Addiction Quotes

OT: Question of the day…. 06/06/07

admin — Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

The smoking link Inky posted mentioned many smokers quit on Mondays too… wonder why that day? Monday is the day people go back to work. So it’s a good day to start something. Although one could start something any day.

I think I’d prefer a day when I didn’t have too many "new" things like the start of a working week… I’ve seen far too many people with drinking as a sort of lifestyle thing, and they won’t believe it if they’re told they’re alcoholics. There’s alot of denial in substance abusers.

I know… tonight I went to a blues gig and oe girl left to get her druk boyfriend home "I’m fine"he said, they didn’t get further than around the corner where the bar was. He thought he wanted another drink even though he could hardly keep his head upright. Anyway, I think the whole phenomenon of *craving* is interesting. Yup, it’s weird how our bodies and brains can deceive us into self- destructive behaviour, isn’t it? I guess a psychiatrist could even come up with some masochistic tendencies as a cause. (i.e. wanting to punish oneself)

Dunno- seems like many want to feel free from their worries and cares… and then stick with something that seems to work despite the hangovers. I came up with that, and I’m not a psychiatrist Just reading a book written for psychiatrists.

So what do psychiatrists read then? Not Stephen King then? — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Jackie. I know.. it’s absolutely insane, isn’t it? I found out when I went through getting sober just WHY addiction is lumped in with mental illness.. I never understood that until I really took a look at addiction..doing the very worst thing you can to your body just because you want to and not wanting to stop even when you know it is your LIFE you are endangering.. ugh. I know. A woman here in town died about a week ago.. she had an oxygen tank and was smoking. She blew herself up, I guess, or burned to death. I am considering quitting, really. I seem to vacillate between wanting to and enjoying smoking. I think that the Native Americans kind of paid us back just a bit by introducing us to tobacco. Maybe they didn’t get everybody that had it coming, but the ones they got.. they sure got ‘em good with tobacco addiction and the fact that it kills. Love, Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sally, is that *denial*? My dad had smoked – and he quit *several years* before he died. He died of a sudden, massive MI.. (at the wheel on a highway with us in the car, no less).. And later I thought it was sad he even quit smoking. Quitting smoking may have prolonged his life. He was going to die anyway, I wish he would have enjoyed himself the last few years and just smoked. How do you know he didn’t enjoy himself after he quit smoking? I enjoyed myself after I quit drinking cause I felt free of an addiction. Maybe I am rationalizing, and maybe not. :^) I have smoked a very long time, and the threat of lung cancer is always going to be there since I have. You could lessen your chance of lung CA if you quit. I need to stop lying to myself and really think about trying to live instead of doing this self destructive habit. But I do enjoy it so! – I quit once for about two months. It was liberating and nice not to be tied to my cigarettes and lighter, and good to not have my life revolve around cigarettes. I will consider quitting. Good luck. I know one has to be ready to quit a habit. And you already quit one habit: alcohol. Chip

Good points Chip.. I really had not considered that my dad enjoyed or didn’t enjoy not smoking. Actually, he never even mentioned it one way or another, and never even said to us, "I quit smoking". My mother and I just sort of noticed we had not seen him smoking for awhile, and we asked him about it. LOL..he’d quit months before and never announced it, but he was kind of eccentric like that. I also had not thought that perhaps he had prolonged his life by quitting. He died at 58. Very young and very unexpectedly. Now I find myself wondering how I can both smoke and quit smoking at the same time. I believe I remember that game from my battle to attain sobriety. I’d go to AA meetings, and could not wait to get home so I could have a beer LOL.. I did that for awhile until I got real about it and stopped drinking entirely. I think that I had to practice sobriety before getting there, and it may be the same for quitting smoking, I do not know. I am considering it. I think I may want to quit. I know I don’t want to die sooner than I have to, and I know I was okay after I got past the initial withdrawals the last time I quit. – Last time I went cold turkey. It was a bitch initially, but it was quite effective too. I know that cutting down stuff does not work for me at all..I’ve tried that way too many times. I just wish that I had never started.. I truly wish I never EVER had started this terrible habit. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

The smoking link Inky posted mentioned many smokers quit on Mondays too… wonder why that day?

Monday is the day people go back to work. So it’s a good day to start something. Although one could start something any day. I’ve seen far too many people with drinking as a sort of lifestyle thing, and they won’t believe it if they’re told they’re alcoholics.

There’s alot of denial in substance abusers. Anyway, I think the whole phenomenon of *craving* is interesting. Yup, it’s weird how our bodies and brains can deceive us into self- destructive behaviour, isn’t it?

I guess a psychiatrist could even come up with some masochistic tendencies as a cause. (i.e. wanting to punish oneself) I came up with that, and I’m not a psychiatrist Just reading a book written for psychiatrists. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ? I did smoke for 17 years and never felt guilty. I really enjoyed smoking Jackie ~*~I’ve seen and met angels wearing the disguise of ordinary people living ordinary lives~*~ ~~Tracy Chapman — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Sally, is that *denial*? My dad had smoked – and he quit *several years* before he died. He died of a sudden, massive MI.. (at the wheel on a highway with us in the car, no less).. And later I thought it was sad he even quit smoking.

Quitting smoking may have prolonged his life. He was going to die anyway, I wish he would have enjoyed himself the last few years and just smoked.

How do you know he didn’t enjoy himself after he quit smoking? I enjoyed myself after I quit drinking cause I felt free of an addiction. Maybe I am rationalizing, and maybe not.

:^) I have smoked a very long time, and the threat of lung cancer is always going to be there since I have.

You could lessen your chance of lung CA if you quit. I need to stop lying to myself and really think about trying to live instead of doing this self destructive habit. But I do enjoy it so! – I quit once for about two months. It was liberating and nice not to be tied to my cigarettes and lighter, and good to not have my life revolve around cigarettes. I will consider quitting.

Good luck. I know one has to be ready to quit a habit. And you already quit one habit: alcohol. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Perhaps unless smoking is a form of self-medication? I’d gotten to two months without smoking and still craved

I have a theory about craving. And it is this: people only crave a substance if using the substance is still a possibility. If using a substance is still a possibility, then each day is spent asking onself should I or shouln’t I smoke today. So the days are spent obsessing about cigarettes. Even if you’re not smoking, you’re thinking about smoking. I developed the above theory from my own experience with getting off alcohol. I would quit drinking alcohol on each Monday and crave it for a period of time, up to three days, and then return to drinking. Quitting alcohol was something I wanted to do, but didn’t think I *had* to do. Finally I reached a point when I knew taking *one* more swallow of alcohol could lead to death. And I wanted to live. So drinking alcohol was no longer an option…..it was totally out of the question. At that point I joined AA cause I knew it worked, and never once, in the last 29 years, have I had any craving for alcohol. Anyway, I think the whole phenomenon of *craving* is interesting. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Perhaps unless smoking is a form of self-medication? I’d gotten to two months without smoking and still craved I have a theory about craving. And it is this: people only crave a substance if using the substance is still a possibility. If using a substance is still a possibility, then each day is spent asking onself should I or shouln’t I smoke today. So the days are spent obsessing about cigarettes. Even if you’re not smoking, you’re thinking about smoking.

It’s not so much the substance I crave, but the effect. Also I don’t *really* spend all my time thinking about coffee and cigarettes (thought I do joke about it): if I’m naturally focused on a book, tv or conversation then they won’t even cross my mind… but then nor will anything else I "should" be doing. I developed the above theory from my own experience with getting off alcohol. I would quit drinking alcohol on each Monday and crave it for a period of time, up to three days, and then return to drinking. Quitting alcohol was something I wanted to do, but didn’t think I *had* to do.

The smoking link Inky posted mentioned many smokers quit on Mondays too… wonder why that day? Finally I reached a point when I knew taking *one* more swallow of alcohol could lead to death. And I wanted to live. So drinking alcohol was no longer an option…..it was totally out of the question. At that point I joined AA cause I knew it worked, and never once, in the last 29 years, have I had any craving for alcohol.

Which is absolutely great: I’ve seen far too many people with drinking as a sort of lifestyle thing, and they won’t believe it if they’re told they’re alcoholics. Even if they’re headed out to a bar at 2am. Anyway, I think the whole phenomenon of *craving* is interesting.

Yup, it’s weird how our bodies and brains can deceive us into self- destructive behaviour, isn’t it? — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

[...] It is currently popular to pressure smokers into quitting. Will power and nicotine substitutes have been marketed as solutions, but they fall short. I won’t be using substitutes when I quit, and I won’t be using will power alone. I’ll retrain my brain because I don’t need to smoke. I don’t need a cigarette in the morning to wake up. I don’t need a cigarette to enjoy my meal. It takes only 3 weeks for nicotine to leave your system. What is left are all the moments we have, subconciously, connected to smoking.

Perhaps unless smoking is a form of self-medication? I’d gotten to two months without smoking and still craved… I was a right mess. Recently I’d been prescribed ADHD meds and had been hoping that I’d have an easier time of quitting if I was using a different stimulant but sadly the meds didn’t work out for me. I’m still planning on quitting, but only when I’m ready and have some better coping techniques set up… I’ll probably be using patches for a while since it was the lack of the stimulant which led me to start smoking again but it’ll probably be easier on another front as I now have coping methods for anxiety. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes I smoke.. and to say I have harbored guilt about it is tantamount to saying Mt. Everest is a bit of a hill. Yes. I have guilt, and I wish I had never started…but I love it.. and I hate it. And even after losing 3 family members to cancer – two to lung cancer, I continue to smoke, and I do not really want to quit. That is the bottom line. I don’t want to quit. Sally, is that *denial*? When I was an alcoholic I knew I had to quit drinking alcohol or it would kill me. But I always resolved to quit drinking the following Monday. And when Monday came, I would quit. For up to 3 days 3 days was as long as I could go without drinking. This went on for maybe a year or two. Till it finally hit me, I have to quit *now* or it will kill me. One more drink could end in death. That’s when I went to AA. In retrospect, I had alot of denial about my alcoholism. i.e. I knew I had to quit, but I denied I had to quit immediately. Chip

I guess it may be denial. At least in part. I remember going through the same thing with alcohol, and knowing I could die, but not wanting to stop drinking. I have thought more about the probability of smoking killing me recently. What a really stupid thing to die for, I know. I have seen what lung cancer is like. I know I don’t want to do that. OTOH, it would truly piss me off if I quit now, after 30+ years and developed lung cancer anyway. Now that would definitely piss me off. My dad had smoked – and he quit several years before he died. He died of a sudden, massive MI.. (at the wheel on a highway with us in the car, no less).. And later I thought it was sad he even quit smoking. He was going to die anyway, I wish he would have enjoyed himself the last few years and just smoked. Maybe I am rationalizing, and maybe not. I have smoked a very long time, and the threat of lung cancer is always going to be there since I have. I need to stop lying to myself and really think about trying to live instead of doing this self destructive habit. But I do enjoy it so! – I quit once for about two months. It was liberating and nice not to be tied to my cigarettes and lighter, and good to not have my life revolve around cigarettes. I will consider quitting. The thought goes through my mind fairly often that I am shortening my life, maybe by a long time. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ?

Smoked a pipe up till about 15 years ago. It never made me feel guilty. A friend got lung CA from smoking cigarrettes and died. So I quit smoking pipes. Didn’t want to get cancer in my mouth, tongue, neck, etc. Sigmund Freud smoked cigars and died of oral cancer. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Yes I smoke.. and to say I have harbored guilt about it is tantamount to saying Mt. Everest is a bit of a hill. Yes. I have guilt, and I wish I had never started…but I love it.. and I hate it. And even after losing 3 family members to cancer – two to lung cancer, I continue to smoke, and I do not really want to quit. That is the bottom line. I don’t want to quit.

Sally, is that *denial*? When I was an alcoholic I knew I had to quit drinking alcohol or it would kill me. But I always resolved to quit drinking the following Monday. And when Monday came, I would quit. For up to 3 days 3 days was as long as I could go without drinking. This went on for maybe a year or two. Till it finally hit me, I have to quit *now* or it will kill me. One more drink could end in death. That’s when I went to AA. In retrospect, I had alot of denial about my alcoholism. i.e. I knew I had to quit, but I denied I had to quit immediately. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Yes, I smoke. I hide in my garage or outside. Unfortunately, like many said, I love and hate it. Yes, I feel very guilty. I did quit a few months ago, so I’d heal properly from a surgery, then started again, psychologically, I’m hooked. We all know it’s bad for you, but can be so enjoyable. It also ruins your skin, by O2 depletion. Hey maybe that’s why the guy upstairs invented botulism, manufactured into Botox. There could be worse vices. (I guess) Maria

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ? Jackie ~*~It’s the crazy ones that have all the good pills~*~ ~~ Kim Cattrall — — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Yeah Ive smoked for a good 13 years. No, I dont feel guilty about it ever really. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I’ve smoked off and on since I was around 17. I presently smoke 6 – 8 cigs per day. I don’t feel guilty when I smoke, I just know it’s not good for my health. smiles, Elise

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ? I have smoked since about 1980, and I still smoke. When I first started, smoking was common and seemed trivial.

Obviously I smoke (seeing the thread I started ). And yes, when I started, it was even seen as anti-social not to offer a cigarette to the person next to you, if you lit one up. Tobacco addiction is very powerful. Studies have shown that this addiction affects very sensitive areas of the brain and that the addiction may not be reversible in all people (I know people who quit decades ago, yet still crave).

Actually, the real physical withdrawal from the chemical substance (nicotine) is so mild, you would hardly notice it if you knew that. It is currently popular to pressure smokers into quitting. Will power and nicotine substitutes have been marketed as solutions, but they fall short.

I won’t be using substitutes when I quit, and I won’t be using will power alone. I’ll retrain my brain because I don’t need to smoke. I don’t need a cigarette in the morning to wake up. I don’t need a cigarette to enjoy my meal. It takes only 3 weeks for nicotine to leave your system. What is left are all the moments we have, subconciously, connected to smoking. Surely, being able to quit or not says nothing about a person’s will power. It’s perposturous to think you are weak because your society taught you how horrible it MUST be to quit and only the strong ones will manage. And who taught you that? Movies, tobacco companies, substitute companies and all people who tried will power to quit and failed. Seriously, tobacco companies even claimed it was healthy at some point. I know, I talk easy because I haven’t even quit yet. But I am convinced a huge part of quitting is retraining your brain. It’s quite similar to therapies like CBT and RET.. Do I feel guilty for smoking? No. It was a part of the culture I grew up in. Culture seems easier to change than my neurochemistry.

Yes and no.. Yes because I couldn’t quit even when pregnant.. I put both my babies at risk. And I continue to do so with smoking in their presence. No because I too started smoking in a different society with a different awareness. However, it does not change the fact that I am still poisoning myself and others around me. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I agree. Tobacco addiction is very powerful. Studies have shown that this addiction affects very sensitive areas of the brain and that the addiction may not be reversible in all people (I know people who quit decades ago, yet still crave).

For me, smoking was far more psycholigically than anything else. It is currently popular to pressure smokers into quitting. Will power and nicotine substitutes have been marketed as solutions, but they fall short. In the US, smokers are demonized and taxed. Very little of the smoking tax goes to help smokers, most of the money is used to shame smokers rather than find better ways to help them.

I am a non smoker, yet I agree with most of what you say. In your paragraph above, you mention that very little of smoking tax goes to help smokers, rather than find better ways to help them. I would say that most people who smoke do so because they want to smoke and don’t want to quit, no matter what treatment is offered to them. I have three grown up kids who all smoke and none of them have any intention at the moment and don’t want help to quit since they don’t want to quit. You can’t make people do things they don’t want to do as I have found out so many times in my life and it nearly killed me to try. I used to smoke and my mother who never smoked in her life would say I should stop smoking, and I just ignored it, like my kids do with me. I was ready when I was ready and not when other people harped on and on about it. I think in particular, that older people who have smoked for years, should not feel bad about it. We, as a society, should leave them alone to enjoy the few cigarettes they have a day. I don’t begrudge them for it. This is only my own opinion of course, and others probably disagree and they are entitled to their opinion, as am I. Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do I feel guilty for smoking? No. It was a part of the culture I grew up in. Culture seems easier to change than my neurochemistry. Should we equally blame our parents for having high cholesterol health conditions before that hazard was common knowledge? In the name of civility and compassion, I think there should be a kind of "grandfather clause" (people who are already addicted should be given some degree of tolerance and helped, not just punnished, by taxes). The next addiction crusades will likely regard substances like alcohol, caffiene, salt, sugar, carbohydrates, and many other things. How will you feel when your favorite substance becomes unpopular and taxed and used to label you as an addict? Think about it before it becomes a reality for you too. Very Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ? I have smoked since about 1980, and I still smoke. When I first started, smoking was common and seemed trivial. Since then, much awareness of the hazards have grown, which I think is generally good. I would like to see the future smoke-free, for the sake of future generations. However, I feel that current society is being too hard and too cruel on people who have smoked for years. Tobacco addiction is very powerful. Studies have shown that this addiction affects very sensitive areas of the brain and that the addiction may not be reversible in all people (I know people who quit decades ago, yet still crave). It is currently popular to pressure smokers into quitting. Will power and nicotine substitutes have been marketed as solutions, but they fall short. In the US, smokers are demonized and taxed. Very little of the smoking tax goes to help smokers, most of the money is used to shame smokers rather than find better ways to help them. Do I feel guilty for smoking? No. It was a part of the culture I grew up in. Culture seems easier to change than my neurochemistry. Should we equally blame our parents for having high cholesterol health conditions before that hazard was common knowledge? In the name of civility and compassion, I think there should be a kind of "grandfather clause" (people who are already addicted should be given some degree of tolerance and helped, not just punnished, by taxes). The next addiction crusades will likely regard substances like alcohol, caffiene, salt, sugar, carbohydrates, and many other things. How will you feel when your favorite substance becomes unpopular and taxed and used to label you as an addict? Think about it before it becomes a reality for you too. Very Best Wishes, Arthur —

I have a love/hate relationship with my cigs. I do get tired of everyone nagging me about it. It makes me want to smoke even more when an ex-smoker reads me the riot act. Terri — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ?

I have smoked since about 1980, and I still smoke. When I first started, smoking was common and seemed trivial. Since then, much awareness of the hazards have grown, which I think is generally good. I would like to see the future smoke-free, for the sake of future generations. However, I feel that current society is being too hard and too cruel on people who have smoked for years. Tobacco addiction is very powerful. Studies have shown that this addiction affects very sensitive areas of the brain and that the addiction may not be reversible in all people (I know people who quit decades ago, yet still crave). It is currently popular to pressure smokers into quitting. Will power and nicotine substitutes have been marketed as solutions, but they fall short. In the US, smokers are demonized and taxed. Very little of the smoking tax goes to help smokers, most of the money is used to shame smokers rather than find better ways to help them. Do I feel guilty for smoking? No. It was a part of the culture I grew up in. Culture seems easier to change than my neurochemistry. Should we equally blame our parents for having high cholesterol health conditions before that hazard was common knowledge? In the name of civility and compassion, I think there should be a kind of "grandfather clause" (people who are already addicted should be given some degree of tolerance and helped, not just punnished, by taxes). The next addiction crusades will likely regard substances like alcohol, caffiene, salt, sugar, carbohydrates, and many other things. How will you feel when your favorite substance becomes unpopular and taxed and used to label you as an addict? Think about it before it becomes a reality for you too. Very Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ? Jackie ~*~It’s the crazy ones that have all the good pills~*~ ~~ Kim Cattrall

Response:

06/06/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Miss Anna Do or did you smoke and do you feel guilty when you do ? Jackie

Never did. I’m glad too – my mom had a heart attack a few years ago after smoking for many years. She survived but it showed me how destructive that habit can be. — _TJ_

Response:

I used to smoke but quit 11 years ago. When I did smoke, I didn’t feel guilty probably becauase when I used to smoke, my daughter was living with me and she smoked too. I didn’t smoke a lot for 5 or 6 years before I quit, though I used to smoke more about 20 years ago when I had a social life. It went with the territory Mary — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Kids On ADHD Drugs – Dangerous Path To Addiction

admin — Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

No Coleah … you are not understanding yet again. It’s not ‘period.’ Your buddy Probert has denied he was ever a lawyer and never disbarred … you have also spread this lie … That is what Ms Drew I believe was referring to … his continued dishonesty backed by your dishonesty. Seems like Mr Probert is being yet again dishonest and pretending that he was never a lawyer and never disbarred. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm Full text and details of his disbarment *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Response:

Let this be further proof of Mark Probert the liar…. Nothing was *Incorrect*… Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, alt.health, japan.life.health, misc.health by this author Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Smith. You must be new. Go to google and read every post of mine. You will find out that I am into my third career, am the father of two special chidlren, married for nearly 30 years, and devoutly believe in fact based medicine.

Response:

Have you and Jan nothing better to occupy your minds? The man said he’d had 3 careers by age 55. Period.

NO, he said: Incorrect! He is a liar! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Coleah … you are not understanding yet again. Your buddy Probert has denied he was ever a lawyer and never disbarred … you have also spread this lie … That is what Ms Drew I believe was referring to … his continued dishonesty backed by your dishonesty. Seems like Mr Probert is being yet again dishonest and pretending that he was never a lawyer and never disbarred. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm Full text and details of his disbarment *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Response:

No Coleah … you are not understanding yet again. Your buddy Probert has denied he was ever a lawyer and never disbarred … you have also spread this lie … That is what Ms Drew I believe was referring to … his continued dishonesty backed by your dishonesty. Seems like Mr Probert is being yet again dishonest and pretending that he was never a lawyer and never disbarred. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm Full text and details of his disbarment *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Response:

Have you and Jan nothing better to occupy your minds? The man said he’d had 3 careers by age 55. Period. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Coleah … you are not understanding yet again. Your buddy Probert has denied he was ever a lawyer and never disbarred … you have also spread this lie … That is what Ms Drew I believe was referring to … his continued dishonesty backed by your dishonesty. Seems like Mr Probert is being yet again dishonest and pretending that he was never a lawyer and never disbarred. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm Full text and details of his disbarment *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Response:

I think that Jan still believes that the standard should be one. I actually had "four" counting military service. The best part was field testing the XM21.

Response:

Seems like Mr Probert is being yet again dishonest and pretending that he was never a lawyer and never disbarred. www.BreastImplantAwareness.org/sandraprobert.htm Full text and details of his disbarment *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Response:

Seems like Mr Probert is being

Not your enemy.

Response:

Now what? Jan has an ‘issue’ about how many careers someone has enjoyed in their lifetime ?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, ADHD drugs reduce the risk that kids with ADHD will abuse drugs. Jeff It’s good to see the FDA doing it’s job. == When in FACT.. they were covering up the TRUTH. == A recent review of data by the FDA seems to verify Dr Breggins assertions. Dr. Breggin is an asshole. Temper…Temper…Jeff. Restoring the truth: And here is all that was left after Jan restored the truth: They call snipping like that "lying" in some circles, Peter. A recent review of data by the FDA seems to verify Dr Breggins assertions. The FDA found that children on ADHD drugs had an increased the risk of psychosis, a mental disorder characterized by the inability to distinguish between real and imaginary events. The most important finding, the FDA said, was that signs of psychosis or mania, particularly hallucinations, occurred in patients with no risk factors, at the usual doses of any of the drugs used to treat ADHD. The FDA found a "substantial portion of the psychosis-related cases were reported to occur in children 10 years or less," an age group which does not typically suffer from psychosis, the FDA said. From January 2000, through June 30, 2005, FDA identified nearly 1,000 reports of psychosis or mania possibly linked to the drugs, including Ritalin, Adderall, Concerta, and Strattera. In addition to all the other side effects associated with ADHD drugs, Dr David Stein, author of "Unraveling the ADD/ADHD Fiasco," says stimulant drugs are "near the top of the heap of potentially addictive drugs." The Partnership for a Drug Free America, released the results of a survey in 2005, that polled more than 7,300 teenagers, and found one in 10 teenagers, or 2.3 million young people, had tried ADHD drugs without a doctor’s prescription, and that 29% of those surveyed said they had close friends who had abused the drugs. Experts agree that the wide-spread prescribing of stimulants will lead many children down the path to addiction and they warn of the perils that will follow. If medical professionals begin telling children at a very young age that they can change the way they think, feel, and behave by simply taking a pill, they will logically continue to take drugs in attempt to mood-alter whenever they have problems in life. These are the F A C T S! ***"Treatment of ADHD with stimulants such as Ritalin and psychotherapy help to improve the abnormal behaviors of ADHD, as well as the self-esteem, cognition, and social and family function of the patient." Key point: ’and PSYCHOTHERAPY’. I believe what you are missing here is that the medication assists children who have abnormally LOW levels of dopamine. It is administered in low doses and adjusted slowly. To calm. Gently. Anyone who abuses drugs (prescribed to them or not) by taking Fast & Hard ‘jolts’ of anything to feel ‘high’, suffers from character defects…Not from low levels of dopamine. For them, a spiritual transformation is necessary to heal. From all of Jan’s posts, I conclude that she believes that the medication is inherently evil, and that there is no safe usage whatsoever. IMNSHO, Jan is an all-or-nothing concrete thinker. Most interesting to note…. Mark went right along with Coleah’s making up this bit about LOW levels of dopamine. Actually, Coleah is wrong.

And Mark Probert LIES again. No where in the above thread was any such thing said, as usual he adds this NOW, with NO proof.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, ADHD drugs reduce the risk that kids with ADHD will abuse drugs. Jeff It’s good to see the FDA doing it’s job. == When in FACT.. they were covering up the TRUTH. == A recent review of data by the FDA seems to verify Dr Breggins assertions. Dr. Breggin is an asshole. Temper…Temper…Jeff. Restoring the truth: And here is all that was left after Jan restored the truth: They call snipping like that "lying" in some circles, Peter. A recent review of data by the FDA seems to verify Dr Breggins assertions. The FDA found that children on ADHD drugs had an increased the risk of psychosis, a mental disorder characterized by the inability to distinguish between real and imaginary events. The most important finding, the FDA said, was that signs of psychosis or mania, particularly hallucinations, occurred in patients with no risk factors, at the usual doses of any of the drugs used to treat ADHD. The FDA found a "substantial portion of the psychosis-related cases were reported to occur in children 10 years or less," an age group which does not typically suffer from psychosis, the FDA said. From January 2000, through June 30, 2005, FDA identified nearly 1,000 reports of psychosis or mania possibly linked to the drugs, including Ritalin, Adderall, Concerta, and Strattera. In addition to all the other side effects associated with ADHD drugs, Dr David Stein, author of "Unraveling the ADD/ADHD Fiasco," says stimulant drugs are "near the top of the heap of potentially addictive drugs." The Partnership for a Drug Free America, released the results of a survey in 2005, that polled more than 7,300 teenagers, and found one in 10 teenagers, or 2.3 million young people, had tried ADHD drugs without a doctor’s prescription, and that 29% of those surveyed said they had close friends who had abused the drugs. Experts agree that the wide-spread prescribing of stimulants will lead many children down the path to addiction and they warn of the perils that will follow. If medical professionals begin telling children at a very young age that they can change the way they think, feel, and behave by simply taking a pill, they will logically continue to take drugs in attempt to mood-alter whenever they have problems in life. These are the F A C T S! ***"Treatment of ADHD with stimulants such as Ritalin and psychotherapy help to improve the abnormal behaviors of ADHD, as well as the self-esteem, cognition, and social and family function of the patient." Key point: ’and PSYCHOTHERAPY’. I believe what you are missing here is that the medication assists children who have abnormally LOW levels of dopamine. It is administered in low doses and adjusted slowly. To calm. Gently. Anyone who abuses drugs (prescribed to them or not) by taking Fast & Hard ‘jolts’ of anything to feel ‘high’, suffers from character defects…Not from low levels of dopamine. For them, a spiritual transformation is necessary to heal. From all of Jan’s posts, I conclude that she believes that the medication is inherently evil, and that there is no safe usage whatsoever. IMNSHO, Jan is an all-or-nothing concrete thinker. Most interesting to note…. Mark went right along with Coleah’s making up this bit about LOW levels of dopamine. Actually, Coleah is wrong.

Jan, you misspelled "very intelligent woman": http://www.nida.nih.gov/about/welcome/Volkowpage.html She is the director of the National Institute of Drug Abuse, and, with her experience and expertise, she is, IMNSHO, Bush’s finest appointment. "Dr. Volkow came to NIDA from Brookhaven National Laboratory (BNL), where she held concurrent positions including associate director for life sciences, director of nuclear medicine, and director of the NIDA-Department of Energy Regional Neuroimaging Center. In addition, Dr. Volkow was a professor in the department of psychiatry and associate dean of the medical school at the State University of New York (SUNY)-Stony Brook." You surely do not beleive that you are more knowledgeable than her. "Dr. Volkow brings to NIDA a long record of accomplishment in drug addiction research. She is a recognized expert on the brain’s dopamine system with her research focusing on the brains of addicted, obese, and aging individuals. Her studies have documented changes in the dopamine system affecting the actions of frontal brain regions involved with motivation, drive, and pleasure and the decline of brain dopamine function with age." PHYSICISTS. Drug abusers jolt the brain with big and fast doses of Ritalin and have HIGH levels of dopamine transmitting. Those on RITALIN/ADHD DRUGS are at higher RISKS to be addicted to COCAINE! Just the opposite, and I have posted on this. It is noted, YOU did not prove it.

I proved it before. Look it up. It is in the archives (JanDrewism #349). OTOH, I have and CAN! http://tinyurl.com/kvazd Stimulant treatment in high school also did not influence drug use in adulthood except for greater use of cocaine. WOW!!!!!

And stimulant use is being tested as a treatment for cocaine addiction. Poor Jan.

Response:

Let’s count…take off your shoes and use your piggies: 1. Federal service 2. Consulting 3. Investigation & Security That makes three…3…tres…(1+2)…(square root of nine)…(cube root of 27)… Now do you get it? Of course not. It is too complex a concept for you. You stayed in the sandbox for 38 years as you never sought to move on. asswipe?

Yes, Ms. Toilet Paper. Forget to read Torah AGAIN today….L I A R…..? By 2002 I was well into my third career. YES….I CAUGHT YOU LYING AGAIN!!!!!!

No, I caught you being stupid again.

Response:

I have previously posted on it, and, of course, since I proved you totally wrong, you had to dig a nasty out of your anus to post about me.

Response:

*Incorrect* asswipe? Forget to read Torah AGAIN today….L I A R…..? By 2002 I was well into my third career. YES….I CAUGHT YOU LYING AGAIN!!!!!! Use your fingers, idiot,

Find that in your Torah….today….L I A R????? to figure it out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, alt.health, japan.life.health, misc.health messages by this author Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Smith. You must be new. Go to google and read every post of mine. You will find out that I am into my third career, am the father of two special chidlren, married for nearly 30 years, and devoutly believe in fact based medicine.

Response:

What lie, asswipe? By 2002 I was well into my third career. Use your fingers, idiot, to figure it out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, alt.health, japan.life.health, misc.health by this author Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Smith. You must be new. Go to google and read every post of mine. You will find out that I am into my third career, am the father of two special chidlren, married for nearly 30 years, and devoutly believe in fact based medicine.

Response:

Some &^%$# decides who has a ADHD brain…. PHYSICISTS. Drug abusers jolt the brain with big and fast doses of Ritalin and have HIGH levels of dopamine transmitting. Those on RITALIN/ADHD DRUGS are at higher RISKS to be addicted to COCAINE! Just the opposite, and I have posted on this.

It is noted, YOU did not prove it. OTOH, I have and CAN! http://tinyurl.com/kvazd Stimulant treatment in high school also did not influence drug use in adulthood except for greater use of cocaine. WOW!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro05/web1/isiddiqui.html

Response:

Let this be further proof of Mark Probert the liar….. Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative, alt.health, japan.life.health, misc.health by this author Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse Smith. You must be new. Go to google and read every post of mine. You will find out that I am into my third career, am the father of two special chidlren, married for nearly 30 years, and devoutly believe in fact based medicine.

Response:

Again, Coleah is not correct. It has been shown (by Volkow, et al) that the ADHD brain does not properly process dopamine and, by using a mild CNS stimulant like MPH, that deficiency is fixed. This has been shown by the use of the PET scan at Brookhaven National Laboratories, where it was developed by people who are called PHYSICISTS. I often go out for seafood at their favorite restaurant, which I highly recommend. Excellent! Drug abusers jolt the brain with big and fast doses of Ritalin and have HIGH levels of dopamine transmitting. Those on RITALIN/ADHD DRUGS are at higher RISKS to be addicted to COCAINE!

Just the opposite, and I have posted on this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro05/web1/isiddiqui.html

Response:

The tests to prove that one diagnosed with ADHD has LOW levels of dopamine… Are NONexistent. Drug abusers jolt the brain with big and fast doses of Ritalin and have HIGH levels of dopamine transmitting.

Those on RITALIN/ADHD DRUGS are at higher RISKS to be addicted to COCAINE! http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro05/web1/isiddiqui.html Dopamine and Addiction Imran Siddiqui Dopamine is neurotransmitter in the brain that plays vital roles in a variety of different behaviors. The major behaviors dopamine affects are movement, cognition, pleasure, and motivation (1). Dopamine is an essential component of the basal ganglia motor loop, as well as the neurotransmitter responsible for controlling the exchange of information from one brain area to another (1). However, it is the role that dopamine plays in pleasure and motivation that attracts the most neurobiologists attention as well as mine. In certain areas of the brain when dopamine is released it gives one the feeling of pleasure or satisfaction (1). These feelings of satisfaction become desired, and the person will grow a desire for the satisfaction. To satisfy that desire the person will repeat behaviors that cause the release of dopamine (2). For example food and sex release dopamine (2). That is why people want food even though their body does not need it and why people sometimes need sex. These two behaviors scientifically make sense since the body needs food to survive, and humans need to have sex to allow the race to survive. However, other, less natural behaviors have the same effect on one’s dopamine levels, and at times can even be more powerful. Often these behaviors can result in addiction due their effect on dopamine, and that addiction can have negative effects on a person’s well-being. Two of such behaviors are Cocaine is by far the more severe of the two in terms of addiction. Cocaine chemically inhibits the natural dopamine cycle. Normally, after dopamine is released, it is recycled back into a dopamine transmitting neuron. However, cocaine binds to the dopamine, and does not allow it to be recycled. Thus there is a buildup of dopamine, and it floods certain neural areas (3). The flood ends after about 30 minutes, and the person is left yearning to feel as he or she once did (3). That is how the addiction begins. Progressively a tolerance builds up due to the fact that the person is constantly trying to repeat the feeling that he or she had the first time (2). However, the person cannot, because dopamine is also released when something pleasurable yet unexpected occurs (4). After the first time, the person expects the effect, thus less dopamine is released, and the experience is less satisfying. This principal is the foundation of why gambling releases dopamine. Several studies have been conducted which targeted neural response to rewards. The results were unanimous in the fact that when one performed an action over and over again, and was given a reward randomly, dopamine levels rose. If the reward was given consistently, i.e. every four time the action was performed, the dopamine levels remained constant. Finally, if no reward was given dopamine levels dropped (4). These same random rewards can be seen in gambling. Because the outcome is based on chance, one does not know prior if he or she will win. Therefore, if the person one wins, dopamine levels increase (4). However, unlike cocaine, gambling causes addiction in only 4% of participants. This is due to the fact that Cocaine’s chemical input is much more influential on dopamine levels than gambling’s behavioral input. Therefore, only people whose dopamine levels are low, become addicted to gambling (5). This brings up a very interesting topic of discussion. How do some people have lower dopamine levels than others? Is it genetic, environment related, something else, or a combination of factors? One study concluded that pathological gamblers most often experienced traumatizing experiences when … read more »

Response:

Has anyone ever gotten off Klonopin for panic disorder and been ok?

admin — Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Dear Mr Gary: Thank you so much for your excellent and pretty useful reply. Next time we should start another thread, because I am afraid we are escaping the scope of this one. I do agree with you in respect of cannabis or hash, though I haven’t surpassed the frightening phanthoms of the thirties yet! Surely you end up, out of your brain, I know it as a fact. It is quite expensive too, to consider it a viable treatment (cost per day), there’s no control over purity, dosage, ingesta forms, etc. Side effects are nasty as well, and I tend to get depressed or in a bad mood. But I’ve used it a couple of times as a sort of ‘patch’. These last two days I decreased my dayly dosage from about 60 mg to just 20 mg thanks to hash. This high dosage I’m having now I am quite aware is unnecessary as well as ineffective (how could I ever not have fallen asleep with 75 mg?). Two months ago I finished withdrawing following Heather Asthon’s scheme (perhaps a bit more accelerated in the last week) with no problems. But then, after 11 days I felt horribly bad and depressed and, paradoxically, sometimes quite drowsy. So I re-recruited myself back into valium at 20 mg per day. It worked fine, but I preserved a trend to abuse and some sort of craving so, when circumstances became more stressful to me I just raised dosage. Mysteriously, I am quite allright, appart from minor memory losses and insomnia, so I don’t give it too much importance. Withdrawing is now for me a long term goal. But I would be glad to reduce dosage. I know insomnia wipes away itself normaly given time but you know we all are pretty impatient on this matters. In respect of melatonin, it’s not approved in Spain. There are only precursors to prescribe. I could buy it over the net, but I don’t really trust those sites. Testosterone? Yeah, I can ask for that. For sure my libido is on vacations most of the time, ha ha ha! My GP though is porrly informed on this matters. She said to me last time that vallium ‘was not a benzodiacepine, but an anticonvulsivant’, which astonished me you can’t imgine how. She prescribes me obediently, listens and is pretty human in the clinical interview, but I don’t know if it woul be wise to play the role of an ultra-informed patient. She surely would put an hypocondriac label on my back and maybe recommend me a pschiatrist, which I want to avoid if possible. I don’t even know if testosterone test are usual or if she would faint if I mention it! She might think testosterone is an analgesic, ha ha ha! No, seriously, I’ll take your advice very much into account. thanks again. Finally, as a proffesional curious, I would like to ask you a few more questions: How do you rate wikipedia’s info on all this matters? What about L-Theanine (that seems to be approved in the EU as well)?

Response:

You must be related to Margrove.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mr Gary: Thank you so much for your excellent and pretty useful reply. Next time we should start another thread, because I am afraid we are escaping the scope of this one. I do agree with you in respect of cannabis or hash, though I haven’t surpassed the frightening phanthoms of the thirties yet! Surely you end up, out of your brain, I know it as a fact. It is quite expensive too, to consider it a viable treatment (cost per day), there’s no control over purity, dosage, ingesta forms, etc. Side effects are nasty as well, and I tend to get depressed or in a bad mood. But I’ve used it a couple of times as a sort of ‘patch’. These last two days I decreased my dayly dosage from about 60 mg to just 20 mg thanks to hash. This high dosage I’m having now I am quite aware is unnecessary as well as ineffective (how could I ever not have fallen asleep with 75 mg?). Two months ago I finished withdrawing following Heather Asthon’s scheme (perhaps a bit more accelerated in the last week) with no problems. But then, after 11 days I felt horribly bad and depressed and, paradoxically, sometimes quite drowsy. So I re-recruited myself back into valium at 20 mg per day. It worked fine, but I preserved a trend to abuse and some sort of craving so, when circumstances became more stressful to me I just raised dosage. Mysteriously, I am quite allright, appart from minor memory losses and insomnia, so I don’t give it too much importance. Withdrawing is now for me a long term goal. But I would be glad to reduce dosage. I know insomnia wipes away itself normaly given time but you know we all are pretty impatient on this matters. In respect of melatonin, it’s not approved in Spain. There are only precursors to prescribe. I could buy it over the net, but I don’t really trust those sites. Testosterone? Yeah, I can ask for that. For sure my libido is on vacations most of the time, ha ha ha! My GP though is porrly informed on this matters. She said to me last time that vallium ‘was not a benzodiacepine, but an anticonvulsivant’, which astonished me you can’t imgine how. She prescribes me obediently, listens and is pretty human in the clinical interview, but I don’t know if it woul be wise to play the role of an ultra-informed patient. She surely would put an hypocondriac label on my back and maybe recommend me a pschiatrist, which I want to avoid if possible. I don’t even know if testosterone test are usual or if she would faint if I mention it! She might think testosterone is an analgesic, ha ha ha! No, seriously, I’ll take your advice very much into account. thanks again. Finally, as a proffesional curious, I would like to ask you a few more questions: How do you rate wikipedia’s info on all this matters? What about L-Theanine (that seems to be approved in the EU as well)?

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now. Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds and how in the world do you stop taking a drug like klonopin or xanax if you have taken them over two decades. I was initially started on xanax and for about 7 or eight years, it controlled my anxiety and panic and allowed me to live what I consider a normal life. Then, it just quit working no matter how many pills I would swallow. I was then switched over to klonopin and it worked beautifully until now. Can anything else be done about this hellish nightmare? Who here is controlling their PD / GAD with meds other than benzo’s? I would be more than happy to take the benzos the remainder of my natural life but they have started not to work. The klonopin is actually causing me more anxiety when I initially take it although it still blocks the panic. I prayed that this day would never come when I started on the klonopin but it is here. OMG! Carl

Response:

You need to be gentle to yourself. A side effect of any benzo, when you stop taking them, is that your anxiety will increase. That’s the drug withdrawl. I have taken them all, and I have come off and coming off is hell emotionally. Have you ever taken any therapy to learn how to cope with the terribly scary and uncomfortable feelings of anxiety? In my experience, therapy combined with meds, I now take Seroquel and Risperdol. I have had more anxiety lately than I have in a long time, but it is tolerable because I have learned some techniques to get through the attacks. The number one thing to remember, and keep telling yourself when it gets really bad is that these feelings are not going to kill you. Self talk can help "I can handle this. This is not going to kill me". Mantras, deep breaths, whatever it takes. You will be ok Carl, you’ll get through this switch.

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

What exactly is the paradoxical reaction? Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds….

I believe there’s Valium and Ativan also….Some folks take care of their Panic with an antidepressant. I know of an older woman in my old support group whose Paxil kicked in in three weeks at 20 mg. She doesn’t take Xanax anymore except for 1/8 mg at bedtime. She’s been doing this routine since 1995 and hasn’t changed her Paxil dosage since then. I don’t have panic attacks but I have noticed that a small amount of Benadryl–not so much that you get drowsy–completely calms me down–mind and body, better than any Klonopin does. It helped with the initial anxiety/agitation when I was weaning onto Zoloft. I no longer use it but it sure had an amazingly calming effect on that initial anxiety.

Response:

I am having some paradoxical reaction to the drug now.

What exactly is the paradoxical reaction? I take it now and it is causing me anxiety. I upped my dose and now I have constant eyeball twitching and watery eyes. I don’t see any way out of this hell. The klonopin was working great and now this. Xanax did the same thing to me after taking it for eight years. I had made my mind up that I was going to take klonopin until the day I die but everyday now, it is starting to work less and less. I am in w/d’s taking the drug. This indeed is a living hell. Carl Can panic disorder and anxiety be controlled with other meds….

Response:

ssri like lexapro has helped me a ton! still take a low dose of klon at times. good luck Lobo

Response:

Mr. Amor: I don’t personally put much faith in the "added substance" concept for reducing physical dependence on valium and similar drugs. The plain fact is that no other drugs really do *exactly* the same thing, and so there is some level of discomfort (although tolerable) in reducing them, particularly tolerable if they have a long half-life, such as that of diazepam. I have found that ibuprofen can help with joint pains, which sometimes come with reduction in Xanax dosing. I find, almost without exception, that people who use cannabis products on a regular basis are (and sometimes it takes a while to ferret this out, but it always eventually surfaces…) somewhat fucked-up in the head. It was a fun drug in one’s twenties, but anything beyond that, and it’s time to move on. Not to mention that it often makes anxiety disorders much worse… Ramelteon (proprietary name = Rozerem, from Takeda Pharmaceuticals) is ostensibly to mimic the effects of Melatonin, by interfacing with MT1 and MT2 receptors. I guess my question is, why not just use melatonin? Is Ramelteon more "receptor specific" or something? It is being VERY aggressively marketed locally here, perhaps I’ll get some samples and let you know what happened. Truly though, every time I actually did successfully reduce the consumption of benzo’s it was because I just decided it was *absolutely going to happen, no matter what* – and I’m the type of person that, once that’s been decided, it IS going to happen, no matter what. I share your dislike for insomnia, although I have come to realize that it’s generally not fatal – unless you fall asleep at the wheel of a car. I do agree with the basic premise of Heather’s protocol, but I don’t think I could actually BE on that much Valium, because I’d be sleeping all day long. LOL. Every single thing I end up reading about Gingko is that is really has little, if any clinical effect. Yet they sell it all day long, so somebody must like it. I also have curiosity about SAM-e, and would like to try it some day, but it’s rather pricey, and quite frankly, my mood is almost always either "good" or "very good". Get your testosterone level checked. I found out, totally by accident, that mine was low, started the Androgel thing at 5 grams/day, and my mood has become even more "casual" (except at certain obvious times, when that androgen would dictate otherwise). Please do excuse my commentary about cannabis – I’m sure there are some people who do o.k. with it, I just haven’t met them yet. G Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is your oppinion as to withdraw with the aid of third substances? I surely know the result is just to substitute one adiction for other (a common practice in modern medicine though), but I’ve been reseearching the possibilities of some aids, or suppossed aids, and I really would like to know what you make of them. Here is a list: – Melatonin (my main problem during withdrawal is insomnia). – SAM-e (although I am not depressed). – Ramelteon (which is not marketed yet in the EU and is hugely expensive over the net). – Cannabis/Hash (helps me sleeping, but I know its long term side effects. It is expensive as well.). – Gingko Biloba (to improve somwhat my concentration and memmory). I have tried, antihistaminics and Herba Hiperici without major sucess. I get too much residual drowsiness from the first and a somewhat ambiguous effect from the latter (appart from its elevated cost per treatment a day). What other strategies or authors woyld you reccomend to consult for guidelines on withdrawal. I’m medically counselled, but my GP has a poor knwoledge of BZ’s (she affirms valium is an anticonvulsivant, but not a BZ, and has no anti-ansiolitic properties), but she’s quite talkative and does me good. I know there’s the ‘add no more to the cocktail’ kind of guideline regarding this matters, but I simply can’t stand insomnia (although having developed and exersiced behavorist tecniques to achieve sleep). As to Prof. Ahston’s manual, you are right in certain aspects. She is a convinced opponent of BZ’s, which they do have a wide range of medical usages, if handle properly. But, on the other hand, she is quite cautious about forcing anyone to withdraw, and is one of the main voices alerting about the widespreaded abuse and ignorance on their prescrition and use worldwide. Switching yo diazepam worked extraordinarialy good for me, but I no longer worry about a complete withdraw at present. And finally, what do you make about GP Claire Weekles’s book ‘Self Help For Your Nerves’? It is outdated, but contains what I consider some appropiated points of view towars nervous disorders. She’s on the wikipedia, if you are not up to the task to get the book. Thanks for your time and patience GFX. Regards.

Response:

in light of my post that prompted you to get angry, you have nothing to feel badly about. I was the one who causd a prob and had to fix ‘er up! I’m not bi, I’m married and take fidelity very seriously! I just had to ask the question! Wanted to see what the response would be! Have a great day tanya!!

Response:

wowwwwwww…. holy CRIMINY ! i thought ya just hated my guts ! thank you so much ! now i feel like crap for goin’ balistic. Mmm-hmm! Am I a dyke? No, but would bi qualify me?

well yeah ! if yer bisexual, i’ll buy ya sumthin’ if you’ll get sexual ! I don’t have a problem with you tanya, I created a few issues on a few of my groups last night, and had to repent through my group therapy (a RL thing) today. I owe you an apology, so, sorry!

thank you. i’m sorry i went so off in the wild blue yonder, myself. i’ve been doin’ that alot lately. ya totally rock for saying that. xoxoxo ~t

Response:

What is your oppinion as to withdraw with the aid of third substances? I surely know the result is just to substitute one adiction for other (a common practice in modern medicine though), but I’ve been reseearching the possibilities of some aids, or suppossed aids, and I really would like to know what you make of them. Here is a list: – Melatonin (my main problem during withdrawal is insomnia). – SAM-e (although I am not depressed). – Ramelteon (which is not marketed yet in the EU and is hugely expensive over the net). – Cannabis/Hash (helps me sleeping, but I know its long term side effects. It is expensive as well.). – Gingko Biloba (to improve somwhat my concentration and memmory). I have tried, antihistaminics and Herba Hiperici without major sucess. I get too much residual drowsiness from the first and a somewhat ambiguous effect from the latter (appart from its elevated cost per treatment a day). What other strategies or authors woyld you reccomend to consult for guidelines on withdrawal. I’m medically counselled, but my GP has a poor knwoledge of BZ’s (she affirms valium is an anticonvulsivant, but not a BZ, and has no anti-ansiolitic properties), but she’s quite talkative and does me good. I know there’s the ‘add no more to the cocktail’ kind of guideline regarding this matters, but I simply can’t stand insomnia (although having developed and exersiced behavorist tecniques to achieve sleep). As to Prof. Ahston’s manual, you are right in certain aspects. She is a convinced opponent of BZ’s, which they do have a wide range of medical usages, if handle properly. But, on the other hand, she is quite cautious about forcing anyone to withdraw, and is one of the main voices alerting about the widespreaded abuse and ignorance on their prescrition and use worldwide. Switching yo diazepam worked extraordinarialy good for me, but I no longer worry about a complete withdraw at present. And finally, what do you make about GP Claire Weekles’s book ‘Self Help For Your Nerves’? It is outdated, but contains what I consider some appropiated points of view towars nervous disorders. She’s on the wikipedia, if you are not up to the task to get the book. Thanks for your time and patience GFX. Regards.

Response:

this Tanya, good english aside, you are right. Except that you told Carl it may kill him because you know, yet you are posting so you are WRONG!!!!

huh? because i ain’t dead i’m wrong? well, i guess that was just doctor jibber jabber. (am i in da twilight zone?) and i also know that eatin’ cyanide’ll kill ya but i ain’t dead from it so does that mean i’m WRONG? i think a massive heart attack could kill ya too, but since i’m postin’, i’m WRONG? yeah, it may kill ya because i know. i know because i was in that arena and it’s a well-known fact. jumpin’ off’ah 12 story building may kill ya too, but since i’m Y’ALL GO JUMP ! ::shakin head’ yippy yi yo yippy yi yippy yay yippy yo yippy yi yi LOLOL Disputing. Feel it? Hear it? yah I’m in a mood to argue.

thas cool… that sounds like fun. go argue then ! i’ll cheer ya on ! So what, wanna make something of it?

uhhhhhhh, are you drunk, Canada Girl? cuz if you ain’t, i’d highly suggest ya say y’are…. that’s be a cool excuse for yer reaction.

(i dunno know what Canada meant but "faction" was out’ah context there, any way ya cut it. i think she meant "idea" of how to deal with… etc.) personally, Carl. i believe panic can be and mostly IS borne of ‘non-issue’ related physical phenomenons, possibly psychologically driven, possibly not. that’s just me, tho. Carl? yer time on these meds is "RE"… i mean "RIDICULOUS ! " (maybe Canada only stays on her barrage of druggie wuggies for short period of time, i dunno, i dunno what she assumes as ridiculous… i do know she thinks YOUR time on your meds is ridiculous, so BAM ! (i guess) LOLOL … but i’m thinkin’ whatever time you’ve been on your meds is ridiculous only if you think so, and i, for one, don’t. good lord, i’ve been on xanax for 8, almost 9 years and have had bouts of anger with it, bouts of cold turkeyin’ it that has put me in ICU, once i was told i was 2-4 hours from death. Canada Girl don’t like me, Carl… for whatever reason. comin’ off benzos will kill ya, Carl, unsupervised or without a program, Carl, for whatever reason. please take tha more important of tha two, Carl. there really should be only one issue here, but Canada’s seen to it that there ain’t. i ain’t here ta prove nothin. xoxoxox ~tanya

Response:

yah I’m in a mood to argue. So what, wanna make something of it?

nah, maybe ya just think it’s cool ta be’ah sociopath. personally, i think yer just’ah dyke. i see nothin’ ta make somethin’ of.

Response:

Pardon? I need an interpreter to understand you. Was I drunk last night? EXTREMELY. Kids and husband were gone, and a lot of wine and my computer seemed like a good way to act out in light of feeling so out of control of everything around me lately. I was wrong. Mmm-hmm! Am I a dyke? No, but would bi qualify me? I don’t have a problem with you tanya, I created a few issues on a few of my groups last night, and had to repent through my group therapy (a RL thing) today. I owe you an apology, so, sorry!

Response:

In general, I do not agree with Heather Ashton, who is a major opponent of benzodiazepine use, however she does have some good tapering charts, which you can probably find at the following link… Her strategy is to gradually get the person on Valium (longer half-life, so less perceptible drop in serum level as the dose is lowered) and then slowly wean the Valium away. It is a good strategy for some people. http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s5 Please notez bien that I am not dispensing any sort of advice as to whether or not to discontinue Klonopin, initiate Valium or any other drug additions or subtractions – that is for YOUR doctor to do. I’m simply making information available. Many physicians, unfortunately, are not aware of various options open to them, with regard to this issue. G

Response:

ya gotta titrate off a benzo slowly. Gary knows the perfect way, but i fergot. don’t let anybody tell ya that comin’ off a benzo won’t kill ya cuz it DAMN WELL WILL, unless my 3 hospitalizations in 3 seperate states had doctors that somehow collaborated on this issue. they’re anti-siezure meds and they’re they’re the only drug (well, besides alcohol) that have a life threatening potential if stopped el BAM-O. i don’t care who disputes this, cuz i lived it and it’s’ah fact, jack. so ask Gary how ta titrate off and if ya don’t believe ME about it bein’ deadly, try it and see. (personally, i’d just take my word for it even if i am wrong…WHICH I AIN’T !!! ) ~t

Response:

I would strongly recommend you the reading of the book from PHD Claire Weekles "Self Help For Your Nerves", wich deals with panic disorders in an enlightning way (although some sections are out of date). Reffering to benzos, consult your doctor. You are obviosly tolerant, and clonazepam (Klonopin) might not be as strong a dose compare to the equivalent you were taking of Xanax. Here are two very good links if you wish to explore more (but don’t get too much obsessed about it, as they are telling you in other post, everything will be fine given time): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klonopin http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm (the latter without any intention of having you withdrawing inmediately, only as a reference, specially the estimated potency conversion table beteween BZ’s).

Response:

Canadagirl: Hello; I get the feeling that you were on one of these meds and had a "less than optimal experience" or something. I may be entirely wrong about that. In any case, lets get to the facts: Abrupt cessation of a "potent" benzodiazepine (or actually any benzodiazepine) can cause a person to be suddenly in a clinical situation called "status epilepticus", which means continuous seizure (usually it is a visible type, but not always). Status epilepticus results in other clinical manifestations, most notably hypoxia, neurologic damage and cardiac arrhythmia (sometimes due to high serum potassium, which also arises from the seizure state). It is not ALWAYS fatal, but it certainly can be. The goal, in managing a status epilepticus situation is to assure adequate oxygenation, obtain a blood pressure if at all possible, get an IV line established immediately, and generally (unless contra-indicated for some specific reason, such as allergy) to administer IV Valium or IV Ativan. The seizures generally stop almost immediately following dosage of an IV benzodiazepine. I prefer diazepam, because post-ictal patients are usually a little bit hypertensive, and this drug seems to mitigate that better than Ativan does, but some people prefer to use Ativan. I have been in this situation in hospitals many, many times – the causes of the status epilepticus were not always known to me, having just come upon the situation, but sometimes it was definitely because the person had unknowingly been discontinued off a Xanax / Klonopin/ Ativan prescription that they had been taking for a long time. The risk for seizure from abrupt stoppage of a benzodiazepine increases in direct proportion to how high the dose of the benzo was, and how long the person was on it prior to abruptly stopping it. Actually, that is unfortunately one of the most common reasons why people end up being abruptly discontinued off their benzo regimen – they end up in a car accident, they show up in a hospital, and nobody knows that they were on Xanax 1 mg four times a day for the past 5 years. Subsequently, they don’t get any, and voila, they get rather agitated, hypertensive, and start seizing. I recommend a bracelet or some other identification to try to prevent this. No one, and I mean NO ONE should EVER stop taking any benzodiazepine abruptly – status epilepticus has the potential to be fatal, so why risk it? (Recall that there is generally no IV equipment or oxygen at home, so if it happens in your laundry room or a department store, the outcome could be much worse). The drug MUST be tapered downward. In the case of Klonopin, it *ideally* would be reduced by 1/4 mg every two weeks, although some people can reduce it by 1/2 mg every two weeks. In no case should it be reduced any faster than 1/2 mg daily every three days, and that tapering schedule would be virtually impossible for a long-term benzo user to achieve. That you cite a "hugely ridiculous" time spent on Klonopin shows some sort of bias – some people benefit from long-term use, others do not. There is no "one size fits all" for this class of medications, in terms of agent, dose, or duration of use. Sadly, some people are only able to obtain relief from crippling anxiety disorders by use of this class of drugs, and do not derive benefit from the SSRI’s – which I see as unfortunate primarily because the character of anxiety-reduction from an SSRI, from my own personal view, is qualitatively different (and slightly better, in some "hard to explain" way). For the record, I use an SSRI and Xanax, and have for 16 years now. You are absolutely correct about the last thing you said. It is very difficult to discontinue benzodiazepines (which Carl has been using for some time now) without therapy and a lot of work on coping strategies for anxiety, dealing with "issues" etc.. It is also sometimes necessary to help these people with things to help them sleep, or anti-histamines etc.. And yes, it is absolutely possible to taper off them, but it is difficult – again the difficulty is usually in direct proportion to how high the dose was, and how long they were used. Some people do need to stay on them, and do much better on them than they do "off" them. I’m glad that you’re able to do well off benzodiazepines, in that they are somewhat inconvenient (well, at least I think they are…) but for some they are necessary in order to facilitate a normal life. G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tanya, good english aside, you are right. Except that you told Carl it may kill him because you know, yet you are posting so you are WRONG!!!! Disputing. Feel it? Hear it? yah I’m in a mood to argue. So what, wanna make something of it? Carl, it is not easy especially given your hugely rediculous time on these meds, it WILL hurt. no doubt about it. But it IS possible. But not without some faction of how to deal with the ISSUES without meds.

Response:

Tanya, good english aside, you are right. Except that you told Carl it may kill him because you know, yet you are posting so you are WRONG!!!! Disputing. Feel it? Hear it? yah I’m in a mood to argue. So what, wanna make something of it? Carl, it is not easy especially given your hugely rediculous time on these meds, it WILL hurt. no doubt about it. But it IS possible. But not without some faction of how to deal with the ISSUES without meds.

Response:

FDA Report Details 25 ADHD Drug Deaths

admin — Thu, 09 Feb 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Well, John, we’ve had this conversation before, but it is well known that ~ 1.0% of AEs are even reported. So a good place to start is Reporting, and docs need to do this.

Response:

Docs need to report ABUSE as well.

Response:

Matthew B. Smith, MD, I hope you rot in jail.

Response:

Lenard Adler, MD, I hope you rot in jail. Since you and MB Smith were former private office mates, maybe you share the same jail ~ ? Collusion behind bars ~ !

Response:

Dear FDA ~ I reported to the FBI. Perhaps you know them ~ ? See: Agent Carrie Robbins, NYC Office. My name is Virginia H. Hooper. I still live in New York City.

Response:

FDA Report Details 25 ADHD Drug Deaths

Maybe the stuff’s finally gonna hit the fan now, with all the publicity. The fact that people were being told these drugs were safe is a national scandal. — Buy my book about school bullying here: http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended) http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411… http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

Response:

In other words, all that has been observed so far is that 25 out of the millions and millions of people who have been taking ADHD meds have died of causes that appear to be related to medical conditions that may be exacerbated by the ADHD meds.

It’s 25 too damn many. The FDA doesn’t claim any causal relationship, they admit that they don’t even have a way to research such an infrequently recurring phenomenon, there’s no indication whether that would be a death rate from those causes higher, lower, or the same as the general population, but the press, being the press and seeking a sensation, doesn’t emphasize this aspect, they instead bury it.

Yeah, I know, man, the American media is really, really, really against ADHD drugs – NOT! — Buy my book about school bullying here: http://www.lulu.com/content/112781 (recommended) http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=1411… http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1411626559

Response:

Maybe so, but I would have died from my cocaine addiction if it weren’t for Strattera. If it’s harmful, it’s still better.

Response:

FDA Report Details 25 ADHD Drug Deaths By ANDREW BRIDGES, Associated Press Writer Thu Feb 9, 3:42 AM ET http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060209/ap_on_he_me/attention_deficit;_yl…

Response:

FDA Report Details 25 ADHD Drug Deaths By ANDREW BRIDGES, Associated Press Writer Thu Feb 9, 3:42 AM ET http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060209/ap_on_he_me/attention_deficit;_yl… WASHINGTON – Twenty-five people died and 54 more suffered serious cardiovascular problems after taking drugs to treat attention deficit hyperactivity disorder between 1999 and 2003, the government says. Children accounted for 19 of the deaths and 26 of the cases of nonfatal cardiovascular problems, including heart attack, stroke, hypertension, palpitations and arrhythmia, according to a Food and Drug Administration report released Wednesday. The FDA report also includes data on another 26 deaths between 1969 and 2003 in ADHD drug patients. Those include death by suicide, intentional overdose, drowning, heat stroke and from underlying disease. The report’s release came a day before an FDA panel was to discuss new ways of examining the potential cardiovascular risks of the drugs, which include amphetamines such as Adderall, and methylphenidates, sold as Ritalin, Concerta, Methylin and Metadate. The few studies that have looked at longer-term use of ADHD drugs provide little information on those risks, the FDA said. The cardiovascular risks include heart attack, stroke, hypertension, palpitations and arrhythmia. Sales of drugs to treat ADHD have increased sharply in recent years, with use growing at a faster rate among adults than children, according to a recent study by Medco Health Solutions, a prescription benefit manager. Spending on ADHD drugs soared from $759 million in 2000 to $3.1 billion in 2004, according to IMS Health, a pharmaceutical information and consulting firm. Death and injury reports led the FDA’s Canadian counterpart, Health Canada, to yank the ADHD drug Adderall XR from the market for six months last year. A Canadian panel eventually concluded there was inadequate evidence of increased harm from Adderall XR compared with other available therapies, a conclusion the FDA also reached based on data on hand. The FDA review released Wednesday found fewer than one adverse event – that is, a death or serious injury – per 1 million ADHD drug prescriptions filled, with the sole exception of the 1.79 cases per million of nonfatal cardiovascular or cerebrovascular problems reported in adults treated with amphetamines. Also, in some of the cases, the children who died were later found to have had undiagnosed heart conditions. And in three of the five cases of death in adults receiving amphetamine treatment, the patients had pre-existing hypertension. That suggests hypertension "may be an important risk factor for sudden death in the adult population," the report said. However, the report noted, the rare occurrence of sudden death in children treated with drugs for ADHD "warrants close monitoring." One possibility would be to add labeling to the drugs that would recommend that doctors consider the benefits and risks of prescribing the drugs to patients with heart problems, the report concluded. Adderall is made by Shire Pharmaceuticals and Ritalin is made by Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corp. Various other companies make generic versions of Ritalin as well. The FDA has asked its Drug Safety and Risk Management advisory committee to discuss the feasibility of different ways of studying whether the deaths are linked to use of the drugs, as well as specific ways of conducting such studies. That earned the FDA a rebuke from Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, who contended such work should have already begun. In a letter sent Monday to acting FDA commissioner Dr. Andrew von Eschenbach, Grassley said in part, "I remain concerned that while both psychiatric and cardiovascular risk signals have cropped up across this class of drugs this past year, it appears that FDA is just now beginning to ‘discuss approaches’

Response:

mood swings

admin — Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Has anyone else had similar experiences. p.s I suspect these symptoms were a result of substance abuse (LSD, E, SPEED) I would be grateful for any input.

Well, Paul…I don’t have the mood swings you do….but I had one shrink tell me that my addiction to cocain for 3 years probably caused my PD. That was 11 years ago he said that and since I have learned (and believe) it is more hereditary. None of the OTHER addicts I knew got this, but my mother and grandmother did. I am not saying I didn’t mess with my brain chemistry royally during that time, but I think it was inevitable for me – maybe just a bit faster with my tinkering. Just my opinion. Gwen

Response:

From what I’ve read and what my pdoc has said, BP is hereditary in nature. Although, the abuse of methanphetamines can cause that hidden gene to come through. So if your already predisposed, the drugs came set off the bi-polar. One-third of BP’s used speed heavily, implying that one third of bi-polars are so because of the drug use connection. OR you could take it to mean that one third of bi-polars self medicated regularly. Personally there is some depression in my family and I did use a fair amount of speed in the past, so in my case I accept both explanations. JB On – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic, alt.support.depression.manic, alt.support.depression.medication, soc.support.depression.manic Well, Paul…I don’t have the mood swings you do….but I had one shrink tell me that my addiction to cocain for 3 years probably caused my PD. That was 11 years ago he said that and since I have learned (and believe) it is more hereditary. None of the OTHER addicts I knew got this, but my mother and grandmother did. I am not saying I didn’t mess with my brain chemistry royally during that time, but I think it was inevitable for me – maybe just a bit faster with my tinkering. Just my opinion. Gwen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You will find many caring and helpful people on this group who know *exactly* how you feel…..and that, in itself, is some comfort… I hope this group will be of help to you, Paul……It has certainly been a Godsend to me…….Please keep reading and posting…..by helping others, we actually help ourselves more than we know…..:) Take care…. MikeH Hi everybody, I’m knew to all this NG stuff

Hi, Paul…..ditto for me. I’m new here too, and already I feel better just knowing all these wonderful people are here. I’ve learned more from this NG than from any book, mag article, or even MD!! I think you’ll like it here…..so, pull up a chair, sit down and just relax…..we’ll take care of the rest. :-) Welcome aboard! Giselle (Getting much better since she found ASAP!)

Response:

Hi everybody, I’m knew to all this NG stuff. Let me say a few things about my self. A few years ago I started getting panick attacks and then I got really depressed and anxious. For about three months I did’t talk to anyone and became a self confessed hermit,

I can relate. I used to get sick if I left the onfines of my house. Gradually these moods became less pronounced ( i.e the highs got lower and the lows got higher I think). I’m still quite anxious and a bit socially phobic and I yearn for those manic episodes which faded away about a year ago (they lasted for 18 months)<<

Are you on any prescription meds now? The reason I am asking is because my MD prescribed Zoloft for chronic depression, which gave me manic highs and terrible lows. He prescribed something called Depakote that is used as a mood stabilizer. The idea is to get the Zoloft to pick you up and the Depakote to keep you on a nice even plane. Seems to be working so far. You may want to look in to it. p.s I suspect these symptoms were a result of substance abuse (LSD, E, SPEED) <<

Very well could be. I had never experienced a panic attack until I weaned myself off a mild meth addiction. -Jennifer Bamber Repcik

Response:

does anyone else get this? I find that certain times of the day I’m really bad but then if something small but irrelevant happens I really cheer up. I seem to go back to being a normal person for 10 mins. Doesnt last because I usually swing back down then.

Response:

all day, you’ll be glad to know, i go back to black-out "can’t remember where i live or if i’ve been here before" type moments. i have to tell myself in my mind that i am home and that it’ll clear. so goes the cycle.

Response:

I cheer up if I have something else to distract me. If I’m actively taking part in a meeting, or if I’m concentrating on a bit of work (or a book, or a film), then I’m happy for a short while. But that doesn’t last, and I start to think again, and then I return right back to the painful ground. The days when there are no distractions are therefore the worst. Last weekend was particularly bad because I had no-one to spend time with to help me forget about things for a while. This coming weekend I’m busy all day every day and will therefore get to the end of Sunday just wanting some "me time" to be on my own! – kinda like trying to both have my cake and eat it I guess Fork.

Response:

yes i have them a lot

Response:

Adding my "me too" post here…. ;( —

State of the Union

admin — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Just in case you miss it: (Robo-clapping between each buzzword omitted for the sake of brevity) 2006 Budget Accomplishments Accountability Afghanistan African-American Al Queda Alternative Energy Axis of Evil Blame Game Brave Soldiers Bring terrorists to justice Bringing liberty Broad support Changed world Coalition Common good Compassion Compassionate Conservatism Compete Continued commitment Corporate scandals Creating jobs Cut and Run Dangerous times Death Tax Defend America Defend marriage Democracy Dictator(s) Duty of all Americans Economic Growth Economy Educational opportunity Election Election Reform Eliminate terrorist safe havens Encourage investment Encourage liberty Encourage production Enduring values Equality and justice Evildoers Expanding economy Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists Extremism Face a future Faith FEMA Fight them there Force for good Forces of terror Freedom Freedom from fear Frontiers of freedom Fuel Prices Gasoline Good people Got ‘em on the run Great opportunity Greatest purpose Hamas Hard work Health care reform Heck of a Job Higher standards Historical Times Hold us back Homeland Security Hope Hot on their trail Hurricane Katrina IEDs Illegal Immigrants Increase (our) production Innovative spirit Insurgency Intelligence Iraq Iraqi Democracy Iraqi Freedom Iraqi Vote Jobs of the future Korea Level the playing field Liberal Liberated millions Liberty Lobbyists Marriage Medicare reform Medicare/Medicaid Military Families Modernize Moral responsibility Morality National energy policy Nine Eleven No Child Left Behind Not discriminate against NSA Nuclear proliferation Our Allies Our children Our commitments Our grandchildren Ownership Palestinian Pandemic Peaceful Society Personal accounts Productivity Prosperity Protect our border Protect the environment Protect the homeland Public service Rebuild Reform Religious Renew again Resolve is needed Resolve Prosperity Rewrite History Rogue nations Sacrifice Saddam Hussein Safe Sanctity/Peace Senior Citizens Sept. 11 Shake our will Share Shut down their financing Social Security Stay the Course Struggle Students Supporting our troops Sustained progress Tax Relief Tell(ing) the truth Terrorist Cells Terrorist Surveillance Program Terrorist(s) The Democrats Threat of nuclear Tough road ahead Training camps Transform Troops Uncertainty and weakness Undermining our Efforts Unemployment Values Veterans Victory Vision that guides us War on terror Weapons of Mass Destruction Win(ning) Wisdom Withdrawal WMDs Working families

Response:

Forgot the "OT"- sorry…..

Response:

To bring this on topic by borrowing from the band name generator thread: Holy Lyin’ Bush It’s Just a Goddamned Piece of Funk Nucular Vulture WMD Preacher and the Relief Shameful Evil-Doers and the Ghetto Towel Embodied Good Job Brownie and the Rusty Bazooka Abramoff Payday and the Fury Gas Prices Zero and the Consequence I’m an Idiot and the Begging Lassie

Response:

Here’s a better angle should you feel so inclined: rtsp://video.c-span.org/15days/e013006_policy.rm

Response:

I’ve grown to find his "Workin’ HARD" line to rank RIGHT up there with a kid’s "you know?" or the ubiquitous "know what I mean?". Ashcroft Powell Tenet Libby The air is merely leaking out of the neocon balloon at a faster rate now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just in case you miss it: (Robo-clapping between each buzzword omitted for the sake of brevity) 2006 Budget Accomplishments Accountability Afghanistan African-American Al Queda Alternative Energy Axis of Evil Blame Game Brave Soldiers Bring terrorists to justice Bringing liberty Broad support Changed world Coalition Common good Compassion Compassionate Conservatism Compete Continued commitment Corporate scandals Creating jobs Cut and Run Dangerous times Death Tax Defend America Defend marriage Democracy Dictator(s) Duty of all Americans Economic Growth Economy Educational opportunity Election Election Reform Eliminate terrorist safe havens Encourage investment Encourage liberty Encourage production Enduring values Equality and justice Evildoers Expanding economy Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists Extremism Face a future Faith FEMA Fight them there Force for good Forces of terror Freedom Freedom from fear Frontiers of freedom Fuel Prices Gasoline Good people Got ‘em on the run Great opportunity Greatest purpose Hamas Hard work Health care reform Heck of a Job Higher standards Historical Times Hold us back Homeland Security Hope Hot on their trail Hurricane Katrina IEDs Illegal Immigrants Increase (our) production Innovative spirit Insurgency Intelligence Iraq Iraqi Democracy Iraqi Freedom Iraqi Vote Jobs of the future Korea Level the playing field Liberal Liberated millions Liberty Lobbyists Marriage Medicare reform Medicare/Medicaid Military Families Modernize Moral responsibility Morality National energy policy Nine Eleven No Child Left Behind Not discriminate against NSA Nuclear proliferation Our Allies Our children Our commitments Our grandchildren Ownership Palestinian Pandemic Peaceful Society Personal accounts Productivity Prosperity Protect our border Protect the environment Protect the homeland Public service Rebuild Reform Religious Renew again Resolve is needed Resolve Prosperity Rewrite History Rogue nations Sacrifice Saddam Hussein Safe Sanctity/Peace Senior Citizens Sept. 11 Shake our will Share Shut down their financing Social Security Stay the Course Struggle Students Supporting our troops Sustained progress Tax Relief Tell(ing) the truth Terrorist Cells Terrorist Surveillance Program Terrorist(s) The Democrats Threat of nuclear Tough road ahead Training camps Transform Troops Uncertainty and weakness Undermining our Efforts Unemployment Values Veterans Victory Vision that guides us War on terror Weapons of Mass Destruction Win(ning) Wisdom Withdrawal WMDs Working families

Response:

I’ve often thought- *IF* there was _one_ event where the U.S. Government was gathered in one physical place and the entire event was covered live by the media… Security can only be *so* good when it comes to technology and terrorism. Fact? Post 9/11/01, it’s an arrogant, stupid anachronism to do it the way it’s always been done, right there on the Senate Floor, before live TV -really _stupid_. …but isn’t that *the* very nature of "Conservatism"? Keeping things ‘unchanged’? If I’ve thought it, there’s unknown tens of thousands with the means and motive who have as well. Dumb assed blind traditionalists. The nature of nature is itself, change -and they fight it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve grown to find his "Workin’ HARD" line to rank RIGHT up there with a kid’s "you know?" or the ubiquitous "know what I mean?". Ashcroft Powell Tenet Libby The air is merely leaking out of the neocon balloon at a faster rate now.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve often thought- *IF* there was _one_ event where the U.S. Government was gathered in one physical place and the entire event was covered live by the media… Security can only be *so* good when it comes to technology and terrorism. Fact? Post 9/11/01, it’s an arrogant, stupid anachronism to do it the way it’s always been done, right there on the Senate Floor, before live TV -really _stupid_. …but isn’t that *the* very nature of "Conservatism"? Keeping things ‘unchanged’? If I’ve thought it, there’s unknown tens of thousands with the means and motive who have as well. Dumb assed blind traditionalists. The nature of nature is itself, change -and they fight it.

Typical lib hypocrisy. First, Mike Moore and his left wing buddies say there is no terrorist threat and Bushco has blown it out of proportion to scare the public. Now, we have this left wing liberal nutcase screaming how un-secure we are…. no wonder they lose election after election. …and in Mulay’s case, he loses erection after erection.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve often thought- *IF* there was _one_ event where the U.S. Government was gathered in one physical place and the entire event was covered live by the media… Security can only be *so* good when it comes to technology and terrorism. Fact? Post 9/11/01, it’s an arrogant, stupid anachronism to do it the way it’s always been done, right there on the Senate Floor, before live TV -really _stupid_. …but isn’t that *the* very nature of "Conservatism"? Keeping things ‘unchanged’? If I’ve thought it, there’s unknown tens of thousands with the means and motive who have as well. Dumb assed blind traditionalists. The nature of nature is itself, change -and they fight it. Typical lib hypocrisy.

You ass belch- Calling me a lib for knowing Bush is a tool is like calling me a Nazi for knowing Clinton was too. The Office of the Pres. of the U.S. hit bottom w/ Nixon and has yet to come back, regardless of political party. First, Mike Moore and his left wing buddies say there is no terrorist threat and Bushco has blown it out of proportion to scare the public.

Why you infected, smelly dick plug. I am confident that in all probability, NYC ($$$) and D.C. are at risk. The rest is GOP political posturing to keep the nation unified against the boogie man….and not them Now, we have this left wing liberal nutcase screaming how un-secure we are…. no wonder they lose election after election.

Hmmm- I voted for Reagan and Bush Sr. When you pull your 2" embarassment out of whatever domestic pet you’re raping, type something factual. he loses erection after erection.

In your case, erection is impossible unless you’ve smeared turd on your upper lip. .

Response:

First, Mike Moore and his left wing buddies say there is no terrorist threat and Bushco has blown it out of proportion to scare the public. Why you infected, smelly dick plug. I am confident that in all probability, NYC ($$$) and D.C. are at risk. The rest is GOP political posturing to keep the nation unified against the boogie man….and not them

That’s why if you knew anything, the President has a cabinet member tucked away somewhere in a protected environment with all the codes in case something like that happens. Same goes for some congressmen as well. Mulay fast fact #62: Mulay’s father was hanged for stealing a pig.

Response:

Cliff Hanger: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RN "screwed up" passed Cliff, not Coat Hanger

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just in case you miss it: (Robo-clapping between each buzzword omitted for the sake of brevity) 2006 Budget Accomplishments Accountability Afghanistan African-American Al Queda Alternative Energy Axis of Evil Blame Game Brave Soldiers Bring terrorists to justice Bringing liberty Broad support Changed world Coalition Common good Compassion Compassionate Conservatism Compete Continued commitment Corporate scandals Creating jobs Cut and Run Dangerous times Death Tax Defend America Defend marriage Democracy Dictator(s) Duty of all Americans Economic Growth Economy Educational opportunity Election Election Reform Eliminate terrorist safe havens Encourage investment Encourage liberty Encourage production Enduring values Equality and justice Evildoers Expanding economy Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists Extremism Face a future Faith FEMA Fight them there Force for good Forces of terror Freedom Freedom from fear Frontiers of freedom Fuel Prices Gasoline Good people Got ‘em on the run Great opportunity Greatest purpose Hamas Hard work Health care reform Heck of a Job Higher standards Historical Times Hold us back Homeland Security Hope Hot on their trail Hurricane Katrina IEDs Illegal Immigrants Increase (our) production Innovative spirit Insurgency Intelligence Iraq Iraqi Democracy Iraqi Freedom Iraqi Vote Jobs of the future Korea Level the playing field Liberal Liberated millions Liberty Lobbyists Marriage Medicare reform Medicare/Medicaid Military Families Modernize Moral responsibility Morality National energy policy Nine Eleven No Child Left Behind Not discriminate against NSA Nuclear proliferation Our Allies Our children Our commitments Our grandchildren Ownership Palestinian Pandemic Peaceful Society Personal accounts Productivity Prosperity Protect our border Protect the environment Protect the homeland Public service Rebuild Reform Religious Renew again Resolve is needed Resolve Prosperity Rewrite History Rogue nations Sacrifice Saddam Hussein Safe Sanctity/Peace Senior Citizens Sept. 11 Shake our will Share Shut down their financing Social Security Stay the Course Struggle Students Supporting our troops Sustained progress Tax Relief Tell(ing) the truth Terrorist Cells Terrorist Surveillance Program Terrorist(s) The Democrats Threat of nuclear Tough road ahead Training camps Transform Troops Uncertainty and weakness Undermining our Efforts Unemployment Values Veterans Victory Vision that guides us War on terror Weapons of Mass Destruction Win(ning) Wisdom Withdrawal WMDs Working families

Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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I assumed the marble-mouthed orator was a given. bk (thousands of hours on thousands of new production tubes. The good ones of course…)

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Bush Speech To Set Course For Second Term By Jeff Gannon Talon News February 2, 2005 WASHINGTON (Talon News) — President Bush will deliver his fifth State of the Union address on Wednesday, the first of his second term. The president will put forward an ambitious agenda which includes new initiatives and some which he was unable to achieve in his first term. The speech will be evenly divided between foreign and domestic policy, and dominated by the war on terror and Social Security reform. The address to a joint session of Congress will last about 45 minutes not counting pauses for applause. A larger and decidedly more conservative Republican majority in both houses is planning a boisterous show of support for the president. Where the president’s inaugural address only two weeks ago used broad strokes to describe the direction he would lead the country in the next four years, Wednesday’s speech will provide more of the details. A senior White House official said that following the address there would be "no doubt" where the president stands on Social Security. Bush will use the nationally televised event to speak not only to Congress, but directly to the American people as well. Last week he vowed to take the Social Security debate to the citizenry and will depart Washington on Thursday morning to begin a five-state tour to talk about his plan for reform. While details of his proposal will be offered to advance the debate, specific legislation will not be a part of the speech. The president will provide an explanation of why he has decided to take on what many have said is a politically perilous issue. He will also discuss ways to permanently fix the retirement program and how personal retirement accounts will help accomplish that goal. Other domestic policy issues will also be a part of the speech. Bush will speak about the growing economy and his plans to maintain and build on the momentum spurred by his tax cuts. He will again call on Congress to make those tax cuts permanent and repeal the death tax. The president will reiterate his plan for broad tax reform that he hopes will make the system fairer and simpler. A key point will be a commitment to fiscal discipline that will shrink the deficits caused by a loss of revenue from the recession and the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The budget the president will submit to Congress will propose little or no increases in non-defense, non-discretionary spending. However, no spending cuts are planned. Other economic topics will include legal reform, passing a comprehensive energy policy, education, and job training initiatives. Social issues will be a part of the speech as well. Conservatives are expecting pronouncements that echo promises President Bush made on the campaign trail with regard to family values, including abortion and protecting traditional marriage. The president will use the opportunity of having the full Senate before him to urge its members to end the practice of filibustering judicial nominees. He will ask that all of his nominees be treated fairly, receiving an up or down vote on the Senate floor. Democrats have used a Senate rule to keep at least a dozen nominees from being considered, even though those judges had the votes for confirmation. His comments will set the tone for the battle over the next Supreme Court nominee, likely to be waged early in his second term. Bush will also spend a good portion of the foreign policy speech paying tribute to the men and women who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to fight terror, secure freedom, and spread democracy. He will speak directly to those individuals that are fighting for freedom around the world, both soldiers and citizens. The Middle East will dominate the balance of his foreign policy remarks. He will cite historic elections in Palestine, Afghanistan, and Iraq as precursors to a transformation of the birthplace of civilization from a breeding ground for hatred to a fertile garden of hope.

Response:

Bush Speech To Set Course For Second Term By Jeff Gannon Talon News

jeff gannon is well known for asking loaded pro-republican questions at white house press briefings. talon news is an arm of the republican party. they have as much credibility as armstrong williams, maggie gallagher and michael mcmanus – wholly owned and paid for by the bush white house. see jeff gannon "reporting" at http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200501260015

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Any info from Talon news and jeff Gannon is simply an advertisement for Bush. Other journalists are wondering how this turkey got a White House press pass.

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A serious speech from a serious President. J

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I was struck by the overall religiosity of the speech–in tone and in specifics–which was really offensive. This prez, pandering to part of his "base"–the religious right–seems willing to leave no secularist tradition unstoned. As in the Middle East, he seems willing to reap the whirlwind for short-term political or financial gain.

America’s version of the Ayatollah.

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Islamists point to Allah in their political speeches, Bush invokes the Christian God. Religiosity is frightening whatever it points to. The Almighty told me she is sick of this crap and a plague on both their houses. And plague it will be. and soon.

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: :

: : : : : : : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : : Thumper : : : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. : : And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the : war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more : brilliant as the days go by. : : : Not true. Most don’t want war at all. There is no need to have a war : against an "enemy" who is surrounded and starving. : thumper How about you give me the name of one person at the DNC, that has said they do NOT want to go to war at all. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

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AA and other relious programs have been praised to the heavens, and of course it/they DO work for some people. Good. But AA has a very high rate of recidivism–much higher than cognitive therapy-based programs such as Rational Recovery and similar therapies, I believe–and religious folks often try to get such better or more effective therapies banned from prisons, from public funds, etc. They’d rather save souls than cure addictions, too often. Public funds for religious programs which do not work too well are better than public funds for non-religious programs whcih work BETTER, and this bothers me as both a practical person and an non-religious humanist who finds govt support for religion and relgiosity offensive. And in this and many other cases, flat-out the wrong option. John

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When I was a kid, our textbks taught that by the turn of the next century, world govt would have eliminated nation-states. Shows how optimistic we once were–and wrong.

Where did you go to school?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What nearly all of these programs have in common and what really helps people is the positive group support and repetition of same. They all have a policy of continued attendance at meetings where people that have the same type of problem give comfort, advice and sympathy. Many feel it’s easier to give themselves over to a higher power but I’m not so sure that the success rate is higher than that of the determined people that choose to take responsibility for changing their lives without this tactic. As you said, the recidivism is high. Thumper Certainly those in rehab programs get more solid advice on how to avoid relapse from their fellow sufferers than from Jesus. I know many people believe Jesus talks to them, but there is enough hallucinating and such among drug users not to encourage that sort of thing:) I wonder if Jesus is talking to George Bush about the Gulf War? Never thought I’d see the day where the President got so religiously sickening in the State of the Union address. "Yes, folks, I am going to bomb Iraq — praise the Lord and pass the ammunitiion." Anti-religous fanaticism from the best in the business. Bush kicked your asses and you lefties can’t take it.

Sounds like they’ve all became atheists.

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These things are always varying degrees of tedious and platitudinous. However, I was struck by the overall religiosity of the speech–in tone and in specifics–which was really offensive. This prez, pandering to part of his "base"–the religious right–seems willing to leave no secularist tradition unstoned. As in the Middle East, he seems willing to reap the whirlwind for short-term political or financial gain. The US controls the UN so completely that it is hopeless to dream that body could execute a real slap-down, but perhaps some small efforts will have some effect. When I was a kid, our textbks taught that by the turn of the next century, world govt would have eliminated nation-states. Shows how optimistic we once were–and wrong. John (closely related to some founders of the League of NAtions, the World Court, the UN, and the Nuremburg Trials—Republicans all, BTW!)

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What nearly all of these programs have in common and what really helps people is the positive group support and repetition of same. They all have a policy of continued attendance at meetings where people that have the same type of problem give comfort, advice and sympathy. Many feel it’s easier to give themselves over to a higher power but I’m not so sure that the success rate is higher than that of the determined people that choose to take responsibility for changing their lives without this tactic. As you said, the recidivism is high. Thumper

Certainly those in rehab programs get more solid advice on how to avoid relapse from their fellow sufferers than from Jesus. I know many people believe Jesus talks to them, but there is enough hallucinating and such among drug users not to encourage that sort of thing:) I wonder if Jesus is talking to George Bush about the Gulf War? Never thought I’d see the day where the President got so religiously sickening in the State of the Union address. "Yes, folks, I am going to bomb Iraq — praise the Lord and pass the ammunitiion."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome? Basically, he was anti-Capitalist and kick the money changers out of the temple. He could not be classed as pro-rich. If he appeared again with his program for the poor he would be crucified again. Earl Moreover, as the Son of God, he was incapable of sin. I am not sure that drug addiction is a sin, because it is a problem of the body becoming addicted to certain substances. AA relies on belief in a "higher power", although they do not define that higher power in religious terms. All drug rehab programs use motivational techniques of some sort. They do try to change the users’ belief systems that they MUST use drugs. All drug rehab programs have some successes and many failures. The recividist rate is high. Just as it is for alcoholics who join AA. The programs all tend to emphasize the successes, not the failures. AA has some groups that do not use the higher power theme. The members object to what they consider a religious theme and do the program as is, except for the higher power business. Others just interpet the "higher power" to mean whatever they want it to mean. Jesus was not a right wing Republican, that we know for sure. He hung out with the lower classes and made short shrift of the moralizers of his day. I don’t think he would feel much at home in the Bush White House. Ashcroft in particular would surely appall him.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : Thumper : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more brilliant as the days go by.

Not true. Most don’t want war at all. There is no need to have a war against an "enemy" who is surrounded and starving. thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I swear my 4 year old nephew could run a better political operation than the bunch they have up there now. Sooner or later, they are going to have to face the reality that this President is going to deal with Saddam. Regardless of whether he is correct in doing so, he is going to deal with him. So the Democrats should be climbing on board and pushing for sooner rather than later. That is, if they want to make a political issue out of war, which I think they do and which I think is a huge mistake. But the new guys have got to learn somehow. I guess a foot in the face is as good a way as any. If they had any sense at all, they would get "war" out of their thoughts. And when asked, say "in war, we will always support our Commander in Chief, but as the defense of America is his charge, we must focus on the domestic side of the equation and that is what we are going to do". It won’t win them back the Presidency, but it would be a near lead pipe cinch to win them back the Congress.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : Thumper : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more brilliant as the days go by. I swear my 4 year old nephew could run a better political operation than the bunch they have up there now. Sooner or later, they are going to have to face the reality that this President is going to deal with Saddam. Regardless of whether he is correct in doing so, he is going to deal with him. So the Democrats should be climbing on board and pushing for sooner rather than later. That is, if they want to make a political issue out of war, which I think they do and which I think is a huge mistake. But the new guys have got to learn somehow. I guess a foot in the face is as good a way as any. If they had any sense at all, they would get "war" out of their thoughts. And when asked, say "in war, we will always support our Commander in Chief, but as the defense of America is his charge, we must focus on the domestic side of the equation and that is what we are going to do". It won’t win them back the Presidency, but it would be a near lead pipe cinch to win them back the Congress. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

Hey, don’t knock it! At the rate they’re going, they’ll soon be a forgotten party.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Long on rhetoric, short on substance. First, he IS a politician. grin Second, what do you want? To read the intelligence reports yourself??? Ain’t gonna happen. Sounded like he got his hydrogen car briefings directly from Mel. Like Mel, he didn’t address the cost of obtaining the hyrodogen. Clueless. He proposes to provide funds for research, not production. He had a chance to present some solid evidence that we should be going to war with Iraq and blew it. He gave no substantiation for his claims. That will be provided on 5 Feb.

Want to bet? Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lots of neat new programs. Provide aids medication to Africa so aids victims can live longer and infect more people at the cost of many billions to us. So, the obvious course is to kill ‘em off quickly???? Many increases in spending and tax cuts. The unspoken message is loud and clear, do your financial planning assuming significant inflation. My plan was always to get a million dollars in debt and pray for inflation. grin cheers bob

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: : Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through : churches,soon—even defence? : : John : : The drug rehab programs Bush is lauding rely on faith in Jesus : Christ to get off drugs. I really don’t think Jesus wants to take : this on. I hope he tells Bush so:) : You are so far off base on that one, I’m almost inclined to believe you don’t really do the work you claim. I have been working with Cenacor up in Houston. They teach faith in Jesus but they teach it, and I understand many others do as well, in the context that Jesus was a virtuous person and was of such strong will that he was able to overcome all temptation and deal with life on it’s own terms. Having faith in the possibility that you can do the same and reap the same benefits is what it is all about. Maybe teaching faith in Ozzy Osbourne in the context that once you cook your brain into well done, you won’t have to worry anymore. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

Response:

What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome? Basically, he was anti-Capitalist and kick the money changers out of the temple. He could not be classed as pro-rich. If he appeared again with his program for the poor he would be crucified again. Earl

Moreover, as the Son of God, he was incapable of sin. I am not sure that drug addiction is a sin, because it is a problem of the body becoming addicted to certain substances. AA relies on belief in a "higher power", although they do not define that higher power in religious terms. All drug rehab programs use motivational techniques of some sort. They do try to change the users’ belief systems that they MUST use drugs. All drug rehab programs have some successes and many failures. The recividist rate is high. Just as it is for alcoholics who join AA. The programs all tend to emphasize the successes, not the failures. AA has some groups that do not use the higher power theme. The members object to what they consider a religious theme and do the program as is, except for the higher power business. Others just interpet the "higher power" to mean whatever they want it to mean. Jesus was not a right wing Republican, that we know for sure. He hung out with the lower classes and made short shrift of the moralizers of his day. I don’t think he would feel much at home in the Bush White House. Ashcroft in particular would surely appall him.

Response:

What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome?

Basically, he was anti-Capitalist and kick the money changers out of the temple. He could not be classed as pro-rich. If he appeared again with his program for the poor he would be crucified again. Earl

Response:

The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played.

Sounds as if you are experiencing some sour grapes re: the DNC. Did someone force you into early retirement against your wishes? You, being out of it, have to join the benchwarmers, no? I don’t believe pure political expediency holds up for long, and most Dems believe a rush to war in Iraq is a mistake. You are suggesting, in the interests of getting elected, they should go against what they believe? Another comment on the benchwarmer theme. In a democracy the benchwarmers do have something to say about how the game should be played. They make that clear in every election. Perhaps you would prefer a different form of government?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through : churches,soon—even defence? : : John : : The drug rehab programs Bush is lauding rely on faith in Jesus : Christ to get off drugs. I really don’t think Jesus wants to take : this on. I hope he tells Bush so:) : You are so far off base on that one, I’m almost inclined to believe you don’t really do the work you claim. I have been working with Cenacor up in Houston. They teach faith in Jesus but they teach it, and I understand many others do as well, in the context that Jesus was a virtuous person and was of such strong will that he was able to overcome all temptation and deal with life on it’s own terms. Having faith in the possibility that you can do the same and reap the same benefits is what it is all about.

What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome? So far as I know he had a forty day and forty night battle with Satan in the desert. But then, he was the Son of God, so of course he won. You don’t think God’s son would have a weak will, do you? As a role model for junkies, perhaps someone a bit more down to earth would be more helpful. And when public funds are involved, more in line with the notion that Congress should not make laws supporting one religion over another? I have no problem with individuals choosing one rehab program another. I do have a problem with the government handing out money to promote religious doctrine. Even in a "good cause".

Response:

That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush.

Response:

Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through churches,soon—even defence? John

The drug rehab programs Bush is lauding rely on faith in Jesus Christ to get off drugs. I really don’t think Jesus wants to take this on. I hope he tells Bush so:)

Response:

: : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : Thumper : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more brilliant as the days go by. I swear my 4 year old nephew could run a better political operation than the bunch they have up there now. Sooner or later, they are going to have to face the reality that this President is going to deal with Saddam. Regardless of whether he is correct in doing so, he is going to deal with him. So the Democrats should be climbing on board and pushing for sooner rather than later. That is, if they want to make a political issue out of war, which I think they do and which I think is a huge mistake. But the new guys have got to learn somehow. I guess a foot in the face is as good a way as any. If they had any sense at all, they would get "war" out of their thoughts. And when asked, say "in war, we will always support our Commander in Chief, but as the defense of America is his charge, we must focus on the domestic side of the equation and that is what we are going to do". It won’t win them back the Presidency, but it would be a near lead pipe cinch to win them back the Congress. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Long on rhetoric, short on substance. Sounded like he got his hydrogen car briefings directly from Mel. Like Mel, he didn’t address the cost of obtaining the hyrodogen. Clueless. He had a chance to present some solid evidence that we should be going to war with Iraq and blew it. He gave no substantiation for his claims. Lots of neat new programs. Provide aids medication to Africa so aids victims can live longer and infect more people at the cost of many billions to us. Many increases in spending and tax cuts. The unspoken message is loud and clear, do your financial planning assuming significant inflation. Dick

His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through churches,soon—even defence? John

Response:

Long on rhetoric, short on substance.

First, he IS a politician. grin Second, what do you want? To read the intelligence reports yourself??? Ain’t gonna happen. Sounded like he got his hydrogen car briefings directly from Mel. Like Mel, he didn’t address the cost of obtaining the hyrodogen. Clueless.

He proposes to provide funds for research, not production. He had a chance to present some solid evidence that we should be going to war with Iraq and blew it. He gave no substantiation for his claims.

That will be provided on 5 Feb. Lots of neat new programs. Provide aids medication to Africa so aids victims can live longer and infect more people at the cost of many billions to us.

So, the obvious course is to kill ‘em off quickly???? Many increases in spending and tax cuts. The unspoken message is loud and clear, do your financial planning assuming significant inflation.

My plan was always to get a million dollars in debt and pray for inflation. grin cheers bob

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Mel will prove in his gasoline series that the cost of transporting 37 million barrels of oil in huge oil burning tankers across the oceans of the world to their points of delivery–IS TOO EXCESSIVE–compared to Penn State’s getting Hydrogen from Fermentation of city waste treatment feed stock– Let alone the oil burned to boil the crude in the distillation process to produce gasoline !Hang in there with me. This was posted by a THINKING LIBERAL of the ‘Silent Revolution,Truth is our only PATRIOTS business. melvin WW 2 ETO Reg Army DAV VFW Amer Leg 55 YEARS UNION age 83 yrs.,

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I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. I woudn’t know. My TV set started acting up about 9:15 EST last night. It may have been because I kicked the screen in about that time

:-| :-| :-| (The above is supposed to be somebody laughing three times) I avoided watching the speech, so I wasn’t subject to the temptation.

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(The above is supposed to be somebody laughing three times)

I thought it had to be Zorro. — http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/31/74439/9483 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30592669.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/ AR2006013001162_pf.html In favor of reality absed government.

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(The above is supposed to be somebody laughing three times) I thought it had to be Zorro.

Now that you mention it, it does conjure up Zorro in my mind, too. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just your suggestion, or maybe it’s some subliminal thing that I’m not detecting.

Response:

Yeh right, you did that so your wife would let you buy the new big screen plasma tv On a serious note, I have been thinking about getting a larger screen TV. Not a plasma but a flat screen about 32 inches.

The latest Consumers Report has a review of TV sets, Sony CRT is still the sharpest but non-CRT are gaining. They say wait for the sales to buy. — Glenn

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeh right, you did that so your wife would let you buy the new big screen plasma tv On a serious note, I have been thinking about getting a larger screen TV. Not a plasma but a flat screen about 32 inches. On thing has been holding me back, and that is the extreme closeups they use these days on TV movies. Seeing nothing of a person’s face except the eyeballs, nose hairs and mouth is something I find disgusting enough on a 21 inch. I hate to think of seeing it any larger. Most of my evening TV viewing is political interview type programs and who really wants to see a larger version of Larry King and Sean Hannity ? I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. I woudn’t know. My TV set started acting up about 9:15 EST last night. It may have been because I kicked the screen in about that time

I am looking at getting a big screen also. I have a 53" Sony analog. A 50" plasm is too small and the 60" cost way way TOO much. Think I’ll go for a Samsung 56-60" DLP.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it? If you start from the premise that this is an unreality-based administration, in which so often words have no meaning, including those in the law, it was an interesting exercise in rhetoric. Whereas reality based rule making let 24 miners survive a mine fire that wasn’t put out for days in Canada our unreality based rule making set up our miners to die. "Who" is on first, "Idont Know" is on second and you are way in left field. Sounds like one of those liberal freaks like "Shithan" or what ever her name is. Oh yes! they had a nasty accident in Florida maybe you can blame it on Bush.

There you go. Jump right to name calling. The administration chose to ignore the law and folks died. — http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/31/74439/9483 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30592669.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/ AR2006013001162_pf.html In favor of reality absed government.

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I have never been able to figure out why Larry King draws such an audience. That makes two of us. I can’t figure out how a lot of people on TV these days got there.

Simple….they pitch EVERYTHING towards the acne generation which should explain why I don’t watch most of their stuff either. As far as Larry King is concerned, I used to watch him but I never liked him. I think his personality sucks and I stopped punishing myself many moons ago by the simple expedient of changing the station when he came on. George Z.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it? If you start from the premise that this is an unreality-based administration, in which so often words have no meaning, including those in the law, it was an interesting exercise in rhetoric. Whereas reality based rule making let 24 miners survive a mine fire that wasn’t put out for days in Canada our unreality based rule making set up our miners to die.

"Who" is on first, "Idont Know" is on second and you are way in left field. Sounds like one of those liberal freaks like "Shithan" or what ever her name is. Oh yes! they had a nasty accident in Florida maybe you can blame it on Bush. — Bill P. just Dog & ME At this time in life all that remains is left overs, some can be cherished as good others bad, but the only definite is that they are all that remains, main course is over.

Response:

I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. — BILL P. Just Dog & ME

Response:

Why ? , He didn’t mangle any of the lies, bullshit, or nazi propaganda Goebbels and Murdoch would be proud of their little Hitler Youth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. — BILL P. Just Dog & ME

Response:

I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career.

Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it?

Response:

Yeh right, you did that so your wife would let you buy the new big screen plasma tv

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. I woudn’t know. My TV set started acting up about 9:15 EST last night. It may have been because I kicked the screen in about that time

Response:

I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it?

If you start from the premise that this is an unreality-based administration, in which so often words have no meaning, including those in the law, it was an interesting exercise in rhetoric. Whereas reality based rule making let 24 miners survive a mine fire that wasn’t put out for days in Canada our unreality based rule making set up our miners to die. — http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/31/74439/9483 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30592669.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/ AR2006013001162_pf.html In favor of reality absed government.

Response:

G’day, Congratulations President Bush on a well delivered, passionate and intelligent speech. Hope he gets the support he needs from congress. I hope the countries he mentioned regarding terrorism are suitably embarrassed (and warned). Warm Regards, Ron Lawrence, Canberra, ACT, Australia

Response:

Ron Lawrence said: "Congratulations President Bush on a well delivered, passionate and intelligent speech. Hope he gets the support he needs from congress. I hope the countries he mentioned regarding terrorism are suitably embarrassed (and warned)." Ditto—— Lon

Response:

I agree – it was an excellent speech.

Response:

Congratulations President Bush on a well delivered, passionate and intelligent speech. Hope he gets the support he needs from congress. I hope the countries he mentioned regarding terrorism are suitably embarrassed (and warned).

I hear nothing but good about Bush’s speech. I listened to it twice last evening. There was so much applause, he had difficulty getting through it. He is enjoying the highest positive rating from Americans for the last 50 years. He is not a natural dynamic speaker like Clinton was, but he makes up for that in content. Bush is staying very focused on the terrorism issue, which was a concern of mine. The response from the three countries he mentioned will be interesting. I got the impression that something is already going on in those countries. It isn’t just a warning. -Connie

Response:

G’day, Connie writes:

"I got the impression that something is already going on in those countries. It isn’t just a warning." I am certain the US has intelligence on these countries that warrants the warning – perhaps harbouring important Al Qaeda terrorists who escaped from Afghanistan is part of it. I do not believe the US is going into Iraq soon, if ever. I cannot believe there will be a pre-emptive strike – it takes months to plan and build up the required forces – not easily hidden. I could be proved wrong of course – there’s room for more crosses on the wall

Response:

Recovery Options for the New Year

admin — Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

before Gary comes on and says I am encouraging this… We know Gary likes to point fingers like good old Elliott without exactly telling us whats wrong with them selves or even recognizing any of the same things in their own behavior. I often think how that can be. The first thing I think about when I was sick is probably how at home I felt with like minded people . BAM was I wrong The thing about hypocrites is they always like to assume power, tell us how they protect us, while fking everyone else up around them by not doing the same things they professed we did or other crazy things we just don’t get to hear thats equally squat..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do they have a mulitple choice 12 step group, the ones that have more then three listings/ descriptions? It seems like some of these things are interconnected. I like the ones where they hook up afterwards .and then do what that were not suppose to do by going. .. "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work. I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live. We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out. Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

"Recovery Options for the New Year" Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search.

is Nymphomania Anonymous anywhere in tha mix? i don’t wanna recover, i just want directions to tha meetin’. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics

<<<<

CHIRPEES? (it’s a Canarial disease.. it’s unTWEETable… i RECTUM they bettah get to tha DICKtor’n ASS him aBUTT it.. maybe he can FINGER it out..) i ain’t sure a newsgroups gunna do tha trick on thissun.

Response:

Do they have a mulitple choice 12 step group, the ones that have more then three listings/ descriptions? It seems like some of these things are interconnected. I like the ones where they hook up afterwards .and then do what that were not suppose to do by going. ..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work. I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live. We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out. Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

Anonymous anonymous – a group for people who are in too many 12 step you a year of joy and fulfillment, both personal and spiritual, as you pursue your goals, which are certainly of the highest calling. Gary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – before Gary comes on and says I am encouraging this… We know Gary likes to point fingers like good old Elliott without exactly telling us whats wrong with them selves or even recognizing any of the same things in their own behavior. I often think how that can be. The first thing I think about when I was sick is probably how at home I felt with like minded people . BAM was I wrong The thing about hypocrites is they always like to assume power, tell us how they protect us, while fking everyone else up around them by not doing the same things they professed we did or other crazy things we just don’t get to hear thats equally squat.. Do they have a mulitple choice 12 step group, the ones that have more then three listings/ descriptions? It seems like some of these things are interconnected. I like the ones where they hook up afterwards .and then do what that were not suppose to do by going. .. "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work. I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live. We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out. Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization. forget I said all that. I was hungry.. wow , I am sorry you had to hear that.

Response:

"Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work. I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live. We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out. Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

OT [humor]: Homophobia associated with homosexual arousal.

admin — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -v husk wrote:

NYC XYZ wrote: What are you afraid will happen if gays are treated as equal humans by all societies? In what sense are they "equal"? They’re equal before the law as it is. But this gay lobby wants to brainwash folks into thinking that their mutation or defect is not that but perfectly normal. Look up evolutionary biology. We are all here because of mutations/defects. Would you agree that we are, therefore, all unnormal or unnatural? If so then, then homosexuality is just as "unnormal" as brown hair, a tongue that can be rolled, etc. So what’s your beef?

Many years ago I read of some experimental findings in which some mice in a cage would begin to show homosexual tendencies when the population of the cage rose above a certain number. I don’t know if this has been replicated at all. I find it an interesting idea that evolutionary biology has built in homosexuality as a safeguard mechanism to prevent population growth depleting available resources. According to a former French Minister of Culture (I think it was) the incidence of homosexuality in the UK is currently 1 in 4 among males. If this is true, it would also seem to support the same idea, since the UK is an extremely overcrowded island. Not to mention prisons, which are by definition overcrowded and seem to contain a far higher than average incidence of homosexuality among inmates. What would be interesting to discover is the mechanism by which the homosexuality gene is "switched on" in individuals in cases where there is overpopulation and the threat of reduced resource allocation. Is it mediated by subjective perception? In this case, one would expect people to experience leanings towards homosexuality in situations where one is surrounded by large numbers of people and where resources are perceived to be scarce. A possible example of this might be in supermarket queues five minutes before closing. It might be interesting to conduct a study similar to the one quoted to find out whether people standing at the end of long queues feel more homosexually-inclined than those being promptly served in almost-empty stores. My guess would be that the results would be quite eloquent.

Response:

Mobile Parakeet Gender Uncertainty Generator wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

v husk wrote: NYC XYZ wrote: What are you afraid will happen if gays are treated as equal humans by all societies? In what sense are they "equal"? They’re equal before the law as it is. But this gay lobby wants to brainwash folks into thinking that their mutation or defect is not that but perfectly normal. Look up evolutionary biology. We are all here because of mutations/defects. Would you agree that we are, therefore, all unnormal or unnatural? If so then, then homosexuality is just as "unnormal" as brown hair, a tongue that can be rolled, etc. So what’s your beef? Many years ago I read of some experimental findings in which some mice in a cage would begin to show homosexual tendencies when the population of the cage rose above a certain number. I don’t know if this has been replicated at all. I find it an interesting idea that evolutionary biology has built in homosexuality as a safeguard mechanism to prevent population growth depleting available resources. According to a former French Minister of Culture (I think it was) the incidence of homosexuality in the UK is currently 1 in 4 among males. If this is true, it would also seem to support the same idea, since the UK is an extremely overcrowded island. Not to mention prisons, which are by definition overcrowded and seem to contain a far higher than average incidence of homosexuality among inmates. What would be interesting to discover is the mechanism by which the homosexuality gene is "switched on" in individuals in cases where there is overpopulation and the threat of reduced resource allocation. Is it mediated by subjective perception? In this case, one would expect people to experience leanings towards homosexuality in situations where one is surrounded by large numbers of people and where resources are perceived to be scarce. A possible example of this might be in supermarket queues five minutes before closing. It might be interesting to conduct a study similar to the one quoted to find out whether people standing at the end of long queues feel more homosexually-inclined than those being promptly served in almost-empty stores. My guess would be that the results would be quite eloquent.

That’s a very interesting point! I read something (can’t remember where) about the possibility that homosexuality benefitted the community by adding working hands without adding children also (which then require resources to raise).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -v husk wrote:

Mobile Parakeet Gender Uncertainty Generator wrote: v husk wrote: NYC XYZ wrote: What are you afraid will happen if gays are treated as equal humans by all societies? In what sense are they "equal"? They’re equal before the law as it is. But this gay lobby wants to brainwash folks into thinking that their mutation or defect is not that but perfectly normal. Look up evolutionary biology. We are all here because of mutations/defects. Would you agree that we are, therefore, all unnormal or unnatural? If so then, then homosexuality is just as "unnormal" as brown hair, a tongue that can be rolled, etc. So what’s your beef? Many years ago I read of some experimental findings in which some mice in a cage would begin to show homosexual tendencies when the population of the cage rose above a certain number. I don’t know if this has been replicated at all. I find it an interesting idea that evolutionary biology has built in homosexuality as a safeguard mechanism to prevent population growth depleting available resources. According to a former French Minister of Culture (I think it was) the incidence of homosexuality in the UK is currently 1 in 4 among males. If this is true, it would also seem to support the same idea, since the UK is an extremely overcrowded island. Not to mention prisons, which are by definition overcrowded and seem to contain a far higher than average incidence of homosexuality among inmates. What would be interesting to discover is the mechanism by which the homosexuality gene is "switched on" in individuals in cases where there is overpopulation and the threat of reduced resource allocation. Is it mediated by subjective perception? In this case, one would expect people to experience leanings towards homosexuality in situations where one is surrounded by large numbers of people and where resources are perceived to be scarce. A possible example of this might be in supermarket queues five minutes before closing. It might be interesting to conduct a study similar to the one quoted to find out whether people standing at the end of long queues feel more homosexually-inclined than those being promptly served in almost-empty stores. My guess would be that the results would be quite eloquent. That’s a very interesting point!

It wasn’t meant to be. It was just an excuse to delight myself imagining volunteers’ penile circumference being measured while standing in supermarket queues (preferably this measurement would be taken by nubile female researchers in cute white coats, though this might prejudice the results to some degree.)

Response:

I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you. Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW

Response:

RonW wrote:

I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference.

College students are cheap and plentiful for this kind of research. -M

Response:

"RonW"

wrote in message

news:a826dc4d0871dd93fe7540e4042fe5e6@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you. Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW

Would you ignore the entire hetero population if a straight guy treated you poorly?

Response:

According to his extensive research/surveys in the 40s and

50s, "pure" heterosexuality is a minority at either end of the scale. http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/images/kinsey_scale.jpg

Correction. Pure heterosexuality is a minority at one end of the scale and pure homosexuality is a minority at the other end of the scale. Ron, maybe because you’re a pure hetero, you are polarized with a pure homo?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Troll wrote:

"lisa"

You don’t like what the research shows because you’re a closet fag. No one could hate women as much as you do and be even close to being straight. ZenDog

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Troll wrote:

"lisa"

Not sure what movie you’re talking about, but here are excerpts from Kinsey’s studies. http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/research/ak-data.html#Scope

Response:

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively

heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

My cat’s breath smells like cat food.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Troll wrote:

"lisa"

Kinsey wasn’t gay. If anything he was bi. Perhaps he was trying to make the idea of bisexuality acceptable for the population, or maybe he was self-centered. I guess we’ll never know.

Response:

crfan wrote:

"Michaela Mackenzie" wrote Gee Deja Vu

Your deja is rather vu too. – Michaela

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -crfan wrote:

"Michaela Mackenzie" wrote crfan wrote: "RonW" wrote I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you. Dunno. IME gay people are often challenged by "black and white" people – it’s like they want to be the one to ‘make them gay’. There are other reasons why they may not have bothered with you – perhaps they perceived you as patronising them? Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW Would you ignore the entire hetero population if a straight guy treated you poorly? Only if it turns out they all kicked their dogs. In this case however, I’m sure it’s only a metaphorical dog being kicked. – Michaela Metaphysical is more like it.

Petulant? – Michaela

Response:

"Michaela Mackenzie"

wrote in message

news:1136792129.140337.30290@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

crfan wrote: "RonW" wrote I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you. Dunno. IME gay people are often challenged by "black and white" people – it’s like they want to be the one to ‘make them gay’. There are other reasons why they may not have bothered with you – perhaps they perceived you as patronising them? Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW Would you ignore the entire hetero population if a straight guy treated you poorly? Only if it turns out they all kicked their dogs. In this case however, I’m sure it’s only a metaphorical dog being kicked. – Michaela

Metaphysical is more like it.

Response:

"Michaela Mackenzie"

wrote in message

news:1136792266.218527.27990@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

not sure what’s happening here. sorry if reposting. crfan wrote: "RonW" wrote I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you. Dunno. IME gay people are often challenged by "black and white" people – it’s like they want to be the one to ‘make them gay’. There are other reasons why they may not have bothered with you – perhaps they perceived you as patronising them? Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW Would you ignore the entire hetero population if a straight guy treated you poorly? Only if it turns out they all kicked their dogs. In this case however, I’m sure it’s only a metaphorical dog being kicked. – Michaela

Gee Deja Vu

Response:

not sure what’s happening here. sorry if reposting. crfan wrote:

"RonW" wrote I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you.

Dunno. IME gay people are often challenged by "black and white" people – it’s like they want to be the one to ‘make them gay’. There are other reasons why they may not have bothered with you – perhaps they perceived you as patronising them?

Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW Would you ignore the entire hetero population if a straight guy treated you poorly?

Only if it turns out they all kicked their dogs. In this case however, I’m sure it’s only a metaphorical dog being kicked. – Michaela

Response:

crfan wrote:

"RonW" wrote I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you.

Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either. RW Would you ignore the entire hetero population if a straight guy treated you poorly?

Only if it turns out they all kicked their dogs. In this case however, I’m sure it’s only a metaphorical dog being kicked. – Michaela

Response:

lisa wrote:

I’m not at all surprised. The more the homophobic tries to fight their attraction the angrier they get because they can’t get rid of it. Being unable to get rid of it internally they try to extinguish it externally — through gay bashing.

The funny thing is how when I use this logic to say that Hitler was Jewish so many people get offended.

I bet Jerry F*lwell takes his bath with a dozen purple teletubbies!

I hope that pig gets fucked by faggots.

Kinsey’s Scale says that most everybody is somewhere along the bi continuum.

Freud used to say this, too, and Freud’s been discredited on many, many counts.

According to his extensive research/surveys in the 40s and 50s, "pure" heterosexuality is a minority at either end of the scale. http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/images/kinsey_scale.jpg

Yeah, sure, which is why societies the world over are overwhelmingly hetero. This is why the gay lobby is so intensely hated by folks like me who normally don’t give a shit about faggotry. All kinds of bullshit so that they can feel better about their abnormality.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NYC XYZ wrote:

lisa wrote: I’m not at all surprised. The more the homophobic tries to fight their attraction the angrier they get because they can’t get rid of it. Being unable to get rid of it internally they try to extinguish it externally — through gay bashing. The funny thing is how when I use this logic to say that Hitler was Jewish so many people get offended. I bet Jerry F*lwell takes his bath with a dozen purple teletubbies! I hope that pig gets fucked by faggots. Kinsey’s Scale says that most everybody is somewhere along the bi continuum. Freud used to say this, too, and Freud’s been discredited on many, many counts.

Freud had his own issues, including cocaine addiction. Perhaps Kinsey did too. It doesn’t mean either or both reached invalid conclusions about gender orientation.

According to his extensive research/surveys in the 40s and 50s, "pure" heterosexuality is a minority at either end of the scale. http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/images/kinsey_scale.jpg Yeah, sure, which is why societies the world over are overwhelmingly hetero.

Do you think it’s possible that most people are varying degrees of bisexuality, and either don’t act on it or keep it a secret for various reasons? Do you believe that societies the world over are intolerant of non-heterosexuals?

This is why the gay lobby is so intensely hated by folks like me who normally don’t give a shit about faggotry. All kinds of bullshit so that they can feel better about their abnormality.

What are you afraid will happen if gays are treated as equal humans by all societies? rgds, lisa

Response:

lisa wrote:

Freud had his own issues, including cocaine addiction. Perhaps Kinsey did too. It doesn’t mean either or both reached invalid conclusions about gender orientation.

Sure, but by the same token, it doesn’t mean that simply ’cause they’re Freud or Kinsey that any given pronouncement of theirs on sex means anything at all.

Do you think it’s possible that most people are varying degrees of bisexuality, and either don’t act on it or keep it a secret for various reasons? Do you believe that societies the world over are intolerant of non-heterosexuals?

I understand the argument, but you know, if it’s sex we’re talking about here — something so powerful and quite fundamental to our human being (that is, our being human) — do you think it’s possible to suppress this in the name of "society" if it’s actually so widespread as the gay lobby likes to proclaim? Try this thought-experiment: would it be possible for a society to be intolerant of eating food or drinking water? How about wearing plaid, or denim? Or, conversely, would it be possible for a society to, for whatever reason, promote cropophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, etc.? Why not? ‘Cause those are not natural urges in normal people, that’s why. So if homosexuality/bisexuality is so nautral, how do you think it’s possible for so many societies to "suppress" them for so long? Even ancient Greece, a homosexual paradise to hear the gay lobby tell it, wasn’t majority homosexual.

What are you afraid will happen if gays are treated as equal humans by all societies?

In what sense are they "equal"? They’re equal before the law as it is. But this gay lobby wants to brainwash folks into thinking that their mutation or defect is not that but perfectly normal. Hence they got to go down that slippery slope of "everyone’s bisexual" (BTW, I guess you conveniently missed the latest research which showed that among its sample subjects of self-confessed bisexual men there was no such thing — they were either homo or hetero [this same study found evidence that women were susceptible to sexual arousal through either homo or hetero imagery, but that it was not because of the homo or hetero nature of the images but due to their broader sexual nature]…look it up; it came out this year).

rgds, lisa

I’ve personally been hit on by faggots and it’s the most disgusting feeling. Like a little girl being propositioned by an old man, I imagine. Just makes you want to punch ‘em in the face. See, no one is afraid of faggots. It’s just pure disgust. Like, geez, what kind of man are you? It’s like with crazy people who like eating boogers or shit or all that other abnormal psychology stuff — I ain’t afraid of ‘em; just don’t want their company. And in terms of society at large, the more scarce they make their lifestyles the better. Yeah, some of my best friends were homosexuals…and blacks, etc. Doesn’t mean I don’t call ‘em on their bullshit when it’s the time to do so. I look at them as human beings first and foremost — but if they want to present themselves as stereotypes, if they want to make their homosexuality or race an issue, then fine, that’s how you want me to think of you, that’s how I’ll react to you. Needless to say, I don’t keep ‘em around anymore. =)

Response:

RonW wrote:

I’m kind of wondering what kinds of people would actually go take tests like this? Where there ‘monitoring’ penile circumference. From what I can tell, they’re psych students themselves (and often

students in general) and poor folks that could use the money. A very few have no connection to psychology, nor need the money, and are simply very curious and have nothing better to do. Me, I almost participated in a study myself — was looking into parachuting this year, and a local outfit had some deal with a local college where you get to jump for free if you agreed to an overnight three-day study to monitor your body.

As for myself, I have had the privilege of having some gay acquaintances in my history. And while they seemed to get along quite well with my wife and son, they tended to not really like me at all for whatever the reason. I’ve tried being nice, respectful, and polite – and in return I found I received rudeness in alot of cases. I couldn’t figure out why either – I asked my wife why it is that this happens to me. She tends to believe that gay men can sense a person who is ‘black and white’ and then proceeded to tell me that I was B & K. I felt like wtf? These guys are so pushy about getting people to accept them, and then when you try and do that, they turn their noses up at you.

A lot of them tend to be very educated, is all. The more educated you are, the more snobbish you’ll wind up. Me, I’m a people-person but I can’t help disliking folks who, for example, eat on trains and busses, or eat on the street, or yap on their cellphones or constantly check it (I dumped a beauty queen once just for that, and avoid my own sister, too, ’cause she’s forever smoking and checking her goddamned cellphone and putting our conversations on hold since someone somewhere is calling her up)…etc.

Moral of the story, I have since those days decided (and do) ignore the gay population. There’s no love loss between us either.

I don’t understand why they makes themselves such an issue. It’s a disgusting lifestyle, but fuck it, let ‘em loose on their dogs in addition to their hamsters and gerbils if that’s what they like. But why bring it to me? It’s like the obnoxious spics and niggers who like blasting their shit all hours of the day and night. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

RW

Response:

Well, its only disgusting when they’re in your face about it. Honestly, I probably am like most people I think, where we really could care less what ‘they’ do on their own time. (Own time in this context means privacy of their own home.) I also think it goes beyond the educational theory you mentioned. Although, its true that over educated people sometimes can be hard to relate to – the gay community in my experience has their own little culture that the only way you can fit in is to either be gay, or female. Straight black and white thinkers – no matter how good our intentions are when it comes to accepting ‘them’ aren’t going to be accepted by them. I have a generally negative view of the gay community anyway so I’m not unwilling to admit that its possible some of those inner feelings come out in ‘bad vibes’ even during my attempts at politeness and respect. My experience: those involved in the gay community tend to be heavily involved in the various gay causes – gay rights. Then theres the part I feel that gay (men mostly) are into this lifestyle strictly for the sex. (That part I choose to not think about.) And while I know our society frowns on gays, their constant ‘in your face’ approach is very unappealing. Top it off with the rudeness and disrespect I mentioned, and I end up with an ‘I don’t give a damn about you or your cause’ attitude. And I don’t. RW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NYC XYZ wrote:

lisa wrote: Freud had his own issues, including cocaine addiction. Perhaps Kinsey did too. It doesn’t mean either or both reached invalid conclusions about gender orientation. Sure, but by the same token, it doesn’t mean that simply ’cause they’re Freud or Kinsey that any given pronouncement of theirs on sex means anything at all. Do you think it’s possible that most people are varying degrees of bisexuality, and either don’t act on it or keep it a secret for various reasons? Do you believe that societies the world over are intolerant of non-heterosexuals? I understand the argument, but you know, if it’s sex we’re talking about here — something so powerful and quite fundamental to our human being (that is, our being human) — do you think it’s possible to suppress this in the name of "society" if it’s actually so widespread as the gay lobby likes to proclaim? Try this thought-experiment: would it be possible for a society to be intolerant of eating food or drinking water? How about wearing plaid, or denim? Or, conversely, would it be possible for a society to, for whatever reason, promote cropophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, etc.? Why not? ‘Cause those are not natural urges in normal people, that’s why. So if homosexuality/bisexuality is so nautral, how do you think it’s possible for so many societies to "suppress" them for so long? Even ancient Greece, a homosexual paradise to hear the gay lobby tell it, wasn’t majority homosexual. What are you afraid will happen if gays are treated as equal humans by all societies? In what sense are they "equal"? They’re equal before the law as it is. But this gay lobby wants to brainwash folks into thinking that their mutation or defect is not that but perfectly normal.

Look up evolutionary biology. We are all here because of mutations/defects. Would you agree that we are, therefore, all unnormal or unnatural? If so then, then homosexuality is just as "unnormal" as brown hair, a tongue that can be rolled, etc. So what’s your beef?

Hence they got to go down that slippery slope of "everyone’s bisexual" (BTW, I guess you conveniently missed the latest research which showed that among its sample subjects of self-confessed bisexual men there was no such thing — they were either homo or hetero [this same study found evidence that women were susceptible to sexual arousal through either homo or hetero imagery, but that it was not because of the homo or hetero nature of the images but due to their broader sexual nature]…look it up; it came out this year).

"Everyone’s bisexual" – no. But some people being bisexual – yes, definitely. Some people are attracted to people of both sexes, no matter how much you want to polarise them into gay/straight. Do you have a cite for this research you mention? The info you give isn’t enough to find it.

rgds, lisa I’ve personally been hit on by faggots and it’s the most disgusting feeling. Like a little girl being propositioned by an old man, I imagine.

Attempt to link homosexuality and paedophilia noted. Why on earth would it make you think of this? Admittedly, you’re acting like a little girl, but that’s as far as I can stretch the analogy. Your analogy has nothing to do with any (imagined) evil of homosexuality and everything to do with your own desire to villify gays.

Just makes you want to punch ‘em in the face.

Are you really in NY? Long way from redneck country.

See, no one is afraid of faggots.

Me thinkest thou dost protest too much. *You* are afraid of faggots.

It’s just pure disgust. Like, geez, what kind of man are you?

Well, the kind that is attracted to the same sex I suppose. That seems to bother you. Why? Everyone I know who is secure in their own sexuality doesn’t give two flying hoots about a gay person fancying them or what they do with consenting adults. But then again, you’d rather seem to enjoy imagining gay people as being molesters of children. I wonder why? Why are you so interested in demonising gay people? What the hell have they done to you?

It’s like with crazy people who like eating boogers or shit or all that other abnormal psychology stuff — I ain’t afraid of ‘em; just don’t want their company. And in terms of society at large, the more scarce they make their lifestyles the better.

They should just pretend they’re hetero and live their life as a lie, eh? Just to keep you happy.

Yeah, some of my best friends were homosexuals…and blacks, etc.

Oh dear. Why doesn’t this sound very convincing?

Doesn’t mean I don’t call ‘em on their bullshit

what "bullshit"?

when it’s the time to do so. I look at them as human beings first and foremost —

bullshit

In what way do they make it an issue? By not being in the closet and protecting poor little you? By daring to be openly gay? And in what way would someone wanting you to think of them as gay (for instance) necessetate a (your) homophobic reaction? Remember, some people can actually handle the fact that people are gay (and openly so).

Needless to say, I don’t keep ‘em around anymore. =)

Certainly seems like you’re afraid of them to me. Maybe you’re suppressing your own latent homosexual desires. There’s nothing wrong with being gay.

Response:

Adams, H. E., L. W. Wright Jr. and B. A. Lohr, 1996. Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal? _Journal of Abnormal Psychology_ 105(3): 440-445. Abstract: The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

Response:

Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Adams, H. E., L. W. Wright Jr. and B. A. Lohr, 1996. Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal? _Journal of Abnormal Psychology_ 105(3): 440-445. Abstract: The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

I’m not at all surprised. The more the homophobic tries to fight their attraction the angrier they get because they can’t get rid of it. Being unable to get rid of it internally they try to extinguish it externally — through gay bashing. I bet Jerry F*lwell takes his bath with a dozen purple teletubbies! Kinsey’s Scale says that most everybody is somewhere along the bi continuum. According to his extensive research/surveys in the 40s and 50s, "pure" heterosexuality is a minority at either end of the scale. http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/images/kinsey_scale.jpg

Response:

Unbounded universe, Jesus and Steven Hawking

admin — Sun, 23 Oct 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

millipede man wrote:

xdressing is fun —

Response:

wrote in message

news:1130094859.620154.16780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com…

[nothing of importance...] Ilya Shambat.

Please stop crossposting your messages.

Response:

At the center of the visible universe was seen a cross, and the voice of Julia saying "Do you want this?" I kept coming back and forth and back and forth and going back to snares and she was unhappy and then I came forth and she was saying partially is not good enough so I started writing and I saw her energy reaching to different parts of the world with her beautiful warm compassionate heart and I put my soul inside of her heart and was taken to the center. I saw something else: That it did not appear a singularity but rather that it was always there and that’s it, that there need not be a beginning or an end but rather eternity, and it did not feel foreign or boggled the mind as does the idea of universe sometime beginning (as was told me, we are comfortable with the idea of time going on forever but not it beginning) – but this was something else: That this has been always, and for once it felt not foreign or unponderable but seemed the most natural thing in the world, indeed the most comfortable thing in the world – as natural as is water and air. Here was eternity itself: A subject that seems totally strange to comprehension, but in this moment – at this point and place – appeared the most natural – indeed the most obvious – thing possible. It has always been; that indeed is its nature. All time and space belongs to it – all time and space is in it and it is in all time and space. To think of something being before what I was seeing is as meaningless as it is to think of there being south below south pole. At this place time and space merged and was eternally self-existing. It felt eternity – it was eternity. It was not that there was something before it; it’s that nothing COULD be before it, because in it all dimensions of visible universe were enfolded. Not 15 billion years, not big bang, not expansion and collapse – no, not beginning and end either – not circular Eastern time nor Western linear time nor some Hegelian synthesis – but something only here, encoded in what I was seeing and feeling, was the preceding and consummation of all existence; and it felt the most comfortable – indeed the most obvious, the most simple, and most beautiful – thing in the world. It felt like any new thought – a "how could I have ever missed something so obvious?" Not piercing like a singularity or edgy like the top of a turtle; more like a bed of roses – or so it seemed with her being there and asking me to come to her and share with her the beauty and inspiration of which she knew. I lost myself in her arms, and through her shone a luminosity. She had tied herself to the cross, in order that I go where she had gone and from what she drew her inspiration. It was not only the cross on which Jesus died. It was a cross in which were contained the dimensions – that radiated through the cosmos and in which all was indeed one. I had listened to hymn saying such things as "O beautiful cross" and I thought how could they be possibly glorifying something that was a monument not to God or to Jesus but to the Roman order that crucified criminals, but this was something else: Cross as the beginning and continuity of all time and space. And once again, the feeling it called for was not anything that could have been expected of such a place. It was this: That eternity of the pre-existing seemed natural and easily apparent and indeed obvious. It did not start before, sometime in the past; it was right there, right before me. And it did not feel at all like a sharp point. It felt soft and continuous and in it the four dimensions – three spatial one and the time – came together and became a cross. When I was a kid and read astronomy books and tried to understand what existed beyond the edges of universe, I thought that the universe beyond its edges must be totally filled with light. I thought that the darkness had to end somewhere, and that the light – endless, boundless light – not like the sun but like the sky in the day – was what stood at the end of the universe and spread beyond and beyond. It was inconceivable to me to see infinite darkness; but infinite light seemed natural and obvious and arose inside me no wonder on whether it had an end: It was endless and that’s all. Whether this idea came from my experience, as a creature on earth, living within an atmosphere that is light during the day, or from some fundamentally optimistic view of the world, or an evolutionary adaptation necessary for life, or an ancestral memory, is not of significance; it may be as natural for someone else to see the universe beyond its edges as being total darkness as it was for me to see it as being total light. It may even be natural for people to see the universe as having an end, and that’s it – there’s nothing beyond that, dark, light, polka dots, perfect forms, stars and stripes or hammer and sickle. However here was something else: in what I was seeing, was all that was or could be. And it felt completely natural and completely real. I tried to find out what came before; I tried to find out what was around this. I was seeing white light, all-engulfing white light, and thoughts saying "Stay There." Aroused light-forms, unsettled light-forms, stay there, and then something else: Light brighter than sun and then again, feeling unendurable but yet again totally loving, as if this was the most natural thing to experience and how could I have missed this at all. I had discovered that different people had different visions of God, and through their prayers and thoughts – or through my deliberate attempts to experience and understand them – I could experience all of them, and many of them were quite different from one another, some loving and wise and compassionate and others shrill and authoritarian; and once while in a hypnosis class I had discovered one that was far more powerful than them all and something that did not appear a fabrication of mind at all – it was a screaming sun, it was as Bible said was totally full of light but not light that is easy to endure and not exactly good news either for most. It was all these things: Luminous, demanding and very difficult to endure; its compassion came later. There was even time when a pagan memory activated and I felt Jesus stopping me saying that soul was his & his energy, firm and luminous. I was told that there are many Jesuses, but true Jesus speaks word of God – and I asked how hard would it be for someone else to speak word of God and claim to be Jesus or coming from Jesus – and I was told that true Jesus speaks in your heart. Well. This light was all-consuming, and it could not make sense that there could be to it a start or a finish, or that it could be caused by anything else, or that anything could be despite it. This was beyond timespace; enfolding timespace. The cross was the inspiration of timespace; and light was its enflodment. The luminosity that Plato claimed to be available through noesis – through studying the shapes on the walls of the cave until he figured out what’s out there and was then liberated into the light – which light was surrounded by perfect forms that through their working among each other created the true world of mind – came through the cross. Which was the beginning of timespace – indeed the South Pole of timespace – and around which was the Self-Existing One. The morning of this day I walked into a church, and the black priest – who had been on the streets for two years and was guided by God until he now runs DC’s biggest addiction-treatment center – had given a fiery sermon about the right way to follow Christ, and how it is about loving people before all else. I had been studying the dichotomy that appeared far more than chance rate: "Mankind is great it’s people that are the problem" vs. "Mankind is vile but people are quite all right" – and then I was thinking about a trickle-up spirituality (based on trickle-down economics): Reaching first those who are in the worst places (untouchables, people in absolute poverty, prisoners, outcasts, women in horrible domestic situations) and then coming up gradually to all else: In the same way as trickle-down economics worked opposite. Thus we have David’s Star turned over: The triangle of matter intersecting the triangle of spirit – and together make the body of life. Through this inversion is therefore found a path for the two aspects of human existence to merge. Merge-and-refine, merge-and-refine, and lead to luminosity. When I came back I did what I’d never done before and put on sandals, and then I experienced the peace-and-love hippie mindset (I’ve done protest against social oppression and I’ve done communing with nature and I’ve done Burningman stuff and romanticism but never got the peace and love thing until yesterday evening). It was a mood of complete – well, peace and openness and taking out of all harshness and being able to be completely free inside. I was talking to my friend Mike who was born on Haight in 1969 to hippies who died next year, and he was perpetually angry at everything while trying to practice the ideology of tolerance and compasion and standing up for people’s rights – and what I recognized was, here was someone standing up for a paradise; for a world that was dreamed of and fought for and brutally demolished. The pieces of that world find me; I also seek them out. Perhaps they want me to piece it back together, or at least take the inspiration and animate it and make it produce lasting fruit. To take it from status of nostalgia to status of continuous aspect of life on the world – not necessarily in the hippie lifestyle or "revolution," but rather in artwork and relationships, where it can live sustainably and beautifully while allowing the civilization to go on and enriching the human existence long-term. Making the beauty an ongoing and sustainable aspect of human existence. And with it giving light the living and inspiring the yet-to-live. Leading to creation of masterpieces … read more »

Response:

Unbounded universe, Jesus and Steven Hawking

admin — Sun, 23 Oct 2005 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

wrote in message

news:1130094859.620154.16780@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com…

[nothing of importance...] Ilya Shambat.

Please stop crossposting your messages.

Response:

millipede man wrote:

xdressing is fun —

Response:

At the center of the visible universe was seen a cross, and the voice of Julia saying "Do you want this?" I kept coming back and forth and back and forth and going back to snares and she was unhappy and then I came forth and she was saying partially is not good enough so I started writing and I saw her energy reaching to different parts of the world with her beautiful warm compassionate heart and I put my soul inside of her heart and was taken to the center. I saw something else: That it did not appear a singularity but rather that it was always there and that’s it, that there need not be a beginning or an end but rather eternity, and it did not feel foreign or boggled the mind as does the idea of universe sometime beginning (as was told me, we are comfortable with the idea of time going on forever but not it beginning) – but this was something else: That this has been always, and for once it felt not foreign or unponderable but seemed the most natural thing in the world, indeed the most comfortable thing in the world – as natural as is water and air. Here was eternity itself: A subject that seems totally strange to comprehension, but in this moment – at this point and place – appeared the most natural – indeed the most obvious – thing possible. It has always been; that indeed is its nature. All time and space belongs to it – all time and space is in it and it is in all time and space. To think of something being before what I was seeing is as meaningless as it is to think of there being south below south pole. At this place time and space merged and was eternally self-existing. It felt eternity – it was eternity. It was not that there was something before it; it’s that nothing COULD be before it, because in it all dimensions of visible universe were enfolded. Not 15 billion years, not big bang, not expansion and collapse – no, not beginning and end either – not circular Eastern time nor Western linear time nor some Hegelian synthesis – but something only here, encoded in what I was seeing and feeling, was the preceding and consummation of all existence; and it felt the most comfortable – indeed the most obvious, the most simple, and most beautiful – thing in the world. It felt like any new thought – a "how could I have ever missed something so obvious?" Not piercing like a singularity or edgy like the top of a turtle; more like a bed of roses – or so it seemed with her being there and asking me to come to her and share with her the beauty and inspiration of which she knew. I lost myself in her arms, and through her shone a luminosity. She had tied herself to the cross, in order that I go where she had gone and from what she drew her inspiration. It was not only the cross on which Jesus died. It was a cross in which were contained the dimensions – that radiated through the cosmos and in which all was indeed one. I had listened to hymn saying such things as "O beautiful cross" and I thought how could they be possibly glorifying something that was a monument not to God or to Jesus but to the Roman order that crucified criminals, but this was something else: Cross as the beginning and continuity of all time and space. And once again, the feeling it called for was not anything that could have been expected of such a place. It was this: That eternity of the pre-existing seemed natural and easily apparent and indeed obvious. It did not start before, sometime in the past; it was right there, right before me. And it did not feel at all like a sharp point. It felt soft and continuous and in it the four dimensions – three spatial one and the time – came together and became a cross. When I was a kid and read astronomy books and tried to understand what existed beyond the edges of universe, I thought that the universe beyond its edges must be totally filled with light. I thought that the darkness had to end somewhere, and that the light – endless, boundless light – not like the sun but like the sky in the day – was what stood at the end of the universe and spread beyond and beyond. It was inconceivable to me to see infinite darkness; but infinite light seemed natural and obvious and arose inside me no wonder on whether it had an end: It was endless and that’s all. Whether this idea came from my experience, as a creature on earth, living within an atmosphere that is light during the day, or from some fundamentally optimistic view of the world, or an evolutionary adaptation necessary for life, or an ancestral memory, is not of significance; it may be as natural for someone else to see the universe beyond its edges as being total darkness as it was for me to see it as being total light. It may even be natural for people to see the universe as having an end, and that’s it – there’s nothing beyond that, dark, light, polka dots, perfect forms, stars and stripes or hammer and sickle. However here was something else: in what I was seeing, was all that was or could be. And it felt completely natural and completely real. I tried to find out what came before; I tried to find out what was around this. I was seeing white light, all-engulfing white light, and thoughts saying "Stay There." Aroused light-forms, unsettled light-forms, stay there, and then something else: Light brighter than sun and then again, feeling unendurable but yet again totally loving, as if this was the most natural thing to experience and how could I have missed this at all. I had discovered that different people had different visions of God, and through their prayers and thoughts – or through my deliberate attempts to experience and understand them – I could experience all of them, and many of them were quite different from one another, some loving and wise and compassionate and others shrill and authoritarian; and once while in a hypnosis class I had discovered one that was far more powerful than them all and something that did not appear a fabrication of mind at all – it was a screaming sun, it was as Bible said was totally full of light but not light that is easy to endure and not exactly good news either for most. It was all these things: Luminous, demanding and very difficult to endure; its compassion came later. There was even time when a pagan memory activated and I felt Jesus stopping me saying that soul was his & his energy, firm and luminous. I was told that there are many Jesuses, but true Jesus speaks word of God – and I asked how hard would it be for someone else to speak word of God and claim to be Jesus or coming from Jesus – and I was told that true Jesus speaks in your heart. Well. This light was all-consuming, and it could not make sense that there could be to it a start or a finish, or that it could be caused by anything else, or that anything could be despite it. This was beyond timespace; enfolding timespace. The cross was the inspiration of timespace; and light was its enflodment. The luminosity that Plato claimed to be available through noesis – through studying the shapes on the walls of the cave until he figured out what’s out there and was then liberated into the light – which light was surrounded by perfect forms that through their working among each other created the true world of mind – came through the cross. Which was the beginning of timespace – indeed the South Pole of timespace – and around which was the Self-Existing One. The morning of this day I walked into a church, and the black priest – who had been on the streets for two years and was guided by God until he now runs DC’s biggest addiction-treatment center – had given a fiery sermon about the right way to follow Christ, and how it is about loving people before all else. I had been studying the dichotomy that appeared far more than chance rate: "Mankind is great it’s people that are the problem" vs. "Mankind is vile but people are quite all right" – and then I was thinking about a trickle-up spirituality (based on trickle-down economics): Reaching first those who are in the worst places (untouchables, people in absolute poverty, prisoners, outcasts, women in horrible domestic situations) and then coming up gradually to all else: In the same way as trickle-down economics worked opposite. Thus we have David’s Star turned over: The triangle of matter intersecting the triangle of spirit – and together make the body of life. Through this inversion is therefore found a path for the two aspects of human existence to merge. Merge-and-refine, merge-and-refine, and lead to luminosity. When I came back I did what I’d never done before and put on sandals, and then I experienced the peace-and-love hippie mindset (I’ve done protest against social oppression and I’ve done communing with nature and I’ve done Burningman stuff and romanticism but never got the peace and love thing until yesterday evening). It was a mood of complete – well, peace and openness and taking out of all harshness and being able to be completely free inside. I was talking to my friend Mike who was born on Haight in 1969 to hippies who died next year, and he was perpetually angry at everything while trying to practice the ideology of tolerance and compasion and standing up for people’s rights – and what I recognized was, here was someone standing up for a paradise; for a world that was dreamed of and fought for and brutally demolished. The pieces of that world find me; I also seek them out. Perhaps they want me to piece it back together, or at least take the inspiration and animate it and make it produce lasting fruit. To take it from status of nostalgia to status of continuous aspect of life on the world – not necessarily in the hippie lifestyle or "revolution," but rather in artwork and relationships, where it can live sustainably and beautifully while allowing the civilization to go on and enriching the human existence long-term. Making the beauty an ongoing and sustainable aspect of human existence. And with it giving light the living and inspiring the yet-to-live. Leading to creation of masterpieces … read more »

Response: