull us out of depression at bay. The installed state and thoughts that come with it suddenly serve as if to maintain a status quo, keepign the person locked in that state, looped in. Sure, sometimes it is flatly induced by a sudden change in the rbain chemical balance, and that does … read more »

Response:

In article <cm0r1o$f4…@freenet9.carleton.ca

, bc461

@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes: Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. I second every single word she’s said. And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing all the time. Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and choices. I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, as he saw it. A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that reality ours or not. Concrete example: Two poele wake up in a same town. It is raining. One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the example. In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the other:). The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. F…weather…:(". The other wakes up: ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try and go out more to meet poeple!:)". Same event. rain then sunshine. Same reality. And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. Both were real weekends to each of them. Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! They will think that that is easy for you to say. Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:)

sorry this is where you lost me. depression is a serious disorder and not a matter of positive thinking as you seem to be saying. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

If hard is relative, it does not have to be a relative of mine:) I much prefer taking it easy. The way out is always the EASY way out:), wiht patterns. The way in is the though hard one. Much harder to stay IN a pattern that is desctuctive than to get out of it:). I like my life to be different from my beakfast eggs: easy, but not over LOL:) C  So Nick, wish you the best and most of all: Take care of YOURSELF. Sumi —

Response:

"sumire" (sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk) writes:

Wow. Chloe has told you the exact logic of what we meant in a few words. Trust her judgement. She’s the perfect psychologist. I second every single word she’s said. And I swear I know how hard it is to rid the patterns one has been playing all the time.

Of course, it s a figure of speech, sayign that it is hard to break patterns. Cause what in fact IS hard, when we think of it deeper, is to stay in them patterns and feel doomed and powerlessly ache repeatdely for the same thing all our life,  out of our own lack of constructive action and choices. I found another thread about soemthign other completely so inter4sting lately. It was about someone sayign that he only believed in reality (vs spirituality or soemthign liek that), where he defined reality as "events causing effect". Cause and effect beign reality, as he saw it. A person then just asked a short "and are thoughts reality…?" and I thought "WOW! This is BRILLIANT!!!!!". Cause exactly. Thoughts also are on a mode of cause and effect, where if I have no control over events, I sure can decide what I want to set my thoughts on! THAT is the latitude we have in fact that makes each of our reality(ies) be different. Sure, there is the genetic stuff and all, but I mean..in front of an event, we still can chose to think this or that. But beyond the event constituting a reality, is how we will make that reality ours or not. Concrete example: Two poele wake up in a same town. It is raining. One thinks "Oh lovely. It’s f…. raining on *my* weekend. There go my plans down the drain to go out and meet poeple. Might as well sleep it off, I am f…. doomed. F… weather, bla bla bla". Another wakes up and sees the rain and thinks. "Rain????  OH WELL. I can then sleep the day off and rest good and be more energized for tomorrow!Yum!:)". I amde it on purpose here to make both chose to sleep for th sake of the example. In it, one sleeps well. The other sleeps and wakes up tired, and still grumpy. The thoughts they had made their sleep either be soemthign neat to them or soemthign they are upset about and mad at th rain for. Yeah right, it is the rain;s fault if they ahd a rotten day for one and a good day for the other:). The next day the two wake up and it is sunny. -F… weather. I wish it was raining. I like it better when it rains all in all cause I then don’t *feel* alone. Migth as well sleep it off. F…weather…:(". The other wakes up: ‘Sunny! Yay! Hmmm. Feels nice to have slept so deep. Is rain not great to recuperate? Look out world, here I come. After a day of rain, there is bound to be twice as much poeple outdoors today. Great! I wanted to try and go out more to meet poeple!:)". Same event. rain then sunshine. Same reality. And yet two will live a completely different *reality* that weekend. One had a shitty weekend.The other had a nice one. Both were real weekends to each of them. Who had the hardest weekend of the two…?;-) It is way harder to sit in a same pile of …patterns than to shake ‘em off:) We think that beign happy is so hard today, that ..well, just ask a depressed person. They will tell you" beign happy is hard", will they say. Try and tell them that in fact, it is beign depressed that is hard!!! They will think that that is easy for you to say. Contradicting themself right there, heheeh:) If hard is relative, it does not have to be a relative of mine:) I much prefer taking it easy. The way out is always the EASY way out:), wiht patterns. The way in is the though hard one. Much harder to stay IN a pattern that is desctuctive than to get out of it:). I like my life to be different from my beakfast eggs: easy, but not over LOL:) C  So Nick, wish you the best and most of all: Take care of

YOURSELF. Sumi

—

Response:

Question:

B D..maybe you should listen to your own advice !!!! Later Gypsy

Response:

B D..maybe you should listen to your own advice !!!! Later Gypsy

what advice has he given?

Response:

I can so relate to this one, my second oldest brother has an eating disorder, he weighs well over  400 pounds and is now basically house bound…he refuses treatment also….It makes it so hard to love them i know….right now because i tried an intervention with him..he is angry with me and  has claimed that he will never speak to me ..ever again…little does he realize how hard it is for our family to have to exclude him from  all holiday gatherings…there are no places  for him to sit without the chair breaking from the stress of his weight At my daughters wedding two years ago i ended up paying over 50 dollars for a metal chair he  literally broke…from the prolonged stress of his weight…he was only there for like 4 hours…but in that time period he cracked a picnic bench sat and  then  bent the legs of a reinforced metal chair..we had brought in specifically for him…people stared at him…and talked behind his back…i was angry and tried to get them to tone it down….i felt his  pain…still do….even though i did understand  the shock at seeing someone so huge as what he is…my family and friends were not inentionally being crule or mean…and i know this…. He refuses to get any kind of help…last time he got sick and had to be taken to a hospital…it took over 30 fire and rescue personnel and a special ambulance to transport him…then they had to order a special hospital bed from other state to be shipped in….sigh….i watched in sadness and horror when he had to be moved…to avoid bed sores…he stays in the house for the most part…and his personality is downright nasty…even though one of the leading weight loss professionals offered to pay for him to enter a weight loss clinic all expenses paid…he refused and still does to this day I know how your heart must ache for your family member..i know mine does…i miss my brother…and i love him so…but  i know realistically you can lead a horse to water but…you can not make him drink all i can suggest is this…get some counselling for you and your family..to help cope with the anxiety and stress..our family is doing this..it really helps…all of us…and  hope and pray that some day before it is to late…he will get sick and tired of  remaining in the house…while the world and life go on with out him i will admit i have cried many tears over my brother…esp during the holidays…but i continue to hope that a miracle will happen….someday….because i know there is a beautiful person hiding in that house…behind those closed doors…drowning  his problems  and self esteem in over eating and giving in to his food adiction….what is so painful is that he gets angry when  do try to visit…if i do not bring him some kind of treat like candy , cupcakes , and snacks….it is hard when a family member can not be convinced to get the help they need…take care, you and your family are in my prayers always, good luck…Gypsy…:)

Response:

I appreciate both perspectives.  Thanks for taking the time to write. Unfortunately, his family doesn’t seem to have the ability to help him.  They don’t seem to understand the situation.  They don’t seem to even acknowledge mental illness.  My friend sat down with them, printed all this material from the web and they had a discussion about it, and how they were going to help.  So they got the therapist, but once that didn’t work, it’s like they forgot about the mental illness and it’s back to "I think he’s just lazy… he needs to get a job" Speaking of the therapist, what a joke.  He refused to come to the house until one of the parents complained about getting charged hundreds of dollars a week for a phone conversation once/twice a week.  He finally came to the house and prescribed xanax, but it has yet to be filled and he doesn’t want to take it. I can’t really relate to it, as my parents would be much more able to accept the situation.  But the reality is they can’t.  So my friend is the one who has to deal. The more I think about it, I think he DOES need to be kicked out.  If he is "lazy" then get him out.  It’s really unfortunate, but he doesn’t want to talk about it, doesn’t seem to want help, and the parent’s can’t deal… – Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sink or swim works for many people… Im sorry you had to choose Steve… but something like this isnt something that someone can just snap out of. It is a very real condition and needs to be addressed with kindness and understanding, hard as that might seem to be for some. Glad you got through it… Stacy  It was one option. Given the altenatives its maybe one of a number of real options. I am not discounting Vanessas option either. Incidentally the idea was to get out of deadlock . Notice what the original writer said. Notice I gave a bunch of options: hospitalization ( granted expensive) good therapist in maybe a day program , or in community living arrangement  and someone mentioned cognitive. Also Stacy some people like this spend years in their home . The idea is not to be mean, as I am not for tough love. If family can’t be as supportive as maybe Vannessa’s was, you have to think of options. -Steve | Bill I have a different answer then Vanessa. | I was homebound because I was allowed to be homebound. When I was | thrown out things started to change. Yes it was hard, Yes I came from | dysfunctional home and yes my mom was in a hospital on and off but | thats no reason to waste years of life. I wasted years thinking I was | a victim. My past maybe an excuse or the illness maybe a legitimate | excuse but its time to do something about it. It may be hard but he | has to get pushed to either a hospital or out to a therapist and | rehab or his own apt. There is no reason in the world for his parents | or family to continue accept this . Its not good for family or him. | If he gets his own place with a good therapist chances are he will | get better. I can get him to an exercise and diet program and get him | talking I think I can bring him out of it but its not my job to | really do so unless he is interested. . My alternative way is | definitely not for anyone but feeling hopeless alone in the home is | not going to solve things either. I remember the urgency people tried | to help me. It worked , I got thrown out and while it didn’t solve my | problems, it did get me out. Steve "Bill Weir" || A friend of mine has a brother who has been housebound for atleast a || year now.  Long story short, the family has tried to get him || counseling, and he spoke to a psychiatrist on the phone, but stopped || after maybe 2-3 months of phone therapy. || || The brother is in his 20’s and is causing lots of stress in the || household.  He doesn’t seem to want to help himself and gets very || defensive when the subject is brought up.  He seems completely || content with staying at home. || || Any suggestions?  Can he be forced to go to a psychiatric center?  My || belief is no since he isn’t a "threat to himself"  However, this || cannot continue and it is causing lots of stress at home for my || friend’s family. || || Thanks for all ideas/suggestions. || || Bill Weir

Response:

Sink or swim works for many people… Im sorry you had to choose Steve… but something like this isnt something that someone can just snap out of. It is a very real condition and needs to be addressed with kindness and understanding, hard as that might seem to be for some. Glad you got through it… Stacy

| Bill I have a different answer then Vanessa. | I was homebound because I was allowed to be homebound. When I was | thrown out things started to change. Yes it was hard, Yes I came from | dysfunctional home and yes my mom was in a hospital on and off but | thats no reason to waste years of life. I wasted years thinking I was | a victim. My past maybe an excuse or the illness maybe a legitimate | excuse but its time to do something about it. It may be hard but he | has to get pushed to either a hospital or out to a therapist and | rehab or his own apt. There is no reason in the world for his parents | or family to continue accept this . Its not good for family or him. | If he gets his own place with a good therapist chances are he will | get better. I can get him to an exercise and diet program and get him | talking I think I can bring him out of it but its not my job to | really do so unless he is interested. . My alternative way is | definitely not for anyone but feeling hopeless alone in the home is | not going to solve things either. I remember the urgency people tried | to help me. It worked , I got thrown out and while it didn’t solve my | problems, it did get me out. Steve "Bill Weir"

|| A friend of mine has a brother who has been housebound for atleast a || year now.  Long story short, the family has tried to get him || counseling, and he spoke to a psychiatrist on the phone, but stopped || after maybe 2-3 months of phone therapy. || || The brother is in his 20’s and is causing lots of stress in the || household.  He doesn’t seem to want to help himself and gets very || defensive when the subject is brought up.  He seems completely || content with staying at home. || || Any suggestions?  Can he be forced to go to a psychiatric center?  My || belief is no since he isn’t a "threat to himself"  However, this || cannot continue and it is causing lots of stress at home for my || friend’s family. || || Thanks for all ideas/suggestions. || || Bill Weir

Response:

Sink or swim works for many people… Im sorry you had to choose Steve… but something like this isnt something that someone can just snap out of. It is a very real condition and needs to be addressed with kindness and understanding, hard as that might seem to be for some. Glad you got through it… Stacy

 It was one option. Given the altenatives its maybe one of a number of real options. I am not discounting Vanessas option either. Incidentally the idea was to get out of deadlock . Notice what the original writer said. Notice I gave a bunch of options: hospitalization ( granted expensive) good therapist in maybe a day program , or in community living arrangement  and someone mentioned cognitive. Also Stacy some people like this spend years in their home . The idea is not to be mean, as I am not for tough love. If family can’t be as supportive as maybe Vannessa’s was, you have to think of options. -Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | Bill I have a different answer then Vanessa. | I was homebound because I was allowed to be homebound. When I was | thrown out things started to change. Yes it was hard, Yes I came from | dysfunctional home and yes my mom was in a hospital on and off but | thats no reason to waste years of life. I wasted years thinking I was | a victim. My past maybe an excuse or the illness maybe a legitimate | excuse but its time to do something about it. It may be hard but he | has to get pushed to either a hospital or out to a therapist and | rehab or his own apt. There is no reason in the world for his parents | or family to continue accept this . Its not good for family or him. | If he gets his own place with a good therapist chances are he will | get better. I can get him to an exercise and diet program and get him | talking I think I can bring him out of it but its not my job to | really do so unless he is interested. . My alternative way is | definitely not for anyone but feeling hopeless alone in the home is | not going to solve things either. I remember the urgency people tried | to help me. It worked , I got thrown out and while it didn’t solve my | problems, it did get me out. Steve "Bill Weir" || A friend of mine has a brother who has been housebound for atleast a || year now.  Long story short, the family has tried to get him || counseling, and he spoke to a psychiatrist on the phone, but stopped || after maybe 2-3 months of phone therapy. || || The brother is in his 20’s and is causing lots of stress in the || household.  He doesn’t seem to want to help himself and gets very || defensive when the subject is brought up.  He seems completely || content with staying at home. || || Any suggestions?  Can he be forced to go to a psychiatric center?  My || belief is no since he isn’t a "threat to himself"  However, this || cannot continue and it is causing lots of stress at home for my || friend’s family. || || Thanks for all ideas/suggestions. || || Bill Weir

Response:

Bill I have a different answer then Vanessa. I was homebound because I was allowed to be homebound. When I was thrown out things started to change. Yes it was hard, Yes I came from dysfunctional home and yes my mom was in a hospital on and off but thats no reason to waste years of life. I wasted years thinking I was a victim. My past maybe an excuse or the illness maybe a legitimate excuse but its time to do something about it. It may be hard but he has to get pushed to either a hospital or out to a therapist and rehab or his own apt. There is no reason in the world for his parents or family to continue accept this . Its not good for family or him. If he gets his own place with a good therapist chances are he will get better. I can get him to an exercise and diet program and get him talking I think I can bring him out of it but its not my job to really do so unless he is interested. . My alternative way is definitely not for anyone but feeling hopeless alone in the home is not going to solve things either. I remember the urgency people tried to help me. It worked , I got thrown out and while it didn’t solve my problems, it did get me out. Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a brother who has been housebound for atleast a year now.  Long story short, the family has tried to get him counseling, and he spoke to a psychiatrist on the phone, but stopped after maybe 2-3 months of phone therapy. The brother is in his 20’s and is causing lots of stress in the household.  He doesn’t seem to want to help himself and gets very defensive when the subject is brought up.  He seems completely content with staying at home. Any suggestions?  Can he be forced to go to a psychiatric center?  My belief is no since he isn’t a "threat to himself"  However, this cannot continue and it is causing lots of stress at home for my friend’s family. Thanks for all ideas/suggestions. Bill Weir

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine has a brother who has been housebound for atleast a year now.  Long story short, the family has tried to get him counseling, and he spoke to a psychiatrist on the phone, but stopped after maybe 2-3 months of phone therapy. The brother is in his 20’s and is causing lots of stress in the household.  He doesn’t seem to want to help himself and gets very defensive when the subject is brought up.  He seems completely content with staying at home. Any suggestions?  Can he be forced to go to a psychiatric center?  My belief is no since he isn’t a "threat to himself"  However, this cannot continue and it is causing lots of stress at home for my friend’s family. Thanks for all ideas/suggestions.

Hi Bill, I understand how hard it is for the family. I would like to explain a little how it might feel from the agoraphobic’s perspective. My biggest fear when I was housebound was that I was going crazy and that I would be taken away to an institution. Even when I was at home it was like a nightmare to get through each day. I would sometimes wet myself because I was too scared to go to bathroom when my anxiety was really high. I felt sorry for my parents who tried their best to help me, because I felt like a failure when I couldn’t do simple things they asked such as to go for a walk. I forced myself to go to places but I felt horrible the whole time I was out, suffering in silence…just waiting for the time to go by so I could get back to the safety of my home. Feelings of impending doom overwhelmed and it never subsided. Now back to your friend and his agoraphobic brother. He needs all the support he can get from his family. This is not something he is going to snap out of, and the last thing he needs to hear is how much stress this is causing the family. He will be feeling guilty enough already and his self-esteem  could be rock bottom which only feeds the irrationala and negative thoughts. To be housebound for a year is a long time to have developed a safe routine for him which is going to be hard (but not impossible) to change. It is a cliche but true, "he needs to ask for help himself". I can’t really know what will help in this situation, but can tell you what helped me. My family supported me and encouraged me and never made me feel guilty. They recognised it was an illness and that we were in it together. I was much younger so it was easier for them to give me advice. My family listened to my concerns and they would help me calm down and then they would attend therapy sessions with me. This not only helped me but it gave them an insight into the illness and they were able to reinforce the messages from therapy. That was 15 years ago and these days there are much better options available such as self-help books, online support, better medication and improved Cognitive behavioural therapy treatments. The key is to find treatment which provides some early signs of progress. This will help motivate an agoraphobic person to try taking further baby steps if they can see some improvement. Perhaps the phone therapy wasn’t helping at all or it wasn’t the right therapist. I am sorry I don’t have any real solutions but hope you understand how hard it is for the agoraphobic person. On the bright side, I have since married, had 4 children and work 4 days a week and have my condition under control. So the question is, how do you know this person doesn’t want treatment? It just might be all too hard for him right now and needs some understanding. Ultimately he does need to ask for help and I hope he does. Perhaps you can let him know of this news group. BTW, I do know how hard it is for the family, my niece is suffering with OCD and it so hard to see her family stressed out. Vanessa

Response:

A friend of mine has a brother who has been housebound for atleast a year now.  Long story short, the family has tried to get him counseling, and he spoke to a psychiatrist on the phone, but stopped after maybe 2-3 months of phone therapy. The brother is in his 20’s and is causing lots of stress in the household.  He doesn’t seem to want to help himself and gets very defensive when the subject is brought up.  He seems completely content with staying at home. Any suggestions?  Can he be forced to go to a psychiatric center?  My belief is no since he isn’t a "threat to himself"  However, this cannot continue and it is causing lots of stress at home for my friend’s family. Thanks for all ideas/suggestions. Bill Weir

Response:

Question:

I want to share the wisdom life has tauht me in my years of life on planet earth. Listen closely. I’ve learned that you cannot make someone love you. All you can do is stalk them and hope they panic and give in.

Question:

Frampy, I have to disagree with you.

Hehe…a bit of honest disagreement. Frampy however is railing at the idea that governments put up tobacco taxes as some sort of health incentive. They don’t. They never have. It’s a lie. They put up taxes to maximise revenues…..no other motive at all. Then they go on TV telling us how many folk will quit because of what they have done. The truth is that the government couldnt afford for us all to quit…we contribute far too much…way more than the health bill attatched to smoking. They are hypocrites and liars. If they wanted to stop people smoking then the tax hikes would be punitive….not merely inconvenient…they are designed that way…it is cynical. Anti-smoking legislation would be passed….a la the Californian model….and it would be enforced. Regular public information broadcasts would be held….none of this is done…they even make it difficult to quit when you want to. Access to free or subsidised NRT is a joke. In fact….short of banning smoking outright…everything would be done to discourage it and make it difficult and inconvenient. They do none of this….. On this one…I am with the frampmiester  :-) steveb

Response:

Stebie, if you insist that I read the entire post instead of just replying to the first line, then I think you are asking a LITTLE too much!! ;-P Actually, I agree with you, governments do not do it to help, but that IS one of the side effects of the tax increase. DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frampy, I have to disagree with you. Hehe…a bit of honest disagreement. Frampy however is railing at the idea that governments put up tobacco taxes as some sort of health incentive. They don’t. They never have. It’s a lie. They put up taxes to maximise revenues…..no other motive at all. Then they go on TV telling us how many folk will quit because of what they have done. The truth is that the government couldnt afford for us all to quit…we contribute far too much…way more than the health bill attatched to smoking. They are hypocrites and liars. If they wanted to stop people smoking then the tax hikes would be punitive….not merely inconvenient…they are designed that way…it is cynical. Anti-smoking legislation would be passed….a la the Californian model….and it would be enforced. Regular public information broadcasts would be held….none of this is done…they even make it difficult to quit when you want to. Access to free or subsidised NRT is a joke. In fact….short of banning smoking outright…everything would be done to discourage it and make it difficult and inconvenient. They do none of this….. On this one…I am with the frampmiester  :-) steveb

Response:

Stebie, if you insist that I read the entire post instead of just replying to the first line, then I think you are asking a LITTLE too much!!

Jeez DG you crack me up……lmao Don’t you have an igloo to hoover? stebie

Response:

… Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking –

I agree with DG — there is very good evidence that raising taxes *does* reduce smoking; in fact, it is perhaps the most effective public policy instrument there is. VOFs and older may remember the report issued by the World Bank on tobacco economics in 2000. From the FAQ, http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp    "Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising     taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is     not justified     Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes     reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related     deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent     others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also     reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and     reduce consumption among continuing smokers … Models developed     for this report show that tax increases that would raise the     real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause     40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum     of 10 million tobacco-related deaths." The complete text of the chapter on tobacco taxes is here: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/chapter4.asp Stepper VOF

Response:

Forgot to mention… don’t post about world health studies and the like… statistics will say what ever you want them to say… If you surveyed every smoker today and said "hmmm, if cigs went up 10% tomorrow, would you quit?"  Of course everyone in their right mind will say yes… will they all quit overnight "No f(*king likely"… again, just IMHO… but prove me wrong?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – I agree with DG — there is very good evidence that raising taxes *does* reduce smoking; in fact, it is perhaps the most effective public policy instrument there is. VOFs and older may remember the report issued by the World Bank on tobacco economics in 2000. From the FAQ, http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp    "Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising     taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is     not justified     Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes     reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related     deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent     others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also     reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and     reduce consumption among continuing smokers … Models developed     for this report show that tax increases that would raise the     real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause     40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum     of 10 million tobacco-related deaths." The complete text of the chapter on tobacco taxes is here: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/chapter4.asp Stepper VOF

Response:

No offense.. but that is really such a crock of shit! Governments have been raising taxes on nicotine & alcohol for how long now? Has it saved lives? has it stopped domestic violence?  F($k no it hasn’t…. Governments raise taxes on tobacco becuse they say smokers cost the health system more money than anyone else… now call me a f*$kwit… but I avoid the doctor like the plague – they are over paid fools IMHO. Maybe 90% of the world is different to Australia, but statistics over the last 2 year have shown out of one sector (teen females) that smoking is on the increase… Hmmm… non-full time working females can afford to smoke despite the cost????? give me a break! Government’s increase taxes possibly becuase more people are quitting – so what?  it just means the people that can afford to smoke keep on doing it – and others do it because it is a social thing "hey! look at me! I can afford to smoke these luxury items!" But mainly… governments rely on a cetain amount of taxes from these evil items each year to sustain themselves… can you imagine countries like the USA & Australia (for example) budgetting if they had no smokers & no drinkers????? no f*$king chance they’d survice – they couldn’t do it in a heart beat… cut the number of smokers by 1/2 over night and watch the government do a total and complete back flip – either than, or increase personal income tax – what is gonna cause the biggest ruckus???? tell me that! Governments don’t give a flying f*$k about the health of smokers, and if you believe otherwise (i.e u think they increase taxes to help people stop smoking) then you are nieve to say the very least…. Not trying to start an argument, just stating the totally obvious! Frampy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – I agree with DG — there is very good evidence that raising taxes *does* reduce smoking; in fact, it is perhaps the most effective public policy instrument there is. VOFs and older may remember the report issued by the World Bank on tobacco economics in 2000. From the FAQ, http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp    "Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising     taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is     not justified     Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes     reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related     deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent     others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also     reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and     reduce consumption among continuing smokers … Models developed     for this report show that tax increases that would raise the     real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause     40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum     of 10 million tobacco-related deaths." The complete text of the chapter on tobacco taxes is here: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/chapter4.asp Stepper VOF

Response:

Frampy, I have to disagree with you.  Cigs are 10.00 a pack here in Alberta, and smoking one pack a day is 300.00 a month.  Two people smoking in a family = the mortgage payment on a small house. So far, since the tax hike,  the number of smokers has dropped 20%.  People ARE quitting, Frampy.  Not JUST because of the price, but it sure is a contributing factor. I agree with you that the money collected ought to be spent subsidizing NRTs, and am very pissed off that my government thinks that a cheapo flyer delivered to every house and a 1-800 help quit smoking line is sufficient. It isnt. Also, 10 dollars is a cignificant (ooooo, great typo!  was that Freudian?? it’s too good to fix) amount of money for a kid to scrape up.  And THAT is important. I’m living in the high tax world, Frampy, it does work. DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good on them…. Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – hey, I smoked when they were A$5 a pack, and continued until they were almost A$11 a pack….  Just means you sacrifice other things to feed the adiction – and worse than that, the number of ram raids to steal cigarettes has increased which means increased insurance premiums for all shop owners… The governments of this world need to pull their fingers out of their arses and bring in real measures to help people stop smoking (i.e. subsidised patch pricing like they have in NZ) instead of increasing taxes on cigarettes under the disguise that it’s to make people quit. Science – Reuters Government Rejects Higher Cigarette Tax Wed Feb 26, 6:54 PM ET By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The federal government has rejected a plan that would raise the federal cigarette tax by $2 a pack to fund programs that would help smokers quit, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said on Wednesday. The plan, approved by the Health and Human Services’ Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health, would have set aside half the money raised for initiatives to help people stop smoking. But Thompson said the idea of raising the tax from the current 39 cents went against the basic philosophy of the administration of President Bush, which is both against raising taxes and pro-big business. "We are not contemplating it. This administration does not raise taxes," Thompson told a hearing of the House Budget Committee. HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said the department had never considered the idea of the tax, despite the committee’s recommendation. "The secretary, in response to that recommendation, said we are not contemplating it," Pierce said in a telephone interview. Anti-tobacco campaigners who had welcomed the committee’s recommendation expressed disappointment. "Special interest politicians have won out over a sound scientific proposal that would save millions of lives," William Corr, executive vice president at the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a telephone interview. Corr said cigarette taxes should be an exception to the administration’s anti-tax ideology. "Governors of all political parties, Republican, Democrat and independent, have raised their state excise taxes in 2002 and many are again proposing increases in 2003 because they are good health policy, reducing those who smoke and saving lives," Corr said. POLLS SHOW SUPPORT FOR A TAX Corr said his group commissioned a poll last October that found 60 percent of Americans support a $2 a pack increase. The telephone poll of 1,000 adults, done by Market Facts’ TeleNation, was submitted to the smoking and health committee. Health experts say smoking is the biggest single cause of preventable death, killing 400,000 people every year from heart disease and cancer. Thompson suggested last week he may look at other ways to pay for anti-smoking efforts. "I think the general premise of setting up some sort of fund to give dollars back to people who want to quit smoking is good," he told reporters, adding that 70 percent of smokers wanted to quit but could not get the support, including drugs, to do so. Several studies have shown that raising the price of cigarettes can deter smokers, especially teen-agers. But such a tax would not easily pass Congress. In a related development on Wednesday, three prominent U.S. Democrats who have been critics of the tobacco industry made public a letter that they said showed U.S. officials had asked Saudi Arabia for help in weakening global tobacco talks winding down in Geneva this week. The Feb. 8 letter was sent from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh shortly before the World Health Organization members began talks on a global anti-smoking treaty. Several U.S. health advocacy groups, including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association, have accused the United States of being the prime obstacle to a strong global treaty against smoking. (Additional reporting by Joanne Kenen) — Surgeon General’s Warning:  Quitting Religion Now Greatly Increases the Chances of World Peace.

Response:

Science – Reuters Government Rejects Higher Cigarette Tax Wed Feb 26, 6:54 PM ET By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The federal government has rejected a plan that would raise the federal cigarette tax by $2 a pack to fund programs that would help smokers quit, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said on Wednesday. The plan, approved by the Health and Human Services’ Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health, would have set aside half the money raised for initiatives to help people stop smoking. But Thompson said the idea of raising the tax from the current 39 cents went against the basic philosophy of the administration of President Bush, which is both against raising taxes and pro-big business. "We are not contemplating it. This administration does not raise taxes," Thompson told a hearing of the House Budget Committee. HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said the department had never considered the idea of the tax, despite the committee’s recommendation. "The secretary, in response to that recommendation, said we are not contemplating it," Pierce said in a telephone interview. Anti-tobacco campaigners who had welcomed the committee’s recommendation expressed disappointment. "Special interest politicians have won out over a sound scientific proposal that would save millions of lives," William Corr, executive vice president at the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a telephone interview. Corr said cigarette taxes should be an exception to the administration’s anti-tax ideology. "Governors of all political parties, Republican, Democrat and independent, have raised their state excise taxes in 2002 and many are again proposing increases in 2003 because they are good health policy, reducing those who smoke and saving lives," Corr said. POLLS SHOW SUPPORT FOR A TAX Corr said his group commissioned a poll last October that found 60 percent of Americans support a $2 a pack increase. The telephone poll of 1,000 adults, done by Market Facts’ TeleNation, was submitted to the smoking and health committee. Health experts say smoking is the biggest single cause of preventable death, killing 400,000 people every year from heart disease and cancer. Thompson suggested last week he may look at other ways to pay for anti-smoking efforts. "I think the general premise of setting up some sort of fund to give dollars back to people who want to quit smoking is good," he told reporters, adding that 70 percent of smokers wanted to quit but could not get the support, including drugs, to do so. Several studies have shown that raising the price of cigarettes can deter smokers, especially teen-agers. But such a tax would not easily pass Congress. In a related development on Wednesday, three prominent U.S. Democrats who have been critics of the tobacco industry made public a letter that they said showed U.S. officials had asked Saudi Arabia for help in weakening global tobacco talks winding down in Geneva this week. The Feb. 8 letter was sent from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh shortly before the World Health Organization members began talks on a global anti-smoking treaty. Several U.S. health advocacy groups, including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association, have accused the United States of being the prime obstacle to a strong global treaty against smoking. (Additional reporting by Joanne Kenen) — Surgeon General’s Warning:  Quitting Religion Now Greatly Increases the Chances of World Peace.

Response:

Good on them…. Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – hey, I smoked when they were A$5 a pack, and continued until they were almost A$11 a pack….  Just means you sacrifice other things to feed the adiction – and worse than that, the number of ram raids to steal cigarettes has increased which means increased insurance premiums for all shop owners… The governments of this world need to pull their fingers out of their arses and bring in real measures to help people stop smoking (i.e. subsidised patch pricing like they have in NZ) instead of increasing taxes on cigarettes under the disguise that it’s to make people quit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Science – Reuters Government Rejects Higher Cigarette Tax Wed Feb 26, 6:54 PM ET By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The federal government has rejected a plan that would raise the federal cigarette tax by $2 a pack to fund programs that would help smokers quit, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said on Wednesday. The plan, approved by the Health and Human Services’ Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health, would have set aside half the money raised for initiatives to help people stop smoking. But Thompson said the idea of raising the tax from the current 39 cents went against the basic philosophy of the administration of President Bush, which is both against raising taxes and pro-big business. "We are not contemplating it. This administration does not raise taxes," Thompson told a hearing of the House Budget Committee. HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said the department had never considered the idea of the tax, despite the committee’s recommendation. "The secretary, in response to that recommendation, said we are not contemplating it," Pierce said in a telephone interview. Anti-tobacco campaigners who had welcomed the committee’s recommendation expressed disappointment. "Special interest politicians have won out over a sound scientific proposal that would save millions of lives," William Corr, executive vice president at the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a telephone interview. Corr said cigarette taxes should be an exception to the administration’s anti-tax ideology. "Governors of all political parties, Republican, Democrat and independent, have raised their state excise taxes in 2002 and many are again proposing increases in 2003 because they are good health policy, reducing those who smoke and saving lives," Corr said. POLLS SHOW SUPPORT FOR A TAX Corr said his group commissioned a poll last October that found 60 percent of Americans support a $2 a pack increase. The telephone poll of 1,000 adults, done by Market Facts’ TeleNation, was submitted to the smoking and health committee. Health experts say smoking is the biggest single cause of preventable death, killing 400,000 people every year from heart disease and cancer. Thompson suggested last week he may look at other ways to pay for anti-smoking efforts. "I think the general premise of setting up some sort of fund to give dollars back to people who want to quit smoking is good," he told reporters, adding that 70 percent of smokers wanted to quit but could not get the support, including drugs, to do so. Several studies have shown that raising the price of cigarettes can deter smokers, especially teen-agers. But such a tax would not easily pass Congress. In a related development on Wednesday, three prominent U.S. Democrats who have been critics of the tobacco industry made public a letter that they said showed U.S. officials had asked Saudi Arabia for help in weakening global tobacco talks winding down in Geneva this week. The Feb. 8 letter was sent from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh shortly before the World Health Organization members began talks on a global anti-smoking treaty. Several U.S. health advocacy groups, including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association, have accused the United States of being the prime obstacle to a strong global treaty against smoking. (Additional reporting by Joanne Kenen) — Surgeon General’s Warning:  Quitting Religion Now Greatly Increases the Chances of World Peace.

Response:

Science – Reuters Government Rejects Higher Cigarette Tax Wed Feb 26, 6:54 PM ET By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The federal government has rejected a plan that would raise the federal cigarette tax by $2 a pack to fund programs that would help smokers quit, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said on Wednesday. The plan, approved by the Health and Human Services’ Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health, would have set aside half the money raised for initiatives to help people stop smoking. But Thompson said the idea of raising the tax from the current 39 cents went against the basic philosophy of the administration of President Bush, which is both against raising taxes and pro-big business. "We are not contemplating it. This administration does not raise taxes," Thompson told a hearing of the House Budget Committee. HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said the department had never considered the idea of the tax, despite the committee’s recommendation. "The secretary, in response to that recommendation, said we are not contemplating it," Pierce said in a telephone interview. Anti-tobacco campaigners who had welcomed the committee’s recommendation expressed disappointment. "Special interest politicians have won out over a sound scientific proposal that would save millions of lives," William Corr, executive vice president at the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a telephone interview. Corr said cigarette taxes should be an exception to the administration’s anti-tax ideology. "Governors of all political parties, Republican, Democrat and independent, have raised their state excise taxes in 2002 and many are again proposing increases in 2003 because they are good health policy, reducing those who smoke and saving lives," Corr said. POLLS SHOW SUPPORT FOR A TAX Corr said his group commissioned a poll last October that found 60 percent of Americans support a $2 a pack increase. The telephone poll of 1,000 adults, done by Market Facts’ TeleNation, was submitted to the smoking and health committee. Health experts say smoking is the biggest single cause of preventable death, killing 400,000 people every year from heart disease and cancer. Thompson suggested last week he may look at other ways to pay for anti-smoking efforts. "I think the general premise of setting up some sort of fund to give dollars back to people who want to quit smoking is good," he told reporters, adding that 70 percent of smokers wanted to quit but could not get the support, including drugs, to do so. Several studies have shown that raising the price of cigarettes can deter smokers, especially teen-agers. But such a tax would not easily pass Congress. In a related development on Wednesday, three prominent U.S. Democrats who have been critics of the tobacco industry made public a letter that they said showed U.S. officials had asked Saudi Arabia for help in weakening global tobacco talks winding down in Geneva this week. The Feb. 8 letter was sent from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh shortly before the World Health Organization members began talks on a global anti-smoking treaty. Several U.S. health advocacy groups, including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association, have accused the United States of being the prime obstacle to a strong global treaty against smoking. (Additional reporting by Joanne Kenen) — Surgeon General’s Warning:  Quitting Religion Now Greatly Increases the Chances of World Peace.

Response:

Good on them…. Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – hey, I smoked when they were A$5 a pack, and continued until they were almost A$11 a pack….  Just means you sacrifice other things to feed the adiction – and worse than that, the number of ram raids to steal cigarettes has increased which means increased insurance premiums for all shop owners… The governments of this world need to pull their fingers out of their arses and bring in real measures to help people stop smoking (i.e. subsidised patch pricing like they have in NZ) instead of increasing taxes on cigarettes under the disguise that it’s to make people quit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Science – Reuters Government Rejects Higher Cigarette Tax Wed Feb 26, 6:54 PM ET By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The federal government has rejected a plan that would raise the federal cigarette tax by $2 a pack to fund programs that would help smokers quit, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said on Wednesday. The plan, approved by the Health and Human Services’ Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health, would have set aside half the money raised for initiatives to help people stop smoking. But Thompson said the idea of raising the tax from the current 39 cents went against the basic philosophy of the administration of President Bush, which is both against raising taxes and pro-big business. "We are not contemplating it. This administration does not raise taxes," Thompson told a hearing of the House Budget Committee. HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said the department had never considered the idea of the tax, despite the committee’s recommendation. "The secretary, in response to that recommendation, said we are not contemplating it," Pierce said in a telephone interview. Anti-tobacco campaigners who had welcomed the committee’s recommendation expressed disappointment. "Special interest politicians have won out over a sound scientific proposal that would save millions of lives," William Corr, executive vice president at the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a telephone interview. Corr said cigarette taxes should be an exception to the administration’s anti-tax ideology. "Governors of all political parties, Republican, Democrat and independent, have raised their state excise taxes in 2002 and many are again proposing increases in 2003 because they are good health policy, reducing those who smoke and saving lives," Corr said. POLLS SHOW SUPPORT FOR A TAX Corr said his group commissioned a poll last October that found 60 percent of Americans support a $2 a pack increase. The telephone poll of 1,000 adults, done by Market Facts’ TeleNation, was submitted to the smoking and health committee. Health experts say smoking is the biggest single cause of preventable death, killing 400,000 people every year from heart disease and cancer. Thompson suggested last week he may look at other ways to pay for anti-smoking efforts. "I think the general premise of setting up some sort of fund to give dollars back to people who want to quit smoking is good," he told reporters, adding that 70 percent of smokers wanted to quit but could not get the support, including drugs, to do so. Several studies have shown that raising the price of cigarettes can deter smokers, especially teen-agers. But such a tax would not easily pass Congress. In a related development on Wednesday, three prominent U.S. Democrats who have been critics of the tobacco industry made public a letter that they said showed U.S. officials had asked Saudi Arabia for help in weakening global tobacco talks winding down in Geneva this week. The Feb. 8 letter was sent from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh shortly before the World Health Organization members began talks on a global anti-smoking treaty. Several U.S. health advocacy groups, including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association, have accused the United States of being the prime obstacle to a strong global treaty against smoking. (Additional reporting by Joanne Kenen) — Surgeon General’s Warning:  Quitting Religion Now Greatly Increases the Chances of World Peace.

Response:

Frampy, I have to disagree with you.  Cigs are 10.00 a pack here in Alberta, and smoking one pack a day is 300.00 a month.  Two people smoking in a family = the mortgage payment on a small house. So far, since the tax hike,  the number of smokers has dropped 20%.  People ARE quitting, Frampy.  Not JUST because of the price, but it sure is a contributing factor. I agree with you that the money collected ought to be spent subsidizing NRTs, and am very pissed off that my government thinks that a cheapo flyer delivered to every house and a 1-800 help quit smoking line is sufficient. It isnt. Also, 10 dollars is a cignificant (ooooo, great typo!  was that Freudian?? it’s too good to fix) amount of money for a kid to scrape up.  And THAT is important. I’m living in the high tax world, Frampy, it does work. DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good on them…. Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – hey, I smoked when they were A$5 a pack, and continued until they were almost A$11 a pack….  Just means you sacrifice other things to feed the adiction – and worse than that, the number of ram raids to steal cigarettes has increased which means increased insurance premiums for all shop owners… The governments of this world need to pull their fingers out of their arses and bring in real measures to help people stop smoking (i.e. subsidised patch pricing like they have in NZ) instead of increasing taxes on cigarettes under the disguise that it’s to make people quit. Science – Reuters Government Rejects Higher Cigarette Tax Wed Feb 26, 6:54 PM ET By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The federal government has rejected a plan that would raise the federal cigarette tax by $2 a pack to fund programs that would help smokers quit, Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said on Wednesday. The plan, approved by the Health and Human Services’ Interagency Committee on Smoking and Health, would have set aside half the money raised for initiatives to help people stop smoking. But Thompson said the idea of raising the tax from the current 39 cents went against the basic philosophy of the administration of President Bush, which is both against raising taxes and pro-big business. "We are not contemplating it. This administration does not raise taxes," Thompson told a hearing of the House Budget Committee. HHS spokesman Bill Pierce said the department had never considered the idea of the tax, despite the committee’s recommendation. "The secretary, in response to that recommendation, said we are not contemplating it," Pierce said in a telephone interview. Anti-tobacco campaigners who had welcomed the committee’s recommendation expressed disappointment. "Special interest politicians have won out over a sound scientific proposal that would save millions of lives," William Corr, executive vice president at the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said in a telephone interview. Corr said cigarette taxes should be an exception to the administration’s anti-tax ideology. "Governors of all political parties, Republican, Democrat and independent, have raised their state excise taxes in 2002 and many are again proposing increases in 2003 because they are good health policy, reducing those who smoke and saving lives," Corr said. POLLS SHOW SUPPORT FOR A TAX Corr said his group commissioned a poll last October that found 60 percent of Americans support a $2 a pack increase. The telephone poll of 1,000 adults, done by Market Facts’ TeleNation, was submitted to the smoking and health committee. Health experts say smoking is the biggest single cause of preventable death, killing 400,000 people every year from heart disease and cancer. Thompson suggested last week he may look at other ways to pay for anti-smoking efforts. "I think the general premise of setting up some sort of fund to give dollars back to people who want to quit smoking is good," he told reporters, adding that 70 percent of smokers wanted to quit but could not get the support, including drugs, to do so. Several studies have shown that raising the price of cigarettes can deter smokers, especially teen-agers. But such a tax would not easily pass Congress. In a related development on Wednesday, three prominent U.S. Democrats who have been critics of the tobacco industry made public a letter that they said showed U.S. officials had asked Saudi Arabia for help in weakening global tobacco talks winding down in Geneva this week. The Feb. 8 letter was sent from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh shortly before the World Health Organization members began talks on a global anti-smoking treaty. Several U.S. health advocacy groups, including the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association, have accused the United States of being the prime obstacle to a strong global treaty against smoking. (Additional reporting by Joanne Kenen) — Surgeon General’s Warning:  Quitting Religion Now Greatly Increases the Chances of World Peace.

Response:

Frampy, I have to disagree with you.

Hehe…a bit of honest disagreement. Frampy however is railing at the idea that governments put up tobacco taxes as some sort of health incentive. They don’t. They never have. It’s a lie. They put up taxes to maximise revenues…..no other motive at all. Then they go on TV telling us how many folk will quit because of what they have done. The truth is that the government couldnt afford for us all to quit…we contribute far too much…way more than the health bill attatched to smoking. They are hypocrites and liars. If they wanted to stop people smoking then the tax hikes would be punitive….not merely inconvenient…they are designed that way…it is cynical. Anti-smoking legislation would be passed….a la the Californian model….and it would be enforced. Regular public information broadcasts would be held….none of this is done…they even make it difficult to quit when you want to. Access to free or subsidised NRT is a joke. In fact….short of banning smoking outright…everything would be done to discourage it and make it difficult and inconvenient. They do none of this….. On this one…I am with the frampmiester  :-) steveb

Response:

Stebie, if you insist that I read the entire post instead of just replying to the first line, then I think you are asking a LITTLE too much!! ;-P Actually, I agree with you, governments do not do it to help, but that IS one of the side effects of the tax increase. DG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frampy, I have to disagree with you. Hehe…a bit of honest disagreement. Frampy however is railing at the idea that governments put up tobacco taxes as some sort of health incentive. They don’t. They never have. It’s a lie. They put up taxes to maximise revenues…..no other motive at all. Then they go on TV telling us how many folk will quit because of what they have done. The truth is that the government couldnt afford for us all to quit…we contribute far too much…way more than the health bill attatched to smoking. They are hypocrites and liars. If they wanted to stop people smoking then the tax hikes would be punitive….not merely inconvenient…they are designed that way…it is cynical. Anti-smoking legislation would be passed….a la the Californian model….and it would be enforced. Regular public information broadcasts would be held….none of this is done…they even make it difficult to quit when you want to. Access to free or subsidised NRT is a joke. In fact….short of banning smoking outright…everything would be done to discourage it and make it difficult and inconvenient. They do none of this….. On this one…I am with the frampmiester  :-) steveb

Response:

Stebie, if you insist that I read the entire post instead of just replying to the first line, then I think you are asking a LITTLE too much!!

Jeez DG you crack me up……lmao Don’t you have an igloo to hoover? stebie

Response:

… Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking –

I agree with DG — there is very good evidence that raising taxes *does* reduce smoking; in fact, it is perhaps the most effective public policy instrument there is. VOFs and older may remember the report issued by the World Bank on tobacco economics in 2000. From the FAQ, http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp    "Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising     taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is     not justified     Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes     reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related     deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent     others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also     reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and     reduce consumption among continuing smokers … Models developed     for this report show that tax increases that would raise the     real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause     40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum     of 10 million tobacco-related deaths." The complete text of the chapter on tobacco taxes is here: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/chapter4.asp Stepper VOF

Response:

No offense.. but that is really such a crock of shit! Governments have been raising taxes on nicotine & alcohol for how long now? Has it saved lives? has it stopped domestic violence?  F($k no it hasn’t…. Governments raise taxes on tobacco becuse they say smokers cost the health system more money than anyone else… now call me a f*$kwit… but I avoid the doctor like the plague – they are over paid fools IMHO. Maybe 90% of the world is different to Australia, but statistics over the last 2 year have shown out of one sector (teen females) that smoking is on the increase… Hmmm… non-full time working females can afford to smoke despite the cost????? give me a break! Government’s increase taxes possibly becuase more people are quitting – so what?  it just means the people that can afford to smoke keep on doing it – and others do it because it is a social thing "hey! look at me! I can afford to smoke these luxury items!" But mainly… governments rely on a cetain amount of taxes from these evil items each year to sustain themselves… can you imagine countries like the USA & Australia (for example) budgetting if they had no smokers & no drinkers????? no f*$king chance they’d survice – they couldn’t do it in a heart beat… cut the number of smokers by 1/2 over night and watch the government do a total and complete back flip – either than, or increase personal income tax – what is gonna cause the biggest ruckus???? tell me that! Governments don’t give a flying f*$k about the health of smokers, and if you believe otherwise (i.e u think they increase taxes to help people stop smoking) then you are nieve to say the very least…. Not trying to start an argument, just stating the totally obvious! Frampy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – I agree with DG — there is very good evidence that raising taxes *does* reduce smoking; in fact, it is perhaps the most effective public policy instrument there is. VOFs and older may remember the report issued by the World Bank on tobacco economics in 2000. From the FAQ, http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp    "Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising     taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is     not justified     Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes     reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related     deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent     others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also     reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and     reduce consumption among continuing smokers … Models developed     for this report show that tax increases that would raise the     real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause     40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum     of 10 million tobacco-related deaths." The complete text of the chapter on tobacco taxes is here: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/chapter4.asp Stepper VOF

Response:

Forgot to mention… don’t post about world health studies and the like… statistics will say what ever you want them to say… If you surveyed every smoker today and said "hmmm, if cigs went up 10% tomorrow, would you quit?"  Of course everyone in their right mind will say yes… will they all quit overnight "No f(*king likely"… again, just IMHO… but prove me wrong?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Raising taxes does very little to stop people from smoking – I agree with DG — there is very good evidence that raising taxes *does* reduce smoking; in fact, it is perhaps the most effective public policy instrument there is. VOFs and older may remember the report issued by the World Bank on tobacco economics in 2000. From the FAQ, http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/faq.asp    "Myth 5: Tobacco addiction is so strong that simply raising     taxes will not reduce demand; therefore, raising taxes is     not justified     Reality: Scores of studies have shown that increased taxes     reduce the number of smokers and the number of smoking-related     deaths. Price increases induce some smokers to quit and prevent     others from becoming regular or persistent smokers. They also     reduce the number of ex-smokers returning to cigarettes and     reduce consumption among continuing smokers … Models developed     for this report show that tax increases that would raise the     real price of cigarettes by 10 percent worldwide would cause     40 million smokers alive in 1995 to quit and prevent a minimum     of 10 million tobacco-related deaths." The complete text of the chapter on tobacco taxes is here: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/chapter4.asp Stepper VOF

Response:

Question:

We call that recruitment.

I have never been recruited by anyone. The first time I came across Sahaja Yoga I was on holidays far away (2000 km) from my home. I saw a poster inviting anyone to a programme of meditation and selfrealization through Sahaja Yoga. I went and got my Kundalini awakening FREE OF CHARGE. After coming back from holidays I forgot about my experience for some time. But surprisingly enough I discovered that I was disgusted by alcohol and smoking. My mother, who had meditated for a year, got rid of her stomach ulcer(she used to suffer a lot, I assure you). Then I disided to start meditating as well. In some time we got an idea that we could help many people in our city as well by helping rise their Kundalini. So we organised several programmes(always free of charge). Some people who got their Kundalini awakening went on meditating, others I never met again – it is all a question of a personal choise. Do you call this recruiting? This was several years ago. I still organize programmes  some times, paying all the expenses myself, and never take a penny from anyone. Niether does Shri Mataji My personal experience: http://www.geocities.com/tambovchankabe

Response:

WHO IS "MATAJI" NIRMALA DEVI AND WHAT IS SAHAJA YOGA? http://mitglied.lycos.de/Sahaja_Yoga_Facts/index1.htm http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/Mataji.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We call that recruitment. I have never been recruited by anyone. The first time I came across Sahaja Yoga I was on holidays far away (2000 km) from my home. I saw a poster inviting anyone to a programme of meditation and selfrealization through Sahaja Yoga. I went and got my Kundalini awakening FREE OF CHARGE. After coming back from holidays I forgot about my experience for some time. But surprisingly enough I discovered that I was disgusted by alcohol and smoking. My mother, who had meditated for a year, got rid of her stomach ulcer(she used to suffer a lot, I assure you). Then I disided to start meditating as well. In some time we got an idea that we could help many people in our city as well by helping rise their Kundalini. So we organised several programmes(always free of charge). Some people who got their Kundalini awakening went on meditating, others I never met again – it is all a question of a personal choise. Do you call this recruiting? This was several years ago. I still organize programmes  some times, paying all the expenses myself, and never take a penny from anyone. Niether does Shri Mataji My personal experience: http://www.geocities.com/tambovchankabe

Response:

I think Olga means Shirdi Sai Baba or Sai Bab of Shirdi, Shirdi is a place in the state of Maharashtra in India, and Sri Shirdi Sai Baba continues to be revered by devotees today, Hindus and Muslims fought over what to do with his remains after he took Samadhi – and there was a proclamation from the skies, and the body became flowers, half taken by Hindus and the other half by the muslims. More on Shirdi Sai Baba: http://www.saibaba.org/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That indeed is a great article.  Satya Sai Baba is very powerful though. His power runs deep into the authorities of the Indian government. He is only beginning to fall from his self-created and manipulative grace. Swami The false Sai Baba you’re talking about is asatya. The real one lived and died long ago. He was a great Indian saint. His message for his disciples (who were hindus as well as moslims)was that they had to give up their conditionings and follow their inner dharma. No real saint belongs to one particular religion (which one would that be?)

Response:

Dear Olga, Regret to inform you that you have been hypnotized by MATAJI. It is for sure.

When there is no other argument left, you can say this. By the way, I don’t think it is possible to get rid from asthma or stomach ulcer or drug adiction or hipertention by being hypnotised. Secondly, KUNDALINI is the name of a system which  can be found in all yoga forms, each yogi tries to give a rise to his/her kundalini.So it is not dependent upon MATAJI…

Is your own Kundalini awakend? before it is, I don’t think you have any right to judge about it As you have not study any real yoga you believe whatever MATAJI says!

I have The husband of MATAJI is an UN OFFICER, An UN OFFICER can get his money from all the members of UN. And the money  he gets is not enought to afford his wifes` journeys and expensive hotel expenses. Just try to know how much it will cost to  a person to rent a conferens hall in a luxorious hotel.

The Royal Albert Hall in London is every year available for a Sahaja Yoga program for free. The other halls are payed with free donations of Sahaja yogis I am sure one day you will learn and be awaken from your dream. But then it will hurt very much.

olga

Response:

Sahaja-yoga is a cult.  While the initial practices may be free, the set up is to encourage you to accept Nirmala Devi as your guru and join their organization. Nirmala Devi regards herself as the living incarnation of the Mother of the Universe, solely responsible for all kundalini activity on this world.  At best this makes her eccentric, at worst (and more likely) a borderline psychotic. http://www.sahaja-yoga.org/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – named as yoga and pushed to the marked.But it is easy to check them… Sahaja Yoga, and many others collect money to teach their bolognies. .Don.t give them any penny. PUMA Dear Puma, it’s getting tiresome to repeat the same thing over and over and over again: SAHAJA YOGA IS FREE OF CHARGE. I know this because I have practised it for about eight years. I have not given ANYTHING to SAHAJA YOGA, but have received a lot. So, plaese, would you be so kind to please stop writing false accusation against Sahaja Yoga, and please don’t mix it with the rest. By the way, what makes you so sure about what you say? One or two junk web-sites full of intentional lies? Have you seen the rest (couple of thousands)? with best regards Olga

Response:

We call that recruitment.

I have never been recruited by anyone. The first time I came across Sahaja Yoga I was on holidays far away (2000 km) from my home. I saw a poster inviting anyone to a programme of meditation and selfrealization through Sahaja Yoga. I went and got my Kundalini awakening FREE OF CHARGE. After coming back from holidays I forgot about my experience for some time. But surprisingly enough I discovered that I was disgusted by alcohol and smoking. My mother, who had meditated for a year, got rid of her stomach ulcer(she used to suffer a lot, I assure you). Then I disided to start meditating as well. In some time we got an idea that we could help many people in our city as well by helping rise their Kundalini. So we organised several programmes(always free of charge). Some people who got their Kundalini awakening went on meditating, others I never met again – it is all a question of a personal choise. Do you call this recruiting? This was several years ago. I still organize programmes  some times, paying all the expenses myself, and never take a penny from anyone. Niether does Shri Mataji My personal experience: http://www.geocities.com/tambovchankebe

Response:

[snip] The Royal Albert Hall in London is every year available for a Sahaja Yoga program for free. The other halls are payed with free donations of Sahaja yogis

We call that recruitment.

Response:

The false Sai Baba you’re talking about is asatya.

When I wrote "Satya Sai Baba" above I didn’t mean he was satya.  I was simply referring to him as the name he is known all over the world. The real one lived and died long ago. He was a great Indian saint.

His name was Shri Sai Baba.  This new Sai Baba (really an old one now, because he will be dead very soon unable to fulfill his prophecy) claims to be the reincarnation of Shri Sai Baba.

Response:

The false Sai Baba you’re talking about is asatya. When I wrote "Satya Sai Baba" above I didn’t mean he was satya.  I was simply referring to him as the name he is known all over the world. The real one lived and died long ago. He was a great Indian saint. His name was Shri Sai Baba.  This new Sai Baba (really an old one now, because he will be dead very soon unable to fulfill his prophecy) claims to be the reincarnation of Shri Sai Baba.

Now Mr. Swami seems the same name theory you mentioned to me elsewhere is not applicable with you you little idiot, shut your mouth up

Response:

That indeed is a great article.  Satya Sai Baba is very powerful though. His power runs deep into the authorities of the Indian government. He is only beginning to fall from his self-created and manipulative grace. Swami The false Sai Baba you’re talking about is asatya. The real one lived and died long ago. He was a great Indian saint. His message for his disciples (who were hindus as well as moslims)was that they had to give up their conditionings and follow their inner dharma. No real saint belongs to one particular religion (which one would that be?)

Dear friend ! don’t get involved with this self proclaimed idiot Swami .. he is a notorious character on this NG, even if you try your best these idiot will never talk in good sense.. anyway you made very good point about Sai Baba

Response:

His name was Shri Sai Baba.  This new Sai Baba (really an old one now, because he will be dead very soon unable to fulfill his prophecy) claims to be the reincarnation of Shri Sai Baba.

"seems the same name theory you mentioned to me elsewhere is not applicable with you " What name theory?  I provided facts concerning this Satya Sai Baba, which can be researched and studied on the Internet at various sources.

"you little idiot, shut your mouth up" I believe I was in the middle of a discussion with Olga here.  So unless you ask her stop as well, then I will pay you no mind. You really must learn better people skills before jumping into conversations, discussions and newsgroup exchanges. Swami

Response:

"anyway you made very good point about Sai Baba" Simply illogic a.k.a. father of yogurt first badmouths me, then he agrees with me.  Have you gone mad simply illogic? Really??? This is what simply illogic wrote (1/5/2003): "don’t get involved with this self proclaimed idiot Swami .. he is a notorious character on this NG, even if you try your best these idiot will never talk in good sense.." This is what I, Swami Da Prem wrote (1/3/2003): "That indeed is a great article.  Satya Sai Baba is very powerful though. His power runs deep into the authorities of the Indian government. "He is only beginning to fall from his self-created and manipulative grace." Then simply illogic wrote this: "anyway you made very good point about Sai Baba", which was him agreeing with Puma who was agreeing and thanking Brother Brahman-Atmananda for posting the great article. So, to run this by for everyone, simply illogic was agreeing with myself, Puma and Brother Brahman-Atmananda about the Satya Sai Baba article. Swami

Response:

don’t get involved with this self proclaimed idiot Swami .. he is a notorious character on this NG, even if you try your best these idiot will never talk in good sense..

You fool! Swami Premabrahmananda is not self-proclaimed. You know nothing! Premabrahmananda speaks truth yet you are too ignorant to realize this, and your pride keeps you entangled in your own ignorance. Your ego compels you to jump into others’ discussions (mainly those in which Premabrahmananda is initiated in), and get your ignorant 2 cents in. Most of the time your ‘2 cents’ is the attempted defilement of Premabrahmananda. However, you fail at that, because most of your remarks are hypocritical and self-contradictory. As for your attempts to argue or (haha) discuss a matter, you have no true knowledge base to structure your arguments on. And I said TRUE knowledge, not things you THINK are correct. You attack Premabrahmanandaji’s words without having the true knowledge to back it up. Why do you waste your time? You think Premabrahmananda is self-proclaimed because he stated that becoming a Swami was between him and God. If it was not for God’s will, and Premabrahmananda’s efforts, how then, could he be ordained a swami by the President of the Phillipine International Order of Universalist Swamis? (rhetorical) So essentially becoming a swami is between the devotee and God. The guru merely performs the ceremonial ordination. The guru knows whether the devotee passes the "test" for becoming a swami, if he did not, he would not be a real guru, now would he? That is rhetorical because you do not know the answer. Even if you try to answer it with something stupid such as stating that the guru could be false, etc. who are you to make this determination? Who are you to call someone’s guru a fake? Unless you are a guru yourself? You must be. And you state: even if you try your best these idiot will never talk in good sense..

These idiot? What are you talking about? Anyway.. "Even if you try your best", so you admit that you try your best to prove him wrong, however as I stated earlier, you have no TRUE knowledge base to back up your arguments. "These idiot will never talk in good sense" These idiot? Talk in good sense? Is english your first language? I sincerely hope not, for your sake. What do you mean by "never talk in good sense"?.. You mean that he will never actually say something that your ignorant, ego-controlled, mind will agree with? Now, now. I’m sure on some occasions you agree with him, whether your pride lets you post that way or not, most often not. Regardless of whether you agree with him or not, your idea of "good sense", as it were, is not the standard basis upon which a comment is evaluated. Open your eyes. Give in for once. Try it. Do you really like being the puppet of your ignorance? of your pride and ego? You may even be too ignorant to understand what I’m saying now, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you arent. Only when you follow (a true path) can you begin to lead. Unfortunately, mere or even simple, logic is not any way to truly learn. The definition of logic: Logic 1. The science or art of exact reasoning, or of pure and       formal thought, or of the laws according to which the       processes of pure thinking should be conducted; the       science of the formation and application of general       notions; the science of generalization, judgment,       classification, reasoning, and systematic arrangement. How can you reason what God’s bliss feels like? How can you reason how vast God truly is? Learn to think with your heart, it is the purest thinking of all. Maybe this way you will learn the path proper for yourself. Use of the mind alone does not result in self-knowledge. Especially a closed mind. Nor does a closed heart, for these both are imprisoning. Open your heart, Open your mind. Brahmansha

Response:

Dear Olga, Regret to inform you that you have been hypnotized by MATAJI. It is for sure. Your reply is far being satisfactory. First you should note that MATAJI did not have any GURU… Secondly, KUNDALINI is the name of a system which  can be found in all yoga forms, each yogi tries to give a rise to his/her kundalini.So it is not dependent upon MATAJI… Mataji is a liar, Enlightenment or Kundalini rise is such  a phenemenon that happens by itself without depending upon any other person. As you have not study any real yoga you believe whatever MATAJI says! The husband of MATAJI is an UN OFFICER, An UN OFFICER can get his money from all the members of UN. And the money  he gets is not enought to afford his wifes` journeys and expensive hotel expenses. Just try to know how much it will cost to  a person to rent a conferens hall in a luxorious hotel.And many expensive Journeys. An UN OFFICIAL can not afford it my poor friend. If you belive anything, and if you put it under conscious state of a person,it helps, to heal. But MATAJI herself is sick, she  can not walk, she only can go from place to place on an amed chair. If she is that much  HOLY, then let her HEAL HERSELF. You can not get it, I am very sorry for you and for other people. YOU JUST BELIEVE ONE THING, THE POWER YOU NEED IS WITHIN YOURSELF. NOT WITHIN MATAJI OR ANY OTHER CHEATER. I am sure one day you will learn and be awaken from your dream. But then it will hurt very much. Best wishes, PUMA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Puma, it’s getting tiresome to repeat the same thing over and over and over again: SAHAJA YOGA IS FREE OF CHARGE. I know this because I have practised it for about eight years. I have not given ANYTHING to SAHAJA YOGA, but have received a lot. So, plaese, would you be so kind to please stop writing false accusation against Sahaja Yoga, and please don’t mix it with the rest. By the way, what makes you so sure about what you say? One or two junk web-sites full of intentional lies? Have you seen the rest (couple of thousands)? with best regards Olga Can you tell me how free is the golden framed MATAJII`s pictures?People buy it and put it on their outfits!!! People who sell golden frames for the photographs, first have to buy the needed amount of gold, after that they make the frames, after that they sell it. Do they have to give them for free? Who is the first GURU of this YOGA, any successors if there is any ??? Atmasakshatkar through Kundalini awakening used to be a great secret given from one Guru to one disciple(one in a century may be) The first great Indian saint to talk about Kundalini openly was JNANESHWAR(Maharashtra). he was the first one as well to use the word Sahaja (spontaneous) I suppose you are familiar with Devi Mahatmya (Saptashati, Vedas). There it is written, that only by the grace of the Devi one kan get "the knowledge, leading to the perfection", or Selfrealization. She is the one present evrywhere as her power Paramchaitanya. She is preasent in every human being in a form of hunger, thist, sleep, beauty, chitta, energy, shraddha etc. Our Kundalini is just a reflection of Her. She has incarnated on this Earth as Durga(slaighing the demons) Mataji pretends herself as if she is HALF GOD, GOD HEAD, DEVI, who has given these superior names to her??? Shri Mataji is Mahamaya. Did you expect her to ride around on a tiger? It is very easy to recognize her though, if one has an open mind and an open heart(just a little intuition) I am against to all the CHARLATANS,CHEATERS… MATAJI is the same.As she pretends to heal some people My own mothwer used to have a stomach ulser, after practising Sahaja yoga not even a scar is left. I know personally several people who have got rid of canser  but she herself actually needs healing. As she is going around by arm chair on the wheeles.Why? So that it wouldn’t be too easy for stupid people to get something precious, which that don’t deserve Tell me if she is honest, and if you know her very well. How MATAJI gets that much money to make journeys all over the world in order to make the commercials of her cult, if no money is collected???? Shri Mataji’s family is very prosperous. her husband used to be a Secretary General of the Indian-British Maritime organization at UN. I guess His pension is big enough to afford the trips(my parents in low travel as well, though they are very simple people) How she gets the money to spend for her TALKS in order to make her cult`s commercials in luxorious hotels????You have to give me SOLID explanations if you want to defend her! If you can not, please keep quite!  Are you envious? Always be aware,please note that no one can deliver enlightenment to others.Enlightenment can happen by itself, not the help of others! ALL the POWER we need is within us, not anywhere else… Do you mean Kundalini? She is our internal spiritual Mother, she is the mechanism, thanks to which Selfrealization happens. And she is absolutely obidient to the One whose reflection she is With best Wishes. PUMA Olga

Response:

Dear Puma, it’s getting tiresome to repeat the same thing over and over and over again: SAHAJA YOGA IS FREE OF CHARGE. I know this because I have practised it for about eight years. I have not given ANYTHING to SAHAJA YOGA, but have received a lot. So, plaese, would you be so kind to please stop writing false accusation against Sahaja Yoga, and please don’t mix it with the rest. By the way, what makes you so sure about what you say? One or two junk web-sites full of intentional lies? Have you seen the rest (couple of thousands)? with best regards Olga Can you tell me how free is the golden framed MATAJII`s pictures?People buy it and put it on their outfits!!!

People who sell golden frames for the photographs, first have to buy the needed amount of gold, after that they make the frames, after that they sell it. Do they have to give them for free? Who is the first GURU of this YOGA, any successors if there is any ???

Atmasakshatkar through Kundalini awakening used to be a great secret given from one Guru to one disciple(one in a century may be) The first great Indian saint to talk about Kundalini openly was JNANESHWAR(Maharashtra). he was the first one as well to use the word Sahaja (spontaneous) I suppose you are familiar with Devi Mahatmya (Saptashati, Vedas). There it is written, that only by the grace of the Devi one kan get "the knowledge, leading to the perfection", or Selfrealization. She is the one present evrywhere as her power Paramchaitanya. She is preasent in every human being in a form of hunger, thist, sleep, beauty, chitta, energy, shraddha etc. Our Kundalini is just a reflection of Her. She has incarnated on this Earth as Durga(slaighing the demons) Mataji pretends herself as if she is HALF GOD, GOD HEAD, DEVI, who has given these superior names to her???

Shri Mataji is Mahamaya. Did you expect her to ride around on a tiger? It is very easy to recognize her though, if one has an open mind and an open heart(just a little intuition) I am against to all the CHARLATANS,CHEATERS… MATAJI is the same.As she pretends to heal some people

My own mothwer used to have a stomach ulser, after practising Sahaja yoga not even a scar is left. I know personally several people who have got rid of canser  but she herself actually needs healing. As she is going around by arm chair on the wheeles.Why?

So that it wouldn’t be too easy for stupid people to get something precious, which that don’t deserve Tell me if she is honest, and if you know her very well. How MATAJI gets that much money to make journeys all over the world in order to make the commercials of her cult, if no money is collected????

Shri Mataji’s family is very prosperous. her husband used to be a Secretary General of the Indian-British Maritime organization at UN. I guess His pension is big enough to afford the trips(my parents in low travel as well, though they are very simple people) How she gets the money to spend for her TALKS in order to make her cult`s commercials in luxorious hotels????You have to give me SOLID explanations if you want to defend her! If you can not, please keep quite!

 Are you envious? Always be aware,please note that no one can deliver enlightenment to others.Enlightenment can happen by itself, not the help of others! ALL the POWER we need is within us, not anywhere else…

Do you mean Kundalini? She is our internal spiritual Mother, she is the mechanism, thanks to which Selfrealization happens. And she is absolutely obidient to the One whose reflection she is With best Wishes. PUMA

Olga

Response:

Yoga has its rules Why are so driven with this issue? Probably one of the most likely suspects: Jealousy, envy, etc Bicker, don`t be funny and disinformative,

I’m not; I’m being speculative.   No jealosy, no envy for such fake gurus,

No; not for the gurus, but rather for the success of their efforts. It is a duty for me and for everybody to warn people like yourselve…..

It is a duty for me to not allow anyone to presume to impose their beliefs on others, no matter how innocuous.  The fact is that yoga means many things to different people, so no one, not even you, get to tell others what is true yoga and "false" yoga.  That is a principle far greater than the trivial nomenclature purity that you seem to be pursuing. —

Question:

I recently quit with the help of a yoga teacher. Hi Lori! The hardest part of quitting is the emotional stuff that comes up as a result of craving. You feel like you are not getting your needs met and go into crisis mode. Yoga macro and micro stretching guided by a teacher in individual sessions (i am a beginner) have helped tremendously. – michael I overheard Shakti say… Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

– "[In 2029,] For reasons of political sensitivity, machine intelligences generally do not press the point of their superiority" – Ray Kurzweil www.eff.org, www.salon.com www.nisargadatta.net, www.realization.org/page/topics/nisargadatta.htm

Response:

and pranayama has nothing to do with healthy lungs.

Apart of course from the fact that Pranayama is the control of the subtle life-force through _breathing_. There is certainly more to pranayama than just breathing, but to say it has _nothing_ to do with healthy lungs displays rank ignorance of the way pranayama is actually taught by modern-day yoga teachers. AS http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/

Response:

Are you on drugs, man? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course I did, thousands of incarnations ago. I hope that you’ll follow my example and make a similar resolve at least before the end of your present incarnation. Dear brother Bramhan Atmananda You are too small a animal to talk about big words like incarnations, your state of consciousness is still well below muladhar chakra, i.e. you are still in animal like state. so don’t talk big ! Do you know the reason of my presense in this group? Its a responsibility of every yoga loving person to throw out idiots and wild people like from the group. that is what I am doing, I didn’t know it was and it is such a wonderful experience. thanks for the entertainment anyway.

Response:

No. You must make an inner resolve to quit. Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti Brother Bramhan

"Brother Bramhan"? Who’s that, simple illogic? have you made any of those resolves to improve your horrible animal tendencies

Of course I did, thousands of incarnations ago. I hope that you’ll follow my example and make a similar resolve at least before the end of your present incarnation.

Response:

Of course I did, thousands of incarnations ago. I hope that you’ll follow my example and make a similar resolve at least before the end of your present incarnation.

Dear brother Bramhan Atmananda You are too small a animal to talk about big words like incarnations, your state of consciousness is still well below muladhar chakra, i.e. you are still in animal like state. so don’t talk big ! Do you know the reason of my presense in this group? Its a responsibility of every yoga loving person to throw out idiots and wild people like from the group. that is what I am doing, I didn’t know it was and it is such a wonderful experience. thanks for the entertainment anyway.

Response:

No. You must make an inner resolve to quit. Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

Brother Bramhan have you made any of those resolves to improve your horrible animal tendencies using which you trouble all of the group? and all the time?

Response:

Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

Do a few deep stretches – particularly stretches that involve your legs and guts – several hours after you had your last cigarette. You will be astonished by becoming aware that you are exhaling smoke! … R e a l l y  smelly! By paying attention to it, in time, it will cause you enough disgust to make you stop. Then it will be turn for coffee. Shahin

Response:

No. You must make an inner resolve to quit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

Response:

[snip] pranayama has nothing to do with healthy lungs. danielle

Yet healthy lungs wouldn’t hurt…

Response:

Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

yoga isn’t meant for giving up any kind of adiction, but it can help. especially when you practice meditation you can get rid of it in a natural way. and pranayama has nothing to do with healthy lungs. danielle

Response:

You should have quit before starting. Yoga is about self control. If you eat a vegetarian diet and do healthy things you should be inspired to quit. But there is lots of shoulds out there. I suggest going to Borders Books and getting one of those books on quitting smoking. I can hear a groan now. The book won’t help/only you can stop smoking. What you do is every day you don’t stop or make some pre-agreed to progress force yourself to read say 10 minutes of this book on the evils of smoking. This is how to program your subconscious in a way conductive to quitting but if you don’t want to it is a waste. You have to break both the physical habit AND the psychological habit. I suggest deliberately not getting out of bed one day. Attempt to not smoking by sleeping as much as possible staying in your room the first day. Then you will have a record going and try and break it hour by hour by pre-occupying your mind with other things. Not letting any thoughts of having a smoke later sneak in. Everytime that happens tell yourself like a little child – no I don’t do that anymore that is something other people do. Then reward yourself for breaking records like eating something you like. To live is to breathe. To breathe better is to live better. The mind is like a kite. The breath is like the string. Your thoughts are influenced by your breathing. Deep breathing relieves stress. Thats why pregnant women are taught this. The endorphins help but deep rhythmical breathing makes your mind more tranquil. Less likly to jump at other people. During concentration breathing slows to almost nothing. By aerobic exercise the heart muscle is strenthened and your stamina increases. The heart pumps more efficiently requiring less beats in any given day. Also from running fast your breathing slows down automatically (after exercise). Slowing of the breath in this way is a trick of ‘matter over mind’. You use air as matter to control mind – slow the number of thoughts so you can concentrate easier. Also exercise removes waste products from the blood and oxygenates the blood and you feel better for it. Your metabolism is increased so food spends less time in your body. All foods are not the same. When you stick moss on a fire a tremendous billow of smoke results. Moss does not ‘burn cleanly’. Junk food and meat are like moss. The prana in fruits and vegtables is extracted in a much cleaner ‘burning’ process/there is less dross as a result of metabolizing fruits and vegtables. You don’t have a lump in your gut for hours and hours taking blood from your head for digestion weighting you down. For fast progress in meditation Sivananda recommends only milk and fruit for a few days when the urge to meditate arises. It goes a lot further than this but that requires a fasting discussion. Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

Response:

Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

Yoga helped me give up smoking. Soon after I first took up Yoga, some six years ago, I resolved one day to replace my addiction for nicotine with addiction to achieving excellence in Yoga. I have not touched a tab since, although I’m still working on the excellence in Yoga thing. Really, it occurred to me that I would have to give up smoking after taking up Yoga, as it seemed incompatible with the idea of pranayama to have a pair of unhealthy lungs. AS http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/

Response:

Does yoga help to give up smoking naturally? help appreciated. Regards, Shakti

Response:

Question:

Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

Don’t switch.  Connie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

I plateaus or two on the way is normal.  How much more do you want to lose?   I have hit a couple of two week plateaus on the way and then resumed wieght loss.   I think CAD is a good maintenance plan, but not likely to yield better weight loss than Atkins.

Response:

Which ever one you can do and stick with is the best choice for you. But I wouldn’t keep plan hopping to much, because its probably your body catching up to the great weight loss that you have had so far. Tinakaye 203/127/128 http://www.tinakaye.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

Stay with Atkins. I bought the CAD book a few weeks ago and tried it as I was looking for something that let you eat more carbs. I won’t boar anybody here with how many times I have gone out of control in the last week. Your cravings will be much less on Atkins, at least mine are. Went back myself  3 days ago and feel better already. Hope this helps some. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t switch.  Connie Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

I’ve just picked up another two books as well (Protein Power and Carbohydrate Addicts).  Why do you suggest not switching? Tess 170/147/125 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t switch.  Connie Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

Tess, Either way, do whatever plan works best for you.  As long as you stick to CAD and don’t use the reward meal as an excuse to pig out on sugar and other carby crap then it may work for you – just as it works for some others. ConnieMS 244/173.5/150 http://pages.ivillage.com/alcon70/conniems/ ASDL-C Low Carb Shindig – Sept. 14-16, 2001 St. Louis, MO To be added to the info/mailing list send your email addy to:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just picked up another two books as well (Protein Power and Carbohydrate Addicts).  Why do you suggest not switching? Tess 170/147/125 Don’t switch.  Connie Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs. My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

Thanks Connie.  Other places in this ng suggested reading up on this from every available angle and I’m just trying to cover my (almost skinny) ass. Tess 170/147/125 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tess, Either way, do whatever plan works best for you.  As long as you stick to CAD and don’t use the reward meal as an excuse to pig out on sugar and other carby crap then it may work for you – just as it works for some others. ConnieMS 244/173.5/150 http://pages.ivillage.com/alcon70/conniems/ ASDL-C Low Carb Shindig – Sept. 14-16, 2001 St. Louis, MO To be added to the info/mailing list send your email addy to: I’ve just picked up another two books as well (Protein Power and Carbohydrate Addicts).  Why do you suggest not switching? Tess 170/147/125 Don’t switch.  Connie Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs. My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

Agreed Tess !   Knowledge never hurt anyone.  The more you know about each plan the better off you are to make informed choices.  I’m currently working my way through Lyle’s book at the moment.  Plus have 3 more lined up behind that !  :-) ConnieMS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Connie.  Other places in this ng suggested reading up on this from every available angle and I’m just trying to cover my (almost skinny) ass. Tess 170/147/125 Tess, Either way, do whatever plan works best for you.  As long as you stick to CAD and don’t use the reward meal as an excuse to pig out on sugar and other carby crap then it may work for you – just as it works for some others. ConnieMS 244/173.5/150 http://pages.ivillage.com/alcon70/conniems/ ASDL-C Low Carb Shindig – Sept. 14-16, 2001 St. Louis, MO To be added to the info/mailing list send your email addy to: I’ve just picked up another two books as well (Protein Power and Carbohydrate Addicts).  Why do you suggest not switching? Tess 170/147/125 Don’t switch.  Connie Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs. My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

You have to choose the one that fits your lifestyle. CAD features 3 meals a day, *no* snacking, and bans artificial sweeteners on the grounds that the sweet taste will cause an insulin surge even without the carbs.  It’s actually very regimented.  There are also strict rules about the reward meal:  you may have anything you want, but only if you balance it (according to the guidelines in the book) and eat it within an hour.  I personally don’t have the discipline for it, but if it fits your lifestyle and you can stick to it, then it could be very effective. By the way, have you made sure you aren’t eating too much or too little (which will stall you but good), or overdoing it with cheese, cream, hidden carbs, etc.?  Are you exersizing? And the old standby:  are you measuring or trying on reference jeans? hth, Shar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

Thanks for your respone.  No, I’m not excercising (lazy).  But today I ordered the bun and thigh rocker.  You can do it so it’s like a cardio workout.  Maybe that will help ).  I haven’t quite made up my mind about switching yet.  But I appreciate everyone’s advice! Dee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have to choose the one that fits your lifestyle. CAD features 3 meals a day, *no* snacking, and bans artificial sweeteners on the grounds that the sweet taste will cause an insulin surge even without the carbs.  It’s actually very regimented.  There are also strict rules about the reward meal:  you may have anything you want, but only if you balance it (according to the guidelines in the book) and eat it within an hour.  I personally don’t have the discipline for it, but if it fits your lifestyle and you can stick to it, then it could be very effective. By the way, have you made sure you aren’t eating too much or too little (which will stall you but good), or overdoing it with cheese, cream, hidden carbs, etc.?  Are you exersizing? And the old standby:  are you measuring or trying on reference jeans? hth, Shar Hi all!  I have been on Atkins since 2/4/01 and have lost 17.5 lbs.  My body seems to have adjusted to this WOE and I can’t seem to lose any more.  I just bought the CAD book tonight at Wal-Mart.  I read on someone’s web site that she lost better with CAD.  Anyone have any comments on switching from Atkins to CAD? Thanks! Dee ;o)

Response:

i can’t decide if to follow CAD or Atkins. i suppose people who follow each or loyal to their program. i’d like a little input to sway my decision. thanx! pam

Response:

i can’t decide if to follow CAD or Atkins. i suppose people who follow each or loyal to their program. i’d like a little input to sway my decision. thanx! pam

Whichever way you decide, please read the Atkins book.  It contains far more information on how your body processes its intake than the CAD book.  Low Carb — which ever way you choose is going to take off the pounds.  I lost 70 low carbing before I read either of the books!!! — Diagnosed Type II Diabetes March 5 2001 Beating it with diet and exercise! 297/215/210 (to be revised lower) 58"/43"(!)/44" (already lower too!) Visit my FINALLY UPDATED website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv/ Irv Finkleman, Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Response:

Personally I think that atkins forces you to ween yourself from carb adiction MUCH faster and easier than CAD. Keeping your carb levels low will always help you to loose weight, but when you get to cheat, like with cad, it makes it easier to slip back into old ways. I have a saying, "Carbs beget Carbs" maybe not original, but I say it. When I start eating carbs, I just want more and more and more of them. Better for me to just say no in the first place and never fall down that slippery slope.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i can’t decide if to follow CAD or Atkins. i suppose people who follow each or loyal to their program. i’d like a little input to sway my decision. thanx! pam

Response:

i can’t decide if to follow CAD or Atkins. i suppose people who follow each or loyal to their program. i’d like a little input to sway my decision. thanx!

I haven’t read the recent revisions of either plan, but have the old CAD book and both the original Atkins book and the 1995 version. The main differences are that Atkins allows between-meal snacking and CAD does not.   CAD allows some carby and even sugary food once a day in a balanced meal, and almost no carbs the rest of the day.  Atkins allows very small amounts of carb spread out throughout the day. Some people in the group have been able to lose weight with CAD, while others found it more suitable as a maintenance plan, or as something to use for a controlled-carb day off from their regular plan.  Some people find that the CAD Reward Meal sets off carb cravings that are better held in check by staying on Atkins’ plan. One of the lowcarb "elders," who doesn’t post to the group very often any more, lost her first 100 pounds on CAD, and then after a stall of many months, switched to Atkins’ plan to lose an additional 70 pounds.  Her story and pictures can be found at    http://www.ellaxiak.cjb.net I am primarily on Atkins maintenance (ranging from about 40g to 80g carbs per day), but often use a CAD style reward meal for one meal on the weekend, or as a way to handle holidays and special occasions. I do find that it sets off some cravings, though, which I just steel myself to ignore. 168/125/125  5 years: LC since 2/18/97 maintaining since 3/17/99 —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

Question:

Philip, maybe those meds don’t work for you but they do for others. I suggested staying on the zanax, but when you can’t you have to start looking

Response:

Philip, maybe those meds don’t work for you but they do for others. I suggested staying on the zanax, but when you can’t you have to start looking

I have’t tried Neurontin or Vistaril myself. As I said there is no statistical and hardly any clinical evidence that I know of thay they work as stand alone meds for anx/pan. There may always be exceptions to every rule of course and you are right that what works for one doesn’t have to work for someone else and vice versa. But when it comes to recommending meds I believe the best thing to do is to first talk about tried and true meds like benzos and AD’s. I also feel that if your doctor won’t prescribe Xanax or any other benzo the thing to do is switch doctors, not stop medciation that helps.   Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Philip, maybe those meds don’t work for you but they do for others. I suggested staying on the zanax, but when you can’t you have to start looking I have’t tried Neurontin or Vistaril myself. As I said there is no statistical and hardly any clinical evidence that I know of thay they work as stand alone meds for anx/pan. There may always be exceptions to every rule of course and you are right that what works for one doesn’t have to work for someone else and vice versa. But when it comes to recommending meds I believe the best thing to do is to first talk about tried and true meds like benzos and AD’s. I also feel that if your doctor won’t prescribe Xanax or any other benzo the thing to do is switch doctors, not stop medciation that helps. Philip

I was on Vistaril from ages 2-9.  It was to counteract hyperactivity caused by Phenobarbitol.  In my experience, it DID NOT help with anxiety–I would say it exacerbated it or caused it.  I can recall "freaking out" on many occasions while on those meds.  It was supposed to sedate me, which I suppose it did, but I was still an extremely anxious, high-strung child inside. Just my experience.  I wouldn’t touch the stuff with a ten foot pole. Dawn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

it seems rather paradoxical to first prescribe it, wait till you are *addicted* (as he seems to think) and then make you stop it.

This is precisely what a quack physician in Texas did for years, and then would funnel them into his "psych-ward"  for treatment. The old bastard died some years ago a milionaire – (several times over). – K

Response:

Yes I would definitly call the doctor. I had a bad experience on nerotin, but have also seen other people do fine on it. It’s a mood stabilizer. Ask about the visteral. I don’t see why they would have a problem with it. It’s non addictive, and definitly worth a shot.It should be a high dosage anywhere from 100 to 200 mgs. If you take 200 which I would suggest, hopefully it will help. I feel your pain…….                       Anne

Response:

"geno" wrote Hello, can someone tell me a bit more about this barbituate. My doc took me off xanax which i was taking 1mg for 2 yrs, and put me on phenobarb, 60mg every 3 hours. ITs not helping like benzos

Phenobarbitol is an older drug that was used to treat anxiety several years ago. It’s not the best choice as far as I know. – K

Response:

Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med

you mean gabenergic-no it isn’t barbs have a direct effect on cerebral cortex, reticular activating system,. and a lesser effect on cerbeller, vestibular and spinal systems-it stabilizes cell membranes elevates the excitatory threshold and allows a longer recovery from exititory stimuli is also prolonged-the drug inhibits oxidative phosphorylation plus activating adenosine triphosphatase-so its arousal inhibition is different then benzos. The dose of pheno is approx 30-60mg per dose 2-3 times per day if needed-the drug has antianxiety properties, sedating properties analgesic and hypnotic properties-it has been shown to be highly effective in clinical management of epilepsy-it is one of a very large body of meds that are classified in duration of action but each has its own signature-they were used and still are to some extent as premediaction prior to surgery, or anesthesia inlcuding as a sole anesthetic agent alone, for seizure disorders, for dicontinuation syndromes from addictive or dependency instituting drugs like alcohol or benzos, as sleeping meds, general sedative medication etc… they are effective for many scenarios but they act differently in reducing anxiety then benzos, and as such may not alleviate the type of somatic or psychic anxiety you manifest-you could try using more potent agents in this class but be forwarned that long term use does promote a tolerance response meaning you will need larger and larger doses which is not parrelel with the mean leathal dose, which means toxicity and poisoning is possible also the discontinuation potential of this class is more potent then benzos, they may have a hangover type effect and are used as  the prototypical model used for benzo and other tranquilizer withdrawl syndromes. sedatives are broken down into 4 catagories 1. ethane derivatives-paraldehyde, ethyl alcohol, choral hydrate and derivatives, bromethol 2. barbiturates 3. non barbiturate hypnotics and sedatives (qualudes comes to mind) 4. tranquilizers (minor and major) the other point is if this med were to work, you would see it work within 24 hours-for the type of anxiety most panic sufferers have this drug would so little except put you to sleep-for gad or chronic worry they sometimes work better then benzos since they also have a mild euphoric effect-but then have the abovementioned drawbacks so they are rarely used for longer then a week or two and usually in conjunction with a benzo like xanax. There is anecdotal evidence that morphine and other opiates are good anxiolytics too, they are also sometimes rarely used (legally that is) but for some, they are the only thing that works, so for them their anxiety stems from endorphine issues LM

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That won’t take the place of your zanax. Benzos are much stronger which you probably know. Some people with severe anxiety can only take the bezos because that it all that works. I happen to be one of those people. I take 4mgs of klonopin a day. I mix it with visteral, and am seeing that I don’t need it as much. You should try visteral, about 200mgs a day. See if this helps I think hes trying to get me off benzos at least for a while, then maybe switch me to another "lighter or longer acting benzo, less addicting. I dont have panic on pheno, but feel uneasy and wrestless. Im taking 60-90mg every 4 hrs as needed, but dont ever feel it kick in. it took like 3 days to even feel a little calmer.  anyway, should i call my doc and say, listen this pheno isnt doing the trick, im still on edge? Myabe this visteral or neronitin will help? IS 60 mg of pheno every 4 hrs, total about 300mg a day alot??? geno

IMO you should switch doctors and stay on Xanax. It’s a very effective and safe med and depdence is not the same as adiction. Moreover it seems rather paradoxical to first prescribe it, wait till you are *addicted* (as he seems to think) and then make you stop it. Cruel, eh? Vistaril and Neurontin don’t do squat for anx/pan, they are *no* alternative for Xanax. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

1mg of xanax is not a big dose and it was working well and he took you off. Makes no sense to me.  I would see your doc ASAP and ask him WHY?  If he does not give you a satisfactory answer then it is time to get a new doc. People suffering from anxiety have to have complete trust in their docs or the docs can become cause for anxiety.   Take some control back by confronting your doc on this point.   Charlie Tuna

Response:

That won’t take the place of your zanax. Benzos are much stronger which you probably know. Some people with severe anxiety can only take the bezos because that it all that works. I happen to be one of those people. I take 4mgs of klonopin a day. I mix it with visteral, and am seeing that I don’t need it as much. You should try visteral, about 200mgs a day. See if this helps

 I think hes trying to get me off benzos at least for a while, then maybe switch me to another "lighter or longer acting benzo, less addicting. I dont have panic on pheno, but feel uneasy and wrestless. Im taking 60-90mg every 4 hrs as needed, but dont ever feel it kick in. it took like 3 days to even feel a little calmer.   anyway, should i call my doc and say, listen this pheno isnt doing the trick, im still on edge? Myabe this visteral or neronitin will help? IS 60 mg of pheno every 4 hrs, total about 300mg a day alot??? geno

Response:

I’d get stone cold faced and ask the pdoc why he switched you from a proven anxiolytic  to an anti- seizure  med, and what was wrong with 2 years of success on a Benzo? Sue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med you mean gabenergic-no it isn’t LM According to the American Psychiatric Press Textbook of Psychopharmacology, Schatzberg & Nemeroff, barbiturates allosterically modulate the GABA-A receptor complex at a site different from the benzodiazepine site. At higher concentrations barbs increase chloride conductance even in the absence of GABA, an effect that contributes to their lethal potential. Phenobarb is weak in this respect and therefore has a higher theraputic index. Barbs also have effects other than through the GABA-A receptor. Barbs at low doses depress voltage-dependent calcium currents in isolated hippocampal neurons and also inhibit the AMPA subtype of glutamate receptors. At anesthetic doses, voltage-dependent sodium and potassium channels are also inhibited. Chip   Well thich is it gabaergenic or not. ANyway, my doc has me on 60mg every 4 hrs. It really was not helping so he upped it to 90mg every 40 hrs. I felt sorta tired bit calmer, not like benzos. What should i tell my doc. If i mention benzos, he may think def im an addict. He has me off them for 2 weeks now. MMMM. Ill give it a few more days. If no luck, illl call him and say pheno is not working well, i dont feel confortable. ANy suggesstions. ps i was on like 1mg a day of xanax for 2 yrs/. Taken off stone cold right to pheno. g

Response:

That won’t take the place of your zanax. Benzos are much stronger which you probably know. Some people with severe anxiety can only take the bezos because that it all that works. I happen to be one of those people. I take 4mgs of klonopin a day. I mix it with visteral, and am seeing that I don’t need it as much. You should try visteral, about 200mgs a day. See if this helps

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med you mean gabenergic-no it isn’t LM According to the American Psychiatric Press Textbook of Psychopharmacology, Schatzberg & Nemeroff, barbiturates allosterically modulate the GABA-A receptor complex at a site different from the benzodiazepine site. At higher concentrations barbs increase chloride conductance even in the absence of GABA, an effect that contributes to their lethal potential. Phenobarb is weak in this respect and therefore has a higher theraputic index. Barbs also have effects other than through the GABA-A receptor. Barbs at low doses depress voltage-dependent calcium currents in isolated hippocampal neurons and also inhibit the AMPA subtype of glutamate receptors. At anesthetic doses, voltage-dependent sodium and potassium channels are also inhibited. Chip

  Well thich is it gabaergenic or not. ANyway, my doc has me on 60mg every 4 hrs. It really was not helping so he upped it to 90mg every 40 hrs. I felt sorta tired bit calmer, not like benzos. What should i tell my doc. If i mention benzos, he may think def im an addict. He has me off them for 2 weeks now. MMMM. Ill give it a few more days. If no luck, illl call him and say pheno is not working well, i dont feel confortable. ANy suggesstions. ps i was on like 1mg a day of xanax for 2 yrs/. Taken off stone cold right to pheno. g

Response:

I only used (prescribed) Quaaludes briefly during the early 70’s. I think they would be great for many anxiety related disorders- nobody would care, or notice, if they had the disorders or not! Boyd

: Whats up with this stuff. is : it gabaernic med : : you mean gabenergic-no it isn’t barbs have a direct effect on cerebral cortex, : reticular activating system,. and a lesser effect on cerbeller, vestibular and : spinal systems-it stabilizes cell membranes elevates the excitatory threshold : and allows a longer recovery from exititory stimuli is also prolonged-the drug : inhibits oxidative phosphorylation plus activating adenosine triphosphatase-so : its arousal inhibition is different then benzos. The dose of pheno is approx : 30-60mg per dose 2-3 times per day if needed-the drug has antianxiety : properties, sedating properties analgesic and hypnotic properties-it has been : shown to be highly effective in clinical management of epilepsy-it is one of a : very large body of meds that are classified in duration of action but each has : its own signature-they were used and still are to some extent as premediaction : prior to surgery, or anesthesia inlcuding as a sole anesthetic agent alone, for : seizure disorders, for dicontinuation syndromes from addictive or dependency : instituting drugs like alcohol or benzos, as sleeping meds, general sedative : medication etc… : : they are effective for many scenarios but they act differently in reducing : anxiety then benzos, and as such may not alleviate the type of somatic or : psychic anxiety you manifest-you could try using more potent agents in this : class but be forwarned that long term use does promote a tolerance response : meaning you will need larger and larger doses which is not parrelel with the : mean leathal dose, which means toxicity and poisoning is possible also the : discontinuation potential of this class is more potent then benzos, they may : have a hangover type effect and are used as  the prototypical model used for : benzo and other tranquilizer withdrawl syndromes. : : sedatives are broken down into 4 catagories : 1. ethane derivatives-paraldehyde, ethyl alcohol, choral hydrate and : derivatives, bromethol : 2. barbiturates : 3. non barbiturate hypnotics and sedatives (qualudes comes to mind) : 4. tranquilizers (minor and major) : : the other point is if this med were to work, you would see it work within 24 : hours-for the type of anxiety most panic sufferers have this drug would so : little except put you to sleep-for gad or chronic worry they sometimes work : better then benzos since they also have a mild euphoric effect-but then have : the abovementioned drawbacks so they are rarely used for longer then a week or : two and usually in conjunction with a benzo like xanax. There is anecdotal : evidence that morphine and other opiates are good anxiolytics too, they are : also sometimes rarely used (legally that is) but for some, they are the only : thing that works, so for them their anxiety stems from endorphine issues : : LM

Response:

Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med you mean gabenergic-no it isn’t LM

According to the American Psychiatric Press Textbook of Psychopharmacology, Schatzberg & Nemeroff, barbiturates allosterically modulate the GABA-A receptor complex at a site different from the benzodiazepine site. At higher concentrations barbs increase chloride conductance even in the absence of GABA, an effect that contributes to their lethal potential. Phenobarb is weak in this respect and therefore has a higher theraputic index. Barbs also have effects other than through the GABA-A receptor. Barbs at low doses depress voltage-dependent calcium currents in isolated hippocampal neurons and also inhibit the AMPA subtype of glutamate receptors. At anesthetic doses, voltage-dependent sodium and potassium channels are also inhibited. Chip

Response:

Hello, can someone tell me a bit more about this barbituate. My doc took me off xanax which i was taking 1mg for 2 yrs, and put me on phenobarb, 60mg every 3 hours. ITs not helping like benzos. I uped it to 90mg and still not the effect i want. Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med geno

Barbiturates were the meds benzos were the much more effective sucessors of with also fewer side effects. If Xanax helped you skip the phenobarbital and go back to the Xanax, this is very weird prescribing. IMO. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hello, can someone tell me a bit more about this barbituate. My doc took me off xanax which i was taking 1mg for 2 yrs, and put me on phenobarb, 60mg every 3 hours. ITs not helping like benzos. I uped it to 90mg and still not the effect i want. Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med geno It’s a med that was replaced by the safer and more effective benzos for treatment of anxiety about 40 years ago. Chip

I agree with Chip!!  Talk to your doc about different meds or get a new one. Charlie Tuna

Response:

Hello, can someone tell me a bit more about this barbituate. My doc took me off xanax which i was taking 1mg for 2 yrs, and put me on phenobarb, 60mg every 3 hours. ITs not helping like benzos. I uped it to 90mg and still not the effect i want. Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med geno

Response:

Hello, can someone tell me a bit more about this barbituate. My doc took me off xanax which i was taking 1mg for 2 yrs, and put me on phenobarb, 60mg every 3 hours. ITs not helping like benzos. I uped it to 90mg and still not the effect i want. Whats up with this stuff. is it gabaernic med geno

It’s a med that was replaced by the safer and more effective benzos for treatment of anxiety about 40 years ago. Chip

Response:

Question:

Ahem, don’t you know it’s NEVER complete! Rule: you can NEVER own too much bass gear! Uh-oh. How would you recommend breaking this news to my significant other? I’ve been telling her for weeks that I’m "just about there".

Heh, the trick is you keep telling her you are "just about there"…But of course "there" NEVER arrives! PS. Still using the old amp, hmmm? Perhaps a little more "headroom" is in order… ducking and running for cover! Uh, well sort of. I’m no longer using the Bassman 60, but I had a Mackie 1400i that we used for monitor speakers. Since the lead player just got a deal on a used Mackie 1200 amp, I decided to have his amp power the monitors and I re-allocated my 1400 for use in my bass rig. So I’ve gone from 60 watts to a potential max of 1400 watts. I realize that this would not qualify as a true ‘upsizing’ in many circles, but being a novice player, I have to crawl before I can run

Ah yes. I remember when I went from the 60 watt combo up into the kilowatt range.  Don’t you just love that sense of gut-thumping power?  Gads, no wonder you’ve got G.A.S.!  But while I’m trying to feed your adiction, I’m obviously WAY behind the curve! Went and saw your pictures. Nice start on a collection of gear! But I’d note (ahem) that your rack still does have a few empty spaces in it! You know what you have to do! Benj — SPAM-Guard!  Remove .user (if present) to email me!

Response:

of gear! But I’d note (ahem) that your rack still does have a few empty spaces in it!

No problem. I called Gator before purchasing and they have assured me all their empty spaces fill up pretty quickly. They also said they are working on a 212 RU case just for bass players. The unit will have 106 rack units in the front and 106 in back with a walk-in wiring closet in between…

Response:

Ahem, don’t you know it’s NEVER complete! Rule: you can NEVER own too much bass gear!

Uh-oh. How would you recommend breaking this news to my significant other? I’ve been telling her for weeks that I’m "just about there". PS. Still using the old amp, hmmm? Perhaps a little more "headroom" is in order… ducking and running for cover!

Uh, well sort of. I’m no longer using the Bassman 60, but I had a Mackie 1400i that we used for monitor speakers. Since the lead player just got a deal on a used Mackie 1200 amp, I decided to have his amp power the monitors and I re-allocated my 1400 for use in my bass rig. So I’ve gone from 60 watts to a potential max of 1400 watts. I realize that this would not qualify as a true ‘upsizing’ in many circles, but being a novice player, I have to crawl before I can run

Response:

It’s not complete yet, I’ve got a Korg DTR1 coming this week. Over the next couple of months, I’ll be adding a SansAmp RBI, possibly a Line6 Bass POD, a wireless, and maybe an EQ.

Ahem, don’t you know it’s NEVER complete! Rule: you can NEVER own too much bass gear! My better half is becoming increasingly concerned that I’m hanging around with the wrong influences, but I keep telling her not to worry, it’s a real GAS…..

Don’t worry, if asked, we will all deny having anything to do with it! Benj PS. Still using the old amp, hmmm? Perhaps a little more "headroom" is in order… ducking and running for cover! — SPAM-Guard!  Remove .user (if present) to email me!

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Heeehee… Come to the dark side…and what I’ve seen of your gear list, you’ve just scratched the surface… — <Remember, wherever you go…there you are.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I first came to this group a few months ago, I owned an Ovation 4-string acoustic and a Fender Bassman 60 amp. But during my time here, I have taken many of your suggestions to heart and as a result, contacted a severe case of GAS. New P-Bass, new earplugs, new tuner, new speakers, old amp (but put to a new purpose), new speaker cabinets, and so on. Anyway, I’ve been building my new rig. It’s not complete yet but I thought you might like a look at the progress. Here’s 5 pictures:          http://www.nemec.com/mb/ By the way, running the SansAmp into the Alesis Studio 12R gives an excellent +4dBu signal to the Mackie 1400i and sounds great with the pair of Aguilar GS-112s. I couldn’t be happier. It’s not complete yet, I’ve got a Korg DTR1 coming this week. Over the next couple of months, I’ll be adding a SansAmp RBI, possibly a Line6 Bass POD, a wireless, and maybe an EQ. My better half is becoming increasingly concerned that I’m hanging around with the wrong influences, but I keep telling her not to worry, it’s a real GAS….. Thanks, MB

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When I first came to this group a few months ago, I owned an Ovation 4-string acoustic and a Fender Bassman 60 amp. But during my time here, I have taken many of your suggestions to heart and as a result, contacted a severe case of GAS. New P-Bass, new earplugs, new tuner, new speakers, old amp (but put to a new purpose), new speaker cabinets, and so on.

Um yeah.   That’s the downside.  This group is a wonderful learning tool, but also way too good for the manufacturers.  :-) It’s not complete yet, I’ve got a Korg DTR1 coming this week. Over the next couple of months, I’ll be adding a SansAmp RBI, possibly a Line6 Bass POD, a wireless, and maybe an EQ. My better half is becoming increasingly concerned that I’m hanging around with the wrong influences, but I keep telling her not to worry, it’s a real GAS…..

Oof.  Your shopping list sez you got it alright.  Enjoy!   Heck, it’s good for the economy. —   /"  ASCII Ribbon Campaign                | Todd H   /                                       | http://www.toddh.net/    X   Promoting good netiquette            | http://triplethreatband.com/   /  http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/     | "4 lines suffice."

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When I first came to this group a few months ago, I owned an Ovation 4-string acoustic and a Fender Bassman 60 amp. But during my time here, I have taken many of your suggestions to heart and as a result, contacted a severe case of GAS. New P-Bass, new earplugs, new tuner, new speakers, old amp (but put to a new purpose), new speaker cabinets, and so on. Anyway, I’ve been building my new rig. It’s not complete yet but I thought you might like a look at the progress. Here’s 5 pictures:          http://www.nemec.com/mb/ By the way, running the SansAmp into the Alesis Studio 12R gives an excellent +4dBu signal to the Mackie 1400i and sounds great with the pair of Aguilar GS-112s. I couldn’t be happier. It’s not complete yet, I’ve got a Korg DTR1 coming this week. Over the next couple of months, I’ll be adding a SansAmp RBI, possibly a Line6 Bass POD, a wireless, and maybe an EQ. My better half is becoming increasingly concerned that I’m hanging around with the wrong influences, but I keep telling her not to worry, it’s a real GAS….. Thanks, MB

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