Question:

before Gary comes on and says I am encouraging this… We know Gary likes to point fingers like good old Elliott without exactly telling us whats wrong with them selves or even recognizing any of the same things in their own behavior. I often think how that can be. The first thing I think about when I was sick is probably how at home I felt with like minded people . BAM  was I wrong The thing about hypocrites is they always like to assume power, tell us how they protect us, while fking everyone else up around them by not doing the same things they professed we  did  or other crazy things we just don’t get to hear thats equally squat..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do they have a mulitple choice 12 step group, the ones that have more then three listings/ descriptions? It seems like some of these things are interconnected. I like the ones where they hook up afterwards .and then do what that were not suppose to do by going. .. "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work.  I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live.  We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out.  Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

"Recovery Options for the New Year" Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search.

is Nymphomania Anonymous anywhere in tha mix? i don’t wanna recover, i just want directions to tha meetin’. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics

<<<<<snippers anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous

   CHIRPEES?   (it’s a Canarial disease.. it’s unTWEETable… i RECTUM they bettah get to tha DICKtor’n ASS him aBUTT it.. maybe he can FINGER it out..) i ain’t sure a newsgroups gunna do tha trick on thissun.

Response:

Do they have a mulitple choice 12 step group, the ones that have more then three listings/ descriptions? It seems like some of these things are interconnected. I like the ones where they hook up afterwards .and then do what that were not suppose to do by going. ..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work.  I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live.  We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out.  Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

Anonymous anonymous – a group for people who are in too many 12 step you a year of joy and fulfillment, both personal and spiritual, as you pursue your goals, which are certainly of the highest calling. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work.  I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live.  We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out.  Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – before Gary comes on and says I am encouraging this… We know Gary likes to point fingers like good old Elliott without exactly telling us whats wrong with them selves or even recognizing any of the same things in their own behavior. I often think how that can be. The first thing I think about when I was sick is probably how at home I felt with like minded people . BAM  was I wrong The thing about hypocrites is they always like to assume power, tell us how they protect us, while fking everyone else up around them by not doing the same things they professed we  did  or other crazy things we just don’t get to hear thats equally squat.. Do they have a mulitple choice 12 step group, the ones that have more then three listings/ descriptions? It seems like some of these things are interconnected. I like the ones where they hook up afterwards .and then do what that were not suppose to do by going. .. "Recovery Options for the New Year" The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work.  I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live.  We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out.  Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization. forget I said all that. I was hungry.. wow , I am sorry you had to hear that.

Response:

"Recovery Options for the New Year"  The New Year is coming up and many of us make New Year’s resolutions, so I’d like to take this time to awaken those in need to some options for recovery if you suffer from addictions as I do. I do not need to wait to the years end to take self survey, since doing written inventory work and introspection is part of my 12 step work.  I started with 12 step programs in 1974 and am now in 8 – 12 step programs myself. The 12 step programs branched out from Alcoholics Anonymous and all operate more or less along the same principles of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of AA. A thing is addictive for me when I lose control of it and the addiction has control of me. Is the activity placing unreasonable demands on my time and energy, will it place me in legal jeopardy or endanger my mental, physical or spiritual health? There are more specific questions that each 12 step program uses in its literature that can guide you. We must remember that not having control over a certain area once in a a while does not make a person an addict. Even normal people drink too much once in a while, normal people might eat too much once in a while and normal people spend or have sex or spend too much once in a while. The difference between addicts and normal people is, normal people can stop when they see they have gone too far, whereas addicts cannot stop even under penalty of death. An important thing to remember with recovery is the 3-D’s: Desire, Determination and Diligence. Desire: Desire is the foundation for all recovery quests. You cannot help someone without the desire in them to be helped. Desire is what gets us taking that first step in the right direction when all seems hopeless. Have you every tried to give advice or help someone in need and they respond: "I don’t care." They lack the desire or at least this is what they say. Desire must come from within, you cannot force someone to change, they must change themselves. But, before a desire to change can be manifested, one must come to a "realization" that a change needs to occur in ones life. Determination: Determination serves two purposes here. When something is "determined" it is accepted as fact. We have determined that we are powerless over our addiction and our lives are unmanageable. We have determined we must abstain from certain people, places or things that we cannot comfortably have in our lives. We are in the process of determining a new set of rules on how to live.  We have also determined what injuries we have caused and what needs to be repaired through taking personal inventory. Determination serves a second purpose and that is it keeps us on the long road to recovery. We cannot keep on this long road without being determined to change our lives day in day out.  Whether it is debt recovery, clutter, restructuring our complex lives or losing weight it all takes time and determination to stay on the path of recovery. Many distractions, detours and set backs along the way, but we should always be determined to keep pointed in the direction of recovery. Diligence: Diligence keeps us from going backwards once we finally arrive at the recovery place we are aiming for. It takes diligence once we get to where we want to be to maintain that serene spot, otherwise we fall back on our old "natural" ways of living. Once you get sober and abstinent from your drug of choice, once you lose the fat, once you pay off your debts, once you clean up the clutter, it takes diligence to keep you that way. Most of the following 12 Step programs are on the web via a search. ADD / ADHD Anonymous Adult Children of Alcoholics Alcoholics Anonymous Al-Anon & Ala-Teen Arts Anonymous BODA (Business Owners DA) Cancer Anonymous Clutterers Anonymous Co-Anon Cocaine Anonymous Co-Dependents of Sex Addicts CODA (Codependents Anon) Compulsive Eaters Anonymous / H.O.W. Computer Addicts Anonymous Couples Anonymous Crystal Meth Anonymous Debtors Anonymous Divorce Anonymous Dual Recovery Anonymous Emotions Anonymous Emotional Health Anonymous Families Anonymous Fear Of Success Anonymous Food Addict Anonymous Gam-Anon Gamblers Anonymous Herpes Anonymous He-She Anonymous HIV Anonymous Incest Survivors Anonymous Jews in Recovery Lesbians Anonymous Marijuana Anonymous Manic Depressive Anonymous Messies Anonymous Money Anonymous Nar-Anon Family Groups Narcotics Anonymous NA Nicotine Anonymous meetings Nine Step Pagans (I won’t discriminate even if they only use 9 steps.) Overachievers Anonymous Overeaters Anonymous Obsessive Compulsive Anonymous Parents Anonymous Pills Anonymous Procrastinators Anonymous Rageaholics Anonymous Recoveries Anonymous Trauma Anonymous Twelve Steps for Pagans S-Anon Sex Addicts Anonymous Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous Sexaholics Anonymous Sexual Compulsives Anonymous Spenders Anonymous Survivors of Incest Anonymous Vulgarity Anonymous Vulganon Workaholics Anonymous Wishing You All a Healthy and Peaceful New Year, V (Male) A Christian-Buddhist practitioner living a life of Voluntary Simplicity and grateful recovering Debtor, Drug, Alcohol and Substance Abuser, Compulsive Overeater, Clutterer, Hoarder, Rageaholic, Speculative Gambler, Compulsive Spender, Sex and Sensation Addict. For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

Response:

Question:

"eerie rodent of unusual size & typing ability" <ee…@biteme.com

wrote in

news:Xns9475647803C8BfreakingA@68.6.19.6:

mevyhetal <n…@spam.ok wrote in news:Xns947570B8E8E3Enospamok@68.1.17.6: masturbate really violently. lol.         Excellent idea.

hehe                    

Response:

Not just usenet addicts, but all net addicts here, we should really do something about it. Getting a life is one option, but alas not for many of us shy fuckers. I come home from work, what’s there to do? Nothing. I switch on the PC and then this newsgroup. Not even much else to do on the net anymore. What, google search for shit? Tired of it. Download music? Sometimes. Next week some friends (women) are coming back from a long vacation. Not much is expected but I do miss their company and besides they’re pleasant to look at. Anyway, I would ususally see them like once every two weeks but it’s better than nada. Work, read books, watch movies, browse the net, read and post, work out, pass the time. Boring life. New ideas?

Response:

franco@grex wrote:

Not just usenet addicts, but all net addicts here, we should really do something about it. Getting a life is one option, but alas not for many of us shy fuckers. I come home from work, what’s there to do? Nothing. I switch on the PC and then this newsgroup. Not even much else to do on the net anymore. What, google search for shit? Tired of it. Download music? Sometimes. Next week some friends (women) are coming back from a long vacation. Not much is expected but I do miss their company and besides they’re pleasant to look at. Anyway, I would ususally see them like once every two weeks but it’s better than nada. Work, read books, watch movies, browse the net, read and post, work out, pass the time. Boring life. New ideas?

Learn a musical instrument, take up amateur dramatics, take up a sport, do a martial art, learn to paint… There’s loads to do in life, you just have to motivate tyourself to do it.

Response:

New ideas?

how about getting involved in a charity and donating some of your time to something worthwhile. or chasing one of your passions… take a class in microbiology or painting or fencing. do something that will get you out of the house.  it worked for me. – k i t z – i will take you to the oracle, but first i must aporogize. http://spinning_plates.tripod.com

Response:

kitznegari thinks it has wings <kitzneg…@aol.com

wrote… New ideas? how about getting involved in a charity and donating some of your time to something worthwhile. or chasing one of your passions… take a class in microbiology or painting or fencing. do something that will get you out of the house.  it worked for me.

I want to learn to dance salsa.

Response:

kitznegari thinks it has wings <kitzneg…@aol.com wrote… New ideas? how about getting involved in a charity and donating some of your time to something worthwhile. or chasing one of your passions… take a class in microbiology or painting or fencing. do something that will get you out of the house.  it worked for me. I want to learn to dance salsa.

 I learnt salsa 4-5 years ago. Its fun. I need to learn to rollerblade.  I work mon-fri, weeknites I go to gym 2-3x/week, after that its pretty much tv and internet. I try to go out on weekends get away from home.  I have thought of volunteering but.Iam lazy to commit for that, I need my weekends. Sometimes I have to go to work on sat when there is too much work. Friend of mine at work volunteers at museum/events ,I can try that.

Response:

Andy <a…@REMOVETHISthepark.gotadsl.co.uk

wrote… …you just have to motivate tyourself to do it.

That’s the operative word here: motivation. It’s something I don’t have.

Response:

franco@grex wrote:

Andy <a…@REMOVETHISthepark.gotadsl.co.uk wrote… …you just have to motivate yourself to do it. That’s the operative word here: motivation. It’s something I don’t have.

Sorry, I know of no shop that sells it. But it may have been within you all along.

Response:

Andy <a…@REMOVETHISthepark.gotadsl.co.uk wrote… …you just have to motivate tyourself to do it. That’s the operative word here: motivation. It’s something I don’t have.

  You have it…its sleeping..wake it.

Response:

…you just have to motivate yourself to do it. That’s the operative word here: motivation. It’s something I don’t have. Sorry, I know of no shop that sells it. But it may have been within you all along.

Or it may have rotted away years ago. You may need to get a new one, but you need someone to give it to you as no shops have them.

Response:

franco@grex wrote:

Not just usenet addicts, but all net addicts here, we should really do something about it. Getting a life is one option, but alas not for many of us shy fuckers. I come home from work, what’s there to do? Nothing. I switch on the PC and then this newsgroup. Not even much else to do on the net anymore. What, google search for shit? Tired of it. Download music? Sometimes. Next week some friends (women) are coming back from a long vacation. Not much is expected but I do miss their company and besides they’re pleasant to look at. Anyway, I would ususally see them like once every two weeks but it’s better than nada. Work, read books, watch movies, browse the net, read and post, work out, pass the time. Boring life. New ideas?

Always wondered if the the invention of the internet was a good thing or bad thing for us shybies. — FiRe "Shut up brain,or I’ll stab ya with a Q-tip" Homer J.Simpson "Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy". Ben Franklin

Response:

franco@grex wrote:

kitznegari thinks it has wings <kitzneg…@aol.com wrote… Work, read books, watch movies, browse the net, read and post, work out, pass the time. Boring life. New ideas?

Talk to nearby people about work, spend more time in a bookstore than you normally would, ask the next woman at the gym what she thinks of exclusive places like Curves For Women, or go on a ship cruise. People make life interesting

how about getting involved in a charity and donating some of your time to something worthwhile. or chasing one of your passions… take a class in microbiology or painting or fencing. do something that will get you out of the house.  it worked for me. I want to learn to dance salsa.

Good start. Now sign up for a class! — "There are times you should not flirt. When you’re sick. When you bear a child. On the witness stand." –Joyce Jillson "We expect the aggressors to use anything, we don’t rule out that in their depression at being vanquished, those losers will become hysterical and commit even more folly."   – Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi (mis)Information Minister

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masturbate really violently. lol.      

Response:

mevyhetal <n…@spam.ok

wrote in news:Xns947570B8E8E3Enospamok@68.1.17.6: masturbate really violently. lol.        

Excellent idea.

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Question:

Katmich, I also just wanted to ask for some advice.  Alot of people talk about eating properlt to gain weight, but how does one go about losing it after gaining too much? ( due to a really slow metabolism..or so they say! ) I want to do this right this time and not let my ED mind take over.  I guess it’s still a huge problem for me at times and can be very triggering.  I’m afraid once I start I’ll be unable to stop.  I tend to obsess a little..can you believe that?  :)

If you have access to a diabetes education program, go talk to the dietitician. They can help you figure out a counted carbohydrate program that takes into account your activity level, food preferences, lifestyle, amount of weight you want/need to lose, and your height. The program I’m on is very simple. (If you want more info, back channel me.) I don’t have to obsess about food all the time and I can have any food I want as long as I count it. Since I’m not insulin dependent, I don’t have to totally cut out sugar, but I do have to avoid aspartame because of the horrible side effects I get from it. Risa You see a lot of smart guys with dumb women, but you hardly ever see a smart woman with a dumb guy.

Response:

This silence is way too much for even me.  How is everyone today?  I was having a bit of a rough day and just wanted to know you were all out there still.  Somehow, it helps!

Hi Kathy.  I’m here, just quieter this week.  I’m doing fairly well, my calendar this month shows 9 days where I binge ate…that’s about my average for the past couple of months. Stress is still a huge trigger, but at least I really can recognize it now where before I couldn’t.

That’s progress.  I’m where you are, I can recognize the triggers but I still haven’t found healthy replacements that work all the time yet.  Or I guess I should say that I put into action with more consistency. I also just wanted to ask for some advice.  Alot of people talk about eating properlt to gain weight, but how does one go about losing it after gaining too much? ( due to a really slow metabolism..or so they say! ) I want to do this right this time and not let my ED mind take over.  I guess it’s still a huge problem for me at times and can be very triggering.  I’m afraid once I start I’ll be unable to stop.  I tend to obsess a little..can you believe that?  :)

I don’t know the answer to that one.  If I didn’t have the history that I do, all the simple-minded advice about "lifestyle change" and "moderation" would be easy to implement.  I mean, I do a LOT of the suggested things like exercise and eat a balanced diet (when I’m not binge eating), but it’s so easy to flip over into the obsessive thinking. For myself personally, my plan is to become as normalized in my eating behavior as possible while strengthening other areas of my life, like spirituality, relationships, having fun and physical activity.  If I focus on losing weight it always leads me right back to trouble. It’s a tough one.  This is our area of life lessons, and we each have to discover what it is we’re supposed to learn from all of this.  I wish there was a one-size-fits-all answer, but that would rob us of our precious individuality. Hang in there!  It’s possible to create a fulfilling life while on this journey. Betsy

Response:

Sunflower {{{{hey Everyone}}}} This silence is way too much for even me.  How is everyone today?  I was having a bit of a rough day and just wanted to know you were all out there still.  Somehow, it helps! Stress is still a huge trigger, but at least I really can recognize it now where before I couldn’t. I also just wanted to ask for some advice.  Alot of people talk about eating properlt to gain weight, but how does one go about losing it after gaining too much? ( due to a really slow metabolism..or so they say! ) I want to do this right this time and not let my ED mind take over.  I guess it’s still a huge problem for me at times and can be very triggering.  I’m afraid once I start I’ll be unable to stop.  I tend to obsess a little..can you believe that?  :) Love ya, Kathy

Response:

There are also a couple of groups called food addicts anonymous and food addicts in recovery (separate groups). I met a member of food addicts in recovery anonymous once. No sense of humor. I recommended they change the name of their group to food addicts in recovery – twelve steps, or F.A.R.T.S. He didn’t laugh.

(just a joke, I didn’t really say that ((but I thought it)) )      Lol! Thank you for the giggle. Emily "How does the meadow-flower it’s bloom   unfold? Because the lovely little flower is free Down to its root, and in that freedom   bold." Wordsworth   A Poet!  He Hath Put His Heart to School.

Response:

There are also a couple of groups called food addicts anonymous and food addicts in recovery (separate groups). I met a member of food addicts in recovery anonymous once. No sense of humor. I recommended they change the name of their group to food addicts in recovery – twelve steps, or F.A.R.T.S. He didn’t laugh. (just a joke, I didn’t really say that ((but I thought it)) ) http://www.foodaddictsanonymous.org/ http://www.foodaddicts.org/index.html http://geocities.com/killthebudda/connected.mp3

Response:

{Kathy} I was going to ask you, too, if you’ve ever used a meal plan.  I think it helps alot.  Takes the focus off dieting, and more on eating normally.  I use points instead of exchanges for greater flexability.  Email me if you want some pointers or a pattern, as I just saw the dietician yesterday. Lynette

Response:

Question:

Stan might have said: … But the better solution is not to ever use it, and use saline nasal spray as often as you want to.

seconded. —

Response:

After congratulating myself every time I have a cold for not getting addicted to nasal spray, I went and did it this time. Grrr. I’ve been caving in and using the stuff whenever I can’t breathe, promising myself I won’t buy another bottle when this one runs out (the same one I’ve had for months now). And then I go and leave my purse at work, with the nasal spray in it. Serves me right.

I was addicted once for about 3 years. I highly recommend and use Stan’s method too.  Continue using it on one side only until the other side recovers and starts working again.  That may take days, or longer.  Then do the remaining side. Bruce.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Last time I was in a grocery store I checked the SC package and saw that each one has 4 ounces low fat ice cream and those thin cookies. Four ounces of any flavor no-fat no-sugar-added ice cream are around 90-100 calories, and the cost is much cheaper.  Plus, the stuff doesn’t taste THAT great, so half a cup is about right. A half-gallon container for around $4 U.S. means 16 servings of a half cup each, or 25 cents a serving.  Same calories and points, more varied tastes. Going back for a second half-cup is the same number of calories or points as a second Skinny Cow, at only 25 cents, and somehow less guilt. It seems reasonable to count the points and enjoy a second small serving of non-fat no-sugar-added ice cream, but something seems wrong about eating a second Skinny Cow.  Or is this just my head? Now, if the alternative is to go for the Haagen Dasz or Ben & Jerry’s, stick with the pre-measured Skinny Cows! And as another alternative, there are "ice cream" filled popsicles for around 35 calories, a very scant point.  Or, an 8-ounce carton of nonfat flavored yogurt is just as enjoyable to me, at 100 calories/2 points, same creamy cool taste.

Good ideas Carol! The hard part for me will be going to the store to get the no-fat ice cream and not coming home with the Skinny Cows. I might have better luck getting my wife to do this for me so that I stay out of the store entirely. Although, she is getting pretty hooked on the Skinny Cows as well she dose have a little better control over them than I do. — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

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@corp.supernews.com: You might consider *investing* some of that money in their stock….  :-) At least you’d get some of your money back.  *grin*

I actually had been wondering if it might be a good investment but now I’m broke from buying them — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

Hello my name is Gwen and I’m a Skinny Cow Addict.  Last week I used the excuse of running to the grocery store at 10:00 pm to get a birthday card for a friend when what I really wanted was to buy more Skinny Cows!! Wired, I don’t know if I can offer much help about the added expense of this habit as I am falling victim to it myself except that I’m trying to limit myself to 1 (or 2) package(s) per week. Gwen 250/155.8/158

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293.iap.bryant.webtv.net: Hello my name is Gwen and I’m a Skinny Cow Addict.  Last week I used the excuse of running to the grocery store at 10:00 pm to get a birthday card for a friend when what I really wanted was to buy more Skinny Cows!! Wired, I don’t know if I can offer much help about the added expense of this habit as I am falling victim to it myself except that I’m trying to limit myself to 1 (or 2) package(s) per week. Gwen 250/155.8/158

Hello Gwen…. Wow! You mean I’m not the only one who did something like that? — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

Thanks everyone this has been such a funny thread and I have needed a laugh this week. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 293.iap.bryant.webtv.net: Hello my name is Gwen and I’m a Skinny Cow Addict.  Last week I used the excuse of running to the grocery store at 10:00 pm to get a birthday card for a friend when what I really wanted was to buy more Skinny Cows!! Wired, I don’t know if I can offer much help about the added expense of this habit as I am falling victim to it myself except that I’m trying to limit myself to 1 (or 2) package(s) per week. Gwen 250/155.8/158 Hello Gwen…. Wow! You mean I’m not the only one who did something like that? — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

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That’s it, I am going to drive the 25 minutes to Albertson’s to get me some skinny cows to try. Melissa http://community.webtv.net/A-Girl-Like-Me/Melissa

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Take two (4 connected crackers = 1) graham crackers (chocolate flavor) and using fat free whipped topping, make a sandwich.  Wrap them in plastic wrap and freeze.  Taste like an ice cream sandwich for 2 pts and a lot less expensive. http://community.webtv.net/A-Girl-Like-Me/Melissa

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I’m no better, ate 2 packages in the last 2 days, oh well…. I guess WW leaders don’t have any Skinny Cow control either.  I actually told myself I earned them because of my workout.  It makes me wonder if I didn’t eat them, would I have to workout so much? -Chantal

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Oh no.  I just bought a package of these but they are still in my freezer because after reading these posts I am afraid to open them up!  :) Sue 182/182/177 5 lbs at a time! Start 6/5/01

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Well I managed to pass up the peanut butter ones at the store today. More because I don’t have room in my freezer than because I have any will power. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m no better, ate 2 packages in the last 2 days, oh well…. I guess WW leaders don’t have any Skinny Cow control either.  I actually told myself I earned them because of my workout.  It makes me wonder if I didn’t eat them, would I have to workout so much? -Chantal

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Hi, My name is Wendy, and I, too, am a Skinny Cows addict. After reading your posts last week about how good they are, but *before* reading how addictive they are, I went out this past Monday and bought my first package of them- I started out easy, with vanilla. Well, it’s now Friday and there’s only one left!! All I can say Sue, is be afraid, be VERY afraid!! Wendy

Oh no.  I just bought a package of these but they are still in my freezer because after reading these posts I am afraid to open them up!  :) Sue 182/182/177 5 lbs at a time! Start 6/5/01

Response:

138.iap.bryant.webtv.net: Take two (4 connected crackers = 1) graham crackers (chocolate flavor) and using fat free whipped topping, make a sandwich.  Wrap them in plastic wrap and freeze.  Taste like an ice cream sandwich for 2 pts and a lot less expensive.

That sounds good. Thanks for the idea. — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

read.news.verio.net: Hi, My name is Wendy, and I, too, am a Skinny Cows addict. After reading your posts last week about how good they are, but *before* reading how addictive they are, I went out this past Monday and bought my first package of them- I started out easy, with vanilla. Well, it’s now Friday and there’s only one left!! All I can say Sue, is be afraid, be VERY afraid!! Wendy Oh no.  I just bought a package of these but they are still in my freezer because after reading these posts I am afraid to open them up!  :)

Yes Sue the only real way to beat SCA (Skinny Cow Addiction) is to never take that first bite! Take them immediately back to the store and tell the manager that you have heard of too many people falling victom to SCA. Tell him that he should take them all off the shelves to protect his customers from their influence. Please take a digital camera with you so that you can take a picture of the expression on his face when you tell him this story. That way you can post it here and we can all have a good laugh! — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

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@typhoon.austin.rr.com: I’m no better, ate 2 packages in the last 2 days, oh well…. I guess WW leaders don’t have any Skinny Cow control either.  I actually told myself I earned them because of my workout.  It makes me wonder if I didn’t eat them, would I have to workout so much? -Chantal

I have an interview later this month to talk to WW about becoming a leader. Do they do any kind of test for Skinny Cow Addiction (SCA)? If so what is   the trick to not being caught? — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

Wired… plead the fifth. — – O. Madisoy 223/178.4 /180 DOW/159

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – @typhoon.austin.rr.com: I’m no better, ate 2 packages in the last 2 days, oh well…. I guess WW leaders don’t have any Skinny Cow control either.  I actually told myself I earned them because of my workout.  It makes me wonder if I didn’t eat them, would I have to workout so much? -Chantal I have an interview later this month to talk to WW about becoming a leader. Do they do any kind of test for Skinny Cow Addiction (SCA)? If so what is the trick to not being caught? — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

You might consider *investing* some of that money in their stock….  :-) At least you’d get some of your money back.  *grin* Cheers, Kari 189/168/125

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Wired One and I’m a Skinny Cow addict.  It all started when I took that first bite of a Skinny Cow. I was instantly hooked. Now it has progressed to the point that I have been buying 6 packages per week. That’s roughly $30.00 per week for Skinny Cows! If I keep this up I will be paying almost $130.00 per month for Skinny Cows!!! Please tell me there is hope else I will have to take a second job to support this expensive habit. — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

You guys are scaring me.  heh

Then there is hope for you! I’ll be taking a trip this weekend that will actually put me in a place that I can buy Skinny Cows.  I’ve never had one.  But, I did buy a cooler at Wal-mart today so I could buy them and drive them home. See… you’re making addicts out of those of us who haven’t even tried them yet.  heh.  But I figure this way, I buy 3 boxes, bring them home and try to ration them out…. but once they’re gone, they’re gone. Now… if I get up at 2am and drive the 3 hours back to get more, then I’ll really know I’m in trouble…..

Now if you think the way I think that could backfire. Knowing myself if I were in your shoes I would be thinking that I would get up at 2 am because I had only bought 3 packages. Therefore I would buy 6 to save the time and expense of gas in the long run. Then my next thought would be: no I’d better buy 9 so that I don’t get home, eat the 6, and drive back anyway defeating the whole purpose of buying 6. Of course when I got home with the 9 and….. Well maybe you should just plan on moving closter to the Skinny Cows! — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

Yes, I am in therapy right now for it.  My psychologist is using an aversive therapeutic approach… where the ice cream is tainted with pepper and castor oil before ingesting.  That has helped a bit, cutting down my addiction to about 15 per week.  However, I still find myself eating the cookie part, which doesn’t take in the bitter taste as much, and journalling it as a point.

Did your psychologist have a remedy to stop the trips to Albertson’s at 1:00 AM in the morning due to the cravings? — Wired_1 215/147.8/148

Response:

I don’t know Wierd those damn things tried hooking me as well. I am on the 12 steps program right now, but  I have to finish off what I left of my stash first. They say if you don’t go cold turkey it will lead to other more dangerous things, like No Pudge, or worse. May be if we all stick together we can beat this thing. You will have to all excuse me now I hear one calling in the freezer for breakfast.

Yes I agree we all need to stick together. I bought 3 packages this mornig at 1:00 am. My wife and I all but one in the first package. I am about to go home and take care of that one and probably tear into the second package. What is "No Pudge"? Also I must be having trouble with my news servers. Your message just now showed up but Oscar’s showed up before yours but appears to have been sent after yours. The reason I mention this I had read your post about you having a stressful week. I was going to reply to it but got called away from my desk.  Now it has disappeard from my server and I can’t remember half of what I intended to say to you. So I’ll try anyway from memory. I’m sorry your having such a stressful week and the fact that you had to eat at the dreaded Micky D’s. Maybe chasing the owles will give you enough activity points to compensate. But even if it doesn’t it’s not your fault. You didn’t set out to eat there but had to to keep from starving. I know you’ve got the right sticktoitiveness so that won’t mess you up. So don’t let it get you down and hang in there! About your squirrel. I bet you will miss him. Just think of it this way though. Maybe one day after you set him free he will cross paths with some clumbsy mountain biker and they will have a meaningfull conversation on the trail and it will brighten their day! Anyway I hope that things get less stressful for you and you have a better weekend. — Wired_1 215/147.8/148

Response:

Yes, I will miss his little smiling face, he is really cute and I will tell him about these people who ride bikes, that they may want to talk to him from time to time. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know Wierd those damn things tried hooking me as well. I am on the 12 steps program right now, but  I have to finish off what I left of my stash first. They say if you don’t go cold turkey it will lead to other more dangerous things, like No Pudge, or worse. May be if we all stick together we can beat this thing. You will have to all excuse me now I hear one calling in the freezer for breakfast. Yes I agree we all need to stick together. I bought 3 packages this mornig at 1:00 am. My wife and I all but one in the first package. I am about to go home and take care of that one and probably tear into the second package. What is "No Pudge"? Also I must be having trouble with my news servers. Your message just now showed up but Oscar’s showed up before yours but appears to have been sent after yours. The reason I mention this I had read your post about you having a stressful week. I was going to reply to it but got called away from my desk.  Now it has disappeard from my server and I can’t remember half of what I intended to say to you. So I’ll try anyway from memory. I’m sorry your having such a stressful week and the fact that you had to eat at the dreaded Micky D’s. Maybe chasing the owles will give you enough activity points to compensate. But even if it doesn’t it’s not your fault. You didn’t set out to eat there but had to to keep from starving. I know you’ve got the right sticktoitiveness so that won’t mess you up. So don’t let it get you down and hang in there! About your squirrel. I bet you will miss him. Just think of it this way though. Maybe one day after you set him free he will cross paths with some clumbsy mountain biker and they will have a meaningfull conversation on the trail and it will brighten their day! Anyway I hope that things get less stressful for you and you have a better weekend. — Wired_1 215/147.8/148

Response:

The No Pudge is a fat free low calorie brownie mix that you just add yogurt. It is really good, as good as the fat version one. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know Wierd those damn things tried hooking me as well. I am on the 12 steps program right now, but  I have to finish off what I left of my stash first. They say if you don’t go cold turkey it will lead to other more dangerous things, like No Pudge, or worse. May be if we all stick together we can beat this thing. You will have to all excuse me now I hear one calling in the freezer for breakfast. Yes I agree we all need to stick together. I bought 3 packages this mornig at 1:00 am. My wife and I all but one in the first package. I am about to go home and take care of that one and probably tear into the second package. What is "No Pudge"? Also I must be having trouble with my news servers. Your message just now showed up but Oscar’s showed up before yours but appears to have been sent after yours. The reason I mention this I had read your post about you having a stressful week. I was going to reply to it but got called away from my desk.  Now it has disappeard from my server and I can’t remember half of what I intended to say to you. So I’ll try anyway from memory. I’m sorry your having such a stressful week and the fact that you had to eat at the dreaded Micky D’s. Maybe chasing the owles will give you enough activity points to compensate. But even if it doesn’t it’s not your fault. You didn’t set out to eat there but had to to keep from starving. I know you’ve got the right sticktoitiveness so that won’t mess you up. So don’t let it get you down and hang in there! About your squirrel. I bet you will miss him. Just think of it this way though. Maybe one day after you set him free he will cross paths with some clumbsy mountain biker and they will have a meaningfull conversation on the trail and it will brighten their day! Anyway I hope that things get less stressful for you and you have a better weekend. — Wired_1 215/147.8/148

Response:

Last time I was in a grocery store I checked the SC package and saw that each one has 4 ounces low fat ice cream and those thin cookies. Four ounces of any flavor no-fat no-sugar-added ice cream are around 90-100 calories, and the cost is much cheaper.  Plus, the stuff doesn’t taste THAT great, so half a cup is about right. A half-gallon container for around $4 U.S. means 16 servings of a half cup each, or 25 cents a serving.  Same calories and points, more varied tastes. Going back for a second half-cup is the same number of calories or points as a second Skinny Cow, at only 25 cents, and somehow less guilt.  It seems reasonable to count the points and enjoy a second small serving of non-fat no-sugar-added ice cream, but something seems wrong about eating a second Skinny Cow.  Or is this just my head? Now, if the alternative is to go for the Haagen Dasz or Ben & Jerry’s, stick with the pre-measured Skinny Cows! And as another alternative, there are "ice cream" filled popsicles for around 35 calories, a very scant point.  Or, an 8-ounce carton of nonfat flavored yogurt is just as enjoyable to me, at 100 calories/2 points, same creamy cool taste. Determined to not add another addiction to my lengthy list, — Carol Schmidt, Phoenix, AZ, USA http://carolschmidt.homestead.com 366 start on April 18, 2000 296.3 now, 69.7 pounds lost 293.6 minigoal for the July 1 DOW challenge 166 goal for the year 2007

Response:

Yes, I am in therapy right now for it.  My psychologist is using an aversive therapeutic approach… where the ice cream is tainted with pepper and castor oil before ingesting.  That has helped a bit, cutting down my addiction to about 15 per week.  However, I still find myself eating the cookie part, which doesn’t take in the bitter taste as much, and journalling it as a point. — – O. Madisoy 223/178.4 /180 DOW/159

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know Wierd those damn things tried hooking me as well. I am on the 12 steps program right now, but  I have to finish off what I left of my stash first. They say if you don’t go cold turkey it will lead to other more dangerous things, like No Pudge, or worse. May be if we all stick together we can beat this thing. You will have to all excuse me now I hear one calling in the freezer for breakfast. Roxan Hello, my name is Wired One and I’m a Skinny Cow addict.  It all started when I took that first bite of a Skinny Cow. I was instantly hooked. Now it has progressed to the point that I have been buying 6 packages per week. That’s roughly $30.00 per week for Skinny Cows! If I keep this up I will be paying almost $130.00 per month for Skinny Cows!!! Please tell me there is hope else I will have to take a second job to support this expensive habit. — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

I don’t know Wierd those damn things tried hooking me as well. I am on the 12 steps program right now, but  I have to finish off what I left of my stash first. They say if you don’t go cold turkey it will lead to other more dangerous things, like No Pudge, or worse. May be if we all stick together we can beat this thing. You will have to all excuse me now I hear one calling in the freezer for breakfast. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Wired One and I’m a Skinny Cow addict.  It all started when I took that first bite of a Skinny Cow. I was instantly hooked. Now it has progressed to the point that I have been buying 6 packages per week. That’s roughly $30.00 per week for Skinny Cows! If I keep this up I will be paying almost $130.00 per month for Skinny Cows!!! Please tell me there is hope else I will have to take a second job to support this expensive habit. — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

Hello, my name is Wired One and I’m a Skinny Cow addict.  It all started when I took that first bite of a Skinny Cow. I was instantly hooked. Now it has progressed to the point that I have been buying 6 packages per week. That’s roughly $30.00 per week for Skinny Cows! If I keep this up I will be paying almost $130.00 per month for Skinny Cows!!! Please tell me there is hope else I will have to take a second job to support this expensive habit. — Wired_1 215/147.8/158

Response:

Question:

In article <9cmu2h02…@drn.newsguy.com

, sisyphus says… http://www.trollalert.com/TrollingForJesus/

Jesus is an asshole, sissypuss.

Response:

Kendricks wrote:

Thank you!  I think I make some pretty good arguments in favor of sterilization, sodomy, abortion, suicide, and cannibalism, too! Subversion

You must make your folks very proud Sirius

Response:

J D Kendricks wrote:

Going into chat rooms populated by teenagers and pre-teens, and explaining to them why the concept of god is bullshit, why they should not be afraid to explore the sexuality, and why the morals that their church and parents teach is only propaganda used to control their minds is probably a more efficient use of my time, though.  But this place certainly is fun, too!!! Subversion

Doesn’t this make you an element in the corruption of youth?  Isn’t this what you were saying we parents should fear (and yet you encourage it)? There are other ways to raise children, including loving them, giving them a positive and supportive family life and encouraging them to make reasoned (not knee jerk or follower) decisions for themselves.  Raising intelligent, curious, thoughtful children, with the ability to reason and live ethically in all areas of their lives is the great challenge for parents. Sirius

Response:

subversion wrote:

In article <9cmu2h02…@drn.newsguy.com, sisyphus says… http://www.trollalert.com/TrollingForJesus/ Jesus is an asshole, sissypuss.

You could be confusing him with many of his "followers."  If he really existed and the accounts of him are at all accurate, he was subversive! Sirius

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:41:05 GMT, Gale <uniqg…@my-deja.com

wrote: JD_Kendricks wrote: In article <3aedbce5.884113…@biggulp.visi.com, kal…@switchboardmail.com says… This reminded me of something I read one time.  I don’t know who wrote it and I’m paraphrasing.  But, it went something like this: A hundred years from now no one will care how much money I had or what kind of car I drove or how big my house was.  But, *I* know that my life will have had meaning because I was involved in the life of a child. Now, if my son can say that about his life and his son can say it and so on and so on, I will, in effect, have lived forever. Forever is a long time, and the world will be an ice ball soon enough.  In other words, your short-sighted fantasy proves nothing. Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse? How proud will you be of your legacy then??? On the surface, that’s an absurd example… The fraud of projecting guilt needs a willing fall guy. The obvious answer is that such a son’s rebellion is not the dad’s fault.  Each step in such a bleak cycle is the responsibilty of the person who does it. Your answer deflates kalote’s sentiment quite effectively, though. One’s children own the praise and blame for their actions, however much parents may want to live through them.

That is a very eloquent analysis.  Thank you. Subversion

Response:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:17:40 GMT, JD_Kendricks <nos…@newsranger.com

wrote:

Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse?  

I know you believe that all kids end up this way, subbie. You’re entitled to your little fantasies. Those of us in the real world fashion our beliefs according to our own perceptions.         – Randy

Response:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:02:19 GMT, kendricks <nos…@newsranger.com

wrote:

Plus, there are plenty of people like me who love to spend time in online forums and chat rooms, subverting the traditional concepts of morality

You’ve been here what, a year? Two? Just how many minds do you think you’ve subverted? Or does your concept of saving the world mean you feel you’ve won something even if nobody you’ve ever talked to has changed their mind about a single solitary concept?           – Randy

Response:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:05:59 GMT, ran…@visionplace.com (Randy Poe) wrote:

Plus, there are plenty of people like me who love to spend time in online forums and chat rooms, subverting the traditional concepts of morality You’ve been here what, a year? Two? Just how many minds do you think you’ve subverted? Or does your concept of saving the world mean you feel you’ve won something even if nobody you’ve ever talked to has changed their mind about a single solitary concept?          - Randy

You are blinded by your own bias, Randy.  There are plenty of people who post agreement with me, and even some who call me the most intelligent poster in here.  Besides, you *should* know that most of the traffic received in discussion boards is lurkers.   You see, I am planting seeds, and creating hairline cracks in the bullshit you call moral society.   All your feeble mind can do is attempt to reinforce the propaganda you have been indoctrinated with, while I rip that propaganda to shreds.   Going into chat rooms populated by teenagers and pre-teens, and explaining to them why the concept of god is bullshit, why they should not be afraid to explore the sexuality, and why the morals that their church and parents teach is only propaganda used to control their minds is probably a more efficient use of my time, though.  But this place certainly is fun, too!!! Subversion

Response:

In article <6tiretcnmbkoi3m6chmfpkfmi29eoer…@4ax.com

, Empress of the Known

Universe says…

On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:17:40 GMT, JD_Kendricks <nos…@newsranger.com wrote: Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse?   LOL!  You are really the best argument for birth control there is, Kendricks.

Thank you!  I think I make some pretty good arguments in favor of sterilization, sodomy, abortion, suicide, and cannibalism, too! Subversion

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -JD_Kendricks wrote:

In article <3aedbce5.884113…@biggulp.visi.com, kal…@switchboardmail.com says… This reminded me of something I read one time.  I don’t know who wrote it and I’m paraphrasing.  But, it went something like this: A hundred years from now no one will care how much money I had or what kind of car I drove or how big my house was.  But, *I* know that my life will have had meaning because I was involved in the life of a child. Now, if my son can say that about his life and his son can say it and so on and so on, I will, in effect, have lived forever. Forever is a long time, and the world will be an ice ball soon enough.  In other words, your short-sighted fantasy proves nothing. Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse? How proud will you be of your legacy then???

On the surface, that’s an absurd example… The fraud of projecting guilt needs a willing fall guy. The obvious answer is that such a son’s rebellion is not the dad’s fault.  Each step in such a bleak cycle is the responsibilty of the person who does it. Your answer deflates kalote’s sentiment quite effectively, though. One’s children own the praise and blame for their actions, however much parents may want to live through them. Are you familiar with Melissa Etheridge’s "Silent Legacy" or Steve Van Zandt’s "All I Needed Was You"? There are gentle and courageous ways that someone conscious can refuse to carry out the crap in their destiny, by breaking a cycle of abuse or by declining a mission of vengance. — Gale

Response:

In article <3aedce93.888639…@biggulp.visi.com

, kal…@switchboardmail.com

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse?   How proud will you be of your legacy then??? 8-D I suspect this is why you don’t want to have children, sir.  You know that under your tutelage, they would turn out to be like the monsters you describe.  On behalf of the rest of humanity, thank you for not procreating. TTFN, Kalote

Face it, there are an astounding amount of influences in the world which your yardmonkeys will be exposed to which are beyond your control, in addition to the fact that they will rebel against your tight-assed view of the world once their hormones start kicking in. Plus, there are plenty of people like me who love to spend time in online forums and chat rooms, subverting the traditional concepts of morality which control the minds of people like you, but which your crotchdroppings will likely be immune to! Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Subversionmania

Response:

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***

Forever is a long time, and the world will be an ice ball soon enough.  In other words, your short-sighted fantasy proves nothing.

I never said I was trying to prove anything.  I couldn’t care less whether you think life has any meaning.  Your silly thread just reminded me of what life means to me (thank you very much) and I wanted to share it with others. I knew *you* wouldn’t appreciate it.  I just attached my reply to your post because it was convenient.

Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse?   How proud will you be of your legacy then??? 8-D

I suspect this is why you don’t want to have children, sir.  You know that under your tutelage, they would turn out to be like the monsters you describe.  On behalf of the rest of humanity, thank you for not procreating. TTFN, Kalote —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 90,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

In article <3aedbce5.884113…@biggulp.visi.com

, kal…@switchboardmail.com

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com *** On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:46:09 GMT, nihilator <nos…@newsranger.com wrote: <snip  big philosophical discussion My point is simply that spending your life worrying about legacies or thinking that you are actually going to have any kind of *lasting* impact is a fantasy, and that traditional concepts of meaning and morality are shams.  A point which has been hammered home sufficiently by now!   This reminded me of something I read one time.  I don’t know who wrote it and I’m paraphrasing.  But, it went something like this: A hundred years from now no one will care how much money I had or what kind of car I drove or how big my house was.  But, *I* know that my life will have had meaning because I was involved in the life of a child. Now, if my son can say that about his life and his son can say it and so on and so on, I will, in effect, have lived forever. TTFN, Kalote

Forever is a long time, and the world will be an ice ball soon enough.  In other words, your short-sighted fantasy proves nothing. Also, what happens when your son rebels against your good intentions and forcibly rapes and impregnates a young girl, who’s troubled offspring grows up to commit horrendous atrocities, setting in motion a horrific cycle of despair and abuse?   How proud will you be of your legacy then??? 8-D

Response:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:50:24 GMT, jd…@yahoo.com (subversionmania) wrote:

Why do you believe that it is impossible to love life, even though it has no inherent meaning?

‘Cause it’s more fun that way.             – Randy

Response:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:19:36 GMT, ran…@visionplace.com (Randy Poe) wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:50:24 GMT, jd…@yahoo.com (subversionmania) wrote: Why do you believe that it is impossible to love life, even though it has no inherent meaning? ‘Cause it’s more fun that way.            - Randy

You think it is fun to believe it is impossible to love life?   Think it through, Randy.  I know you are smarter than THIS . . . . Kendricks

Response:

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com *** On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:46:09 GMT, nihilator <nos…@newsranger.com

wrote:

<snip  big philosophical discussion

My point is simply that spending your life worrying about legacies or thinking that you are actually going to have any kind of *lasting* impact is a fantasy, and that traditional concepts of meaning and morality are shams.  A point which has been hammered home sufficiently by now!  

This reminded me of something I read one time.  I don’t know who wrote it and I’m paraphrasing.  But, it went something like this: A hundred years from now no one will care how much money I had or what kind of car I drove or how big my house was.  But, *I* know that my life will have had meaning because I was involved in the life of a child. Now, if my son can say that about his life and his son can say it and so on and so on, I will, in effect, have lived forever. TTFN, Kalote —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 90,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

"JWB" jwbspamkiller3…@excite.com wrote:

here’s the lasting impact we have…. at my old job, there was a guy who ran the whole factory. For 27 years. A big, important job. He was the boss of 700 people, and directed how millions of dollars worth of product was produced. He died suddenly two months ago. The next day, there was a memo, a speech, and the flag was flown at half mast. The following day, it was business as usual, like he never existed… It made me think. His family will remember him a bit longer,

Longer than a day? Let’s hope so. CJ (who spent Sunday with his brother "visiting mom" at the cemetery — she passed on 31 years ago)

Response:

here’s the lasting impact we have…. at my old job, there was a guy who ran the whole factory. For 27 years. A big, important job. He was the boss of 700 people, and directed how millions of dollars worth of product was produced. He died suddenly two months ago. The next day, there was a memo, a speech, and the flag was flown at half mast. The following day, it was business as usual, like he never existed… It made me think. His family will remember him a bit longer, but for the most part, life went on. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "nihilator" <nos…@newsranger.com

wrote in message

news:BMlG6.1337$SZ5.112786@www.newsranger.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <hfbjet86kit7trvs8b2lkn3fno1m3ah…@4ax.com, Empress of the

Known

Universe says… I suppose we’re not communicating very well.  I am pre-supposing your nihilist stance; my argument with you was that you’d misunderstood Nietzsche. And (one of) my arguments with you is that you are so eager to discredit nihilism, you fail to understand that Neitzsche was, in fact, an existential nihilist.  This doesn’t mean that he hates life, it only means that he recognized that life has no *INHERENT* meaning.  One of mny other arguments with you is your failure to acknowledge the meaning of the word "inherent" in this context. Where am I eager to discredit nihilism?  When?  My attitude is ‘I don’t know’, I’m more an agnostic. My, how you have changed your tone!  before, you were posting all this

happy

crap about being "life-affirming", whatever the hell that is supposed to

mean!

But, I’ve been saying, or trying to say, that I’m willing to make your nihilist viewpoint a given, and then my question is "so what?"  What’s your point?  Everything is meaningless, but stuff still exists…  Stuff like love and sex and I have these amazing giant Sunset Azaleas that are blooming right now… What’s your point?  That’s what I want to know. My point is simply that spending your life worrying about legacies or

thinking

that you are actually going to have any kind of *lasting* impact is a

fantasy,

and that traditional concepts of meaning and morality are shams.  A point

which

has been hammered home sufficiently by now! Are you impressed when hundreds or thousands of innocent people aqre killed for economic reasons?  Kaczinski is light years ahead of virtually everyone on the planet, it really is a shame that most people are so easily led and intellectually repressed that they buy into the government and media’s portrayal of him. Apparently you really believe that; I’m so sorry.  I did read his stuff, almost all 200+ paragraphs, and he’s got some interesting points on leftist inferiority and so on.  But he’s crazy as hell.  My comment on his personal hygiene was tongue in cheek, but frankly, the way he lived up in that little cabin is, yes, a clue to his mental condition.  And your genius failed to realize that blowing people up makes them extremely unlikely to want to take any of your ideas seriously.  Not to mention that his ideas aren’t so unique. Well, it didn’t do any good.  He is a failure.  The only one listening is you, to everybody else he’s a paranoid schizophrenic.  (I’ll take your word on the hygiene…) Wow!  Have you read http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html ? I’ll have to let Sun Microsystems’ cheif scientist know that he’s not

supposed

to be listening to Kaczinski (actually, I am sure that plenty of people

like you

have told him that already!!!)  What you may never understand is that

Truth is

not a popularity contest.  Britney Spears is not "better" than Frank

Zappa, just

because she has had more #1 hits. Ted would still be free, too, were it not for his scum-sucking brother.

You may

call him a "failure", but it is humanity that will pay the ultimate price,

as

his predictions unfold.  Of course, this is what the human race richly

deserves,

anyway.  Enjoy the decline and fall, ’cause I know I will!!! Anyway, what’s your point?  I am willing to go to the edge of the abyss and look down into the bottomless depths with you.  Well, as long as you don’t push me in, I’m not ready to go, yet.  But now what? Isn’t that a much more interesting question? -Empress Now let’s cut the bullshit out of our lives, and get some kicks!!!

Radical,

mindbending kicks . . . After all, why the fuck not?  That is the question, isn’t it? Subversion

Response:

In article <cfqjetgipnd9ijte31i3dcqi7a2cjm1…@4ax.com

, Empress of the Known

Universe says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:46:09 GMT, nihilator <nos…@newsranger.com wrote: Wow!  Have you read http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html ? "I am no apologist for Kaczynski. His bombs killed three people during a 17-year terror campaign and wounded many others. One of his bombs gravely injured my friend David Gelernter, one of the most brilliant and visionary computer scientists of our time. Like many of my colleagues, I felt that I could easily have been the Unabomber’s next target. Kaczynski’s actions were murderous and, in my view, criminally insane. He is clearly a Luddite, but simply saying this does not dismiss his argument; as difficult as it is for me to acknowledge, I saw some merit in the reasoning in this single passage. I felt compelled to confront it." I’ll have to let Sun Microsystems’ cheif scientist know that he’s not supposed to be listening to Kaczinski (actually, I am sure that plenty of people like you have told him that already!!!)  What you may never understand is that Truth is not a popularity contest.  Britney Spears is not "better" than Frank Zappa, just because she has had more #1 hits. Yeah, but Britney has better tits.  Anyway, who are you to be talking in Idealistic terms like Truth.  If there’s no inherent meaning, how can there be anything like Absolute Truth?

I’d rather screw Britney than Frank (even though Britney’s really not my type), but I’d never buy one of her cd’s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Ted would still be free, too, were it not for his scum-sucking brother.  You may call him a "failure", but it is humanity that will pay the ultimate price, as his predictions unfold.  Of course, this is what the human race richly deserves, anyway.  Enjoy the decline and fall, ’cause I know I will!!! Anyway, what’s your point?  I am willing to go to the edge of the abyss and look down into the bottomless depths with you.  Well, as long as you don’t push me in, I’m not ready to go, yet.  But now what? Isn’t that a much more interesting question? -Empress Now let’s cut the bullshit out of our lives, and get some kicks!!!  Radical, mindbending kicks . . . After all, why the fuck not?  That is the question, isn’t it? Subversion OK, man.  Let’s go!  Uh…  Are you going to give up your computer first? Me, I’m going to buy potting soil.  Oh, and butter – we’re out of butter. -Empress

I’m not giving up my computer.  Remember, I think Ted is essentailly right, but I think that humanity DESERVES the fate it is headed for! Do you really get kicks out of potting soil and butter?  How sad. Kendricks

Response:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:48:31 +1000, Sleeper <slee…@nowhere.com

wrote:

One last thing before I go back to sleep. John Kendricks wrote: Nihilism, to me, is the only realistic answer to the question, "does existence have any inherent meaning"? This is reasonable position but a dire one. People mostly adopt the philosophies and belief systems that allow them to do exactly what they want. When these beliefs restrict them from what they want, they bend adapt or reject them. This isn’t aimed at you just an observation on how patheticly disappointing and selfish people are.Sleeperzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I wouldn’t disagree with that staement, as a generalization.  of course, that does nothing to disprove my premise! Kendricks

Response:

In article <hfbjet86kit7trvs8b2lkn3fno1m3ah…@4ax.com

, Empress of the Known

Universe says…

I suppose we’re not communicating very well.  I am pre-supposing your nihilist stance; my argument with you was that you’d misunderstood Nietzsche. And (one of) my arguments with you is that you are so eager to discredit nihilism, you fail to understand that Neitzsche was, in fact, an existential nihilist.  This doesn’t mean that he hates life, it only means that he recognized that life has no *INHERENT* meaning.  One of mny other arguments with you is your failure to acknowledge the meaning of the word "inherent" in this context. Where am I eager to discredit nihilism?  When?  My attitude is ‘I don’t know’, I’m more an agnostic.

My, how you have changed your tone!  before, you were posting all this happy crap about being "life-affirming", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean!

But, I’ve been saying, or trying to say, that I’m willing to make your nihilist viewpoint a given, and then my question is "so what?"  What’s your point?  Everything is meaningless, but stuff still exists…  Stuff like love and sex and I have these amazing giant Sunset Azaleas that are blooming right now… What’s your point?  That’s what I want to know.

My point is simply that spending your life worrying about legacies or thinking that you are actually going to have any kind of *lasting* impact is a fantasy, and that traditional concepts of meaning and morality are shams.  A point which has been hammered home sufficiently by now!   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Are you impressed when hundreds or thousands of innocent people aqre killed for economic reasons?  Kaczinski is light years ahead of virtually everyone on the planet, it really is a shame that most people are so easily led and intellectually repressed that they buy into the government and media’s portrayal of him. Apparently you really believe that; I’m so sorry.  I did read his stuff, almost all 200+ paragraphs, and he’s got some interesting points on leftist inferiority and so on.  But he’s crazy as hell.  My comment on his personal hygiene was tongue in cheek, but frankly, the way he lived up in that little cabin is, yes, a clue to his mental condition.  And your genius failed to realize that blowing people up makes them extremely unlikely to want to take any of your ideas seriously.  Not to mention that his ideas aren’t so unique.   Well, it didn’t do any good.  He is a failure.  The only one listening is you, to everybody else he’s a paranoid schizophrenic.  (I’ll take your word on the hygiene…)  

Wow!  Have you read http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html ? I’ll have to let Sun Microsystems’ cheif scientist know that he’s not supposed to be listening to Kaczinski (actually, I am sure that plenty of people like you have told him that already!!!)  What you may never understand is that Truth is not a popularity contest.  Britney Spears is not "better" than Frank Zappa, just because she has had more #1 hits.   Ted would still be free, too, were it not for his scum-sucking brother.  You may call him a "failure", but it is humanity that will pay the ultimate price, as his predictions unfold.  Of course, this is what the human race richly deserves, anyway.  Enjoy the decline and fall, ’cause I know I will!!!

Anyway, what’s your point?  I am willing to go to the edge of the abyss and look down into the bottomless depths with you.  Well, as long as you don’t push me in, I’m not ready to go, yet.  But now what? Isn’t that a much more interesting question? -Empress

Now let’s cut the bullshit out of our lives, and get some kicks!!!  Radical, mindbending kicks . . . After all, why the fuck not?  That is the question, isn’t it? Subversion

Response:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:25:08 -0700, Empress of the Known Universe <empresso…@yahoo.com

wrote: On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:28:48 GMT, J. F. Kendricks <nos…@newsranger.com wrote: I find your necrophilia disturbing, yes.  Call it nihilism if you like, you’re in love with death. Why does that disturb you? At least you admit it.

But why does it disturb you? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Nihilism, to me, is the only realistic answer to the question, "does existence have any inherent meaning"?  Sure, our lives can have meaning to us, just like we strive to win a competition that is meaningless outside of its own context – how will any of this have mattered, though, once this shithouse we live in has finally gone up in flames?  If you have an answer to this question, or think that Neitzsche has an explanation that I have misunderstood, I am sincerely interested in hearing it. Read this: ************ http://www.cwu.edu/~millerj/writings/nihilism.html This was obviously written by someone with an anti-nihilism agenda.  You are aware that *some* academics attempt to discredit others, for the purposes of furthering their own private agendas, are you not? If you read Nietzsche directly you will see that that the above paragraph is a correct understanding.  See also this quote:

Correct only in the limited context of its narrow definition of nihilism.  I have read Neitzsche, and nothing I have read, nor that you have posted, has convinced me that he is not a nihilist, in the existential sense of the word.

"For the game of creation, my brothers, a sacred "Yes" is needed: the spirit now wills its own will, and he who had been lost to the world now conquers his own world." And another commentary: ….If we are not to die of nausea, we must bite through it and literally thrust ourselves into a new world where we can greet eternity with a Yes that loves life.

Why do you believe that it is impossible to love life, even though it has no inherent meaning? I also love death, although I believe that death has no inherent meaning, either.  Ditto for sex.  8-D

Anyway, the answer to this question depends upon on how you define nihilism.  I have been speaking of existential nihilism, which is essentially the belief that existence is without *inherent* meaning or purpose. Many people have posted that they give their lives meaning, and I do not disagree (nor do I believe Neitzsche woudl disagree).  This does not negate my statement that existence has no *inherent* meaning.  Do I need to define "inherent"?  Here it is: "Permanently existing in something; inseparably attached or connected; naturally pertaining to; innate; inalienable". I suppose we’re not communicating very well.  I am pre-supposing your nihilist stance; my argument with you was that you’d misunderstood Nietzsche.

And (one of) my arguments with you is that you are so eager to discredit nihilism, you fail to understand that Neitzsche was, in fact, an existential nihilist.  This doesn’t mean that he hates life, it only means that he recognized that life has no *INHERENT* meaning.  One of mny other arguments with you is your failure to acknowledge the meaning of the word "inherent" in this context. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Or read Zarathustra – you may come to find that Nietzsche was in love with life!     Which is not at all incompatible with accepting the fact that existence has no inherent meaning or purpose. No argument. How about the US bomber pilots in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc.? They blew people up – are they all insane?  How about the presidents and military strategists that ordered these bombings?  Have you ever heard of a higher cause? Yes, and I don’t think Ted fits my criteria. His cause is much higher than that of any U.S conflict in the past several decades, which were all fought simply for economic or strategic reasons. And Ted’s cause was to save humanity from itself by demolishing the industrial society to return it to Wild Nature.  So to that end, he chose to kill a few people, maim a couple others.  No, I’m not impressed by Ted’s cause.

Are you impressed when hundreds or thousands of innocent people aqre killed for economic reasons?  Kaczinski is light years ahead of virtually everyone on the planet, it really is a shame that most people are so easily led and intellectually repressed that they buy into the government and media’s portrayal of him.

It is necessary to make an impression, if one is to compelte with the media for attention for his cause.  Your bias is *really* showing, which should be an embarrassment to you, since you haven’t even read his works.  Basing your opinion of a man on his hygience . . . your credibility is nosediving. My "bias"???  Yup, my bias is showing; my bias against blowing people up to make a point that people are suffering.  How’s *your* hygiene, by the way?

My hygiene is fine.  And he didn’t just blow people up to make a point; the impression he was making was part of a last ditch effort to reverse the trend toward the domination and micromanagement of our lives.  

If everything is meaningless, why not add more pain, destruction and misery to the pile?   Is this a rhetorical question? No, this appears to me to be your attitude. But can you answer it? Yes, but I don’t think you can.

I think I’ll make a t-shirt out of it instead. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

This is one of the reasons why Nietzsche, Hunter S. Thompson and Kaczinski are my heroes – they are in search of understanding reality, whatever that may be – not the protection of delusions. Which is the greater concern to you? Listen, I’ll say it again.  (Try real hard, ok?)  Reality includes some really good stuff!  Nieetzsche’s point, it seems to me, was to accept suffering because of the good stuff.  He rejected Christ in favor of Dionysus, who said "YES" *despite* the meaninglessness of existence and its suffering.   Hey, I am all in favor of enjoying the good stuff!  Did you forget who you are speaking with?  8-D OK.  Now we can argue about what’s "good stuff".  Wait, no, I think we did that already and agreed to disagree… Your "heroes" are pathetic wimpy losers, they are crying, whiny babies!!!  All they know how to say is "NO". You have obviously never read Hunter Thompson or Kaczinski. Don’t forget Brett Easton Ellis – Less Than Zero and American Psycho…

Ellis is a brilliant writer, but not *quite* as inspired as Thomspon or Kaczinski. Subversion

Response:

One last thing before I go back to sleep. John Kendricks wrote:

Nihilism, to me, is the only realistic answer to the question, "does existence have any inherent meaning"?

This is reasonable position but a dire one. People mostly adopt the philosophies and belief systems that allow them to do exactly what they want. When these beliefs restrict them from what they want, they bend adapt or reject them. This isn’t aimed at you just an observation on how patheticly disappointing and selfish people are.Sleeperzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Response:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:14:06 -0700, Empress of the Known Universe <empresso…@yahoo.com

wrote: On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:30:15 GMT, John Kendricks <nos…@newsranger.com wrote: I find your necrophilia disturbing, yes.  Call it nihilism if you like, you’re in love with death.

Why does that disturb you? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Nihilism, to me, is the only realistic answer to the question, "does existence have any inherent meaning"?  Sure, our lives can have meaning to us, just like we strive to win a competition that is meaningless outside of its own context – how will any of this have mattered, though, once this shithouse we live in has finally gone up in flames?  If you have an answer to this question, or think that Neitzsche has an explanation that I have misunderstood, I am sincerely interested in hearing it. Read this: ************ http://www.cwu.edu/~millerj/writings/nihilism.html The most common misconception about Nietzsche, held widely in both popular and academic works, is that Nietzsche was a nihilist. Nihilism is undoubtedly one of the central themes of his works, but it is not his statement but his question mark! Like Kierkegaard before him and Camus after him, Nietzsche was concerned with the effects of nihilism and looked for ways around its monstrous conclusions. Nietzsche does not, however, succumb to the temptations of the Void but attempts to reconstruct human endeavor in the face of it. *************

This was obviously written by someone with an anti-nihilism agenda.  You are aware that *some* academics attempt to discredit others, for the purposes of furthering their own private agendas, are you not? Anyway, the answer to this question depends upon on how you define nihilism.  I have been speaking of existential nihilism, which is essentially the belief that existence is without *inherent* meaning or purpose. Many people have posted that they give their lives meaning, and I do not disagree (nor do I believe Neitzsche woudl disagree).  This does not negate my statement that existence has no *inherent* meaning.  Do I need to define "inherent"?  Here it is: "Permanently existing in something; inseparably attached or connected; naturally pertaining to; innate; inalienable".  

Or read Zarathustra – you may come to find that Nietzsche was in love with life!    

Which is not at all incompatible with accepting the fact that existence has no inherent meaning or purpose.

How about the US bomber pilots in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc.? They blew people up – are they all insane?  How about the presidents and military strategists that ordered these bombings?  Have you ever heard of a higher cause? Yes, and I don’t think Ted fits my criteria.

His cause is much higher than that of any U.S conflict in the past several decades, which were all fought simply for economic or strategic reasons. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Here is his explanation for the bombings: "Freedom of the press is of very little use to the average citizen as an individual. The mass media are mostly under the control of large organizations that are integrated into the system. Anyone who has a little money can have something printed, or can distribute it on the Internet or in some such way, but what he has to say will be swamped by the vast volume of material put out by the media, hence it will have no practical effect. To make an impression on society with words is therefore almost impossible for most individuals and small groups. Take us (FC) for example. If we had never done anything violent and had submitted the present writings to a publisher, they probably would not have been accepted. If they had been accepted and published, they probably would not have attracted many readers, because it’s more fun to watch the entertainment put out by the media than to read a sober essay. Even if these writings had had many readers, most of these readers would soon have forgotten what they had read as their minds were flooded by the mass of material to which the media expose them. In order to get our message before the public with some chance of making a lasting impression, we’ve had to kill people." Very articulate and well-reasoned, if you ask me. And evil, by the way.  Kill people to make an impression???  Hello.

It is necessary to make an impression, if one is to compelte with the media for attention for his cause.  Your bias is *really* showing, which should be an embarrassment to you, since you haven’t even read his works.  Basing your opinion of a man on his hygience . . . your credibility is nosediving.

If everything is meaningless, why not add more pain, destruction and misery to the pile?   Is this a rhetorical question? No, this appears to me to be your attitude.

But can you answer it?

When you say "become the horror" you mean it, that’s what gives you kicks. I don’t recall saying this.  What was the context? Your "become a beast" quote, it reminds me of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now.

Cool flick.

I hope you are not going to do what damn near everyone else in here does, and pick up and run when the conversation heads down an alley you are afraid to venture into. You’re really annoying, you know that?  I have other things to do.

It must be annoying to have your treasured delusions smashed to bits.  Tough break.

This is one of the reasons why Nietzsche, Hunter S. Thompson and Kaczinski are my heroes – they are in search of understanding reality, whatever that may be – not the protection of delusions. Which is the greater concern to you? Listen, I’ll say it again.  (Try real hard, ok?)  Reality includes some really good stuff!  Nieetzsche’s point, it seems to me, was to accept suffering because of the good stuff.  He rejected Christ in favor of Dionysus, who said "YES" *despite* the meaninglessness of existence and its suffering.  

Hey, I am all in favor of enjoying the good stuff!  Did you forget who you are speaking with?  8-D

Your "heroes" are pathetic wimpy losers, they are crying, whiny babies!!!  All they know how to say is "NO".

You have obviously never read Hunter Thompson or Kaczinski.

Dylan Klebold shot Cassie Bernall in the head.  Does that impress you? If so, which part of it?  That a teenage kid could kill, or that another teenage kid could look down the barrel and say "Fuck you, go ahead and kill me".

The part where two oppressed human beings took their destiny into their own hands, and struck back against their oppressors.  I thought that was a beautiful affirmation of the resilience of the human spirit!!!

So tell me – do you believe in love?

Yes, I do.  How about you? Subversion

Response:

Empress, I am rather disappointed at the way you ran from the nihilism discussion, just because you found it disturbing.  I am very sincere in the views I am expressing, and would expect that someone who is as knowledgeable about philosophy as you claim to be should be able to discuss these points, rather than get upset that I have opinions that people are not "supposed" to have.   Nihilism, to me, is the only realistic answer to the question, "does existence have any inherent meaning"?  Sure, our lives can have meaning to us, just like we strive to win a competition that is meaningless outside of its own context – how will any of this have mattered, though, once this shithouse we live in has finally gone up in flames?  If you have an answer to this question, or think that Neitzsche has an explanation that I have misunderstood, I am sincerely interested in hearing it.     Additional comments are inserted below. In article <jsnget8nq1l3ntatgmh6ek8ukdc6she…@4ax.com

, Empress of the Known

Universe says…

The only thing I can’t understand is why (Kaczinski) doesn’t just accept that, kick back, and enjoy the decline and fall, as I am doing! At least there’s *something* about him you don’t understand.  I suppose the fact that he was insane doesn’t bother you, that no matter how brilliant, he was a couple tacos shy of a combo plate, but hey…

That is a premature conclusion on your part, since you haven’t even read his works.  Where did you draw your conclusions from, media coverage?  

He blew people up, kendricks.  So I guess this is where our conversation brings us, eh?  

How about the US bomber pilots in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc.? They blew people up – are they all insane?  How about the presidents and military strategists that ordered these bombings?  Have you ever heard of a higher cause? Here is his explanation for the bombings: "Freedom of the press is of very little use to the average citizen as an individual. The mass media are mostly under the control of large organizations that are integrated into the system. Anyone who has a little money can have something printed, or can distribute it on the Internet or in some such way, but what he has to say will be swamped by the vast volume of material put out by the media, hence it will have no practical effect. To make an impression on society with words is therefore almost impossible for most individuals and small groups. Take us (FC) for example. If we had never done anything violent and had submitted the present writings to a publisher, they probably would not have been accepted. If they had been accepted and published, they probably would not have attracted many readers, because it’s more fun to watch the entertainment put out by the media than to read a sober essay. Even if these writings had had many readers, most of these readers would soon have forgotten what they had read as their minds were flooded by the mass of material to which the media expose them. In order to get our message before the public with some chance of making a lasting impression, we’ve had to kill people." Very articulate and well-reasoned, if you ask me.

If everything is meaningless, why not add more pain, destruction and misery to the pile?  

Is this a rhetorical question?

When you say "become the horror" you mean it, that’s what gives you kicks.

I don’t recall saying this.  What was the context?

I’m late for my usenet addicts anonymous meeting.  

I could use one of those myself . . .

I’ll think about taking up some of my precious time to discuss Nietzsche with you later.  But I’m not much interested, anymore.

I hope you are not going to do what damn near everyone else in here does, and pick up and run when the conversation heads down an alley you are afraid to venture into.   This is one of the reasons why Nietzsche, Hunter S. Thompson and Kaczinski are my heroes – they are in search of understanding reality, whatever that may be – not the protection of delusions. Which is the greater concern to you? Subversion

Response:

Question:

<luvg…@my-deja.com

wrote in message news:8rggjn$tbn$1@nnrp1.deja.com… I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time before talking to him about this again.  I may in the future decide to show him this, or some version thereof. Dear Husband, Today I came home to some lovely new pictures you have saved on our computer.  Of a girl about half your age.  I am asking you one more time to stop.  I simply cannot take it any more.  You don’t understand why this is hurts me, well I am asking you one more time to just believe me when I say it does – I am not making it up or telling you it hurts just to control what you do.  I am the first to say there is nothing wrong with porn, WHEN you are not hurting anyone.

Porn ALWAYS hurts someone.  As you say, it hurts you.  You are supposed to be the sole object of your husband’s sexual attention. Proverbs 5:19 says you are to be his ONLY satisfaction.  YOUR breasts ALONE are to satisfy him. Fact: your husband IS in adultery, whether our not you acknowledge it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

But you ARE hurting someone.  Me.  Your wife.  The last person on earth you should want to hurt and the person you should be willing to do just about anything for. I lose love for you everytime I experience this, and I am seething with resentment.  I dont’ want to live this way. I have too much self respect to stay with someone who continually hurts me, even if it is, in your mind, unintentional and unwarranted.  Is this porn so important that it is worth losing me over?  I have left you about a dozen times in my mind over this.  Don’t make the rest of me follow.  I am not threatening, I am not playing games I am simply telling you what will happen.  If you are not ABLE to stop, then seek help.  I will *help* you find help if you want.  I will leave you alone to do it without me if you prefer.  I don’t care how it happens, I just know that I cannot be married to someone who continually goes against my wishes, who finds in a computer what he cannot find in his wife, and who will not alter damaging behavior to avoid further damaging the woman who he loves and who loves him more than life.

Again, you are realizing the devistation that porn causes.  You recognize that this porn is stealing pleasure from you that rightly belongs to you. You are a victim of women who hate women, women’s lib.  It is a total lie that porn doesn’t hurt anybody.  You state the damage well in this letter. It is destroying you.  you ARE a victim of this "victimless" crime.  All this is defended under the lie of "free speech."  Tell that to the founding fathers!  They resoundingly CONDEMNED such filth for what it really is, SIN. It destroys families.  Most rapists are influenced in their behavior by porn.  Most child molesters are influenced by porn. Well, I need to get to MY private (and only) "porn queen", my wife.  She needs my attention.  I’m going into withdrawl, too!  It’s been a few hours since I gave her a hug and kiss.  Night! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

L What do you think?  Who here wouldn’t do this for your spouse?  Who wouldn’t turn off the computer, pop the tape out of the VCR or throw the porno mag in the trash faster than you can say teenage slut?  I know I would. Luvgirl – who is going to take a bath, drink some wine, and cry so she can put on a "happy face" when he is home. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time before talking to him about this again.  I may in the future decide to show him this, or some version thereof. Dear Husband, Today I came home to some lovely new pictures you have saved on our computer.  Of a girl about half your age.  I am asking you one more time to stop.  I simply cannot take it any more.  You don’t understand why this is hurts me, well I am asking you one more time to just believe me when I say it does – I am not making it up or telling you it hurts just to control what you do.  I am the first to say there is nothing wrong with porn, WHEN you are not hurting anyone.  But you ARE hurting someone.  Me.  Your wife.  The last person on earth you should want to hurt and the person you should be willing to do just about anything for. I lose love for you everytime I experience this, and I am seething with resentment.  I dont’ want to live this way. I have too much self respect to stay with someone who continually hurts me, even if it is, in your mind, unintentional and unwarranted.  Is this porn so important that it is worth losing me over?  I have left you about a dozen times in my mind over this.  Don’t make the rest of me follow.  I am not threatening, I am not playing games I am simply telling you what will happen.  If you are not ABLE to stop, then seek help.  I will *help* you find help if you want.  I will leave you alone to do it without me if you prefer.  I don’t care how it happens, I just know that I cannot be married to someone who continually goes against my wishes, who finds in a computer what he cannot find in his wife, and who will not alter damaging behavior to avoid further damaging the woman who he loves and who loves him more than life. L What do you think?  Who here wouldn’t do this for your spouse?  Who wouldn’t turn off the computer, pop the tape out of the VCR or throw the porno mag in the trash faster than you can say teenage slut?  I know I would. Luvgirl – who is going to take a bath, drink some wine, and cry so she can put on a "happy face" when he is home. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:02:50 -0700, "urf" <urf…@nospam.com

wrote: I am sure he does not.  But I know that if I had a behavior that hurt him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop. Would you stop complaining about his viewing porn?

Hmmm Urf .. I thought luvgirl was complaining about the lack of sex. If he spent all his time polishing his fire engine or building model boats, it seems to me as if she would have the same valid complaint. Floridanewbie

Response:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:50:49 GMT, luvg…@my-deja.com wrote:

While I appreciate all replies, I didn’t mean to open a religious can of worms.  My husband and I are not religious, however please don’t point to that as the problem.  To each his own. I respect your beliefs but please respect mine too.  Your view is very extreme.

While I may respect his right to believe anything he wishes I do NOT have to respect those beliefs.  In "Mike Dobony" <tkdc…@hotmail.com

posts I find nothing which I value.  I’d rather see more posts from the Olgas of the world, looking for a way to escape a dreary, broken economy than to see his focus on SIN.   Oddly, people disposed to religious arguments already go to church in droves so why come here to preach to the heathens ("heathen" being defined as someone who does not believe exactly as he believes).

It is not realistic for me to expect my husband to adopt this view (nor do I want him to) therefore it is not very helpful to my situation.  Maybe others are more helped by this.  Again, thank you, but the bible will not help us.  I need a more practical solution and I just don’t know what that is yet.

You did not open the religious can of worms … people like "Mike Dobony" <tkdc…@hotmail.com

find their openings everywhere since to

them the world is nothing but an evil, sinful place. Floridanewbie

Response:

In article <8ri60a$6v…@nnrp1.deja.com

,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  skyel…@my-deja.com wrote:

luvg…@my-deja.com wrote: Luvgirl – who is going to take a bath, drink some wine, and cry so

she

can put on a "happy face" when he is home. hi luvgirl, Sometimes it’s best to let him see you cry and allow him to see your pain so that he can see how deeply he’s hurting you.  A letter is so informal (it has it’s place sometimes too), but I think it’s okay to let him see how much pain you’re in. As for the porn thing, this can be a type of addiction for some people.  It most probably is if you’ve asked him to stop and he

hasn’t,

or if he’s resorted to hiding it from you. He’s going to need to want to stop this behavior on his own.. but some incentive coming from your direction might help him along the way. I can certainly understand why this would be so hurtful for you.  I, personally, do not see much hope in recovery from addictions.  That’s just based on my own personal observations and that certainly isn’t meant to discourage you.  But I’m just wondering, if he cannot

overcome

this, are you willing to leave him? good luck to both of you.. skyelark

Skyelark,  I agree with everything you said except not being hopeful about recovery.  I know from personal experience that people can and do recover from addictions.  But it doesn’t happen unless they want recovery desperately and are willing to "go to any lengths" for it… that’s where setting the limits comes in for the spouse; why should he stop if he can have his cake and eat it, too?  Luvgirl, if you put on a happy face, you’re enabling him, do you know what that means?  And yes, you may have to leave him in order for him to "get it".  But the more you put up with this, the more damage you do to yourself.  Good Luck, sweetie. Empress of the Known Universe Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirt Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

luvgirl, Do a search for the porn addiction post that was here by milodog.  It has links to Sex Addicts Anonymous, self-test questions, and support groups for both addict and spouse.  Looks like it could be an excellent resource.  It’s sponsored by a religious group, but don’t let that get in the way.  I’m not a traditionally religious person, but spirituality in some sense seems to be at the core of healing addiction for many people. -Empress of the Known Universe "To Rule Is To Serve" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Please elaborate with putting myself in his situation: I (the wife) have the porn habit?  Or (as him) my wife wants me to stop looking at porn? Either way I KNOW I would do anything humanly possible for him.  Maybe I am TOO accomodating?  If I had a behavior that hurt him and I didn’t understand why, I would ask him to help me understand.  I would look into his eyes and listen to his voice and see the pain he is going through.  And then I would do what it takes to stop.  Plain and simple. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

luvg…@my-deja.com wrote:

Luvgirl – who is going to take a bath, drink some wine, and cry so she can put on a "happy face" when he is home.

hi luvgirl, Sometimes it’s best to let him see you cry and allow him to see your pain so that he can see how deeply he’s hurting you.  A letter is so informal (it has it’s place sometimes too), but I think it’s okay to let him see how much pain you’re in. As for the porn thing, this can be a type of addiction for some people.  It most probably is if you’ve asked him to stop and he hasn’t, or if he’s resorted to hiding it from you. He’s going to need to want to stop this behavior on his own.. but some incentive coming from your direction might help him along the way. I can certainly understand why this would be so hurtful for you.  I, personally, do not see much hope in recovery from addictions.  That’s just based on my own personal observations and that certainly isn’t meant to discourage you.  But I’m just wondering, if he cannot overcome this, are you willing to leave him? good luck to both of you.. skyelark Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

I would doubt that Urf is trying to shut you up. He may be thinking the same thing that I was thinking, but have thus far avoided saying to avoid getting embroiled in yet another pornography thread: take your post and reverse all the pronouns and other salient details and consider the matter from his point of view for a moment. I don’t intend to defend pornography, or even attack it, I’m just talking about "deconstructing" your point of view. You’d be surprised what paths it leads you down. M. in article 8ri2np$3v…@nnrp1.deja.com, luvg…@my-deja.com at luvg…@my-deja.com wrote on 10/5/00 8:20 AM: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <8ri0sf$i…@bob.news.rcn.net, "urf" <urf…@nospam.com wrote: I am sure he does not.  But I know that if I had a behavior that hurt him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop. Would you stop complaining about his viewing porn? Is this a non-question that means you just want me to shut up?  Or are you asking me if I would stop if….?  In that case, if what??  I am not sure what you mean. If he would make love to me more than twice a month I probably would. Until then, I can’t help my feelings, these two things are connected. My next step is to leave and then he can have all of the silence (i.e. non-complaining) he wants. (and the porn for that matter). Why should I have to be the one stop?  I know two wrongs don’t make a right, but why is he the one to get what he wants at the expense of my feelings?  Why should I have to put up with this?  I think we need to compromise, but if it IS a true addiction then there must be some type of extra help involved.  He hasn’t been able to compromise, at least that is how I feel. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

The trouble with monogamy is that when you are in it, sex becomes an activity unlike any other in that you cannot do it with anyone else

if

your spouse isn’t interested.  My wife has been depressed for so long

now

that I honestly can’t remember what she did on her own, but I’m sure there was something.  As for my part, I had many activities that I enjoyed and she did not enjoy so much (or was just to depressed to participate in).  Anyway, the point is that I was not SO very

frustrated

because I could always go out and do things with other people.  If I enjoyed reading and discussing a certain book, say, and my wife

wasn’t

into it, I could just call a friend who WAS interested. Sex, however, is a problem there.  You can’t just have sex with a

friend

because your spouse isn’t interested.  Well, I hear tell that SOME couples have a system where this works, but unfortunately we just

aren’t

socialized for it as a society, so it doesn’t usually work (and in

any

event if it does, it isn’t monogamy).

Exactly!  And I am not interested in having sex just to have sex.  I want the intimacy and the emotional connection that comes along with having sex with *him*.  I would never cheat on him, and I *know* how to masturbate.  It’s not the orgasm, its the whole package.  Including feeling good because he desires me, that is a huge part of it.

Just to play Devil’s Advocate — your desire for more sex is hurting

him

in that it is making him very uncomfortable.  Could you just "give it

up"

for him?  I don’t think so.  Note that I am on "your side" in this because I know more or less how you feel, having been in a similar situation for years (though with me it felt more like my wife "loved"

her

depression more than me, rather than porn). I’m not saying you should stop desiring sex!

In "give it up" do you mean just drop the issue?  That is precisely what i have been doing, hardcore, for the past few weeks since our last fight.  But it makes me withdraw completely, because if I have to hold back on my affection, etc. I have to withdraw with everything.  I have not been calling him, I have hardly been talking to him, looking him in the eye, kissing him when I get home, etc.  I am receptive to him when he reaches out, I am not cold or rude, I am just not making overtures. I am TOTALLY determined to let him come to me for once, something I have tried in the past and not been able to do for very long.  In truth, my desire to have sex is waning.  I think it is just "that" time that I am finally sick and tired of the whole thing, I have reached my capacity to put up with it any more.  I will try this for awhile because like I said, I haven’t been able to go through with it in the past.  If it doesn’t work, and the book doesn’t work, etc. I will ask him to go to counseling with me.  If he refuses, I have no choice but to leave, as much as it will hurt, as Gloria Gaynor says "I will survive".

I wonder if he may have some weird fantasy that he is afraid to bring

up

to you?  Or maybe he is unhappy with sex with you for some reason? Honestly until he communicates his thoughts to you things aren’t

going to

get better (and you may well split even if he DOES tell you

everything).

 I just sense he is holding something back from you.

I think he is too.  I have asked him this, I have told him I am willing to do *anything* he wants (feeling I know him well enough to know that he would not ask me to do anything totally deviant).  Our last talk which was very rational, he said he is content with our sexlife.  I can’t believe this is true when I am so *not*.  But if I am willing to hear what he has to say, why wouldn’t he just tell me?  I am SO open minded about sex.

Maybe he thinks YOU are a "sex addict"!  Wouldn’t THAT be a kick in

the

head!  "Your sex addiction is destroying our relationship, please

stop

wanting sex and let me get back to my porn."

Oh god, wouldn’t that be ironic!

I know we all tend to hate "you GO girl" in this forum, but that’s

pretty

much how I feel about you right now.  You are taking control of your

own

life and that is a good thing.  Congratulations.

Thanks, that is really what I like to hear.  It just helps to have support, you know??

You do not sound frustrated or angry anymore, just determined to fix

the

problems in your life, doing whatever it takes.  MUCH more productive than either of the first two.

I am actually VERY angry, but also becoming numb.  I feel there is nothing more I can do right now.  Bitching about it doesn’t work so it is time to try the opposite.  If that doesn’t work, counseling, and so on… I am truly not trying to make the porn go away completely.  I know there are millions and millions of husbands who look at this stuff.  It just bugs the shit out of me that he is not sensitive in this arena.  I have asked him time and time again how he would feel if I was looking at naked men with big hard d*&ks?  He gives the typical "I don’t know".  Well he is going to get to know, because I am going to spend a few days a week on www.hotstud.com and leave it in the history for him to find.  If he asks me about it I will tell him I took his advice and decided to masturbate more.  See how you like it, dear husband.  I hate to play such games, I really do, but I just feel like it is worth a try.

No, no children and we don’t want any.  I know many people may get

into

that situation, but I am not stupid. HEY!  :^/ Ahh, you’re right.  Never mind.

Wasn’t referring to you or your situation, wasn’t aware this is your case?  Just mean I would never never want to be in that situation.  And I don’t want children to begin with, so having one to "fix" our relationship would be all the more ludicrous. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Mike Dobony wrote:

You don’t believe me?  Try it yourself!  Give that picture a hug.  Does she hug back?  Give it a kiss.  Does she kiss back?  Give it a fee.                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now THERE’S a Freudian slip.         – Ron   ^*^

Response:

luvg…@my-deja.com wrote:

My resentment is being a beautiful, vital woman married to a beautiful vital man who masterbates to pictures of naked women on the internet more often than he has sex with me.  I am losing love and respect.  I don’t care about being "left out" of certain aspects of his life, he does lots of things that have nothing to do with me, but they are not sexual.

The trouble with monogamy is that when you are in it, sex becomes an activity unlike any other in that you cannot do it with anyone else if your spouse isn’t interested.  My wife has been depressed for so long now that I honestly can’t remember what she did on her own, but I’m sure there was something.  As for my part, I had many activities that I enjoyed and she did not enjoy so much (or was just to depressed to participate in).  Anyway, the point is that I was not SO very frustrated because I could always go out and do things with other people.  If I enjoyed reading and discussing a certain book, say, and my wife wasn’t into it, I could just call a friend who WAS interested. Sex, however, is a problem there.  You can’t just have sex with a friend because your spouse isn’t interested.  Well, I hear tell that SOME couples have a system where this works, but unfortunately we just aren’t socialized for it as a society, so it doesn’t usually work (and in any event if it does, it isn’t monogamy).

I am losing love probably as a defense mechanism because I am losing my optimism about whether or not he will help fix this and it will help me leave if I have to.

Yeah, that is exactly what is happening.

I know that if I had a behavior that hurt him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop.

Just to play Devil’s Advocate — your desire for more sex is hurting him in that it is making him very uncomfortable.  Could you just "give it up" for him?  I don’t think so.  Note that I am on "your side" in this because I know more or less how you feel, having been in a similar situation for years (though with me it felt more like my wife "loved" her depression more than me, rather than porn). I’m not saying you should stop desiring sex!

I am not against him masterbating, but I refuse to stay married to someone who does this and makes lame excuses about why we "don’t have time" for sex.  F$*K that.  At least give me equal time.

I wonder if he may have some weird fantasy that he is afraid to bring up to you?  Or maybe he is unhappy with sex with you for some reason?   Honestly until he communicates his thoughts to you things aren’t going to get better (and you may well split even if he DOES tell you everything).  I just sense he is holding something back from you.

I know I can’t stop him, but he can stop himself if he wanted to do it for our relationship.  I don’t think stopping a behavior is comparable to eating a food which you find repulsive.  If I was a smoker and he wanted me to stop, or an alcoholic, or gambling addict, and it was destroying our relationship, I would find the help I needed to stop.  I don’t know if this is a true addiction or not, but I would compare it to one.  I mean, three years ago we didn’t even have a damn computer.

Maybe he thinks YOU are a "sex addict"!  Wouldn’t THAT be a kick in the head!  "Your sex addiction is destroying our relationship, please stop wanting sex and let me get back to my porn."

I am prepared to leave.  I don’t know how or when but if I have to I will.  I am strong.  I know about not following through with your proposed actions, I have done it before and I know it is ineffective. I refuse to say this if I didn’t mean it to him.  I am beyond just trying to get a reaction out of him.

I know we all tend to hate "you GO girl" in this forum, but that’s pretty much how I feel about you right now.  You are taking control of your own life and that is a good thing.  Congratulations. You do not sound frustrated or angry anymore, just determined to fix the problems in your life, doing whatever it takes.  MUCH more productive than either of the first two.

No, no children and we don’t want any.  I know many people may get into that situation, but I am not stupid.

HEY!  :^/ Ahh, you’re right.  Never mind.

Thanks for your responses – I may have gotten a little defensive, but I am just so pissed off.  Your response is thought provoking and that is productive.

Good luck.  Let us know how it turns out.         – Ron   ^*^

Response:

In article <8ri0sf$i…@bob.news.rcn.net

,

  "urf" <urf…@nospam.com

wrote: I am sure he does not.  But I know that if I had a behavior that

hurt

him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop. Would you stop complaining about his viewing porn?

Is this a non-question that means you just want me to shut up?  Or are you asking me if I would stop if….?  In that case, if what??  I am not sure what you mean. If he would make love to me more than twice a month I probably would. Until then, I can’t help my feelings, these two things are connected. My next step is to leave and then he can have all of the silence (i.e. non-complaining) he wants. (and the porn for that matter). Why should I have to be the one stop?  I know two wrongs don’t make a right, but why is he the one to get what he wants at the expense of my feelings?  Why should I have to put up with this?  I think we need to compromise, but if it IS a true addiction then there must be some type of extra help involved.  He hasn’t been able to compromise, at least that is how I feel. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

I am sure he does not.  But I know that if I had a behavior that hurt him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop.

Would you stop complaining about his viewing porn? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<luvg…@my-deja.com

wrote in message news:8rhpm5$s76$1@nnrp1.deja.com… In article <20001004203553.03795.00000…@ng-fu1.aol.com,   oceanmo…@aol.comaol.como (Oceanmomma) wrote: From: luvg…@my-deja.com I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time before talking to him about this again. Did he make a promise to you to stop looking at porn?  Or did you decide that he should stop without his agreement?  Does he think that he has a problem ? Or do you unilaterally think that he has a problem?  The answers make a difference as to what realistic expectations are in this case. He has promised to cut it down.  He has promised to try to have sex more.  Neither last long, if they happen at all.  The fact that this comes up OVER and OVER indicates a problem.  I have tried to compromise on the favor of his side, but I feel he does not hold up his end of the bargain.  I asked him "could you give it up if you HAD to?"  his answer was "I don’t know"  I think that indicates a problem. I lose love for you everytime I experience this, and I am seething with resentment. Are you losing love or are you losing respect?  What is your resentment about? A broken promise or feeling left out? My resentment is being a beautiful, vital woman married to a beautiful vital man who masterbates to pictures of naked women on the internet more often than he has sex with me.  I am losing love and respect.  I don’t care about being "left out" of certain aspects of his life, he does lots of things that have nothing to do with me, but they are not sexual.  I am losing love probably as a defense mechanism because I am losing my optimism about whether or not he will help fix this and it will help me leave if I have to.  If you are not ABLE to stop, then seek help.  I will *help* you find help if you want.  Does he think that he should stop? I am sure he does not.  But I know that if I had a behavior that hurt him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop.  I am not against him masterbating, but I refuse to stay married to someone who does this and makes lame excuses about why we "don’t have time" for sex.  F$*K that.  At least give me equal time. Does he want help? I doubt it.  If he doesn’t think he has a problem, or we have a problem, what need is there for help? You can no sooner stop him from  looking at porn than you can force feed him tofu. I know I can’t stop him, but he can stop himself if he wanted to do it for our relationship.  I don’t think stopping a behavior is comparable to eating a food which you find repulsive.  If I was a smoker and he wanted me to stop, or an alcoholic, or gambling addict, and it was destroying our relationship, I would find the help I needed to stop.  I don’t know if this is a true addiction or not, but I would compare it to one.  I mean, three years ago we didn’t even have a damn computer. You can set boundaries by which he can choose to abide or not.  If he chooses not to, the consequences follow…not threats of concequences, but actually following through.  Like REALLY leaving unless he gets help. I am prepared to leave.  I don’t know how or when but if I have to I will.  I am strong.  I know about not following through with your proposed actions, I have done it before and I know it is ineffective. I refuse to say this if I didn’t mean it to him.  I am beyond just trying to get a reaction out of him. Do you have children?  If so, there’s a whole other can of worms.  If not, use some reliable birth control while you are deciding whether or not you are staying.  It would be a pity to bring a child  into this painful situation that you are in. No, no children and we don’t want any.  I know many people may get into that situation, but I am not stupid.  Thanks for your responses – I may have gotten a little defensive, but I am just so pissed off.  Your response is thought provoking and that is productive. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

While I appreciate all replies, I didn’t mean to open a religious can of worms.  My husband and I are not religious, however please don’t point to that as the problem.  To each his own. I respect your beliefs but please respect mine too.  Your view is very extreme.  It is not realistic for me to expect my husband to adopt this view (nor do I want him to) therefore it is not very helpful to my situation.  Maybe others are more helped by this.  Again, thank you, but the bible will not help us.  I need a more practical solution and I just don’t know what that is yet. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

From: "Mike Dobony" Porn ALWAYS hurts someone

How I hate that word always.  FYI…it doesn’t always hurt someone.  

You are

supposed to

be the sole object of your husband’s sexual attention. Proverbs 5:19 says you are to be his ONLY satisfaction.

Oh geeze…I should have known.

YOUR breasts ALONE are to satisfy him. Fact: your husband IS in adultery, whether our not you acknowledge it.

Well thank the lord we have you in this newsgroup to enlighten us on the facts!!!

Again, you are realizing the devistation that porn causes.  You recognize that this porn is stealing pleasure from you that rightly belongs to you. You are a victim of women who hate women, women’s lib.   You are a victim of women who hate women, women’s lib.  

Does the bible accept blame and judgement?

Well, I need to get to MY private (and only) "porn queen", my wife.  She needs my attention.  I’m going into withdrawl, too!  It’s been a few hours since I gave her a hug and kiss.  Night!

Wow…she is one lucky woman to have you!

Response:

Well, now that I’ve seen feminism blamed for pornography, I do believe I can say that I’ve seen everything. Gosh. The mind boggles. in article 8rgpqa$de…@ins21.netins.net, Mike Dobony at tkdc…@hotmail.com wrote on 10/4/00 8:42 PM: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Again, you are realizing the devistation that porn causes.  You recognize that this porn is stealing pleasure from you that rightly belongs to you. You are a victim of women who hate women, women’s lib.  It is a total lie that porn doesn’t hurt anybody.  You state the damage well in this letter. It is destroying you.  you ARE a victim of this "victimless" crime.  All this is defended under the lie of "free speech."  Tell that to the founding fathers!  They resoundingly CONDEMNED such filth for what it really is, SIN. It destroys families.  Most rapists are influenced in their behavior by porn.  Most child molesters are influenced by porn. Well, I need to get to MY private (and only) "porn queen", my wife.  She needs my attention.  I’m going into withdrawl, too!  It’s been a few hours since I gave her a hug and kiss.  Night!

Response:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 00:05:15 GMT, luvg…@my-deja.com wrote:

I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time before talking to him about this again.  I may in the future decide to show him this, or some version thereof.

<snip

In following alt.support.divorce, time and time again men and women have been blindsided with a divorce action, claiming they had no idea s/he was so unhappy with the way things were going. Assuming he understands what is at stake in your relationship, I would think he would leave no stone unturned in trying to come to some acceptable mutual level of understanding.   Sometimes it takes a 2×4 between the eyes for a person to see how serious something has become. Letting him know how this hurts you and what the consequences may be unless something changes gives him a wake up call …  I hope he realizes what thin ice your relationship is skating on. Floridanewbie

Response:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:42:20 -0500, "Mike Dobony" <tkdc…@hotmail.com

wrote: <snip

>Porn ALWAYS hurts someone.  As you say, it hurts you.  You are supposed to >be the sole object of your husband’s sexual attention. Proverbs 5:19 says >you are to be his ONLY satisfaction.  YOUR breasts ALONE are to satisfy him. >Fact: your husband IS in adultery, whether our not you acknowledge it.

Breasts ALONE are to satisfy him?   Hmmm, while breast worship can be fun, it seems there are some other parts of the female anatomy that might provide some satisfaction too … how do you have kids with this breast ALONE thing? <snip

>Again, you are realizing the devistation that porn causes.  You recognize >that this porn is stealing pleasure from you that rightly belongs to you. >You are a victim of women who hate women, women’s lib.  It is a total lie >that porn doesn’t hurt anybody.  You state the damage well in this letter. >It is destroying you.  you ARE a victim of this "victimless" crime.  All >this is defended under the lie of "free speech."  Tell that to the founding >fathers!  They resoundingly CONDEMNED such filth for what it really is, SIN. >It destroys families.  Most rapists are influenced in their behavior by >porn.  Most child molesters are influenced by porn.

I have discovered porn influences bible thumpering religious zealots .. drives them into such an irrational frenzy they get off on burning people at the stake.     How do you explain the phenomenal number of men and women who have viewed porn yet have not turned into rapists and child molesters?   I think letting the sun shine on your head causes the behavior you fear … better to stay in a cave out of the light of day.

Well, I need to get to MY private (and only) "porn queen", my wife.  She needs my attention.  I’m going into withdrawl, too!  It’s been a few hours since I gave her a hug and kiss.  Night!

What is this huggin’ and kissin’ stuff?  I thought breasts ALONE were all that was needed? By the way, what does the Bible say about using the tongue other than for the purpose of speech .. is that allowed in your interpretation? Floridanewbie, who has trouble taking posts like this seriously

Response:

<luvg…@my-deja.com

wrote in message news:8rggjn$tbn$1@nnrp1.deja.com… I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time before talking to him about this again.  I may in the future decide to show him this, or some version thereof.

<snip

Powerful stuff here, chin up ) *big hugs* <Rest of response e-mailed

Charlene

Response:

On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 04:25:40 GMT, floridanew…@hotmail.com (floridanewbie) wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:42:20 -0500, "Mike Dobony" <tkdc…@hotmail.com wrote: <snip Porn ALWAYS hurts someone.  As you say, it hurts you.  You are supposed to be the sole object of your husband’s sexual attention. Proverbs 5:19 says you are to be his ONLY satisfaction.  YOUR breasts ALONE are to satisfy him. Fact: your husband IS in adultery, whether our not you acknowledge it. Breasts ALONE are to satisfy him?   Hmmm, while breast worship can be fun, it seems there are some other parts of the female anatomy that might provide some satisfaction too … how do you have kids with this breast ALONE thing?

You mean you can’t get pregnant from French kissing? But I’m sure somebody told me that on the playground…             – Randy

Response:

In article <20001004203553.03795.00000…@ng-fu1.aol.com

,

  oceanmo…@aol.comaol.como (Oceanmomma) wrote:

From: luvg…@my-deja.com I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time

before

talking to him about this again. Did he make a promise to you to stop looking at porn?  Or did you

decide that

he should stop without his agreement?  Does he think that he has a

problem ?

Or do you unilaterally think that he has a problem?  The answers make

a

difference as to what realistic expectations are in this case.

He has promised to cut it down.  He has promised to try to have sex more.  Neither last long, if they happen at all.  The fact that this comes up OVER and OVER indicates a problem.  I have tried to compromise on the favor of his side, but I feel he does not hold up his end of the bargain.  I asked him "could you give it up if you HAD to?"  his answer was "I don’t know"  I think that indicates a problem.

I lose love for you everytime I experience this, and I am seething

with

resentment. Are you losing love or are you losing respect?  What is your

resentment about?

A broken promise or feeling left out?

My resentment is being a beautiful, vital woman married to a beautiful vital man who masterbates to pictures of naked women on the internet more often than he has sex with me.  I am losing love and respect.  I don’t care about being "left out" of certain aspects of his life, he does lots of things that have nothing to do with me, but they are not sexual.  I am losing love probably as a defense mechanism because I am losing my optimism about whether or not he will help fix this and it will help me leave if I have to.

 If you are not ABLE to stop, then seek help.  I will *help* you find help if you want.  Does he think that he should stop?

I am sure he does not.  But I know that if I had a behavior that hurt him as much as this hurts me I would certainly stop.  I am not against him masterbating, but I refuse to stay married to someone who does this and makes lame excuses about why we "don’t have time" for sex.  F$*K that.  At least give me equal time. Does he want help? I doubt it.  If he doesn’t think he has a problem, or we have a problem, what need is there for help? You can no sooner

stop him from  looking at porn than you can force feed him tofu.

I know I can’t stop him, but he can stop himself if he wanted to do it for our relationship.  I don’t think stopping a behavior is comparable to eating a food which you find repulsive.  If I was a smoker and he wanted me to stop, or an alcoholic, or gambling addict, and it was destroying our relationship, I would find the help I needed to stop.  I don’t know if this is a true addiction or not, but I would compare it to one.  I mean, three years ago we didn’t even have a damn computer. You can set

boundaries by which he can choose to abide or not.  If he chooses not

to, the

consequences follow…not threats of concequences, but actually

following

through.  Like REALLY leaving unless he gets help.

I am prepared to leave.  I don’t know how or when but if I have to I will.  I am strong.  I know about not following through with your proposed actions, I have done it before and I know it is ineffective. I refuse to say this if I didn’t mean it to him.  I am beyond just trying to get a reaction out of him.

Do you have children?  If so, there’s a whole other can of worms.  If

not, use

some reliable birth control while you are deciding whether or not you

are

staying.  It would be a pity to bring a child  into this painful

situation that

you are in.

No, no children and we don’t want any.  I know many people may get into that situation, but I am not stupid.  Thanks for your responses – I may have gotten a little defensive, but I am just so pissed off.  Your response is thought provoking and that is productive. Luvgirl Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Luvgirl sweetie, sorry to hear you’re going through this (Look what happens when I miss a few days in the NG!). I think your letter was great but I agree with an earlier poster who said add that extra paragraph explaining exactly why you’re hurting. I really hope things work out. I can’t imagine what I would do. Take care. BG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -luvg…@my-deja.com wrote in message <8rggjn$tb…@nnrp1.deja.com

… L What do you think?  Who here wouldn’t do this for your spouse?  Who wouldn’t turn off the computer, pop the tape out of the VCR or throw the porno mag in the trash faster than you can say teenage slut?  I know I would. Luvgirl – who is going to take a bath, drink some wine, and cry so she can put on a "happy face" when he is home. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Response:

Psalms 135:15-18 15 The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. 16 They have mouths, but they do not speak; eyes they have, but they do not see; 17 They have ears, but they do not hear; nor is there any breath in their mouths. 18 Those who make them are like them; so is everyone who trusts in them. (NKJ) Ps 115:2-8 2 Why do the nations say, "Where is their God?" 3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. 4 But their idols are silver and gold, made by the hands of men. 5 They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see; 6 they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell; 7 they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats. 8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them. (NIV) Modern-day equivalent: PORN The porn addict is as stupid as the idolater mentioned here in Psalms (as stupid as I USED to be). Consider: She has big, luscious breasts, until you try to touch them.  They are flat and hard (computer/video) or flat and crinkly  (print). She has soft arms, but they won’t wrap around you, they won’t handle you like youlike to be handled. She has a furry, wet bush, but hard and dry or crinkly and dry to the touch. She has lips, but they are hard and dry or crinkly and dry and funny tasting. Her lips promise to kiss you, but she can’t find your pleasure points. She promises pleasure, but it is only a pipe dream. You don’t believe me?  Try it yourself!  Give that picture a hug.  Does she hug back?  Give it a kiss.  Does she kiss back?  Give it a fee.  Does it feel good?  Porn is an empty promise. It is pure stupidity for a married man to fall into this foolish, brain-dead trap.  Your wife has arms to wrap around you and give you rub-downs.  She has soft lips to kiss you with.  She has soft breasts for you to cuddle up to.  She has a warm, wet spot just made for you to find pleasure in.  HER body will keep you warm at night.  She is YOURS to find sensual pleasure in and you are HERS to delight in. Prov 5:15-23 15 Drink water from your own cistern, and running water from your own well. 16 Should your fountains be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? 17 Let them be only your own, and not for strangers with you. 18 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of your youth. 19 As a loving deer and a graceful doe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times; and always be enraptured with her love. 20 For why should you, my son, be enraptured by an immoral woman, and be embraced in the arms of a seductress? 21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and He ponders all his paths. 22 His own iniquities entrap the wicked man, and he is caught in the cords of his sin. 23 He shall die for lack of instruction, and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray. (NKJ)

Response:

From: luvg…@my-deja.com I am writing this because I promised myself I will give it time before talking to him about this again.

Did he make a promise to you to stop looking at porn?  Or did you decide that he should stop without his agreement?  Does he think that he has a problem ? Or do you unilaterally think that he has a problem?  The answers make a difference as to what realistic expectations are in this case.

I lose love for you everytime I experience this, and I am seething with resentment.

Are you losing love or are you losing respect?  What is your resentment about? A broken promise or feeling left out?

 If you are not ABLE to stop, then seek help.  I will *help* you find help if you want.

 Does he think that he should stop?  Does he want help?   You can no sooner stop him from  looking at porn than you can force feed him tofu.  You can set boundaries by which he can choose to abide or not.  If he chooses not to, the consequences follow…not threats of concequences, but actually following through.  Like REALLY leaving unless he gets help. Do you have children?  If so, there’s a whole other can of worms.  If not, use some reliable birth control while you are deciding whether or not you are staying.  It would be a pity to bring a child  into this painful situation that you are in.

Response:

Question:

This is really an embarrassing question–I have too many to ever finish and I keep adding to it!  Over 200 at last count!  In my will I will have to specify how to divide all of these up–my family would probably just throw them away!    LOL

Response:

This is really an embarrassing question–I have too many to ever finish and I keep adding to it!  Over 200 at last count!  In my will I will have to specify how to divide all of these up–my family would probably just throw them away!  LOL

Now, this is a very personal question to ask!  8-)  Most of us are willing to discuss almost anything except the depths of our depravity — er, stash boxes.  I have to plead the Fifth Amendment here [refuse to answer on the grounds that I might incriminate myself].  Since I’ve been reading r.c.t.n., I have learned that I am a collector of charts, fabrics and fibers; this makes me feel much better about the fact that I would have to live 200 more years to finish everything I have — IF I never bought another chart/fabric/fiber!  As if… And there’s already a note with my will, with the names and phone numbers of the people who get to plunder my stash after I pass over.  I do, however, plan to take my current WIP(s) with me! Nina, eager to see how everyone else answers this… WIPs: Random Thoughts, Drawn Thread; Provence Sampler, MLI; The Real Noah’s Ark, Bestitched; A Cat with Heart (glasses/cell phone case [purse project]) UFOs: too many to list… <sigh — Professional proofreading doesn’t cost; it pays!

Response:

I’m a stitcher and a collector.  I justify my stash in this manner so I don’t feel guilty <VBG. At last count, I have betwen 600-700 charts/booklets, maybe 50-100 hardback cross stitch books, over 50 kits and more than a triple set of DMC plus many, many other specialty threads, tools, needles, fabric, etc. I am prepared for anything !!!!  My big problem is that cross stitch is only one of my hobbies and all my hobbies have a similar amount of stash.  Now we are talking storage problems.  Quilting takes up at least as much space if not more.  Then there are books and cds and videos that my husband and I collect.  I need a warehouse !! Moni – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is really an embarrassing question–I have too many to ever finish and I keep adding to it!  Over 200 at last count!  In my will I will have to specify how to divide all of these up–my family would probably just throw them away!   LOL

Response:

Oh my. I would be less mortified if you asked me my age or weight;) Let’s see…. Kits? I only have 15 of those. 6 from CATS Class projects, 4 teeny-tiny Bagpipes/Bagpiper kits I bought at the merchant Mall there and 5 I picked up at a 75% off sale at the chain craft store. (Hey! The chart alone was $5. I got the chart AND a bunch of threads and fabric I wouldn’t be caught DEAD stitching on for $7.50. This seemed to be too good to pass up;) Charts? Ugh…. 9- 3" binders of charts. Two of those binders contain nothing but Antique/Antique-inspired or reproduction Samplers. Two contain leaflets of small themed motifs– Approx. 25-60 charts in each. I have 3 6-foot long and 3 5-foot long bookshelves FILLED with books of charts and patterns. (Mostly embroidery and quilting. A handful of knitting and crochet.) I also have 7 file boxes of back issues of stitching magzines, all with charts in them. Oh and then there’s the 1.3 Gigabytes of free download charts on my computer and the 2 megs of charts I’ve created myself on charting software. And the charts that came free WITH the software. And the scraps of graph paper with my hand-drawn charts of the past 15 years. Charts, you ask? Well, I have a FEW;) And I plan on living long enough to stitch them ALL! NYAH! Before you buy.

Response:

Charts? Ugh…. 9- 3" binders of charts. Two of those binders contain nothing but Antique/Antique-inspired or reproduction Samplers. Two contain leaflets of small themed motifs– Approx. 25-60 charts in each. I have 3 6-foot long and 3 5-foot long bookshelves FILLED with books of charts and patterns. (Mostly embroidery and quilting. A handful of knitting and crochet.) I also have 7 file boxes of back issues of stitching magzines, all with charts in them. Oh and then there’s the 1.3 Gigabytes of free download charts on my computer and the 2 megs of charts I’ve created myself on charting software. And the charts that came free WITH the software. And the scraps of graph paper with my hand-drawn charts of the past 15 years.

Well, jeez, and my DH complained when I took over ONE shelf on a smallish bookcase for my charts… If I ever indulge like that, I think he’d disown me….<j/k The thing is, I’m only 22, and I’m still going…just barely started, really. But, I have to do it slowly so he doesn’t go into shock! <giggle

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I just checked our inventory and it showed 2104 patterns/kits.  This does not include about a dozen or so that I haven’t entered into the inventory list…and it’s going to get bigger very soon.  My wife and I are going to the CATS shopping mart on Sunday and then she is going to HOCS in DesMoines the first part of September.  It is absolutely impossible for us to go anywhere near Cross Stitch patterns, kits, supplies, or whatever without buying something — it has never happened and probably never will.  The worst (or maybe it was best) time was when I stopped in a LNS to get 1 skein of floss and the cash register totaled $90 by the time I was finished.  And the Europeans think their floss is expensive!!! <VBG Michael F. Parenteau

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This is really an embarrassing question–I have too many to ever finish and I keep adding to it!  Over 200 at last count!  In my will I will have to specify how to divide all of these up–my family would probably just throw them away! LOL

Response:

Our stash inventory list is is to 890.  That includes kits and charts. Mostly charts.  Then we have a rubbermaid tub or two of material.  Two complete sets of dmc and about half the mill hill beads and lots of different other fibers.  And it grows everyday!!  We should have enough to keep us going for a few lifetimes. Babs wip Autumn Queen (mirabilia) <a href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1079074"</a Before you buy.

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Years ago, during a divorce, I decided to get rid of most of my stuff that was not finished – my former husband hated my WIP pile.  I kept and added to the needlepoint group – six at most!  I kept one cross stich, but picked it up again and in a few months I have gained seven projects in process.  I also added stencilling my house, making jewlery, painting and drawing. And now – oh no – I have started to order crafts on-line and am playing around with handmade papers!  I am busy, happy and constantly creative. Of course, now my boyfriend comments about all ny crafts – but he knows better than to say too much!. Before you buy.

Response:

Do you really want us to answer this one?

Question:

lipstick: Loki – who still hasn’t gotten her Richter’s catalog yet and *that* will do her in if nothing else does

<snip Me too. Dangerous every year. (And I’m local) Shirley

Response:

I think I’m doomed this year… Loki – who still hasn’t gotten her Richter’s catalog yet and *that* will do her in if nothing else does

Loki- I found them on the web at http://www.richters.com/ and a lot of other good garden related sites through http://members.xoom.com/tracelogic//garden.html I haven’t seen these addresses posted before.  May the snow-bound and cabin-feverish enjoy them! Pat G

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Well, I think, the rosemary bushes are dead, I’m sure

Where are you? And what age/size the rosemary? I’m zone 7-8 (SE Virginia) and have a rosemary that’s survived blizzards, ice storms and drought for 20 years. Agree that the catalogues look awfully good at this time of year.

Response:

No snow here, but the Nichol’s order is already up to $$$$$ and we only have the herbs and lettuce ordered.  Is there a seed addicts anonymous group? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what else is there to do when you’re snowed in and the garden is a foot and half underneath the stuff?  That’s right!  The catalogs are sitting right there, covers colorful and slick with beautiful annuals, perennials, vegetables and herbs.  Innocent enough, until you pick one up, and start leafing through the pages… Well, I think, the rosemary bushes are dead, I’m sure (we don’t usually get this kind of nasty weather), so I could replace them with….fill in the blank, you know what I’m talking about. The wind has blown the lattice off the darn arbor.  Well, I had been looking at that cedar one on page 34…only 199 dollars… Hey, if the foxglove surrenders to the muck that’s sure to come after all this stuff thaws, I could get those 7 foot lillies!  They’re only…huh?  HOW much a bulb???? Sigh….I wish my paycheck matched my imagination. It’s so easy to shop those catalogs when there’s a foot and a half of snow on the ground, and Spring is SO close….Either way, my mailorder list has grown quite extensively these past few days.  It’s the rite of passage from winter to spring. So hang in there, fellow gardeners.  Spring has to come.  Eventually. DeDe

Response:

I requested a Richters catalog online in Sept (www.richters.com), it came last week, and I’m all set with … lets see, according to my day-planner, $64 worth of plants (18 total)  and $23 of seeds (half dozen packets)   which is $87 canadian minus 30% US…..a meager $61  plus shipping.  time to re-calculate.  ugh.

I have gotten their catalog before and didn’t bother to request one this year but I gave up after reading this and requested one online today. Hopefuly it will arrive shortly. At first I was circling *any* perennial I liked without reading thoroughly.  Then I come up to the Bay Laurel labeled "perennial" and I start circling it and I say, "whoa, hold the phone!"….and realized it’s a zone 8-10 perennial  (I am planting for zone 6/5).  So my advice is watch the fine print before filling out the order form, and make a separate list first, instead of penciling and re-penciling the main order form.

Hehe.  Herbs are my speciality.  Bay Laurel can be grown in your zone (I did it for several years) but you need to keep it in a pot and bring it in during the winter.  It’ll keep it’s leaves all winter but it is extremely slow growing and will take forever to reach a decent size to actually use the leaves for cooking.  Still, it’s a beautiful plant and I’m getting a new one this year.  (drought last year killed mine when I was gone on business). I also always have a list, things I want that I don’t have and then in spring I have to add those that didn’t make it through the winter this year.  Always something different gives out on me.  <sigh The ray of light is that many of the plants are perennial herbs,  and Ive been planning this for over a year.

Herb gardens are a delight.  I grow them for their beauty, but also for cooking and as medicine.  They are the great joy of my garden.  No more patches of exposed compost this year!   NOW, on to the Johnny’s catalog for the veggies (www.johnnyseeds.com) ;P

The veggie seeds I’ve already got.  I tend to use very few per year and a packet will last me 3 or so years.  <smile Loki

Response:

So what else is there to do when you’re snowed in and the garden is a foot and half underneath the stuff?  That’s right!  The catalogs are sitting right there, covers colorful and slick with beautiful annuals, perennials, vegetables and herbs.  Innocent enough, until you pick one up, and start leafing through the pages… Well, I think, the rosemary bushes are dead, I’m sure (we don’t usually get this kind of nasty weather), so I could replace them with….fill in the blank, you know what I’m talking about. The wind has blown the lattice off the darn arbor.  Well, I had been looking at that cedar one on page 34…only 199 dollars… Hey, if the foxglove surrenders to the muck that’s sure to come after all this stuff thaws, I could get those 7 foot lillies!  They’re only…huh?  HOW much a bulb???? Sigh….I wish my paycheck matched my imagination. It’s so easy to shop those catalogs when there’s a foot and a half of snow on the ground, and Spring is SO close….Either way, my mailorder list has grown quite extensively these past few days.  It’s the rite of passage from winter to spring. So hang in there, fellow gardeners.  Spring has to come.  Eventually. DeDe

Response:

Boy do I know what you mean.  I’ve got a bunch of nice catalogs and a big snowstorm today. What is it they say about not shopping in the grocery store when you’re hungry? -Ewan (MA Zone 5, 8" snow today)

Response:

I do hope that when I get home there isn’t any snow or I’m dead meat. <sigh I was traveling on business this week and in the airport I innocently bought what I thought was a gardening magazine but it turned out to be a *few* gardening articles with what amounts to a catalog included.  Oh dear. It’s called "Garden Shed". They have the neatest stuff in there!!!!  I found a wonderful concrete "fairy of lost items" that I *must* have and some "fossil stepping stones" that my granddaughter *must* have and these really, really cute concrete hedgehogs that I really want and… Now that I’ve blown my garden budget on stuff I’ve got to figure out where to get the money for the plants!  <sigh I think I’m doomed this year… Loki – who still hasn’t gotten her Richter’s catalog yet and *that* will do her in if nothing else does – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what else is there to do when you’re snowed in and the garden is a foot and half underneath the stuff?  That’s right!  The catalogs are sitting right there, covers colorful and slick with beautiful annuals, perennials, vegetables and herbs.  Innocent enough, until you pick one up, and start leafing through the pages… Well, I think, the rosemary bushes are dead, I’m sure (we don’t usually get this kind of nasty weather), so I could replace them with….fill in the blank, you know what I’m talking about. The wind has blown the lattice off the darn arbor.  Well, I had been looking at that cedar one on page 34…only 199 dollars… Hey, if the foxglove surrenders to the muck that’s sure to come after all this stuff thaws, I could get those 7 foot lillies!  They’re only…huh?  HOW much a bulb???? Sigh….I wish my paycheck matched my imagination. It’s so easy to shop those catalogs when there’s a foot and a half of snow on the ground, and Spring is SO close….Either way, my mailorder list has grown quite extensively these past few days.  It’s the rite of passage from winter to spring. So hang in there, fellow gardeners.  Spring has to come.  Eventually. DeDe

Response:

Loki – who still hasn’t gotten her Richter’s catalog yet and *that* will do her in if nothing else does

I requested a Richters catalog online in Sept (www.richters.com), it came last week, and I’m all set with … lets see, according to my day-planner, $64 worth of plants (18 total)  and $23 of seeds (half dozen packets)   which is $87 canadian minus 30% US…..a meager $61  plus shipping.  time to re-calculate.  ugh. At first I was circling *any* perennial I liked without reading thoroughly.  Then I come up to the Bay Laurel labeled "perennial" and I start circling it and I say, "whoa, hold the phone!"….and realized it’s a zone 8-10 perennial  (I am planting for zone 6/5).  So my advice is watch the fine print before filling out the order form, and make a separate list first, instead of penciling and re-penciling the main order form. The ray of light is that many of the plants are perennial herbs,  and Ive been planning this for over a year.  No more patches of exposed compost this year!   NOW, on to the Johnny’s catalog for the veggies (www.johnnyseeds.com) ;P Dan

Response:

that way when my brain cells cleared and I saw how much I had "ordered"

I put them all in a box. I read them for months & then when the time comes for ordering, I check all of them out.          For example, Niche gardens has some beautiful asters. But at $7 a pop, that is a bit much. Dutch Garden has a special, 4 plants for a lower price. I have also finally realized just how expensive Brecks is……despite the fact that will bill me rather than breaking out the cc.              Starks & Raintree are running neck & neck (or is that stem & stem!) Starks means less travelling during shipping, but Raintree is pretty unbelievable!              Plus there is Seeds of Change for my cool weather               Love Caryn           "Come into my garden, my flowers want to meet you!"

Response:

you know what I used to do?  If the catalog was one I was seriously considering, I photo copied the order blank and used the copy as a "dummy" order blank, that way when my brain cells cleared and I saw how much I had "ordered" I could go thru it a bit clearer headed (yeah, right) mark thru the stuff I wanted but couldn’t afford, and fill out the REAL form!  yeah, lots of trouble, but after trying to use lined paper and having them fall on the floor and get lost, this was a bit better.  And the copies were just 15c at the post office.  :)   madgardener not even picking up the new Burpee catalog that came today……. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what else is there to do when you’re snowed in and the garden is a foot and half underneath the stuff?  That’s right!  The catalogs are sitting right there, covers colorful and slick with beautiful annuals, perennials, vegetables and herbs.  Innocent enough, until you pick one up, and start leafing through the pages… Well, I think, the rosemary bushes are dead, I’m sure (we don’t usually get this kind of nasty weather), so I could replace them with….fill in the blank, you know what I’m talking about. The wind has blown the lattice off the darn arbor.  Well, I had been looking at that cedar one on page 34…only 199 dollars… Hey, if the foxglove surrenders to the muck that’s sure to come after all this stuff thaws, I could get those 7 foot lillies!  They’re only…huh?  HOW much a bulb???? Sigh….I wish my paycheck matched my imagination. It’s so easy to shop those catalogs when there’s a foot and a half of snow on the ground, and Spring is SO close….Either way, my mailorder list has grown quite extensively these past few days.  It’s the rite of passage from winter to spring. So hang in there, fellow gardeners.  Spring has to come.  Eventually. DeDe

Response:

Question:

depends how you look at it.  Sugar can be considered a drug since this was not introduced to our diets until recently.  Aspartamine could be considered a drug….If it acts like a drug on someone, then maybe they should avoid it. Sarahrein Justice – When you get what you deserve Mercy – When you don’t get what you deserve Grace – When you get what you don’t deserve "Hunger hurts but starving works when it costs

Response:

Elena said: I have gone from a size 16 to a size 2, all while eating a LOT of food (protein, vegetables, and whole grains).

That’s great!  {i think} Sounds like you attempted to lose weight the healthy way. But out of extreme curiosity, how long did it take you to drop 14 sizes? a nosey and curious -julie

Response:

All I know is that when I abstain from sugar, flour, wheat and refined carbohydrates I experience an initial period of physical withdrawal and then I become and remain craving free.  Smells like chemical dependency to me. In abstinence I don’t starve.  I actually eat 3 large meals plus 1 smaller meal per day.  There is great variety in my abstinent food plan.  The difference is that I only eat food that is nourishing to my body (no junk).  The constant hunger is gone.  I have gone from a size 16 to a size 2, all while eating a LOT of food (protein, vegetables, and whole grains). Just my experience.  Take what you like and leave the rest. Love and HUGS, Elena * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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In FAA I have learned that food addiction is a chemical dependency.

Um, this is a fallacy.   While you may experience cravings for certain foods, it is not the same as a chemical dependency promoted by the use of drugs or alcohol. –Connie — "Starving the flesh wastes the spirit." –Kandis Elliot

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I’ve been reading all of the posts on eating disorders and wanted to share about my own struggle with an eating disorder.  You name it, I’ve been there: binging, starving, purging, compulsive exercise, dieting, etc. After many years of struggle, I have finally started to experience recovery in a 12-step program called Food Addicts Anonymous (FAA).  In FAA I have learned that food addiction is a chemical dependency.  I have learned that when I eat certain substances, I experience the phenomenon of craving, just as an alcoholic who takes the first drink.  Just like alcoholism and drug addiction, food addiction is a physical biochemical disease.  In FAA we use the same program of recovery that alcoholics and drug addicts use in AA and NA.  I have been free for almost one year from binging, have been craving-free for that time, and am wearing a normal size for the first time in my life. The website for FAA can be found at: http://www.erols.com/randrc/faa/index.htm A really good book on the subject of food addiction is "Food Addiction: the Body Knows" by Kay Sheppard. Lots of love, Elena

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