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WSJ PAGE ONE Life and Death As Inmates Age, A Prison Carpenter Builds More Coffins The rise of lengthy, mandatory sentences and a nationwide tough-on-crime attitude has resulted in a booming prison population — 2.1 million last June, compared with 501,886 in 1980 —

This would all be great if we didn’t have a half million wetback criminals coming to take their place in the population every few months.

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This is quite a moving article.  It is sad to think of all those lonely, wasted lives.

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At Angola, 97% of inmates now die in prison, up from about 80% a decade ago. "I’ll probably end up making my own," he says.

Angola is not typical, and the vast majority of inmates are released eventually, not dead. Prison space is so scarce that most prisons are releasing unhealthy inmates as soon as they become unhealthy; because they don’t want to pay the elevated health care costs of senior inmates.

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This is quite a moving article.  It is sad to think of all those lonely, wasted lives.

   That’ll teach ‘em not to smoke marijuana.

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Angola got a long way to catch up to the USA as the "prison capital of the world".  The US long ago passed Russia and China in per-capita incarcerees.

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WSJ PAGE ONE Life and Death As Inmates Age, A Prison Carpenter Builds More Coffins Funerals Gain in Importance At Penitentiary Few Leave; Rise of Longer Sentences Mr. Bone Mans the Hearse By GARY FIELDS Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL May 18, 2005; Page A1 TUNICA, La. — At the Angola state penitentiary here, Richard Leggett, a yellow pencil tucked behind his right ear, put the molding on his latest creation: a 7-foot coffin. He worked with some urgency, sewing and stapling the white bedding inside. He always likes to keep three coffins in stock, so he doesn’t run out. Half a mile away, one of his other hand-made caskets — birch and pine, stained a rich brown hue — was being laid into the ground at the prison cemetery. It held the body of a 57-year-old fellow inmate, imprisoned since the 1970s for killing a 13-year-old girl. As the prison’s coffin maker, Mr. Leggett, 53 years old, has been busy. The prison has needed one or two of his caskets in each of the last five weeks. At Angola, 97% of inmates now die in prison, up from about 80% a decade ago. "I’ll probably end up making my own," he says. The rise of lengthy, mandatory sentences and a nationwide tough-on-crime attitude has resulted in a booming prison population — 2.1 million last June, compared with 501,886 in 1980 — and an aging one. The number of inmates dying from natural causes rose to 2,700 in 2002 from 799 in 1982, according to the U.S. Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics. Inmates often arrive at prison in the physical condition of someone 10 years to 15 years older because of the lack of health care they received while free, according to the American Correctional Association, a group of corrections officials. Chronic illnesses such as HIV, hepatitis and asthma are prevalent among prisoners, as are histories of alcohol and drug abuse, making them more likely to die earlier than normal. Texas, which had 43 burials in 1975, is burying about 100 prisoners a year now, at a cost of $1,500 each. Oregon has contracted with local funeral homes to cremate unclaimed deceased inmates and store the ashes. The cost is about $432 per cremation. At Angola, funerals are elaborate affairs, with hand-made coffins pulled to graves by horse-drawn carriages, in rites conducted almost entirely by inmates. Warden Burl Cain believes such services are a stabilizing influence, keeping inmates busy and offering purpose to those who have no hope of leaving alive. "A man wants to be productive, even the ones here," he says. Once known as the bloodiest prison in America, inmates at Angola used to fashion weapons from innocuous items — such as toothbrushes and towels — to maim and kill. A murder a month was considered normal. Today, though, it isn’t the Angola of "Dead Man Walking" and "Monster’s Ball," two movies filmed here. Now, it’s an older Angola, and death often comes from natural causes. Last year, 29 inmates at Angola died of natural causes, up from six in 1984, even though the population has stayed the same at about 5,100. This year, 23 have died already, none from inmate-on-inmate violence. The prison lost its oldest inmate earlier this year, a 95-year-old, who had been in and out of prison since Harry Truman was president. During the last decade, there have been only four prison murders at Angola. Some inmates attribute that to what they call "criminal menopause" — meaning when they hit a certain age, their violent natures dissipate. They also credit the warden, a former teacher who says he came to corrections because high-school students were too unruly. To deal with its aging population, over 500 inmates at Angola have been trained to perform CPR and there is a hospice here for those who are in the final stages of terminal illnesses. And Warden Cain has created a funeral industry, of which Mr. Leggett’s coffin-making is a primary piece. Other inmates make shrouds for the caskets and plan services. Angola gets society’s most serious offenders — child molesters, murderers and rapists. Two years ago, the prison stopped accepting anyone with a sentence of less than 50 years, meaning few will ever leave. "A couple of decades after I got here, people actually got out. We used to have call-out every workday where three or four would be called out; they were going home," says Douglas Dennis, 69, who arrived here in 1957 and is serving a double life sentence for killing two prisoners in fights. He is now a writer for the Angolite, an award-winning prison publication whose death listings are scoured by the inmates. Now, "they might as well have welded the doors shut." About half of those of who die at Angola are buried on the prison’s grounds because inmates have lost touch with their families and have no one to collect the remains. "Even your bones don’t get a second chance to get out," says Mr. Dennis, the prison’s unofficial historian. The Mississippi River forms three of the institution’s four borders and the Tunica Hills, an area of snakes, trees and wild animals, is the fourth. Established as a prison in 1880, Angola gets its name from the plantation that preceded it, which in turn was named for the area of Africa where most of its slaves had come from. Except for the occasional vehicle, there is no mechanical noise. During the day, groups of inmates carrying hoes, shovels and sling blades head to fields where they grow four million pounds of produce, ranging from corn to wheat, each year. At night, only lights from the various cell blocks on the 18,000-acre compound dot the darkness. The prison grounds are larger than the island of Manhattan. When there are violent incidents and attempted escapes, they are dealt with swiftly. Offenders are put into Cellblock J, where they remain in 6-by-8 cells, 23 hours a day, for a minimum of six months. They aren’t allowed to make telephone calls, smoke or have visitors. At Angola, "life means life," says Mr. Cain, 62, the short, white-haired warden, who occasionally rides his Harley-Davidson down the 20-mile asphalt highway that dead-ends at the prison’s gates. He has mixed feelings about his elderly inmates. "Prison shouldn’t be a place for dying old men," he says. "It should be a place for predators." For years, inmates were buried in flimsy coffins that resembled shipping crates, each costing anywhere from $650 to $900. In June 1995, the prison was preparing to bury Joseph Siegel, a 69-year-old prisoner who had been convicted in 1971 for burglary and murdering a state senator. Inmate mourners join a fellow prisoner’s funeral procession. As the inmates lifted Mr. Siegel’s coffin to lay into the freshly dug grave, his body fell through the bottom of the casket. They carefully laid the coffin over the body and started to shovel dirt over the coffin. The lid then caved in. Warden Cain, then only in his first year on the job, was disgusted. "Once a man dies, his sentence is complete and there should be dignity in the passing," he says. He asked some inmates, including Eugene Redwine, who had committed the murder with Mr. Siegel and was known for his carpentry skills, whether they could build a coffin. The inmates agreed, making a coffin in two weeks at a cost of $250, considerably less than the prison had been paying — and a much higher quality. Mr. Leggett, now the principal coffin maker here, has been to only one funeral in his 34 years at Angola. It was after the March 2003 death of his mentor and predecessor, Mr. Redwine. He sat on the front row in the chapel inside the hospice, the area reserved for family. There was no one else there for the 74-year-old man. Mr. Leggett says his mentor taught him the importance of doing his job well. "He said, ‘Give it your best effort. If you’re going to do something, give it your best.’ He instilled that in me." The two met after Mr. Leggett, who came to prison as a teenager, had been inside a two-man cell for six years. Mr. Redwine, nearly twice Mr. Leggett’s age, started teaching the younger inmate about carpentry. Mr. Leggett took to it and began reading everything he could. The two became skilled carpenters, making furniture, rocking chairs, and toys, most of which went to the staff. Now there’s little that Mr. Leggett can’t make. All he needs is a picture or a drawing. Cabinets, dressers, and potato bins are all in his repertoire. Most items are used at the prison, and a few are sold. He earns the prison’s top wage — 20 cents an hour — giving him some spending money for incidentals. He enjoys admiring his finished products, especially the coffins. "If you’d seen what they were buried in before, you’d understand," he says. Nicknamed "Grasshopper" in his early days here because he was skinny with long limbs, he killed a man and a woman on May 29, 1971, near Amite, La., as he robbed their store. When asked how he remembers the exact date, he spits tobacco juice on the ground, and replies: "Why would I remember it? That’s something that weighs on your mind. I have a lot of regrets." Today, Mr. Leggett is a heavyset man with thick glasses, a bad heart valve and diabetes. Because he’s an inmate trustee — which means he’s a low risk for behavior violations — he isn’t under constant guard and lives with the other trustees in a cellblock reserved for them. A loner, Mr. Leggett spends most of his time in the carpentry shop, working with two assistants, meticulously going over every detail. "You never can tell," he says, standing near one of the oblong boxes, "when one of them is going to be yours." Mr. Leggett has lost touch with most of his relatives and the one he can locate, his son, is serving 20 years in prison in Texas. "I can’t go see him and he can’t come see me," he says. It takes him a week to produce a coffin, although he once built one on special order for an oversized inmate in two days. He worked 36 hours straight trying to meet the state requirement that inmates who die of natural causes be buried quickly … read more »

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Go fuck yourself.. No, let’s answer the moron:   Bush – 0   Kerry – 10 ABC poll shows Bush gained a point over Kerry after the debate, so you can’t even begin to count.  Big surprise.   on a scale of 0 to 10   How did this IDIOT ever become president??? By getting more electoral votes than Gore stupid.  That’s how the system works.   He can’t even speak in public!!! Funny.  He did well enough to gain a point on Kerry idiot.   Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain??? You have him confused with yourself here.   It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is??? No do you?  He ain’t in the US nor have there been any more attacks here since 9/11 which is fine with me.  Let him rot in a cave in Pakistan, which is where everybody but Kerry knows he is, Kerry thinking he is in Afghanistan.  Probably doesn’t know the difference between the two.   Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq! Further hint:  he ain’t in Afghanistan where Kerry thinks he is either.

He’s in Iran, betcha and I’ll betcha Kerry knows that, too. Kerry is a US Senator and has access to the same Intelligence Reports Bush has. Bush thinks Iran is a golf course in Floriduh.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? I’m watching it now.  I’m watching Bush struggle answering a question.  He’s sweating bullets.  He’s giving muddled answers. He appears weak, and is reaching for answers.  He sounds exasperated while answering questions when he realizes he’s giving muddled answers. He’s giving joe-six-pack, water-cooler style answers to questions. His vocabulary is 10′th grade, and his prounounciation is 6′th grade. He gives "visionary" or passionate answers to questions – not logical, constructive, concrete answers. I wouldn’t trust Bush to run a PTA meeting coherently, let alone a country. Right genius.  So you think Kerry who says that there are too few troops in Iraq to do the job to secure the borders BUT would have the troops pulled out is coherent huh?  You’re just a dumbshit that had what passes for a mind made up before it all started. because Kerry was just pure bullshit.  And an ABC poll just taken proved it, as the number of people after the debate that said they would vote for Bush over Kerry just went up by 1% which proves you have no grasp of reality whatsoever so why should you see it in anyone else?

All Bush did was give tons of rhetoric. He must have mentioned TERRORISTS,FREEDOM,DEMOCRACY a million times. I am surprised he didn’t use MISSION ACCOMPLISHED  and BRING IT ON. If and when there is an election in Iraq what will Bush do when the IRAQ DEMOCRACTIC ELECTIONS elect a theocracy?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President. Shirley you jest!  Kerry looked (and sounded) presidential, regal, totally in command.  Bush fumbled like a drunk 16 year old trying to untie the bra of the first girl he’s ever been with. Well he totally lost the support of the allies in Iraq, by saying there weren’t any. Whilst saying he would solve the future of Iraq by getting more allies. That was simply idiotic. They both were.

I couldn’t agree more.  You are just dealing with a normal brainless anti-Bush idiotlogue.  As opposed to a normal brainless Bush idiotlogue so your efforts are futile, but you point is entirely valid.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? I’m watching it now.  I’m watching Bush struggle answering a question.  He’s sweating bullets.  He’s giving muddled answers. He appears weak, and is reaching for answers.  He sounds exasperated while answering questions when he realizes he’s giving muddled answers. He’s giving joe-six-pack, water-cooler style answers to questions. His vocabulary is 10′th grade, and his prounounciation is 6′th grade. He gives "visionary" or passionate answers to questions – not logical, constructive, concrete answers. I wouldn’t trust Bush to run a PTA meeting coherently, let alone a country. The last question was on North Korea and China, and Bush just statred to

talk about Iran. Talk about illogical- it’s schizoid.

Why did Bush call Kim Il Chung, Kim Chumb Ill?  Does Bush know where Korea and China are?

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As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President. Are these really the best two candidates that America can come up with ?

Well, with Prime Minister Blair, Bush’s poodle, you don’t have too much to gloat about, eh mate?

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  typed: Kerry = Style but no content Bush = Content but no style They  both have their problems, but I’ll take content over style.

indeed…a solid summary… regards… — web site at www.abelard.org – news and comment service, logic,     energy, education, politics, etc 850,000 document calls yearly   all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry   the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.   good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words                     only when it’s funny — roger rabbit

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As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President. Shirley you jest!  Kerry looked (and sounded) presidential, regal, totally in command.  Bush fumbled like a drunk 16 year old trying to untie the bra of the first girl he’s ever been with.

Presidential?  Regal?  Totally in command?  HAHAHAHAHA!  Nodding on the screen all while Bush was making points against him making it look like he agreed with Bush’s points?  Babbling about the borders being the problem, Shinseki saying that hundreds of thousands of troops were needed to keep the peace there while saying that he would bring them home and–watch my hands–magically do it with no more troops which he himself says we don’t have?  Claiming $200 billion has been spent when it’s less than $120 billion and calling Bush a liar?  Moaning about undersupplied troops while he vote AGAINST funding the supplies? Bilateral talks with Kim Jong Il when anyone who knows anything about that situation knows that China which supplies all their energy could bring them to their knees overnight?  Carrying on about all these great international coalitions that he would build to solve nuclear proliferation when EXACTLY that was tried recently with France, Germany and England and got the finger from the mullahs? Presidential?  Regal?  Totally in command?  HAHAHAHAHA!  He’s a complete nonsensical babbling flip flopping idiot, just as this Brit saw.  But then she is obviously a lot smarter than the likes of idiots like you.

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  typed:  Go fuck yourself.. No, let’s answer the moron:   Bush – 0   Kerry – 10 ABC poll shows Bush gained a point over Kerry after the debate, so you can’t even begin to c   ount.Bigsurprise.

that looks about right to me….i got the impression bush is remarkably    shy and even somewhat self effacing…. regards… — web site at www.abelard.org – news and comment service, logic,     energy, education, politics, etc 850,000 document calls yearly   all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry   the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.   good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words                     only when it’s funny — roger rabbit

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As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President. Are these really the best two candidates that America can come up with ?

Now, here is an opinion I can really agree with.  Perfect evidence of what a slime ball election system produces.

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Right genius.  So you think Kerry who says that there are too few troops in Iraq to do the job to secure the borders BUT would have the troops pulled out is coherent huh?  You’re just a dumbshit that had what passes for a mind made up before it all started. because Kerry was just pure bullshit.  And an ABC poll just taken proved it, as the number of people after the debate that said they would vote for Bush over Kerry just went up by 1% which proves you have no grasp of reality whatsoever so why should you see it in anyone else? Clinton lied all the time, but damn, he was a well spoken liar.

Lied?  Lied?  Depends on what you mean by a lie.

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  typed: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 on a scale of 0 to 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? He can’t even speak in public!!! Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain??? It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is??? Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq! If the American people re-elect this moron they deserve ten more 9/11’s!!!

quite amazing how seriously stupid people like yourself see what you     want to see rather than what is before their eyes…. my overall impression was there was no clear ‘winner’…. but kerry did come across as decidedly shifty…. — web site at www.abelard.org – news and comment service, logic,     energy, education, politics, etc 850,000 document calls yearly   all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry   the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.   good people do nothing     []   trust actions not words                     only when it’s funny — roger rabbit

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As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President. Shirley you jest!  Kerry looked (and sounded) presidential, regal, totally in command.  Bush fumbled like a drunk 16 year old trying to untie the bra of the first girl he’s ever been with.

Well he totally lost the support of the allies in Iraq, by saying there weren’t any. Whilst saying he would solve the future of Iraq by getting more allies. That was simply idiotic. They both were.

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That has got to be one of the most painful humiliations in Shrub’s life.  Kerry wiped the floor with him. Even a junior high student would have done a better job than Dubya. I don’t know how Pappy Bush and Barbara "Ma Barker" didn’t have the sense to send him to reform school and keep him there the rest of his life.

Dream on Klingon.  He just gained a point on Kerry as a result of the debate.  Shows what arrogant stupid asses like you know.

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Kerry = Style but no content Bush = Content but no style They  both have their problems, but I’ll take content over style. Matt

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Reality check time: The rest of the PMS-CBS-NBC talking heads are breathing a sigh of relief saying that Kerry came off better than expected and "held his own." Hardly a "win." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? I’m watching it now.  I’m watching Bush struggle answering a question.  He’s sweating bullets.  He’s giving muddled answers. He appears weak, and is reaching for answers.  He sounds exasperated while answering questions when he realizes he’s giving muddled answers. He’s giving joe-six-pack, water-cooler style answers to questions. His vocabulary is 10′th grade, and his prounounciation is 6′th grade. He gives "visionary" or passionate answers to questions – not logical, constructive, concrete answers. I wouldn’t trust Bush to run a PTA meeting coherently, let alone a country.

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 Go fuck yourself..

No, let’s answer the moron:   Bush – 0   Kerry – 10

ABC poll shows Bush gained a point over Kerry after the debate, so you can’t even begin to count.  Big surprise.   on a scale of 0 to 10   How did this IDIOT ever become president???

By getting more electoral votes than Gore stupid.  That’s how the system works.   He can’t even speak in public!!!

Funny.  He did well enough to gain a point on Kerry idiot.   Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain???

You have him confused with yourself here.   It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is???

No do you?  He ain’t in the US nor have there been any more attacks here since 9/11 which is fine with me.  Let him rot in a cave in Pakistan, which is where everybody but Kerry knows he is, Kerry thinking he is in Afghanistan.  Probably doesn’t know the difference between the two.   Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq!

Further hint:  he ain’t in Afghanistan where Kerry thinks he is either.   If the American people re-elect this moron they deserve ten more 9/11’s!!!

Sure moron.  That’s why there haven’t BEEN any since 9/11.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? I’m watching it now.  I’m watching Bush struggle answering a question.  He’s sweating bullets.  He’s giving muddled answers. He appears weak, and is reaching for answers.  He sounds exasperated while answering questions when he realizes he’s giving muddled answers. He’s giving joe-six-pack, water-cooler style answers to questions. His vocabulary is 10′th grade, and his prounounciation is 6′th grade. He gives "visionary" or passionate answers to questions – not logical, constructive, concrete answers. I wouldn’t trust Bush to run a PTA meeting coherently, let alone a country. Right genius.  So you think Kerry who says that there are too few troops in Iraq to do the job to secure the borders BUT would have the troops pulled out is coherent huh?  You’re just a dumbshit that had what passes for a mind made up before it all started. because Kerry was just pure bullshit.  And an ABC poll just taken proved it, as the number of people after the debate that said they would vote for Bush over Kerry just went up by 1% which proves you have no grasp of reality whatsoever so why should you see it in anyone else?

Clinton lied all the time, but damn, he was a well spoken liar.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? I’m watching it now.  I’m watching Bush struggle answering a question.  He’s sweating bullets.  He’s giving muddled answers. He appears weak, and is reaching for answers.  He sounds exasperated while answering questions when he realizes he’s giving muddled answers. He’s giving joe-six-pack, water-cooler style answers to questions. His vocabulary is 10′th grade, and his prounounciation is 6′th grade. He gives "visionary" or passionate answers to questions – not logical, constructive, concrete answers. I wouldn’t trust Bush to run a PTA meeting coherently, let alone a country.

Right genius.  So you think Kerry who says that there are too few troops in Iraq to do the job to secure the borders BUT would have the troops pulled out is coherent huh?  You’re just a dumbshit that had what passes for a mind made up before it all started. because Kerry was just pure bullshit.  And an ABC poll just taken proved it, as the number of people after the debate that said they would vote for Bush over Kerry just went up by 1% which proves you have no grasp of reality whatsoever so why should you see it in anyone else?

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As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President.

Shirley you jest!  Kerry looked (and sounded) presidential, regal, totally in command.  Bush fumbled like a drunk 16 year old trying to untie the bra of the first girl he’s ever been with.

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As a Brit currently in Yankland who has just watched it, I can honestly predict that America will have an idiot as the next President. Are these really the best two candidates that America can come up with ?

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 Go fuck yourself..

Truth too much for ya? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Bush – 0   Kerry – 10   on a scale of 0 to 10   How did this IDIOT ever become president???   He can’t even speak in public!!!   Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain???   It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is???   Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq!   If the American people re-elect this moron they deserve ten more 9/11’s!!!

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Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 on a scale of 0 to 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? He can’t even speak in public!!! Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain??? It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is??? Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq! If the American people re-elect this moron they deserve ten more 9/11’s!!!

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  Go fuck yourself..   Bush – 0   Kerry – 10     on a scale of 0 to 10     How did this IDIOT ever become president???     He can’t even speak in public!!!     Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain???     It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is???     Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq!     If the American people re-elect this moron they deserve ten more 9/11’s!!!    

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Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president???

I’m watching it now.  I’m watching Bush struggle answering a question.  He’s sweating bullets.  He’s giving muddled answers. He appears weak, and is reaching for answers.  He sounds exasperated while answering questions when he realizes he’s giving muddled answers. He’s giving joe-six-pack, water-cooler style answers to questions. His vocabulary is 10′th grade, and his prounounciation is 6′th grade. He gives "visionary" or passionate answers to questions – not logical, constructive, concrete answers. I wouldn’t trust Bush to run a PTA meeting coherently, let alone a country.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bush – 0 Kerry – 10 on a scale of 0 to 10 How did this IDIOT ever become president??? He can’t even speak in public!!! Has he always been this stupid or did the decades of alcohol and drug abuse fry his brain??? It’s one month before the election, Mr. President . . . do you know where Bin Laden is??? Hint:  He isn’t in Iraq! If the American people re-elect this moron they deserve ten more 9/11’s!!!

That has got to be one of the most painful humiliations in Shrub’s life.  Kerry wiped the floor with him. Even a junior high student would have done a better job than Dubya. I don’t know how Pappy Bush and Barbara "Ma Barker" didn’t have the sense to send him to reform school and keep him there the rest of his life.

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Question:

Well, many issues embedded therein. With HIV alone, use of an immune suppressive drug does seem counterintuitive. But to the contrary, they work well clinically! (I.e., AZT can cause neutropenia or anemia but does not deplete CD4 counts.)<<<<<<<<<<<< If given the choice I would prefer a low T cell count.

Why not take the choice? Take the HIV challenge. Problem is, most of the HIV+ denialists who bought your codswallop are dead. Many may have died even with access to ARV–but a LOT fewer. Neutropenia is a blood disorder that can affect anyone. Some people are born with it. It can happen after a viral infection. In some cases the cause can be a side effect of a drug, or exposure to certain poisons. People can get neutropenia when treated for cancer with chemotherapy drugs. Sometimes it happens for no known reason.

Yes.  It reflects a depletion in the number of cells called neutrophils. CD4+ depletion ("T cells") by contrast is NOT the same. It can happen with post-transplant immunesuppressant chemotherapy. And there seems to be an extremely rare idiopathic form of CD4+ lymphopenia. There are other diseases that may cause transient declines in CD4+ count. By contrast, HIV disease causes it in the majority of infected individuals. Snipped remainder of basic material that is indeed helpful although generally, providing a citation for quoted literature is at the least polite.                 George M. Carter

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.. HIV is said to cause AIDS by somehow depleting a person’s T cells which makes the person prone to opportunistic infections.  Once one of these opportunistic infections is present in a person who has tested positive for HIV they are considered to have AIDS.

Not so.  AIDS is only assumed to be present when there are a combination of opportunistic infections, both "major" and "minor".   I forget the exact combination required for "full blown AIDS", but it is usually one of the majors plus three others, or any two of the major ones and one or more of the minor ones.  Remember that AIDS presents differently in the various places.  In Africa, where TB is common anyway, the presence of TB is not regarded as AIDS defining (obviously), but it is one of the major diseases associated with AIDS.  I know at least two HIV negative people who have had TB apart from Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela. The other thing that is important to register is that someone who is HIV positive can get something like TB or pneumonia and then go on to recover and live a full and healthy life until he or she is run over by a bus (or whatever). The essence of HIV’S supposed effect on the human body is entirely dismissed when a person is given an AIDS diagnosis with one of the 29 different diseases and a normal T cell count.

No.  It is never one of 29 diseases.  At least four have to be present within a very short space of time, usually simultaneously. Moira, the Faerie Godmother

Response:

Macrophages go into overdrive when the body is infiltrated with other viruses and infections also.  Some autoimmune disorders seem to be connected to an over abundance of macrophages

Question:

Get Well soon OZZY… Ur fans are praying for U!!!

Song now Playing, Black Sabbath’sNIB”(midi)

~~~LIFE FUCKIN RULZ~~~

xXx~~~Chy<~~~xXx

Response:

the real osbourne news is  here is what happened the real thing that happened we are trying to get it corrected with the news. ozzy osbourne

You’re days are numbered on Usenet, fuckhead.

Response:

I’m praying for Ozzy. Dang! I love you Ozzy!! YFIO G:)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We all love you Ozzy and are praying for you.I was so sad to hear Ozzy was injured. I was dropping something off and saw it on the news I saw Ozzy and it said Osbourne injured. I got so upset, I ran home to look on the internet to see what happened! I’m really sad for what DID happen but happy it’s not life threatening. I don’t care if the Osbournes are on or not, I just want Ozzy to be okay. I’m praying for him and I know all of my FIO are too. Marisa aka GIA ITA, Get well Ozzy, we love you! I heard that!! Dang! OZZy get well!

Response:

the real osbourne news is  here is what happened the real thing that happened we are trying to get it corrected with the news. ozzy osbourne  (AP) – Ozzy Osbourne – once a wild man of heavy metal music, now a dazed dad in a reality TV show – recuperated in intensive care Tuesday from injuries including a broken neck vertebra after an all-terrain vehicle accident. Sharon Osbourne to be with her 55-year-old husband after the latest dramatic incident in a colorful career that has included biting the head off a bat and urinating on the Alamo, among other antics. "Apparently he was on his quad bike and he hit something and he fell and the bike landed on top of him," Sharon Osbourne told reporters Tuesday at London’s Heathrow Airport. A quad bike, akin to a four-wheel-drive motorcycle, is used for recreation and by hunters and farmers to reach inaccessible places. Sharon Osbourne visited her husband at (correction Beverly Hills Hospital)Wexham Park Hospital in Slough, west of London, where he underwent emergency surgery Monday to restore the flow to a damaged blood vessel, said Dr. Dick Jack, hospital medical director. Osbourne fractured his left collarbone, eight ribs and a neck vertebra in the accident Monday on his Buckinghamshire estate in southern England.(correction California) "It’s satisfactory but it’s going to be slow. I don’t expect any major changes certainly for 24 hours," Jack said of Osbourne’s recovery. He said he believed there was no risk of paralysis from the fractured neck vertebra, although doctors were awaiting a final report from radiologists before removing an immobilizing collar. The accident occurred while the singer was taking a day off from promoting "Changes," a duet with his daughter Kelly, his London publicity agency said in a statement. The song, released Tuesday in Britain, is a likely contender for the Christmas No. 1 spot in singles charts. Ozzy Osbourne, whose real name is John Osbourne, grew up in a blue-collar family in Birmingham, central England. He served two months in prison for burglary at age 17. He rose to fame with the 1970s metal band Black Sabbath. He left for a solo career, shocking many with lyrics focusing on the occult and startling performances. Osbourne bit the head off a live dove at a meeting with record company executives in 1981. The following year he did the same to a live bat at a concert in Des Moines, Iowa, although the bat reportedly bit back, and Osbourne reportedly had to undergo painful rabies shots. The singer also used to throw raw meat into the audience and once urinated on a wall at the Alamo in San Antonio, Texas. Some fans concluded that decades of alcohol and drug abuse had taken their toll when a rather confused-appearing Osbourne became an unlikely TV star with hit reality show "The Osbournes." The forth season of the MTV series, which follows the lives of Ozzy, Sharon and their children – Jack and Kelly – started production about a month ago and was to begin airing Jan. 13. The Osbourne accident nearly coincided with a story last weekend on the Los Angeles Times Web site reporting a claim by Osbourne that he was prescribed excessive amounts of powerful anti-psychotic and tranquilizing drugs by a Beverly Hills physician. Osbourne said he developed a 42-pill-a-day habit that accounted for his odd behavior on the expletive-laden MTV show, in which he has been seen mumbling, falling and appearing disoriented. He blamed Dr. David Kipper, who has been investigated for the same practices with other celebrity patients. On Monday, however, actor-director Danny DeVito issued a statement in support of Kipper. DeVito said he and his wife, actress Rhea Perlman, and other family members have relied on Kipper’s care for more than 20 years. Calls to Kipper’s office Monday were not returned. Earlier this month, Osbourne told a British newspaper he’d been sexually molested as a child and suffered emotional effects long into adulthood.

Response:

We all love you Ozzy and are praying for you.I was so sad to hear Ozzy was injured. I was dropping something off and saw it on the news I saw Ozzy and it said Osbourne injured. I got so upset, I ran home to look on the internet to see what happened! I’m really sad for what DID happen but happy it’s not life threatening. I don’t care if the Osbournes are on or not, I just want Ozzy to be okay. I’m praying for him and I know all of my FIO are too. Marisa aka GIA

ITA, Get well Ozzy, we love you!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We all love you Ozzy and are praying for you.I was so sad to hear Ozzy was injured. I was dropping something off and saw it on the news I saw Ozzy and it said Osbourne injured. I got so upset, I ran home to look on the internet to see what happened! I’m really sad for what DID happen but happy it’s not life threatening. I don’t care if the Osbournes are on or not, I just want Ozzy to be okay. I’m praying for him and I know all of my FIO are too. Marisa aka GIA ITA, Get well Ozzy, we love you! I heard that!! Dang! OZZy get well!

Response:

We all love you Ozzy and are praying for you.I was so sad to hear Ozzy was injured. I was dropping something off and saw it on the news I saw Ozzy and it said Osbourne injured. I got so upset, I ran home to look on the internet to see what happened! I’m really sad for what DID happen but happy it’s not life threatening. I don’t care if the Osbournes are on or not, I just want Ozzy to be okay. I’m praying for him and I know all of my FIO are too. Marisa aka GIA    

Response:

“

Question:

And another intersting article.  Discriminating against fat people is deemed "acceptable" in our society.  It’s sad.

and very, very childish .. reminiscent of picking on the fat kid in the playground don’t you think?

Response:

" And another intersting article.  Discriminating against fat people is deemed "acceptable" in our society.  It’s sad. and very, very childish .. reminiscent of picking on the fat kid in the playground don’t you think?

It is childish.  I think it is because it is perceived that being obese is a "chosen" problem.  In many people’s minds the answer is just "stop eating so much and you’ll lose."  I agree that this is true, but there are so MANY reasons people overeat, and they can be very similar the reasons people have problems with alcohol and drug abuse. I doubt that people’s minds will ever change on this issue. Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – " And another intersting article.  Discriminating against fat people is deemed "acceptable" in our society.  It’s sad. and very, very childish .. reminiscent of picking on the fat kid in the playground don’t you think? It is childish.  I think it is because it is perceived that being obese is a "chosen" problem.  In many people’s minds the answer is just "stop eating so much and you’ll lose."  I agree that this is true, but there are so MANY reasons people overeat, and they can be very similar the reasons people have problems with alcohol and drug abuse. I doubt that people’s minds will ever change on this issue.

You can hope they’ll grow up though, can’t you?

Response:

You can hope they’ll grow up though, can’t you?

Yes, I’d love that but, sometimes in life, it’s necessary for someone to have "been there" to fully understand.  It is easier for a lot of people to simply hate, and discriminate against, others who are different.  I often wonder if it is fear talking?  i.e…"if I eat too much, I’ll end up like that person."  If they label the other as lazy or ignorant, or other words, they can say that they don’t have those qualities so there isn’t any chance. Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

And another intersting article.  Discriminating against fat people is deemed "acceptable" in our society.  It’s sad. Carol — 318/254/169 64 lost since December 2002 I am a slim person in process.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fat phobia study reveals weighty attitudes FORT LAUDERDALE, Florida (AP) –While it is no surprise that people often have a low opinion of the overweight, a new study finds that just standing next to a large person can be bad for one’s image. The experiment, conducted in England, demonstrates the depths of stigmatization endured by heavy people: It even rubs off on their friends. Trying to combat discrimination against the overweight is a topic of discussion at this week’s meeting in Fort Lauderdale of the North American Association for the Study of Obesity, the field’s top professional organization. Even here, though, another study suggests that obesity specialists themselves may harbor subtle, if unintentional, negative attitudes toward their patients. "Weight stigma is powerful, pervasive and destructive," said Marlene Schwartz, a Yale psychologist. In the English study, psychologist Jason Halford and colleagues from the University of Liverpool tested 144 female students’ reactions to two prom photos. One showed a dapper, thin young man standing next to a svelte ringlet-haired woman. The other was the same photo altered to show the guy arm-in-arm with a very large, nicely dressed woman. The volunteers took a quick look at one or the other of the pictures and then were asked their opinion of the man. They rated him from 1 to 5 on 50 negative adjectives — called the "fat phobia scale" — that people often use to describe obese people. The man with the big woman was rated 22 percent more negatively than the same man with the thin companion. When seen with the large woman, he was more likely to be described as miserable, self-indulgent, passive, shapeless, depressed, weak, insignificant and insecure. "It shows that people project negative attitudes associated with obesity not only on the obese but all those who associate with them," Halford said. The study also found that students who were themselves overweight were more likely than usual to rate the man harshly when pictured with the obese partner. At the same obesity meeting two years ago, researchers give a word quiz, called an implicit association test, to about 200 obesity professionals. The test, intended to measure bias, asks people to quickly link up words like "lazy," "stupid" and "worthless" on command with obese or thin people. The results, described at this year’s meeting, showed that obesity professionals were more apt to link the negative words with overweight people, even when trying not to. "These are unconscious attitudes," said Heather Chambliss of the Cooper Institute in Dallas. Carol Johnson of Milwaukee, a large woman who heads a support organization called Largely Positive, told the conference that overweight people are often discriminated against by doctors, who ascribe all their problems to weight and sometimes withhold standard treatments, like blood pressure pills, that they freely prescribe to thin patients. "Society wants no fatties," Johnson said. Rebecca Puhl of Yale said bias against the large begins early in life. Studies show that even preschoolers are more likely to describe overweight playmates as mean, ugly or stupid. She said overweight people are less likely to get into college, less likely to get hired and more likely to get fired. "Expressing negative attitudes toward obese people has become an acceptable form of bias," she said.

Response:

Fat phobia study reveals weighty attitudes FORT LAUDERDALE, Florida (AP) –While it is no surprise that people often have a low opinion of the overweight, a new study finds that just standing next to a large person can be bad for one’s image. The experiment, conducted in England, demonstrates the depths of stigmatization endured by heavy people: It even rubs off on their friends. Trying to combat discrimination against the overweight is a topic of discussion at this week’s meeting in Fort Lauderdale of the North American Association for the Study of Obesity, the field’s top professional organization. Even here, though, another study suggests that obesity specialists themselves may harbor subtle, if unintentional, negative attitudes toward their patients. "Weight stigma is powerful, pervasive and destructive," said Marlene Schwartz, a Yale psychologist. In the English study, psychologist Jason Halford and colleagues from the University of Liverpool tested 144 female students’ reactions to two prom photos. One showed a dapper, thin young man standing next to a svelte ringlet-haired woman. The other was the same photo altered to show the guy arm-in-arm with a very large, nicely dressed woman. The volunteers took a quick look at one or the other of the pictures and then were asked their opinion of the man. They rated him from 1 to 5 on 50 negative adjectives — called the "fat phobia scale" — that people often use to describe obese people. The man with the big woman was rated 22 percent more negatively than the same man with the thin companion. When seen with the large woman, he was more likely to be described as miserable, self-indulgent, passive, shapeless, depressed, weak, insignificant and insecure. "It shows that people project negative attitudes associated with obesity not only on the obese but all those who associate with them," Halford said. The study also found that students who were themselves overweight were more likely than usual to rate the man harshly when pictured with the obese partner. At the same obesity meeting two years ago, researchers give a word quiz, called an implicit association test, to about 200 obesity professionals. The test, intended to measure bias, asks people to quickly link up words like "lazy," "stupid" and "worthless" on command with obese or thin people. The results, described at this year’s meeting, showed that obesity professionals were more apt to link the negative words with overweight people, even when trying not to. "These are unconscious attitudes," said Heather Chambliss of the Cooper Institute in Dallas. Carol Johnson of Milwaukee, a large woman who heads a support organization called Largely Positive, told the conference that overweight people are often discriminated against by doctors, who ascribe all their problems to weight and sometimes withhold standard treatments, like blood pressure pills, that they freely prescribe to thin patients. "Society wants no fatties," Johnson said. Rebecca Puhl of Yale said bias against the large begins early in life. Studies show that even preschoolers are more likely to describe overweight playmates as mean, ugly or stupid. She said overweight people are less likely to get into college, less likely to get hired and more likely to get fired. "Expressing negative attitudes toward obese people has become an acceptable form of bias," she said.

Response:

Question:

The big "error"  you made with regard to me is your FALSELY  believing i participate on ASAD for reasons other than the reason I do. .

You participate in ASAD in order to make yourself feel better by lying about and putting down others, so you can enjoy an artificial contrast. You change "nicks" every so often in a vain attempt to make this less obvious. However, since it _does_ appear to make you feel better, far be it from me to remove the one slim self-validation you receive.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Linda, why don’t you show where I have been wrong in any significant way about *anything* here? So…..you gone from denying you ever posted lies or ever been wrong,  to denying you ever been wrong in "any significant way" See, here’s where you get yourself into deep water, Linda.  You made an assertion, that I lie.  I’ve invited you to substantiate or retract that assertion–not surprisingly, without your making any effort to do so. WTF you talking bout, Joe? You are a very dishonest poster  and you post lies,  

There you go again.  You complain about how you are being "defamed" (a claim for which you have yet to provide proof), but when you make statements like this one–your claiming that I have lied–you seem to believe that repeating the lie over and over will somehow make it true. It doesn’t.  Your statement is every bit as much a lie after the tenth time of utterance as at the first. But I’ll invite you–one more time–to produce even a single instance where I have lied. and my and everyone elses comments upon your dishonesty and posting lies is fair comment.

Sorry, Linda.  Statements from "Greta," "Daisy," "Donald," "Edward" or any of the other inhabitants of your hosiery drawer don’t count as other people.  For that matter, an accusation does not have the force of fact–no matter how fervently you may wish it so. But you have–still–a golden opportunity to humiliate me!  Produce a post from me where I have lied.  Just one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -You should see Byte Me ("BM") on the subject of "movements." What an opportunity you have here!  Nearly 10,000 posts to choose from, over nearly a decade–surely you can find SOMETHING with which to humiliate me with some egregious error I have made! The big "error"  you made with regard to me is your FALSELY  believing i participate on ASAD for reasons other than the reason I do. . Please produce a post from me where you can demonstrate something I have said that is incorrect.  If I have made an error, I’ll correct it. All the other errors you commit with regard to me are a consequnce of you misattributing to me  motives not mine. As,  that error that leads you to post all the blatant falsehoods you do to defame me, and your neverending but totally false accusations. Plus,  your refusal to consider the fact you were dead wrong,  a year plus after I began participating in discussions about ADD,  undeterred by your strenous efforts to make me go away. I will continue to participate on ASAD for the reasons I began participating, to answer all the questions I have about aDHD,  accommodating it,  and alleviating it. Good.  When were you planning to start? You are a dishonest person, Joe,  and your dishonesty is no more evident than when you ask questions which have false implications.

I take it from your response that you don’t plan to start actually asking questions about ADHD any time soon. Joe Parsons – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While I seek answere to my questions I will continue to use this foruma as a place where I can bounce my ideas around,  no matter how half baked they are while I learn what I need to know so eventually a clear picture emerges in my mind, and I say…aha!  I get it! That is how I grasp things,  via dialectics,  or debate,   de

Question:

I hope your pdoc can straighten this out for you. I’ll express personal concerns about getting romantically invovled with anyone while everything in your life is such a mess.  AA and Al Anon tend to discourage new relationships until you adjust to you changing circumastances while in recovery. KG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the past two weeks I’ve been feeling like I was in a mixed state. I’ve been sleeping less, drinking more, spending money I don’t have, forgetting to take the occasional med, driving like a madman while having a suspended license for seizures, I’ve had two one night stands, spent the day in bed depressed after the one night stands, all the while trying my hardest to get this gorgeous woman I met a couple of weeks ago to fall for me (she’s about to get her Ph.D. in clinical psychology so she’s smart and beautiful <g). Sounds like a fun two weeks, huh? Anyway, I saw the pdoc this morning and told him all of this. He agreed that I seem to be in a mixed state and was going to fill out my disability continuation form with the dx of BP (instead of the MDD I’ve been dx’d with for the past 6 mos.). But he forgot and put major depression down instead. It’s OK though since he’s at least now ready to change my dx. He wants me to pursue the woman I’ve been lusting after so that he can see how I react in a relationship situation. And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!! Hilaire hld3atNOSPAMnewsguydotcom change at to @, dot to . & remove nospam to email me. Yahoo I.M. I.D. busterpointdexter

Response:

I hope your pdoc can straighten this out for you. I’ll express personal concerns about getting romantically invovled with anyone while everything in your life is such a mess.  AA and Al Anon tend to discourage new relationships until you adjust to you changing circumastances while in recovery. KG

<SPOILER – AA Talk Thanks for the concern and input Kathy. It is appreciated I will say that I am extremely adverse to anything that has to do with N/AA. My ex step-mother and my sister were in a cult (The Alive Polarity Fellowship) after my father and step-mother divorced. At the time my father hired Helen Shapiro (known for getting kids out of the Moonies) to get my sister out. She succeeded and my father became one of the first men to get complete custody of his children, including me since my mother was in and out of Napa State Hospital on a fairly regular basis. I also spent two years working for a company that was run by Scientologist’s and am deafly scared of them. Sorry, but I consider the N/AA phenomena to be a cult. This is JMO and as always, YMMV. If it works for you, great, go for it. My pdoc is trying to learn as much as he can about me. So he has asked that I either get a mindless job or continue on with the new relationship I’m pursuing so that he can observe me in those situations (he’s never seen me in either situation except for my 2 week stint in March which started and ended between pdoc sessions). I feel that I’m not quite ready to try to go back to work yet so I’m going to pursue the relationship. Plus she’s gorgeous and about to get her Ph.D. I couldn’t ask for more. BTW – the first one night stand was with someone who was practically begging me to take her home. Which I did and now regret, the spark just wasn’t there. The second one was with an ex girlfriend who likes to play with me on occasion. And the woman that I’m pursuing is someone I met a couple of weeks ago and thought I’d never see again. But luckily I ran into her on Friday night and she was interested. BTW again – For what it’s worth, I have also decided that I am *not* going to pursue SSDI. I don’t want to give up on life and want to try and stay somewhat functional in this screwed up society.

Response:

I drank when I was up because it made me wilder.  I drank when I was down because it numbed me.  It nearly ruined my life.  You are playing with fire. Be careful, okay? c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the past two weeks I’ve been feeling like I was in a mixed state. I’ve been sleeping less, drinking more, spending money I don’t have, forgetting to take the occasional med, driving like a madman while having a suspended license for seizures, I’ve had two one night stands, spent the day in bed depressed after the one night stands, all the while trying my hardest to get this gorgeous woman I met a couple of weeks ago to fall for me (she’s about to get her Ph.D. in clinical psychology so she’s smart and beautiful <g). Sounds like a fun two weeks, huh? Anyway, I saw the pdoc this morning and told him all of this. He agreed that I seem to be in a mixed state and was going to fill out my disability continuation form with the dx of BP (instead of the MDD I’ve been dx’d with for the past 6 mos.). But he forgot and put major depression down instead. It’s OK though since he’s at least now ready to change my dx. He wants me to pursue the woman I’ve been lusting after so that he can see how I react in a relationship situation. And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!! Hilaire You would probably find that eliminating alcohol would be greatly beneficial. Thanks for the input. I have not been getting hammered, just drinking enough so that I can fall sleep. If it were not for the alcohol, at this time, I would *not* be able to sleep at all. I am actually happy that I’m going manic so that my pdoc can finally see me in this phase and can finally give me the proper dx. I’ve been dx’d as Major Depressive for the past 6 months but am 100% sure that I’m BP. Now my pdoc is finally starting to really agree with me. You will find studies that indicate that mixed states, hypomania and mania are the times when BP’ers self medicate the most. Here is a direct quote from "Touched With Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness And The Artistic Temperament" by Kay Redfield Jamison: "Poe was scarcely alone in suffering from both manic-depressive illness and alcohol and drug abuse. Studies are quite consistent in finding elevated rates of alcohol and drug abuse in individuals with manic-depressive illness; conversely, there is a significantly higher percentage of bipolar patients in populations of alcoholics and drug abusers. The largest and best-designed investigation to date has been the Epidemiologic Catchment Area (ECA) study, a large survey conducted by the National Institute of Mental Health in five major American population centers (New Haven, Baltimore, St. Louis, Los Angeles, and Piedmont County, North Carolina). The study found an exceedingly high lifetime prevalence rate, 46 percent, for alcohol abuse and dependence in patients with manic-depressive illness; the figures for unipolar depressed patients and the general population were 21 and 13 percent respectively. A related study found that mania was strongly associated with alcoholism but major depression was not. Although it is perhaps more intuitive to link increased alcohol use with the depressed phase of manic-depressive illness, evidence suggests that increased alcohol consumption is actually more frequently associated with hypomania, mania, and the mixed or transitional states. Indeed, manic-depressive patients who increase their alcohol consumption generally do so during the manic phase." Hilaire hld3atNOSPAMnewsguydotcom change at to @, dot to . & remove nospam to email me. Yahoo I.M. I.D. busterpointdexter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For the past two weeks I’ve been feeling like I was in a mixed state. I’ve been sleeping less, drinking more, spending money I don’t have, forgetting to take the occasional med, driving like a madman while having a suspended license for seizures, I’ve had two one night stands, spent the day in bed depressed after the one night stands, all the while trying my hardest to get this gorgeous woman I met a couple of weeks ago to fall for me (she’s about to get her Ph.D. in clinical psychology so she’s smart and beautiful <g). Sounds like a fun two weeks, huh? Anyway, I saw the pdoc this morning and told him all of this. He agreed that I seem to be in a mixed state and was going to fill out my disability continuation form with the dx of BP (instead of the MDD I’ve been dx’d with for the past 6 mos.). But he forgot and put major depression down instead. It’s OK though since he’s at least now ready to change my dx. He wants me to pursue the woman I’ve been lusting after so that he can see how I react in a relationship situation. And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!! Hilaire

You would probably find that eliminating alcohol would be greatly beneficial.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For the past two weeks I’ve been feeling like I was in a mixed state. I’ve been sleeping less, drinking more, spending money I don’t have, forgetting to take the occasional med, driving like a madman while having a suspended license for seizures, I’ve had two one night stands, spent the day in bed depressed after the one night stands, all the while trying my hardest to get this gorgeous woman I met a couple of weeks ago to fall for me (she’s about to get her Ph.D. in clinical psychology so she’s smart and beautiful <g). Sounds like a fun two weeks, huh? Anyway, I saw the pdoc this morning and told him all of this. He agreed that I seem to be in a mixed state and was going to fill out my disability continuation form with the dx of BP (instead of the MDD I’ve been dx’d with for the past 6 mos.). But he forgot and put major depression down instead. It’s OK though since he’s at least now ready to change my dx. He wants me to pursue the woman I’ve been lusting after so that he can see how I react in a relationship situation. And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!! Hilaire You would probably find that eliminating alcohol would be greatly beneficial.

Thanks for the input. I have not been getting hammered, just drinking enough so that I can fall sleep. If it were not for the alcohol, at this time, I would *not* be able to sleep at all. I am actually happy that I’m going manic so that my pdoc can finally see me in this phase and can finally give me the proper dx. I’ve been dx’d as Major Depressive for the past 6 months but am 100% sure that I’m BP. Now my pdoc is finally starting to really agree with me. You will find studies that indicate that mixed states, hypomania and mania are the times when BP’ers self medicate the most. Here is a direct quote from "Touched With Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness And The Artistic Temperament" by Kay Redfield Jamison: "Poe was scarcely alone in suffering from both manic-depressive illness and alcohol and drug abuse. Studies are quite consistent in finding elevated rates of alcohol and drug abuse in individuals with manic-depressive illness; conversely, there is a significantly higher percentage of bipolar patients in populations of alcoholics and drug abusers. The largest and best-designed investigation to date has been the Epidemiologic Catchment Area (ECA) study, a large survey conducted by the National Institute of Mental Health in five major American population centers (New Haven, Baltimore, St. Louis, Los Angeles, and Piedmont County, North Carolina). The study found an exceedingly high lifetime prevalence rate, 46 percent, for alcohol abuse and dependence in patients with manic-depressive illness; the figures for unipolar depressed patients and the general population were 21 and 13 percent respectively. A related study found that mania was strongly associated with alcoholism but major depression was not. Although it is perhaps more intuitive to link increased alcohol use with the depressed phase of manic-depressive illness, evidence suggests that increased alcohol consumption is actually more frequently associated with hypomania, mania, and the mixed or transitional states. Indeed, manic-depressive patients who increase their alcohol consumption generally do so during the manic phase." Hilaire hld3atNOSPAMnewsguydotcom change at to @, dot to . & remove nospam to email me. Yahoo I.M. I.D. busterpointdexter

Response:

"Colleen" wrote Check out Trileptal.  It’s an analoge of Tegretol a lesser side effect profile.  Tegretol affects the liver.  It is the best med I’ve ever taken.

     Ok , Thanks for the information Colleen        Vicky/ who needs all the help she can get

Response:

FWIW – I didn’t drink anything last night, took 3 trazodone’s, smoked a bunch of pot and was only able to sleep for 4 hours.

I used to drink; sometimes 6 to ten beers a night as well as smoke pot now and again. I now realize self-medicating was a big part of it. However, after starting medication and carefully monitoring myself for a year and a  half, I now realize how sensitive my system is–even caffiene or too much sugar can start to trigger mania. You might be experiencing some perceived short term benefits, but it’s highly likely that alcohol and pot are contributing to your long-term mood fluctuations. Just my opinion. I know how hard it is to quit. ..

Response:

typed: … And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day.   Good luck with this new med combo…. I have a appointment with the pdoc tommorrow and hope I can get something similar to your mix of meds…. although I worry about depakote because I have heard it can make your hair fall out and mess with the liver count… maybe tegretol would be a better choice for me.

Yes, Depakote can do both of those things plus some. Personally I have lost a ton of hair (which I can afford since I have a lot of it, but it does seem to have stopped falling out lately), I’ve added a few pounds (I now exercise regularly and eat better), and I get my blood level checked every few months ( I’ve been on the low end of the spectrum [75] and will have to get it done again soon to see if the additional 250 mg/day of Depakote I recently added has changed it). The therapeutic range for Depakote level in the blood for the treatment of Bipolar Disorder is between 75-125. When it gets above that is when you need to start worrying about your liver. The levels are lower for seizures. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!!    And good luck with that also… my Mother has epilepsy but she is in denial <sigh   I find this all fasinating though and my Mother is not amuzed  and calls me a internet Dr… oh well…     Vicky/

Thanks Vicky. It’s kind of hard for me to be in denial about it since I just lost my drivers license because of it. I need to do everything in my power to get my neurologist to reverse that decision. H

Response:

Check out Trileptal.  It’s an analoge of Tegretol a lesser side effect profile.  Tegretol affects the liver.  It is the best med I’ve ever taken. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day.    Good luck with this new med combo…. I have a appointment with the pdoc tommorrow and hope I can get something similar to your mix of meds…. although I worry about depakote because I have heard it can make your hair fall out and mess with the liver count… maybe tegretol would be a better choice for me. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!!     And good luck with that also… my Mother has epilepsy but she is in denial <sigh   I find this all fasinating though and my Mother is not amuzed  and calls me a internet Dr… oh well…      Vicky/

Response:

… And he also suggested I add an SSRI into my cocktail. He listed them all and asked me which one I wanted to try, so I chose Celexa (I don’t know why I chose it, I just did). I had a really bad experience with Zoloft in the early 90’s. And I didn’t want to try Prozac because I hear it has the same sexual side effects as Zoloft. So now my med cocktail consists of Depakote 2000 mg/day, Celexa 20 mg/day, and Trazodone 50 mg/day.

   Good luck with this new med combo…. I have a appointment with the pdoc tommorrow and hope I can get something similar to your mix of meds…. although I worry about depakote because I have heard it can make your hair fall out and mess with the liver count… maybe tegretol would be a better choice for me. As far as the seizure situation is concerned I am still awaiting the test results of my EEG’s and MRI’s. I see the neurologist again on June 2nd so that’s when I’ll find out. Ack!! Thppt!!

    And good luck with that also… my Mother has epilepsy but she is in denial <sigh   I find this all fasinating though and my Mother is not amuzed  and calls me a internet Dr… oh well…      Vicky/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hope your pdoc can straighten this out for you. I’ll express personal concerns about getting romantically invovled with anyone while everything in your life is such a mess.  AA and Al Anon tend to discourage new relationships until you adjust to you changing circumastances while in recovery. KG <SPOILER – AA Talk Thanks for the concern and input Kathy. It is appreciated I will say that I am extremely adverse to anything that has to do with N/AA.

I didn’t think you should join any 12 Step Program.  When life is muddled sometimes its better to stay the course than add more stress tension ot your life no matter how well meaning. My pdoc is trying to learn as much as he can about me. So he has asked that I either get a mindless job or continue on with the new relationship I’m pursuing so that he can observe me in those

IMHO He’s making you a guinea pig. BTW – the first one night stand was with someone who was practically begging me to take her home. Which I did and now regret, the spark just wasn’t there. The second one was with an ex girlfriend who likes to play with me on occasion. And the woman that I’m pursuing is someone I met a couple of weeks ago and thought I’d never see again. But luckily I ran into her on Friday night and she was interested.

the only moralizing I’ve got to say about one night stands is use a condom. never know what you might accidently get in a moment of passion. BTW again – For what it’s worth, I have also decided that I am *not* going to pursue SSDI. I don’t want to give up on life and want to try and stay somewhat functional in this screwed up society.

Good luck, I wish I could hold a job. KG

Response:

typed: I drank when I was up because it made me wilder.  I drank when I was down because it numbed me.  It nearly ruined my life.  You are playing with fire. Be careful, okay? c

Thanks Colleen  I usually only drink when I’m up to help me sleep. When I’m "normal" I have very little desire to drink at all. And when I’m depressed it’s the farthest thing from my mind. FWIW – I didn’t drink anything last night, took 3 trazodone’s, smoked a bunch of pot and was only able to sleep for 4 hours. Hilaire

Response:

Question:

Read " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman. Two  outstanding Jewish archaeologists.< REad some of the works of William Devers, who is a better and more up-to-date archaeologist. I dispute that. Never heard of him and a quick search on google found no Devers archaeologist. Probably some Christian nutter.<

Try the following for starters: William Devers, "Save Us from Postmodern Malarkey," Biblical Archaeological Review 26, no. 2 (March/April 2000), 28-35, 68-69. BTW, Devers more or less agrees with the overwhelming majority of modern archaelogists that the events described in the Bible cannot be taken factually. However, he has a somewhat different take on what the archaeology may indeed indicate regarding the formation of the real "Israel."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Read " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman. Two  outstanding Jewish archaeologists.< REad some of the works of William Devers, who is a better and more up-to-date archaeologist. I dispute that. Never heard of him and a quick search on google found no Devers archaeologist. Probably some Christian nutter.< Try the following for starters: William Devers, "Save Us from Postmodern Malarkey," Biblical Archaeological Review 26, no. 2 (March/April 2000), 28-35, 68-69. BTW, Devers more or less agrees with the overwhelming majority of modern archaelogists that the events described in the Bible cannot be taken factually. However, he has a somewhat different take on what the archaeology may indeed indicate regarding the formation of the real "Israel."

I presume he writes from a Christian perspective?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam. Meanwhile, if you would consistently follow through the logic of your own position, then you would be going back to Europe for good, and demanding that non-Aborigines follow you! Abeles thinks that Aborigines are inferior human beings . He would like nothing better than to rid Australia of them. Tilly Idiot. My wife and children have aboriginal ancestry. Unlike you I don’t differentiate between peoples. Luckily I was raised without being brainwashed into the hate of strangers. Unlike you. You have made some very disparaging remarks about aborigines in the past saying, that they are responsible for the situation they find themselves

in. Yes, some of them are. It goes with alcohol and drug abuse. Just like Maoris, native Americans and other indigenous people. Some whites and Asians also have the same problems. If you have a solution let me know

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam. Meanwhile, if you would consistently follow through the logic of your own position, then you would be going back to Europe for good, and demanding that non-Aborigines follow you! Abeles thinks that Aborigines are inferior human beings . He would like nothing better than to rid Australia of them. Tilly Idiot. My wife and children have aboriginal ancestry. Unlike you I don’t differentiate between peoples. Luckily I was raised without being brainwashed into the hate of strangers. Unlike you.

You have made some very disparaging remarks about aborigines in the past saying, that they are responsible for the situation they find themselves in. In response I have posted several reports from Human Rights Groups and the UN that paint quite a different picture. Tilly. —

Response:

REad some of the works of William Devers, who is a better and more up-to-date archaeologist. I dispute that. Never heard of him and a quick search on google found no Devers archaeologist. Probably some Christian nutter.<

Try the archaeology section of a large library. I agree, that surprisingly there is next to nothing on the web about him.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. < Nor does the Old TEstament claim otherwise. Quite the contrary, in it God supposedly states that HE has given the land of others to the Hebrews, with their buildings, lands, tools and utensils. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. It had some towns that were mostly Hebrew, it had some that were mostly gentile, it had some that were mostly mixed. Although Jews may have been the majority. It was only in  the 6th. century CE that Jews became a minority, well after the destruction of the 2nd temple. This was probably mainly due to assimilation not dispersal.< Some by dispersal, and probably some by assimilation into Christianity and then into Islam. But by doing so they left the Covenant and hence they lost the right to SOVEREIGNTY over the land as promised to Israel. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. There is no basis for this claim. Yes Jews should be able to live in Israel based on normal immigration policies, but not based on religion if it excludes gentile inhabitants.< It’s not religion per se, but nationalism. Of course, with Jews there is no clear distinction between the JEwish nation and the Jewish religion any more than between heads and tails on a coin. THEy are both two faces of the same thing. They are inseparable. Destroy one and you destroy the other. Read " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman. Two outstanding Jewish archaeologists.< REad some of the works of William Devers, who is a better and more up-to-date archaeologist.

I dispute that. Never heard of him and a quick search on google found no Devers archaeologist. Probably some Christian nutter.

Response:

The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. <

Nor does the Old TEstament claim otherwise. Quite the contrary, in it God supposedly states that HE has given the land of others to the Hebrews, with their buildings, lands, tools and utensils. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. It had some towns that were mostly Hebrew, it had some that were mostly gentile, it had some that were mostly mixed. Although Jews may have been the majority. It was only in  the 6th. century CE that Jews became a minority, well after the destruction of the 2nd temple. This was probably mainly due to assimilation not dispersal.<

Some by dispersal, and probably some by assimilation into Christianity and then into Islam. But by doing so they left the Covenant and hence they lost the right to SOVEREIGNTY over the land as promised to Israel. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. There is no basis for this claim. Yes Jews should be able to live in Israel based on normal immigration policies, but not based on religion if it excludes gentile inhabitants.<

It’s not religion per se, but nationalism. Of course, with Jews there is no clear distinction between the JEwish nation and the Jewish religion any more than between heads and tails on a coin. THEy are both two faces of the same thing. They are inseparable. Destroy one and you destroy the other. Read " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman. Two outstanding Jewish archaeologists.<

REad some of the works of William Devers, who is a better and more up-to-date archaeologist.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam. Meanwhile, if you would consistently follow through the logic of your own position, then you would be going back to Europe for good, and demanding that non-Aborigines follow you! Abeles thinks that Aborigines are inferior human beings . He would like nothing better than to rid Australia of them. Tilly

Idiot. My wife and children have aboriginal ancestry. Unlike you I don’t differentiate between peoples. Luckily I was raised without being brainwashed into the hate of strangers. Unlike you.

Response:

One opinion by a far flung bit of academia. Conspiracy theory anyone?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. It had some towns that were mostly Hebrew, it had some that were mostly gentile, it had some that were mostly mixed. Although Jews may have been the majority. It was only in  the 6th. century CE that Jews became a minority, well after the destruction of the 2nd temple. This was probably mainly due to assimilation not dispersal. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. There is no basis for this claim. Yes Jews should be able to live in Israel based on normal immigration policies, but not based on religion if it excludes gentile inhabitants. Read " The Bible Unearthed" by Finkelstein and Silberman. Two outstanding Jewish archaeologists.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam. Meanwhile, if you would consistently follow through the logic of your own position, then you would be going back to Europe for good, and demanding that non-Aborigines follow you!

Abeles thinks that Aborigines are inferior human beings . He would like nothing better than to rid Australia of them. Tilly

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam.

Oh there was a temple in Jerusalem, allright, and King David  existed. The problem is that neither David not the temple were jewish!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles. Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state. The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam. Meanwhile, if you would consistently follow through the logic of your own position, then you would be going back to Europe for good, and demanding that non-Aborigines follow you!

Your logic is faulty as usual. I made no such demands on anyone else. Perhaps you explain the reason for your suggestion?

Response:

The area known as the Holy Land was never exclusively Jewish. It had mixed populations of Jews and gentiles.

Anybody who ever claimed otherwise must not have been reading their Bibles very closely, because the Bible says the same thing, from Judges 1:21-2:3 (among other passages) on down. Yet we have these outlandish claims from Zionists and religious zealots demanding a Jewish state.

The real "outlandish claims" are those by dishonest Minimalists that the Bible is a Maccabean-era forgery, or by many Muslims (including Arafat at Camp David in 2000) that there nver was any Jewish temple in Jerusalam. Meanwhile, if you would consistently follow through the logic of your own position, then you would be going back to Europe for good, and demanding that non-Aborigines follow you! — Some Qur’an quotes:  5:20  qaala muusaa  5:21 "yaa qawmi

Question:

The plant wrote:

<snip

Folks mistrust CPS, HHS, DCS, DHR, DYFS more than the IRS.

Only *folks* that abuse their kids mistrust CPS, HHS, DCS, DHR, DYFS. The *folks* that mistrust the IRS are the ones that cheat the IRS.  I’ve had dealings with the IRS, and just as with CPS, if one is honest and uses good common sense then one need not worry about either the IRS or CPS.

Marion Wright Edelman, founder and head of the Childrens’ Defense Fund concurs that it is best to "keep children OUT of the CPS system."

Duh!  But this would mean that some of you must stop abusing and neglecting your children.  That’s a tough stipulation for some of you,,,,,plant.

Response:

"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20030305110712.24056.00000054@mb-dh.aol.com…

The solution for DCF is to concentrate on serious cases, and leave the

*fat

kids* alone. Heck, CPS is the most mismanaged, bungled, out of control agency around. Folks mistrust CPS, HHS, DCS, DHR, DYFS more than the IRS. Marion Wright Edelman, founder and head of the Childrens’ Defense Fund

concurs

that it is best to "keep children OUT of the CPS system." Source:  http://www.npr.org

Fern, FYI, to take a quote out of context from the great ms. edelman is disrespectful and of course, untruthful As a matter of FACT, among the efforts stated by the CDF is the following (WITH cite, btw): http://www.childrensdefense.org/ss_maincwmh.php The goal of CDF’s Child Welfare and Mental Health Division is to ensure that all children are safe in nurturing families and communities. The division is responsible for the development of CDF’s programmatic and policy work on behalf of children most vulnerable to being left behind: those who are abused and neglected, suffer from serious emotional problems, are homeless, or who have other problems that threaten their safety and family security. Nationally, the division plays a leadership role in expanding supports for families to enable them to better nurture and protect their children, preventing family crises from intensifying, and promoting permanent families when crises occur. Through its work on the following issues, the Child Welfare and Mental Health Division is exploring new ways to help communities take broader responsibility for protecting children: child abuse and neglect, foster care and adoption, children’s mental health, parental alcohol and drug abuse, domestic violence, and kinship care. It’s about the KIDS!  NOT parental rights, not supporting a parent’s right to neglect and damage children.  It’s about the kids and THEIR rights. Sherman

Response:

"Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20030305110712.24056.00000054@mb-dh.aol.com…

The solution for DCF is to concentrate on serious cases, and leave the

*fat

kids* alone. Heck, CPS is the most mismanaged, bungled, out of control agency around. Folks mistrust CPS, HHS, DCS, DHR, DYFS more than the IRS. Marion Wright Edelman, founder and head of the Childrens’ Defense Fund

concurs

that it is best to "keep children OUT of the CPS system." Source:  http://www.npr.org

Further, I agree that it is best for children to be kept out of the cps system.  The first and most primary way is for parents to be "fit" and not abuse and neglect their responsibility on behalf of the Rights of the Children.  Children need safety.  Nurturing.  Love.   Giving an unborn child narcotics, for instance, and damaging their little brains as they are forming, is not a responsible and "fit" decision for a parent to make. Making a child part of any subsequent "recovery" of their addict parents is absurd.  They are victims.  Parents should not victimize their children. Real simple.  That would keep them out of the system. Sherm.

Response:

Sherm the source from NPR from Marion Wright Edelman, go to the primary source and hear for yourself. That’s why I included the link. There is an audio file with her stating as such. http://www.npr.org And Ms. Edelman is thinking about THE KIDS.  Her statement reflects that belief. One of the indicators of intelligence is the ability to hold 2 seemingly contradictory statements in one’s mind and make sense out of them. Connect the dots, as it were. When a state abuses children, in the name of *PROTECTING* them, they bear the guilt also. Susan chimed in: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Subject: Re: DCF Chief Notes Progress, But Agency Has Far To Go From: Mrs-K…@webtv.net  (Susan) Date: 3/5/2003 2:37 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <20065-3E6651F6…@storefull-2117.public.lawson.webtv.net Sherm wrote: <snip It’s about the KIDS! NOT parental rights, not supporting a parent’s right to neglect and damage children. It’s about the kids and THEIR rights. Well put Sherman. All I hear from the bios of the children I care for is "me me me".  It seems common amongst child abusers to forget that children have the right to be safe.  When an adult harms a child (IMO) they lose their rights.

http://www.nccpr.org (Reforming foster care in the US)

Response:

I was unable to see any audio file for Ms. Edelman.  ? Where is this primary source? Before you get critical, know that I LIVE the "dots".  Putting the CDF in perspective is that it’s about the kids, right. I agree that in some / many instances, the State intervention is in error and children suffer from poor paid caregiver’s abuse. The children still need to be protected and have their Rights enforced.  We do need to keep them safe.  cps does need reform and restructure.  Being positive about the true and courageous helpers out here would help a lot for beginners.  Perhaps it would help you to do so if you would please hold two contradictory thoughts together at that same time.  Use your head.  And your heart. Sherman. "Fern5827" <fern5…@aol.com

wrote in message

news:20030305193022.28921.00000115@mb-fj.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Sherm the source from NPR from Marion Wright Edelman, go to the primary

source

and hear for yourself. That’s why I included the link. There is an audio file with her stating as such. http://www.npr.org And Ms. Edelman is thinking about THE KIDS.  Her statement reflects that belief. One of the indicators of intelligence is the ability to hold 2 seemingly contradictory statements in one’s mind and make sense out of them. Connect the dots, as it were. When a state abuses children, in the name of *PROTECTING* them, they bear

the

guilt also.

Response:

Sherm wrote:

<snip

It’s about the KIDS! NOT parental rights, not supporting a parent’s right to neglect and damage children. It’s about the kids and THEIR rights.

Well put Sherman. All I hear from the bios of the children I care for is "me me me".  It seems common amongst child abusers to forget that children have the right to be safe.  When an adult harms a child (IMO) they lose their rights.

Response:

The solution for DCF is to concentrate on serious cases, and leave the *fat kids* alone. Heck, CPS is the most mismanaged, bungled, out of control agency around. Folks mistrust CPS, HHS, DCS, DHR, DYFS more than the IRS. Marion Wright Edelman, founder and head of the Childrens’ Defense Fund concurs that it is best to "keep children OUT of the CPS system." Source:  http://www.npr.org

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DCF Chief Notes Progress, But Agency Has Far To Go  By SHERRI ACKERMAN sacker…@tampatrib.com Published: Mar 4, 2003 The same day Jerry Regier put his Oklahoma house on the market, he was asked to resign his new job with the Florida Department of Children and Families. Regier had succeeded Kathleen Kearney in September as the director of a department in turmoil. Gov. Jeb Bush’s call for all department heads to resign in November was a symbolic gesture to mark the start of the governor’s second term; most retained their titles, including Regier. Still, it was another example for him of the uncertainty within one of the nation’s most troublesome bureaucracies. Regier, now a Florida resident, joked last week about his resignation during the second annual Community-Based Care conference in Tampa. The two-day event brought together 600 child welfare workers to discuss the transition of state services into private hands. It’s an idea that has swept the country as government looks to reduce costs while improving care. Regier, a keynote speaker at the state-sponsored conference, completed six months on the job Friday. The same day, DCF announced it had cut in half a backlog of 30,000 child abuse investigations statewide. Although the backlog “is always going to be an issue,” Regier said, this is the first time since April 1999 that the number has been below 15,000. He defended his department’s push to privatize its services, which critics have labeled as passing the buck. “It’s not so much that DCF can’t run the system,” he said. “We’re building a partnership.” Private, community-based agencies have more flexibility to make changes quickly, he said, compared with sluggish governments tied to policies and procedures. “There’s more opportunity for innovation,” he said. “Every state is struggling with its child welfare system. We’re trying to create something stronger.” Criticism And Support Regier weathered controversy in his first few days at DCF after he was linked to religious articles that advocated spanking children hard enough to cause welts and suggested society would be better off if all mothers stayed home. Opponents called for his removal, but Regier responded with “listening tours” in which he met with caseworkers statewide to learn what they thought was wrong with DCF. Not enough funding, too little staff and too many children, most said – as they’ve been pointing out for years. Regier requested an additional $480 million from the state budget to fix the department. That prompted some to view him in a different light. Veteran children’s advocate Jack Levine told Regier during the conference Thursday: “Not only do I respect you in the role you’re playing, I really like you.” Levine said that nevertheless, DCF has miles to go. Foster families need more money and services, and many parents of newborns need more help to keep children out of the system, he said. Regier said DCF is making progress with one of its more obvious problems, the $230 million Home Safenet computer system. Caseworkers have denounced the system designed to help track children, saying it has added too much time to inputting information, which keeps them from visiting families. Regier also cited progress in searching for children missing from state care. He fell short on his promise to find all of the 400 missing last year, locating only about half even after extending the deadline a month. Still, he called the effort a success because DCF works more closely with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. As many as 500 state-supervised children disappear from DCF care each month, he conceded, “and we need to get a handle on that.” But he wants to define missing children by age and whether they are lost, taken by a parent or abducted by a stranger. “I think there are differences that the public doesn’t understand,” he said. “We don’t have 500 missing 2-year-olds. Over 90 percent [of missing teens] have made a choice to be missing. We need to have a discussion on why that choice was made.” Lingering Skepticism Regier supports Bush’s call for local law enforcement to take over child protection investigations by July 2004. Sheriffs in Sarasota, Manatee, Pinellas and Pasco counties – part of DCF’s Suncoast Region – already do so, and Hillsborough County Sheriff Cal Henderson has drafted a $13 million proposal to follow suit. State Rep. Sandra Murman, R-Tampa, said last week that DCF had approved the expenditure, but Henderson said Friday that he hadn’t heard from the department. He said his big concern remains that DCF won’t give him enough money to do the job right. He has good reason to worry, some say. DCF has a long history of low pay and high turnover among staff, said Hillsborough County Commissioner Pat Frank, who dislikes the state’s privatization plan. “There’s no magical solution,” she said. “The sheriff is not cheaper. It’s the state’s responsibility. They’re trying to transfer costs down to local government. What if we can’t find the money?” The commission allocates money to the sheriff, who decides how it’s spent. Frank fears costs not covered by the state will lead to higher property taxes. Three weeks ago, Regier released a reform plan that requires contracts with private agencies by July 1, 2004. Six of DCF’s 14 districts either have contracts or are obtaining them, Regier said. Community-based care agencies have hired 25 percent of DCF’s staff and have taken 30 percent of its clients. Caseloads have dropped from 60-plus to fewer than 25 in pilot programs, but that’s not reason enough for the transition, Regier said. “DCF could tackle that and be successful ourselves,” he said. “But reform generally comes when you do something totally out of the box, not when you take what you have and cut around the edges.” http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGAGERIEVCD.html Barbara has one of the best web site for foster parents at http://www.fosterparents.com/ Barbara has all kind of info for foster parents from online training to a chat room there is also a page with links to  with your state agency. http://www.fosterparenting.com/   There also great info on http://www.fosterclub.com/grownups/index.html You can get tons of support/information here. http://www.kuddlekids.com/ There is also a web ring for foster parents if you go to  http://o.webring.com/webring?ring=fostercarering;list there is a list of sites in ring You can do a net search using http://www.yahoo.com/ http://www.google.com/ You can go to http://www.copernic.com/  and get Copernic 2001 basic for free, it will search  obtain fast, relevant results from the greatest number of information sources 18 and categories available on the Internet!

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believe I would need to perform a personal inspection to determine that… could you arrange that for me? Ziggy

let me look into "it"….do I get a "cut"????? rb Hawk Eye

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No, no… thank you. <— for having an open mind and being willing o really listen to what was said. Ziggy

Zig sometimes my mind is so open the few brains I DO have fall out…LOL rb Hawk Eye

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And big breasts… you forgot the big breasts.

Zigster Made some Bev Hills plastic surgeon RICH I would bet…whatyathink??? rb Hawk Eye

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Name-Twin, please.

gee…I like that…thanks!! funny also that as a kid I would die before allowing anyone to call me Rosie!!! In fact my Daddy probably would have decked them for me…he was one of those into PROPER names for his kids…the first five (out of eight…yikes) did NOT have nicknames!! Wasn’t til I became an auntie..and the little kids couldn’t pronounce my full name…it became "Wosie"….then the grandkids…they call me "grandma Rosie" (they have 3 grandmas!!() funny how one’s perspective changes with the years??? Wozie???  was actually my favorite… the other one.. Hawk Eye

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<giggle fit    My mother, too, rb, mine, too. All these years later it’s still an attention-getter, huh? LOL    I wuz a bit of a tomboy. The best one ever was; "Rose-ma-RIEEE! If you fall outta that tree and break yer neck, I’ll break yer neck!"    Unforgettable, fertrue. Keep makin’ those good choices, Name-Twin, please. Affectionate Hugs from Rosie S. — "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself."  – Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rose-ma-RIE!    LOL, you know how that sounds. It’s ‘cuz of the choices you made. And if ppl. make choices in ignorance, they’re more likely to be bad ones. My GAWD,,,the way you typed that it sounded like the way my mother used to YELL it when I was a kid!! No kidding..you guys..of course I HAD considered choices and lifestyle etc figuring into the equation and of course Ziggy is right that not ALL of one’s genes will carry the bad cancer genes of those before us..etc etc…guess I just hadn’t put it all into my brain in correct order…or something.. geez..rosie..must be the NAME?? thanks guys..for straightening me out..sometimes I need it!!  just don’t tell the hubby!! rb Hawk Eye

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No doctor ever talked to me about addiction until I started taking Oxycontin. Nothing was ever said about addiction when taking darvocets,

Hmmm…what would be the different in long acting vs short acting?? Already discussed in another message… just reminding you that your opinion goes against what experts in the field have stated.

I know that Ziggy (and KNEW you would catch me AGAIN)…I guess my question is still…what keeps ME from being an alcoholic or drug addict…I have a brother who is both (clean …but a tough road)..and about 10 Irish uncles that died of ETOH???  Whilst neither of my parents indulged in either…does it skip a generation (kidding).. rb Hawk Eye

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippage I also thought it a kick when Melanie said "I just take care of my neck myself now..no meds"…yeah right..don’t we ALL wish it were so easy… I think I will just give ol’ Melanie a phone call and see if she can help all of us heal ourselves by taking care of things ourselves.  She must be holding a very big secret that even the doctors don’t know. Sue

  I’m sure she has no idea what a HUGE disservice she did to all who can’t just "heal themselves".  She should have admitted that her diseases was that of addiction, and not her knee or neck – which were obviously okay once they recovered from the initial injury.   I noticed that as soon as she came out of rehab for vicodin, the stories started flying about her drinking on the set, and how it had become out of control..  Yep, she kicked her vicodin habit, and "healed her neck", but she didn’t beat her addiction – or look it squarely in the face. Must be really tough for her..you know, being an attractive well paid movie star, daughter of the lovely Tippi Hedron, and married to Antonio Banderas.  (I can’t seem to tear muster a tear for her  though codeee

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Melanie Griffith is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot!  I have never heard her speak as if she really had a brain! Of course she’s not going to own up to her own problems… blames her ignorance (I didn’t know pills are addictive), genetics, etc. What do you expect?  (rhetorically speaking) Nicole "Eye

 LOL..well said Nicole, I wouldn’t have wasted my time writing about her, had I read your post first!  :-) codeee

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<snippage Must be really tough for her..you know, being an attractive well paid movie star, daughter of the lovely Tippi Hedron, and married to Antonio Banderas.  (I can’t seem to tear muster a tear for her  though codeee

I don’t seem to be able to muster a tear for her either Codeee.  But one thing I could and would do in a heart beat is take that Antonio Banderas off her hands for a day or two or six or eight.  Oh boy, did it get warm in here? Sue We survive together or not at all.

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Maybe she hid her problem too well until it was too late…   There are alot of ppl who start out with legit pain but the medication taking gets out of hand and they find they have crossed that invisible line too late.  I give her alot of credit being in the spotlight for admitting this.   I see it as the *person* not as all chronic pain ppl.

She talked quite a bit about the intrusion of the press in their lives and while I admit, I’m sure that part is true, its commonly known thats just a "cost of doing business" if your an actor or and actress. I bet if you ask any one of them, to give back their millions in exchange for no press, the answer would be "no". My point was that I’m sure she did hide her problem until it was too late, (I’m assuming you are talking about the absence of having problems with getting the meds from the docs), but I would imagine just her public figure connections made the docs less apt to be stingy with meds. As for giving her credit, I don’t see that she gets any extra kudos for speaking in public on the topic, she’s a public figure and it was reported when she entered the clinic. Had she mentioned some of the common problems of having real pain, needing the meds but dealing with the addictive properties, then maybe there was something to get credit for, but to completely write off the issue with "I healed my neck myself", she quickly and simply branded "all" people who needs continuing pain meds as addicts. It was all in the quick dismissal with "I healed myself". If you didn’t watch the show its hard to get a real understanding of the disservice she did us all.

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Melanie Griffith is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot!  I have never heard her speak as if she really had a brain! Of course she’s not going to own up to her own problems… blames her ignorance (I didn’t know pills are addictive), genetics, etc. What do you expect?  (rhetorically speaking)

One quickly gleams the fact that she’s certainly not a Sharon Stone. She could use some vocabulary lessons…she kept using the same adjectives over and over again and reaching for words to help her describe what she wanted to say. In one instance, she spoke two rambling, chopped up sentences to say "words can’t describe"…I remember thinking…"just say words can’t describe".  :-) She was frantically searching for a way to say it as she spoke. I will admit, I write much better than I speak so I sympathized with her somewhat over this, plus I’d never been on Larry King live either. While I was a fan of her mother, I’ve never been a fan of hers. She’s kinda like Jennifer Lopez in my book…each character they play ends up all sounding and acting the same, which means I don’t think either can actually "act" as in taking on the characters they are playing. I just don’t think there’s alot "there" other than looks and hype.

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Rose-ma-RIE!     LOL, you know how that sounds. It’s ‘cuz of the choices you made. And if ppl. make choices in ignorance, they’re more likely to be bad ones.      My brother got more of the better physical genes, (he’s not disabled) but I got more of the smarts. <grins Just us two sibs. He doesn’t have kids AND doesn’t drink ( both by choice) and I chose teetotaler hubbies (2 so far<wink) so the hope is the cycle of alcoholism ends this generation. By choice, actually.     If you know depression runs in yer family, drink and drugs are bad choices. It’s up to families to make sure the offspring aren’t making ignorant choices.     Hope that answers the why for ya.  Agreeing with Zig that being the social creatures we are, the group dynamics ( families, co-workers and friends) we have have lots to do with it.    K? <smiles The Other One Hugs from Rosie — "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself."  – Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No doctor ever talked to me about addiction until I started taking Oxycontin. Nothing was ever said about addiction when taking darvocets, Hmmm…what would be the different in long acting vs short acting?? Already discussed in another message… just reminding you that your opinion goes against what experts in the field have stated. I know that Ziggy (and KNEW you would catch me AGAIN)…I guess my question is still…what keeps ME from being an alcoholic or drug addict…I have a brother who is both (clean …but a tough road)..and about 10 Irish uncles that died of ETOH???  Whilst neither of my parents indulged in either…does it skip a generation (kidding).. rb Hawk Eye

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Rose-ma-RIE!    LOL, you know how that sounds. It’s ‘cuz of the choices you made. And if ppl. make choices in ignorance, they’re more likely to be bad ones.

My GAWD,,,the way you typed that it sounded like the way my mother used to YELL it when I was a kid!! No kidding..you guys..of course I HAD considered choices and lifestyle etc figuring into the equation and of course Ziggy is right that not ALL of one’s genes will carry the bad cancer genes of those before us..etc etc…guess I just hadn’t put it all into my brain in correct order…or something.. geez..rosie..must be the NAME?? thanks guys..for straightening me out..sometimes I need it!!  just don’t tell the hubby!! rb Hawk Eye

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<snippage  But I have learned that it is just as hard on the addict who is trying to

over come their addiction as it is on the people around them who love them. Ronnie

That is why I included the addict in how it goes to the core of a persons soul.  My daughter and her husband have been battling this for about 5 years now. Hopefully this time they can win.  Good luck to your son also! Sue We survive together or not at all.

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Sue tried to email you but cant get the no spam off  and it just keeps coming back.  Just to talk about our mutual happenings.. Ronnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippage  But I have learned that it is just as hard on the addict who is trying to over come their addiction as it is on the people around them who love them. Ronnie That is why I included the addict in how it goes to the core of a persons soul.  My daughter and her husband have been battling this for about 5 years now. Hopefully this time they can win.  Good luck to your son also! Sue We survive together or not at all.

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Heya, Other Rosie,     I think you’re leaving out part of the equation. Yes, we inherit the predisposition to things, but environment has effects, too. High fat diet, HRT, low fiber diet, sugar highs and lows all are environmental factors that contribute to developing breast cancer, colon cancer, diabetes respectively. Even more so in the predisposed. Our Western lifestyle contributes LOTS.     Take the addict outta the enabling environment and the chances for recovery are greatly improved. Marrying the hard drinkin’ Don Johnson twice helped Melanie Griffith not at all when it came to kicking booze. There is no drinking at my home, my kidz’ chances are better to avoid alcohol from not being raised with it.     It’s the education about one’s ancestry and the extra caution of avoiding the environmental hazards, esp. when the genes predispose, that can help fight addiction much more than any gov. programs. I see it as a family thing and more than just the individual.     I eat my Grape-Nuts every day, hoping to avoid losing part of my colon like my aunt did.    Knowing, and doing the right things about it, make the difference.     Like I said before, the neck was just an excuse for her to stay addicted. But she had lots of genetic and environmental triggers.     It’s easier to not do cocaine when there’s no crackhouse on your street, ya know? But hard to give up the other white stuff when you were raised eating cereals that were half sugar or more.    Ya know?  I admit I’m helpless thus far over my addictions to caffeine and nicotine. But the addiction to my hubby is normal and good. <g Nature and Nurture Hugs from Rosie — "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself."  – Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most are trying to self medicate  some form of mental illness.  I’ve seen it happen in 5 It has been proven that predispostion to things like depression, bi-polar disorder, and such stuff does run in families.   Please don’t I just don’t put alcohol and drug abuse into the "same" class as depression, bi-polar and such stuff" …which truly are mental illnesses…and I don’t argue the self medicating to hide pain either (be it mental or physical pain) I don’t know of a family that does NOT have a member or three with alcohol or drug problems…my own included..yet the REST of us do not…if "predisposition to" was the issue…most of us would be in that class… I am far more concerned with my risk of breast cancer (mother died age 53)..colon cancer(grandma age 60) and heart disease (dad age 62)…now those are things I can get my head around.. If this is the case she never really had much a problem inthe first place did she? this precisely is the case…did she ever have a REAL problem in the first place?? rb Hawk Eye

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Sue we have addiction in our family with our youngest son who is 35 now. It started at 13 and like you have known the heartache that the disease brings with it.  He has been clean and sober now since Feb.  This is why I posted what I did before.  But I have learned that it is just as hard on the addict who is trying to over come their addiction as it is on the people around them who love them. Ronnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippage  Please don’t  let a twit of a starlet make it mean less than it really does. That certainly was not my intention Ruada. I too have been hit with the drug addiction problem and how it affects the family and how it can create utter destruction to those who are the addicts, and utter hopelessness to those who love them.  The pain of the children goes so deep when they can’t be with their parents. I touched on this subject previously about my 28 year old daughter and her husband.  How I have taken in her children two times while they tried to clean up. This is approximately 3 years of having my wonderful grandchildren with me.  They are with me now as a matter of fact, since February this time. My daughter and her husband have been clean for about 6 months now and are ready to be a family again.  The children will move home to their parents over the Thanksgiving weekend.  I will continue to support my daughter in every way I possibly can.  I will be there for my grandchildren for the rest of their life if need be.  They need the security of knowing they have a safe and loving home they can come live in.  If their home becomes chaotic again, they know they can seek safety and shelter and love at Grandma Sue’s. So Ruada, I know from a very personal experience what addiction does to each person involved.  It reaches down to the core of a persons soul, the soul of everyone it touches, the parents of the addict, the children of the addict, the siblings of the addict, the friends of the addict, the extended family of the addict and most of all the addict themselves. This is not a flame Ruada, just letting you know that many of us have been touched by the pain of addiction in our families.  It is not something we talk of often.  It can be too painful. Sue We survive together or not at all.

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Most are trying to self medicate  some form of mental illness.  I’ve seen it happen in 5 It has been proven that predispostion to things like depression, bi-polar disorder, and such stuff does run in families.   Please don’t

I just don’t put alcohol and drug abuse into the "same" class as depression, bi-polar and such stuff" …which truly are mental illnesses…and I don’t argue the self medicating to hide pain either (be it mental or physical pain) I don’t know of a family that does NOT have a member or three with alcohol or drug problems…my own included..yet the REST of us do not…if "predisposition to" was the issue…most of us would be in that class… I am far more concerned with my risk of breast cancer (mother died age 53)..colon cancer(grandma age 60) and heart disease (dad age 62)…now those are things I can get my head around.. If this is the case she never really had much a problem inthe first place did she?

this precisely is the case…did she ever have a REAL problem in the first place?? rb Hawk Eye

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Melanie Griffith (or Griffin?) was the guest. At one time he asked her about

Yeah I saw it too…and my blood also started to boil… When this chick FIRST had the "pain pill" problem I read somewhere how ,,in her words "it just happened…I didn’t KNOW the pills were addicting..no one told me.."" etc etc… yeah right??? I agree with the "other Rosie" that whilst there well be an element of genetic predispostion in "addictive personalities" be it alcohol or drug…it is more a behavorial issue…we each must accept responsibility for what decisions we make..quit blaming our bad behavior on "genes" (save the gene whine for predisposition to diabetes and breast cancer )… I also thought it a kick when Melanie said "I just take care of my neck myself now..no meds"…yeah right..don’t we ALL wish it were so easy… rb Hawk Eye

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<snippage I also thought it a kick when Melanie said "I just take care of my neck myself now..no meds"…yeah right..don’t we ALL wish it were so easy…

I think I will just give ol’ Melanie a phone call and see if she can help all of us heal ourselves by taking care of things ourselves.  She must be holding a very big secret that even the doctors don’t know. Sue We survive together or not at all.

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Melanie Griffith is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot!  I have never heard her speak as if she really had a brain! Of course she’s not going to own up to her own problems… blames her ignorance (I didn’t know pills are addictive), genetics, etc. What do you expect?  (rhetorically speaking) Nicole "Eye

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<snippage  Please don’t  let a twit of a starlet make it mean less than it really

does. That certainly was not my intention Ruada. I too have been hit with the drug addiction problem and how it affects the family and how it can create utter destruction to those who are the addicts, and utter hopelessness to those who love them.  The pain of the children goes so deep when they can’t be with their parents.   I touched on this subject previously about my 28 year old daughter and her husband.  How I have taken in her children two times while they tried to clean up. This is approximately 3 years of having my wonderful grandchildren with me.  They are with me now as a matter of fact, since February this time.   My daughter and her husband have been clean for about 6 months now and are ready to be a family again.  The children will move home to their parents over the Thanksgiving weekend.  I will continue to support my daughter in every way I possibly can.  I will be there for my grandchildren for the rest of their life if need be.  They need the security of knowing they have a safe and loving home they can come live in.  If their home becomes chaotic again, they know they can seek safety and shelter and love at Grandma Sue’s.   So Ruada, I know from a very personal experience what addiction does to each person involved.  It reaches down to the core of a persons soul, the soul of everyone it touches, the parents of the addict, the children of the addict, the siblings of the addict, the friends of the addict, the extended family of the addict and most of all the addict themselves.   This is not a flame Ruada, just letting you know that many of us have been touched by the pain of addiction in our families.  It is not something we talk of often.  It can be too painful. Sue We survive together or not at all.

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Maybe she hid her problem too well until it was too late…   There are alot of ppl who start out with legit pain but the medication taking gets out of hand and they find they have crossed that invisible line too late.  I give her alot of credit being in the spotlight for admitting this.   I see it as the *person* not as all chronic pain ppl. Ronnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Watched a bit of Larry King last night. Anyone else see it? Melanie Griffith (or Griffin?) was the guest. At one time he asked her about her recent addiction to pain meds. She said it started with a knee injury, then her neck started hurting. She mentioned some meds, the only ones I recognize for Darocet and Norco. She said she realized she was addicted and her husband did too. One night when he was holding her, supporting her while she was having the shakes, he said he’d support her when she was ready to seek help. She checked into a clinic for a week. The thing that made me the maddest, was that she said after she was off the meds, she healed herself. Just like that…said it like her neck problems were that cut and dried…she healed herself. Anyway, can’t remember all but in her few short statements about her pain, and her meds, and her addiction, it was like branding us all with the stigma that pains meds are an endless cycle and we should all be able to heal ourselves. He did ask her why, when her life seems so good, would she turn to drugs. She said "genetics". THen mentioned her mother…started to say something like she didn’t have a good support system with her mother, then quickly said something like she loved her mother and she was a good person. They didn’t stay on the subject long, but I just felt sad that she certainly didn’t do anything to help the stigma on pain meds for those that need it. I felt she is one with a addictive personality (and she’d been in alcohol rehab in the past) and because she had a problem with them, she basically tarnished the whole regime. Guess if we all had their millions, we might be able to heal ourselves too, eh? If we had housekeepers, nannies, and cooks, we might be able to baby ourselves enough to ease some of our pains, if we had her resources, and attention from the docs, we might be able to do the same thing. Do you think any doc ever made her feel like a drug addict when she was first injured or afterwards…until she admitted she had problem? Anyone else see the show?

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     Yeah, I saw it too. Always have CNN on, even if only for background noise.      She did say that an addict will use any excuse. So she did kinda dismiss the physical probs. as just that kind of excuse.     She also stated that her father died at age 67 from alcoholism. Addictive personalities can run in families. As the child of an alcoholic, I’m 300 to 500 times more likely to be an alcoholic if I were to take up drinking. Lucky for me I knew that young and never did, or I prolly wouldn’t be typing to ya now.      The most obvious thing about addiction is some is never enuff…but with pain meds.the right amount (or slightly less) is enuff for functioning. If you really know the person, you know if they’re acting as an abuser, rather than a user, of the drug.     It’s the responsibility of the person predisposed to addiction to keep it under control. I never got hooked on Darvos because I’d cut the pills in half myself in order to keep the highest degree of pain tolerance I could and not get to the point where the Darvos wouldn’t work at all any more. It’s SO typical of pain people to keep a stash for just in case. An addict has got to have it all, none to spare. Yeah, I still have leftover Darvos. LOL     Now I’m on neurontin only, and it doesn’t work the same way. If more young people knew if they had the predisposition, they might not get caught in the being addicted downward spiral.    I also spent years tracking down what’s physically wrong, with different doctors,  in order to have a paper trail of proof so that the pain couldn’t be argued about. If possible, that’s often what it takes…but not really a list as long as Lem’s!     That’s my take on it, from the perspective I’ve had. Warm Hugs from Rosie — "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself."  – Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Watched a bit of Larry King last night. Anyone else see it? Melanie Griffith (or Griffin?) was the guest. At one time he asked her about her recent addiction to pain meds. She said it started with a knee injury, then her neck started hurting. She mentioned some meds, the only ones I recognize for Darocet and Norco. She said she realized she was addicted and her husband did too. One night when he was holding her, supporting her while she was having the shakes, he said he’d support her when she was ready to seek help. She checked into a clinic for a week. The thing that made me the maddest, was that she said after she was off the meds, she healed herself. Just like that…said it like her neck problems were that cut and dried…she healed herself. Anyway, can’t remember all but in her few short statements about her pain, and her meds, and her addiction, it was like branding us all with the stigma that pains meds are an endless cycle and we should all be able to heal ourselves. He did ask her why, when her life seems so good, would she turn to drugs. She said "genetics". THen mentioned her mother…started to say something like she didn’t have a good support system with her mother, then quickly said something like she loved her mother and she was a good person. They didn’t stay on the subject long, but I just felt sad that she certainly didn’t do anything to help the stigma on pain meds for those that need it. I felt she is one with a addictive personality (and she’d been in alcohol rehab in the past) and because she had a problem with them, she basically tarnished the whole regime. Guess if we all had their millions, we might be able to heal ourselves too, eh? If we had housekeepers, nannies, and cooks, we might be able to baby ourselves enough to ease some of our pains, if we had her resources, and attention from the docs, we might be able to do the same thing. Do you think any doc ever made her feel like a drug addict when she was first injured or afterwards…until she admitted she had problem? Anyone else see the show?

Response:

Watched a bit of Larry King last night. Anyone else see it? Melanie Griffith (or Griffin?) was the guest. At one time he asked her about her recent addiction to pain meds. She said it started with a knee injury, then her neck started hurting. She mentioned some meds, the only ones I recognize for Darocet and Norco. She said she realized she was addicted and her husband did too. One night when he was holding her, supporting her while she was having the shakes, he said he’d support her when she was ready to seek help. She checked into a clinic for a week. The thing that made me the maddest, was that she said after she was off the meds, she healed herself. Just like that…said it like her neck problems were that cut and dried…she healed herself. Anyway, can’t remember all but in her few short statements about her pain, and her meds, and her addiction, it was like branding us all with the stigma that pains meds are an endless cycle and we should all be able to heal ourselves. He did ask her why, when her life seems so good, would she turn to drugs. She said "genetics". THen mentioned her mother…started to say something like she didn’t have a good support system with her mother, then quickly said something like she loved her mother and she was a good person. They didn’t stay on the subject long, but I just felt sad that she certainly didn’t do anything to help the stigma on pain meds for those that need it. I felt she is one with a addictive personality (and she’d been in alcohol rehab in the past) and because she had a problem with them, she basically tarnished the whole regime. Guess if we all had their millions, we might be able to heal ourselves too, eh? If we had housekeepers, nannies, and cooks, we might be able to baby ourselves enough to ease some of our pains, if we had her resources, and attention from the docs, we might be able to do the same thing. Do you think any doc ever made her feel like a drug addict when she was first injured or afterwards…until she admitted she had problem? Anyone else see the show?

Response: