Question:

Wow! I just posted the second installment of our trip report (it went through twice, sorry

Question:

HOWEDY marybeth, You’ve made a slight error, the question was WHO SAID THIS? The Puppy Wizard didn’t write that post you’ll find on google, no dHOWEt.

I get e-mail from Mark Shaw telling me to killfile Jerry Howe.  Do I want to be involved in anyone’s mental warfare?  I don’t take this seriously anymore and I do not give out my personal e-mail address

due to idiot’s that feel free to e-mail me on it. What do you think about that? I’m only here on occasion to see if anything useful is ever posted, but if I really want help? This is the last place I would go. But you’re here every day, all day, and all night.

Right. That’s HOWE COME it’s hugely unlikely The Puppy Wizard woulda wrote that. You post around the clock, dear.

INDEEDY. The Puppy Wizard trains and rehabilitates problem dogs all over the Whole Wild World for FREE from sittin right here, stark ravin nekkid. Methinks you have a serious computer addiction,

The Whole Wild World is awake 24/7. That’s where you gota BE if you wanna influence folks. Like Nevyn from AU and Paul from NZ, and folks lookin for training help for their dogs like Misty, whose dog you was instrumental in KILLIN by lying to her as you’ve done countless times in order to defend your alleged right to jerk and choke dogs on pronged spiked pinch choke and shock collars and beat and lock dogs in boxes and call that training. nevermind

Misty may blame herself, but you know your lies KILLED Peaches. anything to do with dogs…..Shame, that.

You can’t post here noMOORE. Hey howdy, ya forgot to switch your name.

The Puppy Wizard has NEVER posted anonymously… but you won’t stop LYIN abHOWET it. PROVE WON ANONYMOUSE POST. PROVE WON SOCK PUPPETT. PROVE WON FORGERIE. PROVE WON TESTIMONIAL THAT CANNOT BE TRACED TO THE ORIGINATOR… YOU CAN’T. NOW GO FIND  A GROUP TO PLAY HURTIN DOGS IN, CAUSE YOU CAN’T DO THAT HERE ON The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Forum, where EVERYBODY GETS 100% TOTAL CONTROL, NEARLY INSTANTLY, OR THE PUPPY WIZARD WILL GET THE HEEL HOWETA THIS BUSINESS. O.K.?  Funny you always get caught impersonating another person,

PROVE WON INSTNANCE, AND The Puppy Wizard DISAPPEARS! standing up for yourself.

There is NOT another trainer in history with the kinds of testimonials The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual COMMANDS. You sez The Puppy Wizard WROTE THEM HISSELF? INDEEDY, marybeth. HE DID WRITE EVERY TESTIMONIAL HISSELF, IN THE TEXT of HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual. I could care less about you, and what ppl think of you.

As it should be. The Puppy Wizard’s WORK speaks for HISSELF. You’re a liar and dog abuser and you can’t post here noMOORE. The Puppy Wizard sez you’re MARKED FOR LIFE.       Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue, Animal       Commissioner Brevard Co FL, writes:       Hi Jerry,       I received email from Mark Shaw on 10/6 which I just read       today. Sorry I didn’t have time to get to it sooner. We       have had a lot going on in our area concerning animals.       We formed a new Task Force to address spay/neuter, pet       overpopulation and animal abuse. I needed to do a lot of       research before the first meeting and time was just not       available for anything else.       Anyway the letter went on to say that we are in       collusion, I tried to defraud him, and have sent none of       the materials that he has asked for although he has yet       to furnish the P. O. Box number that he wanted them sent       to in the first place. He goes on to state that I am no       longer eligible for the "fictions reward." All of this is       in answer to postings that prove I was "sharing" his       email with you which in his opinion was a breach of good       manners. His email only had terms and conditions of the       reward which I would consider "public information."       Be that as it may, I would like to state that you had my       permission to post any email I have sent you regarding       DDR including this email.       I’m very sorry that you have to put up with this type of       situation from someone that obviously never intended to       make good on his reward offer in the first place.       I had a call from a friend of mine with a very aggressive       cat. I have loaned her my DDR for a few weeks to see if       it will calm JR down. I will let you know the results.       She goes to the same holistic vet that I go to and he is       also interested.       In case Mark does post to the list again I would like to       say that I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as       I know it has helped my dogs and cats. I have entirely       too much to do, to worry about his opinions or reward.       The only reason I was willing to apply for the reward was       on your behalf as I do think your product is a valuable       tool in helping with aggression and other behavior       problems.       I am in Feral Cat Network (we spay and neuter       approximately 100 feral cats a month), I am also a member       of a local AKC dog obedience club, member of a local AKC       agility club, president of Pet Rescue, board member of       the Alliance for Care and Welfare of Animals (on the       board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from       AKC dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager,       head of animal control, director of two different       shelters, etc.) and Space Coast Feline Network       http://www.spacecoastfelinenetwork.com       I listed these not to be on an ego trip but to let Mark       know that I am involved with animals and have very little       time to play games with him also I would not recommend       your product if I did not believe in it.       Please feel free to post this email as it has no       copyright on it as did Mark Shaw’s last email to me.       Take care Jerry and don’t let the Mark’s of the world get       you down.       Elaine       Thank you, Elaine. I have been trying to educate the       mark’s of this world, with some occasional successes. I       guess that’s variable reinforcement?       Yours, Jerry. Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue, Animal Commissioner      Brevard Co FL, writes: Sep 9, 2000      "I ordered from Jerry a long time ago.. He was helpful and      the order was filled promptly. Yes, Doggie Do Right does      indeed exist.      I "had" a very aggressive female Pit.. She was showing      aggression not only towards Dok, Rhodesian Ridgeback,      but our cats and even us.      She now plays with Dok, even to the point of allowing him      to take a toy or bone from her. She no longer shows any      aggression towards us. She is showing some aggression      towards the cats but that is down to a warning growl.      It is not just my opinion that all this aggression existed      before Doggie Do Right as we were advised by three vets      to euthanize her.      I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it      has helped my dogs and cats. I do think your product is a      valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior      problems.      I am in Feral CatNetwork (we spay and neuter approximately      100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC      dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club,      president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for      Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county      commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat      club, assistant County manager, head of animal control,      director of two different shelters, etc.) and Space      Coast Feline Network http://www.spacecoastfelinenetwork.com      Thanks, Elaine,      Hi Jerry,      I wrote to you a week or so ago about the unit. I have since      borrowed one from Elaine Mc Clung. She speaks very      highly of it.      So, I brought it home and plugged it in. Of course, I      wanted it to come on, all the barking stop, and have every      one immediately fall to the floor in little comas for a few      hours. Well, after I got all 27 of them to be quiet, still no      comas. But, it had only been 36 seconds at that point. So,      I gave it a little longer. Still no comas. Was this really      going to work? I mean, I do have an unusual situation.      So, by bedtime, a few hours later. I started to notice just      how many were asleep already – with their feet in the air! I      started to have hope. During the night, all was calm. In the      morning when I got up, only a few of them WALKED quietly      to the door to go out. Not the usual evacuation.      I had the unit from Sunday afternoon until Tuesday      Morning. I was certainly pleased with the night effect. I      wasn’t so sure about the amount of the day time effect.      Until I took it back. Within half an hour, the monsters had      resurfaced. I wondered if I could break into Elaine’s house      and if she would notice      I know another person who does dog rescue. She rescues      Beagles. She has 23 in an 1100 square foot house. God      bless her. She is interested to see if it will work for her. I      also spoke to someone else who does cat rescue, and      she is interested. The cat rescue people have monthly      meetings. Maybe Elaine could give a word or two about it.      So, if there are any words of advice you can send my way      about the best way to use it in my case, I would appreciate      it. I of course wanted to keep it on the highest setting, but      don’t know if that is advised, even with my situation of so      many new ones coming

… read more »

Response:

I get e-mail from Mark Shaw telling me to killfile Jerry Howe.  Do I want to be involved in anyone’s mental warfare?  I don’t take this seriously anymore and I do not give out my personal e-mail address due to idiot’s that feel free to e-mail me on it. What do you think about that? I’m only here on occasion to see if anything useful is ever posted, but if I really want help? This is the last place I would go. Lynn K, and her minions play the bitchiest mind games with people after having read numerous threads trying to follow along on a topic that mattered. Her team you will learn all there names soon I’m sure, they all stick together like they are in KinderCare and…oh…if you talk to Jerry Howe, watch out. They will get out their little hate machine guns and start pissing and moaning and attack you daily.  They even set their alarm clocks and have groups I’m sure…who can we attack today?????  Kudos…….

Response:

HOWEDY marybeth,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I get e-mail from Mark Shaw telling me to killfile Jerry Howe.  Do I want to be involved in anyone’s mental warfare?  I don’t take this seriously anymore and I do not give out my personal e-mail address due to idiot’s that feel free to e-mail me on it. What do you think about that? I’m only here on occasion to see if anything useful is ever posted, but if I really want help? This is the last place I would go. But you’re here every day, all day, and all night.

The question was, "WHO SAID THAT?" You post around the clock, dear.

Yeah. That’s to discredit you and your lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward pals.  Methinks you have a serious computer addiction,

You’re a liar and dog abuser, marybeth. You’re obsessed with The Puppy Wizard. You been JERRYIZED, marybeth. nevermind anything to do with dogs…..Shame, that.

YOU HURT DOGS AND LIE ABHOWET IT. Hey howdy, ya forgot to switch your name.

That so? Funny you always get caught impersonating another person,

INEEDY? CITES PLEASE? The Puppy Wizard has NEVER posted anonyMOUSELY.  standing up for yourself.

CITES, please? Show us some of The Puppy Wizard’s FORGERIES? I could care less about you,

Your postin history will show you’re OBSESSED! and what ppl think of you.

The Puppy Wizard’s Archives will prove you’re a liar and dog abuser. Just find it funny that you take so much time tearing down ppl, or rather ATTEMPTING to do so, and we’re ALL still here, ninnyboy.

That so? Your old pals are mostly all gone. Yup, YEARS after you’ve claimed to get all of us out of here.

Most of the old expert liars and abusers are GONE. We got a few new dog abusers like marcel and leah.. <YAWN

Should fix that.. Idle threats, and not a chance in the world, but keep trying, it may keep you out of other trouble, and off the streets.

You’re a mental case, according to The Puppy Wizard’s Archives. You seem to care so much about yours being the ONLY path to training a dog,

Right! That’s on account of HOWER 100% NEAR INSTANT SUCCESS RECORD REPORTED RIGHT HERE by The Puppy Wizard’s FORGERIES and SOCK PUPPETTS. it really pushes you over the edge, if anyone mentions another way, and YES non-abusive ways.

CITES? Why not take a walk with your dogs, if you do have some. Must be a nice day, go for a swim, lighten up and enjoy your summer. Keep posting away, you don’t bother me.

You been JERRYIZED. Happy Summer! MaryBeth Oh and PS, Ceilidh tried to eat poop out of Zack’s butt once, I try to get her to do it again, will save $$ on dog food! )

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up" sindy "don’t let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ’s pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I’d Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn’t HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn’t Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And  Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few  Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING is COURTEOUS? "I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently as possible. What  does this mean?" Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude. "When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray one squirt directly into the dog’s mouth and walk away. The dog won’t be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue your normal behavior." You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?   –Mike Dufort     author of the zero selling book     "Courteous Canines" You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck? Yeah. When I preload my dog’s mouth with bitter apple, suppose I don’t get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey? Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can’t HURT it? "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab’s Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach. Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch…   "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is   something you twisted out of context, because you   are full of bizarro manure."            "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper             wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,  less            tractable dogs may require you to progress to            striking them more sharply," lying frosty dahl,            ethical breeder, expert trainer. You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?          "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And         Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump         With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,          discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors. Perhaps the mom dog didn’t want her babies HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS? "John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the rump with a training stick while holding him partially off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back to the line and cast him back to the dummies." The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies to SAVE THEM from a fate like that is COMMENDABLE. We’re gonna teach folks THAT AIN’T NORMAL…           Jerome Bigge writes:           I do know that hitting, hurting           your dog will often make the           dog either aggressive or a fear           biter, neither of which we want to do.           And neither does anyone else,           Jerome.  No matter           what Jerry Howe states. "Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience.           You’re scary Marilyn.           Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.  I           feel very sorry for her and her family. "His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce, Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.           BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt,           please provide a quote (an original quote,           not from one of Jerry  Howe’s heavily edited           diatribes) that shows a regular poster           promoting or using an abusive form of           training. BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!           –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ENJOYED reading your book, and AGREED with what you had to say. I find it sick to hear what people do with their dogs. Keep in mind that everything he says that the regular posters of this ng do to their dogs are lies. All of it.  Every last bit. All of it? Ear pinching? Shock collars? Spiked chokers? The regulars lie more in their denials than Howe does in his accusing of them. Uh, Frank?  Who do you see denying anything? Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself would see denials when everyone has Jerry killfiled and therefore don’t even read his posts, let alone respond to them.

          Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:           When you           compare using sound and praise to solve a           problem with using shock collars, hanging,           and punishment how can you criticize the           use of sound?           There’s nothing more to be said, then.           You’ve made up your mind.           But you’ve impressed me by mentioning that           you’re a professor with 30 years of experience.            So, can you cite some examples of people           recommending "shock collars, hanging, and           punishment"? BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!           —           –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog. You think matty’s playin with a full goddamned deck? matty’s NOT a liar and dog abuser. Isn’t that true, Marilyn? Of course not, but THIS IS: "Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn’t mean slap,"  professora gingold.             "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is             something you twisted out of context, because you             are full of bizarro manure." Sez on our FAQ’S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw him down by his ears and climb all over it like a raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar … read more »

Response:

Question:

T about it.  i’ve seen her 10 times now and she only seems to want to talk about my addictions…..says we can’t move forward until i stop "addicting". in the meantime, my temper flares and i’m hurtin’/mutilatin’ myself.

Response:

I’m sorry to hear that you’re having such a hard time. :O( I’m not clear on what you mean by "addicting", could you elaborate. If this "addicting" is substance use-related, I’d have to agree with your T that the substance use needs to be addressed as so many things can be marginally and greatly affected by the use of substances which alter consciousness, eetc, including having intensified emotional states and poor impulse control which can lead to hurting oneself. SofT i should tell T about it. i’ve seen her 10 times now and she only seems to want to talk about my addictions….. says we can’t move forward until i stop "addicting". in the meantime, my temper flares and i’m hurtin’/mutilatin’ myself.

– For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per day.  i she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body etc…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry to hear that you’re having such a hard time. :O( I’m not clear on what you mean by "addicting", could you elaborate. If this "addicting" is substance use-related, I’d have to agree with your T that the substance use needs to be addressed as so many things can be marginally and greatly affected by the use of substances which alter consciousness, eetc, including having intensified emotional states and poor impulse control which can lead to hurting oneself. SofT i should tell T about it. i’ve seen her 10 times now and she only seems to want to talk about my addictions….. says we can’t move forward until i stop "addicting". in the meantime, my temper flares and i’m hurtin’/mutilatin’ myself. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per day. i she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body etc…

we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per day. i she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

Hello again, thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per day.

Oh, that’s right. I remember now. Sorry for the lapse in mem about that. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it…… 12:30am now….. oops.

I take it she and you have mutually agreed that your use is detrimental or should I say, I hope it’s been mutual. :O) other addiction im talkin bout is sxl addiction……

I see. Thanks for clarifying. the m*tilation part is c*ttin off circulation to a part of my body etc…

*nodding*  I don’t know the specifics to how extreme this behavior is for you. I know as a child we did things like tie a string really tight around a finger and feel it go numb and watch it turn blue and stuff. We always untied it too before anything severe took place, you know, just doing kid stuff. I take it what you’re talking about is much severe and more concerning for you. It seems to me that you are concerned enough about hurting yourself to post here about it, prolly best to talk to your T; she is involved in your life to be of some help to you, maybe she can help. I know this is rough stuff and that it is difficult to trust a T you barely know. Good luck. SofT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry to hear that you’re having such a hard time. :O( I’m not clear on what you mean by "addicting", could you elaborate. If this "addicting" is substance use-related, I’d have to agree with your T that the substance use needs to be addressed as so many things can be marginally and greatly affected by the use of substances which alter consciousness, eetc, including having intensified emotional states and poor impulse control which can lead to hurting oneself. SofT i should tell T about it. i’ve seen her 10 times now and she only seems to want to talk about my addictions….. says we can’t move forward until i stop "addicting". in the meantime, my temper flares and i’m hurtin’/mutilatin’ myself. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or

– For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read.

just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at up for awhile to calm me down. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

thanks SofT, yes it is hard to share with stranger…… takes time to trust i guess…… and i am not trusting…. i am scared and like to hide….. i dont like reality, feelings, dealing with it……. i really dont like curfew, dont like dealing with my addictions bec i need them to survive and escape reality. i don tlike talkin about the sex probs/issues bec it is embarassin and i dont accept myself. i reckon i should tell T also and will probably opt for easiest way which would be writin her a letter with the info in it…….  hmmm and lettin her read it at 5 mins to end of session so she has no time to respond so i can run out door. ? heh gnite. tomp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello again, thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per day. Oh, that’s right. I remember now. Sorry for the lapse in mem about that. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it…… 12:30am now….. oops. I take it she and you have mutually agreed that your use is detrimental or should I say, I hope it’s been mutual. :O) other addiction im talkin bout is sxl addiction…… I see. Thanks for clarifying. the m*tilation part is c*ttin off circulation to a part of my body etc… *nodding*  I don’t know the specifics to how extreme this behavior is for you. I know as a child we did things like tie a string really tight around a finger and feel it go numb and watch it turn blue and stuff. We always untied it too before anything severe took place, you know, just doing kid stuff. I take it what you’re talking about is much severe and more concerning for you. It seems to me that you are concerned enough about hurting yourself to post here about it, prolly best to talk to your T; she is involved in your life to be of some help to you, maybe she can help. I know this is rough stuff and that it is difficult to trust a T you barely know. Good luck. SofT I’m sorry to hear that you’re having such a hard time. :O( I’m not clear on what you mean by "addicting", could you elaborate. If this "addicting" is substance use-related, I’d have to agree with your T that the substance use needs to be addressed as so many things can be marginally and greatly affected by the use of substances which alter consciousness, eetc, including having intensified emotional states and poor impulse control which can lead to hurting oneself. SofT i should tell T about it. i’ve seen her 10 times now and she only seems to want to talk about my addictions….. says we can’t move forward until i stop "addicting". in the meantime, my temper flares and i’m hurtin’/mutilatin’ myself. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that.

then what do you have to lose by telling her? and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this……

fwiw, i use the computer to distract myself. it’s kind of amusing bc my Ts think that’s a good thing. i’m not so sure. in your case, it’s sounds like something similar is going on but your T thinks it’s bad. there are usually reasons that ppl have certain addictions. they usually have an important positive function as well as negative consequences. i don’t think it makes sense to stop them without *carefully* monitoring the consequences. i think ppl talked about that here when you posted about this before. (IIRC ppl gave your T the benefit of the doubt and assumed that she was encouraging you to stop using the computer in order to see what would happen if you did that and maybe work on some of the issues that came up. has she done that? if not, i think there’s a problem with her approach.) IOW, i don’t think most ppl could deal with stopping a true addiction cold turkey without serious fallout. i don’t think most ppl could "deal with" it without a lot of monitoring and support. are you doing that in t’py? if not, i’m not sure what your T is up to. i’d want to konw bc it doesn’t make sense to me. i also agree with astri that your T probably needs a lot more info about you before deciding whether to focus on addiction or something else and how to deal with whatever you two decide you should focus on first. i also think that the two of you need to collectively decide what you’ll work on and when. it should be a collective decision (with all of your parts and her), not something that she decides for you. just MO. e – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at up for awhile to calm me down. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i  etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no  to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for  a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as  solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t  help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk  on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it  time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping  mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes  too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

thanks astri yes i wish she would learn more about me……. and yes relationships are important, i told her i’m not connecting with her or anyone….. that is the she asked "do u have a gun?"  I said, "No, but I have a big knife"……. lol and the fools didn’t come for me…… go figure. Living in an insane world.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. it’s not that easy to get someone into a hospital, if they don’t agree to go, unless they can be shown to be an immediate danger to self or others.  key word there is *immediate*. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at me up for awhile to calm me down. maybe she should know some of these things before deciding that your problem is some specific addictions?  i would think it would be more important to work on your ability to be in a relationship than how much time you spend on the computer. maybe you should think about telling the t that she might not have enough information about you yet to decide what are the priorities in therapy. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom — astri ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

ok thanks  who_me? hmmmmm yes she needs more info. and it is hard to give the info bec i clam up so bad, get so embarassed, it becomes torture to tell her stuff. i also know i act like a crazy person at times, and that is hard to explain unless i get it on videotape sometime . hehe i laugh kinda crazy and involuntarily,,,, like i am lettin’ off some major stress and steam. it happens when i have to do somethin real stressful, going into it, and coming out of it……. it happens more often when the stressful thing is over, like when i leave the T’s office….. it starts immediately. it can make me cough  hard and choke.  so i try to chill out. anyway. Tuesday is coming……. gonna have to figure out what to divulge to her. can’t believe i’m doin’ this to myself again. grrrrr. when i try to reduce computer addiction,…… and try to lookat reality into bigger problems like self harm etc.   These are good observations….. At least I can see that happening…  So I want to find out, what is causing it, what am I trying to hide, cover up, run away, escape from?  Why does reality upset me so? that movie k-pax freaked me out. ugh i related. tmp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. then what do you have to lose by telling her? and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… fwiw, i use the computer to distract myself. it’s kind of amusing bc my Ts think that’s a good thing. i’m not so sure. in your case, it’s sounds like something similar is going on but your T thinks it’s bad. there are usually reasons that ppl have certain addictions. they usually have an important positive function as well as negative consequences. i don’t think it makes sense to stop them without *carefully* monitoring the consequences. i think ppl talked about that here when you posted about this before. (IIRC ppl gave your T the benefit of the doubt and assumed that she was encouraging you to stop using the computer in order to see what would happen if you did that and maybe work on some of the issues that came up. has she done that? if not, i think there’s a problem with her approach.) IOW, i don’t think most ppl could deal with stopping a true addiction cold turkey without serious fallout. i don’t think most ppl could "deal with" it without a lot of monitoring and support. are you doing that in t’py? if not, i’m not sure what your T is up to. i’d want to konw bc it doesn’t make sense to me. i also agree with astri that your T probably needs a lot more info about you before deciding whether to focus on addiction or something else and how to deal with whatever you two decide you should focus on first. i also think that the two of you need to collectively decide what you’ll work on and when. it should be a collective decision (with all of your parts and her), not something that she decides for you. just MO. e i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at me up for awhile to calm me down. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i  etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no  to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for  a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as  solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t  help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk  on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it  time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping  mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes  too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

If they won’t come to you, go to them.  You can *always* go to an emergency room and tell them you are afraid that you are in danger – and they will do an eval.  If nothing else, you can feel safe while simply being in ER. Good luck. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks astri yes i wish she would learn more about me……. and yes relationships are important, i told her i’m not connecting with her or anyone….. that is the and and she asked "do u have a gun?"  I said, "No, but I have a big knife"……. lol and the fools didn’t come for me…… go figure. Living in an insane world. thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. know it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. it’s not that easy to get someone into a hospital, if they don’t agree to go, unless they can be shown to be an immediate danger to self or others.  key word there is *immediate*. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at lock me up for awhile to calm me down. maybe she should know some of these things before deciding that your problem is some specific addictions?  i would think it would be more important to work on your ability to be in a relationship than how much time you spend on the computer. maybe you should think about telling the t that she might not have enough information about you yet to decide what are the priorities in therapy. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom — astri ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i ppl…. etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

Could you print out any of your posts from asd and show her? So sorry that movie upset you.  It had a horrible part near the conclusion, but I lved a lot of it. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok thanks  who_me? hmmmmm yes she needs more info. and it is hard to give the info bec i clam up so bad, get so embarassed, it becomes torture to tell her stuff. i also know i act like a crazy person at times, and that is hard to explain unless i get it on videotape sometime . hehe i laugh kinda crazy and involuntarily,,,, like i am lettin’ off some major stress and steam. it happens when i have to do somethin real stressful, going into it, and coming out of it……. it happens more often when the stressful thing is over, like when i leave the T’s office….. it starts immediately. it can make me cough  hard and choke.  so i try to chill out. anyway. Tuesday is coming……. gonna have to figure out what to divulge to her. can’t believe i’m doin’ this to myself again. grrrrr. when i try to reduce computer addiction,…… and try to lookat reality into bigger problems like self harm etc.   These are good observations….. At least I can see that happening…  So I want to find out, what is causing it, what am I trying to hide, cover up, run away, escape from?  Why does reality upset me so? that movie k-pax freaked me out. ugh i related. tmp thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. know it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. then what do you have to lose by telling her? and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… fwiw, i use the computer to distract myself. it’s kind of amusing bc my Ts think that’s a good thing. i’m not so sure. in your case, it’s sounds like something similar is going on but your T thinks it’s bad. there are usually reasons that ppl have certain addictions. they usually have an important positive function as well as negative consequences. i don’t think it makes sense to stop them without *carefully* monitoring the consequences. i think ppl talked about that here when you posted about this before. (IIRC ppl gave your T the benefit of the doubt and assumed that she was encouraging you to stop using the computer in order to see what would happen if you did that and maybe work on some of the issues that came up. has she done that? if not, i think there’s a problem with her approach.) IOW, i don’t think most ppl could deal with stopping a true addiction cold turkey without serious fallout. i don’t think most ppl could "deal with" it without a lot of monitoring and support. are you doing that in t’py? if not, i’m not sure what your T is up to. i’d want to konw bc it doesn’t make sense to me. i also agree with astri that your T probably needs a lot more info about you before deciding whether to focus on addiction or something else and how to deal with whatever you two decide you should focus on first. i also think that the two of you need to collectively decide what you’ll work on and when. it should be a collective decision (with all of your parts and her), not something that she decides for you. just MO. e i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at lock me up for awhile to calm me down. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e message thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i ppl….  etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no  to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for  a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as  solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t  help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk  on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it  time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping  mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes  too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

Yeah, I didn’t either – probably should say, in general tend not to – but – I ended up in a no-choice situation, and it turned out that what I had feared so much for all my life (being in h*sp.) was, for *me* at that time, a *very* good thing.  I often wish I could do another stint – at a place which was more than just a stabilization center for acute stuff. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks and dont trust’em much, but i will ponder that. thanks beauty. If they won’t come to you, go to them.  You can *always* go to an emergency room and tell them you are afraid that you are in danger – and they will do an eval.  If nothing else, you can feel safe while simply being in ER. Good luck. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. thanks astri yes i wish she would learn more about me……. and yes relationships are important, i told her i’m not connecting with her or anyone….. that is the past and lifeline and she asked "do u have a gun?"  I said, "No, but I have a big knife"……. lol and the fools didn’t come for me…… go figure. Living in an insane world. thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. i know it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. it’s not that easy to get someone into a hospital, if they don’t agree to go, unless they can be shown to be an immediate danger to self or others.  key word there is *immediate*. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at to lock me up for awhile to calm me down. maybe she should know some of these things before deciding that your problem is some specific addictions?  i would think it would be more important to work on your ability to be in a relationship than how much time you spend on the computer. maybe you should think about telling the t that she might not have enough information about you yet to decide what are the priorities in therapy. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom — astri ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e message thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i ppl…. etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

agreed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, I didn’t either – probably should say, in general tend not to – but – I ended up in a no-choice situation, and it turned out that what I had feared so much for all my life (being in h*sp.) was, for *me* at that time, a *very* good thing.  I often wish I could do another stint – at a place which was more than just a stabilization center for acute stuff. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. thanks and dont trust’em much, but i will ponder that. thanks beauty. If they won’t come to you, go to them.  You can *always* go to an emergency room and tell them you are afraid that you are in danger – and they will do an eval.  If nothing else, you can feel safe while simply being in ER. Good luck. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. thanks astri yes i wish she would learn more about me……. and yes relationships are important, i told her i’m not connecting with her or anyone….. that is the past and lifeline and she asked "do u have a gun?"  I said, "No, but I have a big knife"……. lol and the fools didn’t come for me…… go figure. Living in an insane world. thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. i know it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary. it’s not that easy to get someone into a hospital, if they don’t agree to go, unless they can be shown to be an immediate danger to self or others.  key word there is *immediate*. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at to lock me up for awhile to calm me down. maybe she should know some of these things before deciding that your problem is some specific addictions?  i would think it would be more important to work on your ability to be in a relationship than how much time you spend on the computer. maybe you should think about telling the t that she might not have enough information about you yet to decide what are the priorities in therapy. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom — astri ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e message thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i ppl…. etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

thanks, i’m not changing T’s at this time though. and you make good points. my experience is no one cares, if they did, they would hospitalize me. it’s for my own good and it shows someone cares so i would b willing to deal with that. and yes maybe she is going too fast…… maybe i cant deal with this…… i have been stayin up 2 late also. so she could decide to make a call and hospitalize me? ack that is scary.

it’s not that easy to get someone into a hospital, if they don’t agree to go, unless they can be shown to be an immediate danger to self or others.  key word there is *immediate*. but that would also help with my addiction problems bec i couldnt do none of it while in hospital i imagine…. and if T knew how upset i get at spouse and threaten her and throw things at up for awhile to calm me down.

maybe she should know some of these things before deciding that your problem is some specific addictions?  i would think it would be more important to work on your ability to be in a relationship than how much time you spend on the computer. maybe you should think about telling the t that she might not have enough information about you yet to decide what are the priorities in therapy. 10 sessions, it’s too soon to lose this T and not fair bec she doesnt know all the info yet that is buggin’ me…… like my journal, she has it but hasnt read it yet. i thank u again for ur input. tom

– astri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ok thanks for your help Connemara. i’ll try to get courage to tell her, even if i have to write it down and give it to her to read. just my opinion but i’d definitely find out what my T’s policy wrt self-harm was before i told hir anything about it. if you’re averse to hospitalization or anything else Ts use in such situations(e.g., no harm contracts were very harmful for me so i tried to avoid them bc even having a T bring that up caused a lot of long-term deterioration to me as well as to the therapeutic relationship), IMO it’s critical to know how your T will probably react to what you might tell her. many Ts get really hyper about this and, e.g., will want to hospitalize you for fairly minor things. others don’t. you can ask about her policy in general and then use various examples, asking what she’d do in each situation. at the very least, you need to be able to tell her that working on your addictions is causing some serious problems for you so she probably needs to slow down. if you can’t do that (bc, e.g., even that will be a big risk of her doing something harmful for yous), you probably need to find another T. just MO, of course. good luck! e thanks soft, and, she says i’m addicted to the puter, i’m on it for a lot of hours per  day.  i etc. she put me on curfew, 10pm, hate it……  12:30am now….. oops. other addiction im talkin bout is sexual addiction…… the mutilation part is cuttin off circulation to a part of my body  etc… we aren’t really sure what to say, but…addictions are often ways of avoiding things.  addictions often come when the person is trying no to  face a painful memory or situation and they serve as a coping mechanism for a while, but they can become a problem.  while we may see them as solving  the problem, they are like putting band aids on broken bones–they don’t help and they can even make the problem worse.  just as continuing to walk on a broken leg will make it worse, continuing to avoid an issue gives it time  to fester and gives us time to become set in the use of our coping mechanisms that may not be helping us anymore. i think i have to agree with the t that you have to work on the  addictions. and s/he does need to know that you s*lf h*rm, because if it becomes too extreme they need to be able to protect you. please take care of you. michelle & the rest

Response:

thanks for helpful posts.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tell T about it.  i’ve seen her 10 times now and she only seems to want to talk about my addictions…..says we can’t move forward until i stop "addicting". in the meantime, my temper flares and i’m hurtin’/mutilatin’ myself.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On reflection, everything I wrote in that being a failure message was a lie. I was looking for pity/sympathy because I was feeling down, and decided to stick with the failure theme. Some corrections now that the depression seems to have lifted: 1. With the exception of the fact that mental illness has cost me three jobs, I’ve been quite succesful at everything I’ve worked at.  Even "computers", which I said I "wasn’t good at" (whatever that means, the original comment doesn’t even make sense, does it?).  I just don’t have the kind of skills they’re hiring for nowadays, but the stuff I did do I was quite good at. 2. I may be mentally ill, but that’s not something one should truly consider a negative.  It’s just a part of who I am and I’m good with that. 3. I may be recently unemployed, but that’s apparently not abnormal in today’s economy : See http://www.msnbc.com/news/618266.asp (article title: "Total number of jobless workers hits nine-year high", the article has today’s date on it) 4. I’m only "terrible at people interraction" when I enter a depressed or anxious state, and in general do quite well. 5. I said "I don’t read much", but what is it that I think I do on the internet?  I suppose I should’ve said I don’t read many old-fashioned "books", though I’m thinking of getting a library card later today 6. The "popcorn" job mentioned was not by any means the only thing I was good at.  I was just realizing that there weren’t many tech jobs available that I qualified for and looked at my resume for what skills I might still be able to use today, and sadly that was the only one.  It was almost humorous. 7. The "obsessing" thing was quite situational, trigerred by news.  It was initially troubling, but today I can tell you that it’s just plain silly (and no, there’s no conflicts about that either; those conflicting personalities I spoke of only hit me in a depression because a part of me wants to put down every other part of me when I get there). 8. I may not have been good in "gym class", but that’s only because as a youngster I was never much into the competition thing (which basically meant I wasn’t much into playing games).  It’s no wonder I was picked last,  I didn’t even try to be good at those type of events.  I was too busy with video games at the time. 9. And of course, the rest of the message is addressed by saying, "damnit, that’s my personality and I happen to like it" (though, I do see room for improvements and try to make them) -Rob

Attitude is a tremendous part of how we feel.  You can change your attitude sometimes, but not always.  A positive outlook always helps one be more happy. However, the failure feelings always seem to come back at our darkest hour.  I almost posted the "failure" document I wrote the last time I tried to kill myself–as it is similar to yours–except I’m older and have kids. So, enjoy the good feelings while you have them and this is the time to figure out how to mitigate those failure feelings–it ain’t easy. <g I see a lot of progress in you Rob, do not try to do too many things at one time, or you will over reach your abilities.  Baby steps is my rule of thumb. Nancy to email me, remove the Z. administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated

Response:

On reflection, everything I wrote in that being a failure message was a

lie. Not a lie, just the depression talking!  I’m glad you’ve come back to yourself now. <snip some healthy-sounding reevaluations … 5. I said "I don’t read much", but what is it that I think I do on the internet?  I suppose I should’ve said I don’t read many old-fashioned "books", though I’m thinking of getting a library card later today

Exactly, we overlook this, & yet it’s really quite intense & challenging mental activity – getting to grips with other people’s points of view thru what they post. … 8. I may not have been good in "gym class", but that’s only because as a youngster I was never much into the competition thing (which basically meant I wasn’t much into playing games).  It’s no wonder I was picked last,  I didn’t even try to be good at those type of events.  I was too busy with video games at the time.

Hey guess what – I reckon at least half of the interesting adults around were the last to be picked for teams in school. (!!! Wow, just had a huge dump of hail on the tin roof – I’m up in the loft (this is late winter in NZ)). 9. And of course, the rest of the message is addressed by saying, "damnit, that’s my personality and I happen to like it" (though, I do see room for improvements and try to make them)

That’s the ticket, mate!

Response:

To hear you’ve gone five years without employment is — well, I guess you’re married and have the support.  In my case, I guess I have my parents to do things like pay for the monthly internet charge and provide food and shelter.  I can’t rely on them forever (retirment comes soon), though, and without a backup support system I’ll probably wind up being permanently institutionalized in one form or another.  And I can’t think of anything better to look forward to than sitting in an institution and being largely left to die.  Heck, what is it that I’m doing in my life now (or planning) that’s any better than that anyway.

Yes, I have a loving husband.  However, he has NO interest in learning about my illnesses.  A friend was over Sunday who happens to be bipolar and when we really got honest and started talking about what goes on in our minds–information that should be helpful to loved ones to help me feeel better and weather crashes without doing so much damage–my husband left saying it was "too much information".  Now how is that one?  I’m still mad about it. I get much more support on this ng than I do from my family.  I depend on this news group–as real life groups make things worse for me.   I also wanted to say that I hav always written things down.  I started taking my notes to my therapist years ago.  Just writing my feelings on a piece of paper DOES make me feel better.  Then talking about it.  I do not keep journals, per se–any journal I’ve started regarding my feelings has always been destroyed when I feel better.  I have a hard time looking at those words when I’m feeling good.  I did a good one with my last suicide attempt–even dated the darn thing. <g I thought about posting it–but when I look at my problems, they seem so small compared to others on this ng–so I rarely post things like that.  And that fact made my best internet buddy really angry with me.  He was totally honest with me–and I hid my attempt from everyone.  Except hubby–who found me. I have a very different attitude about suicide than most people.  I think if someone really wants out of the pain–they have every right to do so.  I will NEVER call the police if someone posts here–as I respect their choice to end the pain.  And if loved ones are angry–it is only because they failed to see it coming and try to make life less painful for that person–so they feel guilty themselves.  I have NO guilt about what I may leave behind.  My loved ones have had every opportunity to help me–to see the crash coming–I know when they are coming and I try to warn my family–but they never listen.  Not my problem. Suicide is on my mind these days–not because of my latest attempt or my mood. My best friend I told you about lost his main companion–his beloved dog to a stupid trucker going to fast down the road.  He is suicidal–has been for over two weeks and I don’t want him to go before we can meet in person.  If he can hold on that long–he should be over his grief and I can help him get a canine companion to actually help him live better.  :-) When I get manic–I tend to give out too much information–and I’m definately a bit manic today–went out shopping and talking to people always does it! LOL Oh, and Rob–my 21 year old is now living at home–lost his most recent job/career and is looking for another one. He has been home over a year and has not saved enough for a car or his own place. GRRRRRRRR  I think he is bipolar–but he is way to manic to listen to me or see a doc for a diagnosis.  I think he is in a year long manic phase. Hugs, Nancy to email me, remove the Z. administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated

Response:

Everything I’ve ever attempted in life, has ultimately ended in failure even if it seemed good along the way – I only sometimes manage to fool myself into believing that i’m doing better than i am, and sometimes manage to fool others into believing that too. I’m metally ill, unemployed, and probably unemployable.  I’ve picked a career in a field that I’m not even good at (computers). In fact, anything that requires any sort of imagination or creativity I tend to do incredibly bad at.  I’d almost go so far as to say I do incredibly bad at just about everything I’ve ever attempted to do.

<snip ruthless self-castigation You’ll note that as I write this I’m on my second day on an antidepressant (wellbutrin).  How do you think it’s working?

I think it hasn’t kicked in yet.  Rob, the eloquence with which you describe your ‘worthlessness’ proves that you have talent.  You can’t trust your evaluation of yourself when you’re depressed.  Be easy on yourself & wait for the depression to lift. Sue.

Response:

I hadn’t expected that post to go through (and am glad the other one I submitted the same day didn’t go through), but since this did I’ll comment further.. That was written late at night, and after a good night’s rest just about all of those negative feelings left me.  Reading it now I feel like I should feel worse about myself, but I don’t.  

The _depression_ thinks you should feel worse about yourself.  I’m glad you feel better after some sleep. I don’t care, and perhaps that’s the biggest reason I’m always a failure.  I just don’t care, about almost anything…. It doesn’t bother me that I’m unemployed.  It doesn’t bother me that I’m mentally ill.  It doesn’t concern me that I have no friends.  It doesn’t matter to me that I’ll probably never accomplish anything in life.  …

It’s healthy to say that you don’t care, in response to the attacks on your self-esteem that your depressed mind is constantly feeding you. I do whine a lot, don’t I?  Ya know what, I don’t care!

I don’t care either – feel free to let it all hang out! I can act like an ass at times, but I guess that’s just who I am, and I don’t know how to live any other way.  I almost feel like singing the old dennis leary song "I’m an asshole" proudly.  Too bad I don’t know the lyrics by memory, and am too lazy (again, don’t care) to search on the internet for them. Life is good, I guess.

It will be good again, hang in there kid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –Rob

Response:

Gregory, You may be right, but I don’t know.  I think I need to get a life.  I think I need to get laid.  I think I need to get out of the house more often.  I think i need to get in shape physically.  I think I should’ve stayed in school when I was given the option of free grad school five years ago.  I think I need to read more casual novels and less technical material.  I think I need to work harder to control my computer addiction, which also is driven in part by free net porn in certain newsgroups.  I think it would be great if I could’ve never seen (in the past or present) that material in the first place, but the internet is unregulated so at a young age my mind was polluted.  I think I should try to be a better person to the friends/family I have, and I’m attempting to go to church at least weekly now and try to get some life lessons from that.  I think I should declare bankruptcy and give up the high-money-spending thing and just get onto welfare for a while so I can spend some time to recouperate from all the psychiatric mess that my life has been.  Finally, i think I need to stop thinking that the world revolves around me, and try to seriously absorb the fact that there are other people in the world. Yes, I need a lot more than wellbutrin can do for me, I suppose.  Something much stronger.  But hey, if you know of a pill which will take care of the above (I’m wondering about cyanide), please suggest one. Thanks, Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well then, perhaps you need something stronger than wellbutrin?  Wanna email me ? Sounds like it could help. gregory "We have no power to prevent ourselves being born: but we can rectify this error – for it is sometimes an error." ~Friedrich Nietzsche: Twilight of the Idols/ The Anti-christ *My comfort; a mere fraction of the genius he expressed in print*

Response:

Hi Nancy, Thank you for the support (and for the plastic bag idea <grin).  If you want to share the text of the letter that was published, I’d like to read it.  I remember feeling good when the USA Today published a letter of mine about the mental health system this past february (I no longer have the text of it, and I don’t think they have archives). I suppose the best thing to know is that today you do feel on cloud-9 despite the fact that in the past you’ve gotten to the point I’ve gotten to. My moods seem to change with the wind — never really to what I’d consider manic or hypomanic, just from uninterested to incredibly depressed and then back to uninterested again.  To clarify, by uninterested I mean that I get to the point where nothing concerns or bothers me, not that I’m uninterested in your reply. To hear you’ve gone five years without employment is — well, I guess you’re married and have the support.  In my case, I guess I have my parents to do things like pay for the monthly internet charge and provide food and shelter.  I can’t rely on them forever (retirment comes soon), though, and without a backup support system I’ll probably wind up being permanently institutionalized in one form or another.  And I can’t think of anything better to look forward to than sitting in an institution and being largely left to die.  Heck, what is it that I’m doing in my life now (or planning) that’s any better than that anyway. <sigh Again, though, thanks for the otherwise uplifting words. Externally, of course, i’m keeping my head up to the point where I think I look "cool and confident".  Internally, though, I have already fallen apart (I’m no longer "falling apart" as I originally was going to write).  I don’t know that it’s a bad thing though — because it causes me to get off the self-built hamster wheel that has been my life and ask "ok, why was I doing that?".  Maybe from all this I can find something more meaningful to do with my life.  I’ve toyed with the idea of trying to join a volunteer organization, such as habitat for humanity or similar, where I might find meaning by helping build homes for people or something like that.  But then I rememberred how bad I was in "shop" class (building things), so I almost think if I joined something like that I would be more of a liability to any project than an asset. -Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could go on and on–but I’m feeling good today and I don’t want to depress myself. LOL Just know that you are NOT alone–that you do have some successes–you just have to find them.  I am SO much better not working and just taking care of my family and myself.  I do not miss working–at least not yet.  I’ve been off work for exactly 5 years now–and it seems like only one year. I got sweet revenge last Monday, when the published my scathing letter to the editor about my old job.  I am on cloud nine right now–as the whole world now knows just how bad the State of California is when it comes to contracts. If you all want–I can post a copy of the letter–but it is not on the web site, unless you want to pay for the archives. Hang in there–life can get better, Nancy to email me, remove the Z. administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated

Response:

Everything I’ve ever attempted in life, has ultimately ended in failure even if it seemed good along the way – I only sometimes manage to fool myself into believing that i’m doing better than i am, and sometimes manage to fool others into believing that too.

Hi Rob- When I had my last crash–and it was not pretty–my husband found me asleep with a plastic bag over my head–in late July of this year–I wrote several pages of exactly the type of thing you you wrote here.   I felt like a totaly failure in life–I never even made my next goal in employment–and I knew I was never going to be promoted again.  My elder kid had to be sent away at 16.  My younger kid barely graduated from HS and his only saving grace is that he is the ONLY student out of 31 in a vocational class who now has a full time job with Intel.  Intel is his new mommy and daddy.  They will coach him through college–I just hope he actually goes. I could go on and on–but I’m feeling good today and I don’t want to depress myself. LOL Just know that you are NOT alone–that you do have some successes–you just have to find them.  I am SO much better not working and just taking care of my family and myself.  I do not miss working–at least not yet.  I’ve been off work for exactly 5 years now–and it seems like only one year. I got sweet revenge last Monday, when the published my scathing letter to the editor about my old job.  I am on cloud nine right now–as the whole world now knows just how bad the State of California is when it comes to contracts.   If you all want–I can post a copy of the letter–but it is not on the web site, unless you want to pay for the archives. Hang in there–life can get better, Nancy to email me, remove the Z. administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated

Response:

Well then, perhaps you need something stronger than wellbutrin?  Wanna email me ? Sounds like it could help. gregory "We have no power to prevent ourselves being born: but we can rectify this error – for it is sometimes an error."   ~Friedrich Nietzsche: Twilight of the Idols/ The Anti-christ *My comfort; a mere fraction of the genius he expressed in print*

Response:

I hadn’t expected that post to go through (and am glad the other one I submitted the same day didn’t go through), but since this did I’ll comment further.. That was written late at night, and after a good night’s rest just about all of those negative feelings left me.  Reading it now I feel like I should feel worse about myself, but I don’t.  I don’t care, and perhaps that’s the biggest reason I’m always a failure.  I just don’t care, about almost anything. Someone told me that’s a sign of depression though (not caring about life or trying to accomplish things).  I don’t feel, at least today, depressed (though I did within the last two weeks, but not persistently).  Again, I just don’t care — it doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me that I’m unemployed.  It doesn’t bother me that I’m mentally ill.  It doesn’t concern me that I have no friends.  It doesn’t matter to me that I’ll probably never accomplish anything in life.  It doesn’t bother me that I’ll probably wind up homeless because I took my career too far in the wrong direction without taking off the blinders.  I just don’t give a damn, because either I’ll survive on the streets at that point, or I’ll die and it’ll be over with anyway.  I just don’t care. I do whine a lot, don’t I?  Ya know what, I don’t care! I can act like an ass at times, but I guess that’s just who I am, and I don’t know how to live any other way.  I almost feel like singing the old dennis leary song "I’m an asshole" proudly.  Too bad I don’t know the lyrics by memory, and am too lazy (again, don’t care) to search on the internet for them. Life is good, I guess. -Rob

Response:

You’ll note that as I write this I’m on my second day on an antidepressant (wellbutrin).  How do you think it’s working?

Wellbutrin took a while to work on me…few weeks. But I don’t think it’s working at all anymore — http://www.insecurities.org/jenwolf/ ad astra per aspera

Response:

Everything I’ve ever attempted in life, has ultimately ended in failure even if it seemed good along the way – I only sometimes manage to fool myself into believing that i’m doing better than i am, and sometimes manage to fool others into believing that too. Rob, were ill, I have trouble fiting into society too. Don’t be so hard on yourself, you have a lot of good qualities. Your very articulate. I think IMHO you need a place like the bipolarcafe or chat rooms to make friends online. It gives you confidence for real life interactions imho.

Yeah, but no one comes there!! There aren’t even any Op’s there. — http://www.insecurities.org/jenwolf/ ad astra per aspera

Response:

Yes i seem to notice some ‘energy’ in your writing:) Luca Zoli Ceccaroni C.V. Everything I’ve ever attempted in life, has ultimately ended in failure even if it seemed good along the way – I only sometimes manage to fool myself into believing that i’m doing better than i am, and sometimes manage to fool others into believing that too.

(snipped by moderator)

Response:

Everything I’ve ever attempted in life, has ultimately ended in failure even if it seemed good along the way – I only sometimes manage to fool myself into believing that i’m doing better than i am, and sometimes manage to fool others into believing that too. I’m metally ill, unemployed, and probably unemployable.  I’ve picked a career in a field that I’m not even good at (computers). In fact, anything that requires any sort of imagination or creativity I tend to do incredibly bad at.  I’d almost go so far as to say I do incredibly bad at just about everything I’ve ever attempted to do. I’m terrible at people interraction.  I can’t communicate anything without a computer (whether e-mail or printing and mailing), and when I do I sometimes scare myself with what I write.  When it comes to writing, I’ll say anything to anyone, and most people (like you) aren’t even interested in reading what I write, so basically I communicate with no one. I don’t read much, so my vocabulary is incredibly lacking. I’ve tried to move out on my own three times.  The first time I wound up having to return to my parents home after two years because of mental illness.  The second time I lasted 3 months and came back due to mental illness.  The third time I lasted only two months and came back because of mental illness.  All of these involved hospitalizations. The only thing I’ve ever been good at, is depressing when I sit back and realize how pathetic it is.  Specifically, I was really good at what I once enjoyed and that was selling popcorn and soda using a sales pitch pre-scripted by someone else.  That is, I can’t come up with the words, but when I said someone elses words I was really good to the point where I was consistently ranked top in sales, and I loved doing it.  I suppose one might almost call that acting (reciting someone else’s lines in front of an audience), but I don’t have the talent to be a real actor (not that I’ve ever tried or ever will).  If I wanted to do that one thing that I did well, I wouldn’t do as well anymore, for sure.  I’m not longer young and vital.  I no longer have a zest for life.  I’ve also put on more than a few pounds since then, so no longer have the looks to do that kind of work succesfully. On top of everything else, I’m about to qualify (hopefully) for unemployment insurance from the state, and that unemployment insurance will pay me more than I could hope to earn from that kind of a job (unemployment insurance would pay me $405/week to sit home). I can’t get back into a computer career, though that hasn’t stopped me from trying.  Computers are all I know, and that makes me pretty useless because to do anything meaningful, even with computers, one has to know more about the real world, or at least have enough imagination to create a fake world that’s interesting. I recently (after receiving news from a friend) started obsessing (thoughts only) about a former girl I used to be friends with, but I let the possibility for that relationship slip long ago, and at this point in my life I started realizing that even if I met that person nowadays there’s no reason they’d want to be in any way affiliated with me. I’m the person who, in gym class, was always last to be picked for team sports.  No one wants me on their team regardless of the task at hand, and in the past when i’ve turned to friends while I’ve been attacked I’ve often been turned away. Of course, this is all my fault.  I’ve realized that I’ve often been selfish, self-important, and often ignore what other people are doing or are interested in.  As an example, about a year or so ago, I was at the local gym and saw an empty treadmill that was running and had a towel on it.  I was next in line for an open treadmill so decided to take that treadmill and put the towel that was on it on the floor.  About 2 minutes later a girl returned to the treadmill and said "excuse me, I was using that but just went to the bathroom".  I could’ve been nice and given it back, but instead acted like a complete ass and basically said "finders keepers, losers weepers" (not anything near those words though), she called me a jerk and threw my towel on the floor.  I just kept my head up high and ignored her. I acted like an @ss, and that was probably obvious to most people who witnessed the incident. Another example of the same thing:  Within my first month working in the courts, when my supervisor was on vacation, I wrote an e-mail to the head of technology for the entire court system criticizing not only my boss but my fellow coworkers for making small mistakes (such as shutting down the server for the building without telling anyone, and about my supervisor leaving that guy in charge).  That paranthetical comment, as pathetic as it sounds, is my attempt at justifying my action.  The reality of it is that I think that simple e-mail killed my career in the courts (I was relegated to a department separate from most of the court system who got everything last, and left mostly alone to do what i want — which is only because it was easier for them to fire me).  As it turns out, to apply for any technology job in the state courts nowadays the application has to be mailed to that guy that I sent that e-mail to, and I’m near certain that when he sees any application from me it gets put directly into the trash specifically because of what I wrote in that e-mail.  I was seen as a complainer, and I was. I am a failure.  I deserve to be a failure.  I’m meant to be a failure. I’ve never tried to be a success, yet have always acted like I’m in the right regardless of what I’m doing.  A teacher once tried to tell me this by giving me a "green slip" (detention with demerits) for *insubordination*, but of course I didn’t pay attention to it. When I set out (in my mind) to list my good points and my bad points recently, I could not come up with any good points.  None. My only remaining friend (whom I’ve known since the seventh grade), recently started ignorring me.  He was shocked the last time I saw him when I finally admitted to him that I’m not smart, and especially such when I proved it by pointing out that I had less than a 3.0 gpa back in college (I graduated back in 1996, but never really spoke of how I did — I just did what was required to graduate in 4 years). I just lost a contract job that I had because despite the fact that I succesfully completed the primary assignment in the contract, when it came down to writing an installation program I just freaked out and said I couldn’t do it.  I could no longer sit down with the computer and write a program, even to do a simple installation using a tool that I paid $1500 for (installshield).  I handed off the project to another developer, and just told the contractor to cancel my contract and let the other guy take it over.  I couldn’t handle it any more. I can’t do anything.  I have no where to go.  I have no reason to live. It’s fortunate, I suppose, that I have no reason do die. You’ll note that as I write this I’m on my second day on an antidepressant (wellbutrin).  How do you think it’s working? -Rob  A slow learner

Response:

Question:

You might enjoy finding a counselor or therapist to work this out with.   Not in the sense that you are sick or depraved, but that your behvior in personal relationships is undoubtedly a reflection of lots of other parts of you.   If you are unsettled by your behavior in any of its manifestations, reconciling your actions and your alleged beliefs can be very helpful.   You may find that by examining old wounds, you can free yourself from unwanted compulsions.  On the other hand, you may find that you are actually quite content with your behavior and that your unease is more related to still trying to please others (parents, etc) even though their beliefs and needs don’t necessarily match your own. What I’m trying to say is that self exploration with some professional outsied guidance can be very productive as you try to resolve the inevitable paradoxes that all of us find within our lives and well worth the time if you are in a frame of mind to go after it.

Response:

Hi Ron, Farewell for now.  Trying to wean yourself off the computer and newsgroups is not an easy thing, but it gets easier. The facility good newsgroups give us, particularly NFs (who wrestle with their ambiguous outlooks, yearnings and can talk forever about issues without ever getting to the point, uh, what was I saying ?) is invaluable. On any issue, there’s a plethora of personal viewpoints, ranging from the warmly earnest to the hideously facile. Fortunately, a lot of this is still available in lurk mode, without the added compulsion to check all the time whether anyone has responded and validated your reality . I’m pleased to see that you have resolved some of your inner turmoil and appear ready to move in your life, though your ex-wife and son (not to mention to finances) will continue to be part of your future. Computer addiction can create personal alienation, particularly for those of us who live too much in our own heads anyway.  At one level this window on the world is wonderful, but it’s also perilous. I hope your future long-term relationship involves better personal communication, as I think you have a tendency to withdraw anyway. I don’t agree (for once) with Karen about BPD in your case.  I do think your trolls reveal some disturbing things about your attitudes to both the mentally ill and to women in general.  I hope you can address these issues. Take care, Ian

Response:

Ron, In case you read this…what might help (imho) is to minimize analyzing your s2bx and simply feel your feelings. Learn as much as you can about narcissism and borderline personalities because this will give you some insight into your confusion. (And I don’t mean your wife’s confusion, I mean your confusion.) Good luck. Karen

Response:

Ron, In case you read this…what might help (imho) is to minimize analyzing your s2bx and simply feel your feelings. Learn as much as you can about narcissism and borderline personalities because this will give you some insight into your confusion. (And I don’t mean your wife’s confusion, I mean your confusion.)

I did read this, and will respond here. Why do you think I have BPD?  I am not challenging you, I am just genuinely curious. I dated someone with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) once, and I never really considered applying it to myself.    - Ron   ^*^

Response:

Don’t let the loveless ones sell you a world wrapped in grey.   – Ron   ^*^ Nice post.  And I really love that last line.

XTC, I think.  Can’t remember which album, but the song is pretty cool.    - Ron   ^*^

Response:

What an eye-opening post.   So much insight to yourself. Best to Ron. Glos – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *Cough* Actually, this isn’t about sex at all.  That was the title of my first post here, though, and it seemed appropriate. Yesterday, my stbx came over to drop off the baby after I got out of work.  I had so much stuff to carry that I asked her if she would carry the baby upstairs to my apartment with me.  She did, and we ended up sitting on the couch and talking for about two hours over peach tea.  We haven’t had a real conversation in about four months, so it was a time to air out a lot of thoughts and feelings about the past, present, and future, and realize exactly what the two of us were, have been, and will be up to. There was a lot of information exchanged, and I am still processing some of it.  There were no tears, just a friendly conversation without the subdued emotional hype that typified our early divorce conversations.  A lot of honest evaluation went back and forth, and we both seemed very open to admitting faults and accepting each other’s opinions. Turns out she was unhappy in the marriage for years, too.  I hadn’t really known that, although I have to admit it would have been bloody tough to tell, her being severely depressed anyway.  She said that she felt "lonely", which makes a lot of sense, I guess.  I know that I spent way too much time on the computer, for example.  There were days I would come home from work, get online, check e-mail, get on Usenet, type posts, then check e-mail again, respond to it, play some games, check Usenet again (a vicious cycle!), etc…  And then it would be 11:00, bedtime.  I knew before our conversation that this had been a problem…  And I have recently noticed a tendency in myself to waste a lot of time online (now that I have internet access again), instead of doing productive things like I have been doing for the past eight months or more.  I noticed this week that I had gained back four pounds of the fifteen I lost since getting more deeply into Usenet and joining a mailing list.  The apartment isn’t as spotless as it used to be.  I noticed, and didn’t like it (and planned to make some changes before we even talked). I asked her if she thought I was "addicted" to the internet.  She laughed, but she said that there were times when it made her feel like she didn’t matter to me.  I knew I did this…  And it worries me because I don’t want to end up in another relationship and have the same thing happen all over again.  I am scared because (I told her this) I really DON’T KNOW how much time is appropriate to spend with one’s spouse!  I feel like I can admit that I didn’t spend enough with her…  And yet… And yet I remember there being many times when I would try to talk with her (really TALK, not just sex — maybe a walk in the park) and she would just want me to "go away" because she wanted to sleep as she was depressed.  I’m confused.  I WAS confused.  At those times I’d just get on my computer since I was alone…  Then a week later, maybe she’d want me to hang out with her but I was into a routine on the computer and didn’t notice.  ???  I don’t know — I’m in a routine now where I make a conscious effort to eat dinner with my housemate EVERY DAY, which I did not do with my wife.  Why not? Added to that was the fact that she knew she was my "second choice".  I felt bad about that — I always had — and I apologized.  Well, she had known I was still in love with someone else when we got together…  So it wasn’t completely my fault, and she admitted as much.  Actually it must have been pretty awful knowing that her spouse was still upset and in his heart of hearts would have been with someone else had he the choice.  I don’t want to be in that situation again, or drag anyone else into it either (note to self — take it slow in dating). She also felt that I didn’t respect her going to school as being a "real" career, which I frankly felt was a bit odd.  I never really felt that way — although I DID have real difficulty with her borrowing lots of money and then NOT attending school repeatedly. She thought that our respective "coping mechanisms" didn’t work well together — I tended to withdraw into myself when upset, she tended to get depressed — and our tendencies seemed to exacerbate each other (certainly I developed a callous around my heart in response to her depression — it seems likely to me she got depressed because of issues with me, although she denies this, mostly). We discussed sex, too.  She claims that she had never had willing sex with another human being (this is true), and she did not know WHAT her drive was.  She felt she had never had time to learn, so she just "went along" with me and then resented it because it felt like abuse (she was following MY lead).  I — I guess that makes a sort of sense, but it was frustrating to me anyway, which I said and she admitted made sense to her.  I also told her that I had always felt special that we had been able to get to know each other that way — it took a lot of gentleness and patience to get her to feel "safe" enough to enjoy herself sexually with me, and I really did feel like I was capable of healing her back then.  Maybe she had wanted to be healed, that way, years ago.  I don’t know.  Anyway, it felt nice.  She thanked me and told me that she was sure it would be easier for her next time, because of my past patience and understanding.  It felt nice. I *still* think the prozac (60 mgs at last count) made her anorgasmic and that shut down her sex drive…  She explained to me that she was now "exploring her sexuality", which might be true and might also be the lack of sex for a year talking.  I told her I was paranoid about that aspect of relationships now and I couldn’t trust her that way anymore… In my heart I know she would have a sexual relationship for a while and then go back to her old ways of just "not wanting" any.  I told her I used to feel like a useless fifth wheel as far as sex was concerned (after some time into the relationship, and this got worse as time went on), because it was such an important part of life to me and such an irrelevant one to her.  She understood, which was nice. All in all, it was nice to hear each of us telling the other that we understood where they were coming from, and were sorry that we’d hurt each other. Anyway — I came to a few conclusions.  One of them is that I am wasting a lot of time online and want to cut back (I also know that part of what I am doing here in the first place is acting out pain and frustration from the marriage, which is something I need to LET GO of, not pick at and allow to fester).  I am going to leave for a time. I am scared of a lot of things.  Am I capable of commitment?  My relationship with the fundamentalist Christian woman forced some painful choices on me — I truly loved that woman, but let go of our relationship (with her in agreement, I now remember) because I didn’t think it would work (or was I [were WE] just not willing to work HARD enough?).  I think the same thing happened with my wife, other than the taint of a past relationship and the fact we were actually married and not just discussing marriage.  Are there times when one should really just let go? I was raised to feel like one would "give up anything" or "do anything" for one’s love, but now…  I don’t know.  I come from a family of enablers with a spot of alcoholism in the dead generations…  I don’t know if what I learned from them is always the best thing.  OTOH, I don’t know if it is best to just cut ties at the first sign of trouble.  I just don’t know. I’m scared of sex.  I’m scared of getting intimate with someone, getting committed, and then having them "shut down".  OF COURSE I know people aren’t always "in synch" and fully expect there to be some times ANY woman (and man) isn’t "in the mood", and the other partner SHOULD just drop it…  But a CONSISTENT PATTERN of "not in the mood" over and over is death for the relationship.  Maybe I just need to learn and accept THAT. I’m frightened of myself (I told my stbx this) because I know part of why we broke up was my innate desire for sex with many women.  What do I do about that in the future?  Will it pass?  Will I always feel this way? Will I never be really satisfied?  Unfortunately, I have something of a conscience and can’t really bring myself to deceive women for sex, or constantly sneak around (even my affair on my wife was brought to her attention at the first sign of it…  Not that that’s an excuse, but it does say something).  I don’t want to go through life frustrated because I want something I can’t have.  Or can I have it?  Is a lifestyle of serial relationships (and honesty about what they are from the outset) such a bad thing?  I don’t know. Anyway…  I have a lot to sort out.  I’m glad I spoke with my stbx… She is not a monster, even if she has a lot of problems and is someone I am probably much better off not sharing responsibilities with (although due to the baby I cannot really fully get out of that).  I feel like I need to take a break from being here, maybe permanently.  I know the posts under different names are what they are — thanks FloridaNB for appreciating them — but I wonder if they might actually be detracting from my ability to let go of the past, or maybe if I might just finally be ready to let go after all.  I used to post as a religious nut named BATTLEHYMN for years, back when I was upset about what happened with the fundamentalist woman.  I noticed I have pretty much stopped doing that since I got over HER.  I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg? Still not sure but going to take a break for a while, like I said. Well,

… read more »

Response:

*Cough* Actually, this isn’t about sex at all.  That was the title of my first post here, though, and it seemed appropriate. Yesterday, my stbx came over to drop off the baby after I got out of work.  I had so much stuff to carry that I asked her if she would carry the baby upstairs to my apartment with me.  She did, and we ended up sitting on the couch and talking for about two hours over peach tea.  We haven’t had a real conversation in about four months, so it was a time to air out a lot of thoughts and feelings about the past, present, and future, and realize exactly what the two of us were, have been, and will be up to. There was a lot of information exchanged, and I am still processing some of it.  There were no tears, just a friendly conversation without the subdued emotional hype that typified our early divorce conversations.  A lot of honest evaluation went back and forth, and we both seemed very open to admitting faults and accepting each other’s opinions. Turns out she was unhappy in the marriage for years, too.  I hadn’t really known that, although I have to admit it would have been bloody tough to tell, her being severely depressed anyway.  She said that she felt "lonely", which makes a lot of sense, I guess.  I know that I spent way too much time on the computer, for example.  There were days I would come home from work, get online, check e-mail, get on Usenet, type posts, then check e-mail again, respond to it, play some games, check Usenet again (a vicious cycle!), etc…  And then it would be 11:00, bedtime.  I knew before our conversation that this had been a problem…  And I have recently noticed a tendency in myself to waste a lot of time online (now that I have internet access again), instead of doing productive things like I have been doing for the past eight months or more.  I noticed this week that I had gained back four pounds of the fifteen I lost since getting more deeply into Usenet and joining a mailing list.  The apartment isn’t as spotless as it used to be.  I noticed, and didn’t like it (and planned to make some changes before we even talked). I asked her if she thought I was "addicted" to the internet.  She laughed, but she said that there were times when it made her feel like she didn’t matter to me.  I knew I did this…  And it worries me because I don’t want to end up in another relationship and have the same thing happen all over again.  I am scared because (I told her this) I really DON’T KNOW how much time is appropriate to spend with one’s spouse!  I feel like I can admit that I didn’t spend enough with her…  And yet…  And yet I remember there being many times when I would try to talk with her (really TALK, not just sex — maybe a walk in the park) and she would just want me to "go away" because she wanted to sleep as she was depressed.  I’m confused.  I WAS confused.  At those times I’d just get on my computer since I was alone…  Then a week later, maybe she’d want me to hang out with her but I was into a routine on the computer and didn’t notice.  ???  I don’t know — I’m in a routine now where I make a conscious effort to eat dinner with my housemate EVERY DAY, which I did not do with my wife.  Why not? Added to that was the fact that she knew she was my "second choice".  I felt bad about that — I always had — and I apologized.  Well, she had known I was still in love with someone else when we got together…  So it wasn’t completely my fault, and she admitted as much.  Actually it must have been pretty awful knowing that her spouse was still upset and in his heart of hearts would have been with someone else had he the choice.  I don’t want to be in that situation again, or drag anyone else into it either (note to self — take it slow in dating). She also felt that I didn’t respect her going to school as being a "real" career, which I frankly felt was a bit odd.  I never really felt that way — although I DID have real difficulty with her borrowing lots of money and then NOT attending school repeatedly. She thought that our respective "coping mechanisms" didn’t work well together — I tended to withdraw into myself when upset, she tended to get depressed — and our tendencies seemed to exacerbate each other (certainly I developed a callous around my heart in response to her depression — it seems likely to me she got depressed because of issues with me, although she denies this, mostly). We discussed sex, too.  She claims that she had never had willing sex with another human being (this is true), and she did not know WHAT her drive was.  She felt she had never had time to learn, so she just "went along" with me and then resented it because it felt like abuse (she was following MY lead).  I — I guess that makes a sort of sense, but it was frustrating to me anyway, which I said and she admitted made sense to her.  I also told her that I had always felt special that we had been able to get to know each other that way — it took a lot of gentleness and patience to get her to feel "safe" enough to enjoy herself sexually with me, and I really did feel like I was capable of healing her back then.  Maybe she had wanted to be healed, that way, years ago.  I don’t know.  Anyway, it felt nice.  She thanked me and told me that she was sure it would be easier for her next time, because of my past patience and understanding.  It felt nice. I *still* think the prozac (60 mgs at last count) made her anorgasmic and that shut down her sex drive…  She explained to me that she was now "exploring her sexuality", which might be true and might also be the lack of sex for a year talking.  I told her I was paranoid about that aspect of relationships now and I couldn’t trust her that way anymore…  In my heart I know she would have a sexual relationship for a while and then go back to her old ways of just "not wanting" any.  I told her I used to feel like a useless fifth wheel as far as sex was concerned (after some time into the relationship, and this got worse as time went on), because it was such an important part of life to me and such an irrelevant one to her.  She understood, which was nice.   All in all, it was nice to hear each of us telling the other that we understood where they were coming from, and were sorry that we’d hurt each other. Anyway — I came to a few conclusions.  One of them is that I am wasting a lot of time online and want to cut back (I also know that part of what I am doing here in the first place is acting out pain and frustration from the marriage, which is something I need to LET GO of, not pick at and allow to fester).  I am going to leave for a time. I am scared of a lot of things.  Am I capable of commitment?  My relationship with the fundamentalist Christian woman forced some painful choices on me — I truly loved that woman, but let go of our relationship (with her in agreement, I now remember) because I didn’t think it would work (or was I [were WE] just not willing to work HARD enough?).  I think the same thing happened with my wife, other than the taint of a past relationship and the fact we were actually married and not just discussing marriage.  Are there times when one should really just let go?  I was raised to feel like one would "give up anything" or "do anything" for one’s love, but now…  I don’t know.  I come from a family of enablers with a spot of alcoholism in the dead generations…  I don’t know if what I learned from them is always the best thing.  OTOH, I don’t know if it is best to just cut ties at the first sign of trouble.  I just don’t know. I’m scared of sex.  I’m scared of getting intimate with someone, getting committed, and then having them "shut down".  OF COURSE I know people aren’t always "in synch" and fully expect there to be some times ANY woman (and man) isn’t "in the mood", and the other partner SHOULD just drop it…  But a CONSISTENT PATTERN of "not in the mood" over and over is death for the relationship.  Maybe I just need to learn and accept THAT. I’m frightened of myself (I told my stbx this) because I know part of why we broke up was my innate desire for sex with many women.  What do I do about that in the future?  Will it pass?  Will I always feel this way?   Will I never be really satisfied?  Unfortunately, I have something of a conscience and can’t really bring myself to deceive women for sex, or constantly sneak around (even my affair on my wife was brought to her attention at the first sign of it…  Not that that’s an excuse, but it does say something).  I don’t want to go through life frustrated because I want something I can’t have.  Or can I have it?  Is a lifestyle of serial relationships (and honesty about what they are from the outset) such a bad thing?  I don’t know. Anyway…  I have a lot to sort out.  I’m glad I spoke with my stbx…   She is not a monster, even if she has a lot of problems and is someone I am probably much better off not sharing responsibilities with (although due to the baby I cannot really fully get out of that).  I feel like I need to take a break from being here, maybe permanently.  I know the posts under different names are what they are — thanks FloridaNB for appreciating them — but I wonder if they might actually be detracting from my ability to let go of the past, or maybe if I might just finally be ready to let go after all.  I used to post as a religious nut named BATTLEHYMN for years, back when I was upset about what happened with the fundamentalist woman.  I noticed I have pretty much stopped doing that since I got over HER.  I wonder which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Still not sure but going to take a break for a while, like I said. Well, I’m not sure if I got across what I wanted to…  Either way, I’m out of here for some time.  I hope you all find what happiness you are looking for.  Don’t let the

… read more »

Response:

Question:

but after a person has been caught repeatedly in lies it is hard to believe when they call wolf.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – where you there? I am not commenting on whether you are right or wrong about this, merely challenging your assumption that you could possibly know *everything* a person ever says…I am truly interested… Dee xxx

Response:

um…..I have never bitched about anything you ever said…we had a discussion about false memory syndrome a while back, and we talked about someone who was having a bad time in irc once…, so I would say every time… Dee xxx

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dee.. A question here for you..  When did you ever talk to me when you weren’t bitching about something I said here? : I am assuming that you haven’t been there…therefore you wouldn’t know : whether or not Liz was running the show…do you often form opinions with so : little information?…besides, if there is anything that this place has : taught me, it’s that it is really *easy* to be bitchy in 6 : posts…<laughing : : Dee xxx : : Well with only three of you and Liz running the show it would be hard to : be : bitchy in 6 posts : just my opnion though : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : Dee xxx : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : Message archive by month: :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec : 2001   6 : 2000                                    4 : : Members: 3 : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if : you : : want to join. : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : from : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must : do. : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : there : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : that : no : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : what : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : No : one : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would : be : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That : is : a : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us : are : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : carry : : that kind of burden. : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : this : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : would : : print it. : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : fair : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : — : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : never : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : grew : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : sense. : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you : and : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, : too. : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

i was there.. but you just brushed off my comments..

: where you there? : : I am not commenting on whether you are right or wrong about this, merely : challenging your assumption that you could possibly know *everything* a : person ever says…I am truly interested… : : Dee xxx :

: Also Jean never said ONE bad thing about Polly.  That was : Liz making the whole goddamned thing up.  Something she does : often and with orgasmic pleasure. : : : : I guess you also missed the part where Jean and Polly both : said I was there : : and a witness to the whole thing.. : : : : See, I speak from first hand observations. : : : : : : : I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I : said…this is : : : pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for : Polly jean and : : Liz, : : : that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not : think?what exactly is it : : that : : : you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round : of he said she : : saids : : : to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I : believe? Liz, : : because : : : she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or : maybe Jean because : : I : : : have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do : because I wasn’t there : : : is keep well out of it as I am aware that different : people have different : : : perpectives and that people often cover up for each : other from time to : : time : : : for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never : commented on who I : : : believe on this and I never will…and if you could get : past your hatred : : for : : : Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by : anyone, I am : : certainly : : : not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as : serioulsy as male : : : rape…I only wish that people in here could stop : playing at playground : : : warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is : right…when we see : : one : : : abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a : dangerous precedent…we : : : start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but : bad for : : children…it : : : would be nice to see some proper discussion of this : rather than the silly : : : schoolyard taunting : : : : : : Dee xxx : : : : : : : : : Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out : to rape jean : : posts : : : today? : : : : : : : : : : one of those members is me…and there at least : isn’t this level of : : : : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : : : : : : : Dee xxx : : : : : message : : : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : : : : : : : Message archive by month: : : : :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct : Nov  Dec : : : : 2001   6 : : : : 2000                                    4 : : : : : : : : Members: 3 : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff : goes on.  E mail me : : if : : : you : : : : : want to join. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : : : : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to : read several posts : : : from : : : : : you and some others indicating that you were : leaving and why. I : : am : : : : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you : must do what you : : must : : : do. : : : : : : : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group : in which to post : : as : : : : there : : : : : are so many in pain and so many different : pains. I also realize : : : that : : : : no : : : : : matter what you post or don’t post or how : carefully you might : : word : : : : what : : : : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or : hurt or triggered. : : : No : : : : one : : : : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that : fine line that : : would : : : be : : : : : required to not cause someone a moment of : grief or suffering. : : That : : : is : : : : a : : : : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and : fortunately none of : : us : : : are : : : : : required by any moral or ethical code with : which I am familiar : : to : : : : carry : : : : : that kind of burden. : : : : : : : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine : since childhood : : and : : : : this : : : : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate : here so I thought : : I : : : : would : : : : : print it. : : : : : : : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : : : : : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass : to a neighboring : : : fair : : : : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they : met with a troop : : of : : : : : women collected round a well, talking and : laughing.  "Look : : : : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see : such fellows, to be : : : : : trudging along the road on foot when they : might ride?’  The old : : : : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount : the Ass, and : : : : : continued to walk along merrily by his side. : Presently they : : came : : : : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate. : "There," said one : : of : : : : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What : respect is shown to : : : : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle : lad riding while his : : : : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young : scapegrace, and let : : : : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this : the old man made : : his : : : : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this : manner they had not : : : : : proceeded far when they met a company of women : and children: : : : : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several : tongues at once, "how : : : : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor : little lad there : : can : : : : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The : good-natured Miller : : : : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They : had now almost : : : : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," : said a citizen, "is : : : : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old : man.  "O, one would : : : : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the : way you load him. : : : : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry : the poor beast : : than : : : : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the : old man; "we can : : but : : : : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied : the legs of the Ass : : : : : : : together and with the help of a pole : endeavored to carry him on : : : : : their shoulders over a bridge near the : entrance to the town. : : : : : This entertaining sight brought the people in : crowds to laugh at : : : : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the : strange handling : : : : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that : bound him and, : : : : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river. : Upon this, the old : : : : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his : way home again, : : : : : convinced that by endeavoring to please : everybody he had pleased : : : : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : : : : — : : : : : : : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was : an experience I’ll : : : never : : : : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine : again. (I think it : : : grew : : : : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : : : : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to : override good common : : : sense. : : : : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : : : : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just : starting to get to know : : you : : : and : : : : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see : you lose your : : Ass, : : : too. : : : : : : : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

so dee you are saying jean may be lying in saying that no one attempted to rape her.  And there is the chance that pat is part of a conspiracy to cover up the attempted rape by me of jean.  oh & we had a webcam going at the time & many others were there too.  lets see james, i think tide & others. so i guess there is this chance that there may be a huge conspiracy going. lord god, no telling how many people might be involved in this. and i know you are not ignorant enough to think that liz backing up & several accusations later saying it is all cause it was a female & she is just trying to point out if it was a male etc,  etc.. i dont give a crap if you say anything to me about what you think.i wouldn’t expect you to.  i hardly know you from adam.  but yes, you have stated what you think right here.  you have stated that there is a chance that i attempted to rape jean & that there is a chance that jean is lying in saying it didn’t happen & that there is a chance that pat is covering up the whole sordid attempted rape.  oh & all those others who were watching…there’s a chance they are a part of the conspiracy. and yes i am emotional. i dont give a shit what you think of liz & i have stayed out of it until you brought me up.  I already know the truth & have responded to what pat has had to say concerning the situation, but now you have mentioned me so i am responding.  And yes, I am a bitch from hell, the fact that you could even have any doubts about this whole ridiculous thing is beyond my comprehension.  And yes, I feel a lot of animosity at you.

I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I said…this is pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for Polly jean and Liz, that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not think?what exactly is it that you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round of he said she saids to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I believe?

how could you be so ignorant to belive somene who wasnt anywhere around & it is not a he said she said.  it is someone going to a very public place & standing up & making false accusations aout me although the ones who were ther including the supposed victim denies it.  And as far as anyone else knows, has never not denied it. Liz, because she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or maybe Jean because I have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do because I wasn’t there is keep well out of it as I am aware that different people have different perpectives and that people often cover up for each other from time to time for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never commented on who I believe on this and I never will..

you just did .and if you could get past your hatred for Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by anyone, I am certainly not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as serioulsy as male rape..

that has nothing to do w/ the issue at all.  the issue is someone coming into an open & public place & making criminal allegations about someone. & i really dont fall for the bs of that you dont realize that .I only wish that people in here could stop playing at playground warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is right…when we see one abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a dangerous precedent…we start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but ba

that has not been the issue.  peopel are discussing the fact that liz has come into a public place & accused someone of a criminal act. d for children…it would be nice to see some proper discussion of this rather than the silly schoolyard taunting

there are discussions on this right at this moment.  if you would fiond it so nice why aren’t you participating.  but they werne’t brought up in relation to accusing someone of a criminal offense.  Is that your problem w/ participating in them.  cause i sure don’t see you doing it.

Response:

<sigh and I guess you are still not seeing the bigger picture

I guess you also missed the part where Jean and Polly both said I was there and a witness to the whole thing.. See, I speak from first hand observations.

see, I am not commenting… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I said…this is : pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for Polly jean and Liz, : that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not think?what exactly is it that : you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round of he said she saids : to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I believe? Liz, because : she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or maybe Jean because I : have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do because I wasn’t there : is keep well out of it as I am aware that different people have different : perpectives and that people often cover up for each other from time to time : for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never commented on who I : believe on this and I never will…and if you could get past your hatred for : Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by anyone, I am certainly : not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as serioulsy as male : rape…I only wish that people in here could stop playing at playground : warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is right…when we see one : abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a dangerous precedent…we : start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but bad for children…it : would be nice to see some proper discussion of this rather than the silly : schoolyard taunting : : Dee xxx : : : Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out to rape jean posts : today? : : : : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : : : Dee xxx : : : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : : : Message archive by month: : :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec : : 2001   6 : : 2000                                    4 : : : : Members: 3 : : : : : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if : you : : : want to join. : : : : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : from : : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must : do. : : : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : : there : : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : that : : no : : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : : what : : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : No : : one : : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would : be : : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That : is : : a : : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us : are : : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : : carry : : : that kind of burden. : : : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : : this : : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : : would : : : print it. : : : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : fair : : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : : — : : : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : never : : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : grew : : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : sense. : : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you : and : : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, : too. : : : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

where you there? I am not commenting on whether you are right or wrong about this, merely challenging your assumption that you could possibly know *everything* a person ever says…I am truly interested… Dee xxx

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also Jean never said ONE bad thing about Polly.  That was Liz making the whole goddamned thing up.  Something she does often and with orgasmic pleasure. : I guess you also missed the part where Jean and Polly both said I was there : and a witness to the whole thing.. : : See, I speak from first hand observations. : : : : I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I said…this is : : pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for Polly jean and : Liz, : : that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not think?what exactly is it : that : : you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round of he said she : saids : : to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I believe? Liz, : because : : she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or maybe Jean because : I : : have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do because I wasn’t there : : is keep well out of it as I am aware that different people have different : : perpectives and that people often cover up for each other from time to : time : : for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never commented on who I : : believe on this and I never will…and if you could get past your hatred : for : : Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by anyone, I am : certainly : : not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as serioulsy as male : : rape…I only wish that people in here could stop playing at playground : : warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is right…when we see : one : : abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a dangerous precedent…we : : start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but bad for : children…it : : would be nice to see some proper discussion of this rather than the silly : : schoolyard taunting : : : : Dee xxx : : : : : : Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out to rape jean : posts : : today? : : : : : : : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : : : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : : : : : Dee xxx : : : message : : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : : : : : Message archive by month: : : :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct Nov  Dec : : : 2001   6 : : : 2000                                    4 : : : : : : Members: 3 : : : : : : : : : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me : if : : you : : : : want to join. : : : : : : : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : : from : : : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I : am : : : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you : must : : do. : : : : : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post : as : : : there : : : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : : that : : : no : : : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might : word : : : what : : : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : : No : : : one : : : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that : would : : be : : : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. : That : : is : : : a : : : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of : us : : are : : : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar : to : : : carry : : : : that kind of burden. : : : : : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood : and : : : this : : : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought : I : : : would : : : : print it. : : : : : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : : : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : : fair : : : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop : of : : : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : : : continued to walk along merrily by his side. Presently they : came : : : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate. "There," said one : of : : : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made : his : : : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there : can : : : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast : than : : : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can : but : : : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : : : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river. Upon this, the old : : : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : : : — : : : : : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : : never : : : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : : grew : : : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : : sense. : : : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know : you : : and : : : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your : Ass, : : too. : : : : : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

I am assuming that you haven’t been there…therefore you wouldn’t know whether or not Liz was running the show…do you often form opinions with so little information?…besides, if there is anything that this place has taught me, it’s that it is really *easy* to be bitchy in 6 posts…<laughing Dee xxx

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well with only three of you and Liz running the show it would be hard to be bitchy in 6 posts just my opnion though one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of bitchinesas there…grow up pat Dee xxx nothing much of anything goes on there.. Message archive by month:   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec 2001   6 2000                                    4 Members: 3 : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you : want to join. : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry : that kind of burden. : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would : print it. : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : — : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. : They are frequently more powerful. : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. : : cozy :

Response:

Dee.. A question here for you..  When did you ever talk to me when you weren’t bitching about something I said here?

: I am assuming that you haven’t been there…therefore you wouldn’t know : whether or not Liz was running the show…do you often form opinions with so : little information?…besides, if there is anything that this place has : taught me, it’s that it is really *easy* to be bitchy in 6 : posts…<laughing : : Dee xxx :

: Well with only three of you and Liz running the show it would be hard to : be : bitchy in 6 posts : just my opnion though : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : Dee xxx : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : Message archive by month: :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec : 2001   6 : 2000                                    4 : : Members: 3 : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if : you : : want to join. : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : from : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must : do. : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : there : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : that : no : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : what : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : No : one : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would : be : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That : is : a : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us : are : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : carry : : that kind of burden. : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : this : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : would : : print it. : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : fair : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : — : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : never : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : grew : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : sense. : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you : and : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, : too. : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

I sincerely and with all my heart, Dee, hope that you never get to know Liz as well as I did.

: I am assuming that you haven’t been there…therefore you wouldn’t know : whether or not Liz was running the show…do you often form opinions with so : little information?…besides, if there is anything that this place has : taught me, it’s that it is really *easy* to be bitchy in 6 : posts…<laughing : : Dee xxx :

: Well with only three of you and Liz running the show it would be hard to : be : bitchy in 6 posts : just my opnion though : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : Dee xxx : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : Message archive by month: :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct Nov  Dec : 2001   6 : 2000                                    4 : : Members: 3 : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if : you : : want to join. : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : from : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must : do. : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : there : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : that : no : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : what : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : No : one : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would : be : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That : is : a : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us : are : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : carry : : that kind of burden. : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : this : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : would : : print it. : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : fair : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : continued to walk along merrily by his side. Presently they came : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate. "There," said one of : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man. "O, one would : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river. Upon this, the old : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : — : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : never : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : grew : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : sense. : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you : and : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, : too. : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

Also Jean never said ONE bad thing about Polly.  That was Liz making the whole goddamned thing up.  Something she does often and with orgasmic pleasure.

: I guess you also missed the part where Jean and Polly both said I was there : and a witness to the whole thing.. : : See, I speak from first hand observations. : :

: : I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I said…this is : : pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for Polly jean and : Liz, : : that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not think?what exactly is it : that : : you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round of he said she : saids : : to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I believe? Liz, : because : : she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or maybe Jean because : I : : have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do because I wasn’t there : : is keep well out of it as I am aware that different people have different : : perpectives and that people often cover up for each other from time to : time : : for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never commented on who I : : believe on this and I never will…and if you could get past your hatred : for : : Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by anyone, I am : certainly : : not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as serioulsy as male : : rape…I only wish that people in here could stop playing at playground : : warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is right…when we see : one : : abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a dangerous precedent…we : : start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but bad for : children…it : : would be nice to see some proper discussion of this rather than the silly : : schoolyard taunting : : : : Dee xxx : : : : : : Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out to rape jean : posts : : today? : : : : : : : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : : : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : : : : : Dee xxx : : : message : : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : : : : : Message archive by month: : : :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct Nov  Dec : : : 2001   6 : : : 2000                                    4 : : : : : : Members: 3 : : : : : : : : : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me : if : : you : : : : want to join. : : : : : : : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : : from : : : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I : am : : : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you : must : : do. : : : : : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post : as : : : there : : : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : : that : : : no : : : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might : word : : : what : : : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : : No : : : one : : : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that : would : : be : : : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. : That : : is : : : a : : : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of : us : : are : : : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar : to : : : carry : : : : that kind of burden. : : : : : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood : and : : : this : : : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought : I : : : would : : : : print it. : : : : : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : : : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : : fair : : : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop : of : : : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : : : continued to walk along merrily by his side. Presently they : came : : : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate. "There," said one : of : : : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made : his : : : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there : can : : : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast : than : : : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can : but : : : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : : : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river. Upon this, the old : : : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : : : — : : : : : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : : never : : : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : : grew : : : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : : sense. : : : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know : you : : and : : : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your : Ass, : : too. : : : : : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

I guess you also missed the part where Jean and Polly both said I was there and a witness to the whole thing.. See, I speak from first hand observations.

: I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I said…this is : pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for Polly jean and Liz, : that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not think?what exactly is it that : you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round of he said she saids : to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I believe? Liz, because : she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or maybe Jean because I : have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do because I wasn’t there : is keep well out of it as I am aware that different people have different : perpectives and that people often cover up for each other from time to time : for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never commented on who I : believe on this and I never will…and if you could get past your hatred for : Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by anyone, I am certainly : not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as serioulsy as male : rape…I only wish that people in here could stop playing at playground : warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is right…when we see one : abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a dangerous precedent…we : start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but bad for children…it : would be nice to see some proper discussion of this rather than the silly : schoolyard taunting : : Dee xxx :

: : Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out to rape jean posts : today? : : : : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : : : Dee xxx : : : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : : : Message archive by month: : :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec : : 2001   6 : : 2000                                    4 : : : : Members: 3 : : : : : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if : you : : : want to join. : : : : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts : from : : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must : do. : : : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : : there : : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize : that : : no : : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : : what : : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. : No : : one : : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would : be : : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That : is : : a : : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us : are : : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : : carry : : : that kind of burden. : : : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : : this : : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : : would : : : print it. : : : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring : fair : : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : : — : : : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll : never : : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it : grew : : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common : sense. : : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you : and : : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, : too. : : : : : : cozy : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :

Response:

I watched them the first time round….I stick to what I said…this is pathetic and a bit too kindergarten for me…and as for Polly jean and Liz, that is between Polly Jean and Liz. do you not think?what exactly is it that you think I am witnessing…looks like a merry go round of he said she saids to me <yawn…nobody is backing down, so who should I believe? Liz, because she is my friend? Polly because she is your friend? or maybe Jean because I have always gotten on with her? what I choose to do because I wasn’t there is keep well out of it as I am aware that different people have different perpectives and that people often cover up for each other from time to time for whatever reasons…for the record, I have never commented on who I believe on this and I never will…and if you could get past your hatred for Liz, you would see she has a point….female rape (by anyone, I am certainly not accusing Polly of anything here) is not taken as serioulsy as male rape…I only wish that people in here could stop playing at playground warfare and see the bigger picture…because Liz is right…when we see one abusive crime as ‘lesser’ than another, we set a dangerous precedent…we start to lose perpective, and that can be nothing but bad for children…it would be nice to see some proper discussion of this rather than the silly schoolyard taunting Dee xxx

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out to rape jean posts today? : one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : Dee xxx : : nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : Message archive by month: :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec : 2001   6 : 2000                                    4 : : Members: 3 : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you : : want to join. : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : there : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that : no : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : what : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No : one : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is : a : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : carry : : that kind of burden. : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : this : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : would : : print it. : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : — : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. : : : : cozy : : : : : :

Response:

Well with only three of you and Liz running the show it would be hard to be bitchy in 6 posts just my opnion though

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of bitchinesas there…grow up pat Dee xxx nothing much of anything goes on there.. Message archive by month:   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec 2001   6 2000                                    4 Members: 3 : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you : want to join. : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry : that kind of burden. : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would : print it. : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : — : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. : They are frequently more powerful. : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. : : cozy :

Response:

& i dont have your email address, so i will give you mine. i have come to the conclusion that i have a computer addiction, so will continue to have my server connected polly wog

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bikerbabe, I’d never stand in the way of you doing what you need for yourself, but I have to say that if your departure is permanent, I feel it will be a loss for the group.  I’ll miss you, and I’ll keep hoping for your return. Peace and strength, Tide Rider Hi Cozy, I am still here just for the moment to finish what was started and to answer a few posts from people to me but other than that I will be taking my leave, which may be permanent considering how I feel at the moment. Thank you for your concern and kind words, you are always welcome to email me anytime. There are many reasons for my leave other than what you have seen written here. I think that it is a good thing and long over due. I really enjoyed reading your posts. I have learned a great deal from you in the short time that you have been here and I thank you for that. We seem to be on the same wave length in alot of areas. I hope that you are on the mend and that you keep up with all of the good things that you are doing in your life and in others. Take care my friend, bikerbabe Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry that kind of burden. Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would print it.   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. — I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew when I wasn’t looking, too.) Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. They are frequently more powerful. I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. cozy

Response:

Hi cozy, This is a great post!  It’s definitely a keeper.  Thanks. Take Care, Saab

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry that kind of burden. Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would print it.   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. — I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew when I wasn’t looking, too.) Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. They are frequently more powerful. I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. cozy

Response:

Oh dee.. did you catch the polly is a predator and out to rape jean posts today?

: one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of : bitchinesas there…grow up pat : : Dee xxx :

: nothing much of anything goes on there.. : : Message archive by month: :   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec : 2001   6 : 2000                                    4 : : Members: 3 : : : : : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you : : want to join. : : : : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from : : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. : : : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as : there : : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that : no : : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word : what : : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No : one : : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be : : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is : a : : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are : : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to : carry : : that kind of burden. : : : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and : this : : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I : would : : print it. : : : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : : : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair : : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : : — : : : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never : : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew : : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. : : They are frequently more powerful. : : : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and : : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. : : : : cozy : : : : : :

Response:

one of those members is me…and there at least isn’t this level of bitchinesas there…grow up pat Dee xxx

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nothing much of anything goes on there.. Message archive by month:   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec 2001   6 2000                                    4 Members: 3 : There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you : want to join. : : : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry : that kind of burden. : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would : print it. : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : — : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. : They are frequently more powerful. : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. : : cozy :

Response:

What makes either of you think you have any idea which e group I am referring to?  Do you believe for a minute that I would let you know which group I am referring to?  Is that because when *you started the e group ripoff of my website you couldn;t wait to come let *me know? Some of us have a little more self control, Ladies, and the people *I* hang out with are a little more trustworthy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – nothing much of anything goes on there.. Message archive by month: Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2001 6 2000 4 Members: 3 damn it, pat!!!!!  how deceptive can you be??? this post definitely gives a false impression. because you did not use a font like Courier, which gives consistent spacing, it looks like the 4 (four) messages were posted between May and June of 2000 instead of November or December. The 6 (six) messages look like they were posted in February of 2001, which is a logical impossibility. azure — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

Response:

Because we arnt stupid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What makes either of you think you have any idea which e group I am referring to?  Do you believe for a minute that I would let you know which group I am referring to?  Is that because when *you started the e group ripoff of my website you couldn;t wait to come let *me know? Some of us have a little more self control, Ladies, and the people *I* hang out with are a little more trustworthy. nothing much of anything goes on there.. Message archive by month: Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 2001 6 2000 4 Members: 3 damn it, pat!!!!!  how deceptive can you be??? this post definitely gives a false impression. because you did not use a font like Courier, which gives consistent spacing, it looks like the 4 (four) messages were posted between May and June of 2000 instead of November or December. The 6 (six) messages look like they were posted in February of 2001, which is a logical impossibility. azure — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

Response:

Yes, you could be member number 4

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you want to join.

Response:

nothing much of anything goes on there.. Message archive by month:   Jan  Feb  Mar  Apr  May  Jun  Jul  Aug  Sep  Oct  Nov  Dec 2001   6 2000                                    4 Members: 3

: There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you : want to join. :

: : Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. : : I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from : you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am : sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. : : I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there : are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no : matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what : you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one : of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be : required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a : burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are : required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry : that kind of burden. : : Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this : fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would : print it. : :   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass : :   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair : to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of : women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look : there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be : trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old : man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and : continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came : up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of : them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to : old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his : old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let : the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his : son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not : proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: : "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how : can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can : hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller : immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost : reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is : that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would : not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. : Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than : he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but : try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass : together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on : their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. : This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at : it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling : that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, : tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old : man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, : convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased : nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. : — : : I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never : forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew : when I wasn’t looking, too.) : : Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. : They are frequently more powerful. : : I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and : I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. : : cozy :

Response:

There *is an e list where none of this stuff goes on.  E mail me if you want to join. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry that kind of burden. Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would print it.   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. — I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew when I wasn’t looking, too.) Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. They are frequently more powerful. I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. cozy

Response:

Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry that kind of burden. Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would print it.   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. — I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew when I wasn’t looking, too.) Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. They are frequently more powerful. I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. cozy

Response:

Bikerbabe, I’d never stand in the way of you doing what you need for yourself, but I have to say that if your departure is permanent, I feel it will be a loss for the group.  I’ll miss you, and I’ll keep hoping for your return. Peace and strength, Tide Rider

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Cozy, I am still here just for the moment to finish what was started and to answer a few posts from people to me but other than that I will be taking my leave, which may be permanent considering how I feel at the moment. Thank you for your concern and kind words, you are always welcome to email me anytime. There are many reasons for my leave other than what you have seen written here. I think that it is a good thing and long over due. I really enjoyed reading your posts. I have learned a great deal from you in the short time that you have been here and I thank you for that. We seem to be on the same wave length in alot of areas. I hope that you are on the mend and that you keep up with all of the good things that you are doing in your life and in others. Take care my friend, bikerbabe Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry that kind of burden. Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would print it.   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. — I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew when I wasn’t looking, too.) Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. They are frequently more powerful. I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. cozy

Response:

Hi Cozy, I am still here just for the moment to finish what was started and to answer a few posts from people to me but other than that I will be taking my leave, which may be permanent considering how I feel at the moment. Thank you for your concern and kind words, you are always welcome to email me anytime. There are many reasons for my leave other than what you have seen written here. I think that it is a good thing and long over due. I really enjoyed reading your posts. I have learned a great deal from you in the short time that you have been here and I thank you for that. We seem to be on the same wave length in alot of areas. I hope that you are on the mend and that you keep up with all of the good things that you are doing in your life and in others. Take care my friend, bikerbabe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bikerbabe and everyone else who reads this. I was unbelievably sorry and disappointed to read several posts from you and some others indicating that you were leaving and why. I am sorry to see you go and yet I know that you must do what you must do. I realize that this is a very difficult group in which to post as there are so many in pain and so many different pains. I also realize that no matter what you post or don’t post or how carefully you might word what you post, someone is likely to be offended or hurt or triggered. No one of us is perfectly able to forever walk that fine line that would be required to not cause someone a moment of grief or suffering. That is a burden too heavy for any of us to bear, and fortunately none of us are required by any moral or ethical code with which I am familiar to carry that kind of burden. Aesop and his wisdom have been friends of mine since childhood and this fable has stuck with me. It seems appropriate here so I thought I would print it.   The Miller, His Son, and Their Ass   A Miller and his son were driving their Ass to a neighboring fair to sell him.  They had not gone far when they met with a troop of women collected round a well, talking and laughing.  "Look there," cried one of them, "did you ever see such fellows, to be trudging along the road on foot when they might ride?’  The old man hearing this, quickly made his son mount the Ass, and continued to walk along merrily by his side.  Presently they came up to a group of old men in earnest debate.  "There," said one of them, "it proves what I was a-saying.  What respect is shown to old age in these days? Do you see that idle lad riding while his old father has to walk? Get down, you young scapegrace, and let the old man rest his weary limbs."  Upon this the old man made his son dismount, and got up himself.  In this manner they had not proceeded far when they met a company of women and children: "Why, you lazy old fellow," cried several tongues at once, "how can you ride upon the beast, while that poor little lad there can hardly keep pace by the side of you?’  The good-natured Miller immediately took up his son behind him.  They had now almost reached the town.    "Pray, honest friend," said a citizen, "is that Ass your own?’  "Yes," replied the old man.  "O, one would not have thought so," said the other, "by the way you load him. Why, you two fellows are better able to carry the poor beast than he you."  "Anything to please you," said the old man; "we can but try."  So, alighting with his son, they tied the legs of the Ass together and with the help of a pole endeavored to carry him on their shoulders over a bridge near the entrance to the town. This entertaining sight brought the people in crowds to laugh at it, till the Ass, not liking the noise nor the strange handling that he was subject to, broke the cords that bound him and, tumbling off the pole, fell into the river.  Upon this, the old man, vexed and ashamed, made the best of his way home again, convinced that by endeavoring to please everybody he had pleased nobody, and lost his Ass in the bargain. — I lost my Ass a long time ago, BB, and it was an experience I’ll never forget. Thankfully, I believe I’ve found mine again. (I think it grew when I wasn’t looking, too.) Pain and suffering have often been able to override good common sense. They are frequently more powerful. I am being selfish here, but I am just starting to get to know you and I will miss that. Besides, I don’t want to see you lose your Ass, too. cozy

Response:

Question:

That’s generally the way it went for me…but I didn’t lie, I made myself sick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i don’t know if anyone can relate; my fear is that nobody will. I have a little self-destructive ritual that i engage in which amounts to nothing more than malingering. I call in sick for work using elaborate lies and depleting precious sick-days. I do it even though i don’t want to really which is a theme in all of my self-destructive upsy-downsy fuck the world scenarios. So I do it and then I usually retreat to bed for long sleeping marathons whildst I thrash myself for being such a sick loser. I sometimes will go on a long run of good attendance where everyone thinks "gosh what a nice and healthy lad comming to work every day!" They don’t realize that I am plotting. It starts with a feeling that I should be paid for my brilliance and not for the mundane tasks that I am expected to do. I start thinking about applying my computer or music or writing or humor or some other "gift" that I have to make cash-ola. These gifts always result in a manic episode with not only no profit but total loss and wit me limping back to my regular unsatisfying profession. I suppose i should be grateful, as i said i was in my last posting. But also I say fuck gratitude! And i’m just thankful that I can say that. I’m going to work on monday with a tale of pneumonia…sigh

Response:

i don’t know if anyone can relate; my fear is that nobody will. I have a little self-destructive ritual that i engage in which amounts to nothing more than malingering. I call in sick for work using elaborate lies and depleting precious sick-days. I do it even though i don’t want to really which is a theme in all of my self-destructive upsy-downsy fuck the world scenarios. So I do it and then I usually retreat to bed for long sleeping marathons whildst I thrash myself for being such a sick loser. I sometimes will go on a long run of good attendance where everyone thinks "gosh what a nice and healthy lad comming to work every day!" They don’t realize that I am plotting. It starts with a feeling that I should be paid for my brilliance and not for the mundane tasks that I am expected to do. I start thinking about applying my computer or music or writing or humor or some other "gift" that I have to make cash-ola. These gifts always result in a manic episode with not only no profit but total loss and wit me limping back to my regular unsatisfying profession. I suppose i should be grateful, as i said i was in my last posting. But also I say fuck gratitude! And i’m just thankful that I can say that. I’m going to work on monday with a tale of pneumonia…sigh

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i don’t know if anyone can relate; my fear is that nobody will. I have a little self-destructive ritual that i engage in which amounts to nothing more than malingering. I call in sick for work using elaborate lies and depleting precious sick-days. I do it even though i don’t want to really which is a theme in all of my self-destructive upsy-downsy fuck the world scenarios. So I do it and then I usually retreat to bed for long sleeping marathons whildst I thrash myself for being such a sick loser. I sometimes will go on a long run of good attendance where everyone thinks "gosh what a nice and healthy lad comming to work every day!" They don’t realize that I am plotting. It starts with a feeling that I should be paid for my brilliance and not for the mundane tasks that I am expected to do. I start thinking about applying my computer or music or writing or humor or some other "gift" that I have to make cash-ola. These gifts always result in a manic episode with not only no profit but total loss and wit me limping back to my regular unsatisfying profession. I suppose i should be grateful, as i said i was in my last posting. But also I say fuck gratitude! And i’m just thankful that I can say that. I’m going to work on monday with a tale of pneumonia…sigh

I’m sorry, I did not answer your question. Yes, I can relate to your problem.  I have a very similar attitude to work.  I am not working now.  While I was working in the university environment it was not so bad. But I have worked in business and other environments as well, which I despised, and just were not suited to my "talents". I always looked for an opportunity to take a day off.   I suggest that the way to change this situation, is not by changing yourself (assuming you are stabilized on drugs) but to look for a department or work possibility in which you feel comfortable; just feel comfortable being there, and the work will come easier. best wishes Squiggles

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Hey girl… so many practical concerns

swimming.  You seem to be speeding along at ninety miles an hour, maybe that is necessary at times…..to reach your goals.  It is also a quick way to burn out, and get nothing  done. For what it is worth, One thing at a time, based on priority and you should be priority #1.  Just the view from here. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thumper ******* Without projection there can be no anger, but it is also true that without extension there can be no love.   ACIM

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swimming.  You seem to be speeding along at ninety miles an hour, maybe that is necessary at times…..to reach your goals.  It is also a quick way to burn out, and get nothing  done. For what it is worth, One thing at a time, based on priority and you should be priority #1.  Just the view from here. Vern

And I feel like crap, I think.  I’m not sure, sometimes.  I get little done. I’m trying to do this while being depressed and that is what is crushing and more depressing because it doesnt happen and my sense of duty becomes spat on and i feel so horrible when i can’t live up to the obligations ive made to others.

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: One thing at a time, based on priority and you should be priority : #1.  Just the view from here. This is real good advice Thump. A mantra. One thing at a time, and focus the best you can. I know where you are at. Get regular sleep every time you can. Save the up all night as a last resort to get something done. I’ve been there and it finally leads to the hospital. Health Work Charity Friends Try that order of things. If you know that you can not get everything done then at least do the most important things first This is very unsolicited too. It is just that I have been down this road so many times. You may want to rethink what meds you are taking. You should be better than this. I’m sorry. I hate to see you in confusion. Hopper

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This is real good advice Thump. A mantra. One thing at a time, and focus the best you can.

I know that is ideal.  One thing at a time–you mean a task–or only have one thing in my life going at a time. I just can’t do that.  I can’t live with one thing on my plate.  My bf and I talked about this all night last night.  He said, if you are putting at the top "taking better care of yourself" and you have fifteen things that are draining you to the bone underneath it but you don’t want to get rid of them…..then you’re not giong to do anything about any priority or reprioritization.  But I just don’t know.  I would like to know if there are any prioritization matricies online– like decision trees, but for prioritizing.  Maybe if I start cold/logical and distant….. I can’t see not working.   Need to do that. I can’t see leaving the melanoma foundation nor the mental illness and wellness foundations nor doing the wellness groups/trainings.  I have decided to not take a class next quarter.  Idecided for this moment that if I cannot get an incomplete in this class I am in that rather than stresss out and get a D, I will walk on it and take a F (which is a very major deal for me).  I am going to (started today in fact) work on my computer addiction, which has severely reduced my satisfaction with my life.  I am already eating much more and plan to switch from ‘everything in sight’ to ‘everything that is good for me in sight’  Scared me yesterday–scale said 118 and the lowest I ever remember was 125.  I am calling my pdoc and telling him he needs to replace the wellbutrin immediately because I am d/cing it. It is just that I have been down this road so many times.

You mean that you’d almost rather die than face the shame of fucking up everything.  I was wondering several things.  I moan about ’settling’ or having to sometime in the future.  Maybe my life right now is ’settled’–and maybe that is why I am so angry.  Learned helplessness? But then my mind tricks me into thinking its motivated == there lies the denial?  I don’t know.  Just another thought. You may want to rethink what meds you are taking. You should be better than this.

I’d hate to wipe the slate and start all over. I’m sorry. I hate to see you in confusion.

Don’t be sorry hon.  And I love your unsolicited advice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hopper

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:I know that is ideal.  One thing at a time–you mean a task–or only have ne thing in my life going at a time. I just can’t do that. I don’t mean one thing going on in your life at a time. This is impossible. I mean that you can only do one thing well at a time, two thing passable and three thing at one time you screw up or at least become less efficient and the end results are unsatisfying. Pick something and do think/do only that. Practice do things this way. BP means thinking on about ten things at once while doing three which are not related to the ones you are thinking about. This gets to be a habit and your mind strives to do more and more at once. I just think that this is an aspect of my illness, to think in this manner. I think that you share that trait with me. You may be worse than me. That is scary. I do my best work dog damn tired. It’s because my mind is too tired to play games and just gets it over with. Darkman keep harping at me about being obsessed with bi-polar. I am, but more than that my subconscious is too and has been since before I knew the word bipolar. I compete with myself. I AM obsessive in ways. At one time I played Solitaire for hours a day. Pam came in one day and watched me for a minute and got mad. She said that I was playing so fast that I couldn’t be trying to win. I had played it so much and analyzed the game so well that I knew what the rules were to maximize your chances of winning and had these rules down pat. I was now trying to see how fast I could play without messing up. The goal had changed from beating to playing without flaw. If I caught a flaw I lost. Then it became how fast I could play without flaw. The kindling was a blaze on those occasions. During that period I charred more neurons than I want to think about, no joke intended. The trick is to stop your mind, both conscious and sub, from playing these games. These drugs make me feel dumber. I took an IQ test a couple of days ago and made within two points of my other tests. Nothing has changed in my reasoning ability, but I still feel dumber. How come? I think that your problems stem at least in part to the same kind of thing. I was born wanting to know why. Why is the sky blue, why does the school serve kale on the day after they mow the lawn, why does a fart stink; I have been obsessed with knowing the why of everything. You are too. It makes you sick when you can not let your mind relax. You may have forgotten what it feels like to do this. As to the drugs, if you find that this particular combo is a dead ally, don’t just sit at the end of it. Either go back to main street or find crossover somewhere on the way back. I hate typing this. It might cause you some pain before you get any better. It may cause you to get worse. Relax your head some. See if you can. Hopper

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<<So I do it and then I usually retreat to bed for long sleeping marathons whildst I thrash myself for being such a sick loser. I used to do that a LOT in High school….i liked school…i liked being at school…it was more of an escape from the world sort of thing.  And I would sleep forever..often until the next day before school.  I did that a lot last year too when I was just working.  I think its all about escape…and it sucks, now I can’t sleep for rest, I associate it with escape and thus don’t sleep when sleepy, but only when I need to escape.  hard on the body, hard on the mind. no good at all. – Kathryn.                 [having fake hair does not make you a doll.]

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Hey girl… I know where you are, but not where you’ve been.  The bad thing about responsibilities, especially the ones we bestow upon ourselves is that when we are depressed we feel even more guilty about not taking care of them.  It is very important for you to do something that you care about.  You must realize the importance of each and every thing not just all of it as a whole.  I understand where people are telling to you cut back…you need not cut back everything for then you have nothing to achieve and from that retain a lack of self worth…however, one or two things here and there would probably not be a bad thing and would help to ease the guilt when you are feeling to depressed to pay attention to the others….I admire the fact that you want to do everything, but rather than doing everything and dragging yourself down, I say pick a couple of important things, give it your best shot and stay healthy by not running yourself down.  JMHO…good luck, honey. hugs — -judy http://www.keen.com/MrsMoonGoddess?ref=1 ***To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be the world.***

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so many practical concerns i feel so weird  im not typing so well tonight I have this anth project due in just over a week. Its big, huge much huger than me and my energy. i took this class to gain points in my record b/c nothing else fit in my schedule this quarter with work and volunteer and all of the inhuman selfsacrafice i do–all of the things that make me drained and sick in the end so it is uninteresting enough that it can’t draw my energy and the quarter is winding up, and i have this project due, and reading to do, and a final coming up and I want to withdraw to somehow save face from the D I will get. i compare to just two years ago–work fulltime, volunteer 12 hrs a week nightshift in a big position, maintain a marriage decently, and carrying a fulltime load at school and getting Aces.  my whole life feels totally stolen from me, and the memories almost like they could not possibly belong to me–i don’t feel like I own those memories–they should belong to someone more worthy. one of my pdocs, such a generous and sensitive guy who somehow conned my hmo into giving me 30 min appts no matter what (for a 15 min fee), said something alogn the lines of ‘when you are stable….you know you can because you know you have XYZ as strenghts"…and I don’t know if I have them anymore.  They feel missing.  I doubt myself into complete nonexistence sometimes.  Kind of like if a truck hit-it wouldn’t matter to me because I don’t exist to myself–though I know that for some reason there are people who love me dearly. so I have to go to the last class meeting see the prof and show her a few examples of the writeups I’m doing.  I almost just want to slip the whole trod of them under her door on the last day they aer due than to have her preevalueate them (her intent to be to help me improve them for the following week’s turn in).  I can’t stand facing anymore self inflicted shame. and I can’t withdraw.  should I just show up and turn in a half done project and an empty exam and walk out and never look back and stop beating myself.  Or is that an excuse to give up now.  What the hell am I doing. both of my docs and a couple of friends are telling me to STOP all of hte time.   STOP doing.  STOP DO-ING.  "you put too much energy directed to thiings outside of yourself".  Ie, cut back. Everything seems so important, so important, and with feelign so crappy about myself in some of these episodes, it is my responsibility to these committments that keeps me hanging on-I can’t imagine not having them and making it through some of the darkest times.  I work–boring work but benefits and it helps (with a housemate) keep a roof over me.  I can’t eliminate that one if I can help it-they are flexible about everything.  I’m on the board of The Melanoma Research Foundation. Very important to me-melanoma killed my husband. On the board of the Institute of Mental Illness and Wellness Education.  Educator of Wellness Recovery Action Plan strategies (non medicine based augmentation skills based practices desiged to assist in recovery). Participant in a couple of community mental health committees doing really  effective provider and community education campaigns. I want to finish school dammit.  I’ve been trying forever, since my first episode….some of the last words out of my husbands mouth were an encouragement to ‘go be a doctor’.  Maybe not a doctor, but a helper with certainty. Doggie Mommy. Etc.  I can’t see how I can pare any of these out of me. And so they say, I’m not going to be able to put enough energy into myself to do what I need to. i just feel soo frustrated. what i need is a few manic buddies to come over and whirl me up so I can do (or think I can do) everything and then come down after the days of hell have passed. Thumper ******* Without projection there can be no anger, but it is also true that without extension there can be no love.   ACIM

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Lord, you are so right. I made myself sick too. I just was more descriptive due to medical training. But I really was sick it’s just that you can’t call the office and say I can’t come in because I feel like a total loser today and I’m afraid to go out of my house. Thanks Bye the way I play the blues which keeps me happy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s generally the way it went for me…but I didn’t lie, I made myself sick i don’t know if anyone can relate; my fear is that nobody will. I have a little self-destructive ritual that i engage in which amounts to nothing more than malingering. I call in sick for work using elaborate lies and depleting precious sick-days. I do it even though i don’t want to really which is a theme in all of my self-destructive upsy-downsy fuck the world scenarios. So I do it and then I usually retreat to bed for long sleeping marathons whildst I thrash myself for being such a sick loser. I sometimes will go on a long run of good attendance where everyone thinks "gosh what a nice and healthy lad comming to work every day!" They don’t realize that I am plotting. It starts with a feeling that I should be paid for my brilliance and not for the mundane tasks that I am expected to do. I start thinking about applying my computer or music or writing or humor or some other "gift" that I have to make cash-ola. These gifts always result in a manic episode with not only no profit but total loss and wit me limping back to my regular unsatisfying profession. I suppose i should be grateful, as i said i was in my last posting. But also I say fuck gratitude! And i’m just thankful that I can say that. I’m going to work on monday with a tale of pneumonia…sigh

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Squiggles, The problem I have these days has to do with income. I feel as though I could take over the world make millions and be hosting the MTV music awards with (trying to think of someone absurd in the order of Pat Sajac, or Doug Llewellyn of the People’s Court, but I am drawing a blank) My fantasy is that I just lack focus and that if I found the right vehicle ect you get the picture. I’m a  guy with a penchant for hearing peoples problems and a headful of rock and roll star fantasies. Oh the mania! It fleeps me to my very snoul! Don’t ask about fleeps and snoul. I don’t know I don’t know (already said). I guess I just need to chop wood and cary water. Meaning, I need to get into the "zen" of my existance and quit being such a big baby. I need to ponder the (at this point I am so into my own bullshit it’s ridiculous. What I would say to me if I were you which I’m not is: Get off the cross we need the wood you big weirdo! At which point I would curl into a ball and suck my thumb and think "even squiggles hates me) Do you see the complexity here? It’s daunting sulloid

LOL – the complexity of it all; I think I get it.  You’re deep. So the mania, inspires you but you haven’t found an outlet, it seems, at least not a lucrative one. Well, I would say that you shouldn’t be sufferring mania at all if you are on the right medication. But you are very funny, and you write so well.  If everything else fails people like Squiggles will listen.  Not much money in that, I know. take care Squiggles

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Lord, you are so right. I made myself sick too. I just was more descriptive due to medical training. But I really was sick it’s just that you can’t call the office and say I can’t come in because I feel like a total loser today and I’m afraid to go out of my house.

I would have nausea and diarrhea in the morning when I was depressed…I knew what it was, but they don’t understand if you call in depressed…the more work I missed the more I would be depressed, so things would get worse until I lost the job.

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I remember at the height of one of my manias, I called in sick… My excuse?  I had the plague.

That’s cool. How did they take that, in stunned silence?

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No… they knew I was bipolar, so they sort of just accepted it. Worded something like "Ohhhhh GODDDDDDDDD I feel like I have the plague…. gurgle gurgle." L – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember at the height of one of my manias, I called in sick… My excuse?  I had the plague. That’s cool. How did they take that, in stunned silence?

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I remember at the height of one of my manias, I called in sick… My excuse?  I had the plague. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s generally the way it went for me…but I didn’t lie, I made myself sick i don’t know if anyone can relate; my fear is that nobody will. I have a little self-destructive ritual that i engage in which amounts to nothing more than malingering. I call in sick for work using elaborate lies

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Squiggles, The problem I have these days has to do with income. I feel as though I could take over the world make millions and be hosting the MTV music awards with (trying to think of someone absurd in the order of Pat Sajac, or Doug Llewellyn of the People’s Court, but I am drawing a blank) My fantasy is that I just lack focus and that if I found the right vehicle ect you get the picture. I’m a  guy with a penchant for hearing peoples problems and a headful of rock and roll star fantasies. Oh the mania! It fleeps me to my very snoul! Don’t ask about fleeps and snoul. I don’t know I don’t know (already said). I guess I just need to chop wood and cary water. Meaning, I need to get into the "zen" of my existance and quit being such a big baby. I need to ponder the (at this point I am so into my own bullshit it’s ridiculous. What I would say to me if I were you which I’m not is: Get off the cross we need the wood you big weirdo! At which point I would curl into a ball and suck my thumb and think "even squiggles hates me) Do you see the complexity here? It’s daunting sulloid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i don’t know if anyone can relate; my fear is that nobody will. I have a little self-destructive ritual that i engage in which amounts to nothing more than malingering. I call in sick for work using elaborate lies and depleting precious sick-days. I do it even though i don’t want to really which is a theme in all of my self-destructive upsy-downsy fuck the world scenarios. So I do it and then I usually retreat to bed for long sleeping marathons whildst I thrash myself for being such a sick loser. I sometimes will go on a long run of good attendance where everyone thinks "gosh what a nice and healthy lad comming to work every day!" They don’t realize that I am plotting. It starts with a feeling that I should be paid for my brilliance and not for the mundane tasks that I am expected to do. I start thinking about applying my computer or music or writing or humor or some other "gift" that I have to make cash-ola. These gifts always result in a manic episode with not only no profit but total loss and wit me limping back to my regular unsatisfying profession. I suppose i should be grateful, as i said i was in my last posting. But also I say fuck gratitude! And i’m just thankful that I can say that. I’m going to work on monday with a tale of pneumonia…sigh I’m sorry, I did not answer your question. Yes, I can relate to your problem.  I have a very similar attitude to work.  I am not working now.  While I was working in the university environment it was not so bad. But I have worked in business and other environments as well, which I despised, and just were not suited to my "talents". I always looked for an opportunity to take a day off. I suggest that the way to change this situation, is not by changing yourself (assuming you are stabilized on drugs) but to look for a department or work possibility in which you feel comfortable; just feel comfortable being there, and the work will come easier. best wishes Squiggles

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Question:

I still get a creepy kick out of selecting the menu option "Kill this Author…"

Yeah, but do simulated flies buzz around what’s left of them from that menu option? -Fred

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What program are you using to access usenet that allows you to use killfiles?  I’m currently using the newsreader built into Netscape Messenger … is there a way to set that up in there? Thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to use killfiles to keep from getting emotionally involved in the stuff that makes me angry. So far, it seems to be working. How strange, I primarily use killfiles for the exact opposite purpose, to track the assholes and people who think I’m an asshole (I give them a filter color of blood red on a death black background; you’d have to see the interface to know what I mean). Plus, to be fair to myself, whatever threads I find interesting (I’m not purely malevolent, really). The idea of an ASD purged of personal conflict is very strange to me, maybe someday I’ll try it. Of course, in such a world, I would probably be as boring as the ASD I would find myself faced with, and quickly lose interest. Mark

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Question:

I am badly addicted, if I can’t get logged on somewhere everyday, I really feel ill, I guess that is addiction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I am very interestind by internet addiction, and i make a research for my master in psychology about this question. Please, help me and go to see my web page http://cyber.logiweb.qc.ca Thanks! Julie   x-no-archive: yes     My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once….. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am badly addicted, if I can’t get logged on somewhere everyday, I really feel ill, I guess that is addiction. Hello! I am very interestind by internet addiction, and i make a research for my master in psychology about this question. Please, help me and go to see my web page http://cyber.logiweb.qc.ca Thanks! Julie   x-no-archive: yes     My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..

I saw a little cartoon quip the other day.  It showed a computer in front of the toilet stool, and the quip said something like "ok, I’m addicted"! That’s pretty bad when you have difficulties getting offline to use the bathroom. Mel

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am badly addicted, if I can’t get logged on somewhere everyday, I really feel ill, I guess that is addiction.     My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..

       Yes, you obviously suffer from a compulsion to go and/or go    online every single day. You cannot take a day or two off.        It seems comparable to needing to drink alcohol or coffee    everyday although you know both are bad for you. I sympathize with    you, believe me.         Fortunately I don’t have a PC at home so I can get out… Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While originally created as a communication vehicle to facilitate research among those in academia and the military, the world wide web has since become a medium for just about everyone. "The way some people have come to use this medium, however, has created a stir among the mental health community and Internet addiction has become a serious topic of discussion," Young writes. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV. Using pathological gambling as a model, an 8-item questionnaire was developed to differentiate "dependent" Internet users from non-dependent web surfers. As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)? -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction? -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use? -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting

to cut down or stop Internet use? -Do you stay online longer than originally intended? -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet? -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet? -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?"

   Some other questions to consider…    Is your relationship with a significant other or relative jeoparized   as a result of spending too much time online (eg newsgroups, surfing,   discussion boards (Usenet et al)?    Are you carried away with Newsgroup or discussion boards so that   you must go to them everyday?    Is anger experienced through interaction in heated arguments on    NGS, discussion boards carried over into your daily life and    taken out on significant others, relatives or friends?    :-) Before you buy.

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I am badly addicted, if I can’t get logged on somewhere everyday, I really feel ill, I guess that is addiction.

different things. Jackie

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Mel, thanks for posting this. I have thought the same thing. Access to the net has been a blessing for me thru my anxiety ordeal. Other than my therapy group, no one really wants to discuss alot of my issues and I don’t blame them. No more than I want to discuss quilting or chess. One day it will be less necessary for me to be be online, but for now…I am emotionally needy and it is more of a lifeline. Granted, my family is my main focus, and they try and understand but I KNOW you guys do understand. And, on top of that, if I don’t understand something you’re speaking of, I can go all over the web and read about it. Knowledge calms me as I can really overract emotionally til I know what’s what. I thank you for setting this straight. As a matter of fact, they are installing the net in some nursing home facilities so the elders that are able,can surf too. And it’s working to keep them stimulated. They have a bit more patience w/age and can do some interacting other than watching TV or seeing the same old (no pun intended) people day after day. Miriam P.S. Also, there are not only older people in nursing homes, but amputees, veterans, and various others sticken with diseases that render one helpless to do very much. If you put yourself in their place, YOU would probably want to go ONLINE too. Alot…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah hem!  I wrote about a cartoon quip, not that I could not get out on the house…. And this is a NG where people suffer from agoraphobia, which prevents them from leaving the house, so the internet may be their only source for communicating with other people. Having agoraphobia is a lot different from internet addiction. Mel

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mel, thanks for posting this. I have thought the same thing. Access to the net has been a blessing for me thru my anxiety ordeal. Other than my therapy group, no one really wants to discuss alot of my issues and I don’t blame them. No more than I want to discuss quilting or chess. One day it will be less necessary for me to be be online, but for now…I am emotionally needy and it is more of a lifeline. Granted, my family is my main focus, and they try and understand but I KNOW you guys do understand. And, on top of that, if I don’t understand something you’re speaking of, I can go all over the web and read about it. Knowledge calms me as I can really overract emotionally til I know what’s what. I thank you for setting this straight. As a matter of fact, they are installing the net in some nursing home facilities so the elders that are able,can surf too. And it’s working to keep them stimulated. They have a bit more patience w/age and can do some interacting other than watching TV or seeing the same old (no pun intended) people day after day. Miriam P.S. Also, there are not only older people in nursing homes, but amputees, veterans, and various others sticken with diseases that render one helpless to do very much. If you put yourself in their place, YOU would probably want to go ONLINE too. Alot…… Ah hem!  I wrote about a cartoon quip, not that I could not get out on the house…. And this is a NG where people suffer from agoraphobia, which prevents them from leaving the house, so the internet may be their only source for communicating with other people. Having agoraphobia is a lot different from internet addiction. Mel  I agree. i know someone whose badly depressed, overeating

compulsively and home alone. Her mother died recently and now she has no one to take care of but herself.  She’s obviously not doing well at it. I was thinking what she needed was a computer to get online to  give her some contact with someone other then her demons.  Overdoing anything can be dangerous. "Excess within moderation" was how Camus put it.    dbmetzger Before you buy.

Response:

I am badly addicted, if I can’t get logged on somewhere everyday, I really feel ill, I guess that is addiction. very different things.

  Maybe, maybe not. But addiction results from a dependency or vice-   versa. Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Miriam) Mel, thanks for posting this. I have thought the same thing. Access to the net has been a blessing for me thru my anxiety ordeal. Other than my therapy group, no one really wants to discuss alot of my issues and I don’t blame them. No more than I want to discuss quilting or chess. One day it will be less necessary for me to be be online, but for now…I am emotionally needy and it is more of a lifeline. Granted, my family is my main focus, and they try and understand but I KNOW you guys do understand. And, on top of that, if I don’t understand something you’re speaking of, I can go all over the web and read about it. Knowledge calms me as I can really overract emotionally til I know what’s what. I thank you for setting this straight.

(snipped some) Anytime Miriam! Mel

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am badly addicted, if I can’t get logged on somewhere everyday, I really feel ill, I guess that is addiction.     My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..       Yes, you obviously suffer from a compulsion to go and/or go   online every single day. You cannot take a day or two off.       It seems comparable to needing to drink alcohol or coffee   everyday although you know both are bad for you. I sympathize with   you, believe me.        Fortunately I don’t have a PC at home so I can get out…

Ah hem!  I wrote about a cartoon quip, not that I could not get out on the house…. And this is a NG where people suffer from agoraphobia, which prevents them from leaving the house, so the internet may be their only source for communicating with other people. Having agoraphobia is a lot different from internet addiction. Mel

Response:

Hello! I am very interestind by internet addiction, and i make a research for my master in psychology about this question. Please, help me and go to see my web page http://cyber.logiweb.qc.ca Thanks! Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   x-no-archive: yes     My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

(Completion of my first posting re. Internet addiction … of my 16-yr. old son) On the positive side, I’ve managed to keep my son attending a contemporary issues religious class twice a month without too much protest on his part (I think due to social appeal), as well as playing trumpet.  He is in the marching band this year, and this forces him to be outside and attend the school football games.  Unfortunately, he has not (yet?) resumed playing in the roller hockey league because he wanted "to get adjusted to tenth grade." Last week, my son got the good news that he will work at a (games) software store in the mall.  This should get him interacting with people in real life and away from his computer.  (He seems all too knowledgeable about the products.)  This has been my approach:  to attempt to channel his obsession with the computer into constructive uses.  My son did well in a CAD animation course at the local community college this past summer, and he is now taking a Pascal course in high school (started out doing well; just informed me he’s had problems the last couple of weeks — I hope he seeks/accepts help).  I’m hoping the computer field will be his salvation.  (I, myself am taking an Intro. to Internet course at the community college, in large part to attempt to understand the "enemy".  I have a long way to go.) Now that he has turned 16 this month, my son is eager to get his driver’s license.  We’ve made it clear to him that this is contingent upon good grades ("insurance break").  I hope this will motivate him toward more study/less Internet entertainment. ( "Sleep deprivation and physical complaints…are ‘associated

features’ of pathological dependence on the Internet, according to Young." Again, things could be worse.  My son now seems to go to sleep at a fairly reasonable time on school nights.) The psychologist we saw cautioned us not to take the computer away from my son.  (Predictably, my son "freaked" when we came close to doing this.)  He did not give us a handle, though, as to how to promote self-regulation/moderation in one I see as Internet-obsessed/dependent. (My other son, age 12, uses the Internet — mostly for games– in far more moderation, interspersed with friends, sports, reading, t.v., movies, etc.)  Any ideas you have would no doubt help others in similar situations, and I would be most grateful for them.  Potential (if not yet full-blown) "Internet addiction" is all too real to me, and I offer this "case report" (as Richard Prekodravac cited the need for in his posting response to that of Susannah Tiller)of my son as an example. Many thanks, Arna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Diagnostic Criteria For Internet Addiction Proposed WESTPORT, Sep 30 (Reuters Health) – Internet addiction is a "…new phenomenon that many [health professionals] are unaware of and consequently unprepared to treat." Kimberly S. Young, executive director of the Center for Online Addiction in Bradford, Pennsylvania, makes the statement in an editorial in the October issue of the Student British Medical Journal. While originally created as a communication vehicle to facilitate research among those in academia and the military, the world wide web has since become a medium for just about everyone. "The way some people have come to use this medium, however, has created a stir among the mental health community and Internet addiction has become a serious topic of discussion," Young writes. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV. Using pathological gambling as a model, an 8-item questionnaire was developed to differentiate "dependent" Internet users from non-dependent web surfers. As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)? -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction? -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use? -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use? -Do you stay online longer than originally intended? -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet? -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet? -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?" Sleep deprivation and physical complaints such as back strain, eyestrain and carpal tunnel syndrome are "associated features" of pathological dependence on the Internet, according to Young. The term Internet addiction, Young notes, is a "…broad term covering a wide variety of behaviours and impulse control problems." Researchers currently recognize five subtypes of addiction, she says. The subtypes are cybersexual addiction, cyber-relationship addiction, net compulsions, information overload and computer addiction. Current treatment modalities for people with Internet addiction include "…cognitive behavioral and interpersonal psychotherapy to regulate and moderate Internet use," Young writes, with a focus on resolving "…underlying psychosocial issues [that] often coexist with this addiction." Student BMJ 1999;7:351-352.

Before you buy.

Response:

Diagnostic Criteria For Internet Addiction Proposed WESTPORT, Sep 30 (Reuters Health)

In my first attempt to post this (I’m a pathetic newbie; this in my sixth attempt!  I’m on a first name basis with "Dot" in Deja Customer Service) I said:  To the extent that Internet addiction is real, I believe it exists in my 16-year old son.  In the intervening time, I have been reading the postings of Susannah Tiller.  I now realize that things could be worse, and that while my son has what I consider an obvious compulsion toward the Internet, it is not (yet) an "addiction", if only because of outside interventions (my "need to nag", society’s expectations for school attendance, etc.) that impinge upon this minor. – Internet addiction is a "…new phenomenon that many [health professionals] are unaware of and consequently unprepared to treat." Kimberly S. Young, executive director of the Center for Online Addiction in Bradford, Pennsylvania, makes the statement in an editorial in the October issue of the Student British Medical Journal. Student BMJ;7:351-352

This has been my eaxperience.  The otherwise-competent psychologist my family saw a few times was not really able to help us in this area. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV.

Question:  Have self-help groups, such as 12-step "Gamblers Anonymous" been set up yet?  Would they work for one who is in denial of an Internet "dependency" (and who would not go to them willingly)? As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users.

My son answered yes (fairly spontaneously and, I believe, honestly) to five of the eight questions. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)?

Yes -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction?

Yes -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use?

No.  I consider this a negative sign, though.  My son has not tried/felt the need to cut back. -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use?

Yes.  (In my son’s case, when he is prevented from getting to/staying on the Internet.) -Do you stay online longer than originally intended?

Yes -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet?

No.  "Not yet" would be more like it, I think.  Actually, his studies are suffering.  (Excessive Internet use probably played a role, too, in the break-up by a summer girlfriend due to attention focused elsewhere.) -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet?

No -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?"

Yes The term Internet addiction, Young notes, is a "…broad term covering a wide variety of behaviours and impulse control problems."

My son has always been one impulsive child! As you can tell from my editorial comments about two of the three No answers, I don’t think my son recognizes/acknowledges that he has an Internet abuse problem. From what I can tell (my son bought and assembled his own computer system, so it is in his bedroom, of course), my son spends most of his time chatting (instant messages) to friends (he claims/I believe) he knows in real life, about "downloads" among other (??) topics.  (He does not use the phone for this purpose.  He has always been a "boy of few words"; he has a verbal learning disability.) Current treatment modalities for people with Internet addiction include "…cognitive behavioral and interpersonal psychotherapy to regulate and moderate Internet use," Young writes, with a focus on resolving "…underlying psychosocial issues [that] often coexist with this addiction."

My son has always managed to have a few good friends, but I notice that he is not spending as much time with any of them this year as he did previously (part of each weekend). Please see rest in a second posting. Thanks, Arna Before you buy.

Response:

The internet can be a double edged sword, but I would hardly call an agoraphobic lazy. For those who can’t get support in RL, this may be of great importance to them. There are other things to do on the net, both good and bad. I know what you’re saying though Mike, we can get drawn in too much, but I still think it is better than having limited contact with others. You know, without the net, I would probably be miserable, because at this point in my life, going out all the time is not possible. Holding a steady job outside would set me back, I’m not ready for that. So I have used the internet to my advantage. Instead of my old way of feeling miserable because I couldn’t get out more, I work from my office, there is lots of opportunities to make an income on the computer. This I don’t bring up in here, as I come here to offer and get support. For me, it’s hard to find a balance between here, family, my "own" time, and working to make a living, but so far I’m getting by. It can be addictive, but the alternative seems much worse to me. Don’t take the hammer to your PC just yet, you’ll probably miss it as much as I did:) Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  x-no-archive: yes    My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..

Response:

Hi Charla!  We’re bonding!  hehe Mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Mel, I must see my self in your words.Thats why I have a <VBG Just letting you know! Buh BYe, Charla — Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace.                                                 ~Amilia Earhart Putnam Ok, the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem.  I admit that I spend way too much time on the net.  I don’t use "chat rooms".  I did when I first started, but it got old.  My husband feels that it is easy for me to give up things because I hate to feel like I "need" anything.  Many in my family have said the same thing about me. For the most part, anything that involves a crowd will make me stay away, this includes work (although I have managed to keep a job up until last week) and play.  The internet involves a crowd that I can’t see, so I can do this. So it’s easy for me to do.  I’m like a kid with a new toy.  When it gets old, I’ll put it away. Then I’ll have to pick up a new bad habit…that’s life. I don’t smoke, I play bingo occasionally, I hate going to the race track or dog track, I use the Stock Market net thing, and I don’t play cards.  I drink in moderation.  My biggest time waster is the net.  I don’t know if that’s good or bad. What would I do if I didn’t use the internet? Sit around and watch soap operas (maybe) or clean around the house more (I hate housework.).  Spend more time with the kids (now that’s a good one). Mel (Chip) Diagnostic Criteria For Internet Addiction Proposed WESTPORT, Sep 30 (Reuters Health) – Internet addiction is a "…new phenomenon that many [health professionals] are unaware of and consequently unprepared to treat." Kimberly S. Young, executive director of the Center for Online Addiction in Bradford, Pennsylvania, makes the statement in an editorial in the October issue of the Student British Medical Journal. While originally created as a communication vehicle to facilitate research among those in academia and the military, the world wide web has since become a medium for just about everyone. "The way some people have come to use this medium, however, has created a stir among the mental health community and Internet addiction has become a serious topic of discussion," Young writes. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV. Using pathological gambling as a model, an 8-item questionnaire was developed to differentiate "dependent" Internet users from non-dependent web surfers. As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)? -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction? -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use? -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use? -Do you stay online longer than originally intended? -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet? -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet? -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?" Sleep deprivation and physical complaints such as back strain, eyestrain and carpal tunnel syndrome are "associated features" of pathological dependence on the Internet, according to Young. The term Internet addiction, Young notes, is a "…broad term covering a wide variety of behaviours and impulse control problems." Researchers currently recognize five subtypes of addiction, she says. The subtypes are cybersexual addiction, cyber-relationship addiction, net compulsions, information overload and computer addiction. Current treatment modalities for people with Internet addiction include "…cognitive behavioral and interpersonal psychotherapy to regulate and moderate Internet use," Young writes, with a focus on resolving "…underlying psychosocial issues [that] often coexist with this addiction." Student BMJ 1999;7:351-352.

To email me remove "nocrap" from my email address.

Response:

Ok, the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem.  I admit that I spend way too much time on the net.  I don’t use "chat rooms".  I did when I first started, but it got old.  My husband feels that it is easy for me to give up things because I hate to feel like I "need" anything.  Many in my family have said the same thing about me.   For the most part, anything that involves a crowd will make me stay away, this includes work (although I have managed to keep a job up until last week) and play.  The internet involves a crowd that I can’t see, so I can do this.  So it’s easy for me to do.  I’m like a kid with a new toy.  When it gets old, I’ll put it away. Then I’ll have to pick up a new bad habit…that’s life. I don’t smoke, I play bingo occasionally, I hate going to the race track or dog track, I use the Stock Market net thing, and I don’t play cards.  I drink in moderation.  My biggest time waster is the net.  I don’t know if that’s good or bad. What would I do if I didn’t use the internet? Sit around and watch soap operas (maybe) or clean around the house more (I hate housework.).  Spend more time with the kids (now that’s a good one). Mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Chip) Diagnostic Criteria For Internet Addiction Proposed WESTPORT, Sep 30 (Reuters Health) – Internet addiction is a "…new phenomenon that many [health professionals] are unaware of and consequently unprepared to treat." Kimberly S. Young, executive director of the Center for Online Addiction in Bradford, Pennsylvania, makes the statement in an editorial in the October issue of the Student British Medical Journal. While originally created as a communication vehicle to facilitate research among those in academia and the military, the world wide web has since become a medium for just about everyone. "The way some people have come to use this medium, however, has created a stir among the mental health community and Internet addiction has become a serious topic of discussion," Young writes. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV. Using pathological gambling as a model, an 8-item questionnaire was developed to differentiate "dependent" Internet users from non-dependent web surfers. As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)? -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction? -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use? -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use? -Do you stay online longer than originally intended? -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet? -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet? -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?" Sleep deprivation and physical complaints such as back strain, eyestrain and carpal tunnel syndrome are "associated features" of pathological dependence on the Internet, according to Young. The term Internet addiction, Young notes, is a "…broad term covering a wide variety of behaviours and impulse control problems." Researchers currently recognize five subtypes of addiction, she says. The subtypes are cybersexual addiction, cyber-relationship addiction, net compulsions, information overload and computer addiction. Current treatment modalities for people with Internet addiction include "…cognitive behavioral and interpersonal psychotherapy to regulate and moderate Internet use," Young writes, with a focus on resolving "…underlying psychosocial issues [that] often coexist with this addiction." Student BMJ 1999;7:351-352.

To email me remove "nocrap" from my email address.

Response:

Hi Mel, I must see my self in your words.Thats why I have a <VBG Just letting you know! Buh BYe, Charla — Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace.                                                  ~Amilia Earhart Putnam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem.  I admit that I spend way too much time on the net.  I don’t use "chat rooms".  I did when I first started, but it got old.  My husband feels that it is easy for me to give up things because I hate to feel like I "need" anything.  Many in my family have said the same thing about me. For the most part, anything that involves a crowd will make me stay away, this includes work (although I have managed to keep a job up until last week) and play.  The internet involves a crowd that I can’t see, so I can do this. So it’s easy for me to do.  I’m like a kid with a new toy.  When it gets old, I’ll put it away. Then I’ll have to pick up a new bad habit…that’s life. I don’t smoke, I play bingo occasionally, I hate going to the race track or dog track, I use the Stock Market net thing, and I don’t play cards.  I drink in moderation.  My biggest time waster is the net.  I don’t know if that’s good or bad. What would I do if I didn’t use the internet? Sit around and watch soap operas (maybe) or clean around the house more (I hate housework.).  Spend more time with the kids (now that’s a good one). Mel (Chip) Diagnostic Criteria For Internet Addiction Proposed WESTPORT, Sep 30 (Reuters Health) – Internet addiction is a "…new phenomenon that many [health professionals] are unaware of and consequently unprepared to treat." Kimberly S. Young, executive director of the Center for Online Addiction in Bradford, Pennsylvania, makes the statement in an editorial in the October issue of the Student British Medical Journal. While originally created as a communication vehicle to facilitate research among those in academia and the military, the world wide web has since become a medium for just about everyone. "The way some people have come to use this medium, however, has created a stir among the mental health community and Internet addiction has become a serious topic of discussion," Young writes. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV. Using pathological gambling as a model, an 8-item questionnaire was developed to differentiate "dependent" Internet users from non-dependent web surfers. As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)? -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction? -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use? -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use? -Do you stay online longer than originally intended? -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet? -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet? -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?" Sleep deprivation and physical complaints such as back strain, eyestrain and carpal tunnel syndrome are "associated features" of pathological dependence on the Internet, according to Young. The term Internet addiction, Young notes, is a "…broad term covering a wide variety of behaviours and impulse control problems." Researchers currently recognize five subtypes of addiction, she says. The subtypes are cybersexual addiction, cyber-relationship addiction, net compulsions, information overload and computer addiction. Current treatment modalities for people with Internet addiction include "…cognitive behavioral and interpersonal psychotherapy to regulate and moderate Internet use," Young writes, with a focus on resolving "…underlying psychosocial issues [that] often coexist with this addiction." Student BMJ 1999;7:351-352. To email me remove "nocrap" from my email address.

Response:

(MsLadyMel)

 I use ****don’t**** (picked up that error.  I don’t even play with the stocks!) the Stock Market net thing, and I don’t play cards.  I drink in moderation.  My biggest time waster is the net.  I don’t know if that’s good

Just wanted to point out that error.  I don’t have that kind of money to lose, so I don’t have that kind of money to win. Mel To email me remove "nocrap" from my email address.

Response:

hey nj……are you sure it’s the internet you are addicted to? I thought that the internet was my problem, but it turns out that I’m really addicted to porn. Porn is what keeps me going….. Everything is is just a diversion

  x-no-archive: yes     My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(new jersey)  x-no-archive: yes    My problem is that i’m just so friggin addicted to this internet….So many places to go, so much to look at… So much to do.. But lately I’ve been taking a more serious attitude towards this..I’m forcing myself to go out and go to places .. I cant stand being a lazy ass all the time… And being so hooked on this… Look out in the future !!!!! Our kids our going to be lazier and lazier with this kind of lifestyle…The only reason the internet is good is because people can reach out to others , and you can learn so much on it… The bad side – People who cant seem to get away from it or rely on it for support all the time are going to be very lazy ass people…. You have to kick yourself in the ass and get serious… Because more and more people are gettin very addicted , and home bound by this…Sometimes I just want to break this thing with a sledge hammer , so I can start my life for once…..

You got a point there, Mike.  I use this computer to not think about things.  I can waste lots of useful hours just browsing the web.  Now, that I’m not working I have to really watch out.  I got to get a job pretty damn quick that’s PDQ or I’m going to be SOL and F’d up too. Mel To email me remove "nocrap" from my email address.

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Diagnostic Criteria For Internet Addiction Proposed WESTPORT, Sep 30 (Reuters Health) – Internet addiction is a "…new phenomenon that many [health professionals] are unaware of and consequently unprepared to treat." Kimberly S. Young, executive director of the Center for Online Addiction in Bradford, Pennsylvania, makes the statement in an editorial in the October issue of the Student British Medical Journal. While originally created as a communication vehicle to facilitate research among those in academia and the military, the world wide web has since become a medium for just about everyone. "The way some people have come to use this medium, however, has created a stir among the mental health community and Internet addiction has become a serious topic of discussion," Young writes. Internet addiction is most akin to pathological gambling, Young writes in her editorial, based on criteria contained in DSM-IV. Using pathological gambling as a model, an 8-item questionnaire was developed to differentiate "dependent" Internet users from non-dependent web surfers. As Young explains in her editorial, patients answering yes to five or more of the following questions may be considered pathologic Internet users. "-Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (you think about previous online activity or anticipate next session)? -Do you feel the need to use the Internet for increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction? -Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back or stop Internet use? -Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use? -Do you stay online longer than originally intended? -Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of a significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet? -Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet? -Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (for example, feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety or depression)?" Sleep deprivation and physical complaints such as back strain, eyestrain and carpal tunnel syndrome are "associated features" of pathological dependence on the Internet, according to Young. The term Internet addiction, Young notes, is a "…broad term covering a wide variety of behaviours and impulse control problems." Researchers currently recognize five subtypes of addiction, she says. The subtypes are cybersexual addiction, cyber-relationship addiction, net compulsions, information overload and computer addiction. Current treatment modalities for people with Internet addiction include "…cognitive behavioral and interpersonal psychotherapy to regulate and moderate Internet use," Young writes, with a focus on resolving "…underlying psychosocial issues [that] often coexist with this addiction." Student BMJ 1999;7:351-352.

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That’s not saying much, is it?  The software I use (none of it Microsoft, not even the OS) rarely crashes – once every 3 or 4 months, maybe.

I have a Unix system as well as my Windows system… Unix crashed once 6 months ago, so I know what you mean….

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: : Get yourself a decent newsreader.  Hint: anything : that comes packaged with a web browser isn’t worthy of the name – Well is there anything else that IS good that I can get free? Donna

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: : Get yourself a decent newsreader.  Hint: anything : that comes packaged with a web browser isn’t worthy of the name – Well is there anything else that IS good that I can get free?

A lot of people seem to like Free Agent. –Paul

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: : Get yourself a decent newsreader.  Hint: anything : that comes packaged with a web browser isn’t worthy of the name – Well is there anything else that IS good that I can get free? A lot of people seem to like Free Agent.

Yeah, Donna, I was going to suggest it, since Paul mentioned it before. That’s what I use, not so much to avoid evil Microsoft but because I have an old computer with limited RAM and it lets me read usenet without having to take up extra RAM opening the full browser. A couple of other nice features, although no spam filters on the Windows 3x version (might be there for the 95/98 newer version and is definitely available in the Agent for pay version) You can download it off the net at http://www.forteinc.com -Kim

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I have a Unix system as well as my Windows system… Unix crashed once 6 months ago, so I know what you mean….

I still say that’s a less than manly sounding OS. I just get the feeling something important is missing from it. "May the good lord take a likin’ to ya’ and blow ya’ up real soon!"

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I have a Unix system as well as my Windows system… Unix crashed once 6 months ago, so I know what you mean…. I still say that’s a less than manly sounding OS. I just get the feeling something important is missing from it.

Yeah, it’s a programmer’s pun.  They were originally working on a multi-user system called Multics but the funding vanished so they produced a cut-down version called Unix… –Paul

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Name: JOJO Age: 37 First noticed I had PPS: 8 years ago Family History: Great Uncle Onset: don’t know Type: Pustular Works for me: Temovate; been in remission for 8 years. Well, it came back a month ago, but only have 1% on one foot. Worst: 20% feet, 35% hands

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The % I am using is on a 100% scale, as best I can figure.  I think the docs consider total coverage at 40%, correct?

Err, what does that mean? Is it kind of like 100% proof in booze (ie, a useless measure?) 1. I have heard (in this newsgroup) that coverage is generally expressed in 0-100%; however, it was also posted that docs consider ‘total’ coverage to be 40% (thus, a 0-40% scale).  I don’t know any more about this subject than what I just wrote.  Therefore, it is understanding that you have TWO scales, 0-100%, and 0-40%.  Understand? 2. You can’t have 100% "proof" in alcohol.  You have 100 proof or 50%. I assume this is what you were getting at; however; it is not even a ‘measure’, useless or otherwise — it is nonsense. 3. Since posting, I read something about ‘the rule of nines’ on Deja News (my news server is still messed up).  Following that, I am probably 10-15% covered at present, and was 90%. -J. — J. Scott Davis jscottdavis AT alltel DOT net    ;-) "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." – Hebrews 11:1 (Replace "nospam" with "net" for responses, please)

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Get yourself a decent newsreader.  Hint: anything that comes packaged with a web browser isn’t worthy of the name – Netscape’s offering is a poor excuse for a newsreader (but at least it isn’t anywhere near as broken as Upf*** Express). –Paul

Aww, don’t be mean, I use Outlook Express.  It crashes less than all my other Microsoft stuff — and without crashes, who would ever get off the computer? Maybe she just doesn’t understand that it can take a while for the post to show up depending on her news server (sometimes 1-2 hours). OH, and hey everybody did ya hear about the GROUP TRIPS TO THE DEAD SEA? Just in case somebody missed it….maybe they use Outlook Express too? Chris

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Best PS:  1%?  I’m not sure.  What is the rule of 9 someone referred to?

Rule of Nines is a quick estimate used for figuring body surface involved in burns…if all else fails the palm of your hand = 1% Head = 9% Front Trunk =18% Back = 18% Arms = 9% each Legs = 18% each Genitalia = 1% Chris

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Paul, Nope I use Outlook Express.   I send a message & it doesn’t post…at least not that I can see.    So I send it until I see that it posts.   I didn’t know it actually got to the NG more than that one time otherwise I wouldn’t have kept sending it. I’m very sorry to have sent multiple posts! Donna Donna, you keep sending the same posts over and over.  This is because you use Microsoft Upf*** Express which is broken in many, many ways. In this particular case, I believe it’s because you have the pointer over the outbox.  People sometimes do that if they consider amending a post but change their mind – they move the pointer over the outbox but don’t click.  Upf*** Express, being totally broken, decides (without telling you it’s doing so) that if your pointer is over the outbox you want to send the same post over and over again. I suggest you find a decent newsreader such as Free Agent as soon as possible and ditch that Microsoft crap.  Or at least learn to keep the pointer away from the outbox. –Paul

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Name: Linde Age:    50 (how did that happen?) First noticed I had PS: 12 Family Hx: 1 aunt Onset of PS: puberty Sites affected:  Elbows and tops of hands, and spots here and there Works for me: A little bit of this and a little bit of that, until I                        build up resistance, then on to some more stuff Worst PS: Guess……60% (stress related_ Best PS:  Now – 2%

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Name: Ted Age:    42 First Noticed I had PS:   36 Family Hx: Not I know of. Sites affected: Elbows, side and above of buttock, penis head, side of thigh, scaple and face. Works for me:  Oatmeal baths Worse PS:  40 percent due to stress and scare Best PS: Present  1-2 percent To reply directly me: Remove "NOSPAM" from my email address.

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Paul, Nope I use Outlook Express.

That’s what I said – Upf*** Express.  So called because it is (and I’m serious here) acknowledged to be the buggiest newsreader in use on the Internet and it’s totally f***ed up.  It’s broken in so many ways a list runs to many dozens of lines. I send a message & it doesn’t post…at least not that I can see.

Yet another problem with it. I’m very sorry to have sent multiple posts!

It’s not your fault.  Get yourself a decent newsreader.  Hint: anything that comes packaged with a web browser isn’t worthy of the name – Netscape’s offering is a poor excuse for a newsreader (but at least it isn’t anywhere near as broken as Upf*** Express). –Paul

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Name:Lorraine Age:    32 First noticed I had PS:18 Family Hx: Mom,4 siblings, 1 aunt. Onset of PS: Injury to skin on leg. Types of P: Pustular, plaque, and Psoriatic Arthritis.. Side Affects: Psoriatic exterior ulcer’s Works for me: almost nothing {but there’s always hope} Worst PS: 60% Best PS: 20%

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I’m new to this group, but I’ll join in … Name:    Helen Age:       27 First noticed I had PS:    Not sure – I started with bad Eczema as a baby Family Hx:    Grandmother Onset of PS:    Had it very bad on my hands during pre-teens – went through a ps-free period – started up again violently when I started work at 16 Types of P:    Mostly scalp psoriasis, with some on my hands, elbows and knees Side Affects:     Wrecks my nails and makes my hair fall out Works for me:   Not much.  I avoid all greasy and highly-scented skin and hair products, rotate the ones I *can* use, eat a healthy diet.  Other than that I grit my teeth and try to get on with my life (doesn’t always work, unfortunately). Best PS:    None at all – but that was a few years ago now <sigh I’ve only been checking in on this newsgroup for a few days, but I find it reassuring that not only am I not alone but also that many, if not most of you still have a great sense of humour.  My hair may fall out, but I’m determined not to lose my ability to laugh! I’ll keep checking in … thanks …. Helen XXXXX

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Name:  Diane Age:  53 First noticed I had PS:  49 Family History:  None that I know about Onset of PS:  Who knows? Sites affected:  Scalp, ears, spots on arms, legs, back, and trunk. Works for me:  Not much.  I think Temovate worked at first, then rebound effect.  I know ocean salt and sun helps. Worst PS:  Now-about 10%.  Don’t know why, but it’s definitely getting worse. Best PS:  1%?  I’m not sure.  What is the rule of 9 someone referred to?

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Helen WELCOME, please sit, post, laugh, stay a longggggg time…. great to have ya!!! peace and love Lorraine

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Get yourself a decent newsreader.  Hint: anything that comes packaged with a web browser isn’t worthy of the name – Netscape’s offering is a poor excuse for a newsreader (but at least it isn’t anywhere near as broken as Upf*** Express). Aww, don’t be mean, I use Outlook Express.  It crashes less than all my other Microsoft stuff

That’s not saying much, is it?  The software I use (none of it Microsoft, not even the OS) rarely crashes – once every 3 or 4 months, maybe. — and without crashes, who would ever get off the computer?

So Microsoft actually makes all their s/w crash-prone to prevent computer addiction and they’re doing everyone favours? Maybe she just doesn’t understand that it can take a while for the post to show up depending on her news server (sometimes 1-2 hours).

That’s possible, although I thought Upf*** Express, like most news posting agents, gave some indication when the post had been accepted by the server. Oh, and the delay between a post being accepted and actually appearing on the same server could be a lot longer then 1-2 hours if the server is really overloaded (depends on the server s/w used, but some server s/w dumps uploaded articles into a queue and processes the queue as it has time). OH, and hey everybody did ya hear about the GROUP TRIPS TO THE DEAD SEA? Just in case somebody missed it….maybe they use Outlook Express too?

If you used a decent newsreader you could killfile the dead sea posts and never see them again – Upf*** Express would be a poor excuse for a newsreader even if it weren’t so buggy.  Add in all the bugs too and it’s just a pile of steaming manure. –Paul

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Name: Carol Age: 42 (keeps comin’ up yearly) First noticed I had P: 28 Family History: 1 aunt Onset of P: 28 Sites affected: Elbows, tops of hands, knees and calves Works for me: Lots of B complex vitamins, topped with C, folic acid/B6/B12, cayenne herb and low stress Worst P: 70% (lots of stress helps!) Best P: 25% (had remarkable clearing starting  folic acid/b12…now stable, but not completely clear)

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Welcome to the group, Helen! Now keep on posting… Best regards,

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Oh, well, I have been luking here long enough and feel that by now I ought to give something back. So here goes: Name: Oded Degani Age:    60 First Noticed I had PS:   16 Family Hx: Father  - slightly, around the nose. Grandfather, Paternal grandfather, Brother                  (developed P in his 50’s) Sites affected:   Everywhere Works for me: Methotrexate, Fluocinonide (for scalp and face)-both current,                        Cyclosporine (100% clearance – stopped becuase of high b.p.), Worse PS:      80 percent. Hospitlized numerous times at a younger age. Best PS:         Present  0%-see above. Current 1-2%. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Name: Ted Age:    42 First Noticed I had PS:   36 Family Hx: Not I know of. Sites affected: Elbows, side and above of buttock, penis head, side of thigh, scaple and face. Works for me:  Oatmeal baths Worse PS:  40 percent due to stress and scare Best PS: Present  1-2 percent To reply directly me: Remove "NOSPAM" from my email address.

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Name: Donna Age:    31 First noticed I had PS: 18 Family Hx: Mom, 2 Uncles, 3 Cousins Onset of PS: Stress from home life with parents. Works for me: Exorex Worst PS: Guess……30% Best PS:  Now – 1-2% Donna (the other one ) )

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Name: Donna Age:    31

Donna, you keep sending the same posts over and over.  This is because you use Microsoft Upf*** Express which is broken in many, many ways. In this particular case, I believe it’s because you have the pointer over the outbox.  People sometimes do that if they consider amending a post but change their mind – they move the pointer over the outbox but don’t click.  Upf*** Express, being totally broken, decides (without telling you it’s doing so) that if your pointer is over the outbox you want to send the same post over and over again. I suggest you find a decent newsreader such as Free Agent as soon as possible and ditch that Microsoft crap.  Or at least learn to keep the pointer away from the outbox. –Paul

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