Question:

Melody Beattie.  I agree, it is truly that simple—-once you’re on the other side of it!  It was hard for me; I never even interrupted my mother, let alone talked back to her, and that’s a pretty harsh standard I’d superimposed upon myself!  It’s also the classic first indicator of an unhealthy system, usually enmeshed—everyone has to agree with and accept the opinions of the person in authority.  I got better around my 45th birthday!  :-)  Kathy F.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found the cure for codependcy in in Al Anon and personal therapy.  I became a big fan of Carolyn Beatty’s books.  You really need to learn to trust yourself and quit pleasning everyone.  All you really do is give a way pieces of your soul and soon you have nothing left to use to take care of yourself. KG CoDA, which is Codependents Anonymous, was the group that was most helpful to me; I’d done everything I could to facilitate all the relationships in my family of origin and my marriage and family, to my own near-destruction. Control is the undercurrent of trying to help and trying to get things right; self-neglect is the result.  Both are nasty, horribly destructive elements of codependence.  Therapy, CoDA, antidepressants, divorce, and lots of work helped me through a hideously difficult decade plus a few years. I’m happier now than I’ve ever been in my life, even with the problems that go along with being financially responsible for everything in my life, loneliness from living alone, having my kids and grandchildren living far away from me, and siblings and mother, also.  Pets, friends, my church, this group, and my work and contact with people every day help me make it. Thanks, Everybody!    Kathy F. Can you find a 12 Steps program such as Nar_Anon to help you?  I’ve been in and out of Al Anon (friends and family of alcoholics) for many years. My addiction is helping people, inappropriate caretaking, forcing my views and opinions on people who don’t want them.  I won’t say I never due it. My life is no longer chaos and my health problems make it hard to get in trouble with trying to help people.  The quality of my friends inproved. KG I decided to go on holiday and put off seeing the Doc against all advice. My Crack addiction stemmed from a coke addiction, I moved up the ladder because the coke wasn’t working anymore. I thought I had it under control, and I wasn’t doing crack so that meant it was ok. After 10 grams, beating my all time stupidity record with coke, and probably just cheating a heart attack. I now feel just as much of a wreck and just as confused as before I left with the added bonus of after the coke session my voices have come back in my head. They don’t upset me or bother me, it’s just chatter, but I’d pretty much got past that.

Response:

I found the cure for codependcy in in Al Anon and personal therapy.  I became a big fan of Carolyn Beatty’s books.  You really need to learn to trust yourself and quit pleasning everyone.  All you really do is give a way pieces of your soul and soon you have nothing left to use to take care of yourself. KG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CoDA, which is Codependents Anonymous, was the group that was most helpful to me; I’d done everything I could to facilitate all the relationships in my family of origin and my marriage and family, to my own near-destruction. Control is the undercurrent of trying to help and trying to get things right; self-neglect is the result.  Both are nasty, horribly destructive elements of codependence.  Therapy, CoDA, antidepressants, divorce, and lots of work helped me through a hideously difficult decade plus a few years. I’m happier now than I’ve ever been in my life, even with the problems that go along with being financially responsible for everything in my life, loneliness from living alone, having my kids and grandchildren living far away from me, and siblings and mother, also.  Pets, friends, my church, this group, and my work and contact with people every day help me make it. Thanks, Everybody!    Kathy F. Can you find a 12 Steps program such as Nar_Anon to help you?  I’ve been in and out of Al Anon (friends and family of alcoholics) for many years. My addiction is helping people, inappropriate caretaking, forcing my views and opinions on people who don’t want them.  I won’t say I never due it.  My life is no longer chaos and my health problems make it hard to get in trouble with trying to help people.  The quality of my friends inproved. KG I decided to go on holiday and put off seeing the Doc against all advice. My Crack addiction stemmed from a coke addiction, I moved up the ladder because the coke wasn’t working anymore. I thought I had it under control, and I wasn’t doing crack so that meant it was ok. After 10 grams, beating my all time stupidity record with coke, and probably just cheating a heart attack. I now feel just as much of a wreck and just as confused as before I left with the added bonus of after the coke session my voices have come back in my head. They don’t upset me or bother me, it’s just chatter, but I’d pretty much got past that.

Response:

Addiction’s a bitch.  Please, for your own sake, stay away from that shit. Gather in the forces now and deal with this before it takes control again. I used to be addicted to speed MANY years ago.  I know hard hard it is and how long it takes to get away from it.  I really hope you will not do this to yourself again. {{{{{{SR}}}}}}}

<snip Cheers Colleen, It’s the longest I’ve been clean for a while now, I’ve been in rehab etc but it never really worked for me. I suppose I had to give up when I wanted to and on my terms, I hated 12 stepping. My shrink was getting definitely earning his fee and getting annoyed with me in the process basically saying "I can’t see the woods for trees when you keep getting loaded", sometimes going in drunk or loaded for sessions. He didn’t see the funny side. It’s such a double edged sword when you drink or drug away problems thus creating more to drink and drug away and the loss of judgement and reasoning while mentally high just makes it so easy to justify getting even higher artificially. Thanks SR

Response:

Can you find a 12 Steps program such as Nar_Anon to help you?  I’ve been in and out of Al Anon (friends and family of alcoholics) for many years.  My addiction is helping people, inappropriate caretaking, forcing my views and opinions on people who don’t want them.  I won’t say I never due it.  My life is no longer chaos and my health problems make it hard to get in trouble with trying to help people.  The quality of my friends inproved. KG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided to go on holiday and put off seeing the Doc against all advice. My Crack addiction stemmed from a coke addiction, I moved up the ladder because the coke wasn’t working anymore. I thought I had it under control, and I wasn’t doing crack so that meant it was ok. After 10 grams, beating my all time stupidity record with coke, and probably just cheating a heart attack. I now feel just as much of a wreck and just as confused as before I left with the added bonus of after the coke session my voices have come back in my head. They don’t upset me or bother me, it’s just chatter, but I’d pretty much got past that.

Response:

CoDA, which is Codependents Anonymous, was the group that was most helpful to me; I’d done everything I could to facilitate all the relationships in my family of origin and my marriage and family, to my own near-destruction. Control is the undercurrent of trying to help and trying to get things right; self-neglect is the result.  Both are nasty, horribly destructive elements of codependence.  Therapy, CoDA, antidepressants, divorce, and lots of work helped me through a hideously difficult decade plus a few years. I’m happier now than I’ve ever been in my life, even with the problems that go along with being financially responsible for everything in my life, loneliness from living alone, having my kids and grandchildren living far away from me, and siblings and mother, also.  Pets, friends, my church, this group, and my work and contact with people every day help me make it. Thanks, Everybody!    Kathy F.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you find a 12 Steps program such as Nar_Anon to help you?  I’ve been in and out of Al Anon (friends and family of alcoholics) for many years.  My addiction is helping people, inappropriate caretaking, forcing my views and opinions on people who don’t want them.  I won’t say I never due it.  My life is no longer chaos and my health problems make it hard to get in trouble with trying to help people.  The quality of my friends inproved. KG I decided to go on holiday and put off seeing the Doc against all advice. My Crack addiction stemmed from a coke addiction, I moved up the ladder because the coke wasn’t working anymore. I thought I had it under control, and I wasn’t doing crack so that meant it was ok. After 10 grams, beating my all time stupidity record with coke, and probably just cheating a heart attack. I now feel just as much of a wreck and just as confused as before I left with the added bonus of after the coke session my voices have come back in my head. They don’t upset me or bother me, it’s just chatter, but I’d pretty much got past that.

Response:

Addiction’s a bitch.  Please, for your own sake, stay away from that shit. Gather in the forces now and deal with this before it takes control again. I used to be addicted to speed MANY years ago.  I know hard hard it is and how long it takes to get away from it.  I really hope you will not do this to yourself again. {{{{{{SR}}}}}}} c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I decided to go on holiday and put off seeing the Doc against all advice. I had a great time, felt loads better and clarity of though even returned after a couple of days! I probably drank a bit too much but, hey, I’m not perfect – not yet anyway Then got home on Friday and feeling good so went out with my friends I’d either become alienated from or alienated myself from over the last god knows how long and to try and build bridges. Successfully at least with one. Then after a few beers and a lapse of judgement (I’m clean from Crack for about 8 weeks now, and just getting myself out of debt etc) I decided to get loaded. Coke not crack, but still. My Crack addiction stemmed from a coke addiction, I moved up the ladder because the coke wasn’t working anymore. I thought I had it under control, and I wasn’t doing crack so that meant it was ok. After 10 grams, beating my all time stupidity record with coke, and probably just cheating a heart attack. I now feel just as much of a wreck and just as confused as before I left with the added bonus of after the coke session my voices have come back in my head. They don’t upset me or bother me, it’s just chatter, but I’d pretty much got past that. Aggghhhhhh I’m such a prat sometimes Love SR <Hoping that the lapse back to a mixed state will go by tomorrow, heh

Response:

I decided to go on holiday and put off seeing the Doc against all advice. I had a great time, felt loads better and clarity of though even returned after a couple of days! I probably drank a bit too much but, hey, I’m not perfect – not yet anyway Then got home on Friday and feeling good so went out with my friends I’d either become alienated from or alienated myself from over the last god knows how long and to try and build bridges. Successfully at least with one. Then after a few beers and a lapse of judgement (I’m clean from Crack for about 8 weeks now, and just getting myself out of debt etc) I decided to get loaded. Coke not crack, but still. My Crack addiction stemmed from a coke addiction, I moved up the ladder because the coke wasn’t working anymore. I thought I had it under control, and I wasn’t doing crack so that meant it was ok. After 10 grams, beating my all time stupidity record with coke, and probably just cheating a heart attack. I now feel just as much of a wreck and just as confused as before I left with the added bonus of after the coke session my voices have come back in my head. They don’t upset me or bother me, it’s just chatter, but I’d pretty much got past that. Aggghhhhhh I’m such a prat sometimes Love SR <Hoping that the lapse back to a mixed state will go by tomorrow, heh

Response:

Question:

   No – <Iminorities</i kill people.    Why should some guy in a rural Kalifornia county that has very-few murders or other shootings have to pay an ammo tax to make up for the daily acts of the feral minority underclass in a (very few) big cities in Kalifornia?

Maybe the white guys in rural California are more decent human beings than several who have come to notice recently in Colorado; they used bullets to kill their wives.  ’Course, they required only a couple to do the job, so a bullet tax would have had little deterrent effect on them. I will assume that the assertion that only minorities–and of those, only those living in big cities–is a misinformed, rather than a racist, statement. Gary Williams

Response:

Gary quoted me: … blacks in the U.S. commit homicide at EIGHT times the rate that European-Americans do and die of homicide at FIVE times the rate that we do.

and replied: If that is the case, why do you suppose it is so?

   Simple – the current 68.7% illegitimacy rate has a hell of a high percentage of black kids growing up fatherless from Day One, leading particularly to many slum black boys becoming feral as teens.  Throw in high rates of crack addiction among mothers – and a lot of them are effectively growing up motherless as well.  These are all the result of decisions by BLACK men and BLACK women. <BDissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I<A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com"ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A</b</i

Response:

   Simple – the current 68.7% illegitimacy rate has a hell of a high percentage of black kids growing up fatherless from Day One, … Throw in high rates of crack addiction among mothers …

What do you think has persuaded so many inner-city black people to make such choices? Gary Williams

Response:

I will assume that the assertion that only minorities–and of those, only those living in big cities–is a misinformed, rather than a racist, statement.

   It’s so damn disproportionate that the federal Justice Dept. – when Jackboot Janet ran it – reported that blacks in the U.S. commit homicide at EIGHT times the rate that European-Americans do and die of homicide at FIVE times the rate that we do.  Deal with that reality.    Homicide in America is so damn disproportionately minority that it’s also obvious in those "mainstream" dailies like the area Greensboro News & Record that run photos of everyone arrested for murder.  Homicide in America is so damn disproportionately slum that it’s obvious in every "mainstream" daily like the Greensboro News & Record that runs addresses of murder suspects and where the crime happened.  Deal with that reality. <BDissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I<A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com"ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A</b</i

Response:

… blacks in the U.S. commit homicide at EIGHT times the rate that European-Americans do and die of homicide at FIVE times the rate that we do.  

If that is the case, why do you suppose it is so? Gary Williams

Response:

Question:

dave, bob, and bennet, In matters of virology I tend to be an evolutionist rather than a creationist. I feel that viruses, like animal or plant species, tend to originate at various times, and most die out eventually. The ecosystem for a species of animal is the planet earth; the ecosystem for a virus is the body of its host species or related species it infects. It is possible, but to me highly unlikely, that there was a single origin of HIV, just as I think it is unlikely that there was a single "creation" of mankind. Gary www.minter-g.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary J. Minter writes: This is difficult to explain briefly, and I would be interested in everyone’s opinion about this. Based on my high school biology class (in which we learned basic theory of viruses and also about the "behavioral sink" study done on mice in which new viral diseases seemed to occur under conditions of overcrowding), a bit of my Duke genetics, and reading a couple thousand HIV/AIDS medical journal articles and abstracts—but primarily intuitively—my hypothesis is that all retroviruses, and likely almost all viruses, are "breakaway" portions of genetic material that have developed the ability to sheath themselves in a protein coat, and which either are encoded for in the host species’ DNA, or broke away at a point in time as messenger or transfer RNA during cellular processes and developed an "identity" and sense of "self", much as cancer cells become "selfish" and refuse to die through the normal self-limiting process of cell death after X number of replications.   One must separate the origin of virus from the origin of a specific, highly specialized retrovirus.  It is unlikely in the extreme that a retrovirus was the first virus to emerge. If HIV arose once, it can arise again. You are right in that the current plague of HIV-1 which is killing people is new. I just think there have been other outbreaks of HIV viruses throughout the history of the human species, some worse than others.   It sure can.  There was recent news that the Indians have discovered another SIV native to one of the subcontinent’s primates.  So far that one is not know to be pathogenic to humans.   We already have 2 that have crossed the species barrier into humans and produced disease.     Currently we have no idea why several of the prehumanoid lines just disappear in the fossil record.  Some similar organism may have been responsible for their demise back in the days before even written communication.   One could speculate about what would be happening today with HIV infection if it was 200 years ago before mass communication and information transfer.   What is the question?       Gertrude Stein’s last words No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing.    Alan Watts On Display in the UK     http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

Response:

dave, bob, and bennet, In matters of virology I tend to be an evolutionist rather than a creationist. I feel that viruses, like animal or plant species, tend to originate at various times, and most die out eventually. The ecosystem for a species of animal is the planet earth; the ecosystem for a virus is the body of its host species or related species it infects. It is possible, but to me highly unlikely, that there was a single origin of HIV, just as I think it is unlikely that there was a single "creation" of mankind.

Viruses can cross quite diverse species.  I.e., swine flu. So the evolution of HIV as a zoonoses makes sense. Carlton wrote a beautiful essay on this topic that maybe he’ll be kind enough to post (if he’s still reading the newsgroup). I don’t think the evidence is strong for a HERV-like evolution but is relatively strong for a cross-species transmission. However, this doesn’t mean there aren’t evolutionary forces at play! Clearly there are. Indeed, short of our ability to eradicate the virus, I suspect that eventually an evolutionary accommodation may be made between virus and host. I think this happens sometimes. By contrast, there is a smaller chance it could get worse. Look at flu viruses. (Originating from Hong Kong often due to the biological pool of viral play in the big chicken markets???) These seem to generate annual versions requiring new vaccines.                 George M. Carter

Response:

May I speculate some more? HIV is an inherent part of the human genome, along with numerous other retroviruses and viruses, and from time to time during the history of our species has arisen from the genome to become a transmissible entity. This likely happens more often under conditions of stress and overcrowding, when there is greater mixing of individuals’ genetic material though both sex and viral infections. Thus, both explanations could have some truth: HIV is an endogenous retrovirus most of the time, but sometimes becomes virulent and transmissible among individuals. I doubt there was a single "original sin" origin of all types of HIV; rather, immune viruses have broken out many times in the past, usually being isolated to small populations. This particular incarnation of immune virus, HIV-1, is an especially bad one, but even HIV-1 would have remained isolated but for the 20th century phenomena of African urbanization, mass international travel,blood transfusions, hypodermic needles, organ transplants, and other phenomena which aided spread of HIV-1. Even with these new and unnatural aids to spread, HIV-1 has not spread very much into the heterosexual community in the US or Europe. gary www.minter-g.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nick, thanks for your thorough and detailed response. Do you really think HIV-1 orginated as a zoonosis from chimps? You may be correct in re the mutaton of an endogenous retrovirus, but I believe the evidence is weak for that. Beatrice Hahn’s phylogenetic data do tend to point to a chimp origin, yet their field work isn’t exactly what one would call "robust." (However, the WAY they gathered their data was extremely conscientious and painstaking to avoid disrupting the dwindling populations of chimps in the wild.) Actually I think the best empirical indication that its isn’t a reoccuring endogenous virus is that there is no African based population that shows increased resistance to the virus.  As Gary speculated, if there had been previous occurances there would be resistant survivors and their descendants around.  To my knowledge no such population exists, so I would go with a relatively new zoonosis crossover.

Response:

Your point is well-taken, although I’m unsure just when HIV-1 and HIV-2 actually did originate. They could both have existed for millennia, perhaps a million+ years. We really do not know. The seemingly apparent unlikely "coincidence" problem of "simultaneous" evolution of HIV-1 and HIV-2 vanishes if  virus is coded for in the genome of the host species, or is a commonly-occurring "spawn" or breakaway part of the host species’ genetic material. Most mutations are deleterious or neutral, and I suspect most viruses which "arise" never become viable, surviving entities and thus are never noticed. If the virus does originate from the host’s genome, there would indeed be similarities, because the genome is virtually the same among all members of the human race (as compared with chimpanzees, our nearest relatives, which share about 97% of our genome.) Thanks for your feedback and your good points of argument. I still think those who blame the monkeys and chimps for HIV may have jumped the gun. We members of Homo sapiens are old enough, numerous enough, and sexually-active enough to have developed our own viruses. Gary www.minter-g.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dave, bob, and bennet, In matters of virology I tend to be an evolutionist rather than a creationist. Me too. I feel that viruses, like animal or plant species, tend to originate at various times, and most die out eventually. The ecosystem for a species of animal is the planet earth; the ecosystem for a virus is the body of its host species or related species it infects. Ahhh, but animal and plant species don’t ‘originate’ they evolve from something that existed before.   And the chances that they are a subtle change to something that existed prior are far greater than they were created ‘whole cloth’ from a far more different origin, i.e., human cells.  The second idea is more creation than evolution. It is possible, but to me highly unlikely, that there was a single origin of HIV, just as I think it is unlikely that there was a single "creation" of mankind. Wouldn’t it be far more likely that a virus changed subtly and jump to a similar species rather than a contemporous origin of two very similar viruses in two different species in the same basic location? Sure *an* HIV could appear at different times, but though they might have similar pathology such ’spontaneous generation’ would likely be very diverse in the details of actual structure.  It is the similarities that make zoonosis more likely in the currently discussed situation.  Not that a new virus couldn’t evolve with similar characteristics, its just I’d expect greater differences in core operations.

Response:

dave, bob, and bennet, In matters of virology I tend to be an evolutionist rather than a creationist.

Me too. I feel that viruses, like animal or plant species, tend to originate at various times, and most die out eventually. The ecosystem for a species of animal is the planet earth; the ecosystem for a virus is the body of its host species or related species it infects.

Ahhh, but animal and plant species don’t ‘originate’ they evolve from something that existed before.   And the chances that they are a subtle change to something that existed prior are far greater than they were created ‘whole cloth’ from a far more different origin, i.e., human cells.  The second idea is more creation than evolution. It is possible, but to me highly unlikely, that there was a single origin of HIV, just as I think it is unlikely that there was a single "creation" of mankind.

Wouldn’t it be far more likely that a virus changed subtly and jump to a similar species rather than a contemporous origin of two very similar viruses in two different species in the same basic location? Sure *an* HIV could appear at different times, but though they might have similar pathology such ’spontaneous generation’ would likely be very diverse in the details of actual structure.  It is the similarities that make zoonosis more likely in the currently discussed situation.  Not that a new virus couldn’t evolve with similar characteristics, its just I’d expect greater differences in core operations. — "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it."     – G. K. Chesterton

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gary J. Minter writes: This is difficult to explain briefly, and I would be interested in everyone’s opinion about this. Based on my high school biology class (in which we learned basic theory of viruses and also about the "behavioral sink" study done on mice in which new viral diseases seemed to occur under conditions of overcrowding), a bit of my Duke genetics, and reading a couple thousand HIV/AIDS medical journal articles and abstracts—but primarily intuitively—my hypothesis is that all retroviruses, and likely almost all viruses, are "breakaway" portions of genetic material that have developed the ability to sheath themselves in a protein coat, and which either are encoded for in the host species’ DNA, or broke away at a point in time as messenger or transfer RNA during cellular processes and developed an "identity" and sense of "self", much as cancer cells become "selfish" and refuse to die through the normal self-limiting process of cell death after X number of replications.

  One must separate the origin of virus from the origin of a specific, highly specialized retrovirus.  It is unlikely in the extreme that a retrovirus was the first virus to emerge. If HIV arose once, it can arise again. You are right in that the current plague of HIV-1 which is killing people is new. I just think there have been other outbreaks of HIV viruses throughout the history of the human species, some worse than others.

  It sure can.  There was recent news that the Indians have discovered another SIV native to one of the subcontinent’s primates.  So far that one is not know to be pathogenic to humans.   We already have 2 that have crossed the species barrier into humans and produced disease.     Currently we have no idea why several of the prehumanoid lines just disappear in the fossil record.  Some similar organism may have been responsible for their demise back in the days before even written communication.   One could speculate about what would be happening today with HIV infection if it was 200 years ago before mass communication and information transfer.   What is the question?       Gertrude Stein’s last words No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing.    Alan Watts On Display in the UK     http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, This is difficult to explain briefly, and I would be interested in everyone’s opinion about this. Based on my high school biology class (in which we learned basic theory of viruses and also about the "behavioral sink" study done on mice in which new viral diseases seemed to occur under conditions of overcrowding), a bit of my Duke genetics, and reading a couple thousand HIV/AIDS medical journal articles and abstracts—but primarily intuitively—my hypothesis is that all retroviruses, and likely almost all viruses, are "breakaway" portions of genetic material that have developed the ability to sheath themselves in a protein coat, and which either are encoded for in the host species’ DNA, or broke away at a point in time as messenger or transfer RNA during cellular processes and developed an "identity" and sense of "self", much as cancer cells become "selfish" and refuse to die through the normal self-limiting process of cell death after X number of replications. Viruses could not have evolved as independent organisms and then become parasitic–they could never reproduce without a host cell.

But why do you assume it is the host’s DNA?  Couldn’t the origin also have been infection with some sort of external pathogen, such as a bacteria, and it is its foreign genetic material that has broken off, mixed with some qualities of the host’s cells?  And that these newly spawned virii have moved on from species to species as their opportunity and ability as provided?  I think the idea that HIV must have orginated in humans is a bit too simple – though its ultimate orgins might trace to some event like you suggest, that event might have been 1,000,000 years ago in a lemur with a bad cold and things have just been proceeding since then. Its an interesting hypothesis, but I do think its a too contemporary based, and ignores that so many virii can infect broad ranges of species and could have origins that are millions of years in the past. I can’t think of a reason to assume any of them necessarily originated in the species they are found in now, in fact, I would consider finding one that did so an astounding bit of luck. — "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it."     – G. K. Chesterton

Response:

May I speculate some more? HIV is an inherent part of the human genome, along with numerous other retroviruses and viruses, and from time to time during the history of our species has arisen from the genome to become a transmissible entity.

  If you have a hypothesis, you should find a way to test it.  There is no evidence at all for HIV being an "inherent part of the human genome".  All the evidence points to it’s recent evolutionary appearance.     One could similarly argue that Aluminum Baseball Bats are an inherent part of the human system since they can be found in the hands of some people. What is the question?       Gertrude Stein’s last words No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing.    Alan Watts On Display in the UK     http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

Response:

Dave, This is difficult to explain briefly, and I would be interested in everyone’s opinion about this. Based on my high school biology class (in which we learned basic theory of viruses and also about the "behavioral sink" study done on mice in which new viral diseases seemed to occur under conditions of overcrowding), a bit of my Duke genetics, and reading a couple thousand HIV/AIDS medical journal articles and abstracts—but primarily intuitively—my hypothesis is that all retroviruses, and likely almost all viruses, are "breakaway" portions of genetic material that have developed the ability to sheath themselves in a protein coat, and which either are encoded for in the host species’ DNA, or broke away at a point in time as messenger or transfer RNA during cellular processes and developed an "identity" and sense of "self", much as cancer cells become "selfish" and refuse to die through the normal self-limiting process of cell death after X number of replications. Viruses could not have evolved as independent organisms and then become parasitic–they could never reproduce without a host cell. They had to originate from host organic material, the only question is, are viruses specifically encoded for in the host species genome and thus be a natural potential part of the host, or are they accidental or injured organic material which remained viable and became transmissible among individuals of the species and related species. Transposons are intracellular virus-like entities which cannot exist outside the cell; viruses have gone another step and gained a protective protein coat so they can travel throughout the body and between individuals. About ten years ago I wrote a brief narrative contending this to be the case with HIV and other retroviruses. While in the proviral stage they are part of the cellular DNA, while in the virion stage they are mobile and transmissible. Viruses are a mechanism of DNA mixing, recombination, and transfer, much as sperm is also a mobile vehicle for merging of genetic material with another individual of the same species. HIV has a peculiar affinity for certain cell types, perhaps because its genetic origins are from that portion of the genome which codes for immune function and governs the relationship between CD4+ and CD8+ cells or other immune system feedback mechanisms. Please keep in mind this is intuitive speculation. If HIV arose once, it can arise again. You are right in that the current plague of HIV-1 which is killing people is new. I just think there have been other outbreaks of HIV viruses throughout the history of the human species, some worse than others. Sincerely, Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – May I speculate some more? HIV is an inherent part of the human genome, along with numerous other retroviruses and viruses, and from time to time during the history of our species has arisen from the genome to become a transmissible entity.   If you have a hypothesis, you should find a way to test it.  There is no evidence at all for HIV being an "inherent part of the human genome".  All the evidence points to it’s recent evolutionary appearance.     One could similarly argue that Aluminum Baseball Bats are an inherent part of the human system since they can be found in the hands of some people. What is the question?       Gertrude Stein’s last words No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing.    Alan Watts On Display in the UK     http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

Response:

May I speculate some more? HIV is an inherent part of the human genome, along with numerous other retroviruses and viruses, and from time to time during the history of our species has arisen from the genome to become a transmissible entity.

Wouldn’t the now completed Human Genome project have found some indication of it then?  Would seem to be a simple database search for the various genes presences. I would think some one has looked since its completion. (anyone here up to the search?) This likely happens more often under conditions of stress and overcrowding, when there is greater mixing of individuals’ genetic material though both sex and viral infections. Thus, both explanations could have some truth: HIV is an endogenous retrovirus most of the time, but sometimes becomes virulent and transmissible among individuals.

But what indication is that that it is endogenous?  Especially with the closely related virii in related species in the same area as the original outbreak.   Why would it appear there rather than say Mexico City, or New Delhi if it were an endogenous virus expression?  I think that close geographic orgins of all the related retroviruses is a pretty good ’smoking gun’ for zoonosis myself. I doubt there was a single "original sin" origin of all types of HIV; rather, immune viruses have broken out many times in the past, usually being isolated to small populations. This particular incarnation of immune virus, HIV-1, is an especially bad one, but even HIV-1 would have remained isolated but for the 20th century phenomena of African urbanization, mass international travel,blood transfusions, hypodermic needles, organ transplants, and other phenomena which aided spread of HIV-1. Even with these new and unnatural aids to spread, HIV-1 has not spread very much into the heterosexual community in the US or Europe.

Which is more due to the expansive size and sexual habits of these heterosexual populations that decreases effective vectoring as well as a seemingly harder vectoring from female to male that is observed in African heterosexual populations. The epidemiology is changing – in the US gay men now make up less than 50% of new exposures.  As the pool of heterosexuals increases, you will see more heterosexual cases though its still not clear if it will ever break out of an endemic to an epidemic state. — "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it."     – G. K. Chesterton

Response:

Nick, thanks for your thorough and detailed response. Do you really think HIV-1 orginated as a zoonosis from chimps?

You may be correct in re the mutaton of an endogenous retrovirus, but I believe the evidence is weak for that. Beatrice Hahn’s phylogenetic data do tend to point to a chimp origin, yet their field work isn’t exactly what one would call "robust." (However, the WAY they gathered their data was extremely conscientious and painstaking to avoid disrupting the dwindling populations of chimps in the wild.)                 George M. Carter

Response:

Nick, thanks for your thorough and detailed response. Do you really think HIV-1 orginated as a zoonosis from chimps? You may be correct in re the mutaton of an endogenous retrovirus, but I believe the evidence is weak for that. Beatrice Hahn’s phylogenetic data do tend to point to a chimp origin, yet their field work isn’t exactly what one would call "robust." (However, the WAY they gathered their data was extremely conscientious and painstaking to avoid disrupting the dwindling populations of chimps in the wild.)

Actually I think the best empirical indication that its isn’t a reoccuring endogenous virus is that there is no African based population that shows increased resistance to the virus.  As Gary speculated, if there had been previous occurances there would be resistant survivors and their descendants around.  To my knowledge no such population exists, so I would go with a relatively new zoonosis crossover. — "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it."     – G. K. Chesterton

Response:

Nick, thanks for your thorough and detailed response. Do you really think HIV-1 orginated as a zoonosis from chimps? I’m not convinced of that. The fact is, the human species is old enough (3 million years+) to have had plenty of time for various retroviruses to have emerged from our own species genome—e.g., adult T-cell leukemia. I think HIV is an ancient endogenous retrovirus which sometimes becomes virulent at various points in human history, and the odds of it breaking out of the tribe of Homo sapiens from which it arises became far greater in the 20th century, with urbanization of Africa. Many people from small villages, where HIV is perhaps endogenous in the population, migrated to the big cities, and mixed their viruses with everyone else. The most virulent strains of HIV, which also replicate more rapidly, spread faster than the slower-replicating strains, much as HIV-1, which replicates faster, spread far more than HIV ever has. In conditions of isolated villages in old Africa (or anywhere else), a virulent outbreak might kill most people in the village, but in our modern 20th century, people had the ability to travel and spread the virus before they died within the average ten-year time from initial infection to AIDS/death. Biologically, this makes perfect sense. A sexually-transmitted virus with a ten-year time from infection to serious illness allows a decade of sexual maturity in each person to spread itself around the village before the host becomes too ill to be interested in sex. By that time the virus has become endemic in the population, and the resistant survive, the others die, but only after living long enough to spread the virus to others. Only the extreme promiscuity within segments of the gay male community in large urban areas, and the modern development of high-tech (as opposed to the natural ways of sex, and mother-to-child transmission) ways of spreading a virus such as blood transfusion, hemophilia blood treatments, contamination of IV and vaccine needles, organ transplants, etc, have allowed HIV-1 to spread far and wide in the 20th century. Crack addiction and poverty have also accelerated the spread of HIV-1, which is very virulent as immune viruses go, through street prostitution and trading sex for drugs. I personally witnessed this phenomenon from 1991-1995 as a member of "the sex police", the surveillance workers who do contact tracing of those with STDs such as syphilis, hepatitis B, and HIV. Gary www.minter-g.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anyone want to give this a shot? Posting subject is probably worth writing a book on – a paper at least.  I dunno if anyone really _knows_ why yet. The common conception that HIV-2 is less pathogenic is actually slightly confused.  HIV-1 has the well-known bell-shaped curve of progression rates.  Some progress soon, some progress late, most sit somewhere in the middle.  HIV-2 has some kind of bi-modal distribution.  Quite a few progress alarmingly quickly, but of those that don’t they then tend to progress quite slowly.  Overall this increases the average time to AIDS by a few years, but the average hides the odd-trend of having two "peaks" of progression. HIV-2 seems to replicate more slowly than HIV-1.  The molecular biology of the viruses (which amazingly has been shown to have some in vivo correlates) shows that for HIV-2, production of viral Gag protein is limiting for virus production.  It makes sense – halve the production of the major viral protein and you halve the amount of virus you make. However, the same isn’t true for HIV-1.  That implies that the RNA (most likely in my opinion) is limiting and that virus is being produced as fast as new genomes can be packaged.  HIV-1 tends to have higher viral loads than HIV-2, and as we all know (all together!) viral load correlates with rate of progression.  It’s also implicated in risk of transmission, so HIV-1 may be easier to transmit than HIV-2. I do recall reading somewhere that HIV-2 was easier to transmit, but this was a one-off paper I read and I remembering thinking it went against other stuff I’d been taught.  It might be worth checking that out properly. Another factor may be that HIV-2 isn’t able to package RNAs in trans – for example, if you infect a cell with two sorts of HIV-2 then it appears to be unlikely that you’ll get two different RNAs in the same virus particle, which may hinder mutation rates through recombination.  HIV-1 will happily pick up RNA’s from other similar viruses.  This is mostly new ideas and involves a fair bit of hand-waving.  I’m not entirely convinced by it, since while the Gag/RNA binding is definitely specific, I can’t see why two different Gag/RNA sets can’t mix together later on.  But I digress. also, why is HIV-2 less widespread worldwide than HIV-1? That may simply be transmission rates (see above).  It does appear that HIV-1 was the only strain to make it across into the West, and when it was spotted then further spread "out of Africa" was slowed.  HIV-2 events do occur but are much rarer.  Literally a handful in Australia for instance. However, the west is the minority.  Even in Africa where HIV-2 originated, the numbers have been eclipsed by HIV-1.  I think it used to be that HIV-2 was the most common strain in some areas – not any more.  I can’t believe that it’s purely down to population bottlenecks in that situation, I think it must be a transmission difference. any good studies showing which has been around longer? Hmmm, good question.  I really don’t know. has HIV-3 been well-characterized and described yet? Nope, unless you want to count the various HIV subtypes as different viruses.  HIV-2 and HIV-1 are clearly quite divergent – see the Hahn paper on SIVcpzUS for a decent phylogenetic tree (in Nature, 1998 I think).  I think you’d have to find an entirely different cause of AIDS, and there aren’t any holes to fill at the moment.  The "O" subtype caused a small stir before it was described since there were some people with AIDS who didn’t light up an HIV-1 test (or rather, they didn’t light up the env band on a Western Blot so were "indeterminate").  Current HIV tests cover HIV-1 M, N and O and HIV-2. anyone guess how many types of HIV will eventually be "discovered"? I doubt any more unless we get/find another cross-species transfer.  No way to predict that :-/ did all major types of HIV arise independently of each other? if so, where did they come from? HIV-2 is a very, very close relative to SIVmac and pretty close to SIVagm. Monkey viruses both, and they’re not pathogenic in their natural hosts. They do cause disease if put into the "wrong" monkey. HIV-1 is related to SIVcpz, more specifically the strain of SIVcpz found in the Central Chimp, or so it appears.  The link isn’t as good as that for HIV-2, and there is still room for a closer SIV, or an intermediate virus, or some kind of "starburst" evolution/recombination event which jumped the virus from SIVcpzUS to HIV-1.  This is part of the argument for the contaminated vaccine story – culture of virus may have allowed this to happen. My personal opinion is a recombination event between SIVcpzUS (or similar) and another as-yet-unknown virus.  It may be a currently unknown human pathogen, or harmless, or even an endogenous virus – who knows. I don’t know of all the relationships between HIV-1 group M (major) N (non-major I think) and O (other).  Group M contains all the funky clades ABCD etc etc etc IIRC.  They are all pretty much the same virus with slight differences – so slight that some question whether the clades aren’t just an artificial categorisation by human observers.  Certainly they’re "siblings" whereas HIV-2 is a "cousin", and SIVs are "aunts and uncles". Hope that helps. Cheers Bennett

Response:

anyone want to give this a shot? also, why is HIV-2 less widespread worldwide than HIV-1? any good studies showing which has been around longer? has HIV-3 been well-characterized and described yet? anyone guess how many types of HIV will eventually be "discovered"? did all major types of HIV arise independently of each other? if so, where did they come from?

Response:

anyone want to give this a shot?

Posting subject is probably worth writing a book on – a paper at least.  I dunno if anyone really _knows_ why yet. The common conception that HIV-2 is less pathogenic is actually slightly confused.  HIV-1 has the well-known bell-shaped curve of progression rates.  Some progress soon, some progress late, most sit somewhere in the middle.  HIV-2 has some kind of bi-modal distribution.  Quite a few progress alarmingly quickly, but of those that don’t they then tend to progress quite slowly.  Overall this increases the average time to AIDS by a few years, but the average hides the odd-trend of having two "peaks" of progression. HIV-2 seems to replicate more slowly than HIV-1.  The molecular biology of the viruses (which amazingly has been shown to have some in vivo correlates) shows that for HIV-2, production of viral Gag protein is limiting for virus production.  It makes sense – halve the production of the major viral protein and you halve the amount of virus you make. However, the same isn’t true for HIV-1.  That implies that the RNA (most likely in my opinion) is limiting and that virus is being produced as fast as new genomes can be packaged.  HIV-1 tends to have higher viral loads than HIV-2, and as we all know (all together!) viral load correlates with rate of progression.  It’s also implicated in risk of transmission, so HIV-1 may be easier to transmit than HIV-2. I do recall reading somewhere that HIV-2 was easier to transmit, but this was a one-off paper I read and I remembering thinking it went against other stuff I’d been taught.  It might be worth checking that out properly. Another factor may be that HIV-2 isn’t able to package RNAs in trans – for example, if you infect a cell with two sorts of HIV-2 then it appears to be unlikely that you’ll get two different RNAs in the same virus particle, which may hinder mutation rates through recombination.  HIV-1 will happily pick up RNA’s from other similar viruses.  This is mostly new ideas and involves a fair bit of hand-waving.  I’m not entirely convinced by it, since while the Gag/RNA binding is definitely specific, I can’t see why two different Gag/RNA sets can’t mix together later on.  But I digress. also, why is HIV-2 less widespread worldwide than HIV-1?

That may simply be transmission rates (see above).  It does appear that HIV-1 was the only strain to make it across into the West, and when it was spotted then further spread "out of Africa" was slowed.  HIV-2 events do occur but are much rarer.  Literally a handful in Australia for instance. However, the west is the minority.  Even in Africa where HIV-2 originated, the numbers have been eclipsed by HIV-1.  I think it used to be that HIV-2 was the most common strain in some areas – not any more.  I can’t believe that it’s purely down to population bottlenecks in that situation, I think it must be a transmission difference. any good studies showing which has been around longer?

Hmmm, good question.  I really don’t know. has HIV-3 been well-characterized and described yet?

Nope, unless you want to count the various HIV subtypes as different viruses.  HIV-2 and HIV-1 are clearly quite divergent – see the Hahn paper on SIVcpzUS for a decent phylogenetic tree (in Nature, 1998 I think).  I think you’d have to find an entirely different cause of AIDS, and there aren’t any holes to fill at the moment.  The "O" subtype caused a small stir before it was described since there were some people with AIDS who didn’t light up an HIV-1 test (or rather, they didn’t light up the env band on a Western Blot so were "indeterminate").  Current HIV tests cover HIV-1 M, N and O and HIV-2. anyone guess how many types of HIV will eventually be "discovered"?

I doubt any more unless we get/find another cross-species transfer.  No way to predict that :-/ did all major types of HIV arise independently of each other? if so, where did they come from?

HIV-2 is a very, very close relative to SIVmac and pretty close to SIVagm. Monkey viruses both, and they’re not pathogenic in their natural hosts. They do cause disease if put into the "wrong" monkey. HIV-1 is related to SIVcpz, more specifically the strain of SIVcpz found in the Central Chimp, or so it appears.  The link isn’t as good as that for HIV-2, and there is still room for a closer SIV, or an intermediate virus, or some kind of "starburst" evolution/recombination event which jumped the virus from SIVcpzUS to HIV-1.  This is part of the argument for the contaminated vaccine story – culture of virus may have allowed this to happen. My personal opinion is a recombination event between SIVcpzUS (or similar) and another as-yet-unknown virus.  It may be a currently unknown human pathogen, or harmless, or even an endogenous virus – who knows. I don’t know of all the relationships between HIV-1 group M (major) N (non-major I think) and O (other).  Group M contains all the funky clades ABCD etc etc etc IIRC.  They are all pretty much the same virus with slight differences – so slight that some question whether the clades aren’t just an artificial categorisation by human observers.  Certainly they’re "siblings" whereas HIV-2 is a "cousin", and SIVs are "aunts and uncles". Hope that helps. Cheers Bennett

Response:

Question:

"You have to WANT it" really doesn’t apply to me.

It doesn’t apply to me either. In all the times I have quit I have NEVER actually wanted to. The first time that lasted 7 years give or take a month, I didn’t want to quit at all. Boyfriend/husband basically forced the issue. He kept destroying them. He would grap full packs of smokes and crunch them right in front of me and then laugh like hell. Or he would stick one in his mouth and say "man I look so cool" and again laugh like hell. It annoyed me so bad that I would get so mad and that I was apparently so controlled by nicotene that I just quit. Another time another man talked me into this, but I only lasted 5 months cuz during that time I ousted the man and then met my current DH. Current DH smokes close to 2 packs a day and I just said screw it. The time I quit for 2.5 years was brought on by current husband announcing to his mommy dearest that he was quitting at on New Years. He had NOT even discussed this with me. I was so angry, as his mom does not really like me that much. Anyway she glared at me like you better be quitting too, so my dear wonderful perfect son will most certainly quit. Well he didn’t even last 14 hours before he was smoking again and begging me to smoke. Telling me he was sorry and should never have told her that. I said it was too late. I then told him that I was going to stay quit and for every month I was quit once I did start again he would have to be quit for at least that long before I would ever even consider it again. Then I got into birds and I told him for a month I was quit I was going to get me another bird. Luckily I realized early enough on that I didn’t want to go there or I would currently have 30 birds. YIKES! I spent the entire 30 months ANGRY as hell. I do mean angry. I was so pissed and yet I just kept going just to SHOW him I could and to never get me involved in his quit like that. We did try to quit together another time after that and it lasted 2 weeks and the very minute he gave in so did I. I wasn’t going to go through it again. This last time which lasted for 13 months, 3 weeks, 4 days without ONE single puff.  I went into it not really seriously wanting to. I knew I had to because of having to have teeth implants and typically the failure rate for dental implants is VERY high in smokers. My idea at the time was once the implants had set well I would start smoking again. My intent with this quit was for it to NOT be permanant. Then I found AS3 and hung around and started to feel more and more like I wanted it to be permanant. Lately though I have had my slips/relapses here and there and the struggle is on. So I too have NEVER really quit because I wanted to. Which probably explains the constant relapses on my part. Gwen

Response:

woops……that reply to Gwen was supposed to go email. Sorry everyone. Janet ~ OF A free thinker sure beats being a sheep any day! http://home.talkcity.com/FabioLn/windupd0ll/page4.html Expressions of my soul

Response:

I was so angry, as his mom does not really like me that much.

I think this is a Texas mom thing. My granny is from texas. She is like the granny from the Beverly Hillbillies  LOL, ‘cept she don’t make roadkill stew. Her sons can do no wrong, even when she was put in a nursing home and my dad sold everything – her clothes, her home, everthing in it and then abandoned her financially so the state would pick up the tab. He is perfect, and she has bailed him out of any and every predicament in his whole life. At least my dad has one person that cares about him, because none of the rest of us that really know him do. Secrets that will go to the grave kinda stuff so as not to burst her bubble. She would just stick up for him and blame us anyway, so what’’s the use?  LOL His life sentance is this: He once had one of the most beautiful women in the world as a wife. He was so insecure and such a drunk womanizer that he lost the best thing he ever had. He tried for years to get her back, to no avail. Now he has to wake up every morning with a woman that is also a drunk and has a face that looks like an anus. That is the only person besides his 93 year old mother who is now on her death bed that talks to him.  All I have to say is, I am so glad I am not God, and I bet, so is he. Janet ~ OF A free thinker sure beats being a sheep any day! http://home.talkcity.com/FabioLn/windupd0ll/page4.html Expressions of my soul

Response:

Paul wrote What I was trying to say was smoking isn’t thaaaaaaaaaaaaat big of a deal. As in not worth doing things that will result in your kid hating you, like going through his stuff.

Okay, gotcha. Yes, it is, but if a teenage smoker’s parents don’t allow him to smoke, or even worse are constantly on thier case about it, every other word that comes out their mouth will be ignored.

I definitely agree with that… but I wouldn’t provide an ashtray, because to me, that’s saying, "Okay, go ahead and smoke." While what I’m thinking is "I know you smoke, but I don’t have to tolerate it. You’re my child, not my friend, and right now I’ve gotta be the mom." I wouldn’t be in the kids’ face about it, that’s for sure… that accomplishes only the opposite of whatever you want to accomplish. But I wouldn’t want to even give the appearance that I condone it. Have fun! — Elizabeth zigATcluestickDOTorg On my 17th day!

Response:

Dear James, My teen smokes too. It has been very frustrating. He knows if I find cigarettes I am going to destroy them immediately. When I quit smoking, I kept smelling smoke in the house. Then I smelled it on him. He denied it profusely, but finally admitted it. I asked him if he wanted to quit, and he said yes, just like he said again today. I bought him the patches last time and they worked, but then he always seems to go back to smoking. His counseller was here today at our home and he mentioned he was a hypnotist too. I said, "Well hypnotize this child so he quits smoking!" The counseller said that the child has to want to quit or hypnosis won’t work. I asked my son again if he really wanted to quit, or was he just saying that to make me happy and he said he really wanted to quit. So, this time we may try hypnosis since it worked for my aunt and uncle. When I first found out about his smoking, I took a delicate approach to it and asked him if he was addicted and in need of help to get off of them. He said he was. I suggest you talk to him and see what he wants to do. Here are a bunch of links too. Pay particular attention to ASH – The Smoker’s Body. This link shows what will occur should your child choose a lifetime of smoking.  Never listen to people that say, "Oh forget it, you are barking up the wrong tree! They have to want to quit! They have to do it for them! There is nothing that you can do about it!" Well fine, perhaps there is some truth to that – for them. I am here to tell you that one year and 2 weeks ago, I quit smoking when I didn’t even want to so that theory of "You have to WANT it" really doesn’t apply to me.  I don’t know about you, but since this is my son we are talking about and I love this guy, I will do anything in my power to assist him in his quit. I will share these websites with him. I will talk to him about it constantly, and also to his smoking friends. I will NEVER ignore it, and I will be there for him because he matters. He deserves to know the truth. These links tell a lot of truth that you can learn from. Best of luck to you. My son WILL QUIT so help me God.  I will never stop harping about it until he does. http://www.swen.uwaterloo.ca/~as3/as3.html http://www.tobaccopedia.org/cgi-bin/search/seek.cgi?ID=963416517 http://cigarettesmokingkills.com/nicotine.html http://www.silkquit.org http://tobaccofreekids.org/ http://www.megalink.net/~dale/quitcigs.html http://as3.mylazycorner.com/ http://www.cognitivequitting.com http://www.betterhealth.com/sponsors/aol/cgi-bin/frame_kickbutt.html http://www.tobaccopedia.org/ http://www.quitnet.com/qn_main.jtml http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/mycigarette.htm http://www.made2smile.com/heart/miracles/miracles.htm http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets.html http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hppb/cessation/health_facts/addictions.html http://www.tobacco.org/Misc/lossesplain.html http://thriveonline.oxygen.com/medical/library/article/002032.html http://www.sk.lung.ca/smoking/index.html http://www.sk.lung.ca/smoking/d1.html http://whyquit.com/whyquit/ http://www.stop-tabac.ch/en/welcome.html http://glenwood.blogspot.com http://qjc.cjb.net/quit.html http://www.bluethunder.org/quitterhome.html http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/6100/index.html http://www.swen.uwaterloo.ca/~as3/as3.html http://www.tobaccopedia.org/cgi-bin/search/seek.cgi?ID=963416517 http://cigarettesmokingkills.com/nicotine.html http://www.silkquit.org http://tobaccofreekids.org/ http://www.megalink.net/~dale/quitcigs.html http://as3.mylazycorner.com/ http://www.cognitivequitting.com http://www.betterhealth.com/sponsors/aol/cgi-bin/frame_kickbutt.html http://www.tobaccopedia.org/ http://www.quitnet.com/qn_main.jtml http://www.quitsmokingsupport.com/mycigarette.htm http://www.made2smile.com/heart/miracles/miracles.htm http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets.html http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hppb/cessation/health_facts/addictions.html http://www.tobacco.org/Misc/lossesplain.html http://thriveonline.oxygen.com/medical/library/article/002032.html http://www.sk.lung.ca/smoking/index.html http://www.sk.lung.ca/smoking/d1.html http://whyquit.com/whyquit/ http://www.stop-tabac.ch/en/welcome.html http://glenwood.blogspot.com http://qjc.cjb.net/quit.html http://www.bluethunder.org/quitterhome.html http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/6100/index.html Janet ~ OF A free thinker sure beats being a sheep any day! http://home.talkcity.com/FabioLn/windupd0ll/page4.html Expressions of my soul

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure if this is the correct group to send this to but I thought that I’d give it a try (if this isn’t pls let me know). My teenager came to us , about a year and half ago,and told us that he was smoking. This really pissed me off because he informed us that he had been smoking for a year, he was 15 at the time. He agreed to quit smoking and we helped as much as we could. Now just about 2 years later I think that he has started again. This maybe due to a new girlfriend or whatever but I’ve sound cigarettes in his car on two occasions. I asked him about the 1st time I found them and he said that he drives on of his managers home after work andand she smokes but is not allowed to smoke in the house (she lives with her grandma I was told). So, she leaves the smokes in his car. Now, the reason I went through his car is that he smelled like a smoke stack when he came home from work. He usually doesn’t so I asked him about and he didn’t answer (he went immmediatley to the bathroom after he got home, this is common though). So, I was pissed and went through his car and found the smokes and lighter etc. I asked him about it and he gave me the story of his manager etc. Well, yesterday his younger brother said that he came home earlier in the day and smelled like smoke. While he was sleeping in I went into his car (we all have keys for each others vehicles) and found that smokes and the lighter and ashes on the floor under the driver’s seat. I’m wrestling with the fact of what I should do now, since he always plays the innoccent type and explains that they are NOT his smokes and that he is not smoking. It looks to me that he is smoking again and what really kills me is that he lies about it. I’ve placed the smokes back into his car. I’m not sure how I should approach this sicn I haven’t caught him in the act. His mother states that I should never go thru his car or his room ( I disagree since he is living in my house and driving a car that I paid for, but I’m sure we can get into another discussion about that) and leans toward beleiving my son. She is afraid of tarnishing her relationship with him I suppose. I’ do feel a little bad about going into his car, but, I’m suspicious. Any advice regarding what I should do? Thx!!

Maybe others will have a solution for you, all I can tell you is that nicotine is very powerful stuff. Education might help but most teenagers are invincible anyway. You might consider having him read this group and/or check out a few websites: http://whyquit.com/whyquit/ http://www.howstuffworks.com/nicotine.htm There are plenty of others as well. It will be much easier for him to quit now but I was told the same thing when I was a teen and it didn’t help me. From what you said above it sounds like he is smoking. Maybe he’s not and he smells that way from being in a car with a smoker, but I doubt it. I wish I knew what to tell you. All I know is that if he continues to smoke he will regret it. Good Luck, Spoon Smoke Free for One week, three days, 13 hours, 22 minutes and 16 seconds. 316 cigarettes not smoked, saving $47.51.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, Paul, You can write some very thought-provoking stuff! Really, smoking isn’t all that big of a deal. Sure, it’s bad for his health, but that’s about it. I thought this way when I was 15 and even 25…. since then, though, I’ve lost too many people to smoking related diseases and I’ve lost enough of my own good health though to ever again think that it’s not all that big of a deal. Gasping for air is a very big deal. Chest pain is a very big deal. Ever smoking that first cigarette was a very big deal… it was undoubtedly the worst choice I’ve ever made in my life, and believe me, I’ve made some real screamers.

I didn’t quite mean it like that. Sometimes things can  be taken a different way if pronounced differently, kind of hard to show in plain text. What I was trying to say was smoking isn’t thaaaaaaaaaaaaat big of a deal. As in not worth doing things that will result in your kid hating you, like going through his stuff. There probably are things that are worth doing this, like if you really think he has a gun or something. So is eating at McDonalds, There’s no doubt that a steady diet of McDonalds is not healthy for any part of the organism. But, to equate even a daily diet of fast food to smoking is using a false analogy. There are many factors in smoking that make it worse than any diet… so many that any analogy just dissolves.

I was more talking about how he is probably thinking. I’m only 25, and I can still remember what it’s like to be a teenager.  Smoking is one of the worst things you could possibly do to your body, I’m not denying that, but there are worse things a teenager can do. just buy an ashtray at let him smoke in the back yard. Acknowledging that your kid smokes is a different thing from supporting and condoning it.

Yes, it is, but if a teenage smoker’s parents don’t allow him to smoke, or even worse are constantly on thier case about it, every other word that comes out their mouth will be ignored. Would you rather have a son that smokes, or a son who smokes and doesn’t talk to you? Well said!!!!  I laughed when I got this far, because this is so true! And terrific that you’ve got a week quit!!!! Congratulations!!!!

Thanks. One week, 11 hours, 31 minutes and 34 seconds. 149 cigarettes not smoked, saving $26.18. Life saved: 12 hours, 25 minutes.

Response:

I’m not sure if this is the correct group to send this to but I thought that I’d give it a try (if this isn’t pls let me know). My teenager came to us , about a year and half ago,and told us that he was smoking. This really pissed me off because he informed us that he had been smoking for a year, he was 15 at the time. He agreed to quit smoking and we helped as much as we could. Now just about 2 years later I think that he has started again. This maybe due to a new girlfriend or whatever but I’ve sound cigarettes in his car on two occasions. I asked him about the 1st time I found them and he said that he drives on of his managers home after work andand she smokes but is not allowed to smoke in the house (she lives with her grandma I was told). So, she leaves the smokes in his car. Now, the reason I went through his car is that he smelled like a smoke stack when he came home from work. He usually doesn’t so I asked him about and he didn’t answer (he went immmediatley to the bathroom after he got home, this is common though). So, I was pissed and went through his car and found the smokes and lighter etc. I asked him about it and he gave me the story of his manager etc. Well, yesterday his younger brother said that he came home earlier in the day and smelled like smoke. While he was sleeping in I went into his car (we all have keys for each others vehicles) and found that smokes and the lighter and ashes on the floor under the driver’s seat. I’m wrestling with the fact of what I should do now, since he always plays the innoccent type and explains that they are NOT his smokes and that he is not smoking. It looks to me that he is smoking again and what really kills me is that he lies about it. I’ve placed the smokes back into his car. I’m not sure how I should approach this sicn I haven’t caught him in the act. His mother states that I should never go thru his car or his room ( I disagree since he is living in my house and driving a car that I paid for, but I’m sure we can get into another discussion about that) and leans toward beleiving my son. She is afraid of tarnishing her relationship with him I suppose. I’ do feel a little bad about going into his car, but, I’m suspicious. Any advice regarding what I should do? Thx!!

Response:

my advice is to leave it alone. if & when he is ready, really ready to quit, he will & won’t start again. this may be one of those issues that you just don’t have control over.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure if this is the correct group to send this to but I thought that I’d give it a try (if this isn’t pls let me know). My teenager came to us , about a year and half ago,and told us that he was smoking. This really pissed me off because he informed us that he had been smoking for a year, he was 15 at the time. He agreed to quit smoking and we helped as much as we could. Now just about 2 years later I think that he has started again. This maybe due to a new girlfriend or whatever but I’ve sound cigarettes in his car on two occasions. I asked him about the 1st time I found them and he said that he drives on of his managers home after work andand she smokes but is not allowed to smoke in the house (she lives with her grandma I was told). So, she leaves the smokes in his car. Now, the reason I went through his car is that he smelled like a smoke stack when he came home from work. He usually doesn’t so I asked him about and he didn’t answer (he went immmediatley to the bathroom after he got home, this is common though). So, I was pissed and went through his car and found the smokes and lighter etc. I asked him about it and he gave me the story of his manager etc. Well, yesterday his younger brother said that he came home earlier in the day and smelled like smoke. While he was sleeping in I went into his car (we all have keys for each others vehicles) and found that smokes and the lighter and ashes on the floor under the driver’s seat. I’m wrestling with the fact of what I should do now, since he always plays the innoccent type and explains that they are NOT his smokes and that he is not smoking. It looks to me that he is smoking again and what really kills me is that he lies about it. I’ve placed the smokes back into his car. I’m not sure how I should approach this sicn I haven’t caught him in the act. His mother states that I should never go thru his car or his room ( I disagree since he is living in my house and driving a car that I paid for, but I’m sure we can get into another discussion about that) and leans toward beleiving my son. She is afraid of tarnishing her relationship with him I suppose. I’ do feel a little bad about going into his car, but, I’m suspicious. Any advice regarding what I should do? Thx!!

Response:

Hi Jim, from the Mother of a teenager that smokes, there’s nothing you can do, nobody will quit because you tell them to. In fact it really will have the opposite effect, remember when you were a teen? Did you really take any notice of your fuddy duddy parents. He’ll quit when he’s ready but the more you nag the more he’ll rebel. hugs padders plodding on (

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We in our trying to make the situation for our family the best we can often do thing that we know are not our doing, fault or responsibility.  We cover for the other person – your husband, my wife.  They weasel and finagle their way out of their responsibilities and we end up with them.  Which makes use feel used, overworked under appreciated, dumb, stupid and on and on.  Then they act like well see how well I’m dealing with all "your" problems.  Which starts the circle over again.  And we are stuck in the middle wondering what the heck is wrong with us.  I don’t know if you’ve ever read the book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie.  It’s a brutal book to read because you can’t believe that in some was your as much to blame as the other party. But after the denial you start looking and then you start seeing how you’ve been used and in turn ending up using the other person.  You start seeing solutions.  Because you  can finally start seeing the problems. Try it and let me know. The books only 250 pages. Marc Hi Marc, It’s good to see you back, BTW. No you don’t sound preachy at all.  I’m not sure how to respond to what you wrote other than I’m thinking on it all. Thanks, Cindy

You owe it to yourself Cindy.  My best fiend and his wife are both co-dependant.  I haven’t been able to see them since last December. Ex drug/alchocolic’s and he just switched over to gambling.   She is on SS disability because of a crack addiction.  I love-em but got to leave them alone.   They just have to get their shit together for everybody concerned.  Read the book maybe yes/maybe no.

Response:

Hi Marc, It’s good to see you back, BTW.   No you don’t sound preachy at all.  I’m not sure how to respond to what you wrote other than I’m thinking on it all. Thanks, Cindy

Response:

We in our trying to make the situation for our family the best we can often do thing that we know are not our doing, fault or responsibility.  We cover for the other person – your husband, my wife.  They weasel and finagle their way out of their responsibilities and we end up with them.  Which makes use feel used, overworked under appreciated, dumb, stupid and on and on.  Then they act like well see how well I’m dealing with all "your" problems.  Which starts the circle over again.  And we are stuck in the middle wondering what the heck is wrong with us.  I don’t know if you’ve ever read the book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie.  It’s a brutal book to read because you can’t believe that in some was your as much to blame as the other party. But after the denial you start looking and then you start seeing how you’ve been used and in turn ending up using the other person.  You start seeing solutions.  Because you  can finally start seeing the problems. Try it and let me know. The books only 250 pages. Marc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Marc, It’s good to see you back, BTW. No you don’t sound preachy at all.  I’m not sure how to respond to what you wrote other than I’m thinking on it all. Thanks, Cindy

Response:

OK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thank you Nicky, I appreciate what you said.  You don’t know me.  If you did you would understand I am really what i wrote here.

Response:

thank you Nicky, I appreciate what you said.  You don’t know me.  If you did you would understand I am really what i wrote here.

Response:

Hi, Cindy.  Those feelings stay until you decide to take control of the things that you are involved with.  As  long as someone else controls them you will feel helpless, desperate, useless.  Taking control also means that when you mess up you get up and start all over again.  Messing things up are road signs of things and ways of doing things that in this particular instance don’t work.  With your husband being the way he is – it seems passive resistance  - is his forte’.  He will always leave you to make the decision and then slam you for them not working the way he wants them to. Dump them in his lap and leave them there.  It’s tough because the consequences are almost unimaginable but after he sees that you won’t do them he’ll start. Hope this isn’t preachy.  And advice is mostly useless but I know what your going through. Marc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would tell you how desperate I’m feeling.  How hopeless I feel about everything.  How futile everything feels right now.  How I can’t do anything right.  I’ll never succeed.  What a worthless piece of shit that I am. How I’m falling apart and desperately want to be held.  How fat, ugly both inside and outside I am.  How I have good intentions that go to hell before I even think them.  How needy I am.  How I crave attention, affection, love and approval. How much I loathe those desires.  How inadequate I’m feeling.  What an outcast I am everywhere I turn.  How disgusting I am. I’m tired of my typical self so I’m not.  (yeh, right)

Response:

I would tell you how desperate I’m feeling.  How hopeless I feel about everything.  How futile everything feels right now.  How I can’t do anything right.

I don’t believe this. I’ll never succeed.

You will succeed, you’ve had it tough, but you’re going to do it. What a worthless piece of shit that I am.

Not. How I’m falling apart and desperately want to be held.

(((((((((((((Cindy))))))))))))) It’s not the same, I know. How fat, ugly both inside and outside I am.

I know for sure you’re not like that inside, you’re beautiful on the inside (as you have proved to all of us!). As for the outside, I doubt if you are as bad as you think. I feel the same about myself a lot of the time, but knowing how skewed our perception can be at times, I never know whether I should believe it. In your case, I don’t believe a word :-p How I have good intentions that go to hell before I even think them.

Like all of us <sigh How needy I am.  How I crave attention, affection, love and approval.

Me too. It feels bad to need. I don’t think it is though. ((((((((Cindy)))))))) How much I loathe those desires.

I’m sorry How inadequate I’m feeling.

Hmmm, depression…… What an outcast I am everywhere I turn.

Not here! But I understand. I feel that way too. How disgusting I am.

Now that ain’t true! Didn’t you see? I have a crush on you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m tired of my typical self so I’m not.  (yeh, right)

Response:

I would tell you how desperate I’m feeling.  How hopeless I feel about everything.  How futile everything feels right now.  How I can’t do anything right.  I’ll never succeed.  What a worthless piece of shit that I am.  How I’m falling apart and desperately want to be held.  How fat, ugly both inside and outside I am.  How I have good intentions that go to hell before I even think them.  How needy I am.  How I crave attention, affection, love and approval. How much I loathe those desires.  How inadequate I’m feeling.  What an outcast I am everywhere I turn.  How disgusting I am.   I’m tired of my typical self so I’m not.  (yeh, right)

Response:

Question:

,,it’s alright mary,,it’s meant "tongue in cheek",,laughs,,, ,,but your points are valid,,, Doc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 95%of the time they will use one of two "break up" techniques: She will totally ignore the guy (not returning phone calls, etc.) and hope he just forgets about her. This is especially true if the woman has borrowed money or personal items and realizes that if she breaks it off, she still has to deal with him personally. She will purposely become such an unbearable bitch that she hopes that the guy breaks the whole thing off himself.   The other 5%?  She will exaggerate every small personal flaw in the man and use those as the excuses as to why she has to be the one to break up with him. Sometimes this technique is used when the first two fail. Guys do this, too!!!! The worst thing a man can do is confide personal details to a woman.  If a man tells a woman something stupid about himself, like an unpaid parking ticket from a few years ago, he has a very good chance of ruining her preconceived notion that "this is the perfect guy."  Talk about something stupid like your goals in life or how much money you earn. This also goes both ways… I see a man’s (or ANYONE’S) flaws as human, and unless they are really serious criminal acts or character-flaws (like drug addiction), i find these imperfections to be charming and a part of who this person is…. i only feel closer to the person who confides such things in me, and with whom i can confide my "secrets" as well… Anyone who appears "perfect" is someone who i would avoid….

Response:

Even though women think on an emotional basis, they are very good at messing with guys’ brains.  Have you ever heard of a woman killing herself over a man?

hmmmmm ….  there’s gotta be one … Cleopatra? "Hearing that Octavian intended to exhibit her in his triumph at Rome, Cleopatra killed herself, probably by poison, or, according to an old tradition, by the bite of an asp" – Encarta98 not quite what you meant, though … ? Women are natural psychologists and know every button to press to ruin a man’s self esteem, ego, career and wallet, then send him to jail.

too true, imle, but then the man is too stupid and literal to avoid it in time.  the woman cannot really be ‘blamed’ per se for competing in the best way she can. evidently, a lot of this weirdness is ‘explainable’ via sociobiology, so i have heard. personally, i think the ancient culture of the harem has had a large influence in selecting out various female behaviors. teen girls even now seem preprogrammed to act as though they are living in a harem, eternally preening for the nightly song+dance display to the sultan, in competition with all the other harem girls. likewise, males are still preprogrammed for war etc. it would be amusing if it werent so needlessly dysfunctional … robots will be robots, alas …

Response:

Women think on an emotional basis rather than a logical basis; that is why they are bad decision makers and rarely are seen making multimillion dollar decisions in the corporate structure. They are insanely jealous and suspicious of all men (as they should be).  However, if a woman is truly in love, she is extremely loyal to her mate. "Your boyfriend beats the living shit from you constantly, hasn’t fed your kids for weeks and spends all your money on his crack addiction! Why don’t you dump him?" "Because I love him so much," is their standard excuse. Is she afraid that she’ll find someone worse? What a fucking joke! Even though women think on an emotional basis, they are very good at messing with guys’ brains.  Have you ever heard of a woman killing herself over a man?  Women are natural psychologists and know every button to press to ruin a man’s self esteem, ego, career and wallet, then send him to jail. Even after a woman sees a man for a few times and develops a loathing for him, she is still concerned about hurting the poor sap’s feelings. 95%of the time they will use one of two "break up" techniques: She will totally ignore the guy (not returning phone calls, etc.) and hope he just forgets about her. This is especially true if the woman has borrowed money or personal items and realizes that if she breaks it off, she still has to deal with him personally. She will purposely become such an unbearable bitch that she hopes that the guy breaks the whole thing off himself.   The other 5%?  She will exaggerate every small personal flaw in the man and use those as the excuses as to why she has to be the one to break up with him. Sometimes this technique is used when the first two fail. The worst thing a man can do is confide personal details to a woman.  If a man tells a woman something stupid about himself, like an unpaid parking ticket from a few years ago, he has a very good chance of ruining her preconceived notion that "this is the perfect guy."  Talk about something stupid like your goals in life or how much money you earn. Forget giving women directions! Even if they have lived in the same area for 20 years, a simple direction like, "Go west on Pacific Coast Highway until you reach the ocean," is meaningless. "Is that a right or a left?" "It depends on which way you’re coming from!  JUST FOLLOW THE SUNSET!" Foreign women (non-American) are increasingly starting to appeal to American Men. Everyone (male and female) in America grows up learning to be self reliant and independent.  That is why most American women fail to realize that the final decision on anything should be left up to the man (the logically thinking gender).   Foreign women, for the most part, grow up in a strong family environment and have always been dependent on an external means of support.  They are much more compassionate, reliable, truthful and honest.  They are not used to making big decisions and rarely want to try.   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of the South American Countries.   Until Scientists perfect the invention of the artificial women, it is important that both genders understand the female persuasion.  A lot of men don’t know why women act the way they do –and, a lot of women don’t have a clue as to why they act they way they do!  Until now!  Please share this information with others.  We will become one step closer to World Peace! Doc

Response:

95%of the time they will use one of two "break up" techniques: She will totally ignore the guy (not returning phone calls, etc.) and hope he just forgets about her. This is especially true if the woman has borrowed money or personal items and realizes that if she breaks it off, she still has to deal with him personally. She will purposely become such an unbearable bitch that she hopes that the guy breaks the whole thing off himself.   The other 5%?  She will exaggerate every small personal flaw in the man and use those as the excuses as to why she has to be the one to break up with him. Sometimes this technique is used when the first two fail.

Guys do this, too!!!!   The worst thing a man can do is confide personal details to a woman.  If a man tells a woman something stupid about himself, like an unpaid parking ticket from a few years ago, he has a very good chance of ruining her preconceived notion that "this is the perfect guy."  Talk about something stupid like your goals in life or how much money you earn.

This also goes both ways… I see a man’s (or ANYONE’S) flaws as human, and unless they are really serious criminal acts or character-flaws (like drug addiction), i find these imperfections to be charming and a part of who this person is…. i only feel closer to the person who confides such things in me, and with whom i can confide my "secrets" as well… Anyone who appears "perfect" is someone who i would avoid….

Response:

Question:

In article <94274c$gvl…@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com

,

  "B and B" <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Squiggles" <squig…@sympatico.ca wrote in message news:3A5E0F50.9D47054D@sympatico.ca… doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote: I really don’t understand the hostility, Squiggles.  First, you

attack

me, call me a creep, and demand I be ejected from this group.

When I

respond with evidence showing that I am a true lover of women,

you

become angrier.  What is with you, anyway? Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women? ,,she’s just a bitch sub,,she’s ageing and her looks are fading, probably also putting on weight now too,, she’s jealous that

superior

males like us can take our pick of women and pass over bitches

like

her,,laughs,,, Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ That’s right. I’m a hag, and I am already taken.  My looks aren’t fading because I never had any, and I am not putting on weight because I was born obese.  As for being jealous that I was passed over, there was nobody who would pass over me because I was at the bottom of the list.  OK? Now go hunt your prize, and **** off! Squiggles LOL!!! Damn, Squiggles.  Wanna borrow my hedgeclippers so you can castrate

them?

;;;;laughs;;;;; ahem…. oh wait;;;; what balls? ;;;rolls eyes;;;; Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <93jqa4$h2…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

Women think on an emotional basis rather than a logical basis; that is why they are bad decision makers and rarely are seen making

multimillion

dollar decisions in the corporate structure. They are insanely jealous and suspicious of all men (as they should

be).

 However, if a woman is truly in love, she is extremely loyal to her mate. "Your boyfriend beats the living shit from you constantly, hasn’t fed your kids for weeks and spends all your money on his crack addiction! Why don’t you dump him?" "Because I love him so much," is their standard excuse. Is she afraid that she’ll find someone worse? What a fucking joke! Even though women think on an emotional basis, they are very good at messing with guys’ brains.  Have you ever heard of a woman killing herself over a man?  Women are natural psychologists and know every button to press to ruin a man’s self esteem, ego, career and wallet, then send him to jail. Even after a woman sees a man for a few times and develops a loathing for him, she is still concerned about hurting the poor sap’s feelings. 95%of the time they will use one of two "break up" techniques: She will totally ignore the guy (not returning phone calls, etc.) and hope he just forgets about her. This is especially true if the woman

has

borrowed money or personal items and realizes that if she breaks it

off,

she still has to deal with him personally. She will purposely become such an unbearable bitch that she hopes that the guy breaks the whole thing off himself.   The other 5%?  She will exaggerate every small personal flaw in the man and use those as the excuses as to why she

has

to be the one to break up with him. Sometimes this technique is used when the first two fail. The worst thing a man can do is confide personal details to a woman.

If

a man tells a woman something stupid about himself, like an unpaid parking ticket from a few years ago, he has a very good chance of ruining her preconceived notion that "this is the perfect guy."  Talk about something stupid like your goals in life or how much money you earn. Forget giving women directions! Even if they have lived in the same

area

for 20 years, a simple direction like, "Go west on Pacific Coast

Highway

until you reach the ocean," is meaningless. "Is that a right or a left?" "It depends on which way you’re coming from!  JUST FOLLOW THE SUNSET!" Foreign women (non-American) are increasingly starting to appeal to American Men. Everyone (male and female) in America grows up learning

to

be self reliant and independent.  That is why most American women fail to realize that the final decision on anything should be left up to

the

man (the logically thinking gender).   Foreign women, for the most

part,

grow up in a strong family environment and have always been dependent

on

an external means of support.  They are much more compassionate, reliable, truthful and honest.  They are not used to making big decisions and rarely want to try.   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of

the

South American Countries.   Until Scientists perfect the invention of the artificial women, it

is

important that both genders understand the female persuasion.  A lot

of

men don’t know why women act the way they do –and, a lot of women

don’t

have a clue as to why they act they way they do!  Until now!  Please share this information with others.  We will become one step closer to World Peace! Doc

;;;;; ahm sorry fokes;;;; ah was a lil longwinded in thaht thar messidge;;;;; whaht ah rahlly ment tuh say is;;;;;  laughs;;;;;   ah rayed this wun book wunst;;;;; it wuz a men are frum marz and wimmin are frum penis;;;;;; har har har ;;;;;; and now ah amm uh kwallafide Dockter of Fillossopee;;;;;; snorts;;;; ;;;;scratches flabby white ass;;; Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <93kl93$7v…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <93jqa4$h2…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

>   doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote: > >   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines,

Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of the South American Countries. I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover of asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights.

;;;;laughs;;;; okay, so do you want to get down on your knees in front of me right now, or wait until we have a little privacy? Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <93ko85$b2…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <3A5DDB6B.59D3F…@sympatico.ca

,

>   squig…@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > >   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The > Philippines, > > > > Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most

of the South American Countries. I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover

of

asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ I think these creeps should be thrown out of the newsgroup.  Do you think that women are dogs? Squiggles No, I feel no sexual attraction for dogs.  In fact, I HATE dogs.  On the other hand, I LOVE women, and could never live without them – especially hot, sexy, willing, latin and asian women!!!!

;;;;;awwwww;;;; garshucks, looks lahk mah dawg has low self- uhsteem;;;;  it’s awlraht, doggeh;;;;;  just as soon as we gitcha trained to bury your shit in the backyard properly, then we kin tackle this self-image thang…;;;;  ah shore doo luv you doggeh…;;;; grins;;;; ;;;;;laughs;;;;; i hate bitches Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

On 16-Jan-2001, "B and B" <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net

wrote: Hmmm.  Personally, I find latin and asian women particularly sexy.  And the men.  Rrrowr.   However, Ricky Martin just annoys me.  Hmm..maybe on mute… Oh!  Hey…yeah!  I bet he bangs too!  Woohoo.    Hmmm.   Yup.  Definitely ovulating.

Well, compared to the snatches that men find stimulating in internet porn ie., the nastier the better, I think my lust for Antonio and Ricky is mild. Looking at these two men really gets me going and well, let’s face it, sometimes your partner just doesn’t so you need a little motivation.  And isn’t that what looking at porn all the time is?

Response:

In article <93mghe$td…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

That’s right. I’m a hag, ,,i just knew it,,laughs,,also a charmer!,,, Doc

Garshux, boss! ;;;;snort;;;; ;;;;wudja mind fuckin me up the ass;;;;; Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <93ks0j$eo…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <3A5DE8F8.AB955…@sympatico.ca

,

>   squig…@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > > >   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The > > > Philippines, > > > > > > Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and > most > > > of > > > > > > the South American Countries. > > > > > I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover

of asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ I think these creeps should be thrown out of the newsgroup.  Do you think that women are dogs? Squiggles No, I feel no sexual attraction for dogs.  In fact, I HATE dogs.

On

the other hand, I LOVE women, and could never live without them – especially hot, sexy, willing, latin and asian women!!!! **** OFF! Squiggles I really don’t understand the hostility, Squiggles.  First, you attack me, call me a creep, and demand I be ejected from this group.  When I respond with evidence showing that I am a true lover of women, you become angrier.  What is with you, anyway? Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women?

;;;You tell ‘em, boy! ;;;;snorts;;;; ;;;by the way;;; moans;;;;; please angle your tongue a little more downward;;;;;;ooh;;;; thanks, that hits the spot! Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

,,she’s just a bitch sub,,she’s ageing and her looks are fading, probably also putting on weight now too,, she’s jealous that superior males like us can take our pick of women and pass over bitches like her,,laughs,,,

Any guy (or woman) who claims to be "superior" isn’t Floridanewbie

Response:

"Cherish" <none

wrote in message news:t5sbgis1hc0vba@corp.supernews.com… On 11-Jan-2001, subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote: Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women? Not me.  Let me tell you I think Antonio Sabato Jr is the finest thing on two legs.  And Ricky Martin can really shake his bon bon.

Hmmm.  Personally, I find latin and asian women particularly sexy.  And the men.  Rrrowr.   However, Ricky Martin just annoys me.  Hmm..maybe on mute… Oh!  Hey…yeah!  I bet he bangs too!  Woohoo.    Hmmm.   Yup.  Definitely ovulating.

Response:

"Squiggles" <squig…@sympatico.ca

wrote in message

news:3A5E0F50.9D47054D@sympatico.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote: I really don’t understand the hostility, Squiggles.  First, you attack me, call me a creep, and demand I be ejected from this group.  When I respond with evidence showing that I am a true lover of women, you become angrier.  What is with you, anyway? Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women? ,,she’s just a bitch sub,,she’s ageing and her looks are fading, probably also putting on weight now too,, she’s jealous that superior males like us can take our pick of women and pass over bitches like her,,laughs,,, Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ That’s right. I’m a hag, and I am already taken.  My looks aren’t fading because I never had any, and I am not putting on weight because I was born obese.  As for being jealous that I was passed over, there was nobody who would pass over me because I was at the bottom of the list.  OK? Now go hunt your prize, and **** off! Squiggles

LOL!!! Damn, Squiggles.  Wanna borrow my hedgeclippers so you can castrate them?

Response:

That’s right. I’m a hag,

,,i just knew it,,laughs,,also a charmer!,,, Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <93jqa4$h2…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

A remarkably banal load of crap. Dear Doctor…..is your last name demento? why do you seem to think that asian women would be betersuited to you. Have your travelled much. I’d just love to see you end you with a lovely Thai woman. Perferably one you could rent by the hour. run hom;e to mommey now, like a good boy And leave us alone now. You will not be missed. Artemesia /*/*/*/*/* */*/*/*/* */*/*/*/* /*/*/*/*/* Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

I really don’t understand the hostility, Squiggles.  First, you attack me, call me a creep, and demand I be ejected from this group.  When I respond with evidence showing that I am a true lover of women, you become angrier.  What is with you, anyway? Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women?

,,she’s just a bitch sub,,she’s ageing and her looks are fading, probably also putting on weight now too,, she’s jealous that superior males like us can take our pick of women and pass over bitches like her,,laughs,,, Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

I really don’t understand the hostility, Squiggles.  First, you attack me, call me a creep, and demand I be ejected from this group.  When I respond with evidence showing that I am a true lover of women, you become angrier.  What is with you, anyway? Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women? ,,she’s just a bitch sub,,she’s ageing and her looks are fading, probably also putting on weight now too,, she’s jealous that superior males like us can take our pick of women and pass over bitches like her,,laughs,,, Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

That’s right. I’m a hag, and I am already taken.  My looks aren’t fading because I never had any, and I am not putting on weight because I was born obese.  As for being jealous that I was passed over, there was nobody who would pass over me because I was at the bottom of the list.  OK? Now go hunt your prize, and **** off! Squiggles

Response:

On 11-Jan-2001, subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote:

Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women?

Not me.  Let me tell you I think Antonio Sabato Jr is the finest thing on two legs.  And Ricky Martin can really shake his bon bon.

Response:

I hope you’re being sarcastic. Squiggles <squig…@sympatico.ca

wrote in message

news:3A5E0F50.9D47054D@sympatico.ca… <snip

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

That’s right. I’m a hag, and I am already taken.  My looks aren’t fading because I never had any, and I am not putting on weight because I was born obese.  As for being jealous that I was passed over, there was nobody who would pass over me because I was at the bottom of the list.  OK? Now go hunt your prize, and **** off! Squiggles

Response:

In article <93jqa4$h2…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

  The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of the South American Countries.

I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover of asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

In article <3A5DDB6B.59D3F…@sympatico.ca

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  squig…@sympatico.ca wrote:

  The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The

Philippines,

Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most

of

the South American Countries. I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover of asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones

you

mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your

clever

and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ I think these creeps should be thrown out of the newsgroup.  Do you think that women are dogs? Squiggles

No, I feel no sexual attraction for dogs.  In fact, I HATE dogs.  On the other hand, I LOVE women, and could never live without them – especially hot, sexy, willing, latin and asian women!!!! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote:

In article <3A5DDB6B.59D3F…@sympatico.ca,   squig…@sympatico.ca wrote:   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of the South American Countries. I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover of asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ I think these creeps should be thrown out of the newsgroup.  Do you think that women are dogs? Squiggles No, I feel no sexual attraction for dogs.  In fact, I HATE dogs.  On the other hand, I LOVE women, and could never live without them – especially hot, sexy, willing, latin and asian women!!!! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

**** OFF! Squiggles

Response:

In article <3A5DE8F8.AB955…@sympatico.ca

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  squig…@sympatico.ca wrote:

  The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and

most

of the South American Countries. I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover

of

asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the

ones

you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ I think these creeps should be thrown out of the newsgroup.  Do you think that women are dogs? Squiggles No, I feel no sexual attraction for dogs.  In fact, I HATE dogs.  On the other hand, I LOVE women, and could never live without them – especially hot, sexy, willing, latin and asian women!!!! **** OFF! Squiggles

I really don’t understand the hostility, Squiggles.  First, you attack me, call me a creep, and demand I be ejected from this group.  When I respond with evidence showing that I am a true lover of women, you become angrier.  What is with you, anyway? Are you some kind of racist who hates latin and asian women? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:

Women think on an emotional basis rather than a logical basis; that is why they are bad decision makers

Actually, they’re much more in touch with their intuitive side, (as are all those who are highly successful in business). *********

and rarely are seen making multimillion dollar decisions in the corporate structure.

Not exactly true any more. And less so each day. CJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -CJMorgan59 wrote:

doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote: Women think on an emotional basis rather than a logical basis; that is why they are bad decision makers Actually, they’re much more in touch with their intuitive side, (as are all those who are highly successful in business). ********* and rarely are seen making multimillion dollar decisions in the corporate structure. Not exactly true any more. And less so each day. CJ

On the one had Doc rants about the conniving nature of women and how they dig gold, and on the other, they are bad decision makers and illogical.  Seems to me you could use a course in undergraduate logic yourself Doc – start with valid arguments. What an asshole! Squiggles

Response:

If he used valid arguements, he wouldn’t have much to post about.  : ) Squiggles <squig…@sympatico.ca

wrote in message

news:3A5DAE7F.7AEB1B83@sympatico.ca… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

CJMorgan59 wrote: doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote: Women think on an emotional basis rather than a logical basis; that is why they are bad decision makers Actually, they’re much more in touch with their intuitive side, (as are

all

those who are highly successful in business). ********* and rarely are seen making multimillion dollar decisions in the corporate structure. Not exactly true any more. And less so each day. CJ On the one had Doc rants about the conniving nature of women and how they dig gold, and on the other, they are bad decision makers and illogical.  Seems to me you could use a course in undergraduate logic yourself Doc – start with valid arguments. What an asshole! Squiggles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -subversionma…@my-deja.com wrote:

In article <93jqa4$h2…@nnrp1.deja.com,   doctor_w…@my-deja.com wrote:   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of the South American Countries. I’ve never done the mail order thing, doc, but as a fellow lover of asian and latin women, (for asthetic reasons, as well as the ones you mentioned) I do commend you on your taste and, as always, your clever and thought-provoking insights. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

I think these creeps should be thrown out of the newsgroup.  Do you think that women are dogs? Squiggles

Response:

Women think on an emotional basis rather than a logical basis; that is why they are bad decision makers and rarely are seen making multimillion dollar decisions in the corporate structure. They are insanely jealous and suspicious of all men (as they should be).  However, if a woman is truly in love, she is extremely loyal to her mate. "Your boyfriend beats the living shit from you constantly, hasn’t fed your kids for weeks and spends all your money on his crack addiction! Why don’t you dump him?" "Because I love him so much," is their standard excuse. Is she afraid that she’ll find someone worse? What a fucking joke! Even though women think on an emotional basis, they are very good at messing with guys’ brains.  Have you ever heard of a woman killing herself over a man?  Women are natural psychologists and know every button to press to ruin a man’s self esteem, ego, career and wallet, then send him to jail. Even after a woman sees a man for a few times and develops a loathing for him, she is still concerned about hurting the poor sap’s feelings. 95%of the time they will use one of two "break up" techniques: She will totally ignore the guy (not returning phone calls, etc.) and hope he just forgets about her. This is especially true if the woman has borrowed money or personal items and realizes that if she breaks it off, she still has to deal with him personally. She will purposely become such an unbearable bitch that she hopes that the guy breaks the whole thing off himself.   The other 5%?  She will exaggerate every small personal flaw in the man and use those as the excuses as to why she has to be the one to break up with him. Sometimes this technique is used when the first two fail. The worst thing a man can do is confide personal details to a woman.  If a man tells a woman something stupid about himself, like an unpaid parking ticket from a few years ago, he has a very good chance of ruining her preconceived notion that "this is the perfect guy."  Talk about something stupid like your goals in life or how much money you earn. Forget giving women directions! Even if they have lived in the same area for 20 years, a simple direction like, "Go west on Pacific Coast Highway until you reach the ocean," is meaningless. "Is that a right or a left?" "It depends on which way you’re coming from!  JUST FOLLOW THE SUNSET!" Foreign women (non-American) are increasingly starting to appeal to American Men. Everyone (male and female) in America grows up learning to be self reliant and independent.  That is why most American women fail to realize that the final decision on anything should be left up to the man (the logically thinking gender).   Foreign women, for the most part, grow up in a strong family environment and have always been dependent on an external means of support.  They are much more compassionate, reliable, truthful and honest.  They are not used to making big decisions and rarely want to try.   The best places to mail away for foreign women are: The Philippines, Thailand, Japan, ex-Soviet block nations, Russia, Mexico and most of the South American Countries.   Until Scientists perfect the invention of the artificial women, it is important that both genders understand the female persuasion.  A lot of men don’t know why women act the way they do –and, a lot of women don’t have a clue as to why they act they way they do!  Until now!  Please share this information with others.  We will become one step closer to World Peace! Doc Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Response:

Question:

Well, so much for BM working with us to try and get SS the help he needs through this entire fiasco. SS told Mike the other day he wanted to move in with his mom, that he’d already discussed it with her on Saturday. We discussed the situation Tuesday night and I tried explaining that now is not the best time to be making decisions.  SS has to deal with the school, he has to deal with court, he needs to concentrate on THAT before making any life-altering decisions about where he’s going to live (something his mother should have pointed out to him). I then asked him what had changed in the last two weeks.  Two weeks ago, he couldn’t fathom staying with his mom for three weeks during the summer – now all of a sudden he wanted to move in with her.  He couldn’t tell me. I then asked what about the house he didn’t like, that instead of just up and deciding he was moving, he needed to give us an opportunity to work together to fix the family.  He couldn’t tell us that either. Then we asked what would make him happy.  We were like, okay, forget about here, what would make YOU happy, as a person.  He couldn’t answer that question either.  Actually, the only answer he had was to change the past – which, unfortunately, isn’t possible. I explained to him that if he didn’t know what was going to make him happy here, he probably wouldn’t find it at mom’s.  You need to know what you’re looking for before you can find it and I honestly think he doesn’t know what he’s looking for. I actually think he’s running away again from his problems.  He just doesn’t understand that it’s not always possible to do that. So, BM called last night and told Mike that she didn’t want CS, that it wouldn’t be fair to make him pay when she didn’t pay for so many years (like, 14!) but that she would like him to continue carrying SS on his insurance at work since ours is so much better than either plan they have. Mike called SS at his folks house (he stayed there last night because we got home so late) and said that he thought we had an agreement that SS would stay here until the end of the school year and we’d all work together to make the family thing work.  Well, he may have agreed to that, but that’s not what he wants to do – he wants to leave at the end of the semester. I asked what happens if the court says he can’t leave the state.  Well, then I guess I can’t move.  At that point, I about blew a fuse.  He’s made us so miserable with this moving in with mom thing and going behind our back on this.  You know, if he had come to us before this whole drug/weapon fiasco happened and said, I want to go live with mom, that would have been one thing.  But, when his mom was saying she was going to sue for custody a month ago and we asked him if he wanted to move, he said no.  Suddenly, he gets in trouble and he wants to move in with mom. I have a call into the attorney to see if there would be any restrictions to SS leaving the state.  If not, I’ll tell him not to worry about the drug charge,  Instead, he can draw up the paperwork that custody will revert to mom, we’ll carry SS on our health insurance, she’s responsible for medical/dental expenses, no CS is requested and send it to BM for her signature. What’s so upsetting is that neither BM or Mike’s folks believe SS has depression.  So, once he moves in with her, he’ll no longer be taking his medication.  She made a comment last night about how medication is not always the cure-all and she’s already made it plain she doesn’t believe in the depression diagnosis. So, this kid is moving from one of the best school districts and neighborhoods to one of the worst.  He’ll no longer be taking his medication.  His mother and step-father will be responsible for taking him to court and getting him to his DJO.  That alone should be interesting since she also made a comment last night about how she can’t take a whole lot of time off work so how she’s planning on getting SS to his DJO once or twice a month is anyone’s guess.  She’ll have to leave work, go to Illinois, pick him up, then take him to the county courthouse.  It’ll probably be 60 miles, round trip.  That’ll get old quick. When SS got home from her house Sunday night, Mike searched his bag and found another pipe.  I mentioned that to her last night and she told me that they didn’t go searching through his things (like, asking why we do). I know there are those who are going to say we deserve this and SS will be much happier at his mom’s.  But, I don’t think he will be happier there. Unfortunately, I don’t think SS knows how to be happy. His psychiatrist called me yesterday and basically said that he doesn’t think the day treatment program is going to work for SS.  That SS is minimizing everything he’s done (of course he is, his grandparents are right there swearing none of this is his fault!) and acts like he’s done nothing wrong.  The psych feels that SS will probably end up in residential. Based on the fact that his mom doesn’t believe in the depression, is also minimizing the weapons, doesn’t take the drugs very seriously, he’ll probably be in residential in about six months.  His mom knows the drugs were wrong, but has the NCP attitude of it was just a mistake and these things happen.  Well, no, we said that a year ago when he was caught with the joint and look where it’s gotten us. At this point, Mike feels that SS moving out is a good thing.  We’ll never hear from Mike’s parents because their "only" grandchild (at least, the only one they acknowledge) will be in Illinois so they won’t have a reason to call here.  The stress level in the house will go down.  We won’t have to worry about where SS is, what he’s lying about this time, or what he’s going to do. I guess if I was an optimist, I’d be positive and say this is going to work out well for everyone and SS will be happier with his mom.  I honestly hope so.  But, if the older son only made it 18 months in her house and she kept in constant contact with him, I’m not sure how long it will be before SS is begging to move back in with us. Right now, Mike says SS can stay with his folks until the drug treatment program is completed, then he can move in with his mom.  We’ll send a letter to DFS that CS from her should be stopped and she’s only responsible for paying what she owes in arrears.  We’ll draw up the custody papers and he wants to totally re-do the room in the basement.  He says if SS decides he wants to come to visit, he can sleep on the couch.  I’m not real sure I agree with the couch part, but I figure Mike’s entitled to vent his anger. It’s hard when one week you hear I’ll  work with you to get him help, to the next week of, he’s moving in with me and you either need to work with me to make it happen and pay no CS, or I’ll take you to court and you’ll pay CS (to which Mike replied fine, but then I’m not carrying him on my insurance). Somebody please tell me this nightmare will be over soon.

Response:

Big Poopa Pump <yoboo…@spamites.com

wrote in message

news:39f9fb1e.29046665@news.alt.net… snip

Why? Is Sluts R Us your website? Oh I forgot.  You are too ugly to be a slut. Must be your mother’s site. Loev, Big Poopa Pump

LMAO!   I have to admit nice try!  But, obviously looks do not matter when it comes to sluts. I am sure you have had a bag put over your head more than once in the bedroom. Dana P.S. Thanks for following me to alt.adoption.  They are going to enjoy you.

Response:

I am sure you have had a bag put over your head more than once in the bedroom.

Actually, probably three.  A double bag for the head, in case one falls off, and one for the other party to throw up in.   Geri (Adding to the juvenile posting.)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:07:23 GMT, dana…@my-deja.com (Dana) wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:37:47 GMT, dana…@my-deja.com (Dana) wrote: On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:24:50 -0700, "Louise Taylor" <lsun…@aracnet.com wrote: Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child? Mike needs to deal with the courts, the school, the doctor, the treatment center and anyone else.  His son needs to see that he cares.  If you let this child leave without so much as Mike talking to him first, you are going to be lucky if he lives to the end of the year.  I sound harsh.  I know I do.  But I have been where your SS is.  I was smart enough to ask for help because I knew something was wrong.  I begged my parents to get me some help because I wasn’t coping.  They didn’t.  I tried to commit suicide less than two months later.  I ran away from home on several occasions.  I did everything to get their attention.  The only reason I am still alive today is because of Dr. Kaplan.  My parents ignored my cries for help.  Please don’t do the same.  Mike needs to be the one taking a proactive stance with his own child.  Not you.  Not the grandparents.  Mike.  Are you listening to me?  This child needs his father now more than ever and from everything you have written, Mike isn’t doing it.  You are.  Back off and let Mike deal with this. This kid hasn’t had a chance.  You blamed him for your marriage troubles. When this all happened, you blamed him because you couldn’t go home for Christmas.  He can’t win for losing with you people.  It makes me sad and it makes me angry.  By God, he is 14 years old.  You two have been dumping on him for years.  Now, he wants to live with his mom and he is wrong again. If he stays with you, you will keep blaming him for absolutely everything. Maybe, just maybe, if he lives with his mom, he thinks this will come to an end.  But it won’t.  Because then he will be the cause of you having to pay CS.  This child has done some stupid things but he hasn’t had the best example in the world put before him.  He has been cut off from the people who raised him when no one else would.  He was abandoned by his mother, raised my his grandparents and now raised by you.  Do you notice who is absent from this picture?  I bet he feels so abandoned by his father, the one person who could possibly make a difference. Cindy, please wake up before it is too late.  Michael isn’t the only one with a problem here.  The whole family needs counseling in the worst possible way.  Where do you think he learned to run away from his problems? Who taught him that one?  Who taught him violence was an answer to some of his problems, hence the weapons?  Who taught him to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol?  Answer those questions and you just might get to the root of your real problem here.  Sure, Michael needs help.  The entire family needs help.  And Mike needs the most of it. Louise This was a damn good post! I hope Mike wakes up and decides to become a father before it is too late. I also hopw that whomever is being violent, and doing the drinking and or drugs, Cindy or Mike?; will get some help for themselves. Sounds an an extremely messed up dysfunctional family all the way around. Loev, Big Poopa Pump *shaking head* You do not read very well do you?   Try reading the post again, see if you can comprehend it.  If not, perhaps you should post in a newsgroup that uses smaller words.   Dana Didn’t I see your photo in a proctology text? Loev, Big Poopa Pump Honey, is that the best you can come up with? And if we want to discuss pictures, I saw your website before you took the picture of you down.  Where you getting too many emails asking you to join Sluts R Us? Dana

Why? Is Sluts R Us your website? Oh I forgot.  You are too ugly to be a slut. Must be your mother’s site. Loev, Big Poopa Pump

Response:

I think Louise has some very good points. I too wonder what difference it would make if Mike was doing all the things that you do for that boy. Cindy – I think you do a fantastic job but Michael doesnt need a step mum looking out for him, he needs a dad. Why does Mike let you do his job? Why do you feel it is your responsibility? Do you resent it? In a nutshell, Cindy, I think you are TOO GOOD a step mum. Just my humble opinion. Joyojoy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Louise Taylor wrote in message …

Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child?

Response:

Well, I make the phone calls because I can.  I work in an office, make works in an operating room.  It’s not like he can tell the surgeons that he can’t put together a microscope because he’s got to make a few phone calls – you can’t postpone surgery because the technician is having personal problems. The Social Worker at the drug program wants to have a meeting on Monday and Mike asked if I could be there.  I asked if I was "required" to be there. No, I’m not.  But, he wants me there because I come up with interesting questions that he doesn’t think to ask. Now Mike is trying to figure out what to do with SS this weekend.  Right now, he’s still with Mike’s folks because we’ve had a hectic week and we both ended up working late. Plus, Mike’s really hurt and just didn’t feel like dealing with him. Tonight he’ll be out of medicine.  So, Mike’s not sure if he should just bring him more medicine or if he should force SS to come home – even though SS’s made it clear he doesn’t want to be here. It is interesting though.  It seems that when they were first discussing SS moving out, SS told Mike that he didn’t want to be here because our house is a mess and he’s tired of it (which sounds vaguely familiar since BM just accused us of the same thing – sure wish someone would hire me a maid so I wouldn’t have to worry about cleaning house after being gone for 12 hours during the day!).  He also feels that Mike no longer sticks up for him any more and is always on MY side and that Mike never listens to him and always accuses him of lying.  Mike told him that maybe if SS didn’t continually lie, Mike wouldn’t always tell him he was lying (which, apparently threw grandma into a tizzy). Since both SS’s mom and his grandparents still feel SS can do no wrong (even after this mess), I think that’s why he wants to move.  Not because we’ve necessarily done something wrong, but because we make him responsible for his actions and we’re the only ones that do. While this fiasco is certainly serious, it could have been a lot worse and it’s certainly something SS can learn from if he takes the opportunity.  I think the problem is that he doesn’t want to learn from this, he wants someone to tell him it wasn’t his fault and he just got in the wrong crowd, etc.  Which, is basically what his mom and his grandparents are telling him – that this is no big deal. The one piece of good news is that one of the guys I work with (who also works at one of the Universities here in town) wants a copy of my resume. He has an Administration position coming open and he discussed my qualifications with the team for that group and they were impressed.  The pay would be higher, it’d be closer to home so I wouldn’t be getting home almost 12 hours after I left, and the benefits are similar to what I have now.  Plus, of course, it’s a University so I could take some classes too. The truly ironic part is that it’d be working with recovering drug addicts. Cindy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:37:47 GMT, dana…@my-deja.com (Dana) wrote: On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:24:50 -0700, "Louise Taylor" <lsun…@aracnet.com wrote: Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child? Mike needs to deal with the courts, the school, the doctor, the treatment center and anyone else.  His son needs to see that he cares.  If you let this child leave without so much as Mike talking to him first, you are going to be lucky if he lives to the end of the year.  I sound harsh.  I know I do.  But I have been where your SS is.  I was smart enough to ask for help because I knew something was wrong.  I begged my parents to get me some help because I wasn’t coping.  They didn’t.  I tried to commit suicide less than two months later.  I ran away from home on several occasions.  I did everything to get their attention.  The only reason I am still alive today is because of Dr. Kaplan.  My parents ignored my cries for help.  Please don’t do the same.  Mike needs to be the one taking a proactive stance with his own child.  Not you.  Not the grandparents.  Mike.  Are you listening to me?  This child needs his father now more than ever and from everything you have written, Mike isn’t doing it.  You are.  Back off and let Mike deal with this. This kid hasn’t had a chance.  You blamed him for your marriage troubles. When this all happened, you blamed him because you couldn’t go home for Christmas.  He can’t win for losing with you people.  It makes me sad and it makes me angry.  By God, he is 14 years old.  You two have been dumping on him for years.  Now, he wants to live with his mom and he is wrong again. If he stays with you, you will keep blaming him for absolutely everything. Maybe, just maybe, if he lives with his mom, he thinks this will come to an end.  But it won’t.  Because then he will be the cause of you having to pay CS.  This child has done some stupid things but he hasn’t had the best example in the world put before him.  He has been cut off from the people who raised him when no one else would.  He was abandoned by his mother, raised my his grandparents and now raised by you.  Do you notice who is absent from this picture?  I bet he feels so abandoned by his father, the one person who could possibly make a difference. Cindy, please wake up before it is too late.  Michael isn’t the only one with a problem here.  The whole family needs counseling in the worst possible way.  Where do you think he learned to run away from his problems? Who taught him that one?  Who taught him violence was an answer to some of his problems, hence the weapons?  Who taught him to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol?  Answer those questions and you just might get to the root of your real problem here.  Sure, Michael needs help.  The entire family needs help.  And Mike needs the most of it. Louise This was a damn good post! I hope Mike wakes up and decides to become a father before it is too late. I also hopw that whomever is being violent, and doing the drinking and or drugs, Cindy or Mike?; will get some help for themselves. Sounds an an extremely messed up dysfunctional family all the way around. Loev, Big Poopa Pump *shaking head* You do not read very well do you?   Try reading the post again, see if you can comprehend it.  If not, perhaps you should post in a newsgroup that uses smaller words.   Dana Didn’t I see your photo in a proctology text? Loev, Big Poopa Pump

Honey, is that the best you can come up with? And if we want to discuss pictures, I saw your website before you took the picture of you down.  Where you getting too many emails asking you to join Sluts R Us? Dana

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:37:47 GMT, dana…@my-deja.com (Dana) wrote:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:24:50 -0700, "Louise Taylor" <lsun…@aracnet.com wrote: Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child? Mike needs to deal with the courts, the school, the doctor, the treatment center and anyone else.  His son needs to see that he cares.  If you let this child leave without so much as Mike talking to him first, you are going to be lucky if he lives to the end of the year.  I sound harsh.  I know I do.  But I have been where your SS is.  I was smart enough to ask for help because I knew something was wrong.  I begged my parents to get me some help because I wasn’t coping.  They didn’t.  I tried to commit suicide less than two months later.  I ran away from home on several occasions.  I did everything to get their attention.  The only reason I am still alive today is because of Dr. Kaplan.  My parents ignored my cries for help.  Please don’t do the same.  Mike needs to be the one taking a proactive stance with his own child.  Not you.  Not the grandparents.  Mike.  Are you listening to me?  This child needs his father now more than ever and from everything you have written, Mike isn’t doing it.  You are.  Back off and let Mike deal with this. This kid hasn’t had a chance.  You blamed him for your marriage troubles. When this all happened, you blamed him because you couldn’t go home for Christmas.  He can’t win for losing with you people.  It makes me sad and it makes me angry.  By God, he is 14 years old.  You two have been dumping on him for years.  Now, he wants to live with his mom and he is wrong again. If he stays with you, you will keep blaming him for absolutely everything. Maybe, just maybe, if he lives with his mom, he thinks this will come to an end.  But it won’t.  Because then he will be the cause of you having to pay CS.  This child has done some stupid things but he hasn’t had the best example in the world put before him.  He has been cut off from the people who raised him when no one else would.  He was abandoned by his mother, raised my his grandparents and now raised by you.  Do you notice who is absent from this picture?  I bet he feels so abandoned by his father, the one person who could possibly make a difference. Cindy, please wake up before it is too late.  Michael isn’t the only one with a problem here.  The whole family needs counseling in the worst possible way.  Where do you think he learned to run away from his problems? Who taught him that one?  Who taught him violence was an answer to some of his problems, hence the weapons?  Who taught him to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol?  Answer those questions and you just might get to the root of your real problem here.  Sure, Michael needs help.  The entire family needs help.  And Mike needs the most of it. Louise This was a damn good post! I hope Mike wakes up and decides to become a father before it is too late. I also hopw that whomever is being violent, and doing the drinking and or drugs, Cindy or Mike?; will get some help for themselves. Sounds an an extremely messed up dysfunctional family all the way around. Loev, Big Poopa Pump *shaking head* You do not read very well do you?   Try reading the post again, see if you can comprehend it.  If not, perhaps you should post in a newsgroup that uses smaller words.   Dana

Didn’t I see your photo in a proctology text? Loev, Big Poopa Pump

Response:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:22:33 -0500, "Cynthia Martin" <imaf…@swbell.net

wrote:

I am wondering if either you or Mike used alcohol or drugs?  I am wondering if either one of you have a violent streak? Loev, Big poopa Pump

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:24:50 -0700, "Louise Taylor" <lsun…@aracnet.com wrote: Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child? Mike needs to deal with the courts, the school, the doctor, the treatment center and anyone else.  His son needs to see that he cares.  If you let this child leave without so much as Mike talking to him first, you are going to be lucky if he lives to the end of the year.  I sound harsh.  I know I do.  But I have been where your SS is.  I was smart enough to ask for help because I knew something was wrong.  I begged my parents to get me some help because I wasn’t coping.  They didn’t.  I tried to commit suicide less than two months later.  I ran away from home on several occasions.  I did everything to get their attention.  The only reason I am still alive today is because of Dr. Kaplan.  My parents ignored my cries for help.  Please don’t do the same.  Mike needs to be the one taking a proactive stance with his own child.  Not you.  Not the grandparents.  Mike.  Are you listening to me?  This child needs his father now more than ever and from everything you have written, Mike isn’t doing it.  You are.  Back off and let Mike deal with this. This kid hasn’t had a chance.  You blamed him for your marriage troubles. When this all happened, you blamed him because you couldn’t go home for Christmas.  He can’t win for losing with you people.  It makes me sad and it makes me angry.  By God, he is 14 years old.  You two have been dumping on him for years.  Now, he wants to live with his mom and he is wrong again. If he stays with you, you will keep blaming him for absolutely everything. Maybe, just maybe, if he lives with his mom, he thinks this will come to an end.  But it won’t.  Because then he will be the cause of you having to pay CS.  This child has done some stupid things but he hasn’t had the best example in the world put before him.  He has been cut off from the people who raised him when no one else would.  He was abandoned by his mother, raised my his grandparents and now raised by you.  Do you notice who is absent from this picture?  I bet he feels so abandoned by his father, the one person who could possibly make a difference. Cindy, please wake up before it is too late.  Michael isn’t the only one with a problem here.  The whole family needs counseling in the worst possible way.  Where do you think he learned to run away from his problems? Who taught him that one?  Who taught him violence was an answer to some of his problems, hence the weapons?  Who taught him to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol?  Answer those questions and you just might get to the root of your real problem here.  Sure, Michael needs help.  The entire family needs help.  And Mike needs the most of it. Louise This was a damn good post! I hope Mike wakes up and decides to become a father before it is too late. I also hopw that whomever is being violent, and doing the drinking and or drugs, Cindy or Mike?; will get some help for themselves. Sounds an an extremely messed up dysfunctional family all the way around. Loev, Big Poopa Pump

*shaking head* You do not read very well do you?   Try reading the post again, see if you can comprehend it.  If not, perhaps you should post in a newsgroup that uses smaller words.   Dana

Response:

Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child? Mike needs to deal with the courts, the school, the doctor, the treatment center and anyone else.  His son needs to see that he cares.  If you let this child leave without so much as Mike talking to him first, you are going to be lucky if he lives to the end of the year.  I sound harsh.  I know I do.  But I have been where your SS is.  I was smart enough to ask for help because I knew something was wrong.  I begged my parents to get me some help because I wasn’t coping.  They didn’t.  I tried to commit suicide less than two months later.  I ran away from home on several occasions.  I did everything to get their attention.  The only reason I am still alive today is because of Dr. Kaplan.  My parents ignored my cries for help.  Please don’t do the same.  Mike needs to be the one taking a proactive stance with his own child.  Not you.  Not the grandparents.  Mike.  Are you listening to me?  This child needs his father now more than ever and from everything you have written, Mike isn’t doing it.  You are.  Back off and let Mike deal with this. This kid hasn’t had a chance.  You blamed him for your marriage troubles. When this all happened, you blamed him because you couldn’t go home for Christmas.  He can’t win for losing with you people.  It makes me sad and it makes me angry.  By God, he is 14 years old.  You two have been dumping on him for years.  Now, he wants to live with his mom and he is wrong again. If he stays with you, you will keep blaming him for absolutely everything. Maybe, just maybe, if he lives with his mom, he thinks this will come to an end.  But it won’t.  Because then he will be the cause of you having to pay CS.  This child has done some stupid things but he hasn’t had the best example in the world put before him.  He has been cut off from the people who raised him when no one else would.  He was abandoned by his mother, raised my his grandparents and now raised by you.  Do you notice who is absent from this picture?  I bet he feels so abandoned by his father, the one person who could possibly make a difference. Cindy, please wake up before it is too late.  Michael isn’t the only one with a problem here.  The whole family needs counseling in the worst possible way.  Where do you think he learned to run away from his problems? Who taught him that one?  Who taught him violence was an answer to some of his problems, hence the weapons?  Who taught him to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol?  Answer those questions and you just might get to the root of your real problem here.  Sure, Michael needs help.  The entire family needs help.  And Mike needs the most of it. Louise

Response:

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:24:50 -0700, "Louise Taylor" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<lsun…@aracnet.com

wrote: Alright, Cindy, I think you are making the biggest mistake yet with this kid.  I want you to listen very carefully to me because I suffered from chronic depression as young as 12 years old.  This kid needs his father’s help.  NOW!  I think he is trying to get his father to fight for him just once.  Through this whole ordeal, it has been you dealing with everything. Michael is screaming for his father’s attention, screaming so loudly that I can hear him over here.  When is he going to get it?  When is Mike going to take responsibility and do what is right by this child, his child? Mike needs to deal with the courts, the school, the doctor, the treatment center and anyone else.  His son needs to see that he cares.  If you let this child leave without so much as Mike talking to him first, you are going to be lucky if he lives to the end of the year.  I sound harsh.  I know I do.  But I have been where your SS is.  I was smart enough to ask for help because I knew something was wrong.  I begged my parents to get me some help because I wasn’t coping.  They didn’t.  I tried to commit suicide less than two months later.  I ran away from home on several occasions.  I did everything to get their attention.  The only reason I am still alive today is because of Dr. Kaplan.  My parents ignored my cries for help.  Please don’t do the same.  Mike needs to be the one taking a proactive stance with his own child.  Not you.  Not the grandparents.  Mike.  Are you listening to me?  This child needs his father now more than ever and from everything you have written, Mike isn’t doing it.  You are.  Back off and let Mike deal with this. This kid hasn’t had a chance.  You blamed him for your marriage troubles. When this all happened, you blamed him because you couldn’t go home for Christmas.  He can’t win for losing with you people.  It makes me sad and it makes me angry.  By God, he is 14 years old.  You two have been dumping on him for years.  Now, he wants to live with his mom and he is wrong again. If he stays with you, you will keep blaming him for absolutely everything. Maybe, just maybe, if he lives with his mom, he thinks this will come to an end.  But it won’t.  Because then he will be the cause of you having to pay CS.  This child has done some stupid things but he hasn’t had the best example in the world put before him.  He has been cut off from the people who raised him when no one else would.  He was abandoned by his mother, raised my his grandparents and now raised by you.  Do you notice who is absent from this picture?  I bet he feels so abandoned by his father, the one person who could possibly make a difference. Cindy, please wake up before it is too late.  Michael isn’t the only one with a problem here.  The whole family needs counseling in the worst possible way.  Where do you think he learned to run away from his problems? Who taught him that one?  Who taught him violence was an answer to some of his problems, hence the weapons?  Who taught him to self-medicate with drugs and alcohol?  Answer those questions and you just might get to the root of your real problem here.  Sure, Michael needs help.  The entire family needs help.  And Mike needs the most of it. Louise

This was a damn good post! I hope Mike wakes up and decides to become a father before it is too late. I also hopw that whomever is being violent, and doing the drinking and or drugs, Cindy or Mike?; will get some help for themselves. Sounds an an extremely messed up dysfunctional family all the way around. Loev, Big Poopa Pump

Response:

Hello Cynthia. This is the first time I have responded to one of your posts. I have been following your posts and lurking until I could better understand your family dynamics. This sounds somewhat like what I dealt with during my first marriage. A 14 yr. old stepson, who had been experimenting with drugs from the age of 10. Being woken up in the middle of the night by a huge BOOM! This was caused by my SS huffing freon out of our air conditioning system. I found spray paint in his room, cigarettes in his foot locker. Suspensions for selling cigs at school. Vandalism, minor theft, the list goes on. He is now 21 and seems to be straightening out. He went through a crack addiction for 2 yrs. prior to this. So, let SS go to BM and see if it makes a difference, although I agree it doesn’t sound like they are taking things seriously enough. This is probably because they haven’t had to deal with it day in and day out. I had a five yr. old BS staying in the same room with SS and I found he was huffing paint in the same room! Now I will tell you, no one would have been telling me what the appropriate action for that one should be. That is endangerment of my child! I pushed and pushed for counseling. My husband at the time, we are no longer married, thought counselors would only screw him up more. I kept voicing my concern that things would only get worse, etc.. Unfortunately our relationship suffered from the stress, we had other problems financially too. During our separation I would ask about SS, I had a great deal of concern for him. He dropped out of school and proceeded to have problems up until recently. I still don’t know if he will stay on the right track, but I hope so. Our children from that marriage love their older brother and want him to be part of their lives. I hope he cherishes that enough to stay straight. I wish all the best for you and your husband, as well as your troubled SS. I wish the best of luck to the BM and Grandparents, who think this has all been blown out of proportion. They are gonna need it. You can cry on my shoulder anytime. I have been through this type of thing too and you need all the support you can get. This group has certainly shown me, in the short time I have been subscribed, that it is a very supportive group of blended families. One of the things I did was join a support group for blended families from my church. This was before I had access to the internet. It saved my sanity. Take care, Deanna "Cynthia Martin" <imaf…@swbell.net

wrote in message

news:7vUJ5.2421$yB5.211703@nnrp3.sbc.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Well, so much for BM working with us to try and get SS the help he needs through this entire fiasco. SS told Mike the other day he wanted to move in with his mom, that he’d already discussed it with her on Saturday. We discussed the situation Tuesday night and I tried explaining that now

is

not the best time to be making decisions.  SS has to deal with the school, he has to deal with court, he needs to concentrate on THAT before making

any

life-altering decisions about where he’s going to live (something his

mother

should have pointed out to him). I then asked him what had changed in the last two weeks.  Two weeks ago,

he

couldn’t fathom staying with his mom for three weeks during the summer –

now

all of a sudden he wanted to move in with her.  He couldn’t tell me. I then asked what about the house he didn’t like, that instead of just up and deciding he was moving, he needed to give us an opportunity to work together to fix the family.  He couldn’t tell us that either. Then we asked what would make him happy.  We were like, okay, forget about here, what would make YOU happy, as a person.  He couldn’t answer that question either.  Actually, the only answer he had was to change the

past -

which, unfortunately, isn’t possible. I explained to him that if he didn’t know what was going to make him happy here, he probably wouldn’t find it at mom’s.  You need to know what you’re looking for before you can find it and I honestly think he doesn’t know

what

he’s looking for. I actually think he’s running away again from his problems.  He just

doesn’t

understand that it’s not always possible to do that. So, BM called last night and told Mike that she didn’t want CS, that it wouldn’t be fair to make him pay when she didn’t pay for so many years (like, 14!) but that she would like him to continue carrying SS on his insurance at work since ours is so much better than either plan they have. Mike called SS at his folks house (he stayed there last night because we

got

home so late) and said that he thought we had an agreement that SS would stay here until the end of the school year and we’d all work together to make the family thing work.  Well, he may have agreed to that, but that’s not what he wants to do – he wants to leave at the end of the semester. I asked what happens if the court says he can’t leave the state.  Well,

then

I guess I can’t move.  At that point, I about blew a fuse.  He’s made us

so

miserable with this moving in with mom thing and going behind our back on this.  You know, if he had come to us before this whole drug/weapon fiasco happened and said, I want to go live with mom, that would have been one thing.  But, when his mom was saying she was going to sue for custody a month ago and we asked him if he wanted to move, he said no.  Suddenly, he gets in trouble and he wants to move in with mom. I have a call into the attorney to see if there would be any restrictions

to

SS leaving the state.  If not, I’ll tell him not to worry about the drug charge,  Instead, he can draw up the paperwork that custody will revert to mom, we’ll carry SS on our health insurance, she’s responsible for medical/dental expenses, no CS is requested and send it to BM for her signature. What’s so upsetting is that neither BM or Mike’s folks believe SS has depression.  So, once he moves in with her, he’ll no longer be taking his medication.  She made a comment last night about how medication is not always the cure-all and she’s already made it plain she doesn’t believe in the depression diagnosis. So, this kid is moving from one of the best school districts and neighborhoods to one of the worst.  He’ll no longer be taking his medication.  His mother and step-father will be responsible for taking him to court and getting him to his DJO.  That alone should be interesting

since

she also made a comment last night about how she can’t take a whole lot of time off work so how she’s planning on getting SS to his DJO once or twice

a

month is anyone’s guess.  She’ll have to leave work, go to Illinois, pick him up, then take him to the county courthouse.  It’ll probably be 60

miles,

round trip.  That’ll get old quick. When SS got home from her house Sunday night, Mike searched his bag and found another pipe.  I mentioned that to her last night and she told me

that

they didn’t go searching through his things (like, asking why we do). I know there are those who are going to say we deserve this and SS will be much happier at his mom’s.  But, I don’t think he will be happier there. Unfortunately, I don’t think SS knows how to be happy. His psychiatrist called me yesterday and basically said that he doesn’t think the day treatment program is going to work for SS.  That SS is minimizing everything he’s done (of course he is, his grandparents are

right

there swearing none of this is his fault!) and acts like he’s done nothing wrong.  The psych feels that SS will probably end up in residential. Based on the fact that his mom doesn’t believe in the depression, is also minimizing the weapons, doesn’t take the drugs very seriously, he’ll probably be in residential in about six months.  His mom knows the drugs were wrong, but has the NCP attitude of it was just a mistake and these things happen.  Well, no, we said that a year ago when he was caught with the joint and look where it’s gotten us. At this point, Mike feels that SS moving out is a good thing.  We’ll never hear from Mike’s parents because their "only" grandchild (at least, the

only

one they acknowledge) will be in Illinois so they won’t have a reason to call here.  The stress level in the house will go down.  We won’t have to worry about where SS is, what he’s lying about this time, or what he’s

going

to do. I guess if I was an optimist, I’d be positive and say this is going to

work

out well for everyone and SS will be happier with his mom.  I honestly

hope

so.  But, if the older son only made it 18 months in her house and she

kept

in constant contact with him, I’m not sure how long it will be before SS

is

begging to move back in with us. Right now, Mike says SS can stay with his folks until the drug treatment program is completed, then he can move in with his mom.  We’ll send a

letter

to DFS that CS from her should be stopped and she’s only responsible for paying what she owes in arrears.  We’ll draw up the custody papers and he wants to totally re-do the room in the basement.  He says if SS decides he wants to come to visit, he can sleep on the couch.  I’m not real sure I agree with the couch part, but I figure Mike’s entitled to vent his anger. It’s hard when one week you hear I’ll  work with you to get him help, to

the

next week of, he’s moving in with me and you either need to work with me

to

make it happen and pay no CS, or I’ll take you to court and you’ll pay CS (to which Mike replied fine, but then I’m not carrying him on my

insurance).

Somebody please tell me this nightmare will be over soon.

Response:

Cynthia, I’m so sorry to hear about all of this … and now he’s moving back with BM?  I wish I could say this was all going to be over soon, but as you obviously CARE about SS, things are probably going to FEEL worse before they feel better.  I, personally, would worry about him after he moved back in with BM MORE than if he stayed with me.  My brother was an addict/alcoholic but realized his problem early (at 19) and got help.  He was Clean & Sober for almost 13 years before he Died last May, and would probably still be clean today if he were still alive. Your SS may decide to co-operate with the help you’re trying to give him or to get help on his own when he gets older.  You have my full support … If you need to "talk", just email me @ cat-sim…@excite.com. HUGS!!!! — Cat "The best friend is likely to acquire the best wife, because a good marriage is based on the talent for friendship." – Friedrich Nietzsche Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Jim, Looks like you have had the opportunity to hang out with a higher social class in Russia.  I am not talking about Russia in the old days.  I am talking about the Russia of today.  My relatives saw a dead body on the street that no one bothered to pick up.  They were told by their guide that it is best not to notice.  And then there is the little girl they have that was given away because her parents couldn’t afford the necessary medical attention she needed.  If she had received the medical care in Russia at the hands of the state, and had lived (antibiotics are scarce and expensive), then her choice at life would most likely have become prostitution.  The other children’s futures were equally as poor but their backgrounds were worse. When she was picked up at the orphanage, she was seen in a pretty dress and bow.  When she was "approved" she was stripped naked.  The clothes must be saved for the other children.  She had to be taught to chew solids because she had seldom eaten anything that wasn’t in a soup bowl.  Meat was especially difficult for her.  And this was at a state run orphanage. Look a little closer this time.  You may not like what you see.  I am not criticizing the country or the people.  They are doing the best for their children that they can.  Sometimes, it means giving them to Americans. Fargo

Response:

Which she would have, I know several doctors there. Treatment is free.

THis much I know, unless you are fortunate enough to afford the good facilities (which do cost extra), the medical care, the facilities, available medicines are all poor and old and outdated.  Antibiotics are incredibly difficult to get there…not cause they aren’t free, but because they don’t have them cause the gov’t can’t always afford to buy them.  That is the situation there…if you want good medical care, you must pay for it.  And only the very richest can afford it. I have heard things are marginally better in Moscow…however, people are running to Moscow cause more things are available there and I have heard from my cousins that there are more homeless people now because there simply aren’t accomodations for all the new desperate people pooring in. Yana

Response:

Communist Housing:                                     A Flaw In The Design                                     The Communist age is history. But across                                     Eastern Europe and the former Soviet                                     Union, more than 170 million people                                     continue to live in the souless, decaying                                     housing complexes that are among its most                                     enduring legacies. These concrete mazes,                                     relics of a time when architecture was at                                     the service of ideology, never matched the                                     state’s promises. Today, experts say these                                     buildings are slowly-ticking time-bombs, as                                     structurally unsound as they are ugly.

This is from Radio Free Europe – and sadly, the majority of people in ex-soviet cities live in these places. Yana

Response:

Jim, Looks like you have had the opportunity to hang out with a higher social class in Russia.  I am not talking about Russia in the old days.  I am talking about the Russia of today.  

As am I. My relatives saw a dead body on the street that no one bothered to pick up.  They were told by their guide that it is best not to notice.  

New one on me. What city? And then there is the little girl they have that was given away because her parents couldn’t afford the necessary medical attention she needed.  If she had received the medical care in Russia at the hands of the state,

Which she would have, I know several doctors there. Treatment is free. While supplies are short knowledge isn’t. The medical schools are filly accredited in the US. and had lived (antibiotics are scarce and expensive),

They’re not that scarce in the major cities. They used to be extremely rare. then her choice at life would most likely have become prostitution.  The other children’s futures were equally as poor but their backgrounds were worse.

Not the norm- what city? Look a little closer this time.  You may not like what you see.

I’ve looked very close, again what city and when?

Response:

After I responded I thought about it. The main thing I see is that so far you haven’t stated anything that would make it any different than most large US cities, or many rural areas for that matter as far as medical care and homelessness. Lack of medical care, homeless children, child prostitution, dead people  laying in alleys/streets. Sounds like Chicago or New York to me. Given that what you have stated exists, and I still don’t think it’s widespread, it sounds about the same as here, good and bad mixed. Does that mean that we cannot have fun in the US?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Communist Housing:                                     A Flaw In The Design                                     The Communist age is history. But across                                     Eastern Europe and the former Soviet                                     Union, more than 170 million people                                     continue to live in the souless, decaying                                     housing complexes that are among its most                                     enduring legacies. These concrete mazes,                                     relics of a time when architecture was at                                     the service of ideology, never matched the                                     state’s promises. Today, experts say these                                     buildings are slowly-ticking time-bombs, as                                     structurally unsound as they are ugly. This is from Radio Free Europe – and sadly, the majority of people in ex-soviet cities live in these places.

Some of the early ones are falling apart. I still want to know how that differs from here? Ever see public housing projects in the US cities?

Response:

I still want to know how that differs from here? Ever see public housing projects in the US cities?

Can’t argue with you there, but MOST people in the US DON’T live in public housing…you’re talking about 15% max here vs maybe 70% there. Yana

Response:

On my street, where I lived in Albany, NY, the neighbors behind me were two retired physicians who vacation in Florida. Also on my street, a lot of the houses were owned by a landlord, named Ploof who rented to welfare people. They looked nice on the outside, but weren’t build well. A family I knew very well, Brenda, with 7 kids, lived on welfare in Ploof’s house. He kicked them out on Christmas day because the door caught on fire.  The legal Aid Society where I worked, managed to get them 2 months stay, so they didn’t have to move until February.   They now live in a 2 room apt that Brenda’s Mom owns. the kids are shipped out to relatives. Brenda is eligible for state housing with 5 bedrooms, but she has turned them down, she says they are all crack houses and she does not want her kids growing up there, so she lives in 2 rooms and her relatives take the kids. Every year or so, Brenda would find a minimum wage job and manage to hold it for awhile. Her daughter told me that she felt she learned her work ethic from her Mom.  When her daughter was in 10th grade she moved in with her aunt, she knew she would never graduate from high school, if she didn’t have a place to study quietly. I could go on and on, about the kids who played in my house, and how one of the girls, 12 was arrested with her Mom, an addict, who lived down the street. They murdered the mom’s boyfriend with an ax. But I lived on that street for 12 years, one block from a big pretty park, I loved the house, I had a nice garden, I liked all my neighbors… the occassional arson fire, every few years, the murders, the crack selling that went on next door and downstairs, the woman next door to me who was beaten by her husband, I listened to at night. The welfare Mom who’s little boy sat on the steps on Halloween waiting for his Mom to come home and take him trick or treating… she never got home..  Sounds awful, huh? These are the same cute kids who helped me plant flowers, who liked having stories read to them, etc. etc. How about all the stories in our news, the crack addiction? The hospital that accidently amuputed the wrong leg on a man? How about all the sixty minutes, 20/20 exposes, Ophrah, Geraldo Rivera..  If you lived in a foreign country and you watched these programs, what would you think of the US, huh?  Do you feel these things describe YOUR neighborhood or town?   Take off your narrow lenses folks, and ask, "So, what is your point?"  My dog is better than your dog? fuzzy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I still want to know how that differs from here? Ever see public housing projects in the US cities? Can’t argue with you there, but MOST people in the US DON’T live in public housing…you’re talking about 15% max here vs maybe 70% there. Yana

Response:

On my street, where I lived in Albany, NY, the neighbors behind me were two retired physicians who vacation in

<some good points made, but snipped anyways Take off your narrow lenses folks, and ask, "So, what is your point?"  My dog is better than your dog? fuzzy

Fuzzy: It’s not about "My dog is better than your dog." Manson took that holierthanthou tone of intellectual pseudo-superiority that makes the blood of most Americans boil. He made some really stupid remarks, sounding like a 19 year old politically correct liberal arts student in a cloud of self deluding idealism. In short, he got what he deserved. I still want to know how that differs from here? Ever see public housing projects in the US cities? Can’t argue with you there, but MOST people in the US DON’T live in public housing…you’re talking about 15% max here vs maybe 70% there. Yana

– For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

It’s not about "My dog is better than your dog." Manson took that holierthanthou tone of intellectual pseudo-superiority that makes the blood of most Americans boil. He made some really stupid remarks, sounding like a 19 year old politically correct liberal arts student in a cloud of self deluding idealism. In short, he got what he deserved.

You put it perfectly. Fargo

Response:

Take off your narrow lenses folks, and ask, "So, what is your point?"  My dog is better than your dog?

I have been to a former Soviet Republic, namely Latvia, and I can say with certainty, that except for the poorest of the poor in this country, no one would want to move there in preference to the US at this point in time unless they were doing it for altruistic reasons to help over there.   My parents paid for my two young cousins to come here and visit the States for a summer because their folks wanted them to have that experience and to learn better English.  The kids were in awe of the size of the houses, rooms, bathrooms – they had never seen such nice places.  My parents are middle to upper middle class and these kids were convinced we were incredibly rich.  Until they saw some bigger homes and wanted to stop, get out of the car and look at those places closer…they couldn’t believe that these houses were for one family. They knew of noone who lived like that. I am not saying that there aren’t rich people in Latvia, but they are so few and far between that most people are not in contact with them.  And by rich, I mean upper class.  The vast majority of people in the former Soviet Republics are what we would consider poor.  It is getting better little by little but it will be decades before they can match even the poorest of Western European countries.  And mind you, the people themselves want what the other European countries have.  They want nice, new things, places to live, money to buy extras.  They are not living in some happy socialist lala land where they are content to have so little.  They are happy they have food, but there is a big difference between being happy to have food and being totally happy with conditions there. I don’t know, perhaps Russia is marginally better off than Latvia, but not so much so that most people living there have much of their own.  Do people want to leave Russia – ummm when women will sell themselves to westerners one has to wonder what conditions are like there, don’t you think?  Most Russians do not want to leave Russia, but there are many reasons for this that have nothing to do with standard of living. Yana

Response:

It’s not about "My dog is better than your dog." Manson took that holierthanthou tone of intellectual pseudo-superiority that makes the blood of most Americans boil. He made some really stupid remarks, sounding like a 19 year old politically correct liberal arts student in a cloud of self deluding idealism. In short, he got what he deserved.

I got what I deserved? Not from your peurile post that rehashed crap from 50+ years ago. The ignorance of people like you never ceases to amaze me.

Response:

Jim, Where do you get this "rehashed crap from 50+ years ago" line?  I am the one you first took offense with.  And I assured you that my family’s experience (note the word experience) with Russia was the current Russia, not the past. I expressed concern about the living conditions there.  You are the one set your self up as the guardian of the gate and acted as if there was a competition between these two countries. Poverty and hopelessness if a tragedy no matter where you find it. Fargo

Response:

Jim, Where do you get this "rehashed crap from 50+ years ago" line?  I am the one you first took offense with.

Probably the stuff about Stalin. Unless he’s still alive.  And I assured you that my family’s experience (note the word experience) with Russia was the current Russia, not the past. I expressed concern about the living conditions there.  You are the one set your self up as the guardian of the gate and acted as if there was a competition between these two countries.

Correct me if I’m wrong but you were the person that stated it was impossible to enjoy yourself in Russia. Sounds like a direct comparison to me. Why be surprised when someone disagrees with that assessment? Why be surprised when someone points out that there are <gasp actually some people in the US with problems too? If poverty and hopelessness was all that existed in Russia I wouldn’t go there. I think you need to get a sense of perspective- Russia has problems but it’s far from the worse out there. Believe it or not some people there are, amazingly enough, actually happy. Of course they are probably deluding themselves and I’ll be sure and tell them that, according to you, they are actually miserable and have no reason to go on.

Response:

Fuzzy: It’s not about "My dog is better than your dog." Manson took that holierthanthou tone of intellectual pseudo-superiority that makes the blood of most Americans boil. He made some really stupid remarks, sounding like a 19 year old politically correct liberal arts student in a cloud of self deluding idealism. In short, he got what he deserved.

This is exactly my point, this is more a "feeling" thing than a factual dispute. It was Manson’s tone, and the thing that rancled was the affront to being an "American".   I think that the difference, at least on my part, is that although I am an american citizen, much of my family has lived in other countries for a large part of their lives. My Dad has lived more in other countries than here, and remarried a chinese indonesian. The "feeling thing" I am responding to, is not which country is better… of course the US is richer, our corporations own most of the world’s resources, and have control over labor, land, mineral rights, etc in many 3rd world countries. Our consumer products have captured the desires of much of the world’s population. If Russia tried to build a factory to manufacture and bottle soda, they would have a hard time compoeting against Coke or Pepsi, even if their product was better. 3rd world countries are between a rock and a hard place. And I know of no solution, but it only adds insult to injury for us, as a people to claim that somehow we are superior to them.  As I said, what is your point?  We were just here first, we captured the market, and the rest of the world that is behind us really has the dregs in terms of resources to try and build a life. I think China took the wisest approach, in retrospect, although it was partly unintentional. They kept the US OUT of their country for 50 years while they built up their own industry.  Experts show that in order to succeed against the US and Europe, a country needs to have developed at least  a base of factories and manufacture their own textiles, metals, etc  Now China is able to export their own products. I am certainly glad to be here in this country, I would be stupid not to be.  But, with humility and a heavy conscience I know that the luxury I live with, even living at the US poverty level, exceeds that of any third world country.  I know that just by living here, I use more than my share of the world’s resources of electricity, clean water, and land fill.   When I hear about a Latvian child being awed by the size of our houses… of course she would be… but is that anything to take pride in? Or to criticize another country for lacking?  I would take pride if someone was awed at how happy my kids were (I am staying away from how clean my house is or how well behaved my kids are )    .. but not in how big our houses are.  I just feel the emphasis is wrong.  We should not be comparing these things.  If we have more, than we should be sharing it with others and helping others to attain it. I think travel between cultures is important, so that our world becomes smaller. That is why I was part of a peace group called servas that hosts foreign visitors to this country, free for 2 days in my home. And I visited Europe that way myself.  The idea was peace is generated when enough people in each country get to know each other, personally. So I am not gloating that we are BETTER, and I am not implying that somehow the US is doing something right, and Russia is doing something wrong. I do not believe it has anything to do with "freedom" here or "totalitarianism" there.  Its plain economics. It has more to do with freedom in buying and selling than freedome of speech (which was not mentioned, but is always implied in these discussions about the US vs. other countries). The US just entered the world market first, and we now have the upper hand. On the human, spiritual level, I think that there can be happiness anywhere. All countries have natural beauty in the landscape. Mothers everywhere love their children, and children can be happy with only loving parents and a few toyes to play with. Wealth does not guarentee happiness. So no matter where a tourist goes, there are crafts, customs, warm, loving people, native song and dance and beautiful country to enjoy.  And this is what people love, as well as an ethnic tradition and pride in their history. So while we take pride in our history and ethnic traditions as Americans, lets keep it in perspective and with humility. fuzzy

Response:

Question:

snip… You are not. You never will be. You are a perverse individual who, I am ashamed to say, just happens to be gay. Do us all a favor and, please, get lost, creep.

I always know when you’ve reached the end of your "science" Frod, when you come up with peans of hate like this.  It’s OK. I forgive you.                         George M. Carter

Response:

Actually, it is because my friends do not fear diversity, as you do, but rather embrace it. "Perversity", not "diversity" is what I speak of. George — take your perverse freak show elsewhere. Such a delightful perversity!  Being gay is considered "perversity" by many.  This is EXACTLY why you are so terribly conflicted.

No, George. You are first perverse. Then you are gay. In your case one does not exclude the other. However, the perverse George M. Carter is what arrives here to screech and swish his way into the spotlight, no different than the perverse freaks who squeal in delight at the first sight of a TV camera during a "gay pride" parade. You are NOT representative of gay and lesbians by any means. The vast majority of gay men and women are not perverse, they are NOT like you, no matter how badly you want to believe otherwise. They have jobs in mainstream America. You never have. They aren’t heroin addicts. You are. They aren’t liars and con artists. You are. They wouldn’t ever think of killing their fellow man for money or attention. You never hesitated. They may laugh at freaks like you, but when the parade’s over, they shudder at the thought that America thinks that the high profile queens and freakazoids like you are representative of them. You are not. You never will be. You are a perverse individual who, I am ashamed to say, just happens to be gay. Do us all a favor and, please, get lost, creep. fred

Response:

Actually, it is because my friends do not fear diversity, as you do, but rather embrace it. "Perversity", not "diversity" is what I speak of. George — take your perverse freak show elsewhere.

Such a delightful perversity!  Being gay is considered "perversity" by many.  This is EXACTLY why you are so terribly conflicted. I’m sure the thought of you walking down the streets hand in hand with the man you love (if you have one) scares the bejesus out of you. You wouldn’t have the guts. Becuase you’ve totally bought into the homophobia of our society and it’s turned you into a quivering dog. And like a fearful dog, you snap and snarl and bite to cover your terror. But recognizing the problem is the first step in healing.  Despite your nastiness, I have hope for you yet!                 George M. Carter

Response:

More power to you George. I sincerely hope your comments bring peace to this discussiongroup. I really hope Fred will seize this opportunity to let bygones be bygones. Let’s hope misc.health.aids will one day be a place where anyone can express his/her opinions and thoughts without the fear of being flamed by others.

Sadly, and from his reply, apparently not. Instead of trying to find a way to make peace, he dredges up old posts, peppering the reply with insults and lies (and obviating the need to point out his many past nasty posts). Why am I not surprised?                 George M. Carter

Response:

[snip] The more strident, authoritarian and insulting your tone becomes, the more apparent that your commentary is based on weak ground and insecurity. And sadly, this will only guarantee the failure of either convincing anyone that your interpretation of the science is accurate [snip] Meantime, I am more than willing to agree to a cease fire in the flame war (and I might ask that you consider treating other contributors to this newsgroup with a bit more respect and dignity). Clearly we are not going to agree on many issues.  If we can discuss those issues with civility, all to the good.  Although it may be best if we kept further interaction to a minimum.            George M. Carter

More power to you George. I sincerely hope your comments bring peace to this discussiongroup. I really hope Fred will seize this opportunity to let bygones be bygones. Let’s hope misc.health.aids will one day be a place where anyone can express his/her opinions and thoughts without the fear of being flamed by others. Frank

Response:

snip… Wishful thinking — this embarassing sterotypical George Mary gay-trash needs to find a crowd to hide in. Actually, it is because my friends do not fear diversity, as you do, but rather embrace it.

"Perversity", not "diversity" is what I speak of. George — take your perverse freak show elsewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At least until a "Gay Pride Parade" comes to town — then these freaks and gay-trash crawl out of their holes to prace, leap, lisp and prattle about their "pride" before the national media — not only do they distort the public’s perception of the majority of gays and lesbians as freaks, perverts or child molesters — when they’re done embarassing the majority, they crawl back under their rocks and hide in their "jobs" in "activism", etc. The majority of the gay and lesbian community then has the rest of the year to repair the damage caused by these monsters. The freaks never suffer the discrimination that they sow with their piggish behavior — everyone else gets to pick up their "mess" … again. I understand your problem now. Your fear of diversity is a hallmark sign of authoritarian thinking.

No, George Mary, it isn’t "diversity", it is "perversity"… yours. You have a profound insecurity about your homosexuality.

Maybe up to age four, after that, you get increasingly jealous. People who are secure in who they are do not feel threatened by the diversity seen in the gay and lesbian community, including the leather daddies and drag queens and radical faeries.

Again, don’t substitute the high-profile perverse for the diverse. This insecurity is rooted in the culture of homophobia as particularly manfested in places like the prison industry.

You thrive on your homophobia — you exhibit it as frequently as possible. As a result, you do not wish to be ridiculed by your macho buddies in the parole system/prison industry (and other such vocations).

Again, the lie. I have nothing to do with the prison industry. Now let’s talk about your co-ownership of the Health Connection and that commission scheme you have going for you at DAAIR. Oh yes, let’s not forget — the ACTUP coalition ownership of those viatical companies. Now before I forget, is your mother still selling those quilt kits? This causes you to be revolted by femininity in men (noting your frequent references to me as "Mary" or "Monica" or little girl–frankly, I don’t find these comments insultng since I think women are great.)

I didn’t create the name "George Mary", Ed Lieb did. It was a twist on the George Mayer scheme of things. And now George Mary, what were all those nasty little names you were pinning on Ed Lieb, myself, or God forbid, Blackdog? You are terrified of seeing macho guys (who usually have their own straight men I know and even "macho" guys like that.)

What on earth are you psychobabbling about, Miss Snit? You pull up your skirt and run at the first sign of masculinity. your entire presence here bespeaks a man of respect.  

Why thank you, Babbles. But, of course, you are that process. Your respect you deserve. And sadly, this will only guarantee convincing anyone that your interpretation of the science is accurate .

Thanks once again, Babs. I wish the best for you, Fred.

I know that must be true. I hope you find some sense of internal peace.

If I were more peaceful, I’d be in a fucking coma. Meantime, I am more than willing to agree to a cease fire in the flame war

I have no problem with that, as I’m the one who proposed it … again. You’ve agreed to this before but within a matter of hours you were right back at it, flaming away and laughing about it. and I might ask that you consider treating other contributors to this newsgroup with a bit more respect and dignity).

See! Here’s your "out"!  You’re not interested in a cease fire or an end to the flame war. You’re setting conditions that reach far beyond what concerns that which YOU – George Carter — does here. Fact is, I give back what I receive. If someone is nice, I answer them in a nice way. However, if someone is using nice in a manipulative way that is deceptive and devious, then I don’t play that shit — they get the tank backed up over them because they are NOT nice. If you don’t like that, then you better intervene to correct them, otherwise you’ll find them in the morning. Clearly we are not going to agree on many issues.  If we can discuss those issues with civility, all to the good.  

Can you discuss issues with "civility"? Although it may be best if we kept further interaction to a minimum.

Fine. These are your words. You will be seeing them in response to your attacks. George somehow overlooks the fact that I attempted to avoid any contact with him on January 1, 1998 and thereafter. He posted one attack after another, with increasingly personal and shrill attacks that I could no longer ignore. We’ll see how long Carter can control himself… this time. fred Here is Carter unprovoked attack #3 for 1998 : Word on this guy Carter is busting out all over! Here he is trying to pretend he has HCV! Take notes, everyone, he is in passive aggressive mode now.

Hey! Cool! I love getting a definitive diagnosis from an anonymous poster! So now what are your sage views on DNCB? Your silence on the issue is the confession that you are a member of the DNCB-Now cryptofascist treatment crowd! Ah, but we have Frod’s Billi-reposts and his persistently repeated, persistently ignored ditherings about "what’s killing San Francisco" to bore us all to an early grave. AIDS can’t be half as deadly as misc.health.aids. But that’s because of the fascist ravings of the Frod Show making any reasoned discussion impossible. Like his analysis of the science of his friends like Dogslobber. People found in disagreement are attacked by frod and all his pseudo-identities. But what the hell. This post will merely generate another from Frod with more inane ripostes and people with serious questions or discussion topics will not post here because of the way they’ll get treated. So who is the real censor of misc.health.aids? The Frod Show.                 George M. Carter Here’s unprovoked attack #4 by Carter in 1998:    I’ve answered…I have…. I don’t…I don’t have kids.  I’m paid… I do…. I type….I don’t… my major….And so on and so on. Too bad Harris can’t tackle pertinent issues. All he seems able to do is talk about himself. For instance, he has completely ignored critiquing Pandoc’s coumarin "cure".

Unlike you, of course, a shy and reticent frod who wouldn’t wish to bore anyone with the legitimacy of identity. So what are your views on DNCB? Or the role of HIV in AIDS? Pseudopandocfrod? Did anyone see Pseudopandocfrod?                 George M. Carter Here is Carter unprovoked attack #5 for 1998 — note the defamatory comments that represent actionable libel : Path: news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!news Newsgroups:   misc.health.aids,misc.health.alternative,sci.med Organization: Free Radical Enterprises Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny44-13.ix.netcom.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: news.primenet.com misc.health.aids:37104 misc.health.alternative:131833 sci.med:230302 Another shocker is that Dr. Harris, M.D. is NOT an AIDS specialist, rather he is a Gerontologist with office space in Salt Lake City (SLC).

Another shocker. This all coming from a failed, second rate acupuncturist with a career littered with failures as he lost his jobs computing, parole officering and otherwise generally being so low down and mean he was fired from everywhere, now living on welfare in a two-bit dive in San Diego. It’s not to be ashamed of Frod, but you needn’t take it out on the rest of the world. Start with your own back yard, dear, and you’ll find the world is ugly in ways you never expected without your having to paint it in shit colors. May you find peace and joy and sudden, startling miracles!                 George M. Carter

Response:

snip… Wishful thinking — this embarassing sterotypical George Mary gay-trash needs to find a crowd to hide in.

Actually, it is because my friends do not fear diversity, as you do, but rather embrace it. At least until a "Gay Pride Parade" comes to town — then these freaks and gay-trash crawl out of their holes to prace, leap, lisp and prattle about their "pride" before the national media — not only do they distort the public’s perception of the majority of gays and lesbians as freaks, perverts or child molesters — when they’re done embarassing the majority, they crawl back under their rocks and hide in their "jobs" in "activism", etc. The majority of the gay and lesbian community then has the rest of the year to repair the damage caused by these monsters. The freaks never suffer the discrimination that they sow with their piggish behavior — everyone else gets to pick up their "mess" … again.

I understand your problem now. Your fear of diversity is a hallmark sign of authoritarian thinking. You have a profound insecurity about your homosexuality. People who are secure in who they are do not feel threatened by the diversity seen in the gay and lesbian community, including the leather daddies and drag queens and radical faeries.  This insecurity is rooted in the culture of homophobia as particularly manfested in places like the prison industry.  As a result, you do not wish to be ridiculed by your macho buddies in the parole system/prison industry (and other such vocations).  This causes you to be revolted by femininity in men (noting your frequent references to me as "Mary" or "Monica" or little girl–frankly, I don’t find these comments insultng since I think women are great.) You are terrified of seeing any of those traits in yourself–traits which would receive the sneering approbation of bigoted macho guys (who usually have their own self-esteem problems; most straight men I know and even "macho" guys of whatever orientation aren’t so hung up on things like that.) You wish to earn their respect–and indeed, your entire presence here bespeaks of a man desperate to achieve a modicum of respect.  But, of course, you are your own worst self-saboteur in that process. Your agitation over not receiving the respect you feel you deserve, rooted in your insecurities about your desire for other men, causes you to make brute, authoritarian statements, laced with invective.  The more strident, authoritarian and insulting your tone becomes, the more apparent that your commentary is based on weak ground and insecurity. And sadly, this will only guarantee the failure of either convincing anyone that your interpretation of the science is accurate or of achieving your long-sought yearning for respect. I think if you address these underlying sexual identity insecurities and conflicts, learn to accept yourself as a gay man and learn to have a little more faith and trust in yourself, you can indeed make important contributions to ending AIDS–or in whatever effort you choose to pursue.  But in the meantime, you’re getting in your own way. I wish the best for you, Fred. I hope you find some sense of internal peace.  Meantime, I am more than willing to agree to a cease fire in the flame war (and I might ask that you consider treating other contributors to this newsgroup with a bit more respect and dignity). Clearly we are not going to agree on many issues.  If we can discuss those issues with civility, all to the good.  Although it may be best if we kept further interaction to a minimum.                 George M. Carter

Response:

<unsnip start … Tired failed parole officer Shaw, Heroin addict George Mary Carter obviously had a problem with the parole officer(s) who failed her. still hiding from his homosexuality and insulting gay men, women, people of color, people with HIV/AIDS Wishful thinking — this embarassing sterotypical George Mary gay-trash needs to find a crowd to hide in.

<… unsnip end At least until a "Gay Pride Parade" comes to town — then these freaks and gay-trash crawl out of their holes to prance, leap, lisp and prattle about their "pride" before the national media —

Taken out of context… the disingenuous George Mary is trapped by her own schemes, scams, distortions, and lies when the <unsnip restores the reality. Indeed….you make my point beautifully. Profoundly homophobic.

Indeed. George, you should seek psychotherapy for your now-confessed homophobia immediately. Another self-hating gay who is a paid whore of the multi-billion dollar prison industry.

I have nothing to do with the "prison industry". You are delusional. Get professional help. Start with a spay-neuter clinic. An industry with an enormously bigoted antigay and anti-lesbian history, not to mention deeply racist.

Looks like George Mary Mayer has a problem with prison. An escapee? A parolee who has fled the torture of complying with society’s norms? A heroin junkie with every day being a perpetual bad-hair day as a renamed-refugee from the law? <forward to FBI/NCCI for ID The evidence for the source of your wounds is becoming much clearer.

No George Mary, you are not the source of any such thing. All your wounds are self-inflicted. You should try Chinese medicine therapy… your Shen disturbance is quite treatable with herbs and acupuncture. If I lived in New York, I’d be more than happy to treat you for free as part of my volunteer AIDS effort — you would also discover new levels of relaxation with my "special" needle technique of Du26. I hope you realize that Lincoln Hospital in the S. Bronx has an incredible success rate with acupuncture therapy for heroin and crack addiction — the lowest recidivism rate anywhere, and without substituting other drugs, including the drug of activism. Go see Dr. Mike there — he’s a wonderful psychiatrist and fantastic human being who has been running the program there for years. Just don’t try your manipulative line of shit with him — he will see right through you in a New York minute. Fred, I believe this experience may yet open unexpected doors to healing.

Indeed. I have opened a few more for you as well. Good luck. I understand you much better now.

I’m glad you’re getting my message, George Mary. fred

Response:

snip… At least until a "Gay Pride Parade" comes to town — then these freaks and gay-trash crawl out of their holes to prace, leap, lisp and prattle about their "pride" before the national media —

Indeed….you make my point beautifully. Profoundly homophobic. Another self-hating gay who is a paid whore of the multi-billion dollar prison industry. An industry with an enormously bigoted antigay and anti-lesbian history, not to mention deeply racist. The evidence for the source of your wounds is becoming much clearer. Fred, I believe this experience may yet open unexpected doors to healing.  I understand you much better now. Good luck.                 George M. Carter

Response:

just more POZ doo doo from neg-boy CarToon

This is all HIV-neg Frod Show is reduced to. No discussion. Just attacking the messenger. I’m deeply insulted by this terrible way he can’t deal with the facts and the science. Tired tactics, Frod.                 George M. Carter

Response:

just more POZ doo doo from neg-boy CarToon This is all HIV-neg Frod Show is reduced to. No discussion.

No need. You never "dis – cuss" Your an ak-ti-vust Just attacking the messenger.

Messengers have a message, you don’t you’re just a silly stereotypical faggot mess! I’m deeply insulted

Bad hair day?? Cheap sham-poooo? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tired George Mary Carter, junkie George…

Response:

Just attacking the messenger. Messengers have a message, you don’t

Yes I do. You a bigot…. you’re just a silly stereotypical faggot mess!

….see? Message: Frod Show. I’m deeply insulted Bad hair day?? Cheap sham-poooo?

Tired failed parole officer Shaw, still hiding from his homosexuality and insulting gay men, women, people of color, people with HIV/AIDS, physicians–gee, just about everybody but Dogslobber and the rotund rebound fellow.                 George M. Carter

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just attacking the messenger. Messengers have a message, you don’t Yes I do. You a bigot…. you’re just a silly stereotypical faggot mess! ….see? Message: Frod Show. I’m deeply insulted Bad hair day?? Cheap chammmm-poooo? Tired failed parole officer Shaw,

Heroin addict George Mary Carter obviously had a problem with the parole officer(s) who failed her. still hiding from his homosexuality and insulting gay men, women, people of color, people with HIV/AIDS

Wishful thinking — this embarassing sterotypical George Mary gay-trash needs to find a crowd to hide in. At least until a "Gay Pride Parade" comes to town — then these freaks and gay-trash crawl out of their holes to prace, leap, lisp and prattle about their "pride" before the national media — not only do they distort the public’s perception of the majority of gays and lesbians as freaks, perverts or child molesters — when they’re done embarassing the majority, they crawl back under their rocks and hide in their "jobs" in "activism", etc. The majority of the gay and lesbian community then has the rest of the year to repair the damage caused by these monsters. The freaks never suffer the discrimination that they sow with their piggish behavior — everyone else gets to pick up their "mess" … again.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More important questions about when to start never Your opinion is duly noted. Thank you for sharing and best of luck!                 George Mary Carter see! opinions, not facts Yep. That’s what you do. That’s what I do.

blah blah blah doo doo Dr. Me does doo doo just more POZ doo doo from neg-boy CarToon doo doo look Mommy "I’m a doctor, wheee!" I’m George Mary … Queen Mary to you! See what I doo… you let me doo you??? Under normal circumstances, that’s called discussing the science.

For Queen Mary, "discussing the science" is an oxymoron Queen Mary is the mother of all morons… It’s important, especially in less than black-and-white sciences like medicine, biology, and so forth.

More blah blah …. doo doo Queen Mary ain’t got no ed-u-ca-shun her brains are doo doo! One thing I’ll say for Darin is that at least he was quite unequivocal.

un-eq-quiv-o-cal…. blah blah doobie doo… He had the guts to say what he believes.

doo doo blah doo doo  … Queen Mary ain’t got no guts doobie doo You run and hide

Nuttin better to doo… get a life queenie mary you ain’t no "dr. me" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                 George Mary "Kneepadz" Carter

Response:

More important questions about when to start never Your opinion is duly noted. Thank you for sharing and best of luck!                 George Mary Carter see! opinions, not facts

Yep. That’s what you do. That’s what I do. Under normal circumstances, that’s called discussing the science. It’s important, especially in less than black-and-white sciences like medicine, biology, and so forth. One thing I’ll say for Darin is that at least he was quite unequivocal. He had the guts to say what he believes. You run and hide (with the exception of your clinically worthless notion of using low-dose protease inhibitors.)                 George M. Carter

Response:

More important questions about when to start never Your opinion is duly noted. Thank you for sharing and best of luck!                 George Mary Carter

see! opinions, not facts

Response:

More important questions about when to start never

Your opinion is duly noted. Thank you for sharing and best of luck!                 George M Carter

Response:

More important questions about when to start

never , how long one must stay

on them a day is probably too long , what to start with

nothing , how to minimize toxicities

easy — don’t start , how to make

them available globally gotta keep your bank account in good standing, that’s right! , what to do when the current crop fails

admit the fraud , how

one defines failure failure of what, your inability and unwillingness to face the facts? and so forth remained undiscussed in this

newsgroup because of assholes like you or your friend Frod Show who have monopolized the conversation and turned it into a waste of bandwidth.                 George M. Carter sticks and stones may hurt my bones. . .but Carter will never hurt me

Response: