Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -SL wrote:

Hi, Some responses to your message, see* Granny —– Original Message —– From: "Neal Feldman" <silverst…@home.net Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.support.foster-parents,alt.parent i ng.spanking,misc.kids,misc.legal Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Objectivity SL wrote: Hi folks, I’ve been following your newsgroup for some time.  I, too, believe that CPS needs to be and MUST be reformed, if not abolished. Yup!  And since it clearly will never be able to be significantly and substantively reformed legitimately and credibly (see the experience in Oregon circa 1991-present) absolute elimination is called for. HOWEVER, I do not believe in some of your statistics and narrow-mindedness. You can choose to disbelieve the truth and claim accuracy as narrowmindedness all you like.  Your claims, however, do not make it so. I do believe that extreme circumstances take extreme measures to be corrected. Extreme as defined as violating the civil, constitutional, human, due process and parental rights of the citizenry?  Extreme as defined as kidnapping children from innocent parents and families?  THAT kind of extreme, huh? *Yes, I agree.  The impoundment of children as if they were less than potted plants is bizarre and extreme.

Glad you agree.

I do know that most of the children removed from parents are in danger of abuse if not neglected and abused directly. Where do you get this from, considering all the credible and legitimate facts and evidence clearly and conclusively quite the opposite… that only 5-10% or so of removals are in fact legitimately warranted… which is to say that 90-95% or more ARE NOT. *Since there are no TRUE and accurate facts available from the agencies, we will not be able to have access to meaningful statistics.

Sorry but the evidence and facts and data are available, and from Gestapo CPS itself as well as the CDC, HHS and a myriad other sources, as well as enough first hand experience by many individuals related which are eerily consistent to adjust the selfserving figures of Gestapo CPS towards the truth. (Gestapo CPS admits that 65-70% are false, however anyone who has been involved in the system knows that they ‘find as founded’ a large number of cases where no objective and sane person with any common sense at all would have been able to… they even TPR when there has been absolutely no real and substantive evidence of any ACTUAL child abuse or criminal child neglect.  Most of their ‘cases’ are based on nothing but ‘risks’ as determined by rabidly anti-parent, anti-male and anti-family paranoid undertrained and overobsessed bureaucrats on a rampaging agenda kick and in search of personal power trips and/or additional funding streams. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Since when is 5-10% ‘most’, hmmmmm? I do know that many children are removed during what I know to be unconstitutional grounds and that the secrecy afforded to the caseworkers is abhorrent and illegal on the merits of the issues. Absolutely! I know this: One cannot "reunite" a child with a drug addict who fails and refuses to stop the abusive chemicals and lifestyle.  One who fails to complete all rehabilitation efforts paid for by the state and provided by the agencies and courts. No one is saying one should. I guess, though, you would have to define ‘drug addict’ and ‘abusive chemicals and lifestyle’.  I have seen children kidnapped because the parent smoked a joint once or twice a week, was never abusive to the child, paid the bills, had a nice home, etc.  Do you consider alcohol a drug? Would someone who regularly has a glass of wine with dinner or a beer during a football game be considered a ‘drug addict’ under these definitions? Do you consider tobacco a drug?  Would any and all smokers be considered ‘drug addicts’ under your definitions?  Do you consider caffeine a drug?  Would all drinkers of coffee, tea and Mountain Dew be considered ‘drug addicts’ under your definitions?  Would any of these substances be considered ‘abusive’ by you? If so, why? If not, why not? *No, and I agree with you.

Thank you.

Those of us who have been exposed to an addict’s "lifestyle" know what is meant by this.  It’s no place that even the addict really wants to be.  I mean destructive addictions to chemicals that kill your brain and destroy your spirit like crystal methamphetamine addiction can do.  Living in a filthy car and stealing for your next high.  Forgetting that you have a child in your care and not feeding her.

Clearly in those cases, but those cases are in all honesty and insignificant minority of the cases of action by Gestapo CPS, and such cases do not excuse the vast majority of actions by Gestapo CPS which are nothing less than crimes against humanity.

I share your beliefs regarding others claiming "abuse" for those who choose to smoke and drink and remain capable and responsible for caring for their children.

How about those who use OTHER drugs yet remain capable and responsible for caring for their children?  Alcohol and tobacco are drugs just like any other, and have ruined lives, killed,etc just like any other.  Why do you elevate them to some honored status above other drugs, especially since they contribute to more harm and death in society than all other drugs COMBINED? (actually I think EITHER of them SEPARATELY do so!)

One cannot return a child to it’s mother who is mentally ill and refuses any and all treatment for the problems.  A mother who threatens suicide and murder for the baby. In the latter case I would agree with you.  Clearly so.  However in your first statement I have seen people defined in court as ‘mentally ill’ because they considered Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry as offensive and harmful to their children, them and their family and were ‘uncooperative’ with their own victimization.  Would this fall into the category of ‘mentally ill’ under your definitions?  What WOULD the parameters of such be, in fact? Please be very specific if you would, ok? *I mean fully diagnosed with mental illness that is a real condition.

Many ‘conditions’ listed in DSM-IV are fully diagnosed and actual real conditions.  One of the most common is, for example, depression.  So you are then claiming that any parent who has ever been diagnosted with even mild depression should have their children kidnapped from them because this somehow ‘proves them unfit as parents’?  Are you serious?

*I understand that CPS makes it’s own diagnosis of illness after they torture family members and children etc.

Yes they do.  They put people under stress then fault them for being under stress.  They do things which would anger a Saint and then fault the parents for being angry and say that the parents are a ‘risk’ to the children because of this and should go to ‘anger management classes’.  Heck, the fact that most parents to date have yet to rip apart Gestapo CPS socialwreckers with their bare hands is a testament to the fact they DO NOT NEED anger management classes, they are managing their anger quite admirably. Try stepping between a mother grizzly bear and her cub and see how long you last.

It’s a very difficult problem.  A parent who is addicted to crystal methamphetamine, for instance, one who injects an unborn with the substances prior to delivery and by proximity thereafter is guilty of a crime of abuse and certainly not able to care for a child. Are you saying she took a long needle and injected the fetus through the uterine wall? *Injected into the unborn’s system.

That is not injected… that is presented for absorption. Different.  Less inflammatory.

The baby consumed all of the chemicals and has been damaged for life.  I cared for this baby and anyone who has cared for a substance exposed infant knows what it is like.  A 24/7 job for at least two responsible loving adults.  It is awful what is being done to little humans due to the substance exposure by their mommy dearests.

I do not condone such activities while pregnant, and hold that if brought to term and live birth a mother should be held responsible for her actions during pregnancy.  This would also include from tobacco and alcohol, damage caused by her continuing to job 20 miles a day when she knew she was pregnant, etc.  But again if she has cleaned up and is responsible there is no reason for preventing reunification.  And what about cases where the drugs were doctor prescribed and supervised and where there was no harm shown to the child? (Nehmo’s case). Where is the justification?

CPS did nothing for this child but cause her more grief and damage.

Not surprising… generally speaking in the vast majority of cases that is typical.

What the heck do you mean ‘inject by proximity’?  What one injects into one’s body is irrelevant to whether or not they are able to care for a child. What would matter would be the effects.  If they are a stone addict and their ACTIONS are extremely neglectful or abusive, then yes, I would agree with you.  If their ACTIONS are in fact NOT neglectful or abusive (granted this would be rare with a severe meth addict) then where is any legitimacy to your beef? *Again, I am speaking of a chronic meth addict who is also an alcoholic and mentally ill.

Again you will need to define ‘mentally ill’ especially as separate from the other two categories you mention which you have described in detail in the first case and which is pretty much understood generally in the second.  The mentally ill label however is not specific enough since there is likely not a single human on the planet who has at one time or another not been diagnosable with SOMETHING out of DSM-IV… which is why the … read more »

Response:

SL wrote:

Hi folks, I’ve been following your newsgroup for some time.  I, too, believe that CPS needs to be and MUST be reformed, if not abolished.

Yup!  And since it clearly will never be able to be significantly and substantively reformed legitimately and credibly (see the experience in Oregon circa 1991-present) absolute elimination is called for.

HOWEVER, I do not believe in some of your statistics and narrow-mindedness.

You can choose to disbelieve the truth and claim accuracy as narrowmindedness all you like.  Your claims, however, do not make it so.

I do believe that extreme circumstances take extreme measures to be corrected.

Extreme as defined as violating the civil, constitutional, human, due process and parental rights of the citizenry?  Extreme as defined as kidnapping children from innocent parents and families?  THAT kind of extreme, huh?

I do know that most of the children removed from parents are in danger of abuse if not neglected and abused directly.

Where do you get this from, considering all the credible and legitimate facts and evidence clearly and conclusively quite the opposite… that only 5-10% or so of removals are in fact legitimately warranted… which is to say that 90-95% or more ARE NOT. Since when is 5-10% ‘most’, hmmmmm?

I do know that many children are removed during what I know to be unconstitutional grounds and that the secrecy afforded to the caseworkers is abhorrent and illegal on the merits of the issues.

Absolutely!

I know this: One cannot "reunite" a child with a drug addict who fails and refuses to stop the abusive chemicals and lifestyle.  One who fails to complete all rehabilitation efforts paid for by the state and provided by the agencies and courts.

No one is saying one should. I guess, though, you would have to define ‘drug addict’ and ‘abusive chemicals and lifestyle’.  I have seen children kidnapped because the parent smoked a joint once or twice a week, was never abusive to the child, paid the bills, had a nice home, etc.  Do you consider alcohol a drug? Would someone who regularly has a glass of wine with dinner or a beer during a football game be considered a ‘drug addict’ under these definitions? Do you consider tobacco a drug?  Would any and all smokers be considered ‘drug addicts’ under your definitions?  Do you consider caffeine a drug?  Would all drinkers of coffee, tea and Mountain Dew be considered ‘drug addicts’ under your definitions?  Would any of these substances be considered ‘abusive’ by you?  If so, why? If not, why not?

One cannot return a child to it’s mother who is mentally ill and refuses any and all treatment for the problems.  A mother who threatens suicide and murder for the baby.

In the latter case I would agree with you.  Clearly so.  However in your first statement I have seen people defined in court as ‘mentally ill’ because they considered Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry as offensive and harmful to their children, them and their family and were ‘uncooperative’ with their own victimization.  Would this fall into the category of ‘mentally ill’ under your definitions?  What WOULD the parameters of such be, in fact? Please be very specific if you would, ok?

It’s a very difficult problem.  A parent who is addicted to crystal methamphetamine, for instance, one who injects an unborn with the substances prior to delivery and by proximity thereafter is guilty of a crime of abuse and certainly not able to care for a child.

Are you saying she took a long needle and injected the fetus through the uterine wall? What the heck do you mean ‘inject by proximity’?  What one injects into one’s body is irrelevant to whether or not they are able to care for a child.  What would matter would be the effects.  If they are a stone addict and their ACTIONS are extremely neglectful or abusive, then yes, I would agree with you.  If their ACTIONS are in fact NOT neglectful or abusive (granted this would be rare with a severe meth addict) then where is any legitimacy to your beef?

I am a certified "child boarding home" and foster parent.  Not for any other reason than that I am trying to spring my granddaughters from foster care where they have languished and one has been sexually assaulted allegedly)  - for the past four and a half years.

And you hope this will do what?

I hesitate to speak out against agencies for child "protection" because of their very real ability to retaliate.  And retaliate, they do.

Absolutely!

Freely and without subjecting themselves to any punitive measures.

Absolutely!  Which only promotes such heinous and offensive abuses.  Sometimes it seems as if it is not only condoned but in fact actively ENCOURAGED … maybe as a policy to pacify the populace with fear.

They enjoy their "immunity" and secrecy.

Yes they do, and such should be abolished very soon… their abuses of it have made more than enough evidence to justify such removal.  And in all honesty once they no longer have their unconstitutional immunity to hide behind one would think their abuses would at least slow significantly… through attrition of those who do not stop being sued and criminally convicted for their wrongdoing, and through the more intelligent and circumspect of them realizing their crimes will no longer be tolerated.

There are currently over four million grandchildren in the care and custody of their grandparents and the majority of this is due to the adult children, the parents of these little ones, being substances abusers and prison inmates.

Well, can’t help much on the prison inmates except that the largest majority of those are victims of the illconceived, abysmally failed and heinously draconian War on Some Drugs.  Do away with that and grant amnesty to its victims and a great deal of that particular problem will vanish overnight.

Many of us caregiving relatives agree with many of your positions and opinions of what needs be changed with our CPS "system".

As well you should, because the facts and evidence clearly and conclusively prove me to be accurate and right.

I sure would appreciate it if you folks that are narrow about some aspects of this issue would include the facts of some dire matters regarding little ones being brought into this world addicted and abused prior to birth and thereafter who NEED help and care.  Who are dying at the hands of their parents.

Again neither I nor most of the regular opponents in the ngs to Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry deny that real and actual child abuse and criminal child neglect occur.  What we disagree with is the ludicrously expanded definitions of ‘child abuse’ and ‘child neglect’ far beyond any realm of reason or sanity or common sense.  What we disagree with is the claim that Gestapo CPS is ‘needed’ when in fact it is not and in fact does far more harm than it ever has done good, in an order of magnitude or more. What we disagree with is the systematic violations of the civil, constitutional, human, due process and parental rights of the citizenry in the pursuit of a rabidly anti-parent, anti-male, anti-family (and ultimately anti-child) extremist leftist agenda.  What we disagree with is the violators being protected from legitimate recourse against them for their wrongdoing (civil and criminal action) by unconstitutional immunities in violation of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution.  What we disagree with is the unfounded, discredited and disproven propaganda of the fascist apologists and advocates that there is this ‘epidemic’ of child abuse and criminal child neglect when in fact nothing of the sort is legitimately proven.  Expanding the definition of ‘child abuse’ to include calling for your child from your driveway does not in fact make such action actual child abuse.

Please be objective,

I always am.  I am entirely objective and founded on the facts and evidence.  It is the Gestapo CPS apologists who practice manipulation, twisting, misrepresentation, critical thinking flaws, logical fallacies, dishonesty, paranoia, delusion, and emotionalistic, inflammatory, hysterical and hyperbolic propaganda in their arguments, which is why their arguments are rarely, if ever, relevant, legitimate or credible.

it would help if those of us who agree with so much of your problems, including the unjust removal of children from fit parents, could join in your respected efforts.  We care.  I care.     ~Granny

Glad to hear it, and you are more than invited to join in the righteous war against Gestapo CPS and the Child Abuse and Kidnapping Industry.  They declared this war when they declared war on The Family, The Constitution, and all the civil, constitutional, human, due process and parental rights of the citizenry. But while they declared the war, they will not win it, and they are losing it more quickly every year now that the truth is getting out. — ============================================================= Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/ We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!

Response:

Question:

Risperdal has one nasty sideeffect. It decrease libido Boba On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:45:07 -0600, "Dark Cloud" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<dia…@rio.bravo.net

wrote: I just visited my new doctor and described all the symptoms that I have bored many of you with over the last few months and he is trying out the anti-psychotic drug Risperdal!  Therefore I am officially psycho!  But not really.  He diagnosed me as having many symptoms of an anxiety disorder combined with possible manic and obsessive symptoms.  If the Risperdal works out on my next visit he is going to possibly increase the dose and also add Klonipin to the list (I told him about my 5mg Xanax experience in Mexico which caused amnesia and he assured me that the dose of Klonipin shouldn’t have any sedative/amnesia/addictive qualitities). So what do my fellow psychos think?  I really need feedback since I will be taking it for at 3 weeks.  What kind of mental changes might I expect? Dark Cloud

Response:

Spiritus wrote in message <131220000300330787%spiri…@sanctus.org

… Depends on yer relationship w yer doc. Absolutely never ever mention drug/drink use of any kind to SSI (if you ever want to get on it). Their regs force you to go thru treatment for the "dependancy" before you can be considered for disability.

Right, I was always very careful to avoid my schizophrenic friend’s prior drug/alcohol use with the public doctors.  He knew better than to mention it also.

If you think the speed has no bearing on yer present condition, why mention it anyway.

Actually I think it made something worse.  But I have always been a little bit on the flaky side anyway, but going for several years on meth will drive anyone mad.  And I just switced from a 2/3 pot of strong coffee to 2 cups of tea and so far I am doing fine.  Now I’m just waiting for the Risperdal to start altering my mind.

PS, the new class "antipsychotics" are now being prescribed for BiPolar, Obsessive Compulsive, etc… Being prescribed one doesn’t necissisarily make you an "official psycho" but if that’s yer goal, go for it.

I was trying to make a joke!!!  It is still classed as anti-psychotic just like ever-popular Prozac is still an anti-depressant even though it is now used to treat PMS. Dark Cloud

Response:

Morten Nilsen wrote in message …

Risperdal has one nasty sideeffect. It decrease libido Boba

I think it affects everyone differently.  The PDR2000 described a possible side-effect as "priapism" (that is when you get an erection that won’t go away no matter what…in public…and it can actually cause damage).  But some people would love that effect…Viagara from hell. Dark Cloud

Response:

Not only that the doctor should be informed because the meth could effect how well the meds from the doctor work. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -thomas wrote:

x-no-archive: yes Dark Cloud wrote: <snip I should also mention my former methamphetamine addiction and my current caffeine addiction.  <snip  I certainly didn’t mention that part to the doctor, … Hey, the meth can be a big part of why you’re experiencing what you’re experiencing. You really should tell that doctor about it so he knows what he’s dealing with.

Response:

ernestmac13 wrote in message <3A3867EF.F2A27…@home.com

… Not only that the doctor should be informed because the meth could effect how well the meds from the doctor work.

I’ve been off meth for a year and a half and even quit the DXM.  But they all cause symptoms of a psychosis.  The guy isn’t even a great doctor in my opinion, just a regular medical doctor with the degree in psychology who just writes prescriptions.  He didn’t even bother to take my blood pressure or weigh me!  I seriously doubt he knows any more about meth or DXM than anyone else. Dark Cloud

Response:

Why would he weigh you and take your blood pressure, he is treating your mind and not your body isn’t he? If your not satisfied with your doctor could you change doctors? I think the type of relationship you and your therapist or doctor shares is vary important, if there are any walls between the two of you it will how well you both interact.     Have a good day and good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dark Cloud wrote:

ernestmac13 wrote in message <3A3867EF.F2A27…@home.com… Not only that the doctor should be informed because the meth could effect how well the meds from the doctor work. I’ve been off meth for a year and a half and even quit the DXM.  But they all cause symptoms of a psychosis.  The guy isn’t even a great doctor in my opinion, just a regular medical doctor with the degree in psychology who just writes prescriptions.  He didn’t even bother to take my blood pressure or weigh me!  I seriously doubt he knows any more about meth or DXM than anyone else. Dark Cloud

Response:

ernestmac13 wrote in message <3A394C8B.10A30…@home.com

… Why would he weigh you and take your blood pressure, he is treating your mind and not your body isn’t he? If your not satisfied with your doctor could you change doctors? I think the type of relationship you and your therapist or doctor shares is vary important, if there are any walls between the two of you it will how well you both interact.

He is still a medical doctor.  And the PDR does refer to changes in blood pressure and physiological changes from the medication.  He should have at least performed that basic medical service for the $150 he charged me.  And I am not seeing him as a therapist.  I have researched my symptoms and decided on several drugs I wanted and I am going to get them!  By the way, I do live on the Mexican border and could easily obtain them over there. But I wanted some assurance from a real doctor, not a corrupt Mexican one. (No offense intended to Mexicans, but their doctors are very corrupt). Dark Cloud

Response:

Dark Cloud wrote:

I just visited my new doctor and described all the symptoms that I have bored many of you with over the last few months and he is trying out the anti-psychotic drug Risperdal!  Therefore I am officially psycho!  But not really.  He diagnosed me as having many symptoms of an anxiety disorder combined with possible manic and obsessive symptoms.  If the Risperdal works out on my next visit he is going to possibly increase the dose and also add Klonipin to the list (I told him about my 5mg Xanax experience in Mexico which caused amnesia and he assured me that the dose of Klonipin shouldn’t have any sedative/amnesia/addictive qualitities). So what do my fellow psychos think?  I really need feedback since I will be taking it for at 3 weeks.  What kind of mental changes might I expect? Dark Cloud

Great!  You will be relaxed and happy. I think. Hope it works really well for you!! Kathleen

Response:

Frank wrote:

Isn’t the term psycho short for psychopathic not psychotic.  I’d much rather be thought of as psychotic than psychopathic.  When I think of psychopaths I think of serial killers and such.  Although that might be my own misinformation showing.  My wife (the psychologist) tells me that in its truest clinical sense the term psychopath has nothing to do with murderers or serial killers.  If I remember correctly, it simply means someone who does not fit into society and has no conscience (not necessarily a murderer). Frank.

I think a ‘pyschopath’ is someone with a behavioural disorder. But don’t quote me. Apathy.

Response:

I agree with That1Guy.  You will definitely be slowed down.  I actually feel physically better OFF all medication.  But to alleviate the sz symptoms I stay on it. Hopefully your dose wont be too high. —Juniper "That1Guy" <remove.that1…@usa.com

wrote in message

news:hbab3tk3i4ub79rgmvb493drivci9ejulu@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:45:07 -0600, "Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net wrote: I just visited my new doctor and described all the symptoms that I have

bored

many of you with over the last few months and he is trying out the

anti-psychotic

drug Risperdal!  Therefore I am officially psycho!  But not really.  He

diagnosed

me as having many symptoms of an anxiety disorder combined with possible

manic

and obsessive symptoms.  If the Risperdal works out on my next visit he

is going

to possibly increase the dose and also add Klonipin to the list (I told

him about

my 5mg Xanax experience in Mexico which caused amnesia and he assured me

that

the dose of Klonipin shouldn’t have any sedative/amnesia/addictive

qualitities).

So what do my fellow psychos think?  I really need feedback since I will

be

taking it for at 3 weeks.  What kind of mental changes might I expect? Dark Cloud Mentally, U will become slower then be4. Physically, if dosage are high, you will be weaker then be4. It’s all down hill baby! (Dont call yourself a psycho, it’s degrading.)

Response:

Dark Cloud wrote:

thomas wrote in message <3A362163.C2FD6…@yum.com… Hey, the meth can be a big part of why you’re experiencing what you’re experiencing. You really should tell that doctor about it so he knows what he’s dealing with. Absolutely not!!!  I will not confess a crime to my doctor.  I admitted to the coffee and the Xanax over in Mexico but I will not confess to having used drugs in the USA and have it entered in my medical record.  That is why I am asking all of you for input… Dark Cloud

Some of the negative effects of tweaking stick with you for a while. Paranoia is one, but you do make an interesting point. Thing is that a lot of people are past drug users and it’s common knowledge. But yeah, it’s hard to know if there are negative repercussions of things in your medical file, it’s all supposed to be private, but … My point is that the doctor won’t know what he’s treating. If you don’t want to tell him then do a lot of reading and get advice from industry experts on psychological effects of speed, because it’s a whole different ballgame than problems that originate without the drug.

Response:

In article <fsxZ5.315$Q16.4…@newsfeed.slurp.net

, Dark Cloud

<dia…@rio.bravo.net

wrote: thomas wrote in message <3A362163.C2FD6…@yum.com… Hey, the meth can be a big part of why you’re experiencing what you’re experiencing. You really should tell that doctor about it so he knows what he’s dealing with. Absolutely not!!!  I will not confess a crime to my doctor.  I admitted to the coffee and the Xanax over in Mexico but I will not confess to having used drugs in the USA and have it entered in my medical record.  That is why I am asking all of you for input… Dark Cloud

Depends on yer relationship w yer doc. Absolutely never ever mention drug/drink use of any kind to SSI (if you ever want to get on it). Their regs force you to go thru treatment for the "dependancy" before you can be considered for disability. If you think the speed has no bearing on yer present condition, why mention it anyway. PS, the new class "antipsychotics" are now being prescribed for BiPolar, Obsessive Compulsive, etc… Being prescribed one doesn’t necissisarily make you an "official psycho" but if that’s yer goal, go for it. sp

Response:

I’m not trying to tell you what to do, but I would think an experienced doctor with a degree would be better at prescribing the right meds then either of us trying to do it ourselves. I’d be careful with meds from Mexico, some people have said that the quality control down there is a bit poor.     Good luck in what ever you choose to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dark Cloud wrote:

ernestmac13 wrote in message <3A394C8B.10A30…@home.com… Why would he weigh you and take your blood pressure, he is treating your mind and not your body isn’t he? If your not satisfied with your doctor could you change doctors? I think the type of relationship you and your therapist or doctor shares is vary important, if there are any walls between the two of you it will how well you both interact. He is still a medical doctor.  And the PDR does refer to changes in blood pressure and physiological changes from the medication.  He should have at least performed that basic medical service for the $150 he charged me.  And I am not seeing him as a therapist.  I have researched my symptoms and decided on several drugs I wanted and I am going to get them!  By the way, I do live on the Mexican border and could easily obtain them over there. But I wanted some assurance from a real doctor, not a corrupt Mexican one. (No offense intended to Mexicans, but their doctors are very corrupt). Dark Cloud

Response:

"Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net

wrote in message

news:wkc_5.1082$Fo2.1629@newsfeed.slurp.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

ernestmac13 wrote in message <3A394C8B.10A30…@home.com… Why would he weigh you and take your blood pressure, he is treating your

mind and

not your body isn’t he? If your not satisfied with your doctor could you

change

doctors? I think the type of relationship you and your therapist or doctor shares is vary

important, if

there are any walls between the two of you it will how well you both

interact.

He is still a medical doctor.  And the PDR does refer to changes in blood pressure and physiological changes from the medication.  He should have at least performed that basic medical service for the $150 he charged me.

And

I am not seeing him as a therapist.  I have researched my symptoms and decided on several drugs I wanted and I am going to get them!  By the way, I do live on the Mexican border and could easily obtain them over there. But I wanted some assurance from a real doctor, not a corrupt Mexican one. (No offense intended to Mexicans, but their doctors are very corrupt). Dark Cloud

Yank DOCS ARE JUST AS CORRUPT, I guess its just your potical right wing leanings that aduterate your thinking. Limbo

Response:

Limbo wrote in message <3a398…@iridium.webone.com.au

… Yank DOCS ARE JUST AS CORRUPT, I guess its just your potical right wing leanings that aduterate your thinking. Limbo

Get off of our politics already!  At least we don’t live in an Orwellian police state with cameras watching our every move like you brits!  Nor do we pay up to 75% of what we earn in taxes.  And we drive on the right side of the road!  I could flame britain all day, but we should go over to alt.nuke.the.british or alt.nuke.the.usa to debate. But yes, our doctors are just as corrupt but we do have strict regulations to guarantee patient safety.  If you ever read alt.drugs every week a FAQ is posted concerning how to obtain benzos (valium, xanax, etc.).  Just memorize the list of symptoms for a panic attack or anxiety and go to the doctor and describe them and you will get a prescription. I need to mention that I can also get a "prescription" for valium or xanax in mexico for about $40-$60 total with no physical exam at all.  In fact that last "doctor" appeared to be a bit young (about 17). Oh sorry, you are an Australian.  Canadian, Australian…what’s the difference? Dark Cloud

Response:

Juniper wrote in message …

I agree with That1Guy.  You will definitely be slowed down.  I actually feel physically better OFF all medication.  But to alleviate the sz symptoms I stay on it. Hopefully your dose wont be too high. —Juniper

I’m talking about 1mg/day dosage.  And I do need to be slowed down slightly because of the anxiety diagnosis.  But I will be the final judge in whether to continue taking it or not (this is still America where they can’t force pills down your throat like in progressive Europe). I’m sure all your medications do have physical side effects that you dislike. I mentioned "accidentally" ingesting several of my friend’s medications and discovered which one was the problem…the anti-parkinson’s agent.  It certainly was a different experience but who wants legs that feel like rubber? Dark Cloud

Response:

Dont worry about Klonopin. I’ve been on it for years and never really have felt its effects.  It keeps the anxiety pains down a little.  That is about it. —Juniper "Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net

wrote in message

news:VpxZ5.309$Q16.4378@newsfeed.slurp.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Frank wrote in message … Isn’t the term psycho short for psychopathic not psychotic.  I’d much

rather

be thought of as psychotic than psychopathic.  When I think of

psychopaths I

think of serial killers and such.  Although that might be my own misinformation showing.  My wife (the psychologist) tells me that in its truest clinical sense the term psychopath has nothing to do with

murderers

or serial killers.  If I remember correctly, it simply means someone who does not fit into society and has no conscience (not necessarily a murderer). I have no idea.  I was just kidding in my use of the word anyway.  I got no diagnosis of "psychosis" of any sort.  Just the drug to Risperdal is useful for the symptoms of manic/obsessive symptoms.  He is adding

Klonipin

next visit which is classified as an anti-seizure agent yet it does not mean I am an epileptic.  And I am still wary of being on any type of benzo for actual medical use.  My numerous Xanax/Tafil trips were for fun, but having to be under the influence of Xanax all day every day would be unnerving (and very dangerous).  But my doctor assures me that the

Klonipin

is much better and he claims that it will be such a low dose as to leave my coordination/judgement/memory unaffected. Dark Cloud

Response:

"Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net

wrote in message

news:swxZ5.324$Q16.4746@newsfeed.slurp.net…

I’m talking about 1mg/day dosage.  And I do need to be slowed down

slightly

because of the anxiety diagnosis.  But I will be the final judge in

whether

to continue taking it or not (this is still America where they can’t force pills down your throat like in progressive Europe).

I must beg to differ.  I know next to nothing about the situation in Europe. However, many US states are busily passing legislation as we speak (or have already done so) which allow them to do exactly that. Lily

Response:

thomas wrote in message <3A362163.C2FD6…@yum.com

… Hey, the meth can be a big part of why you’re experiencing what you’re experiencing. You really should tell that doctor about it so he knows what he’s dealing with.

Absolutely not!!!  I will not confess a crime to my doctor.  I admitted to the coffee and the Xanax over in Mexico but I will not confess to having used drugs in the USA and have it entered in my medical record.  That is why I am asking all of you for input… Dark Cloud

Response:

Frank wrote in message …

Isn’t the term psycho short for psychopathic not psychotic.  I’d much rather be thought of as psychotic than psychopathic.  When I think of psychopaths I think of serial killers and such.  Although that might be my own misinformation showing.  My wife (the psychologist) tells me that in its truest clinical sense the term psychopath has nothing to do with murderers or serial killers.  If I remember correctly, it simply means someone who does not fit into society and has no conscience (not necessarily a murderer).

I have no idea.  I was just kidding in my use of the word anyway.  I got no diagnosis of "psychosis" of any sort.  Just the drug to Risperdal is useful for the symptoms of manic/obsessive symptoms.  He is adding Klonipin next visit which is classified as an anti-seizure agent yet it does not mean I am an epileptic.  And I am still wary of being on any type of benzo for actual medical use.  My numerous Xanax/Tafil trips were for fun, but having to be under the influence of Xanax all day every day would be unnerving (and very dangerous).  But my doctor assures me that the Klonipin is much better and he claims that it will be such a low dose as to leave my coordination/judgement/memory unaffected. Dark Cloud

Response:

I just visited my new doctor and described all the symptoms that I have bored many of you with over the last few months and he is trying out the anti-psychotic drug Risperdal!  Therefore I am officially psycho!  But not really.  He diagnosed me as having many symptoms of an anxiety disorder combined with possible manic and obsessive symptoms.  If the Risperdal works out on my next visit he is going to possibly increase the dose and also add Klonipin to the list (I told him about my 5mg Xanax experience in Mexico which caused amnesia and he assured me that the dose of Klonipin shouldn’t have any sedative/amnesia/addictive qualitities). So what do my fellow psychos think?  I really need feedback since I will be taking it for at 3 weeks.  What kind of mental changes might I expect? Dark Cloud

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -That1Guy wrote in message …

On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:45:07 -0600, "Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net wrote: I just visited my new doctor and described all the symptoms that I have bored many of you with over the last few months and he is trying out the anti-psychotic drug Risperdal!  Therefore I am officially psycho!  But not really.  He diagnosed me as having many symptoms of an anxiety disorder combined with possible manic and obsessive symptoms.  If the Risperdal works out on my next visit he is going to possibly increase the dose and also add Klonipin to the list (I told him about my 5mg Xanax experience in Mexico which caused amnesia and he assured me that the dose of Klonipin shouldn’t have any sedative/amnesia/addictive qualitities). So what do my fellow psychos think?  I really need feedback since I will be taking it for at 3 weeks.  What kind of mental changes might I expect? Dark Cloud Mentally, U will become slower then be4. Physically, if dosage are high, you will be weaker then be4. It’s all down hill baby! (Dont call yourself a psycho, it’s degrading.)

I WAS KIDDING!  (Or was I?)  Since Risperdal is officially classed as an anti-psychotic therefore I am psychotic and psycho is just slang for the same term.  I did not make this decision lightly.  I have been considering it for the last year and have studied the subject intensely. It will be several days before the Risperdal begins to kick in so I will just tell you now that I worship Charles Manson and consider him to be the reincarnation of Jesus himself and also worship Marilyn Manson and consider him to be the Antichrist Superstar, and I still think I am one of God’s chosen Antichrists.  I am also a Satanist of the Anton LaVey/Church of Satan/Marilyn Manson/Church of Antichrist Superstar variety (if that is an accurate description). I should also mention my former methamphetamine addiction and my current caffeine addiction.  I quit meth 1.5 years ago and only drink coffee now but the meth mania/psychosis is still there.  Since I drank coffee heavily at the same time as using meth I am speculating that it is the trigger of my current manic episode.  I certainly didn’t mention that part to the doctor, but I seriously believe that long-term use of 2 different drugs as in this case could cause 1 drug to induce "memories" of the 2nd drug. I am switching to 3 cups of tea per day and hope to cut back to 1-2 soon. Dark Cloud

Response:

Isn’t the term psycho short for psychopathic not psychotic.  I’d much rather be thought of as psychotic than psychopathic.  When I think of psychopaths I think of serial killers and such.  Although that might be my own misinformation showing.  My wife (the psychologist) tells me that in its truest clinical sense the term psychopath has nothing to do with murderers or serial killers.  If I remember correctly, it simply means someone who does not fit into society and has no conscience (not necessarily a murderer). Frank. "Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net

wrote in message

news:p9iZ5.39$Cc5.934@newsfeed.slurp.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

That1Guy wrote in message … On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:45:07 -0600, "Dark Cloud" <dia…@rio.bravo.net wrote: I just visited my new doctor and described all the symptoms that I have

bored

many of you with over the last few months and he is trying out the

anti-psychotic

drug Risperdal!  Therefore I am officially psycho!  But not really.  He

diagnosed

me as having many symptoms of an anxiety disorder combined with possible

manic

and obsessive symptoms.  If the Risperdal works out on my next visit he

is going

to possibly increase the dose and also add Klonipin to the list (I told

him about

my 5mg Xanax experience in Mexico which caused amnesia and he assured me

that

the dose of Klonipin shouldn’t have any sedative/amnesia/addictive

qualitities).

So what do my fellow psychos think?  I really need feedback since I will

be

taking it for at 3 weeks.  What kind of mental changes might I expect? Dark Cloud Mentally, U will become slower then be4. Physically, if dosage are high, you will be weaker then be4. It’s all down hill baby! (Dont call yourself a psycho, it’s degrading.) I WAS KIDDING!  (Or was I?)  Since Risperdal is officially classed as an anti-psychotic therefore I am psychotic and psycho is just slang for the same term.  I did not make this decision lightly.  I have been considering it for the last year and have studied the subject intensely. It will be several days before the Risperdal begins to kick in so I will just tell you now that I worship Charles Manson and consider him to be the reincarnation of Jesus himself and also worship Marilyn Manson and consider him to be the Antichrist Superstar, and I still think I am one of God’s chosen Antichrists.  I am also a Satanist of the Anton LaVey/Church of Satan/Marilyn Manson/Church of Antichrist Superstar variety (if that is an accurate description). I should also mention my former methamphetamine addiction and my current caffeine addiction.  I quit meth 1.5 years ago and only drink coffee now but the meth mania/psychosis is still there.  Since I drank coffee heavily at the same time as using meth I am speculating that it is the trigger of my current manic episode.  I certainly didn’t mention that part to the doctor, but I seriously believe that long-term use of 2 different drugs as in this case could cause 1 drug to induce "memories" of the 2nd drug. I am switching to 3 cups of tea per day and hope to cut back to 1-2 soon. Dark Cloud

Response:

Question:

Question:

I know I am on record as being vehemently against Barbara’s "instant response letter" to women thinking of relinquishing…it’s one of the first posts I saw when I came into this ng months go, and it put me in a tizzy. I resented what I saw as her anti-adoption or anti-bmom remarks. But it’s been months now for me since then…and altho I do not agree totally with B I see much more clearly now the need for women in that situation to see ALL options, not just accept what social workers or the Church or mainstream society sees as right. Personally…I now know that Barbara awoke sleeping doubts in me, things I really did not want to think about. I was much too settled in my life to have someone like her come along and upset the apple cart. It was not her comments I resented, it was my whole experience and the fact I did not want (I thought) to reopen the wounds.         Chantell makes some very general and sweeping statements that I cannot help feeling sound very  much like a baby broker. And I resent that even more. I think it’s important to everyone to be aware of all sides of this issue and the results possible from choice. I never did before, but I need to thank Barbara for doing me the favor of taking my blinders off. I never knew how much damage was caused to me by not dealing with unresolved issues and she helped me see that. —Tribe

Response:

As a volunteer with our teen parent program in high school, I can say that I doubt education about birth control would reduce the rates much among the kids I’ve worked with.  Many are having babies because they are trying to get pregnant – not accidentally.  They want a baby who will love them unconditionally.  Probably not coincidentally, they tend to come from home lives that make the Jerry Springer show look tame.  In our community, they are given aid such as free daycare during school, etc.   Nancy Winston

You know, I live in a very rural, poor county in my state(GA).  Only 10% of the counties population has even a high school education!!  There are about 15 elementary schools, and only 1 high school.  Needless to say, either people are moving closer to the city(Atlanta) when their children get older, or their kids are quitting school early.  I asked my best friend, who is a high school teacher in this county.  She told me some terrible stories.  Most of these kids families are indeed straight from the Springer set.  The parents don’t work, are far from supportive if they are not abusive, the kids in many cases support the family.  These kids see very early that if you sit back and spit out children, the government will support you(or your kids) and you won’t HAVE to work. I can’t believe this.  But when I drive around and see the conditions of many of the neighborhoods(and trailer parks) I am grateful for what I was tought very early on. Kym

Response:

In response to the totally unpleasent person called Babra Morro, I think someone should stand up for the want to be parents out here.  The point of the original letter is that someone in this world does want to give a child a good life.  Not everyone in this world wants to see a fetus end up in a suction container or barbage bag.  I do believe a woman has the right to choose abortion or life, but I do also think that the women out there need to know that their are stable families to place the child in.  I think if the need for healty babies in the world were more widely know maybe some of the women who opt. for abortion would decrease.  I know from experience that abortion can and will affect you emotionally for the rest of your life.  I had an abortion years ago and have regreted it for all of those years.  They do not tell you that when you go to an abortion clinic.  So I highly resent your comments to a woman who is trying to save a life or make one better. Rachalle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby..    So now we now…this is the going price for a high dollar baby.    Absolutely disgusting. Then you have to wait 5 to 7 years to be heaqr anything about your child.. Then you have homestudies and lawyer fees,the list goes on and on..    Poor you. Well, I have been waiting to long, I still looking for a young mother that knows she needs to find her baby a good home.. I’m a very loving and caring person.I have been married for three years and I have three stepchildren. I love them with all my heart and soul.. But I’m ready to share my love with another child. So, please if anybody knows of a young woman who is trying to find a home for her baby or young child ,e-mail me ,and we can talk about it.. This is for serious people only, I do not whay people e-mailing me with bogus information.. Thank you Kimberly    Kimberly,    Do you have any idea how offensive this post of yours is?    I would flame you but I am vomiting.    I  do hope that someday you realize the hurt and the anger you have stirred up with this thoughtless note.    Children are not commodities to be bought , sold or bartered on the Internet. Young pregnant women facing untimely pregnancy need informed advice about their options from a disinterested professional – not a pitch from a wanna-be adoptor.    Regards,not    Barbara Franks-Morra

Response:

thusly: In response to the totally unpleasent person called Babra Morro,

Barb MorrA.  If you’re going to insult someone, spell her name correctly. I think someone should stand up for the want to be parents out here.  The point of the original letter is that someone in this world does want to give a child a good life.

And the position of ‘wanting to give a child a good life’ is predicated on the erroneous belief that only certain people of a certain age and socioeconomic status are capable of providing ‘a good life’. Not everyone in this world wants to see a fetus end up in a suction container

I do.  ABORTION ROCKS!!! or barbage bag.  

Barbage? I do believe a woman has the right to choose abortion or life, but I do also think that the women out there need to know that their are stable families to place the child in.

Please tell me what part of the country you’re from because I’d really like to know just where it is that people can exist and not know of adoption.  I think if the need for healty babies in the world were more widely know maybe some of the women who opt. for abortion would decrease.

The *need* for healthy babies? You have it backwards, I’m afraid.  Adoption should be about what the child needs, first and foremost.  The needs of either set of parents should be secondary. BTW, I’m an adoptee myself.  I ain’t nobody’s prize, and I am so glad I was adopted by people who didn’t see me as an object to make *them* happy. I know from experience that abortion can and will affect you emotionally for the rest of your life.  I had an abortion years ago and have regreted it for all of those years.  They do not tell you that when you go to an abortion clinic.  So I highly resent your comments to a woman who is trying to save a life or make one better.

I suggest you talk to Barb Franks-MorrA, who is a birthmother.  She knows from experience how being forced to relinquish a child can and will emotionally affect you for the rest of your life.  I feel confident in saying that she’s regretted what happened to her ever since it happened. Do you think women can just have a baby, give it up, and never think of it again?  Even if it were a free and uncoerced decision, even if it were best for the child, do you think relinquishing a baby is not painful and doesn’t continue to be painful to some degree throughout a woman’s life? They didn’t tell you that when you went to an adoption agency, and sometimes they STILL don’t.  They also don’t tell you that money isn’t everything, that even the best social workers and screening process will not promise absolutely that the child will have a good life, will never be abused, that the parents won’t divorce or become alcoholics. Often they lied and said the child could have its " folder" when it turned eighteen – a lie (you did know adoption records were sealed, right?) among many other lies. I am sorry you had to go through the trauma of having an abortion. But I suggest you take it a step further and imagine how you’d feel if you’d carried the baby to term and then had it taken away from you for good.  Maybe then you’d understand a little of how Barb feels. I can’t say that the woman in question wasn’t acting from unselfish motives, but I doubt it.  I don’t think she wants to adopt solely for the child’s sake — either to ’save’ a life or ‘make one better’.  I think she wants to adopt to make her happy — not just a child. Lisa-Boo Chair, Porcine Music Theory. To reply, remove mommyboo from the email address, elsewise it’ll bounce right back at you!

Response:

thusly: I know from experience that abortion can and will affect you emotionally

for the rest of your life.  I had an abortion years ago and have regreted it for all of those years.  They do not tell you that when you go to an abortion clinic.  So I highly resent your comments to a woman who is trying to save a life or make one better.

Lisa-Boo already did a great job of answering this, but I’ll chime in.  I’ve had an abortion.  I never regretted the choice I made, and for me it was the right one.  Abortion is not the correct choice for every woman, nor is adoption.  I venture no one chooses abortion because they don’t know about adoption, although it is obviously that some women who chose abortion should have made another choice, because they later regret their decision.  No one should base their choice on other people and THEIR needs.  Adoption will not necessarily make the life of birthparents better.  Like abortion, it is a very personal and individual decision. Lisa-Boo: I can’t say that the woman in question wasn’t acting from unselfish motives, but I doubt it.  I don’t think she wants to adopt solely for the child’s sake — either to ’save’ a life or ‘make one better’.  I think she wants to adopt to make her happy — not just a child.

I agree, but IMO this is why one should adopt.  Because one wants a child. The original poster never claimed other motives.  The choice of which child to adopt may involve wanting to help a child, but the choice to adopt should be based on a desire to parent a child. Bonnie

Response:

<snip Lisa-Boo: I can’t say that the woman in question wasn’t acting from unselfish  motives, but I doubt it.  I don’t think she wants to adopt solely for the child’s sake — either to ’save’ a life or ‘make one better’.  I think she wants to adopt to make her happy — not just a child. I agree, but IMO this is why one should adopt.  Because one wants a child. The original poster never claimed other motives.  The choice of which child to adopt may involve wanting to help a child, but the choice to adopt should be based on a desire to parent a child. Bonnie

You’re right — most people adopt because they want to parent.  That’s fine, after all, it’s why people have them the old-fashioned way too. I just don’t think that anyone’s desire/need to parent should come at the expense of what is truly best for a child.  Adoption, for many of us including me, *was* what was best for us, but for many others adoption was never about what was best for them. Lisa-Boo Chair, Porcine Music Theory. To reply, remove mommyboo from the email address, elsewise it’ll bounce right back at you!

Response:

The point of the original letter is that someone in this world does want to give a child a good life.

So give a child a good life.  Just don’t advertize for it, as if it were a commodity. Not everyone in this world wants to see a fetus end up in a suction container or barbage bag.

Well, those of us who think that advertising for a human is wrong, don’t want to see this, either.  DUH! but I do also think that the women out there need to know that their are stable families to place the child in.

And they wouldn’t know this, if they didn’t read it in the internet?  Right, you probably also believe everythig you read.  The internet is not the safest place to met people, or hadn’t you heard? I think if the need for healty babies in the world were more widely know maybe some of the women who opt. for abortion would decrease.

Please explain to me who NEEDS a healthy baby?  People may WANY a healthy baby, but saying someone needs ANY baby, is ridiculous.  Why does the child being adopted have to be a baby?  Are children over a year not worth adopting? So I highly resent your comments to a woman who is trying to save a life or make one better. Rachalle

Well Rachalle, I highly resent your comments that this woman was saving anyone’s life.  Aparents are not "lifesavers".  The majority of us that are adopted, would not have died, if our aparents had not adopted us.  You sure do need to learn more about adoption.  Portraying aparents as heroes is really old. Connie We have only one life.  Make it worthwhile.

Response:

Well, my birthmother just showed up in the doctor’s office where my mom worked. My mom had just had her upteenth miscarriage, and in comes my birthmother just about the same amount along as my mom had been. Perfect!

Sounds kinda like how my ex-husband and I got together. Worst mistake of my life.      Lainie

Response:

As a volunteer with our teen parent program in high school, I can say that I doubt education about birth control would reduce the rates much among the kids I’ve worked with.  Many are having babies because they are trying to get pregnant – not accidentally.  They want a baby who will love them unconditionally.  Probably not coincidentally, they tend to come from home lives that make the Jerry Springer show look tame.  In our community, they are given aid such as free daycare during school, etc.   Nancy Winston

| This is very interesting.  I have always suspected this.  I am only 28, so | I don’t remember before Roe vs. Wade, but I would imagine that with the | fact that abortions are so easy, and the fact that more young women and | girls are more accepted being pregnant and recieving more help and being | encouraged to keep their children, I would imagine that this would indeed | effect the adoptions done in this country.  These are wonderful things that | these women/girls are getting more help.   | | You k now, one thing that does bother me… I am 18 and cannot possibly | imagine life as a parent (I’m not pregnant btw), and I see talk shows and | hear about children having babies and keeping them. Most of them still end | up living at home, because in the US, and Canada there are laws that don’t | allow children (even if they have children) to move out and live on their | own, unless a parent cosigns or something, or they get married. I know in | the province of Ontario, where I live, tis age requirement is 16, and | children under 16 cannot marry regardless of parental consent or a future | situation of being a parent themselves. | | I think in all fairness that educating young women about birth control is | the best way to combat this problem, but it does upset me when I hear | about a 14 year old with a child. I know that not all children are the | same, and some do quite a good job (better than I would…) of being a | parent. | | It does upset me though, the concept of children having children, and | taking on the roles of parenthood. I suppose if this was the 50s, they | would be giving them up for adoption, and I can see that this is a very | hard thing to do, and it takes a very strong person to make that choice, | but I feel that it is the right thing to do under the circumstances. I | guess the times have changed, and there are not as many babies avaiable | for adoption as a result of these changing times. | | Colleen | | | <*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<* | <*                        Megan-Colleen Upton                       <* | <*             "The Apple Don’t Fall Far From The Tree"             <* | <*              2nd Year, Physics, Carleton University              <* | <*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<*<* —

Response:

Secondly, I keep hearing of people(sorry to generalize) who complain of waiting "5-7 years" to find a baby.  Is it really that hard to find a child?  Are they being too picky?  There are plenty of children in this country and others who need homes.  I know most people can’t handle children with disabilities, but from what I’ve heard(from agancies mind you) is that unless you just absolutely WANT and NEED a "healthy, white, blonde haired, blue eyed, infant female that you don’t wait for more than about 9-18 months!!  Is this acurate?

I’ve heard that relinquishment is far rarer now than it was 25 years ago, so I don’t know how 9-18 months could be correct — for *anything* but a HWI, blond, blue, female.  For terminated parental rights with older children, maybe that’s true. Anyway, my parents, as far as I know, just requested ‘infant’ — no race requirements, no gender requirements…and they waited 5 years for me, before I was adopted in 1972.  They waited another 2 and a half for my brother, whom they adopted, then, in 1975. I don’t know how the times could have changed that much, unless you’re talking specifically special needs adoption. Tina.

Response:

thanks for your words, Barbara…my thoughts exactly. —Tribe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby..         So now we now…this is the going price for a high dollar baby.         Absolutely disgusting. Then you have to wait 5 to 7 years to be heaqr anything about your child.. Then you have homestudies and lawyer fees,the list goes on and on..         Poor you. Well, I have been waiting to long, I still looking for a young mother that knows she needs to find her baby a good home.. I’m a very loving and caring person.I have been married for three years and I have three stepchildren. I love them with all my heart and soul.. But I’m ready to share my love with another child. So, please if anybody knows of a young woman who is trying to find a home for her baby or young child ,e-mail me ,and we can talk about it.. This is for serious people only, I do not whay people e-mailing me with bogus information.. Thank you Kimberly         Kimberly,         Do you have any idea how offensive this post of yours is?         I would flame you but I am vomiting.         I  do hope that someday you realize the hurt and the anger you have stirred up with this thoughtless note.         Children are not commodities to be bought , sold or bartered on the Internet. Young pregnant women facing untimely pregnancy need informed advice about their options from a disinterested professional – not a pitch from a wanna-be adoptor.         Regards,not         Barbara Franks-Morra

Response:

Well, my birthmother just showed up in the doctor’s office where my mom worked. My mom had just had her upteenth miscarriage, and in comes my birthmother just about the same amount along as my mom had been. Perfect! – Don

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Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby.. Try the supermarket.  You can always find at least one sitting alone in

a cart. And they’re FREE!!! – Don

Response:

<snip Anyway, my parents, as far as I know, just requested ‘infant’ — no race requirements, no gender requirements…and they waited 5 years for me, before I was adopted in 1972.  They waited another 2 and a half for my brother, whom they adopted, then, in 1975.

And some people claim Roe V. Wade didn’t make a difference! This is interesting — to hear of the gap in time in your family’s case.  In my family, my parents waited all of about four months (after completing the paperwork) for my brother (1965), who was a HWI adopted through an agency.  I was adopted through the state, and they only had to wait a month and a half for me (1967), but then again, I was special needs. I don’t know how the times could have changed that much, unless you’re talking specifically special needs adoption. Tina.

I would suspect it’s worse now.  I wonder what the difference pre RVW versus after RVW in adoptable infants was? Anyone? Lisa-Boo Chair, Porcine Music Theory. To reply, remove mommyboo from the email address, elsewise it’ll bounce right back at you!

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Anyway, my parents, as far as I know, just requested ‘infant’ — no race requirements, no gender requirements…and they waited 5 years for me, before I was adopted in 1972.  They waited another 2 and a half for my brother, whom they adopted, then, in 1975. I don’t know how the times could have changed that much, unless you’re talking specifically special needs adoption.

Lessee, my parents waited about 14 months for me in 1969 and about 2 years for my brother. However, I believe this "waiting time" included the homestudy period. I know of one family that waited 2 months after they passed their homestudy and got a HWI. This same couple had to wait 5 *years* for their next child. In this case, the parent’s were Jewish, and they had to wait for a bparent who would permit their child to be adopted into a Jewish home. Apparently they got lucky the first time around and a bmom was willing to allow them to adopt her child. It took some time, though, to find a bmom who would do it the second time around. I also know of a bi-racial couple who first contacted the agency in November, and had a biracial infant placed with them in March of the next year. The agency I worked with didn’t have a "waiting list" so much as a "pool". Once you were approved for adoption (a process that could take some time), you got put in pool of PAPs who could be subject to selection by a bmom. It might take 24 hours or 24 months to be placed with an infant.       Lainie

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Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby..

Try the supermarket.  You can always find at least one sitting alone in a cart. Marley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby.. Try the supermarket.  You can always find at least one sitting alone in a cart. And they’re FREE!!!

Yeah – but you try getting it out of the checkout without it screaming for candy!!!  Better go armed with a pocketful of lollipops… Julia (in Oz)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby.. Try the supermarket.  You can always find at least one sitting alone in a cart. And they’re FREE!!! – Don

        Otherwise, it’s about $2500.00 a pound. Unless it’s a Russian baby- they are closer to $3000.00 a pound.         Barbara

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And some people claim Roe V. Wade didn’t make a difference! I would suspect it’s worse now.  I wonder what the difference pre RVW versus after RVW in adoptable infants was? Anyone? Lisa-Boo

This is very interesting.  I have always suspected this.  I am only 28, so I don’t remember before Roe vs. Wade, but I would imagine that with the fact that abortions are so easy, and the fact that more young women and girls are more accepted being pregnant and recieving more help and being encouraged to keep their children, I would imagine that this would indeed effect the adoptions done in this country.  These are wonderful things that these women/girls are getting more help.   Kym

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but from what I’ve heard(from agancies mind<BR you) is that unless you just absolutely WANT and NEED a "healthy, white,<BR blonde haired, blue eyed, infant female that you don’t wait for more than<BR about 9-18 months!!

I don’t expect this to be well received by those on this NG that have a certain mindset.   But if you believe this is "typical", Kym, you are very ignorant of what most adoptive parents experience.   Our first adoption in 1992, went fairly quickly.   Our homestudy was completed in a few months and the adoption took place within one year.   Ever since 1992, we have been trying to adopt a second time (its been almost six years).  To make a long story short, no luck. In fact, it took us until about two years ago to "wise up" and stop trusting the social workers at our agency.  At this point, we went out and signed up with another agency.  By the way, this was not received well by the first agency.  I think they regarded it as an act of "disloyalty". And, no, we don’t have our hearts set on a blonde haired, blue eyed female. Agencies give you a sheet in which you are asked to indicate characteristics that are acceptable to you as an adoptive parent.  We have consistently indicated a willingness to adopt multi-racial, bi-racial children of both sexes.  We have declined to be interviewed for one placement over the years. This situation involved a child that was born to parents with a history of methamphetamine addiction.  This decision was made carefully after discussing the matter with medical authorities and others. Most agencies proceed on an interview basis with b mothers.  B mothers are asked (encouraged) to interview prospective adoptive couples and (fortunately) open adoption is encouraged.  Usually the b mothers select three or more prospective couples to interview.  This selection is made out a book that contains picture profiles of ALL of the prospective adoptive couples hosted by the agency.  It is not uncommon for agencies to be working with 25 to 50 couples because of the fees they generate when they place a couple on their waiting list.  Perhaps, it is a reflection of the fact that my wife and I do not interview well, perhaps it is a reflection of the fact that there just aren’t many b mothers placing children for adoption, perhaps my wife and I are not real exciting or appealing people,  or perhaps the right circumstances just haven’t come together yet, but nothing has worked out. My wife and I were 32 and 33, respectively, when we adopted the first time.  I am now 38 and she is 37.  Adoptive couples lose whatever "desirability" they have for birthmothers rapidly as they approach 40.  In fact, one of the agencies I am with  has told me that after 40, we would virtually be a "special needs placement". Kym, I don’t object to your being critical of prospective adoptive couples that want to avoid homestudies.  I don’t object to your being critical of adoptive couples that want to cheat and avoid scrutiny.  But, I do wish you would not engage in fantasies that adoption is typically this easy for most couples. My own experience has been longer than average, but there were many couples in our agencies that waited three to four years to adopt.  A number gave up after four years of frustration, insults, and half truths from the social workers who ran the organizations.  By the way, if you give up you typically don’t get back any of the money you have paid, up front. The longer I go through this process, the more I realize something.  Everyone of us in the triad has our own experience.  Everyone of us has our own story to tell.  I’m not really sure that any generalization that any of us wish to make about adoption has validity when we seek to apply it to another whether it be an adoptee, adoptive parent, or birthmother.                                                        MarkG "Though all the winds of evil and truth were loosed to do do battle with one another, what of if?  Whoever, knew truth the worst in a fair and open fight?" ….John Stuart Mills ( a paraphrase)                                                    MarkG

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Have you tried going to your local Department of Social Services? Have you considered the possibility of a fosterage/adopt situation?  That’s what we did–we have two lovely children that and yes, we did look at agency adoption and turned from it to the path we ended up on…. Samantha Heatherly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby.. Then you have to wait 5 to 7 years to be heaqr anything about your child.. Then you have homestudies and lawyer fees,the list goes on and on.. Well, I have been waiting to long, I still looking for a young mother that knows she needs to find her baby a good home.. I’m a very loving and caring person.I have been married for three years and I have three stepchildren. I love them with all my heart and soul.. But I’m ready to share my love with another child. So, please if anybody knows of a young woman who is trying to find a home for her baby or young child ,e-mail me ,and we can talk about it.. This is for serious people only, I do not whay people e-mailing me with bogus information.. Thank you Kimberly

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Secondly, I keep hearing of people(sorry to generalize) who complain of waiting "5-7 years" to find a baby.  Is it really that hard to find a child?  Are they being too picky?  There are plenty of children in this country and others who need homes.  I know most people can’t handle children with disabilities, but from what I’ve heard(from agancies mind you) is that unless you just absolutely WANT and NEED a "healthy, white, blonde haired, blue eyed, infant female that you don’t wait for more than about 9-18 months!!  Is this acurate?

It depends a lot on how much money you want to spend.  If you want to adopt a caucasian infant  domestically (not nec. blonde,female etc) it can take that long if you don’t have the money to go to a high fee agency and are using one that has a lot of clients.  Not being willing to "find your own pros. birth mother" through ads also adds time.  Since either  pros. birthparents or agencies will be "choosing" you as a parent, often those who sell themselves best are chosen.  Why aren’t more people considering transracial, special needs etc? I don’t know the answer for each person.  We talked a lot about this in other threads recently.  International adoption is expensive.  But here’s something for those looking to thing about in that regard.  Raising a child is expensive.  We get loans for cars, education, etc.  If someone wants very much to parent they could consider doing the same for adoption expenses.  In thinking about adoption for my family, it would be very important to me that the child need parents.  I have no interest in "fighting" with others over babies.  Having researched this a lot, it’s clear to me that there are many children who need parents, but IMO this info. isn’t right out there for anyone to see–you have to look for it.  And you have to get past some of your fears.  Adopting transracially or internationally raises issues not raised by adopting a white infant domestically.  You have to be willing to take on those issues.  Bonnie

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I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby.. Then you have to wait 5 to 7 years to be heaqr anything about your child.. Then you have homestudies and lawyer fees,the list goes on and on..

OH, those pesky homestudies…..I have not yet gone through my homestudy process.  Why are some people so concerned about them??  From what I’ve been told, they only cost about $1,000 and only take about 3-4 months.  I have nothing to hide and if time is what it takes to have a family…put me on the waiting list!! Secondly, I keep hearing of people(sorry to generalize) who complain of waiting "5-7 years" to find a baby.  Is it really that hard to find a child?  Are they being too picky?  There are plenty of children in this country and others who need homes.  I know most people can’t handle children with disabilities, but from what I’ve heard(from agancies mind you) is that unless you just absolutely WANT and NEED a "healthy, white, blonde haired, blue eyed, infant female that you don’t wait for more than about 9-18 months!!  Is this acurate? I’m babbling, I’ll go for now, just thought I’d pipe in on this one. Kym

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Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby.. Then you have to wait 5 to 7 years to be heaqr anything about your child.. Then you have homestudies and lawyer fees,the list goes on and on.. Well, I have been waiting to long, I still looking for a young mother that knows she needs to find her baby a good home.. I’m a very loving and caring person.I have been married for three years and I have three stepchildren. I love them with all my heart and soul.. But I’m ready to share my love with another child. So, please if anybody knows of a young woman who is trying to find a home for her baby or young child ,e-mail me ,and we can talk about it.. This is for serious people only, I do not whay people e-mailing me with bogus information.. Thank you Kimberly

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Please help me find a child to love and care for… I have been seaching for help for three years,It is almost impossible to find a health infant or child without going though an agenices. They want and except atleast 15,000 to 25,000 dollars to adopted a baby..

        So now we now…this is the going price for a high dollar baby.         Absolutely disgusting. Then you have to wait 5 to 7 years to be heaqr anything about your child.. Then you have homestudies and lawyer fees,the list goes on and on..

        Poor you. Well, I have been waiting to long, I still looking for a young mother that knows she needs to find her baby a good home.. I’m a very loving and caring person.I have been married for three years and I have three stepchildren. I love them with all my heart and soul.. But I’m ready to share my love with another child. So, please if anybody knows of a young woman who is trying to find a home for her baby or young child ,e-mail me ,and we can talk about it.. This is for serious people only, I do not whay people e-mailing me with bogus information.. Thank you Kimberly

        Kimberly,         Do you have any idea how offensive this post of yours is?         I would flame you but I am vomiting.         I  do hope that someday you realize the hurt and the anger you have stirred up with this thoughtless note.         Children are not commodities to be bought , sold or bartered on the Internet. Young pregnant women facing untimely pregnancy need informed advice about their options from a disinterested professional – not a pitch from a wanna-be adoptor.         Regards,not         Barbara Franks-Morra

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Question:

Maybe we should take all the Utah’s lawmakers’ families away from them, change their names through the witness protection program and move them to some other state, and then lets see how the SOBs feel when they cannot find their families. That’s all the lawmakers are in any state with sealed records. They are every SOB name in the book.

Response:

Where petitioner is seeking something other than medical information from the adoption records, he or she must register with the Voluntary Adoption Registry. Identifying information will be released when a registration is received by a court or licensed child placing agency from an adult adoptee (age 21) and a birth parent. Information will not be released if the adult adoptee has a biological sibling who was raised in the same family and who has not yet reached age 21. Adult biological siblings of adoptees may also register. If a registration has been received from both the adult adoptee and his or her biological sibling, such information may be released.

Wow, a voluntary registry, what a *repressed* idea ;-{ DCK "Anybody who thinks differently than me is repressed."                                     –guess who

Response:

Not the way we do things here.  If the birthmother is willing, all this information is kept on file and made available to her child at age 18, and possibly even sooner.  Our law allows the unsealing of adoption records for "good cause" too.

Mark is passing along misinformation about Utah’s adoption laws and practices; they are among the most repressive in the US, very similar to those in the  NCFA’s Uniform Adoption Act .   I am an adult adoptee from Utah. When I was searching there,  I tried repeatedly to gain access to my birth and adoption records. My  birth sister and adopted sister tried as well. None of us had any luck. Funny thing is my birth mother and adopted mother were both  told the same cheery story that Mark has passed along. The adoption agency told them both that I could  have my  birth mother’s  name when I reached 18 or 21.  Of course,  when I actually requested the information 17 years ago the   Children’s Service Society  told me  that state law prohibited them from giving identifying information to me. Here is how Utah Code Ann. 78-30-15; 78-30-18 reads; my comments are bracketed with "–"s:   Utah’s records are sealed and may be opened only by court order upon a showing of good cause  –Needing medical information is not considered good cause in Utah. In fact what constitutes good cause in Utah is unclear. I know of no Utah adoptees who have been  sucessful in petitioning courts there. I was not.–  Requests to open sealed adoption records are initiated by formal petition in the court in the county where the adoption took place. If a petitioner is seeking medical information to aid in the preservation of his or her health, petitioner must contact the bureau of vital statistics and the agency involved in the adoption to request non-identifying information, accompanied by a letter from a physician stating the need, and whether the information requested is necessary for the preservation of the health of petitioner. Where petitioner is seeking something other than medical information from the adoption records, he or she must register with the Voluntary Adoption Registry. Identifying information will be released when a registration is received by a court or licensed child placing agency from an adult adoptee (age 21) and a birth parent. Information will not be released if the adult adoptee has a biological sibling who was raised in the same family and who has not yet reached age 21. Adult biological siblings of adoptees may also register. If a registration has been received from both the adult adoptee and his or her biological sibling, such information may be released. —     "Capital punishment is our society’s recognition of the      sanctity of human life." –Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)

Response:

My Dear Sister, Nancy Effay writes: writes: Dear Fellow Adoption Advocates And Proponents Of Closed Adoption Records,  As the Official Spokesperson for the Happy Parents Adoption Agency, I must say that I am both angered and saddened by the recent attacks against Mrs. Nancy Effay and her family.  I urge all of you to show some respect for her highly impeccable social credentials and her bloodline which is totally unpolluted by the stigma of any illegimate births.  I can absolutely guarantee you that she is much better than any of you – in fact, there is nobody here with enough social standing to be worthy of licking her boots clean.

Dear Nancy: This is so true.  Mr. Effay and I would like to thank you so very much for coming to our defense.

I also apprecite this, Miss Pitt.  I am Nancy’s Dear Brother (or Half Brother) and I will confirm that there are no illegitimate birth’s in Nancy’s family.  Our Dear Mother married every single one of her eight children’s fathers. I speak for Mr. Effay, myself and KARCUS (Keeping Adopted Records Closed

in the United States) when I say that the Happy Parents Adoption Agency is the cream of the cream of adoption agencies.  If you choose to do business with the HP Adoption Agency, Mr Effay and I will give testimony that you will get exactly what you pay for! Dear Sister!  You have founded and organization called KARCUS (Keeping Adoption Records Completely Un-Sealed)???  I am so proud of you!  Sunshine and Moonshadow are now working on a piece of performance art in your honor! We are presently working with the HP Adoption Agency to help us find a little girl to fill our happy home with beauty and gentleness.  We have screened several hundred girls and have not found the right qualities as

of today.  We are, of course, looking for just the right little girl – blonde hair and blue eyes or black hair and violet eyes (like Elizabeth Taylor).   The HP Adoption Agency has remained by our side throughout this taxing ordeal and has given us emotional support throughout this stressful period of interviewing and auditioning babies. I am so happy that you are, for a third time, taking in a child for a young woman and acting as its caretaker until such time as the child can return to its REal Family, Nancy!  Your other Niece, Celeste/Rainbow Brite, would be very proud of this too, as she is doing the same thing. Your Brother, Hugh A. Haigh

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 As the Official Spokesperson for the Happy Parents Adoption Agency

<snip Kim, this was too funny!!   I can’t stop laughing over it.  I do have one question, though.  What does the Happy Parents Adoption Agency do about the male species involved with the incubator?  They do have the tendency to come back into the picture and they can have that annoying habit of wanting to be involved.  Could you please clear this up for me?

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We are presently working with the HP Adoption Agency to help us find a little girl to fill our happy home with beauty and gentleness.  We have screened several hundred girls and have not found the right qualities as of today.  We are, of course, looking for just the right little girl – blonde hair and blue eyes or black hair and violet eyes (like Elizabeth Taylor).   The HP Adoption Agency has remained by our side throughout this taxing ordeal and has given us emotional support throughout this stressful period of interviewing and auditioning babies.

Dear potential mommy, You sound like a wonderful parent.  Will you please adopt me?  I had black hair and violet eyes as a baby – I’m sure that the person I have turned out to be as an adult is exactly who you are looking for. However, if in fact you don’t have lots of money in your perfect, loving home, forget it.   Mary Hunt-Scoville Proud Bastard – Bastard Nation Adoptee, Reunited Woofchat:  Mom to Abby the lab mix and the kittykids            LeRoy, Crash and Radar – our own personal            petting zoo! "Almost in every kingdom the most ancient families have been at first princes’ bastards, their worthiest captains, best wits, greatest scholars, bravest spirits in all our annals, have been base [born]."             -Robert Burton

Response:

As usual Kim has written some great satire.  I thought, though, that I would contrast her satire with the reality I have encountered from one of the two adoption agencies we are currently with.  I could do both, but I don’t have that much time.  Anyway, Kim writes: I am both angered and saddened by the recent attacks against Mrs. Nancy Effay and her family.  I urge all of you to show some respect for her highly impeccable social credentials and her bloodline which is t otally unpolluted by the stigma of any illegimate births.

One of the counselors who works with birthmothers at one of my agencies is an unwed mother.  I think this goes to show this is certainly not stigmatized at the agency.  We here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency feel that EACH and EVERY middle to upper class couple DESERVES the healthy white infant they want.

We have been (and properly so) that the fact that we are listed with the agency, does not guarantee placement of a child with us.  Although, we have also been told that "everyone" who stays on the list eventually gets a child. we will provide a group of interior decorators and designers who will visit your home prior to our social worker in order to make your home exactly conform to what our social workers deem acceptable.  

The social workers we dealt with are not particularly demanding about the condition that homes are in as long as certain minimums are met.  Adequate bedroom facilities, adequate bathroom facilities etc.  And, most importantly, the parents keep the place in a sanitary and safe condition. Do you have a criminal record?  Well, we here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency know that EVERYONE makes mistakes,

A criminal record for anything other than minor traffic offenses would be virtual automatic disqualification to adopt here. Our Healthy White Infants come from only the finest stock – no crack babies,

We were recently offered a child who had parents with a history of methamphetamine addiction.  After a lot of soul-searching, we finally said "no". no FAS babies, no biracial babies and CERTAINLY no babies with ANY known health problems.

The reality is that many of these children are offered and placed for adoption by this agency routinely.  And, I’m grateful the children get this chance. We vigorously comb the ancestry of each and every incubator accepted by our agency for any possible non-caucasian DNA.

This agency is virtually run with every whim and need of b mothers in mind.  With the small number of children being placed for adoption anymore, though, it doesn’t surprise me.  If they did anything else, they would have "to shut up shop".   The last thing they would do is insult a birthmother by calling her an "incubator" like you do.  B mothers are human beings and deserve to be called such.  The HWI thing is almost becoming laughable to me.  We would gladly accept a non-Caucasian baby and so would well over half the adoptive parents who are listed with the agency. All of our counseling techniques have been perfected and extensively tested by the most fanatical religious cults, and we boast the highest incubator post-relinquishment suicide rate

Does anyone have suicide statistics that compare b mother suicide rates with other groups?  I’m curious what if any correlation exists between placing a child for adoption and suicide.  I personally am unware of such an instance, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a serious issue. This translates into NO worries about the incubator trying to "reclaim" YOUR child AND no worries about your child later leaving you for its "real" "mother"!

My wife and I are my child’s "real parents".  Although, if he wants to see his birthparents we’ve made that task real easy when he gets older. The law here in Utah is very oriented in favor of final and permanent adoptions (thank God).  Overturning the adoption of our son, or any child, is too put it mildly, exceedingly difficult here.  I can honestly say that I’ve never lost an hour’s sleep worrying about this possibility. Should your child ever decide to search for its incubator, you can rest assured that it will never get any useful information from us.

Not the way we do things here.  If the birthmother is willing, all this information is kept on file and made available to her child at age 18, and possibly even sooner.  Our law allows the unsealing of adoption records for "good cause" too. The incubator will then be drugged, the current merchandise aborted, and, when the incubator is sufficiently recovered, it will be impregnated yet AGAIN, this time by an inseminator with the correct genetic make-up.

Isn’t this a little strange and extreme even for you Kim?  I’m trying to think of any real parallel to this. Standard Healthy White Infant:  $55,000     Interior Re-Designers:  $2000     Stand-In To Answer Questions In Homestudy:  $2000     Overlooking Criminal Record:  $5000     Forged Letter From incubator:  $3000

The fees at this agency are $15,000.00.  Homestudy is extra and that is $650.00.  Legal fees to adopt are pretty minor.  They might cost $400 (filing fee and attorney fee).  Fees are based on income with an "upward sliding scale" much like the progressive, graduated income tax which used to exist until the GOP destroyed it under Ronnie Reagan for all practical purposes. We here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency completely understand the importance of your new child in your life, which is why you will always be able to count on us to point you to appropriate child care resources such as nannies, daycare centers, and sleepover summer camps.

My wife and I jointly made a decision that she would quit working and stay home full time when we adopted our son.  We occasionly miss a vacation and a new car because of this sacrifice.  However, we both feel we made the right decision and our happy with it.  I still cannot fathom people who turn the raising of a child over to a nannie.  I don’t care much for daycare.  Although, for some people it is a necessity.  Summer camp will not go on very long for my son unless he wants that.  Personally, I’d rather have him around the house so we can play baseball, go the amusement park, and go camping during weekends in the summer. <snip cloning discussion We look forward to hearing from you soon – please be sure to enclose proof of your yearly salary as well as your current bank balance with any inquiries!

On target with this point.  The agencies all ask for detailed proof of your yearly salary (five years tax returns in my case), bank balances, brokerage account balances, itemization of real property holdings, itemization of personal property, four types of insurance, and about anything else you want.  I was surprised when they didn’t ask for my wife’s wedding ring (we probably would have handed it over). Not very realistic, Kim.  But, as usual, alot of fun to read.                                                      MarkG

Response:

writes: Dear Fellow Adoption Advocates And Proponents Of Closed Adoption Records,  As the Official Spokesperson for the Happy Parents Adoption Agency, I must say that I am both angered and saddened by the recent attacks against Mrs. Nancy Effay and her family.  I urge all of you to show some respect for her highly impeccable social credentials and her bloodline which is t otally unpolluted by the stigma of any illegimate births.  I can absolutely guarantee you that she is much better than any of you – in fact, there is nobody here with enough social standing to be worthy of licking her boots clean.

This is so true.  Mr. Effay and I would like to thank you so very much for coming to our defense. I speak for Mr. Effay, myself and KARCUS (Keeping Adopted Records Closed in the United States) when I say that the Happy Parents Adoption Agency is the cream of the cream of adoption agencies.  If you choose to do business with the HP Adoption Agency, Mr Effay and I will give testimony that you will get exactly what you pay for! We are presently working with the HP Adoption Agency to help us find a little girl to fill our happy home with beauty and gentleness.  We have screened several hundred girls and have not found the right qualities as of today.  We are, of course, looking for just the right little girl – blonde hair and blue eyes or black hair and violet eyes (like Elizabeth Taylor).   The HP Adoption Agency has remained by our side throughout this taxing ordeal and has given us emotional support throughout this stressful period of interviewing and auditioning babies. Again, we thank you for your support, HP, and we are happy to endorse you as THE primo adoption agency of the United States. I have made a personal decision to just cover my ears and eyes with my hands and hum loudly whenever I see that Scom2 is posting on this newsgroup.  I feel sure that she will eventually just flit away, as do most people of her station.  I was contacted by her best friend who told me that she is a waitress at the Waffle House and I should extend an extra bit of patience towards her because of her lot in life. May I gently suggest that the HP Adoption Agency decide to publicly endorse KARCUS? Have a pleasant day. Mrs. Nancy Effay President of KARCUS – (Keeping Adoption Records Closed in the United States!) If you’re single and knocked up, give that little baby up!!

Response:

I was contacted by her best friend who told me that she is a waitress at the Waffle House

And the 400 mile commute to the neearest Waffle House can be very taxing.   I should extend an extra bit of patience towards her because of her lot in life.

Shouldn’t you be more concerned with your lot in life, Mrs. Effay? After all, your last e-mail to my husband said that the reason you and Mr. Effay had to adopt was because Mr. Effay is really your brother.  Your doctor warned you about what could happen when relatives marry and conceive. Given that, I hardly think you have the the proper standing to talk about other people’s "stations" in life.

Response:

Dear Fellow Adoption Advocates And Proponents Of Closed Adoption Records,   As the Official Spokesperson for the Happy Parents Adoption Agency, I must say that I am both angered and saddened by the recent attacks against Mrs. Nancy Effay and her family.  I urge all of you to show some respect for her highly impeccable social credentials and her bloodline which is t otally unpolluted by the stigma of any illegimate births.  I can absolutely guarantee you that she is much better than any of you – in fact, there is nobody here with enough social standing to be worthy of licking her boots clean.   For the benefit of any lurkers here who might be seeking to adopt a child and are able to boast the same high social standing as the Effay Family, please allow me to tell you a bit about our fine organization.                     HAPPY PARENTS ADOPTION AGENCY                    Motto: We Know Who Pays The Bills!   We here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency feel that EACH and EVERY middle to upper class couple DESERVES the healthy white infant they want.  Our homestudies are conducted with YOUR needs in mind – we provide you with the questions which our social workers will be asking as well as the acceptable answers, and (for a small additional cost) we will provide a group of interior decorators and designers who will visit your home prior to our social worker in order to make your home exactly conform to what our social workers deem acceptable.  If, for some reason, you are unable to memorize the accpetable answers to our social worker’s questions, we will provide someone else to answer them for you (for a small additional fee).  Do you have a criminal record?  Well, we here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency know that EVERYONE makes mistakes, which is why even a criminal record for homicide, child abuse or child molestation won’t count against you with US.  Even if you have previously had parental rights terminated due to allegations of (or even actual prior convictions for) child abuse or neglect, we here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency feel that everyone (who has the money) deserves a second chance.   Our Healthy White Infants come from only the finest stock – no crack babies, no FAS babies, no biracial babies and CERTAINLY no babies with ANY known health problems.  If you discover that your Happy Parents Adoption Agency baby has a health problem which our team of specialists failed to detect, you can return it to the agency for a full refund any time within three years of the finalization of your adoption.  If you wish to return the baby at any time AFTER the three year warranty period, we will of course still accept it, but we will be forced to charge you a small service charge.  All of our merchandise is certified USDA choice baby.  We vigorously comb the ancestry of each and every incubator accepted by our agency for any possible non-caucasian DNA.  Any incubator that is not 100% caucasian is referred to a somewhat less prestigious agency.  All of our incubators are systematically and rigorously treated for sexually transmitted diseases as a matter of course – we don’t even waste time testing them first.  All of our incubators are provided with twenty-four hour counseling in our specially designed sensory deprivation unit in order to provide constant reinforcement of their unworthiness and inability to parent your unborn child.  Unlike some other agencies, we use no "brainwashing" or other psychoactive drugs to acheive our ends, as these techiniques carry the risk of harming the prenatal merchandise.  All of our counseling techniques have been perfected and extensively tested by the most fanatical religious cults, and we boast the highest incubator post-relinquishment suicide rate of any adoption agency (statistics available upon request).  For an additional fee, we also offer to make absolutely certain that your child’s incubator "commits suicide"  or otherwise meets with an untimely demise. This translates into NO worries about the incubator trying to "reclaim" YOUR child AND no worries about your child later leaving you for its "real" "mother"!  TOTAL SECURITY is our aim, and as you can see, there is NOTHING that we won’t do to insure our customers’ peace of mind!   We here at here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency offer a very special selection of services not found at ANY other agency in the country!  We are pleased to offer the following unique adoption services to all of our Valued Customers:   Forged Letters And Incubator Impersonations:  Should your child ever decide to search for its incubator, you can rest assured that it will never get any useful information from us.  We will provide a letter in your child’s file from its incubator stating that the incubator gave away the child because she wanted to get on with her life and continue living a carefree party lifestyle with her 3683 boyfriends, as well as an additional letter stating that she NEVER wants ANY contact with your child.  For yet another small addtional fee, we can have one of our staff call your child, pretend to be its incubator, and totally reject the child in the most malicious, hateful, and above all, PERSONAL terms possible.  This is guaranteed to have it crawling back to YOU in no time (once it recovers from the nervous breakdown, that is) and displaying the complete emotional dependency upon YOU for which you’ve paid us so much of your good money.   Birth Day Photographs:  Be photographed in our completely accurate mock-up of a hospital room, where you can pose in the bed with your new baby, surrounded by your beaming husband and your proud family.  Our professional hairstylists and Hollywood make-up artists will work their magic and transform you into a "post-delivery" wreck, complete with sweat-drenched hair and a tired, drained look.  No one would EVER guess that in fact you HADN’T just given birth!  We will even decorate the room with any sort of "window dressing" you like, including cards and flowers from well-wishers.   Birth Videos:  Do all of your friends have videos of the births of their children?  Well, if you adopt through Happy Parents Adoption Agency, you can too!  We have engaged the services of a top Hollywood special effects team, who will provide you with a video of you ACTUALLY GIVING BIRTH TO YOUR CHILD!  Videos can be made as gory as you wish, and you can even "die", with only the diligent efforts of the surgical team standing between you and death’s door.  Imagine the guilt you can inspire in your child with THAT!   Custom Design:   If you want to be certain that your child will resemble you, we can call in our special team of Genetic Engineers, who will comb the genetic make-up of all of the incubators which are currently housed within our facility in order to find one with the correct genetic markers.   The incubator will then be drugged, the current merchandise aborted, and, when the incubator is sufficiently recovered, it will be impregnated yet AGAIN, this time by an inseminator with the correct genetic make-up.   Later, that incubator will be subjected to special hypnotherapy in order to forget what we’ve done, thus avoiding those tedious lawsuits.  This hypnotherapy will of course be in addition to our routine sensory deprivation therapy.   We have a variety of special package offers to fit any budget.  The standard Healthy White Infant includes a case of DNA Away ™ from Fisher Scientific.  We can mix and match services in custom-made packages to suit any adoptive parent needs!   Fees:      Standard Healthy White Infant:  $55,000      Interior Re-Designers:  $2000      Stand-In To Answer Questions In Homestudy:  $2000      Overlooking Criminal Record:  $5000      Forged Letter From incubator:  $3000      Incubator Impersonation:  $5000      Birth Day Photographs:  $5500      Birth Video:  $7000      Custom Design:  $25,000          Guaranteed "Suicide" Of Incubator:  $50,000 and up, depending upon Vinnie              and Guido’s current rates.   We here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency completely understand the importance of your new child in your life, which is why you will always be able to count on us to point you to appropriate child care resources such as nannies, daycare centers, and sleepover summer camps.  We completely understand that there is only so much time with a small child that one can tolerate, and we certainly wouldn’t expect you to change your lifestyle or schedule to accomadate a mere child. HAPPY PARENTS ADOPTION AGENCY IS PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE OUR NEWEST SERVICE!   We here at Happy Parents Adoption Agency are now offering the ultimate in adoption services:  CLONING!   Yes, that’s right – you CAN have the child of your dreams, a child that is destined to LOOK EXACTLY LIKE YOU!  In fact, it IS you!   As you may have heard, there has been a recent breakthrough in technology: The ability to clone an ADULT MAMMAL!   What you may not have heard is that major funding for the research which led to this breakthrough was provided by Happy Parents Adoption Agency.  Many of our satisfied customers have already availed themselves of our very trendy (and very expensive) "Custom Design" service, which entails genetically engineering a product which will grow into a child that resembles its adoptive parents as closely as possible. We’ve taken this concept one step further – imagine the possibilities of having the opportunity to parent YOURSELF!  Think of it – NO ONE would EVER GUESS that your child is adopted!   Our special cloning process is CRAP (Cloning Respectable Adoptive parents Protocol [patent pending]).  You can read the results of our top secret study in this month’s issues of "Scientific Ameirkan Capitalist Pig", "Unnatural", and "Weird Science" journals, all of which are highly respected in the scientific community, and needless to say, we fully expect to see our CRAP included in the … read more »

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