Question:

Last update: June 22, 2004 at 10:39 PM State says Hazelden could have done more to prevent overdose death Josephine Marcotty and Jon Tevlin,  Star Tribune June 23, 2004 Hazelden, one of the nation’s premier drug treatment centers, might have prevented the overdose death of a 26-year-old patient in April if its staff members had done a better job assessing her risk for abusing heroin, according to a state investigative report made public Tuesday. It was the first overdose death at Hazelden’s facility in Center City, a state investigator said, and one of only half-a dozen such deaths known to have occurred in treatment centers in Minnesota. Nevertheless, state investigators said Hazelden had violated only minor technical aspects of the law governing care of vulnerable adults, which includes patients at treatment centers. Hazelden officials declined to answer questions about issues raised by the investigation. They said in a prepared statement that both the center’s own internal investigation and that of the state found no evidence of failure or omission on the part of the treatment center or its staff members. The technical violations cited by the state will be addressed, the statement said. The patient, Jessica Stopera of Columbia Heights, was a model, artist and waitress at local restaurants. Her mother, Carol Stopera, said Tuesday that she doesn’t blame Hazelden for her daughter’s death. "It’s an addiction," she said. "If she’s not going to die at Hazelden, she’s going to die on the streets." State investigators suggested Hazelden could have done more. "We all know that somebody shouldn’t die from a drug overdose while receiving treatment for drugs," said Jerry Kerber, director of the state’s licensing division, which investigated the death. Investigators could not pinpoint specific failures in treatment that contributed to her death, he said, but Hazelden’s addiction counselors knew she was at high risk for abusing drugs. She had failed treatment six or seven times in the past five years, and on one occasion had drugs delivered to her while in a different program, the report said. Other patients at Hazelden knew that she had been in contact with her dealer and believed that she was using heroin, the report said. "This is our chance to speculate that perhaps they could have been more vigilant," Kerber said. The state’s report did not identify the patient, but she was named in Chisago County Sheriff’s reports. She was found dead in her bed at Hazelden on April 2 after taking three times the lethal dose of heroin. No one knew how she got it, the state’s report said. Success and troubles Stopera was a graceful young woman with a delightful smile and gentle personality, her friends and mother said. "She was brilliant," her mother said. "She was kind, beautiful, not judgmental, funny. She was successful throughout her troubles. Everybody loved her." But she also had a drug addiction that sent her to Hazelden in January. According to the state’s report, Stopera struggled with depression and staying engaged with the recovery program. But her counselors believed that she was making progress, according to the report. She was placed in a level of treatment that allowed her some freedom to come and go. Kerber said that shortly before her death she had gone on a group outing to the Mall of America in Bloomington. But other patients, who were not identified in the report, said they believed that she was using drugs. One patient said that at the end of March Stopera was nodding during a group session, which looked suspicious. Another patient said phone logs showed that Stopera had received several calls from her former drug dealer. Staff members told investigators that they were not aware of any of those clues about the time of her death. However, two staff members said that earlier in her treatment they suspected she was using drugs and asked her to take a urine test, which she passed. The last time a Hazelden counselor had contact with her was at 4:55 p.m. on April 2. According to the report, the counselor knocked on Stopera’s door and told her it was time for supper. Stopera, who was lying in bed, "started to get up, smiled and told [the counselor] that she was on her way." However, she didn’t show up for supper or for a group meeting later that night. Another patient went to Stopera’s room to remind her of the meeting, but Stopera said she wasn’t going to go, according to the report. At 8 p.m. the same patient went back to Stopera’s room and thought she was asleep. A little more than two hours later, a night staff person went into her room to remind her to take a medication and found her unconscious. Staff members tried to resuscitate her, but emergency medics who arrived moments later said her legs were cold to the touch. Drugs, a spoon and other paraphernalia were found by her bed. The autopsy showed that she had three times the average lethal dose of morphine in her blood. Accidental overdose The report said her death appeared to be an accidental overdose. Kerber said nothing in state regulations would have required treatment staff members to check on her more often. If drug use was suspected, they would have asked her to agree to a test. The report said that Hazelden violated two technical aspects of state regulations. It must do a better job of monitoring places where patients can abuse substances, as well as documenting in patient records ways to reduce risk of abuse. The treatment center also followed legal requirements in other respects, Kerber said. Stopera had an individualized treatment plan that was being followed. Hazelden is not a secure facility, he said. Patients at the center have access to the community, Kerber said, which would give them the chance to contact drug dealers. "There is an understanding that patients will have an opportunity to obtain illicit substances," he said. The treatment center is expected to help people control their urges to obtain and to use the drugs, he said. Carol Stopera said anyone who is determined to get drugs can get them, even in treatment. "Hazelden is not a prison," she said. "A lot of people ask me, are you mad? I can’t be. Hazelden has done lots of good things for people, and they give people respect, even Jessica said that." Chisago County Attorney Katherine Johnson said no information about Stopera or her drug dealer has been referred to her office. She added that it is difficult to investigate cases that originate from Hazelden because in the past the center has been reluctuant to disclose information, citing data privacy issues.

Response:

There was a woman who started going to hospitals in 2000 presenting with suicidal thoughts.  She was often admitted on a 72-hour detention warrant signed by a psychiatrist.  After the three days she’d be so antsy she would fly right out of there..and be back a month later with the same problem; or if not that hospital, one of five other hospitals around the city.  By spring 2001, the hospitals were getting tired of seeing her, so they started refusing to admit her and referring her to non-medical crisis centres.  She would check into such a centre for a three-day voluntary stay, get antsy, and check out either the next morning or the same evening.  One day at around noon, she told an attendant that she wanted to leave.  The attendant asked her to wait a moment so they could talk and went into another room to get a taxi chit.   When the attendant came back, she was gone.  Less than an hour later, she jumped off a bridge, surviving but being left paralyzed below the waist.  Now she, her sister, and her sister’s husband are suing the six hospitals, the crisis centre, and about 20 doctors and nurses, claiming her suicide attempt should have been prevented. This woman knew how to use the mental health system and community resources.  Back in 1996, when I was walking down the street with no shoes on, talking to myself, I didn’t even have the sense to check myself into a hospital.  (Or the crisis centre, which was in existence back then.)  If my parents hadn’t taken me in, I would have died of thirst on the street.  But this poor woman availed herself of all the help she could possibly get–hospitals, psychiatrists, social workers, therapists, pills, etc.–and it still didn’t help her.  Makes me feel like slightly less of a loser, and I hope to fuck she wins her case. One quotation from the transcript of the examination of the crisis centre’s representative.  She went to a hospital, which called the crisis centre, which in turn dispatched a mobile team to interview her.   The mobile team’s notes state that "Before we could begin to assess her crisis, she had fallen asleep for the second time and was therefore unavailable."  So they left and she went home. Flato

Response:

It cost 100,000 dollars Ed said, to cut his feet off which had gangreened from frost bite. You realize what 100,000 could have done if it was spent on the homeless and perhaps have prevented Ed being crippled? An indigent double amputee is gonna cost LOTS as the years roll by. I guess he should have gotten a job like people said. At least now he’ll have benefits for the rest of his life. http://community.webtv.net/damodara/MystoryasIseeit

Response:

Question:

While front-line caseworkers are to be spared, the cuts will affect managers and office personnel, many of whom support the workers making life-or-death decisions. Regier says he is mostly "identifying efficiencies and reducing overhead,"

Well, there were at least 2 supervisors who should have been terminated. Rilya’s supervisor and the gal on the WC. Even the office personnel at DYFS acknowledge that DYFS is dysfunctional, wasteful and out of control.

Ten of the positions will come from the Sun Coast Region, which covers the Tampa Bay area.

Region where another child was murdered–due to cw lying on visitation records.

Lawmakers gave DCF some extra money for child safety, but an amount far less than what even Regier and Gov. Jeb Bush had said was needed.

DCF exposed its nature of targeting those families who are presumed to be naive about the child welfare process.  Hence, they inflate their numbers in Lakeland by chasing *fat* 8 yo boys from a family of big-boned folk. Unfortunately 20/20’s John Stossel poked fun at the dysfunctional DCF.

Florida’s reputation as a dangerous place to be a child at-risk is not helped with these cuts to management," said Jack

Preschool would help beleagured families more, says researchers.

inadequately supervised, as evidenced by their continuing – and deadly –

Supervisors are those who get tired of riding around in cars–goofing off.

state supervisors are needed to monitor contracts and quality.

What qualifications do these folk have to MONITOR CONTRACTS AND QUALITY?

The agency needs more supervisors of front-line workers, not fewer.

Most likely DCF needs to restructure down to much smaller size–and implement more effective reforms. Preschool, drug treatment centers, immigration tracking, for example. http://www.CPSWatch.com/fl/

Response:

Critical cuts at DCF A Times Editorial

Question:

I party with him all the time he is a great guy.

I didn’t mean to imply that he’s not (everyone’s entitled to a couple of mistakes in their lifetime ).

The weird part was talking to some guy and he offered to drive me the 60 miles home because he "had nothing better to do." Plenty of times I’ve hitched rides home from gigs with strangers but something about this guy gave me the creeps so I respectfully declined. Later on I found a few missing posters on telephone poles of people last seen in the area.

Btw, what exactly was it about him that made you think he might have some ‘plans’ with you? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <90b0v7$7n…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  Carolyn <carolyn_silverthr…@my-deja.com

wrote: I party with him all the time he is a great guy. I didn’t mean to imply that he’s not (everyone’s entitled to a couple of mistakes in their lifetime ). The weird part was talking to some guy and he offered to drive me the 60 miles home because he "had nothing better to do." Plenty of times I’ve hitched rides home from gigs with strangers but something about this guy gave me the creeps so I respectfully declined. Later on I found a few missing posters on telephone poles of people last seen in the area. Btw, what exactly was it about him that made you think he might have some ‘plans’ with you?

Nothing. Somebody suggested hiring a hitman but I would have to worry about him running away with the money and I said to find a killer I dont have to go any farther than next door

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The weird part was talking to some guy and he offered to drive me

the

60 miles home because he "had nothing better to do." Plenty of

times

I’ve hitched rides home from gigs with strangers but something

about

this guy gave me the creeps so I respectfully declined. Later on I found a few missing posters on telephone poles of people last

seen in

the area. Btw, what exactly was it about him that made you think he might have some ‘plans’ with you? Nothing. Somebody suggested hiring a hitman but I would have to worry about him running away with the money and I said to find a killer I dont have to go any farther than next door

Oops, I’m sorry, I posted my question under the wrong message, I meant to ask what made you suspect the creepy guy you nearly hitched a ride with (later seeing missing people posters on telephone poles). Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <907fof$hj…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote:

On the other hand I believe those statistics about jobs just begging for people and unemployment being so low – to be wildly over optimistic – in other words *not* reflective of reality.

Never trust the media.  I was unemployed for a long time.  Every morning, on my way to (not very enjoyable) job, I drive by one place that interviewed me and never called back.  I’m always angered by the ‘fact’ – judging by the Help Wanted-type sign in front of the building – that the position went unfilled for many months after I was turned away.  Why not train someone, if he’s not up to speed?  Nobody wants to give another person a break, especially those who have lousy social skills.  Companies will delay a project indefinitely, until they find their dream candidate.  I’m getting mad…. — Joe Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <9066a2$f7…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  SS <SoulSurg…@webtv.net

wrote: And the truth is that the homeless, to a very large degree, simply do not want to reenter mainstream society. Another city hall leader who gets it, but can’t say it publicly for fear of being attacked as a heartless bastard, says: "I look at the homeless now, after all the years of efforts and all the programs that have come and gone, and I can almost see them laughing at the suits hurrying to their jobs. There is a defiance that is hard to

understand,

and maybe impossible to address. The bottom line is, many of them are choosing homelessness."

  This, of course, adds an intriuging dimension to the scenario which we have a lot around my area, and I expect around yours, where people say "Oh, they’re not really homeless.  I saw <that beggar

carrying <a car,

a mobile phone

, etc, the other day."

  Yet this brings up the intriuging question of homeless people actually having enough money to live in a middle-class way.  In other words, people being homeless even though they actually do have enough money to have a house!   Think how much money you’d need to never work again.  Now delete all your housing and rental expenses from that.  Pretty big chunk, isn’t it?   And, hey, do you need a house?  The only difficult bit is sleeping rough and homeless people get used to that.  Beyond that, what would you like to do?  Watch TV?  Go in a pub.  Wash?  Supermarket washroom. Listen to music?  Go in the music store, or get a Walkman or MD Player – expensive, yep, but think how much you’re saving by not having to run a house!  Food?  Buy it.  Who cooks nowadays?  Computer? Go to the nearest cybercafe or public library.  Want to Travel?  You can go cheaper than anyone else, because you don’t have to come back. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

  This, of course, adds an intriuging dimension to the scenario which

we

have a lot around my area, and I expect around yours, where people say "Oh, they’re not really homeless.  I saw <that beggar carrying <a

car,

a mobile phone, etc, the other day."   Yet this brings up the intriuging question of homeless people

actually

having enough money to live in a middle-class way.  In other words, people being homeless even though they actually do have enough money

to

have a house!   Think how much money you’d need to never work again.  Now delete all your housing and rental expenses from that.  Pretty big chunk, isn’t

it?

  And, hey, do you need a house?  The only difficult bit is sleeping rough and homeless people get used to that.  Beyond that, what would

you

like to do?  Watch TV?  Go in a pub.  Wash?  Supermarket washroom. Listen to music?  Go in the music store, or get a Walkman or MD Player – expensive, yep, but think how much you’re saving by not having to run a house!  Food?  Buy it.  Who cooks nowadays?  Computer? Go to the nearest cybercafe or public library.  Want to Travel?  You

can

go cheaper than anyone else, because you don’t have to come back.

When you put it that way, it does sound tempting indeed… Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <90gpa2$cu…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  Carolyn <carolyn_silverthr…@my-deja.com

wrote:

Computer?

Go to the nearest cybercafe or public library.  Want to Travel?  You can go cheaper than anyone else, because you don’t have to come back. When you put it that way, it does sound tempting indeed…

  Hmm.  Well, any time you’re tempted, come over to the UK at the moment and have a look out of the window on a night in December.  That’ll put you off. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Hmm.Well, any time you’re tempted, come over to the UK at the moment and have a look out of the window on a night in December.  That’ll put you off.

Actually, that temptation kinda involved the idea of moving to some place very very warm! Looking out of my window at the moment is pretty off-putting as well. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

The weird part was talking to some guy and he offered to drive me the 60 miles home because he "had nothing better to do." Plenty of times I’ve hitched rides home from gigs with strangers but something about this guy gave me the creeps so I respectfully declined. Later on I found a few missing posters on telephone poles of people last seen in the area.

Okay, now I’m beginning to be really worried about you. All this sounds awfully self-destructive, I mean, smoking pot, having an ex-convict (a murderer) for a neighbour, nearly hitching a ride with a potential maniac… Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <909g0t$65…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  Carolyn <carolyn_silverthr…@my-deja.com

wrote: The weird part was talking to some guy and he offered to drive me the 60 miles home because he "had nothing better to do." Plenty of times I’ve hitched rides home from gigs with strangers but something about this guy gave me the creeps so I respectfully declined. Later on I found a few missing posters on telephone poles of people last seen in the area. Okay, now I’m beginning to be really worried about you. All this sounds awfully self-destructive, I mean, smoking pot, having an ex-convict (a murderer) for a neighbour,

Actually if I thought I had friends I would consider him a good friend. I already knew him, knew he was an ex-con (just not what for) before I moved in. Basically I used to work with his wife. She heard I was desperately looking for an apartment close to work. He said I will help you move and give you $100 a month to use your garage. Besides how many neighbors have I had throughout the years who were murderers and I didnt know it? I party with him all the time he is a great guy. I love the stories he tells too, he has lots of them. Whats so bad about smoking pot? The difference between that and drinking is drinking is legal. But yes I do indulge in self destructive behavior. Sometimes it just seems like the thing to do. And I am about to have a major freak out if this piece of equipment I am working with right now doesn’t behave…

nearly hitching a ride with a potential maniac… Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <907fof$hj…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote:

Reminds me of when I once talked to a homeless person at length, which is kind of unusual, how often does the average person talk to a homeless person at length , but anyway I believe in treating the homeless human and had a conversation with this homeless guy (and probably gave him a buck or two .  And he said he was homeless by choice, that he probably could be otherwise, but it didn’t offer the same "freedom".  So he chose to be homeless. Ok one anecdote, one life, does not a statistic make – anyway. On the other hand I believe those statistics about jobs just begging for people and unemployment being so low – to be wildly over optimistic – in other words *not* reflective of reality. As for you – why do you want to be homeless?

I dont want to be homeless. I just don’t want to work anymore. Or pay bills. Or pay taxes.Or have to deal with people in any sort of official capacity. The end result of that sort of behavior for the non-wealthy is homelessness.

To paraphrase: "just what the world needs – one *more* *victim*". Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <907fof$hj…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote:

Reminds me of when I once talked to a homeless person at length, which is kind of unusual, how often does the average person talk to a homeless person at length , but anyway I believe in treating the homeless human and had a conversation with this homeless guy (and probably gave him a buck or two .  And he said he was homeless by choice, that he probably could be otherwise, but it didn’t offer the same "freedom".  So he chose to be homeless.

Thanks for taking the gesture to talk to the guy – it is all too easy to develop a ‘hardened heart’ and pretend such people don’t exist.  It is a very complex problem, it would be nice just to say that homeless people are victims beyond their circumstances, but there are bad personal choices that factor into these people being homeless. My roommate has his folks doing work in Yemen (south of Saudi Arabia) and there is a large homeless problem over there, much more so than in North America.  ’Beggars’ as they are called, often approach drivers at stop lights and ask for money.  A lot of these so-called beggars, however, take the money and use it for drug purchases, etc.  So the problem is, if you give the money to them, how do you know what they will use it for?  How do you know if they really need it? However, taking this back to home, one possible gesture of kindness is to simply approach these people and have a conversation, like a human being, like what you did.  Another idea, that my friend came up with, was to ‘be homeless’ for a night.  This involves going down to the streets and spending a night there with others, to get a more realistic picture of what the life is actually like. I’ve done things like hand out sandwiches, etc. but to be honest, my buddy’s idea is quite un-nerving.  On the other hand, it would be a real eye-opening experience to see what it’s like. Steve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

In article <909cqu$3q…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

  Steve R. <sr…@vcn.bc.ca

wrote:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <907fof$hj…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

>   1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: > > Reminds me of when I once talked to a homeless person at length, which

is kind of unusual, how often does the average person talk to a homeless person at length , but anyway I believe in treating the homeless human and had a conversation with this homeless guy

(and

probably gave him a buck or two .  And he said he was homeless by choice, that he probably could be otherwise, but it didn’t offer the same "freedom".  So he chose to be homeless. Thanks for taking the gesture to talk to the guy – it is all too easy

to

develop a ‘hardened heart’ and pretend such people don’t exist.  It

is a

very complex problem, it would be nice just to say that homeless

people

are victims beyond their circumstances, but there are bad personal choices that factor into these people being homeless. My roommate has his folks doing work in Yemen (south of Saudi Arabia) and there is a large homeless problem over there, much more so than in North America.  ’Beggars’ as they are called, often approach drivers

at

stop lights and ask for money.  A lot of these so-called beggars, however, take the money and use it for drug purchases, etc.  So the problem is, if you give the money to them, how do you know what they will use it for?  How do you know if they really need it? However, taking this back to home, one possible gesture of kindness is to simply approach these people and have a conversation, like a human being, like what you did.  Another idea, that my friend came up with, was to ‘be homeless’ for a night.  This involves going down to the streets and spending a night there with others, to get a more

realistic

picture of what the life is actually like.

I’ve spent plenty a night on the streets, but not hanging out eating out of the trash with the homeless but to do things like go out of town for a concert and being too broke or cheap to spring for a motel room and just wander around all night until I can catch a plane or train out of there. Also once I was to go far out of town for a concert with a friend but he flaked out on me so I went alone but there was no public transportation out of there after the show so I had to wander around all night because I didnt have money for a motel room so it was more like being homeless. I already bought the ticket and didnt want to eat it and really wanted to see the show so what the hell… The weird part was talking to some guy and he offered to drive me the 60 miles home because he "had nothing better to do." Plenty of times I’ve hitched rides home from gigs with strangers but something about this guy gave me the creeps so I respectfully declined. Later on I found a few missing posters on telephone poles of people last seen in the area.

I’ve done things like hand out sandwiches, etc. but to be honest, my buddy’s idea is quite un-nerving.  On the other hand, it would be a

real

eye-opening experience to see what it’s like. Steve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 23:39:10 GMT, Steve R. <sr…@vcn.bc.ca

wrote: In article <907fof$hj…@nnrp1.deja.com,  1womanscyberpers…@my-deja.com wrote: Reminds me of when I once talked to a homeless person at length, which is kind of unusual, how often does the average person talk to a homeless person at length , but anyway I believe in treating the homeless human and had a conversation with this homeless guy (and probably gave him a buck or two .  And he said he was homeless by choice, that he probably could be otherwise, but it didn’t offer the same "freedom".  So he chose to be homeless. Thanks for taking the gesture to talk to the guy – it is all too easy to develop a ‘hardened heart’ and pretend such people don’t exist.  It is a very complex problem, it would be nice just to say that homeless people are victims beyond their circumstances, but there are bad personal choices that factor into these people being homeless. My roommate has his folks doing work in Yemen (south of Saudi Arabia) and there is a large homeless problem over there, much more so than in North America.  ’Beggars’ as they are called, often approach drivers at stop lights and ask for money.  A lot of these so-called beggars, however, take the money and use it for drug purchases, etc.  So the problem is, if you give the money to them, how do you know what they will use it for?  How do you know if they really need it? However, taking this back to home, one possible gesture of kindness is to simply approach these people and have a conversation, like a human being, like what you did.  Another idea, that my friend came up with, was to ‘be homeless’ for a night.  This involves going down to the streets and spending a night there with others, to get a more realistic picture of what the life is actually like. I’ve done things like hand out sandwiches, etc. but to be honest, my buddy’s idea is quite un-nerving.  On the other hand, it would be a real eye-opening experience to see what it’s like.

We have that once a year in Sydney as an organised fundraiser. Hundreds of people (mostly kids) have a sleep out in the city and use it to raise funds for the homeless. They bring their sleeping bags along – of course for them it’s like a pyjama party, but it can’t do any harm.

Steve Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Gra-gra There is no way to happiness Happiness is the way (Thich Nhat Hanh)

Response:

Hmmmm… someone estimated that 2/3 of homeless people are homeless by choice? There may be a few people like that, but if it wasn’t for drug addicts and the mentally ill, there would be almost no homeless people. KC Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Reminds me of when I once talked to a homeless person at length, which is kind of unusual, how often does the average person talk to a homeless person at length , but anyway I believe in treating the homeless human and had a conversation with this homeless guy (and probably gave him a buck or two .  And he said he was homeless by choice, that he probably could be otherwise, but it didn’t offer the same "freedom".  So he chose to be homeless. Ok one anecdote, one life, does not a statistic make – anyway. On the other hand I believe those statistics about jobs just begging for people and unemployment being so low – to be wildly over optimistic – in other words *not* reflective of reality. As for you – why do you want to be homeless?  To paraphrase: "just what the world needs – one *more* *victim*". Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

If I didn’t have my little one to worrry about, that would be me.  I heartily believe that if it weren’t for her I’d be laughing at the people in suits scurrying around at tax time as well. For as long as I have her to keep me ground into the system, though, this is the way it will be. – k i t z – i’m your lover, i’m your zero i’m the face in your dreams of glass… http://home.talkcity.com/OceanBlvd/kitznegari                      

Response:

Any other people here feel in danger of dropping out of society all together? Its like this article is speaking directly to me and the growing possibility that I may end up on the streets Honest Talk This problem demands nothing less By Jill Stewart Wild Don Lewis Cherene Rucker (left) and Donna the Downtown Hostess outside the Central Library. With Thanksgiving here and a crisp chill in the air, my thoughts turn to Los Angeles’ estimated 200,000 homeless. But my thoughts are not in step with the usual theories and feelings about the homeless that polite society finds acceptable. The seemingly intractable problem of homelessness in this and every other American city was supposed to ease up during this historic economic boom. But nothing has changed; if anything, the homeless problem has grown. It doesn’t matter how many celebrities show up during the holidays to serve soup, or how many nonprofit, single-room-occupancy hotels get funded by the state and city, or how many hundreds of new drug treatment centers open because of the passage of Proposition 35. It doesn’t even matter that employers are begging able-bodied people to take the thousands of unfilled jobs in L.A. Just as I predicted several months ago, the 4.5 percent unemployment rate and the extreme shortage of workers is having no measurable effect on the city’s mass population of homeless. It’s time to shake off the middle-class guilt and talk about why. Yet I know of only a handful of people knowledgeable on this subject who are willing to honestly and publicly say why. In city hall, the most powerful people who understand the homeless problem will talk about why it has been impossible to make a dent, but only off the record. It is, one city hall elected leader told me, "seen as horribly uncharitable and politically disastrous to discuss the truth." And the truth is that the homeless, to a very large degree, simply do not want to reenter mainstream society. Virtually every homeless program on Skid Row and in Santa Monica, and virtually every homeless program funded by Los Angeles County, was designed by middle-class people with middle-class values. Underpinning virtually every one of these programs is the belief that the homeless want what the middle-class has: nine-to-five jobs, tax returns, a mortgage. Every program designed with mainstreaming in mind is attempting to serve a category of homeless people who I believe make up only a tiny slice of the actual homeless population. A significant number of the homeless reject the nine-to-five world, and the current economic boom has proved this with painful clarity. Another city hall leader who gets it, but can’t say it publicly for fear of being attacked as a heartless bastard, says: "I look at the homeless now, after all the years of efforts and all the programs that have come and gone, and I can almost see them laughing at the suits hurrying to their jobs. There is a defiance that is hard to understand, and maybe impossible to address. The bottom line is, many of them are choosing homelessness." God, what a heartless bastard! Ted Hayes, the director of the Dome Village homeless encampment two blocks from the Staples Center downtown, is reviled by many homeless advocates — white, middle-class people for the most part — because he insists on straight talk about the homeless, and it is not a pretty thing to hear. "People focus a lot of attention on the so-called mentally ill and pour a lot of mercy onto them," says Hayes. "But those supposedly one-third of the homeless are the easiest to reach with programs and can be the most easily manipulated into being helped. The problem is the other two- thirds, and honestly I believe the figure is much higher than two- thirds, who do not want to get a nine-to-five job, and they do not want the burden of paying rent and utilities." The fact that many of the homeless do not want to drop back into society is an ugly secret the homeless services industry will never cop to because it would put a major crimp in their fund-raising efforts, which are built upon a foundation of middle-class guilt. The media is equally complicit in hammering guilt into all of us and choking off serious debate. Journalists rarely quote the homeless who are not desperate to get their old lives back. That’s not the story they have been trained to find. Among the roughly 200,000 homeless in Los Angeles, it is not hard to find a quotable soul who says all the right things about being homeless. And find them, reporters always do. Check your local newspaper this week, and there will be a sad story about a man with incredibly bad luck, out on the streets, spiraling into alcoholism or addiction, desperate to get back to his middle-class or working-class reality. But why are there tens of thousands of people, mostly men, huddled in cardboard boxes while employers in L.A. County go begging for unskilled workers to fill long-open jobs? Jack Kyser, of the Economic Development Corporation, which tracks economic indicators in the L.A. region, says that thousands of jobs are going begging in the county. A severe shortage of both unskilled and skilled workers is to blame. "We are importing people here to fill the jobs, and still it is not enough," says Kyser. I have interviewed hundreds of the homeless over the years. They have included former radio disc jockeys, construction workers, teachers, day laborers, union members, mothers, runaway teens, and even a few intellectuals. Like the rest of my brethren, when I came upon a homeless person who did not have a tangled and tragic story to tell, my notebook remained closed and I moved on until I found one who did. I did not realize, in those years, what a disservice I was doing. The homeless problem will grow as long as the middle-class types who have controlled the debate for years continue to repress all chance of honest — if painful — discussion. This is an area rife with guilt tripping and tongue clucking. How imbedded in our culture is the guilt tripping? Can we really shake it off? Maybe not. I recently commented in public that the police believe the homeless are the victims of crime — not usually the perpetrators of crime — in large part because they are drunk, high, or incapacitated. In essence, they make perfect victims. My comments, distilled down to the quote that "the homeless are too drunk to commit crimes," caused one Democratic party operative to become almost apoplectic with outrage. How dare anyone speak ill of the sainted and faultless homeless? Yet, as Hayes points out, "They don’t want to be like those well- meaning liberals. If they know you, most of the homeless will admit to you they’d rather do their hustle instead. A friend of mine tells me, "I don’t read a newspaper, listen to radio, or watch TV. Just leave me alone, because I have had it with that world.’" Worse than the well-meaning liberals are the homeless-program operators, in Hayes’ view. "I know people who have been through every homeless mission program three, four, five times. The mission people know this, the city hall funders know this. They know it’s a game for most of them." Hayes has pleaded with city leaders to hold a homeless summit to pursue bold new ideas. He argues that society should provide the homeless with a base level of sanitary living and dignity while giving up on the idea of mainstreaming them back into traditional jobs and apartments. He has asked Mayor Richard Riordan, Police Chief Bernard Parks, Sheriff Lee Baca, and other leaders to come together for a summit. Although Baca is said to be open to the idea, Riordan and Parks have ignored the proposal. Sadly, city hall is doing almost the opposite of holding a summit to explore new approaches. Instead, a huge area of downtown has been essentially declared off-limits to the homeless. The LAPD, under pressure from city hall and downtown business leaders, is trying to herd the homeless on Skid Row east of downtown. And the Row, of course, is bristling with largely ineffective programs based on the paradigm of mainstreaming the homeless into jobs and apartments. In defiance of the "containment policy" to push the homeless east of Los Angeles Street and well away from Bunker Hill, Hayes and a dozen or so homeless have been sleeping on the sidewalks in tony areas of downtown.They hope to publicize what they see as the wrongful use of selective laws to force the homeless away from areas bustling with well- groomed business people. "It’s a horrible idea to concentrate the homeless, putting all this pressure on the building owners and businesses in Skid Row and creating a health hazard," says Hayes. "There aren’t public restrooms, so people urinate and defecate in the streets, then they sleep in it, they get on buses and track it all over town." For a few weeks, the activist group slept at the main entrance to the beautiful Central Library, where diners at the classy McCormick & Schmick restaurant could peer down upon them. Now, the group has moved even deeper into suit territory, by camping next to the Bonaventure Hotel directly underneath the 4th Street overpass. Not surprisingly, the media has glossed over their message. The activists don’t just want to stop the pressure on the homeless to move eastward. They want a new discussion about homelessness to begin. Los Angeles is a city that has shown the courage to try new things. Someday, I hope this city will show some courage by honestly exploring the intractable problem of homelessness. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

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Question:

Hi there! Can anyone tell me what the difference is with regards to drug laws and prescriptions between the UK and USA. As a resident of the UK I get the impression that patients in the USA are able to freely choose their products and drugs as there seem to be a lot of people who are "deciding whether or not" to go on certain treatments. Are you US guys simply able to just ask for Accutane or something and away you go. I am interested because of all the stories I hear about people on low dose long term Accutane programmes who us the stuff as if it were an antibiotic. If you are happy to pay for it will a derm in the US prescribe it. Thanks for any responses in advance. Sid

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Sid- I can’t tell you the difference between our and your drug laws if there are indeed any. My guess is that there isn’t.   For some, getting on Accutane might be just a matter of requesting it with their derms.  For me, it hasn’t been so easy.  Some derms here flat out refuse to prescribe it.  Others are somewhat reluctant unless the acne is severe or proves unaffected by other treatments.  And still others have a very liberal attitude about Accutane. So, no.  Patients in the US are not able to choose for themselves what kind of medication they want. Sometimes we are lucky that what we desire to be put on is the same thing the doctor has in mind, but the medications we take are very much controlled and decided upon by our doctors.   Speaking for myself, I often use the language "I have decided to go on.." not because I can go and demand it from my doctor, but because if it’s really important to me, I know that I can find some doctor some where who will prescribe it.   Hope that answered it for ya.

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We perhaps have more "freedom" because (at this date, anyway) don’t have socialized medicine (we have HMO’s, PPO’s, medicare and medicaid, which all can seem pretty tyrannical when we’re having to fight them for a mere 10% for a medical treatment;=)  I don’t know how the prescription medication regulations in your country work, but for us, as Sid mentioned, it’s mostly just managing to locate a doctor who is willing to work with you.  Given the scores of people who enter drug-treatment centers and rehab programs for addiction to prescription medication, I would say that we probably have more freedom to *look for* and *hope* of finding that doctor if we are determined enough to keep looking for him/her. The problem specific to the posters on this NG has to do with why some doctors treat Accutane as if it were 100% fatal (these same doctors, mind you, will inject Botox into the wrinkles on your forehead) or as if it were a valuable, limited resource that should be distributed only to the very few.  The problem seems to be primarily with the younger posters (in their teens and early 20’s.)  They’re "kids," they are for the most part patronized and don’t really have any recourse other than their parents and their parents’ insurance.  I sometimes wonder if the doctors who continue to put them off are secretly waiting to see if the kid will "grow out of it."  I find that abominably cruel and unnecessary, particularly when you are talking about a child who has acne so bad it’s literally disfiguring.  If it were a young burn victim, or an abuse victim, the response would be completely different.  Why treat acne victims any differently?  I do know that my own kids are genetically almost guaranteed to have some degree of acne, and I will fight tooth and nail for them to get the treatment that they need. I’ve babbled enough.    kat

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Question:

Dax, I gave that example because it was how I felt for what happened.  But, if you are asking for my experience with the issue of finances and caring, here you go: 2 years ago, I moved from Florida to British Columbia- 4500 miles away.  I just got married, he is from Canada and has been living here.  I am now 26, but 24 at the time of my move.  I just received my BSW and certification in gerontology and all set to work at an Alzheimer agency in Florida.  I chose to move because I wanted to be with my husband (fianc

Question:

I am new to this group. I would like to know if anyone knows of a drug abuse rehabilitation/treatment center in Central or Southeast Missouri, Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky, Western Tennessee, or Northeastern Arkansas? I would appreciate any information anyone has about such places.

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Check out the Internet web site for D.A.R.N. (Drug and Alcohol Recovery Network), which is a directory of drug and alcohol rehab programs and centers all over the country. The web URL is http://www.darnweb.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to this group. I would like to know if anyone knows of a drug abuse rehabilitation/treatment center in Central or Southeast Missouri, Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky, Western Tennessee, or Northeastern Arkansas? I would appreciate any information anyone has about such places.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –          |      Promote A 5% Wealth Tax       |          | On Top 10% Of American Households. |         This 5% Wealth Tax Yields $1,000 Billion! | A $1,000 Billion Easily Solves The Following Problems:   | |        Homelessness,                      $ 560 Billion  | |        School Deterioration,                120    "     | |        Lack Of School Technology,           100    "     | |        Rail And Road Deterioration,         120    "     | |        Lack Of Drug Treatment Centers,       50    "     | |        Lack Of Job Training                  50    "     | |                               Total    = $1,000 Billion  |      Congress Currently Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending. Organize Swiftly By Being At Least A Connector To 10 Others.    | Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise. |    |                                                   |    | Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Will Be United |    |      To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.         |                  We Can Make America             Again A Showcase For The World          With Only A Wealth, Sin And Sales Tax.  |      If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax        |  |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall, Then   |  | In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will.|             A 5% Wealth Tax Promotes Savings           In 30 Year U.S. Bonds At 7% Interest                To Pay For The Wealth Tax         And Simpler Sounder Living For The Wealthy.    Facts On Wealth Of the Top 20% Of American Households                                      Amount In 7%  Free Households  Wealth Needed  5% Tax    Bond For Tax  Wealth Top   1%    $2.4 Million   $120,000  $1.7 Million  $700,000 Next  9%    $360,000       $ 18,000  $260,000      $100,000 Next 10%    $110,000          none Households  Free Wealth  Interest Earned On 7% Top   1%    $700,000     $49,000 / Year Top  10%    $100,000       7,000 / Year   (Tax on $360,000) Top  10% +  $340,000      24,000 / Year   (No Wealth Tax)  The hard working minimum wage worker earns $10,000 a year,    while the person with $340,000 can earn $24,000 a year         without working and without a wealth tax.   | Make copies of this free leaflet (or write your own) |   |       to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.       |   |         Be 1 of my 10 or start a new center.         | —

G

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         |      Promote A 5% Wealth Tax       |          | On Top 10% Of American Households. |         This 5% Wealth Tax Yields $1,000 Billion! | A $1,000 Billion Easily Solves The Following Problems:   | |        Homelessness,                      $ 560 Billion  | |        School Deterioration,                120    "     | |        Lack Of School Technology,           100    "     | |        Rail And Road Deterioration,         120    "     | |        Lack Of Drug Treatment Centers,       50    "     | |        Lack Of Job Training                  50    "     | |                               Total    = $1,000 Billion  |      Congress Currently Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending. Organize Swiftly By Being At Least A Connector To 10 Others.    | Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise. |    |                                                   |    | Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Will Be United |    |      To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.         |                  We Can Make America             Again A Showcase For The World          With Only A Wealth, Sin And Sales Tax.  |      If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax        |  |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall, Then   |  | In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will.|             A 5% Wealth Tax Promotes Savings           In 30 Year U.S. Bonds At 7% Interest                To Pay For The Wealth Tax         And Simpler Sounder Living For The Wealthy.    Facts On Wealth Of the Top 20% Of American Households                                      Amount In 7%  Free Households  Wealth Needed  5% Tax    Bond For Tax  Wealth Top   1%    $2.4 Million   $120,000  $1.7 Million  $700,000 Next  9%    $360,000       $ 18,000  $260,000      $100,000 Next 10%    $110,000          none Households  Free Wealth  Interest Earned On 7% Top   1%    $700,000     $49,000 / Year Top  10%    $100,000       7,000 / Year   (Tax on $360,000) Top  10% +  $340,000      24,000 / Year   (No Wealth Tax)  The hard working minimum wage worker earns $10,000 a year,    while the person with $340,000 can earn $24,000 a year           without working and without a wealth tax.   | Make copies of this free leaflet (or write your own) |   |       to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.       |   |         Be 1 of my 10 or start a new center.         | —

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends, :        relatives, neighbors and contacts. : |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | : |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           | :        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! : | $1,000 Billion Could Solve The Following Problems:       |

So your plan is to simply GIVE the homeless the money???  Can I have some too???  I mean, since no one should have to work for it.  Let’s all let the rich support us.  Raise your hand if you want to be one of the rich and help support everyone else. : |        Lack Of Needed School Technology…..100    "     | :       Congress In 1997 Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, : And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending.

Congress has ONLY 500 billion to spend???  The budget is way over $1 trillion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : |     We Can Organize Swiftly By Just Getting 10 People.   | : |  If We Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise, | : |    Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Would Be United    | : |         To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.             | :      Create Your Own 1-10-100 Peace Network This Week :     To Tax Wealth For Rebuilding America And Retraining :    All People To Be Productive And Constructive Citizens. : |        If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax         | : |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall Of 1997,   | : |Then In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will| :               Wealth Of American Households :     |  American  | Estimated Wealth |  Wealth Needed   | :     | Households | ($1000 Billions) | For Membership   | :     |            |  (or trillions)  |    in 1992       | :     | Top     1% |   $11       44%  | Above $2,400,000 | :     | Next    9% |   $ 9       36%  | Above $  355,000 | :     | Next   10% |   $ 3       12%  | Above $  110,000*| :     | Bottom 80% |   $ 2        8%  | Below $  110,000*| :     |  Total     |   $25      100%  |     * 1989 data  | :       For more information on wealth inequality, enter into a : Web search engine the name (in quotes): "Edward N. Wolff".

Is that W-O-L-F-F as in ’sheeps clothing’ :       According to Dr. Wolff, a professor of economics at NYU : and managing editor of the quarterly journal, "Review of : Income and Wealth", total household wealth was $9 trillion : in 1983 and $15 trillion in 1989.  Extrapolation of this : data would put total wealth in 1997 at $23 trillion. :   We Also Need To Pay Off Our $5,400 Billion National Debt :    That Cost U.S. Taxpayers Almost $300 Billion Each Year. :     Half The Wealth Of The Top 1% Is $5,500 Billion Which :      Is More Than Enough To Pay Off Our National Debt.

Congress’ overspending caused the problem, let’s let the private citizen solve the problem.   : |     The Poorest Members Of This Millionaires Group       | : |            If They Lost Half Their Wealth                | : |    Could Still Have Left Wealth Worth $1.2 Million.      | : |These Millionaires Could Earn $84,000 A Year Without Work | : |     By Investing Their $1.2 Million Remaining Wealth     | : |         In A 30 Year U.S. Bond At 7% Interest.           | : |  Half Of American Workers Earn Less Than $28,000 A Year. |

Let me get this straight.  If I had $2.4 million, the government could take $1.2 million, and I could earn $84,000 a year.  Why not simply say, ‘Give us $1.2 million and get back $84,000.’  What a deal. How about I keep my $2.4 mil. and earn $168,000 a year which I could invest in JOBS. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :        After A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% This Fall :       And A 50% Wealth Tax On The Top 1% Over 3 Years :                 A Third Important Issue Is: :   To Replace All Taxes With A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% :      And A Sales Or V.A.T Tax From 10 to 20% (As Needed) :    On Almost $9,000 Billion Of Consumer Goods Sold Yearly :        To Run All Federal, State And City Governments. : | Give copies of this free leaflet (or do it your own way) | : | to get 10 People to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.| : |        Be 1 of my 10 people or start a new center.       | : — —

Why is it so hard for some people to keep there stupid post out of the faces of others?

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: Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends, :        relatives, neighbors and contacts. : |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | : |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           | :        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! : | $1,000 Billion Could Solve The Following Problems:       | : |        Lack Of Needed School Technology…..100    "     | :       Congress In 1997 Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, : And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending. : |     We Can Organize Swiftly By Just Getting 10 People.   | : |  If We Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise, | : |    Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Would Be United    | : |         To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.             | :      Create Your Own 1-10-100 Peace Network This Week :     To Tax Wealth For Rebuilding America And Retraining :    All People To Be Productive And Constructive Citizens. : |        If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax         | : |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall Of 1997,   | : |Then In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will| :               Wealth Of American Households :     |  American  | Estimated Wealth |  Wealth Needed   | :     | Households | ($1000 Billions) | For Membership   | :     |            |  (or trillions)  |    in 1992       | :     | Top     1% |   $11       44%  | Above $2,400,000 | :     | Next    9% |   $ 9       36%  | Above $  355,000 | :     | Next   10% |   $ 3       12%  | Above $  110,000*| :     | Bottom 80% |   $ 2        8%  | Below $  110,000*| :     |  Total     |   $25      100%  |     * 1989 data  | :       For more information on wealth inequality, enter into a : Web search engine the name (in quotes): "Edward N. Wolff". :       According to Dr. Wolff, a professor of economics at NYU : and managing editor of the quarterly journal, "Review of : Income and Wealth", total household wealth was $9 trillion : in 1983 and $15 trillion in 1989.  Extrapolation of this : data would put total wealth in 1997 at $23 trillion. :   We Also Need To Pay Off Our $5,400 Billion National Debt :    That Cost U.S. Taxpayers Almost $300 Billion Each Year. :     Half The Wealth Of The Top 1% Is $5,500 Billion Which   :      Is More Than Enough To Pay Off Our National Debt. : |     The Poorest Members Of This Millionaires Group       | : |            If They Lost Half Their Wealth                | : |    Could Still Have Left Wealth Worth $1.2 Million.      | : |These Millionaires Could Earn $84,000 A Year Without Work | : |     By Investing Their $1.2 Million Remaining Wealth     | : |         In A 30 Year U.S. Bond At 7% Interest.           | : |  Half Of American Workers Earn Less Than $28,000 A Year. | :        After A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% This Fall :       And A 50% Wealth Tax On The Top 1% Over 3 Years :                 A Third Important Issue Is: :   To Replace All Taxes With A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% :      And A Sales Or V.A.T Tax From 10 to 20% (As Needed) :    On Almost $9,000 Billion Of Consumer Goods Sold Yearly :        To Run All Federal, State And City Governments. : | Give copies of this free leaflet (or do it your own way) | : | to get 10 People to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.| : |        Be 1 of my 10 people or start a new center.       | : — —

Response:

Lighten up Dean.

Fuck off, Lou.  You come and cross post to our group, expect some flack. If you can’t see that, stop looking up your own arse. Dean OAotDotHCPHR —       Pave[tm] Resource Base <URL:http://www.deanie.demon.co.uk/pave/                 CommUnity <URL:http://www.community.org.uk/       "You’re now in apte, where we will run across you." – Max Natzet

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends, :        relatives, neighbors and contacts. : |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | : |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           | :        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! : | $1,000 Billion Could Solve The Following Problems:       | : |        Lack Of Needed School Technology…..100    "     | :       Congress In 1997 Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, : And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending. : |     We Can Organize Swiftly By Just Getting 10 People.   | : |  If We Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise, | : |    Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Would Be United    | : |         To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.             | :      Create Your Own 1-10-100 Peace Network This Week :     To Tax Wealth For Rebuilding America And Retraining :    All People To Be Productive And Constructive Citizens. : |        If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax         | : |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall Of 1997,   | : |Then In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will| :               Wealth Of American Households :     |  American  | Estimated Wealth |  Wealth Needed   | :     | Households | ($1000 Billions) | For Membership   | :     |            |  (or trillions)  |    in 1992       | :     | Top     1% |   $11       44%  | Above $2,400,000 | :     | Next    9% |   $ 9       36%  | Above $  355,000 | :     | Next   10% |   $ 3       12%  | Above $  110,000*| :     | Bottom 80% |   $ 2        8%  | Below $  110,000*| :     |  Total     |   $25      100%  |     * 1989 data  | :       For more information on wealth inequality, enter into a : Web search engine the name (in quotes): "Edward N. Wolff". :       According to Dr. Wolff, a professor of economics at NYU : and managing editor of the quarterly journal, "Review of : Income and Wealth", total household wealth was $9 trillion : in 1983 and $15 trillion in 1989.  Extrapolation of this : data would put total wealth in 1997 at $23 trillion. :   We Also Need To Pay Off Our $5,400 Billion National Debt :    That Cost U.S. Taxpayers Almost $300 Billion Each Year. :     Half The Wealth Of The Top 1% Is $5,500 Billion Which :      Is More Than Enough To Pay Off Our National Debt. : |     The Poorest Members Of This Millionaires Group       | : |            If They Lost Half Their Wealth                | : |    Could Still Have Left Wealth Worth $1.2 Million.      | : |These Millionaires Could Earn $84,000 A Year Without Work | : |     By Investing Their $1.2 Million Remaining Wealth     | : |         In A 30 Year U.S. Bond At 7% Interest.           | : |  Half Of American Workers Earn Less Than $28,000 A Year. | :        After A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% This Fall :       And A 50% Wealth Tax On The Top 1% Over 3 Years :                 A Third Important Issue Is: :   To Replace All Taxes With A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% :      And A Sales Or V.A.T Tax From 10 to 20% (As Needed) :    On Almost $9,000 Billion Of Consumer Goods Sold Yearly :        To Run All Federal, State And City Governments. : | Give copies of this free leaflet (or do it your own way) | : | to get 10 People to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.| : |        Be 1 of my 10 people or start a new center.       | : — — Why is it so hard for some people to keep there hands out of the pocketbooks of others.<<<<<<<<<<<

Response:

with: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends,        relatives, neighbors and contacts. |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           |        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! We’ve already gone down this route to the tune of $3 trillion. Yup – $3 trillion. Looking at our inner cities, that $3,000,000,000,000 doesn’t appear to have done any good. Do you think youcould explain what you are talking about? $3 trillion?  Inner cities?

I think he wants to redistribute income up to wealthy. — woof – so I don’t get any more SPAM!!!

Spiro Agnew photo gallery http://www.concentric.net/~Kuru4u/

Response:

Tell ya what: I urge everyone who demands income re-distribution to fork over at least another 25% of their paycheck to Uncle Scam. Donate it to the caring, wise, efficient Federal Government. We all know how crucial and efficient bureaucrats are. Let them spend your money. Ease your conscience and feel better about yourself. And do without life’s luxuries. Do you really need your computer? Sell it, give the proceeds to the needy. You know how many poor kids that $19.95/mo you pay to your ISP could feed?

I urge anyone who crossposts pointless crap to be staked out on a large motorway, so that we can get in lots of roadkill practise. Boy, take it elsewhere. Dean OAotDotHCPHR —       Pave[tm] Resource Base <URL:http://www.deanie.demon.co.uk/pave/                 CommUnity <URL:http://www.community.org.uk/       "You’re now in apte, where we will run across you." – Max Natzet

Response:

Note:         Below the dashed line below is a letter for friends, relatives and contacts.  This letter is designed to be sent along with the organizing leaflet below it that promotes a 5% wealth tax on top 10% of American.         Try the letter and leaflet below on 3 people to see their response.  With the leaflet we can end homelessness forever, put a computer on each students desk in school and at home, and offer needed high quality job training to all.         Next is the letter for friends and others.            To make this letter easy to replicate,              our names are only on the envelope.                    Monday,      , 1997 Dear        ,         Enclosed is an updated leaflet to promote a wealth tax on the richest Americans.         As explained in this leaflet, I hope you will join me in promoting this wealth tax.         I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on this matter, and look forward to your reply.                                                 Yours respectfully, P.S.  If you send the enclosed leaflet to others, then this       letter form should be included.  

: Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends, :        relatives, neighbors and contacts. : |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | : |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           | :        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! : | $1,000 Billion Could Solve The Following Problems:       | : |        Lack Of Needed School Technology…..100    "     | :       Congress In 1997 Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, : And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending. : |     We Can Organize Swiftly By Just Getting 10 People.   | : |  If We Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise, | : |    Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Would Be United    | : |         To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.             | :      Create Your Own 1-10-100 Peace Network This Week :     To Tax Wealth For Rebuilding America And Retraining :    All People To Be Productive And Constructive Citizens. : |        If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax         | : |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall Of 1997,   | : |Then In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will| :               Wealth Of American Households :     |  American  | Estimated Wealth |  Wealth Needed   | :     | Households | ($1000 Billions) | For Membership   | :     |            |  (or trillions)  |    in 1992       | :     | Top     1% |   $11       44%  | Above $2,400,000 | :     | Next    9% |   $ 9       36%  | Above $  355,000 | :     | Next   10% |   $ 3       12%  | Above $  110,000*| :     | Bottom 80% |   $ 2        8%  | Below $  110,000*| :     |  Total     |   $25      100%  |     * 1989 data  | :       For more information on wealth inequality, enter into a : Web search engine the name (in quotes): "Edward N. Wolff". :       According to Dr. Wolff, a professor of economics at NYU : and managing editor of the quarterly journal, "Review of : Income and Wealth", total household wealth was $9 trillion : in 1983 and $15 trillion in 1989.  Extrapolation of this : data would put total wealth in 1997 at $23 trillion. :   We Also Need To Pay Off Our $5,400 Billion National Debt :    That Cost U.S. Taxpayers Almost $300 Billion Each Year. :     Half The Wealth Of The Top 1% Is $5,500 Billion Which   :      Is More Than Enough To Pay Off Our National Debt. : |     The Poorest Members Of This Millionaires Group       | : |            If They Lost Half Their Wealth                | : |    Could Still Have Left Wealth Worth $1.2 Million.      | : |These Millionaires Could Earn $84,000 A Year Without Work | : |     By Investing Their $1.2 Million Remaining Wealth     | : |         In A 30 Year U.S. Bond At 7% Interest.           | : |  Half Of American Workers Earn Less Than $28,000 A Year. | :        After A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% This Fall :       And A 50% Wealth Tax On The Top 1% Over 3 Years :                 A Third Important Issue Is: :   To Replace All Taxes With A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% :      And A Sales Or V.A.T Tax From 10 to 20% (As Needed) :    On Almost $9,000 Billion Of Consumer Goods Sold Yearly :        To Run All Federal, State And City Governments. : | Give copies of this free leaflet (or do it your own way) | : | to get 10 People to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.| : |        Be 1 of my 10 people or start a new center.       | : — —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends,        relatives, neighbors and contacts. |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           |        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! We’ve already gone down this route to the tune of $3 trillion. Yup – $3 trillion. Looking at our inner cities, that $3,000,000,000,000 doesn’t appear to have done any good.

Do you think youcould explain what you are talking about? $3 trillion?  Inner cities? — woof – so I don’t get any more SPAM!!!

Response:

Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends,        relatives, neighbors and contacts. |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           |        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion!

We’ve already gone down this route to the tune of $3 trillion. Yup – $3 trillion. Looking at our inner cities, that $3,000,000,000,000 doesn’t appear to have done any good. Tell ya what: I urge everyone who demands income re-distribution to fork over at least another 25% of their paycheck to Uncle Scam. Donate it to the caring, wise, efficient Federal Government. We all know how crucial and efficient bureaucrats are. Let them spend your money. Ease your conscience and feel better about yourself. And do without life’s luxuries. Do you really need your computer? Sell it, give the proceeds to the needy. You know how many poor kids that $19.95/mo you pay to your ISP could feed? — The new New Age Wackos! http://www.concentric.net/~Slaroche/NEWAGE.HTM (By sending me unsolicited commercial email, you agree to the Terms and Conditions as listed here: http://www.concentric.net/~Slaroche/SPAM.HTM)

Response:

Note:  Below is an organizing leaflet to give to friends,        relatives, neighbors and contacts. |           Should We Promote A 5% Wealth Tax              | |         On The Top 10% Of American Households?           |        A 5% Wealth Tax Yields About $1,000 Billion! | $1,000 Billion Could Solve The Following Problems:       | |        Lack Of Needed School Technology…..100    "     |       Congress In 1997 Has Only $500 Billion To Spend, And More Than Half Of This Money Goes For Military Spending. |     We Can Organize Swiftly By Just Getting 10 People.   | |  If We Get 10 New People In A Week Who Each Do Likewise, | |    Then In 8 Weeks 100 Million People Would Be United    | |         To Ask Congress For A 5% Wealth Tax.             |      Create Your Own 1-10-100 Peace Network This Week     To Tax Wealth For Rebuilding America And Retraining    All People To Be Productive And Constructive Citizens. |        If Congress Fails To Pass A 5% Wealth Tax         | |   On Top 10% Of American Households This Fall Of 1997,   | |Then In 1998 We Can Replace Congress With Members Who Will|               Wealth Of American Households     |  American  | Estimated Wealth |  Wealth Needed   |     | Households | ($1000 Billions) | For Membership   |     |            |  (or trillions)  |    in 1992       |     | Top     1% |   $11       44%  | Above $2,400,000 |     | Next    9% |   $ 9       36%  | Above $  355,000 |     | Next   10% |   $ 3       12%  | Above $  110,000*|     | Bottom 80% |   $ 2        8%  | Below $  110,000*|     |  Total     |   $25      100%  |     * 1989 data  |         For more information on wealth inequality, enter into a Web search engine the name (in quotes): "Edward N. Wolff".         According to Dr. Wolff, a professor of economics at NYU and managing editor of the quarterly journal, "Review of Income and Wealth", total household wealth was $9 trillion in 1983 and $15 trillion in 1989.  Extrapolation of this data would put total wealth in 1997 at $23 trillion.   We Also Need To Pay Off Our $5,400 Billion National Debt    That Cost U.S. Taxpayers Almost $300 Billion Each Year.     Half The Wealth Of The Top 1% Is $5,500 Billion Which        Is More Than Enough To Pay Off Our National Debt. |     The Poorest Members Of This Millionaires Group       | |            If They Lost Half Their Wealth                | |    Could Still Have Left Wealth Worth $1.2 Million.      | |These Millionaires Could Earn $84,000 A Year Without Work | |     By Investing Their $1.2 Million Remaining Wealth     | |         In A 30 Year U.S. Bond At 7% Interest.           | |  Half Of American Workers Earn Less Than $28,000 A Year. |        After A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10% This Fall       And A 50% Wealth Tax On The Top 1% Over 3 Years                 A Third Important Issue Is:   To Replace All Taxes With A 5% Wealth Tax On The Top 10%      And A Sales Or V.A.T Tax From 10 to 20% (As Needed)    On Almost $9,000 Billion Of Consumer Goods Sold Yearly        To Run All Federal, State And City Governments. | Give copies of this free leaflet (or do it your own way) | | to get 10 People to create a 1-10-100 wealth tax network.| |        Be 1 of my 10 people or start a new center.       | —

Response:

Question:

:    You simply do not know what you are talking about.  That’s okay– : igorance can be cured.  Simply look in a phonebook (your local : yellowpages) for an medical alcohol treatment program near you, and : call them.  Ask if they have anybody on long term benzodiazepines. : Feel free to post details here.  It’ll be educational for you. :                                       Steve Harris, M.D. Steve, why don’t you post where your office is located, what city it’s in, what hours you keep, what fees you charge.  Are you telling us that someone can just come in with a little alcohol on their breath (easy to arrange), ask for Valium and get it?  Will you write the blue ones or do you charge extra for them?  How many refills do you give? If we "lose" the prescription on the way to the pharmacy (cause we’re too drunk) will you write use another one?   Hey, all I think the town Dr. Feelgood has arrived!!!  

Response:

:    You simply do not know what you are talking about.  That’s okay– : igorance can be cured.   :                                       Steve Harris, M.D. Hey, all I think the town Dr. Feelgood has arrived!!!

Just Imagine.  A Chiropractor coming to Steve’s defense! I have seen a great many lives destroyed by alcohol; very few by diazapenes.  If a better approach is available, Wonderful; let’s embrace it.  In the mean time those who object to diazapenes can take valerian. And lighten up on Steve.  He’s been very articulate of late. Don C. Royal DC

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Randall) writes: :    You simply do not know what you are talking about.  That’s okay– : igorance can be cured.  Simply look in a phonebook (your local : yellowpages) for an medical alcohol treatment program near you, and : call them.  Ask if they have anybody on long term benzodiazepines. : Feel free to post details here.  It’ll be educational for you. :                                       Steve Harris, M.D. Steve, why don’t you post where your office is located, what city it’s in, what hours you keep, what fees you charge.  Are you telling us that someone can just come in with a little alcohol on their breath (easy to arrange), ask for Valium and get it?

    No, asshole.  Suggest you read those messages again.                                   Steve Harris, M.D.  Will you write the blue ones or do – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -you charge extra for them?  How many refills do you give? If we "lose" the prescription on the way to the pharmacy (cause we’re too drunk) will you write use another one?   Hey, all I think the town Dr. Feelgood has arrived!!!  

Response:

: Very like : a methadone maintainance program. : Is that true? Are there really ‘maintenance’ programs? Or don’t they : typically substitute and titrate down? (I realize maintenance is a : theoretical option, but I’ve never heard of this actually being used in : treating alcoholism.) Is methadone really of any benefit in treating alcoholism?  I pretty much thought it was only useful for opiate addiction.  In fact, isn’t its use by law restricted to treating opiate addiction, and only in federally approved drug treatment centers?

Response:

: Very like : a methadone maintainance program. : Is that true? Are there really ‘maintenance’ programs? Or don’t they : typically substitute and titrate down? (I realize maintenance is a : theoretical option, but I’ve never heard of this actually being used in : treating alcoholism.) Is methadone really of any benefit in treating alcoholism?  I pretty much thought it was only useful for opiate addiction.  In fact, isn’t its use by law restricted to treating opiate addiction, and only in federally approved drug treatment centers?

I meant, is there such a thing as benzodiazepine maintenance for alcoholics, analogous to methadone maintenance for narcotic addicts. Please… —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Randall) writes: : Most people would agree that it’s generally not good to give : Xanax to someone with a history of drug or alcohol dependence. :    There’s NO truth in that.  Benzodiazepines are the mainstays of : getting people off alcohol in just about every medical treatment : program there is…. I’d like to do a little survey of doctors here.  Suppose a patient comes in and shows signs of being an alcohol abuser.   Like having an enlarged liver, abnormal liver tests, you confront the patient and they admit they drink "a little too much".   How many of you would write them an Rx for 100 Valiums with 3 or 4 refills, tell them "these’ll help you stop drinking", then show them the door.  I’m talking about today, not 25 years ago.  I can’t think that too many doctors would do this, but maybe I’m wrong.

   Of course it would not be done like that.  If the physician is not comfortable treating alcoholism, he’ll refer to a treatment clinic, where they very well might prescribe Ativan or Xanax in limited amounts, with close followup as part of an over all program.  Very like a methadone maintainance program.  Which is different than giving a heroin addict a scrip for lots of refills of a random narcotic and saying "see you later."   Your parody of what actually happens in no way means that you know what actually happens.                                              Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

   Of course it would not be done like that.  If the physician is not comfortable treating alcoholism, he’ll refer to a treatment clinic, where they very well might prescribe Ativan or Xanax in limited amounts, with close followup as part of an over all program.

Ativan or Xanax? More likely something longer acting, like diazepam or chlordiazepoxide, or phenobarbital. IIRC. Very like a methadone maintainance program.

Is that true? Are there really ‘maintenance’ programs? Or don’t they typically substitute and titrate down? (I realize maintenance is a theoretical option, but I’ve never heard of this actually being used in treating alcoholism.) —

Response:

Which is different than giving a heroin addict a scrip for lots of refills of a random narcotic and saying "see you later."  

how about a script for a maintenance dose with no refills and timely follow- up visits?  is this not cost effective in addition to being supportive and nonjudgemental of the addict?  why not treat  his/her condition from a purely medical stanpoint and sidestep any legal/personal issues and feelings about certain drugs? i don’t get it.  why discard human beings, why allow the machinations of greed and amerikan politics to relegate them to a life of crime for a medical, physiological, treatable condition?  everyone has something to offer, and we are all only human. everyone makes mistakes, we all get into situations that can be too deep, too much to handle.  i thought that’s what professionals were for.   (oh hell, i’m showing my optimism and naivite again) durt                                                              for original anarchist art                                    designed for the mind AIDS awareness, corporeal freedom…live from the digital forest http://members.aol.com/durtro/mainmap.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Most people would agree that it’s generally not good to give : Xanax to someone with a history of drug or alcohol dependence. :    There’s NO truth in that.  Benzodiazepines are the mainstays of : getting people off alcohol in just about every medical treatment : program there is.  It’s certainly hard (sometimes as hard) to get : people off benzodiazepines, but at least they don’t rot your brain and : liver and make you violent…. True, benzos are used (and properly so) in acute alcohol detox for several days.  That was not what I was referring to. I’m not disagreeing that long-term benzo use poses less health risks than alcohol use, either.  What I was saying was that hardly anyone is going to prescribe them, for routine, regular use, for someone with a suspected alcohol problem.  In fact in today’s era of DEA scrutiny, it’s pretty rare that anyone is going to get Rx’s for these drugs on a regular basis, alcoholic or not.

   You simply do not know what you are talking about.  That’s okay– igorance can be cured.  Simply look in a phonebook (your local yellowpages) for an medical alcohol treatment program near you, and call them.  Ask if they have anybody on long term benzodiazepines. Feel free to post details here.  It’ll be educational for you.                                       Steve Harris, M.D.

Response:

Randall) writes: I’d like to do a little survey of doctors here.  Suppose a patient comes in and shows signs of being an alcohol abuser.   Like having an enlarged liver, abnormal liver tests, you confront the patient and they admit they drink "a little too much".   How many of you would write them an Rx for 100 Valiums with 3 or 4 refills, tell them "these’ll help you stop drinking", then show them the door.  I’m talking about today, not 25 years ago.  I can’t think that too many doctors would do this, but maybe I’m wrong.

we all know many people who have operable benzo habits, i’m not saying that abstinence and withdrawl are "easy" by any stretch…but if the patient wanted to stop drinking, why not write him an Rx for 30 .5 mg. of some benzo?  it would be less damaging for the patient in a systemic sense. durt after all, better living is possible through chemistry.                                                              for original anarchist art                                    designed for the mind AIDS awareness, corporeal freedom…live from the digital forest http://members.aol.com/durtro/mainmap.htm

Response:

: Dear Steve, : I saw that you were an M.D. : I have friend addicted to crystal meth. He wants to quit but will not, : will not, will not, go to treatment. He is scared to crash, can he take : Xanex or VAlium along with our support?  Or will there be a drug : interaction? : Anyone who knows about these drug interactions or info on when he can : maintain a regular lifestyle and sends a responds will be much : appreciated. Thank you : Erik I’m not an M. D., but I believe your friend needs professional help.   Chrystal meth can kill and or cause brain damage.  Sudden unhospitalized withdrawl can cause suicidal depression.  He/She should be hospitalized ASAP under the care of a psychiatrist/psychotherapist.  In addition a group like Narcotics Anonymous or some other support group may be helpful. I’d be careful with benzos like Valium and Xanax too.  They are useful, but should be perscribed by a doctor and taken as prescribed, especially with someone with a substance abuse problem like your friend. If he was my friend, I’d research where the best hospital he can go to and help him check in ASAP as he realizes he neeeds help.  I think that’s the best way you can help him.  But, make sure he decided he wants to check in because such a person can only really be help when he is ready.  To do so may really bias him against the idea.  Nobody responds positively to being forced to do something.  Encouraging him/her to do so in a friendly way is, in my opinion, the best way to help. Sincerely, Jacob Parnas

Response:

: Most people would agree that it’s generally not good to give : Xanax to someone with a history of drug or alcohol dependence. :    There’s NO truth in that.  Benzodiazepines are the mainstays of : getting people off alcohol in just about every medical treatment : program there is…. I’d like to do a little survey of doctors here.  Suppose a patient comes in and shows signs of being an alcohol abuser.   Like having an enlarged liver, abnormal liver tests, you confront the patient and they admit they drink "a little too much".   How many of you would write them an Rx for 100 Valiums with 3 or 4 refills, tell them "these’ll help you stop drinking", then show them the door.  I’m talking about today, not 25 years ago.  I can’t think that too many doctors would do this, but maybe I’m wrong.

Response:

: Most people would agree that it’s generally not good to give : Xanax to someone with a history of drug or alcohol dependence. :    There’s NO truth in that.  Benzodiazepines are the mainstays of : getting people off alcohol in just about every medical treatment : program there is.  It’s certainly hard (sometimes as hard) to get : people off benzodiazepines, but at least they don’t rot your brain and : liver and make you violent…. True, benzos are used (and properly so) in acute alcohol detox for several days.  That was not what I was referring to. I’m not disagreeing that long-term benzo use poses less health risks than alcohol use, either.  What I was saying was that hardly anyone is going to prescribe them, for routine, regular use, for someone with a suspected alcohol problem.  In fact in today’s era of DEA scrutiny, it’s pretty rare that anyone is going to get Rx’s for these drugs on a regular basis, alcoholic or not. If you were to hand out Xanax like candy to a problem drinker, how would you know the person wouldn’t continue to drink as well as take the drug.   This obviously is dangerous, and often results in a much worse addiction than either drug or alcohol alone.  And also, most alcohol treatment people believe that giving potentially addictive drugs to a "recovering" alcoholic creates a serious risk of causing a relapse.

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Xanax won’t drive you stark raving mad.  But stopping Xanax sure can, it’s one of the hardest drugs to quit if you take in more than very small doses.

   There’s some truth in that. Most people would agree that it’s generally not good to give Xanax to someone with a history of drug or alcohol dependence.

   There’s NO truth in that.  Benzodiazepines are the mainstays of getting people off alcohol in just about every medical treatment program there is.  It’s certainly hard (sometimes as hard) to get people off benzodiazepines, but at least they don’t rot your brain and liver and make you violent.  You can take Xanax the rest of your life without killing yourself or others.  Therefore, one addition at a time.  Worst ones first.                                           Steve Harris, M.D.

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Dear Steve, I saw that you were an M.D. I have friend addicted to crystal meth. He wants to quit but will not, will not, will not, go to treatment. He is scared to crash, can he take Xanex or VAlium along with our support?  Or will there be a drug interaction?

   Probably not.  The important drug interactions with Xanax involve synergistic effects with other "downer" drugs, which of course methamphatamine isn’t.  You can usually use it freely to kill anxiety when getting off addictions to most things (but wait until the anxiety hits).  Occassionally "downer" type addicts (people who like alcohol or barbiturates) end up dependent on Xanax, but there are worse things to be dependent on (like alcohol!).  This happens less rarely with addiction to uppers and narcotics.  With excitants like meth and cocaine, the feeling on withdrawal is less anxiety than one of complete and horrendous depression and lethargy, caused by lack of neurotransmitters.  Sometimes Xanax/Ativan/Librium/Valium and the like can keep a person from going crazy during this phase.  If so, use em.    But get him off the meth.  It’s a horrible drug, and will eventually drive him stark raving mad.  Xanax, at least, will not.                                             Steve Harris, M.D.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Durtro) writes: Steve Harris, M.D. yeah, Steve.   that’s it in a nutshell. diagnosis is all subjective, we are all "dysfunctional".  at least that’s my immediate take on your post. thanks durt    Why no, Durt, diagosis is not subjective, rather it is objective. You hook these kids up to a machine, and it either prints out "ADD" or "no ADD".   Kind of like taking your car into the garage for an emissions inspection.  What’d you think?  And, you know, the damned machine is NEVER wrong.  If it was, we’d introduce an element of subjectivity, and that would be really scary, wouldn’t it?    Did I say we were all dysfunctional?  Where was that?  There seem to be real problems in people thinking they’ve read something other than what I’ve written.  You need to forget that Evelyn Wood stuff when reading my posts.                                            SBH

oh well, on the reread i see i misconstrued your post.  nobody’s perfect, least of all me.  that’s what happens when i don’t get my marijuana. peace durt http://members.aol.com/durtro/mainmap.htm original anarchist art designed for the mind corporeal freedom, digital art now! screw ‘em if they can’t take a joke.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Durtro) writes: Steve Harris, M.D. yeah, Steve.   that’s it in a nutshell. diagnosis is all subjective, we are all "dysfunctional".  at least that’s my immediate take on your post. thanks durt

   Why no, Durt, diagosis is not subjective, rather it is objective. You hook these kids up to a machine, and it either prints out "ADD" or "no ADD".   Kind of like taking your car into the garage for an emissions inspection.  What’d you think?  And, you know, the damned machine is NEVER wrong.  If it was, we’d introduce an element of subjectivity, and that would be really scary, wouldn’t it?    Did I say we were all dysfunctional?  Where was that?  There seem to be real problems in people thinking they’ve read something other than what I’ve written.  You need to forget that Evelyn Wood stuff when reading my posts.                                            SBH

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Steve Harris, M.D.

yeah, Steve.   that’s it in a nutshell. diagnosis is all subjective, we are all "dysfunctional".  at least that’s my immediate take on your post. thanks durt                                                              for original anarchist art                                    designed for the mind AIDS awareness, corporeal freedom…live from the digital forest http://members.aol.com/durtro/mainmap.htm

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Dear Steve, I saw that you were an M.D. I have friend addicted to crystal meth. He wants to quit but will not, will not, will not, go to treatment. He is scared to crash, can he take Xanex or VAlium along with our support?  Or will there be a drug interaction? Anyone who knows about these drug interactions or info on when he can maintain a regular lifestyle and sends a responds will be much appreciated. Thank you Erik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     "Poor administration or incorrect dosage of Ritalin can lead to some of the following side effects: `zombie-like’ behavior, growth suppression, behavior or thought disorder, seizures, headaches, blurred vision, scalp hair loss, Tourette’s syndrome – including tics, barking like a dog and babbling profanities. It can also result in drug dependence and an inclination for criminality."   That what the APA says about the drug they want to give to your child because he/she is "fussy" in school or loses things like pencils or homework assignments.   Did you ever lose a homework assignment? Do you think you were "sick" and in need of a mind-numbing drug to "fix" things?

    Another example of the mind-numbingly black-white approach of many people on both sides of the fence here.  We are supposed to believe that children can be, at worst, "fussy" in school.  Or lose pencils or homework assignments.  No discussion whatsoever of the children who spontaneously, and without ever being on any drug, babble, bark like dogs, scream, hit other children, cannot sit in a chair for 10 seconds consecutively, cannot pay attension well enough to learn the answer to 2 + 2, and who literally bounce off the walls in a classroom.  These children do not exist in the Spotlight universe.    Are all children with ADD this bad?  No.  Alas, like most diseases, "ADD" is one end of a spectrum of behavior.  Most states of ill health consist of too much of something that is present normally in everyone. How much is too much?  Ah, there’s the rub.  It isn’t obvious unless it’s REALLY too much.  And there is no clear dividing line.    This is the Greek "sorites paradox," about which I’ve writen before.  Qauntitative changes sometimes add up to "qualitative" changes, but it’s hard to see exactly how that happens.  It’s sort of mysterious, and has to do with the way we use language.  A simple illustration of it is this:  when is a child too short?  "Midgets" (note the use of language) have a disease, but how short does a child have to be to qualify?  There isn’t any good answer.   That drives some people bananas.  If there is a drug to make children taller (which there is), who do you use it on?   Binary people are driven to distraction by such discussions.    With "ADD" it isn’t that the American Psychiatric Association is blameless, of course, because like many doctors these folks have a binary mindset also: there is only health or disease, and to them (and for most of our society) the rule is that you are only supposed to use "drugs" on a "disease."  Thus, the medicalization of every mental stress or problem.  And because of the treatment claus, therefore the definitions of disease become mystic and rather sacred (see the DSM-IV if you don’t believe this).  Even when they aren’t really rationally drawn, and can never be.     A better alternative to all this is to realize that diseases, in many cases, are contructs of language.  What you actually see in life is varying degrees of *dysfunction.*  Sometimes these dysfunctions can be helped by drugs, sometimes not.   It all depends on the patient and the situation and a hundred other intangibles.  Quite often there’s no substitute for trying the drug (starting in very small doses) to see. Simple as that.  The definition game is something we do only to satisfy the makers of the "war on drugs" (see "war on the lower classes"), and the fundamentalists of various stripes.  Those with degrees, and those without.                                         Steve Harris, M.D.

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Here is another article for those who are interested. It is also goooooood therapy for the dissidents. Without something to disagree, riducule, and exercise their paranometers, they would become pretty dull and loose their enthusiasm for alt.health and would not learn anything (subconsciously) from the rest of us.                        The SPOTLIGHT     December 4, 1995       ESTABLISHMENT `EDUCATORS’ PUSH DRUGS ON DISRUPTIVE, FUSSY CHILDREN    The Establishment has an answer to children who "fuss" in school – drug them.                                By Fred Blahut    For a variety of reasons, including boredom, schoolchildren sometimes don’t pay attention the way the teacher would prefer. In times past, the answer has been a suggestion from the teacher to "pay attention," or perhaps a slap on the wrist with the ever-present ruler.    That was then. This is now. Today’s answer to fussy children? Drug them.    It is a well-established – but politically incorrect – fact that often the most fussy children are the most intelligent. They get bored in a class geared to the less intelligent. That wouldn’t be politically correct (PC).    So, in a Machiavellian move to prevent excellence from being rewarded and encouraged, the government – along with the nation’s official "brain benders" – have decided that fussy children have a mental problem. But not to worry; government schools have the answer – it’s drugs. Dope those kids to the point that they’ll sit there in class like good little zombies, never educationally outdistancing their lesser endowed classmates. But first the parents must be convinced that their children aren’t fussy; they’re fruit cakes. "Don’t worry, parents," says the government. We can fix that." And if you don’t believe the government, private industry has jumped on the bandwagon.    Recently, a SPOTLIGHT subscriber from the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania area was visiting his local bank where he found a stack of pamphlets available for customers as a "public service."    The name of this pamphlet is Reading, Writing & Ritalin. If you don’t know about Ritalin, it’s a drug; a stimulant used to "stabilize" fussy children. More about that later.    First, "fussy children" isn’t scientific enough. No good parent is going to agree to have his child drugged because he or she is "fussy." So the American Psychiatric Association (APA) has come up with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) and its associate "disease," Attention Deficit Disorder with Hyperactivity or ADHA. Parents are told that their children are "sick." But, again, don’t worry. There’s a solution: drugs.    Here’s what the "helpful, community service" pamphlet says:      Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) affects approximately 2 million school-age children. No one knows for certain what causes ADD. Evidence suggest, however, that a chemical imbalance or deficiencies in certain neurotransmitters may be the root of the problem.    To identify ADD a clinical judgment and an objective assessment is needed.    ADD is a learning disability, and is approximately 25 percent of the cases other impairments exist, therefore a psycoeducational assessment is needed including the evaluation of: reasoning skills, use of language, perception, attention, memory, visual motor functioning, academic achievement and social skills to establish a pattern.    Again, don’t worry. It isn’t your child’s fault he or she is fussy. It’s a chemical imbalance or a problem with neurotransmitters in the brain. That’s a relief. Get out the drugs.    The situation has progressed to the point that a teacher reports a "fussy" student to higher authority and the parents are informed that the child should (read:"must" if you don’t want trouble from the child welfare people) get tested for ADD.    If you disagree with drugging your fussy child after a member in good standing of the APA decides it’s the right course of action, again, prepare for a visit from the child welfare juggernaut.    And what is this Ritalin that "everyone" says is os good for your fussy child? In two consecutive issues (Feb. 27 and March 6, 1989) The SPOTLIGHT published an edited version of an interview conducted by Radio Free America’s Tom Valentine with Dennis Clarke of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights. Clarke painted a very grim picture of Ritalin.    According to Clarke, in 1989, Ritalin was "the No. 1 street drug in Canada." He identified it as a "speed-type" drug.    "You’re talking about a chemical that is manufactured by Ciba-Geigy, a major drug company, one of the biggest in the world, for doctors to five to hyperactive children," said Valentine. "Yes," answered Clarke. "How in the world can a doctor prescribe speed to a hyperactive child?" asked Valentine. Clarke answered:        This drug, when given to a child who has not yet entered puberty, has what is called a paradoxical effect. It has a reverse effect to what it would have on you or I as adults.    Whenever you give speed to a child, it has the effect of being a downer. Let’s take an example: Quaalude, a heavy psychiatric downer, was taken of the market by Congress in 1984.    If that drug was given to a child it would act as a very potent speed on the child. The child would become wildly hyperactive, the pulse would increase and the child would be in serious trouble.    Now, on the other hand, when you give speed to a child who has not yet entered puberty, for reasons we don’t fully understand, it apparently overwhelms the child’s central nervous system, cutting the motors, making it difficult for the child out move an to communicate.    Ciba-Geigy warns that this drug can cause epilepsy in children as well as in adults. It can cause epileptic seizures where there is no history of it.    Here’s what the APA says about the drug:      "Poor administration or incorrect dosage of Ritalin can lead to some of the following side effects: `zombie-like’ behavior, growth suppression, behavior or thought disorder, seizures, headaches, blurred vision, scalp hair loss, Tourette’s syndrome – including tics, barking like a dog and babbling profanities. It can also result in drug dependence and an inclination for criminality."    That what the APA says about the drug they want to give to your child because he/she is "fussy" in school or loses things like pencils or homework assignments.    Did you ever lose a homework assignment? Do you think you were "sick" and in need of a mind-numbing drug to "fix" things?    Some of the sponsors of the "community service" pamphlet given out at the bank in the Philadelphia area include Melon Bank, St. Christopher’s Hospital for Children, (GMC Truck) Delaware Valley Dealers, WPVI-TV, Channel 6 (ABC), Oak Tree Oxford Health Plans and the ever popular American Federation of Teachers, Local 3, AFL-CIO and the New Jersey Education Association.    Valentine’s interview with Clarke took place on January 19, 1989. Contact Valentine Communications. P.O. Box 11089, Naples, Florida 33716 for more details.*

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                   The SPOTLIGHT     December 14, 1992           PSYCHIATRY, DRUG PROBLEM LINKED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE    The danger of psychiatric drugs – Ritalin in particular, often prescribed for children – and the growing power of the psychiatric industry in American society was the topic discussed on the August 12 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT’s nightly call-in talk forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.    The guest was Dennis Clarke of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), an organization which has been in the forefront of fighting dangerous drugs and exposing abuses by psychiatrists in the treatment of patients. The federal Food and Drug Administration, which disapproves many natural substances such as Laetrile, flax seed oil, hydrochloric acid and l-tryptophan, approved dangerous drugs such as Prozac, Halcion and Ritalin.    An edited transcript of the interview follows. Valentine’s questions are in boldface. Clarke’s responses are in regular type.    Q. When did you first become aware of the dangers posed by the psychiatric community and its growing power in the arena of social engineering?    A. I first got into it in 1967 when I was working as an aide to a state senator. We were researching the old model cities program, a massive federal program out of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, part of the "war on poverty."    The first provisions of this program to be implemented were community mental health centers. In order for anyone to get any money to be able to plan a model city, the cities were required to go to the state legislatures and pass civil commitment laws.    These laws, which originated as "model legislation" out of the University of Chicago, said that on the signature of two physicians, a person could be picked up by the police and delivered to a mental institution where they could be held indefinitely for treatment and/or observation. Further, they could be transferred to any state in the union that had a reciprocal law.    There was no court hearing, no habeas Corpus, no right to an attorney, no right to a phone call, no notification to anyone.    I thought it very interesting that in order to get money for redevelopment of your city you had to get a mental health law. I began researching a little further and found out the program had been written by the World Federation of Mental Health Psychiatrists, people from places like Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, South Africa, Japan, Canada, South American Countries, as well as a handful from the United States.    Q. What business would all of these psychiatrists from around the world have in rewriting our laws as they would affect the model cities program?    A. Well, they were rewriting our civil commitment laws in such a way as to cause people to disappear permanently off the streets of America with no due process of law.    As I researched further, I found the plan was to move the psychiatrists into the school systems where they would "bring in new drugs which would speed up the slow students and slow down the fast ones so we can arrive at a more appropriate social norm in America."    As I came across this, I found the drugs they were talking about were the amphetamines and Ritalin. I’m referring to Benzedrine, Dexedrine, Disoxin (which are generically amphetamine), among others. Additionally, they were talking about another central nervous system stimulant by the name of methylphenidate, which is the generic name for Ritalin.    These are the main drugs people would be familiar with. The three I mentioned; as well as cocaine, another central nervous system stimulant which has a very similar effect to the amphetamines, and Ritalin. All of them do essentially the same thing to the human body, except Ritalin is more powerful than the other four.    It takes five times as much cocaine orally to do what Ritalin will do to a child at five milligrams. If you gave a child 25 milligrams of cocaine in the morning with a little pill, you would do the same thing to that child with five milligrams of Ritalin. Chemically and neurologically in its effect on the human body, Ritalin (or the amphetamines) would be equivalent to cocaine.    When you give this to a child what happens is, it cuts the child’s motors. When you give "speed" to a child who has not yet entered puberty, it has the reverse effect of what it would have on an adult: You get a stuporous state. Interestingly enough, the ~downers," like heroin – if given to a child – would have the effect of being "speed" on a child.    There are two reasons to give Ritalin to a child: The first is to get a quieter and less active child. The second one is to make a lot of money pushing drugs on children.    Q. How much does Ritalin cost?    A. I just got a report from a police chief in Tacoma, Washington. Ritalin pills are selling for $45 a pill on the streets of Tacoma. The price varies around the country. But Ritalin is becoming a street drug. It’s the No. 1 heroin substitute in North America. It ranges out on the street anywhere from $45 to $65 per pill.    We have doctors who write prescriptions for addicts. This is the most common way for these drugs to be on the streets. They come from the pens of doctors. When you keep in mind there are many drug addicts who have MDs after their names and who do become involved in drug trafficking, you can see some of the scope of the problem.    About a year ago, USA Today reported that about one out of every eight intravenous drug users in this country has an MD after his name. That’s a serious problem.    Q. Would you suggest psychiatric drugs have led the way toward the current drug problem in this country?    A. They built into this country the hard core of drug addicts we have now. Industry in the inner cities was wiped out by the drug traffic. the drug industry took over the inner cities.    What happened was that after community mental health centers were established the welfare mothers could go down there and get prescriptions for Ritalin for the children and prescriptions for painkillers for herself and turn around and sell these pills on the street.    The drug trade replaced industry in this country’s inner cities. There was no industry that could compete. the reason the inner city of Los Angeles has so many young people selling crack is, these kids have no other place to go. They can get a job flipping burgers at the minimum wage, or they can stand on the corner and make $1000 a day handing out little packets and taking in the cash. They can also sell pills that are there by prescription. This new industry has been built into the inner cities by the medical/psychiatric drug industry.    Q. Ritalin is given to children as young as 18 months.    A. Ciba-Geigy, the drug’s Swiss-based manufacturer, warns Ritalin shouldn’t be given to children under the age of six because of the potential of the drug the stunt children’s growth, literally mutating them.    In spite of that, Ritalin is in rampant use in this country, particularly in the foster care system where you may have an elderly couple who have agreed to take in a foster child.    In order to keep that child from being kicked back to the system, the medical Establishment will require the foster parents keep the child on Ritalin. This chemically straitjackets the child and keeps him easy to control. So, it is routinely used.    Q. Are you saying country governments are encouraging the use of Ritalin in the foster care systems they administer?    A. Yes, in this case we are talking about the state and county psychiatrists who work for the government. Once they have control over these children, either in foster care systems or juvenile courts systems, they will prescribe large quantities over long periods of time of these mind altering psychiatric drugs, many of which can literally lobotomize these children and make them into drug addicts before they even reach the age of five.    We hear all the time about crack mothers and their babies, but the state and local governments that hire psychiatrists to work on the children are responsible for producing more drug  addicts over the last 30 years, I would venture, than the whole illegal drug industry combined.    Q. You are laying much of the blame for the drug problem on the established psychiatric community.    A. That’s right. Now I want to talk about several classes of drugs here, in order to try to give you an idea of what we are concerned about here: the social impact of these drugs.    During the 1960’s we got an expanding number of prescription drugs called benzodiazapines, the most famous of these being Valium and Halcion (which, incidentally, is the drug President George Bush was on when he threw up on the premier of Japan.)    If we want to trace the social impact of a drug, all we have to do is trace the prescription of these drugs and the instance of domestic violence. Valium,  which is called by its public relations people a "tranquilizer" (which is not what it is ), is the drug John Hinckley was on when he shot President Ronald Reagan.    The psychiatrists always blame guns for the problem of violence. This is like blaming an automobile when a drunk driver goes out and runs someone down. Now the Hinckley case was a precedent-setting case because his psychiatrist got off in spite of the fact that if it had not been for the psychiatrists, according to the experts, this never would have happened.    Q. Physicians who rely on natural remedies do not prescribe valium. They prescribe a combination of potassium, magnesium and calcium in ex parte form.    A. The benzodiazapines are also known to cause panic attacks. People don;t relate the panic attack or the violent psychotic attacks to the drugs, because they are usually not on the drugs when they experience them. These are hypnotic drugs that are highly addictive. They probably make more drug addicts in … read more »

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                   The SPOTLIGHT     December 14, 1992 Goody, more "news" from this unbiased source.  1992 — that’s hot off the press, too.          PSYCHIATRY, DRUG PROBLEM LINKED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE   The danger of psychiatric drugs – Ritalin in particular, often prescribed for children – and the growing power of the psychiatric industry in American society was the topic discussed on the August 12 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT’s nightly call-in talk forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.   The guest was Dennis Clarke of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), Ah, yes — the front for the Church of S*ientology, isn’t it?  That’s sure the group I’d want in *my* corner.  Well, they deserve *you*, at any rate.

   ROFL!  It’s almost as though all this was a giant conspiracy by the Church of Scientol*gy…    Man, the more you know about C.of.S., the more you think that maybe the conspiracy theorists aren’t entirely wacko.  Large irony there.                                        Steve

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                  The SPOTLIGHT     December 14, 1992

Goody, more "news" from this unbiased source.  1992 — that’s hot off the press, too.          PSYCHIATRY, DRUG PROBLEM LINKED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE   The danger of psychiatric drugs – Ritalin in particular, often prescribed for children – and the growing power of the psychiatric industry in American society was the topic discussed on the August 12 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT’s nightly call-in talk forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.   The guest was Dennis Clarke of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR),

Ah, yes — the front for the Church of Scientology, isn’t it?  That’s sure the group I’d want in *my* corner.  Well, they deserve *you*, at any rate.      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.      "My theory of evolution: I think Darwin was adopted."                                        – Steven Wright (no relation)

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                  The SPOTLIGHT     December 14, 1992          PSYCHIATRY, DRUG PROBLEM LINKED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE

[...}   Certain areas of the country have been targeted, such as the state of Utah, which has the highest per capita consumption of Ritalin of any place on planet Earth.   All of this has a serious impact on society in terms of criminality. These drugs create sociopathic tendencies in individuals and lead to violence.

    I suppose it follows that Utah must be one of the most violent and sociopathic places on Earth.  Strange to tell, I grew up in Utah, and didn’t notice (I suppose they must’ve hidden the violent sociopaths in the ice cream parlors).  In fact, as an adult I moved away from Utah and spent a dozen years in Los Angeles.  Gosh, I could really tell the difference.  Bet you think I found L.A. a relief because kids there have less Ritalin.  Wrong.  I’m back now in Utah.                                         Steve Harris, M.D.                                     Gluton for Punishment

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That is a blatant lie. Jan

$    KaChing    $14

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am cross posting this to asad for additional comments. Please note that Jan Drew uses AOL which responds to only one newsgroup. http://www.212.net/crime/ritalin.htm Ritalin As of April, 1999, it is estimated that at least 4 million American children have been diagnosed as having ADHD (attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder). These 4 million children (80% of whom are boys) have been prescribed Ritalin. There is no such thing as a 100% prescription rate. Sheeesh, Mark.  Do we have to look at this fiction yet again??? <sigh Jan, check Google’s archives for posts by me on this topic.  Include "DoJ" (for Dept of Justice) in your search.  The "estimates" you have in your post are *WAY* off.  The articles I posted AGES AGO on this subject have the computations. Thanks, Kitten. Your computations were on my old Hotmail account which Jan closed. That is a blatant lie. I did no such thing. Mark can’t make up his mind which lie to tell. He has accused others as well. Accounts are closed from the posters own words.

That is an outright lie. Hotmail does not monitor its users until a whiney complaint is filed. Thus,Jan whined and complained. You know, you’d think that after a while, people would start to recognize urban myths when they see them.  Why don’t people check figures before repeating them as gospel? Ah, well.  Setting up my new web-based gradebook for my geometry class is less frustrating than correcting misinformation for the gazillionth time. There are a gazillion websites telling the dangers of Ritalin. Take your

pick. There is more misinformation on these sites that you post than information. . Mark also called me a liar, three years ago when I reported I had three year old kids on it. Now, three years later it is well known they have been on it and indeed the push is on the even give it to two year olds, which shows the insanity of organized medicine. I don’t believe in drugging kids.

And, you do not believe in thinking.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am cross posting this to asad for additional comments. Please note that Jan Drew uses AOL which responds to only one newsgroup. http://www.212.net/crime/ritalin.htm Ritalin As of April, 1999, it is estimated that at least 4 million American children have been diagnosed as having ADHD (attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder). These 4 million children (80% of whom are boys) have been prescribed Ritalin. There is no such thing as a 100% prescription rate. Sheeesh, Mark.  Do we have to look at this fiction yet again??? <sigh Jan, check Google’s archives for posts by me on this topic.  Include "DoJ" (for Dept of Justice) in your search.  The "estimates" you have in your post are *WAY* off.  The articles I posted AGES AGO on this subject have the computations. Thanks, Kitten. Your computations were on my old Hotmail account which Jan closed.

You know, you’d think that after a while, people would start to recognize urban myths when they see them.  Why don’t people check figures before repeating them as gospel? Ah, well.  Setting up my new web-based gradebook for my geometry class is less frustrating than correcting misinformation for the gazillionth time. Kitten True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant.  It clothes the naked, feeds the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute.  And serves those who harm it.  – Menno Simons, 1539 Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray

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Contray to those who perfer to give Ritalin to their kids, all still applies. Nothing is fiction. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -http://www.212.net/crime/ritalin.htm Ritalin As of April, 1999, it is estimated that at least 4 million American children have been diagnosed as having ADHD (attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder). These 4 million children (80% of whom are boys) have been prescribed Ritalin. Ninety percent of the worldwide supply of Ritalin is prescribed in the United States. The drug has been around for about 40 years and has grown in popularity in the past decade because of its success in calming off-the-wall behaviors in children. About one hundred years ago, when cocaine was legal, whiny or colicky kids were given a dose of

Question:

Problem is, alcohol only numbs the problem temporarily and it kills.   If you use alcohol for medicinal purposes on a regular basis then your panic attacks will be the least of your problems once you become an alcoholic!!   Believe me, I speak from experience.   Alcohol really can and does kill if used for more than socializing and I think it is safe to say that addiction/death is definately not a small price to pay for relief from an anxiety attack.   There are so many new medical and naturalistic methods out there so why tempt fate by using alcohol.   I say let the professional medical people help instead. — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

I agree with you… sounds like you traveled the same road as I did and it wasn’t very pretty.. Take care, LindaW (lindelee) Just over the hill is a beautiful valley, but first you must climb the hill to see it….

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Well that makes three of us panic disorder alcoholics that experienced that hell the same way. Hmm… hope eternal johnw

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My experience with both panic and alcohol addition precisely mirrors Linda Ws (thanks to God, both of us got out of the trap). So I would merely suggest that Linda’s understanding attitude that "different people experience things differently" should be modified somewhat: at least two of us experienced things exactly the same. So there is perhaps a bit of universal or objective truth in her description of rampant alcoholism on top of panic disorder. So beware of "it can’t happen to me", I’m different. hope eternal johnw

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello to all… Someone brought up alcohol  in the anx/pan channel yesterday, in corelation with PA’s.  Such as how much is ok to drink.. is it okay to drink with meds…how much is to much.  If you have to ask, how much is too much.. my guess would be that your are drinking to much. First… please ask yourself this… Am I drinking to make the anxiety and panic go away?  Am I just having a social drink with some friends? Am I  drinking  until my anxiety/ panic goes away?  Am I drinking alone? For one thing… it can be very dangerous to drink and take meds.  I would check with my Dr before doing something like that.  If you are afraid to ask your Dr that question.. you may have a problem.. Do you  drink alone?  Do you hide it from your spouse and friends how much you drink?  Do you feel guilty after drinking?  Do you think you can’t *do*it without drinking? <sniped A

Lindelee– You have just described the last 10 years of my relationship with my wife. I too had some problems with alcohol and drugs but through counseling and AA was able to put those activities behind me. But my wife could not stop drinking. Her drinking bouts were going to kill her. On her last few drunks she was drinking at least a fifth of booze a day. She would lie, cheat, and steal to get alcohol. I could never understand why she just didn’t "get it". Cars totaled out, affairs, waste and wreckage and lots of pain for me and our daughter. This summer it got really bad and divorce seemed the only alternative. I had to save myself.         But last month, after seeing the doctor about my daughters ADD, we talked about depression, a light went off in my head. I suggested that my wife see the doctor about her constant crying, panic attacks, compulsive actions, ect. He prescriped zoloft. In just four days I could see the difference. My wife says she feels alot better now after a month. She says she doesn’t think about drinking anymore. She went out, cut her hair, and got a job. I am totally amazed at the difference in her. A night and day difference.         In her words today she can relate that the alcohol was "medicin" for her anxity and panic. In other words she was self medicating herself. In all the thousands of dollars spent on treatment centers for alcohol, never was the subject brought up of clinical depression/panic disorders. It seems that the alcohol/drug treatment centers dont’ like to aknowledge this. Mabey that is because it is more profitable to keep patients in long term care with counseling that does nothing to address the possible chemical imbalances in the body. Too put it short talking about it doesn’t allways work. God bless and Good luck Russ Tanner

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This is just my story, …. it is what happened to me… please just exercise caution     (lots snipped to conserve space) Thanks for sharing your story.  As I know you from #anx/pan it was good to hear more about you — where you’ve been and where you’re at. Happy Thanksgiving! -Lynn (a.k.a. "Chat")

Yes thanks for sharing *BUT* there is another side to every story: I know anxious people who decide (against all medical advice) to carry on drinking alcohol in  excess. It is only when drunk or at least half drunk that they feel free of anxiety. OK you feel rough in the morning but that is a small price to pay for some anxiety relief. A friend of mine said that she suffers from an anxiety state that can develop into a sense of "depersonalisation" and that she then reaches for the bottle for its anxiolytic properties. I think it was Malcolm Lowry ("Under the Volcano") who said something about only being really ‘free’ when ‘trapped’ inside a whisky bottle. I find this an interesting topic as some of the people with addictions that I have known suggest that in the end addiction to booze and/or drugs is worth the pain that it brings because the pain from anxiety is worse than the pain of hangovers withdrawals etc… I cannaot remember whether it was in the lost weekend or the man with the golden arm that one of the characters said that when you have lots of problems (such as anxiety?) it is tempting to wrap them all up and put them inside a bigger and more pressing problem – getting and staying intoxicated. Perhaps one question should be whats wrong with addiction if it offers release from the pain of anxiety and replaces it with own special aches and pains??? Reg

Response:

Problem is, alcohol only numbs the problem temporarily and it kills.   If you use alcohol for medicinal purposes on a regular basis then your panic attacks will be the least of your problems once you become an alcoholic!!   Believe me, I speak from experience.   Alcohol really can and does kill if used for more than socializing and I think it is safe to say that addiction/death is definately not a small price to pay for relief from an anxiety attack.   There are so many new medical and naturalistic methods out there so why tempt fate by using alcohol.   I say let the professional medical people help instead. — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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I cannaot remember whether it was in the lost weekend or the man with the golden arm that one of the characters said that when you have lots of problems (such as anxiety?) it is tempting to wrap them all up and put them inside a bigger and more pressing problem – getting and staying intoxicated. Perhaps one question should be whats wrong with addiction if it offers release from the pain of anxiety and replaces it with own special aches and pains??? Reg

Reg- Most of us have wrestled with the problems of dependence.  The meds that are most effective for us, the benzodiazepines, all run the risk of creating a physical dependence if we use them regularly.  However, it is important to note that the dependence produced by benzos is missing certain of the characteristics of the dependence produced by alcohol, such as the hangover, inability to drive, inability to relate to others, liver and other physiological damage, inability to work etc. etc. So, the answer to the question you pose is that there is nothing inherently wrong with choosing addiction to obtain relief from pain. However, if you have the ability to choose between a benign dependence that will allow you to get on with your life, or simply replacing the pain with a self-destructive behavior, the fallacy of your argument becomes clear. IMO, there is nothing inherently wrong with dependence to relieve pain. However, to choose alcohol when there are benign alternatives available is suicidal. Hirsch

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Yes thanks for sharing *BUT* there is another side to every story:

I agree with you, there are two sides to every story, and I have been on both sides of the fence.. I know anxious people who decide (against all medical advice) to carry on drinking alcohol in  excess. It is only when drunk or at least half drunk that they feel free of anxiety. OK you feel rough in the morning but that is a small price to pay for some anxiety relief.

this is *exactly* the place I was in when I was using alcohol for my chosen Med.  In the first years drinking I was *anxiety free*, later on when my drinking got so out of hand you need more and more to keep the anxiety at bay. Also that "rough" feeling is anxiety until you drink again to make that go away.  Then it quits WORKING.. and the alcohol turns on you, and you have another problem on top of the first.  When I was drinking, I felt it was a small price to pay too.. my health and a shorter life.  This is the choice each individual has to make for themselves. A friend of mine said that she suffers from an anxiety state that can develop into a sense of "depersonalisation" and that she then reaches for the bottle for its anxiolytic properties.

I know that feeling well.  If it works for her and she is comfortable with it, then she has made her choice.  I hope for her sake she can handle it better then I did, and that it does not turn on her later.. I think it was Malcolm Lowry ("Under the Volcano") who said something about only being really ‘free’ when ‘trapped’ inside a whisky bottle. I find this an interesting topic as some of the people with addictions that I have known suggest that in the end addiction to booze and/or drugs is worth the pain that it brings because the pain from anxiety is worse than the pain of hangovers withdrawals etc…

The people you know and I know have different views on this, as each person views things differently.  You say "in the end" addiction was worth the pain because the pain from anxiety is worse.  Both are painful.  Except now you are dealing with 2 extremely painful problems instead of one.  I didn’t get hangovers in the end.. I didn’t give it a chance as  i got deeper into this if I *DID NOT* drink I was filled with total never ending anxiety.  And when I did drink it no longer worked and was filled with total anxiety.  It was a no win situation. Going thru withdrawl was the worst thing I ever have been thru in my life mentally, you don’t even know what it real,  hallucinations do give me major anxiety and believe me you see things alot worse then "pink elephants". No to mention what it did to my heart and bloodpressure.  For me withdrawl was NOT worth it… it was hell on earth like I have never seen it before, and never ever want to go thru again. I cannaot remember whether it was in the lost weekend or the man with the golden arm that one of the characters said that when you have lots of problems (such as anxiety?) it is tempting to wrap them all up and put them inside a bigger and more pressing problem – getting and staying intoxicated.

Of course it is temping… I wouldn’t have gotten so deep into it if it wasn’t.  I was looking for the easiest most effective way to relieve mayself from anxiety.  But that doesn’t mean it was the right answer for me. Perhaps one question should be whats wrong with addiction if it offers release from the pain of anxiety and replaces it with own special aches and pains???

Good question.  For one it depends on what your definition of addiction is.  There are many meds out there specificly for anxiety and PD.  If we have to use one or the other of these meds for the rest of our lives, I don’t look at this as addiction, although some people may.  I look at it as the same I would look at a diabetic needing insulin so their pancreas performs correctly, or a person on meds for high blood pressure, so they don’t have a stroke or a heart attack, or the person with epilipsy, that needs to have their attacks as I said in my original post, each has to make their own choice as to how to treat their PD.  I was sharing my life experience. only so people are aware of how it can sneak up on them and compound  a pre-existing disorder.  Not everyone with PD that drinks in going to wind up in my shoes, and I did not imply this. I only wanted to make people aware of the possible problems it can create it not done so with caution.   I thought my drinking was done with caution and had it under control, and I believe it was controlled until it became a way of life. Take Care,  LindaW (lindelee) Reg

Just over the hill is a beautiful valley, but first you must climb the hill to see it….

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~~~snips~~~  This is just my story, I am not anti-alcohol… just for myself, I know I can’t drink again.

** Linda, glad you know "yourself."  Hopefully it will help others to hear *your* story. — Used wisely, your 2