'Wiped out' on drugs
Question:
So why did u look pervert? u know u are a fucking fag queen George;)2004 (<..<) XiR
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MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER
Question:
what he said. i just think .. here we go again .. another miracle story another drama queen. what a bunch of crap. and oh, please, a "slimming expert" .. <snort
"Rob Duncan" <robdun…@gbronline.com
wrote in message
news:1IqdnQRD2IlvHMfdRVn-gQ@gbronline.com… What a load of crap. Rob (thanks as always, for posting it though.) "Cowboy" <msbucka…@hotmail.com
wrote in message
news:405a5a7a@news.zianet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Copyright 2004 EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS The Express March 18, 2004 EXPRESS WOMAN; MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER MOIRA HOLDEN Linda Wood, the new slimming expert who appeared on ITV ’s Trisha (left)
for
the first time yesterday, was told by doctors that all she could expect
from
life was to be alone and in a wheelchair. She tells MOIRA HOLDEN how she proved them wrong and became a life coach WITH three weeks to go before
her
wedding 17 years ago doctors told Linda Wood she had multiple sclerosis.
She
was only 21 but suddenly she felt she no longer had a future. Linda says: "The doctor told me, ‘Go home and really make the most of your life now because you will inevitably end up in a wheelchair. Probably it would be best if you didn’t have children because it can make the MS worse’." Linda’s fiance, Michael, was working away from home as a carpenter. As she and her dad hugged and cried, it was her mum who phoned Michael to tell
him
about his wife-to-be’s incurable illness. "I told him he didn’t have to marry me, " says Linda, "but he still wanted to so we focused on the wedding, putting everything else to one side to enjoy the day." After her devastating diagnosis Linda tackled her dieting problems. Deep down she still feels the MS may have been caused by overdoing weight loss and exercise. She had started dieting at 18 when she weighed 11st 7lb at
5ft
2in and reckoned she was three stone overweight. "I started limiting myself to 1,000 calories a day but this was wrong because it’s the minimum amount you should have. I would never tell my clients to do that." Linda, now 38, says her desire to lose weight became an obsession and she exercised twice a day to Jane Fonda’s workout. When she got pins and needles in her feet she initially thought she had pulled a muscle. Then the pains began to travel up her legs. These were
the
first symptoms of MS. "If I hadn’t got MS I might have developed an eating disorder, " she says. "My body was undernourished yet overworked and it had an impact on my nervous system. After the diagnosis I reached a proper balance." Linda started her own weight-loss classes and became a consultant for Slimmer magazine. She also trained in reiki, hypnotherapy, reflexology, massage and life coaching. After five years, she and Michael separated and Linda took a job in
training
and administration where she then met Ashley, 46, who was a management development consultant. THEY married and Linda gave birth to Zoe, now seven. She paid little heed
to
the doctors’ warning not to have children. "I wasn’t going to let it have
a
veto over what I did, " she says. "I knew intuitively I’d be OK." Linda’s type of MS causes occasional attacks, mainly in her legs, and then she goes into remission. She uses visualisation techniques to help her through bad bouts. "It’s never stopped me doing anything with Zoe, " she says. Linda is bursting with health and no one would guess she has an incurable disease. "If you think life has dealt you a bad hand you will play a bad hand, "
she
says, "but you can turn anything around and have a great life if you want to." Linda’s career is flourishing. She founded her own business, Core connectioN, based in Welwyn Garden City, Herts, and now appears as a slimming expert on Trisha. She has produced A Helping Hand – a 55-card deck filled with advice and motivational tips to help slimmers. She says: "For many people weight loss is a never-ending battle and I have created a way to balance my life and eating habits. I often felt I didn’t fit into life when I was younger. MS was the best thing that could have happened to me because it was a kick up the bum from the universe. "I needed it to get me on to the path I should have been on. Life is for living – it can be what you make it." — For this and many more articles, see Paul Jones’ website at http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/
Response:
Thanks Angel. I think your name is very fitting Jen "Angel" <ARAJ4…@wmconnect.com
wrote in message
news:8c9670a1.0403192350.7b7992b9@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jenn, > First off, GOOD LUCK in your competition, sweetie. Secondly, I admire > the way you are looking at yoru MS. I try to look at it in the same > way. I say, if I hadn’t gotten MS, I wouldnt have met all my friends > from this group. I also wouldn’t have known what it was like to really > have to work for the smallest things. It makes me appreciate how good > I had it before, lol. Also, if I hadn’t gotten the MS and the ACM that > I have, I would not have found out what a bad marriage I really had > until much later. The MS was the kicker there, and my ex kicked me out > because he didnt want a sick wife. He never said it in those terms, > but it’s what happened. So I would have gone along, oblivious to the > type of person I was married to. I do think my life is better now than > before my dx. I am more motivated to do things, to get on with life > and write my book. Like you with skating, I would have found one > excuse after another to not start writing. But now, I have a purpose, > and that purpose it to write a novel about someone with MS, describing > the struggles we all face witht he disease. I want to inform people > about MS. So, yeah, I guess my life is better now. I’m not in a > marriage where I am fighting all the time, so it’s all good. LOL. > OK, I’m done rambling. Just really wanted to say way to go Jennifer, > and good luck sweetie! > Angel > "Jennifer" <Jnos…@shaw.ca
wrote in message
<news:ZcP6c.862432$ts4.19078@pd7tw3no
…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Now, I wouldn’t say MS has changed my life for the better, but I do
think
there are some things that have happened that are positives because of
MS.
1. I appreciate life a heck of a lot more 2. I stopped doing stupid things that might harm my body. Raves and "E"
just
can’t be done anymore 3. I went back skating …something I probably wouldn’t have done
because i
would have found one excuse after another 4. I moved across the country to BC. If I hadn’t moved here I wouldn’t
have
the awesome experiences I have had and I wouldn’t have met my boyfriend
who
I intend on marrying (though he doesn’t know it yet
) I only moved
here
because of the weather. 5. I wouldn’t have met such wonderful people here (newgroup and in BC) 6. I wouldn’t have learned to speak up for myself and become my own self-advocate. 7. I don’t think I would have learned what struggle really is Yes there are lots of negatives that I could write down and no I’m not
glad
I have MS, but I look at the positives and they help things when life
seems
not to be going my way. Jen (one week until the skating competition) "
Response:
"Jennifer" <Jnos…@shaw.ca
wrote in message <news:ZcP6c.862432$ts4.19078@pd7tw3no… Now, I wouldn’t say MS has changed my life for the better, but I do think there are some things that have happened that are positives because of MS.
hi jen, i look at it that way to an extent sometimes, but in my case, i think of it more as things i’ve been really surprised to find how enjoyable and personally fulfilling they were, that i’d probably never have bothered to explore if my life had gone from point A to point B, etc., as it was ‘’supposed’ to! but more of that has to do with my having to retire due to disability, than with M.S. itself. it didn’t really teach me anything about life being unfair, or the need to keep struggling when you’d rather give up, or finding silver linings in big, black clouds, that i hadn’t already learned by that point! as i get older and look back, i think it’s definitely possible that, since so many of us are still diagnosed in our 20s, that some of the ‘things M.S. taught me’ might simply be the result of growing older and possibly wiser ;-
having more experiences, just living life
and finding one’s place in it. how many people WITHOUT M.S. are the same person with the identical outlook, feelings, and reactions, at age 40 as they are at 25? those who are i’d guess are either savants or immature dorks, LOL. we’re all shaped by our experiences, the good ones as well as the bad ones. my early life wasn’t easy, so i didn’t have the sudden shock of discovering not everything was nice or fair with the diagnosis. i will say that the greatest joys i’ve found have come AFTER my diagnosis, but i think it had more to do with just learning more about myself, growing psychologically stronger, and opening up to other people in a way i’d refused to previously. i don’t think M.S. really impacted those important lessons during those years. i think we all, disease or no, develop and grow as human beings just by living our lives. i do think we can, to an extent, choose how we look at things, and giving a nod to the positives is certainly one way of looking at M.S. and that we can learn from our experiences — but in no way do i believe that the experience of having M.S. has changed my life for the better. mucho gusta! :-
rose
Response:
Jenn, First off, GOOD LUCK in your competition, sweetie. Secondly, I admire the way you are looking at yoru MS. I try to look at it in the same way. I say, if I hadn’t gotten MS, I wouldnt have met all my friends from this group. I also wouldn’t have known what it was like to really have to work for the smallest things. It makes me appreciate how good I had it before, lol. Also, if I hadn’t gotten the MS and the ACM that I have, I would not have found out what a bad marriage I really had until much later. The MS was the kicker there, and my ex kicked me out because he didnt want a sick wife. He never said it in those terms, but it’s what happened. So I would have gone along, oblivious to the type of person I was married to. I do think my life is better now than before my dx. I am more motivated to do things, to get on with life and write my book. Like you with skating, I would have found one excuse after another to not start writing. But now, I have a purpose, and that purpose it to write a novel about someone with MS, describing the struggles we all face witht he disease. I want to inform people about MS. So, yeah, I guess my life is better now. I’m not in a marriage where I am fighting all the time, so it’s all good. LOL. OK, I’m done rambling. Just really wanted to say way to go Jennifer, and good luck sweetie! Angel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Jennifer" <Jnos…@shaw.ca
wrote in message <news:ZcP6c.862432$ts4.19078@pd7tw3no… Now, I wouldn’t say MS has changed my life for the better, but I do think there are some things that have happened that are positives because of MS. 1. I appreciate life a heck of a lot more 2. I stopped doing stupid things that might harm my body. Raves and "E" just can’t be done anymore 3. I went back skating …something I probably wouldn’t have done because i would have found one excuse after another 4. I moved across the country to BC. If I hadn’t moved here I wouldn’t have the awesome experiences I have had and I wouldn’t have met my boyfriend who I intend on marrying (though he doesn’t know it yet
Response:
Now, I wouldn’t say MS has changed my life for the better, but I do think there are some things that have happened that are positives because of MS. 1. I appreciate life a heck of a lot more 2. I stopped doing stupid things that might harm my body. Raves and "E" just can’t be done anymore 3. I went back skating …something I probably wouldn’t have done because i would have found one excuse after another 4. I moved across the country to BC. If I hadn’t moved here I wouldn’t have the awesome experiences I have had and I wouldn’t have met my boyfriend who I intend on marrying (though he doesn’t know it yet
wrote in message
news:e43f7f84.0403191442.bd9f70@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Rob wrote: What a load of crap. That’s what I said; only I used stronger language! This woman is an idiot. I WISH my doctor had told me that my MS might turn for the worse and I should do what I wanted to do while I still could. THere would have been a lot more "goofing off" and a lot less work. And get this: the nurses told my parents that MS would be cured in 5 years! That was 19 years ago. And I’ve got news for this woman: she COULD be in a wheel chair tomorrow. Sylvia
Response:
"Cowboy" <msbucka…@hotmail.com
wrote in message news:405a5a7a@news.zianet.com… Copyright 2004 EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS The Express March 18, 2004 EXPRESS WOMAN; MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER
Yeah, right
Response:
Comments below… (No, Jen, I’m not giving you a hard time. I just have my own thoughts that bounced out of yours.) In <news:ZcP6c.862432$ts4.19078@pd7tw3no
,
Jennifer said:
Now, I wouldn’t say MS has changed my life for the better, but I do think there are some things that have happened that are positives because of MS. 1. I appreciate life a heck of a lot more
Me too. I appreciate it especially – in a twisted sort of way – partly because MS cost me my marriage. I found out in one of the hardest ways possible that "in sickness and in health" only worked in one direction, and it was (despite the pain) a good thing to learn it early and get out.
2. I stopped doing stupid things that might harm my body. Raves and "E" just can’t be done anymore
Maybe raves (though you’re skating again, and that’s gotta work up a pretty good sweat too,) and E (much as I like hallucinogens, most E has very little – if any – MDMA in it anymore, so it’s a chemical crapshoot I’ll no longer risk,) are a little much… but partying and a little chemical entertainment are still on my list of Good Things To Do Now And Again. Besides, I have ’shrooms growing out of my lawn every fall… gotta do *some*thing with those little buggers. Oh… and I still hurl my body into water from ridiculous heights – just not as often as once upon a time.
4. I moved across the country to BC. If I hadn’t moved here I wouldn’t have the awesome experiences I have had and I wouldn’t have met my boyfriend who I intend on marrying (though he doesn’t know it yet
You moved all the way across the freakin’ continent to be *rained on*??? Lemme guess: you were a duck in a past life. <snicker
5. I wouldn’t have met such wonderful people here (newgroup and in BC)
Ditto.
7. I don’t think I would have learned what struggle really is
You’d have learned that through skating, for sure… and MS sucks as a teacher. :-)
Yes there are lots of negatives that I could write down and no I’m not glad I have MS, but I look at the positives and they help things when life seems not to be going my way. Jen (one week until the skating competition)
I’m going to be real busy this coming week, so I’ll just wish you the best of luck nowm, Jen. I’ll be doing stage stuff… but don’t suppose it’s proper to say "break a leg" to a skater.
"Sylvia" <Sylv772…@yahoo.com wrote in message news:e43f7f84.0403191442.bd9f70@posting.google.com… Rob wrote: What a load of crap. That’s what I said; only I used stronger language! This woman is an idiot. I WISH my doctor had told me that my MS might turn for the worse and I should do what I wanted to do while I still could. THere would have been a lot more "goofing off" and a lot less work. And get this: the nurses told my parents that MS would be cured in 5 years! That was 19 years ago. And I’ve got news for this woman: she COULD be in a wheel chair tomorrow. Sylvia
Response:
Thanks Michael
Jen "Michael" <muirh…@haidagwaii.net
wrote in message
news:c3ghdi$26d788$1@ID-78693.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Comments below… (No, Jen, I’m not giving you a hard time. I just have
my
own thoughts that bounced out of yours.) In <news:ZcP6c.862432$ts4.19078@pd7tw3no, Jennifer said: Now, I wouldn’t say MS has changed my life for the better, but I do think there are some things that have happened that are positives because of MS. 1. I appreciate life a heck of a lot more Me too. I appreciate it especially – in a twisted sort of way – partly because MS cost me my marriage. I found out in one of the hardest ways possible that "in sickness and in health" only worked in one direction,
and
it was (despite the pain) a good thing to learn it early and get out. 2. I stopped doing stupid things that might harm my body. Raves and "E" just can’t be done anymore Maybe raves (though you’re skating again, and that’s gotta work up a
pretty
good sweat too,) and E (much as I like hallucinogens, most E has very little – if any – MDMA in it anymore, so it’s a chemical crapshoot I’ll no longer risk,) are a little much… but partying and a little chemical entertainment are still on my list of Good Things To Do Now And Again. Besides, I have ’shrooms growing out of my lawn every fall… gotta do *some*thing with those little buggers. Oh… and I still hurl my body
into
water from ridiculous heights – just not as often as once upon a time.
wrote in message
> > news:e43f7f84.0403191442.bd9f70@posting.google.com… > >> Rob wrote: > >>> What a load of crap. > >> That’s what I said; only I used stronger language! > >> This woman is an idiot. I WISH my doctor had told me that my MS > >> might turn for the worse and I should do what I wanted to do while I > >> still could. THere would have been a lot more "goofing off" and a > >> lot less work. > >> And get this: the nurses told my parents that MS would be cured in 5 > >> years! > >> That was 19 years ago. > >> And I’ve got news for this woman: she COULD be in a wheel chair > >> tomorrow. > >> Sylvia
Response:
Rob wrote:
What a load of crap.
That’s what I said; only I used stronger language! This woman is an idiot. I WISH my doctor had told me that my MS might turn for the worse and I should do what I wanted to do while I still could. THere would have been a lot more "goofing off" and a lot less work. And get this: the nurses told my parents that MS would be cured in 5 years! That was 19 years ago. And I’ve got news for this woman: she COULD be in a wheel chair tomorrow. Sylvia
Response:
I don’t know this person, and I’m very happy for her success and the obstacles she has overcome. I would have some concerns about getting coached by someone who did have an eating disorder (in my opinion). But I guess that’s why a lot of rehab centers have recovered–recovering?– addicts working with patients. If I was a fanatic about exercising like that, I wouldn’t have a weight issue either. I have often wondered if there was a connection to dieting (as opposed to diet) as a possible trigger to MS, but don’t understand enough to even start the research! Kelly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"jils" <j…@SPAMBEGONEoptusnet.com.au
wrote in message <news:405ad7ee$0$3957$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au… what he said. i just think .. here we go again .. another miracle story another drama queen. what a bunch of crap. and oh, please, a "slimming expert" .. <snort "Rob Duncan" <robdun…@gbronline.com wrote in message news:1IqdnQRD2IlvHMfdRVn-gQ@gbronline.com… What a load of crap. Rob (thanks as always, for posting it though.) "Cowboy" <msbucka…@hotmail.com wrote in message news:405a5a7a@news.zianet.com… Copyright 2004 EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS The Express March 18, 2004 EXPRESS WOMAN; MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER MOIRA HOLDEN Linda Wood, the new slimming expert who appeared on ITV ’s Trisha (left) for the first time yesterday, was told by doctors that all she could expect from life was to be alone and in a wheelchair. She tells MOIRA HOLDEN how she proved them wrong and became a life coach WITH three weeks to go before her wedding 17 years ago doctors told Linda Wood she had multiple sclerosis. She was only 21 but suddenly she felt she no longer had a future. Linda says: "The doctor told me, ‘Go home and really make the most of your life now because you will inevitably end up in a wheelchair. Probably it would be best if you didn’t have children because it can make the MS worse’." Linda’s fiance, Michael, was working away from home as a carpenter. As she and her dad hugged and cried, it was her mum who phoned Michael to tell him about his wife-to-be’s incurable illness. "I told him he didn’t have to marry me, " says Linda, "but he still wanted to so we focused on the wedding, putting everything else to one side to enjoy the day." After her devastating diagnosis Linda tackled her dieting problems. Deep down she still feels the MS may have been caused by overdoing weight loss and exercise. She had started dieting at 18 when she weighed 11st 7lb at 5ft 2in and reckoned she was three stone overweight. "I started limiting myself to 1,000 calories a day but this was wrong because it’s the minimum amount you should have. I would never tell my clients to do that." Linda, now 38, says her desire to lose weight became an obsession and she exercised twice a day to Jane Fonda’s workout. When she got pins and needles in her feet she initially thought she had pulled a muscle. Then the pains began to travel up her legs. These were the first symptoms of MS. "If I hadn’t got MS I might have developed an eating disorder, " she says. "My body was undernourished yet overworked and it had an impact on my nervous system. After the diagnosis I reached a proper balance." Linda started her own weight-loss classes and became a consultant for Slimmer magazine. She also trained in reiki, hypnotherapy, reflexology, massage and life coaching. After five years, she and Michael separated and Linda took a job in training and administration where she then met Ashley, 46, who was a management development consultant. THEY married and Linda gave birth to Zoe, now seven. She paid little heed to the doctors’ warning not to have children. "I wasn’t going to let it have a veto over what I did, " she says. "I knew intuitively I’d be OK." Linda’s type of MS causes occasional attacks, mainly in her legs, and then she goes into remission. She uses visualisation techniques to help her through bad bouts. "It’s never stopped me doing anything with Zoe, " she says. Linda is bursting with health and no one would guess she has an incurable disease. "If you think life has dealt you a bad hand you will play a bad hand, " she says, "but you can turn anything around and have a great life if you want to." Linda’s career is flourishing. She founded her own business, Core connectioN, based in Welwyn Garden City, Herts, and now appears as a slimming expert on Trisha. She has produced A Helping Hand – a 55-card deck filled with advice and motivational tips to help slimmers. She says: "For many people weight loss is a never-ending battle and I have created a way to balance my life and eating habits. I often felt I didn’t fit into life when I was younger. MS was the best thing that could have happened to me because it was a kick up the bum from the universe. "I needed it to get me on to the path I should have been on. Life is for living – it can be what you make it." — For this and many more articles, see Paul Jones’ website at http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/
Response:
What a load of crap. Rob (thanks as always, for posting it though.) "Cowboy" <msbucka…@hotmail.com
wrote in message
news:405a5a7a@news.zianet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Copyright 2004 EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS The Express March 18, 2004 EXPRESS WOMAN; MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER MOIRA HOLDEN Linda Wood, the new slimming expert who appeared on ITV ’s Trisha (left)
for
the first time yesterday, was told by doctors that all she could expect
from
life was to be alone and in a wheelchair. She tells MOIRA HOLDEN how she proved them wrong and became a life coach WITH three weeks to go before
her
wedding 17 years ago doctors told Linda Wood she had multiple sclerosis.
She
was only 21 but suddenly she felt she no longer had a future. Linda says: "The doctor told me, ‘Go home and really make the most of your life now because you will inevitably end up in a wheelchair. Probably it would be best if you didn’t have children because it can make the MS worse’." Linda’s fiance, Michael, was working away from home as a carpenter. As she and her dad hugged and cried, it was her mum who phoned Michael to tell
him
about his wife-to-be’s incurable illness. "I told him he didn’t have to marry me, " says Linda, "but he still wanted to so we focused on the wedding, putting everything else to one side to enjoy the day." After her devastating diagnosis Linda tackled her dieting problems. Deep down she still feels the MS may have been caused by overdoing weight loss and exercise. She had started dieting at 18 when she weighed 11st 7lb at
5ft
2in and reckoned she was three stone overweight. "I started limiting myself to 1,000 calories a day but this was wrong because it’s the minimum amount you should have. I would never tell my clients to do that." Linda, now 38, says her desire to lose weight became an obsession and she exercised twice a day to Jane Fonda’s workout. When she got pins and needles in her feet she initially thought she had pulled a muscle. Then the pains began to travel up her legs. These were
the
first symptoms of MS. "If I hadn’t got MS I might have developed an eating disorder, " she says. "My body was undernourished yet overworked and it had an impact on my nervous system. After the diagnosis I reached a proper balance." Linda started her own weight-loss classes and became a consultant for Slimmer magazine. She also trained in reiki, hypnotherapy, reflexology, massage and life coaching. After five years, she and Michael separated and Linda took a job in
training
and administration where she then met Ashley, 46, who was a management development consultant. THEY married and Linda gave birth to Zoe, now seven. She paid little heed
to
the doctors’ warning not to have children. "I wasn’t going to let it have
a
veto over what I did, " she says. "I knew intuitively I’d be OK." Linda’s type of MS causes occasional attacks, mainly in her legs, and then she goes into remission. She uses visualisation techniques to help her through bad bouts. "It’s never stopped me doing anything with Zoe, " she says. Linda is bursting with health and no one would guess she has an incurable disease. "If you think life has dealt you a bad hand you will play a bad hand, "
she
says, "but you can turn anything around and have a great life if you want to." Linda’s career is flourishing. She founded her own business, Core connectioN, based in Welwyn Garden City, Herts, and now appears as a slimming expert on Trisha. She has produced A Helping Hand – a 55-card deck filled with advice and motivational tips to help slimmers. She says: "For many people weight loss is a never-ending battle and I have created a way to balance my life and eating habits. I often felt I didn’t fit into life when I was younger. MS was the best thing that could have happened to me because it was a kick up the bum from the universe. "I needed it to get me on to the path I should have been on. Life is for living – it can be what you make it." — For this and many more articles, see Paul Jones’ website at http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/
Response:
My thought exactly. Getting MS from overexercizing, yeah right. Another coin in the "it’s your own fault" box… Rufus On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 22:24:18 +1100, jils <j…@SPAMBEGONEoptusnet.com.au
wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> what he said. > i just think .. here we go again .. another miracle story > another drama queen. what a bunch of crap. > and oh, please, a "slimming expert" .. <snort
> "Rob Duncan" <robdun…@gbronline.com> wrote in message > news:1IqdnQRD2IlvHMfdRVn-gQ@gbronline.com… > What a load of crap. > Rob > (thanks as always, for posting it though.) > "Cowboy" <msbucka…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:405a5a7a@news.zianet.com… >> Copyright 2004 EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS >> The Express >> March 18, 2004 >> EXPRESS WOMAN; MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER >> MOIRA HOLDEN >> Linda Wood, the new slimming expert who appeared on ITV ’s Trisha (left) > for >> the first time yesterday, was told by doctors that all she could expect > from >> life was to be alone and in a wheelchair. She tells MOIRA HOLDEN how she >> proved them wrong and became a life coach WITH three weeks to go before > her >> wedding 17 years ago doctors told Linda Wood she had multiple sclerosis. > She >> was only 21 but suddenly she felt she no longer had a future. >> Linda says: "The doctor told me, ‘Go home and really make the most of >> your >> life now because you will inevitably end up in a wheelchair. Probably it >> would be best if you didn’t have children because it can make the MS >> worse’." >> Linda’s fiance, Michael, was working away from home as a carpenter. As >> she >> and her dad hugged and cried, it was her mum who phoned Michael to tell > him >> about his wife-to-be’s incurable illness. "I told him he didn’t have to >> marry me, " says Linda, "but he still wanted to so we focused on the >> wedding, putting everything else to one side to enjoy the day." >> After her devastating diagnosis Linda tackled her dieting problems. Deep >> down she still feels the MS may have been caused by overdoing weight >> loss >> and exercise. She had started dieting at 18 when she weighed 11st 7lb at > 5ft >> 2in and reckoned she was three stone overweight. >> "I started limiting myself to 1,000 calories a day but this was wrong >> because it’s the minimum amount you should have. I would never tell my >> clients to do that." >> Linda, now 38, says her desire to lose weight became an obsession and >> she >> exercised twice a day to Jane Fonda’s workout. >> When she got pins and needles in her feet she initially thought she had >> pulled a muscle. Then the pains began to travel up her legs. These were > the >> first symptoms of MS. >> "If I hadn’t got MS I might have developed an eating disorder, " she >> says. >> "My body was undernourished yet overworked and it had an impact on my >> nervous system. After the diagnosis I reached a proper balance." >> Linda started her own weight-loss classes and became a consultant for >> Slimmer magazine. She also trained in reiki, hypnotherapy, reflexology, >> massage and life coaching. >> After five years, she and Michael separated and Linda took a job in > training >> and administration where she then met Ashley, 46, who was a management >> development consultant. >> THEY married and Linda gave birth to Zoe, now seven. She paid little >> heed > to >> the doctors’ warning not to have children. "I wasn’t going to let it >> have > a >> veto over what I did, " she says. "I knew intuitively I’d be OK." >> Linda’s type of MS causes occasional attacks, mainly in her legs, and >> then >> she goes into remission. She uses visualisation techniques to help her >> through bad bouts. "It’s never stopped me doing anything with Zoe, " she >> says. >> Linda is bursting with health and no one would guess she has an >> incurable >> disease. >> "If you think life has dealt you a bad hand you will play a bad hand, " > she >> says, "but you can turn anything around and have a great life if you >> want >> to." >> Linda’s career is flourishing. She founded her own business, Core >> connectioN, based in Welwyn Garden City, Herts, and now appears as a >> slimming expert on Trisha. >> She has produced A Helping Hand – a 55-card deck filled with advice and >> motivational tips to help slimmers. She says: "For many people weight >> loss >> is a never-ending battle and I have created a way to balance my life and >> eating habits. I often felt I didn’t fit into life when I was younger. >> MS >> was the best thing that could have happened to me because it was a kick >> up >> the bum from the universe. >> "I needed it to get me on to the path I should have been on. Life is for >> living – it can be what you make it." >> — >> For this and many more articles, see Paul Jones’ website at >> http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/
– Using M2, Opera’s revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Response:
Copyright 2004 EXPRESS NEWSPAPERS The Express March 18, 2004 EXPRESS WOMAN; MS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER MOIRA HOLDEN Linda Wood, the new slimming expert who appeared on ITV ’s Trisha (left) for the first time yesterday, was told by doctors that all she could expect from life was to be alone and in a wheelchair. She tells MOIRA HOLDEN how she proved them wrong and became a life coach WITH three weeks to go before her wedding 17 years ago doctors told Linda Wood she had multiple sclerosis. She was only 21 but suddenly she felt she no longer had a future. Linda says: "The doctor told me, ‘Go home and really make the most of your life now because you will inevitably end up in a wheelchair. Probably it would be best if you didn’t have children because it can make the MS worse’." Linda’s fiance, Michael, was working away from home as a carpenter. As she and her dad hugged and cried, it was her mum who phoned Michael to tell him about his wife-to-be’s incurable illness. "I told him he didn’t have to marry me, " says Linda, "but he still wanted to so we focused on the wedding, putting everything else to one side to enjoy the day." After her devastating diagnosis Linda tackled her dieting problems. Deep down she still feels the MS may have been caused by overdoing weight loss and exercise. She had started dieting at 18 when she weighed 11st 7lb at 5ft 2in and reckoned she was three stone overweight. "I started limiting myself to 1,000 calories a day but this was wrong because it’s the minimum amount you should have. I would never tell my clients to do that." Linda, now 38, says her desire to lose weight became an obsession and she exercised twice a day to Jane Fonda’s workout. When she got pins and needles in her feet she initially thought she had pulled a muscle. Then the pains began to travel up her legs. These were the first symptoms of MS. "If I hadn’t got MS I might have developed an eating disorder, " she says. "My body was undernourished yet overworked and it had an impact on my nervous system. After the diagnosis I reached a proper balance." Linda started her own weight-loss classes and became a consultant for Slimmer magazine. She also trained in reiki, hypnotherapy, reflexology, massage and life coaching. After five years, she and Michael separated and Linda took a job in training and administration where she then met Ashley, 46, who was a management development consultant. THEY married and Linda gave birth to Zoe, now seven. She paid little heed to the doctors’ warning not to have children. "I wasn’t going to let it have a veto over what I did, " she says. "I knew intuitively I’d be OK." Linda’s type of MS causes occasional attacks, mainly in her legs, and then she goes into remission. She uses visualisation techniques to help her through bad bouts. "It’s never stopped me doing anything with Zoe, " she says. Linda is bursting with health and no one would guess she has an incurable disease. "If you think life has dealt you a bad hand you will play a bad hand, " she says, "but you can turn anything around and have a great life if you want to." Linda’s career is flourishing. She founded her own business, Core connectioN, based in Welwyn Garden City, Herts, and now appears as a slimming expert on Trisha. She has produced A Helping Hand – a 55-card deck filled with advice and motivational tips to help slimmers. She says: "For many people weight loss is a never-ending battle and I have created a way to balance my life and eating habits. I often felt I didn’t fit into life when I was younger. MS was the best thing that could have happened to me because it was a kick up the bum from the universe. "I needed it to get me on to the path I should have been on. Life is for living – it can be what you make it." — For this and many more articles, see Paul Jones’ website at http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/
Response:
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
Abilify – at 9 months vision degradation too
Question:
Ozzy Osbourne ‘Stopped Breathing’ in Accident Reuters Friday, December 12, 2003; 1:12 AM LONDON (Reuters) – British rocker Ozzy Osbourne stopped breathing after his quad bike accident earlier this week and had to be revived by a security guard, his wife Sharon said in an interview published on Friday. "He had stopped breathing for a minute and a half and there was no pulse," Sharon Osbourne told the Daily Mirror. "But thank God the security guard was there to revive him. He resuscitated him and got him breathing and his pulse going again," she said. Osbourne, 55, is on a hospital ventilator after he fell off his all-terrain bike at his English country estate, fracturing eight ribs and a vertebra in his neck. "He has got such horrendous injuries to his body. His whole body is traumatized," said Osbourne’s wife. Former Black Sabbath singer Osbourne, who has mellowed from wild man of heavy rock to comical much-loved star of his reality TV series "The Osbournes," underwent emergency surgery following the crash. "The doctors are hoping there hasn’t been any lasting damage but until Ozzy can actually come round and get off the ventilator and talk then will they know," Sharon Osbourne added.
Response:
Sorry, but the spokesman is named Dick Jack? That’s too funny. Miki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cymbal Man Freq. wrote:
Osbourne Resting After Emergency Surgery Associated Press Ozzy Osbourne fractured several bones including a neck vertebra in an all-terrain vehicle accident but the injuries are "not a major problem," a doctor said Tuesday. Osbourne, 55, was "stable and comfortable" after emergency surgery that restored the flow to a blood vessel damaged in Monday’s accident, said Dr. Dick Jack, the medical director at Wexham Park Hospital in Slough, west of London. "When he was admitted, he had a fractured left collarbone, he had some damage to the blood vessel that is underneath it, he had eight fractured ribs on the left side and, in addition to that, an entirely stable fracture to one of the vertebrae in his neck," Jack said. "This is not a major problem." He said doctors planned to reassess Osbourne’s condition later Tuesday morning. Osbourne sustained the injuries while riding a quad bike, or all-terrain vehicle, on his Buckinghamshire property in southern England. His U.S.-based publicist Cindy Guagenti said the singer was taking a day off from promoting the British release of "Changes," a duet with his daughter, Kelly, when the accident occurred. The song is a likely contender for the Christmas No. 1 spot in Britain’s singles charts
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
Where is this marriage going?
Question:
aln…@hotmail.com (alnoid) writes: Roger said: "But consider: If she had been injured in an accident and was paralyzed would you leave her under those circumstances?" I think about that a lot. No, I would not leave her under those circumstances. And I believe that depression is an illness akin to the others you’ve mentioned. And this is a strong argument to stick with her "no matter what".
———————— I also wrote that it doesn’t mean you should place his own health or his daughter’s well-being in jeopardy. Since the daughter seems fine, perhaps protect yourself better by becoming detached or distant. Putting up a wall is not healthy in a marriage, but its one device used to avoid being overly enmeshed in another person’s illness. You could check out Al-Anon. While its designed for relatives of alcoholics and your wife is not an alcoholic, she displays some of the same dependencies and irrational behaviors that maladjusted personalities have, and their approach could help you to deal with hers. You would find sympathy and support for your plight. [R]
Response:
"Roger B." <rcbl…@bellsouth.net
writes: aln…@hotmail.com (alnoid) writes: Roger said: "But consider: If she had been injured in an accident and was paralyzed would you leave her under those circumstances?" I think about that a lot. No, I would not leave her under those circumstances. And I believe that depression is an illness akin to the others you’ve mentioned. And this is a strong argument to stick with her "no matter what". ———————— I also wrote that it doesn’t mean you should place his own health or his daughter’s well-being in jeopardy. Since the daughter seems fine, perhaps protect yourself better by becoming detached or distant. Putting up a wall is not healthy in a marriage, but its one device used to avoid being overly enmeshed in another person’s illness.
As we often do, at this point we’re probably over-analyzing based on too little data. BUT, I want to point out that the resilience of children does not mean they shouldn’t be protected from toxic situations. Many children will continue to seem "fine" long after grievous damage has begun. So let’s hope that his daughter is indeed fine, and that she remains so. But if I were him, I would stop short of _assuming_ that to be the case. Doug
Response:
aln…@hotmail.com (alnoid) writes:
Allow me to address some of the thoughtful insights that this group has given me! Doug said: Psych drugs are tricky. Some people do find stable medication, but it often takes a long time and is hard. Some people never do. We’ve tried several – probably a few dozen drugs. From adderall to lithium, zoloft, tegratol, paxil, and dozens of less common ones that I cannot pronounce. She’s been diagnosed with PTSD, Manic Depression, and OCD . . . just
All of these are harder to treat with drugs than ordinary depression.
depending on the doctor and what he feels like prescribing. The current Dr. (which she agrees with) says most of the trouble stems from PTSD, but has used drugs from all categories to control it (or "see what happens"). PTSD daignosis’ stem from sexual abuse as a child, both from a sibling and her mother. Maybe this is why sex is "disgusting"? But it sure wasn’t disgusting *before* we got married!
That isn’t as surprising as it seems. As the level of intimacy (I don’t mean exclusively sexual) in a relationship ramps up, you bump harder into family-of-origin issues. Also, as the stakes of losing the person increase, people often push away in an attempt to make it safer for themselves when they _do_ lose the person. Needless to say, neither of these are conscious responses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
You (or your wife) could try to find a new counselor. Does your wife have any other proposals for improving the situation since she is refusing to go to counseling? We’ve gone to three now, all with the same results. When we go to the counselor, I lay it on the line and tell it straight. I hold my wife’s hand, compliment her frequently, tell her that I love her, but at the same time, I don’t sugarcoat the situation. My wife doesn’t like to hear how I really feel. So counselor’s aren’t helping much . . . Roger said: But consider: If she had been injured in an accident and was paralyzed would you leave her under those circumstances? IMHO, you owe her some loyalty (remember the "in sickness and in health" stuff). I think about that a lot. No, I would not leave her under those circumstances. And I believe that depression is an illness akin to the others you’ve mentioned. And this is a strong argument to stick with her "no matter what".
It is a strong argument. But I claim that mental illness is not on the same scale. The potential harm to you and your child is far greater than with someone who has a physical illness or an accident. A physical problem often involves some sort of loss, but it doesn’t usually come with the same level of toxicity.
snip
Doug
Response:
Doug Anderson (ethelthe…@yahoo.com) wrote:
In the case of my roughest patch, "giving 110%" was actually counterproductive, and was essentially enabling the roughness to continue indefinitely. I would have been better off (and so would my wife have been) had I "drawn a line in the sand" sooner than I did.
Fair enough. We have different things to say, different perspectives and voices here. I’m glad of that, because my message isn’t enough to meet all the needs here. It’s a benefit of usenet that we have different advice to offer. (Or are we being evil… hmmm, I’ll have to think on that.)
Yes. So the point is, when there are problems you work them out. When you can’t work them out you get help. If you still can’t work them out, or if your spouse doesn’t agree that there are problems in spite of the fact that you are unhappy, you really have three choices: change what you want, leave, or stay in a situation that makes you unhappy. I think the third choice is not only the opposite of life-affirming, but is a poor role model for children.
I agree, Doug. That’s why I didn’t tell this OP to save his marriage at all costs. I’m worried that his wife will NEVER be able to pull her weight as a spouse, because of mental illness, poor upbringing, drug addiction, etc. I’m not sure how to get her to grow up, but I think it’s possible that she gets to be dependent because her husband enables her. OTOH, it might just be an over-reaction to a man who’s facing normal toddler-year difficulties. If there is a hope that the woman can be a grown-up wife than I’d tell him to stick by her in whatever way will most help her become the partner he needs.
Well, I’ve been reading (some large percentage) of CJ’s posts for a while. I don’t think he tells people to bail very often.
Well, he frequently doesn’t. He’s very kind to Jaccy, for instance. (Now there’s a case where I say BAIL!) But when he does, I pop in and argue about it. We’ve all got our roles to play, right? :-)
Again, for example, in my case I don’t think my marriage would ever have improved if I hadn’t reached the point where I understood that I was ready to leave it if we couldn’t improve it.
I think it’s great that you share this perspective. Wendy
Response:
Allow me to address some of the thoughtful insights that this group has given me! Doug said:
Psych drugs are tricky. Some people do find stable medication, but it often takes a long time and is hard. Some people never do.
We’ve tried several – probably a few dozen drugs. From adderall to lithium, zoloft, tegratol, paxil, and dozens of less common ones that I cannot pronounce. She’s been diagnosed with PTSD, Manic Depression, and OCD . . . just depending on the doctor and what he feels like prescribing. The current Dr. (which she agrees with) says most of the trouble stems from PTSD, but has used drugs from all categories to control it (or "see what happens"). PTSD daignosis’ stem from sexual abuse as a child, both from a sibling and her mother. Maybe this is why sex is "disgusting"? But it sure wasn’t disgusting *before* we got married!
You (or your wife) could try to find a new counselor. Does your wife have any other proposals for improving the situation since she is refusing to go to counseling?
We’ve gone to three now, all with the same results. When we go to the counselor, I lay it on the line and tell it straight. I hold my wife’s hand, compliment her frequently, tell her that I love her, but at the same time, I don’t sugarcoat the situation. My wife doesn’t like to hear how I really feel. So counselor’s aren’t helping much . . . Roger said:
But consider: If she had been injured in an accident and was paralyzed would you leave her under those circumstances? IMHO, you owe her some loyalty (remember the "in sickness and in health" stuff).
I think about that a lot. No, I would not leave her under those circumstances. And I believe that depression is an illness akin to the others you’ve mentioned. And this is a strong argument to stick with her "no matter what". Right now I feel love and concern because I really do love my wife, but a great deal of animosity too. I look forward to times when my wife really *is* sick (Flu or something), because she’s easier to handle. I can support her in bed, bring her books and movies, bring her food, read to her and our daughter to keep her company, etc. And the house stays clean, because she’s not around to mess it up, and she can’t get up to yell at me! Jasmine said:
If you have been married for three years, this did not just happen over night and you did not just find out about it so why have you taken so long to seek advice over it?
Actually I’ve been married for SIX years, and have a three year old daughter. I’ve been seeking help from various avenues for most of our marriage – but only recently on the internet. The psychiatrists kept us hoping for several years, and the drugs change things a little here, and a little there, with no long term solutions or changes to the situation. The counselors say they’ll help, so we tried that for a year . . . anyway, I’m just reluctant to give up. I’ve been reading a lot of books about it lately. Early in our marriage before we had a kid, my wife was just getting out of bed when I got home from work. There would be messes all through the house from everywhere she had been during the day. And she did not shower regularly either. Stupidly, I thought having a kid would give her some purpose in life, and help her get out of bed, ready to face the day. Well, it does get her out of bed so she can feed our daughter. But she still doesn’t shower until after I get home from work. She reads or plays on the computer while my daughter wanders around the house, bored. She’s not in danger, but she’s probably under-stimulated, and watching way too much TV. I love my daughter, but it was a stupid thing for me to think kids would help my wife. And now she’s the primary driving force keeping us together.
I can’t help with the sex thing. Maybe a child-free night with no stress could help that situation.
Hmmm . . . hasn’t worked on the last several anniversaries, in fact it’s the #1 show stopper. If I *plan* a romantic evening, she thinks I expect sex, and it’s a pressure thing. She thinks I expect her to perform. There is no surer way of NOT getting lucky for me . . . 
I can tell you that a person who has this kind of problem is perfectly aware they are failing their families, and they are dissing themselves over it too every single day. They would like to be ‘normal’ like everyone else but just can’t do it. Maybe for a while they can. Is she manic/depressive?
She does a good job in intervals. Sometimes she keeps things going for as long as a week or two, but reverts back again. She *is* aware of the failures, and she apologizes for them all the time. She says she doesn’t understand why I’m still with her after what she’s done. So then I expect her to change . . . but no . . . She’s been diagnosed as manic/depressive, as I mentioned earlier. But no more often than any other diagnosis, and I don’t know how accurate any of them are?! Wendy said:
I don’t know how to teach her to succeed at what she tries to do. It occurs to me that maybe she could start a regular exercise program and start to learn how to handle her OWN body’s needs, just as a baby step.
Ya, we’ve tried that. I talked her in to going to the gym with me, and she did for about a month. And it was a good month! She got up, showered, took the kid to the sitter at the gym, and got good exercise. And she was in a good mood. But it didn’t last. She’s done several other similar things: aerobics classes, cake decorating lessons, or just anything to get her out of the house. She volunteered at a local grade school helping kids learn to read for a couple of months, which was great! Her behavior at home was much improved during these times too. But they are all short lived. The-Trainers said:
Oh? What "purpose"?
Well, it’s silly of me to say that I was lonely at 20. But my parents had all moved away, and I didn’t have many friends. I dated a bit, but never felt the urge to get involved with anybody until my wife. So: that was the purpose. It felt good to be wanted and needed I guess. So anyway, I asked for help and you guys are giving me good insight. Thanks for the honest support – I expect at least 50% of postings to newsgroups to be responded with flames and hate, but you guys are being earnest. Thanks! I don’t mean to refute any of your suggestions with these replies. You’ve given me ideas, and I will pursue them. But . . . to keep the ideas moving, I’m trying to reply where I think it’s relevant too. Signing out, Al.
Response:
wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) writes:
Doug Anderson (ethelthe…@yahoo.com) wrote: In the case of my roughest patch, "giving 110%" was actually counterproductive, and was essentially enabling the roughness to continue indefinitely. I would have been better off (and so would my wife have been) had I "drawn a line in the sand" sooner than I did. Fair enough. We have different things to say, different perspectives and voices here. I’m glad of that, because my message isn’t enough to meet all the needs here. It’s a benefit of usenet that we have different advice to offer. (Or are we being evil… hmmm, I’ll have to think on that.)
Very evil, no doubt! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Yes. So the point is, when there are problems you work them out. When you can’t work them out you get help. If you still can’t work them out, or if your spouse doesn’t agree that there are problems in spite of the fact that you are unhappy, you really have three choices: change what you want, leave, or stay in a situation that makes you unhappy. I think the third choice is not only the opposite of life-affirming, but is a poor role model for children. I agree, Doug. That’s why I didn’t tell this OP to save his marriage at all costs. I’m worried that his wife will NEVER be able to pull her weight as a spouse, because of mental illness, poor upbringing, drug addiction, etc. I’m not sure how to get her to grow up, but I think it’s possible that she gets to be dependent because her husband enables her. OTOH, it might just be an over-reaction to a man who’s facing normal toddler-year difficulties. If there is a hope that the woman can be a grown-up wife than I’d tell him to stick by her in whatever way will most help her become the partner he needs.
And they are also both quite young. So growing up is imaginable. Still, the wife sounds genuinely mentally ill if one accepts the poster’s account, and the difficulty of living with mental illness (for both spouse and child) is not to be underestimated. Someone said something to the effect that you don’t abandon a loved one just because they are ill. I think that should be true, but at the same time one has to prioritize. If the illness is going to damage you and your children, and you can’t actually _help_ the person who is ill, then sometimes separating is the correct thing to do.
Well, I’ve been reading (some large percentage) of CJ’s posts for a while. I don’t think he tells people to bail very often. Well, he frequently doesn’t. He’s very kind to Jaccy, for instance. (Now there’s a case where I say BAIL!) But when he does, I pop in and argue about it.
(Yeah, we _all_ say bail to Jaccy.)
We’ve all got our roles to play, right? :-) Again, for example, in my case I don’t think my marriage would ever have improved if I hadn’t reached the point where I understood that I was ready to leave it if we couldn’t improve it. I think it’s great that you share this perspective.
Thanks. Though whenever I think about this, I kick myself for taking so long. On the other hand, it occurs to me that maybe the reason it took so long was that my kids had to reach a certain age before I was really prepared to consider ending the marriage. Doug
Response:
CJMorgan59 (cjmorga…@aol.com) wrote:
As for "the hell with your personal obligations and ties," I’m don’t encourage folks just to stay married just for the sake of duty or obligation. When this is the only thing holding a person to their marriage, the commitment by it’s very nature will be a shallow one, and the person involve will quite likely be insensitive to their spouse subtle, yet often most important needs.
I think the main distinction here is that sometimes the ONLY thing holding a marriage together through a rough patch is duty or obligation, i.e., the vows the people made to each other. I’m here to tell people that marriages HAVE rough patches and you can work through them and come out the other side more in love, more compatible, with a better life than if you just bail when the going gets tough.
I am, however, in favor of folks being their marriage by their own free will choice, because then they are not so much driven by expectations of their parents, or their friends, or society as a whole, but rather are internally motivated.
I think it is unrealistic to think that marriage will be meeting your needs continually throughout your life. Sometimes you stay because you’re supposed to stay, and work it out because you’re supposed to work it out, not because it is the easy thing you’re internally motivated to do.
I’m also not an advocate of self-sacrificing martyrs, but instead suggest individuals give of themselves to the point where it leave them feeling good, but not overextend themselves to the point that it simply leaves them feeling frustrated and resentful.
I’m not in favor of self-sacrificing martyrs as a major life choice, but I think sometimes you give 110% in the relationship while your spouse doesn’t, i.e., you overextend yourself and sometimes feel frustrated and resentful and that is NORMAL and PART of marriage. It’s a partnership and not everyone’s needs are being met 100% at any given moment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, etc. But you ought to get your needs met at least SOME of the time.
Hope that’s of some clarification,
It was. I still think you spend too much time counselling people to bail on their marriages when they’ve posted to alt.support.marriage in a rough spot. I see the roll of this newsgroup as supporting marriages, not counselling people to find a better place if they’re unhappy. Wendy
Response:
claresann…@aol.com (AnnieO) wrote in message <news:20030125134320.21442.00000476@mb-mu.aol.com
… You owned your own home at 20 years old?? annie_o
Actually I bought it at 18 – I got lucky during the 90’s tech launch. ‘course, the job market has turned sour, and the fun is over . . . but finances were never something my wife and I disagreed on. We’re both pretty frugal.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) writes:
CJMorgan59 (cjmorga…@aol.com) wrote: As for "the hell with your personal obligations and ties," I’m don’t encourage folks just to stay married just for the sake of duty or obligation. When this is the only thing holding a person to their marriage, the commitment by it’s very nature will be a shallow one, and the person involve will quite likely be insensitive to their spouse subtle, yet often most important needs. I think the main distinction here is that sometimes the ONLY thing holding a marriage together through a rough patch is duty or obligation, i.e., the vows the people made to each other. I’m here to tell people that marriages HAVE rough patches and you can work through them and come out the other side more in love, more compatible, with a better life than if you just bail when the going gets tough.
Well, I think most people here (not all, but I bet CJ) would agree with this statement. On the other hand, some of us might differ on tactic in getting out the other side of the rough patch. In the case of my roughest patch, "giving 110%" was actually counterproductive, and was essentially enabling the roughness to continue indefinitely. I would have been better off (and so would my wife have been) had I "drawn a line in the sand" sooner than I did.
I am, however, in favor of folks being their marriage by their own free will choice, because then they are not so much driven by expectations of their parents, or their friends, or society as a whole, but rather are internally motivated. I think it is unrealistic to think that marriage will be meeting your needs continually throughout your life. Sometimes you stay because you’re supposed to stay, and work it out because you’re supposed to work it out, not because it is the easy thing you’re internally motivated to do.
Yes. So the point is, when there are problems you work them out. When you can’t work them out you get help. If you still can’t work them out, or if your spouse doesn’t agree that there are problems in spite of the fact that you are unhappy, you really have three choices: change what you want, leave, or stay in a situation that makes you unhappy. I think the third choice is not only the opposite of life-affirming, but is a poor role model for children. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
I’m also not an advocate of self-sacrificing martyrs, but instead suggest individuals give of themselves to the point where it leave them feeling good, but not overextend themselves to the point that it simply leaves them feeling frustrated and resentful. I’m not in favor of self-sacrificing martyrs as a major life choice, but I think sometimes you give 110% in the relationship while your spouse doesn’t, i.e., you overextend yourself and sometimes feel frustrated and resentful and that is NORMAL and PART of marriage. It’s a partnership and not everyone’s needs are being met 100% at any given moment. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, etc. But you ought to get your needs met at least SOME of the time. Hope that’s of some clarification, It was. I still think you spend too much time counselling people to bail on their marriages when they’ve posted to alt.support.marriage in a rough spot. I see the roll of this newsgroup as supporting marriages, not counselling people to find a better place if they’re unhappy.
Well, I’ve been reading (some large percentage) of CJ’s posts for a while. I don’t think he tells people to bail very often. I think he _does_ tell people to set limits. In a number of situations the only effective way to set limits is to have an alternative if the people with whom you are setting limits refuse to try to come to terms with you. Again, for example, in my case I don’t think my marriage would ever have improved if I hadn’t reached the point where I understood that I was ready to leave it if we couldn’t improve it. Doug
Response:
wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) wrote:
CJ, why on earth do you post in alt.SUPPORT.marriage?
To be of help. ********
It seems like every post I read from you says you have to follow your own bliss, the hell with your personal obligations and ties.
Then perhaps you need to read more of my posts, or read them more carefully. Or not. Your choice. With regard to "following one’s own bliss", yeah I’m all for encouraging folks to do that. But I don’t see that as necessarily being incompatible with married life. Indeed, married life is an integrated part of that. As for "the hell with your personal obligations and ties," I’m don’t encourage folks just to stay married just for the sake of duty or obligation. When this is the only thing holding a person to their marriage, the commitment by it’s very nature will be a shallow one, and the person involve will quite likely be insensitive to their spouse subtle, yet often most important needs. I am, however, in favor of folks being their marriage by their own free will choice, because then they are not so much driven by expectations of their parents, or their friends, or society as a whole, but rather are internally motivated. I’m also not an advocate of self-sacrificing martyrs, but instead suggest individuals give of themselves to the point where it leave them feeling good, but not overextend themselves to the point that it simply leaves them feeling frustrated and resentful. And I sure many here will tell you — because they certainly like to poke fun at it every once in a while — I’m a fairly big advocate about establishing limits and boundaries. You might not agree with my view, and that’s fine. But they are nevertheless the product of some good hard knocks experiences, a lot of heart rendering soul searching, some reading, and a good number of years of being challenged in therapy. In short, they are, for the most part, not thoughts just casually off the top of my head, but rather carefully constructed over considerable time. *************
Is that really the guiding light by which you live your life?
I’d like to believe that I’m daily practicing what I preach, as it were, and that what I say isn’t just something which sounds good on paper, but rather has me trying to put myself in the shoes of the person I’m addressing, and then drawing on my experience, sharing with them what I might do in their situation, or trying to convey a message which might be practical and realistic (or as best I can manage to do so). But as I think I said to you in some other post, if you think what I’m at all putting forth some is the encouragement towards some kind of hedonistic lifestyle, that perception would certainly be quite off the mark. Hope that’s of some clarification, CJ
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) writes:
Doug Anderson (ethelthe…@yahoo.com) wrote: wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) writes: CJ, why on earth do you post in alt.SUPPORT.marriage? It seems like every post I read from you says you have to follow your own bliss, the hell with your personal obligations and ties. Is that really the guiding light by which you live your life? Methinks you should read CJ’s posts more carefully, maybe over a longer period of time. He’s one of the more supportive people (in the real sense of the word) here. Well, I think he’s a nice enough guy, but I do find myself arguing directly with his posts more than anyone else here. (Granted, there are a few killfiled people I don’t read.)
Yeah, OK. I often disagree with him too (more often I just can’t finish reading what he wrote). But more to the point, I don’t think he lives his life around hedonism, nor does he guide others to that. I _do_ think he realizes that for a marriage to work in the long run, both partners have to be getting some satisfaction out of it.
I am not in favor of this guy killing himself to keep this family together, but I wouldn’t suggest he should leave just because it brings him down and bums him out! What _would_ you suggest? I posted in this thread already. I’m a bit at a loss for how to handle this, but my hope is that some old-fashioned "growing up" will help this woman.
That would be nice. The best way that he could help this woman to grow up, however, might be to separate himself and his children from her.
Sadly, if that isn’t possible, I’d see him consider finding a mate that can be an actual partner to him and help him raise his daughter in a safer environment. But the reason for leaving her wouldn’t be because she drags him down, it’d be because they can’t be partners in any meaningful way.
I’m not sure if you and CJ are really saying anything different then.
Response:
wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) writes:
CJMorgan59 (cjmorga…@aol.com) wrote: Rather than a consideration of what normal or not, you might want to review your situation from the perspective of whether it’s long term helping your spirit grow, or otherwise whether it seems it might just be erroding away. CJ, why on earth do you post in alt.SUPPORT.marriage? It seems like every post I read from you says you have to follow your own bliss, the hell with your personal obligations and ties. Is that really the guiding light by which you live your life?
Methinks you should read CJ’s posts more carefully, maybe over a longer period of time. He’s one of the more supportive people (in the real sense of the word) here. I don’t think telling people to just suck it up and reconcile themselves to being unhappy is a very practical way to support marriages. People mostly just won’t do this. Those who do will make themselves, their spouses and probably their children miserable.
I am not in favor of this guy killing himself to keep this family together, but I wouldn’t suggest he should leave just because it brings him down and bums him out!
What _would_ you suggest?
Response:
Doug Anderson (ethelthe…@yahoo.com) wrote:
wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) writes: CJ, why on earth do you post in alt.SUPPORT.marriage? It seems like every post I read from you says you have to follow your own bliss, the hell with your personal obligations and ties. Is that really the guiding light by which you live your life? Methinks you should read CJ’s posts more carefully, maybe over a longer period of time. He’s one of the more supportive people (in the real sense of the word) here.
Well, I think he’s a nice enough guy, but I do find myself arguing directly with his posts more than anyone else here. (Granted, there are a few killfiled people I don’t read.)
I am not in favor of this guy killing himself to keep this family together, but I wouldn’t suggest he should leave just because it brings him down and bums him out! What _would_ you suggest?
I posted in this thread already. I’m a bit at a loss for how to handle this, but my hope is that some old-fashioned "growing up" will help this woman. Sadly, if that isn’t possible, I’d see him consider finding a mate that can be an actual partner to him and help him raise his daughter in a safer environment. But the reason for leaving her wouldn’t be because she drags him down, it’d be because they can’t be partners in any meaningful way. Wendy
Response:
aln…@hotmail.com (alnoid) wrote:
Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not.
Rather than a consideration of what normal or not, you might want to review your situation from the perspective of whether it’s long term helping your spirit grow, or otherwise whether it seems it might just be erroding away. Just a thought. CJ
Response:
Well, if you loved her and felt that by marrying her you had a purpose, then I think you got more then you bargained for. The 17 years she was raised in a broken home will take at least that long to work out of her system without some serious medical attention and from the sounds of it you have been there without any results. I think that by removing yourself and your daughter from the situation you will be better off. If you don’t feel that your wife could raise her on her own, I don’t understand how you feel babysitting the situation makes things okay. Certainly her behavior at home puts added stress on your work life and because you are your family’s sole provider, this is unnecessary stress. I think it is important to understand at what point you need to realize that things will not improve. Make a list of pros and cons. Detail what positive things your wife contributes to your relationship. Which side outweighs the other? I give you a world of credit though because just reading your posting frusterates me.I couldn’t imagine living it. Best of luck. "alnoid" <aln…@hotmail.com
wrote in message
news:b865069e.0301250946.17b98105@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
I’m worried about my marriage, and hoping that the anonymity of this forum will help me express my feelings, and receive honest answers. I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter. History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20. She came from a "broken" home, and never had a dad. Her home was quite cluttered and un-cared for. Most of her siblings are still fighting drug abuse and such today. Since age 12 my wife had been in and out of suicide and drug abuse rehab centers as well. She was often quite depressed and self-destructive. None of that mattered when we met, nor was is apparant to me. She seemed competent, down-to-earth, and fun-loving. She adored me, and I made me feel like I had a purpose. She was great! I already owned a nice home and made a decent income, and generally felt like I was an upstanding citizen, so I’m sure the change of lifestyle was appealing for her too. It seems that immediately after we got married (from my perspective), everything changed, and stayed that way. Such as . . . She’s often depressed and irate, and on a slew of drugs to keep her "in check" (legal drugs, of course!). We are on a constant roller-coaster of emotions. For some reason, she can’t find a set of drugs that work, and she always wants to change them. We’ve even done shock therapy, with little success. Without the drugs, she’s very crazy! Often I’ve had to take our daughter to a daycare or babysitter because my wife doesn’t have the demeanor of a mom, and I’m afraid for my kid’s safety when I’m at work away from them (She stays at home, and doesn’t like the workforce). My wife is often angry at me, yells at me, and then cries apologies to me for her behavior. But nothing changes. Next . . . She’s very cluttered and messy. She’s never learned how to pick up after herself, and I do 90% of the housework: dishes, laundry, vacuuming, sweeping, mopping, cleaning the kitchen, making the beds, dusting, ironing, etc., in addition to the typical male roles: repairs, the lawn, changing the oil, etc, and everything that keeps a home a nice place. This is a sore spot, and one that we’ve talked about a lot. Sometimes she promises to do better, and says she knows that she needs to help around the house, but she never sticks to it. She’ll make the bed, then collapse in exhaustion in front of the TV, or reading a book. And . . . dare I mention sex? For six months before we got married, it was every day, and I couldn’t keep up with her! Then on our week long honeymoon, we never had sex. I’ve gone without for a over year and a half, but we usually average about four times a year. She says sex disgusts her, and "why should I if I don’t want to?" That’s not an erotic or inspiring feeling to me . . . I’m physically fit (more than most – but I’m not very old yet!), don’t smoke or anything, so there is nothing along those lines detracting from our physical relationship. It seems that she believes sex is only something you do in the courting stage – not after marraige. We’ve gone to marraige counseling for the past six months, but it’s very expensive, and is not helping us. My wife now refuses to go, saying that the counselor and I just gang up on her and she feels picked on. At this point I feel very discouraged about the marraige. I told my wife that if I left, I’d take my daughter with me – because she certainly couldn’t hande raising a kid without the expensive drugs that my insurance provides. I’m confident that a court would agree with me, as we have a well documented history of her that wouldn’t be condusive to raising a child alone. But I fear taking my wife away from our daughter – they love each other very much (just as I do). Likewise, I refuse to continue in a marraige like this, being the only one who makes any effort to keep the household running. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not. I guess that’s why I’m posting. A bunch of anonymous people here on this newsgroup can hopefully tell me if I’m being stupid, right? Or maybe someone has some encouraging words? Anything?
Response:
CJMorgan59 (cjmorga…@aol.com) wrote:
Rather than a consideration of what normal or not, you might want to review your situation from the perspective of whether it’s long term helping your spirit grow, or otherwise whether it seems it might just be erroding away.
CJ, why on earth do you post in alt.SUPPORT.marriage? It seems like every post I read from you says you have to follow your own bliss, the hell with your personal obligations and ties. Is that really the guiding light by which you live your life? I am not in favor of this guy killing himself to keep this family together, but I wouldn’t suggest he should leave just because it brings him down and bums him out! Wendy
Response:
On 25 Jan 2003, alnoid wrote:
I’m worried about my marriage, and hoping that the anonymity of this forum will help me express my feelings, and receive honest answers.
I suggest you can also get good advice and help from many local sources, if you go looking.
I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter. History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20.
Very difficult ages to begin, strike one.
She came from a "broken" home, and never had a dad.
Strike 2.
Her home was quite cluttered and un-cared for.
Ball one.
Most of her siblings are still fighting drug abuse and such today.
Ball 2.
Since age 12 my wife had been in and out of suicide and drug abuse rehab centers as well. She was often quite depressed and self-destructive.
I would call that strike 3…
None of that mattered when we met, nor was is apparant to me. She seemed competent, down-to-earth, and fun-loving. She adored me, and I made me feel like I had a purpose.
Oh? What "purpose"?
She was great! I already owned a nice home and made a decent income, and generally felt like I was an upstanding citizen, so I’m sure the change of lifestyle was appealing for her too.
Not a good foundation.
It seems that immediately after we got married (from my perspective), everything changed, and stayed that way. Such as . . . She’s often depressed and irate, and on a slew of drugs to keep her "in check" (legal drugs, of course!). We are on a constant roller-coaster of emotions. For some reason, she can’t find a set of drugs that work, and she always wants to change them.
She’s bi-polar, but often doctors don’t figure that out soon enough nor do most know what the hell they are doing in treating a bi-polar. You need to find a real bi-polar expert to treat her and you probably need her to be in a controlled environment for a time to get her used to accepting the meds for the long-term.
We’ve even done shock therapy, with little success. Without the drugs, she’s very crazy! Often I’ve had to take our daughter to a daycare or babysitter because my wife doesn’t have the demeanor of a mom, and I’m afraid for my kid’s safety when I’m at work away from them (She stays at home, and doesn’t like the workforce). My wife is often angry at me, yells at me, and then cries apologies to me for her behavior. But nothing changes.
Yep, you really need a bi-polar expert!
Next . . . She’s very cluttered and messy. She’s never learned how to pick up after herself,
NOT really an important issue in the big-picture.
and I do 90% of the housework: dishes, laundry, vacuuming, sweeping, mopping, cleaning the kitchen, making the beds, dusting, ironing, etc., in addition to the typical male roles: repairs, the lawn, changing the oil, etc, and everything that keeps a home a nice place. This is a sore spot, and one that we’ve talked about a lot. Sometimes she promises to do better, and says she knows that she needs to help around the house, but she never sticks to it. She’ll make the bed, then collapse in exhaustion in front of the TV, or reading a book.
Considering what is going on in her head, that’s no shock, it’s typical.
And . . . dare I mention sex? For six months before we got married, it was every day, and I couldn’t keep up with her! Then on our week long honeymoon, we never had sex. I’ve gone without for a over year and a half, but we usually average about four times a year. She says sex disgusts her, and "why should I if I don’t want to?" That’s not an erotic or inspiring feeling to me . . . I’m physically fit (more than most – but I’m not very old yet!), don’t smoke or anything, so there is nothing along those lines detracting from our physical relationship. It seems that she believes sex is only something you do in the courting stage – not after marraige.
AgaIN, priorities.
We’ve gone to marraige counseling for the past six months, but it’s very expensive, and is not helping us.
It can’t.
My wife now refuses to go, saying that the counselor and I just gang up on her and she feels picked on.
Because deep-down she knows it’s her problem not yours.
At this point I feel very discouraged about the marraige.
As you should.
I told my wife that if I left, I’d take my daughter with me – because
Correct idea.
she certainly couldn’t hande raising a kid without the expensive drugs that my insurance provides. I’m confident that a court would agree with me, as we have a well documented history of her that wouldn’t be condusive to raising a child alone. But I fear taking my wife away from our daughter – they love each other very much (just as I do).
Just don’t refuse visitations, the bond should survive.
Likewise, I refuse to continue in a marraige like this, being the only one who makes any effort to keep the household running.
Again, priorities, get her help from an expert or give up for the sake of your child and your sanity. The housework is a small thing.
Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not. I guess that’s why I’m posting. A bunch of anonymous people here on this newsgroup can hopefully tell me if I’m being stupid, right? Or maybe someone has some encouraging words? Anything?
Yes, odds are she CAN get vastly better, but you got to make the hard choices and either push her hard to get real help or leave her soon. The longer you wait to act the worse things will get. Mike Trainer, Life-long Liberal Democrat Atheist, Gun-owner and VOTER! Gun-owner since the 1994 Clinton gun-ban, VOTER since Carter in 1976, NRA member since Al Gore 51-50 in 1999, GOA member in 2001. Now voting ONLY on the issue of protecting my right to keep and bear arms.
Response:
alnoid <aln…@hotmail.com
wrote: She’s often depressed and irate, and on a slew of drugs to keep her "in check" (legal drugs, of course!). We are on a constant roller-coaster of emotions.
You have my deepest sypathy. How awful. :-( I guess my real question is whether there’s hope that she will stabilize and stop being depressed. I think all the other stuff is caused by her mental illness. You said it yourself – when she wasn’t depressed, she loved sex, and seemed down-to-earth, competent, and fun-loving. If it’s not going to happen – well, I wouldn’t stay. And I wouldn’t leave a shild in that situation either. It is *really* bad for children to be brought up by a depressed mother. This may sound cold, but I don’t see sacrificing yourself and your daughter on the alter of her mental illness, if it’s not going to cure it anyway. And I speak as a person who has *been* depressed.
Response:
alnoid (aln…@hotmail.com) wrote:
I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter.
I’m usually the first person to say, "stick it out through the bad toddler years". Most marriages get work-a-day during this time, sex lives fall off, you start to feel more like co-workers than lovers. This is normal and it passes. But your post is different. You’re dealing with a woman who never grew up. It seems to me that she needs to develop some competencies, because she is failing at everything: being an at-home mother, a member of the workforce, a house-keeper and now as a wife. I don’t know how to teach her to succeed at what she tries to do. It occurs to me that maybe she could start a regular exercise program and start to learn how to handle her OWN body’s needs, just as a baby step. She has to do something that shows adult competency. Otherwise she isn’t a good enough choice as a life-partner for another adult, or a good enough example of a woman to raise a daughter. I can’t tell you what a HUGE departure this post is for me. I seriously hope she’s not as fucked up as you make her sound and that a bit of growing up will cure her! Wendy
Response:
Wow! And I thought I had it bad! My wife also suffers from depression, but not like what you desribed. It’s funny thought a spouce will do all things to get married, but once the contract is signed, there’s not need to work at it anymore. Maybe divorce is good. See a lawyer, see may be using her past and depression as an excuse. Who knows. Good luck "alnoid" <aln…@hotmail.com
wrote in message
news:b865069e.0301250946.17b98105@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
I’m worried about my marriage, and hoping that the anonymity of this forum will help me express my feelings, and receive honest answers. I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter. History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20. She came from a "broken" home, and never had a dad. Her home was quite cluttered and un-cared for. Most of her siblings are still fighting drug abuse and such today. Since age 12 my wife had been in and out of suicide and drug abuse rehab centers as well. She was often quite depressed and self-destructive. None of that mattered when we met, nor was is apparant to me. She seemed competent, down-to-earth, and fun-loving. She adored me, and I made me feel like I had a purpose. She was great! I already owned a nice home and made a decent income, and generally felt like I was an upstanding citizen, so I’m sure the change of lifestyle was appealing for her too. It seems that immediately after we got married (from my perspective), everything changed, and stayed that way. Such as . . . She’s often depressed and irate, and on a slew of drugs to keep her "in check" (legal drugs, of course!). We are on a constant roller-coaster of emotions. For some reason, she can’t find a set of drugs that work, and she always wants to change them. We’ve even done shock therapy, with little success. Without the drugs, she’s very crazy! Often I’ve had to take our daughter to a daycare or babysitter because my wife doesn’t have the demeanor of a mom, and I’m afraid for my kid’s safety when I’m at work away from them (She stays at home, and doesn’t like the workforce). My wife is often angry at me, yells at me, and then cries apologies to me for her behavior. But nothing changes. Next . . . She’s very cluttered and messy. She’s never learned how to pick up after herself, and I do 90% of the housework: dishes, laundry, vacuuming, sweeping, mopping, cleaning the kitchen, making the beds, dusting, ironing, etc., in addition to the typical male roles: repairs, the lawn, changing the oil, etc, and everything that keeps a home a nice place. This is a sore spot, and one that we’ve talked about a lot. Sometimes she promises to do better, and says she knows that she needs to help around the house, but she never sticks to it. She’ll make the bed, then collapse in exhaustion in front of the TV, or reading a book. And . . . dare I mention sex? For six months before we got married, it was every day, and I couldn’t keep up with her! Then on our week long honeymoon, we never had sex. I’ve gone without for a over year and a half, but we usually average about four times a year. She says sex disgusts her, and "why should I if I don’t want to?" That’s not an erotic or inspiring feeling to me . . . I’m physically fit (more than most – but I’m not very old yet!), don’t smoke or anything, so there is nothing along those lines detracting from our physical relationship. It seems that she believes sex is only something you do in the courting stage – not after marraige. We’ve gone to marraige counseling for the past six months, but it’s very expensive, and is not helping us. My wife now refuses to go, saying that the counselor and I just gang up on her and she feels picked on. At this point I feel very discouraged about the marraige. I told my wife that if I left, I’d take my daughter with me – because she certainly couldn’t hande raising a kid without the expensive drugs that my insurance provides. I’m confident that a court would agree with me, as we have a well documented history of her that wouldn’t be condusive to raising a child alone. But I fear taking my wife away from our daughter – they love each other very much (just as I do). Likewise, I refuse to continue in a marraige like this, being the only one who makes any effort to keep the household running. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not. I guess that’s why I’m posting. A bunch of anonymous people here on this newsgroup can hopefully tell me if I’m being stupid, right? Or maybe someone has some encouraging words? Anything?
Response:
"alnoid" <aln…@hotmail.com
wrote… I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter. History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20. She came from a "broken" home, and never had a dad. Her home was quite cluttered and un-cared for. Most of her siblings are still fighting drug abuse and such today. Since age 12 my wife had been in and out of suicide and drug abuse rehab centers as well. She was often quite depressed and self-destructive. <snip I refuse to continue in a marraige like this, being the only one who makes any effort to keep the household running. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not. I guess that’s why I’m posting.
————————– You are trying to do the "right thing" by your wife and child, but you’re living with a mentally ill person and feel put upon or even "cheated" by your wife’s illness. Its very natural. But consider: If she had been injured in an accident and was paralyzed would you leave her under those circumstances? IMHO, you owe her some loyalty (remember the "in sickness and in health" stuff). OTOH, you are not required to forsake your own MH, if that’s at risk. Then, there’s a child to think of. Thus, you need to consider what’s in the best interest of the child… do you stick with an unhealthy marriage for the sake of the child, or is this environment unhealthy for the child? From what I can glean, the child is not in danger and is benefiting from her relationship with her mother. So, IMHO, the principal issue is: Can you redefine you marriage in such a way as to preserve the child’s relationship with her mother, yet preserve your own sanity. You may simply be too enmeshed in her life and her problems. Could you see yourself more as a person who merely shares a home with this woman, and not as her caretaker? I have a brother who has 2 daughters — 3 & 5 — and he has confided in me that he loves his kids more than he cares for his wife. He sees her as something of a freeloader who seems to spend her days doing little more than thinking up ways to spend money. But he says that he will stay married because the home he has made is for them, and he will do nothing to disturb their happiness. [Roger]
Response:
From: aln…@hotmail.com (alnoid) History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20. I already owned a nice home and made a decent income, and generally felt like I was an upstanding citizen,
You owned your own home at 20 years old?? annie_o
Response:
You need to do as much research into mental illness as you can and also to realize that nobody asks for this kind of thing. Seems like a lot of people think mental illness is a choice, that a person just chooses to be hard to get along with, or moody or whatever the symptoms may be. All of the things you mention are symptoms of depression and some maybe are related to whatever her condition is. If you have been married for three years, this did not just happen over night and you did not just find out about it so why have you taken so long to seek advice over it? If her counselor isn’t helping her, find her a new one. Better yet, I don’t think those counselors are worth the money, the medications are what will help her to return to normal, she can talk all day and it won’t help if she’s suffering from some chemical imbalance of her brain. When our loved ones need help, then we help them. We do not start to look the other way or consider tossing them aside because they are not perfect. What if this happened to you? Then you’d surely hope your loved one would take care of you. Put the child in nursery (daycare) and hire somebody to come and clean your house if you can afford it. Get your wife on disability for her condition, then she can have an ‘income’. If you leave and take the child away, then you are seriously going to jeopardize her mental condition. If the child is all that is keeping her going, it will be very bad. Don’t have any more kids though if she is this bad, it would not be a good idea for you. I can’t help with the sex thing. Maybe a child-free night with no stress could help that situation. I can tell you that a person who has this kind of problem is perfectly aware they are failing their families, and they are dissing themselves over it too every single day. They would like to be ‘normal’ like everyone else but just can’t do it. Maybe for a while they can. Is she manic/depressive? And if all else fails and you just can’t cope with this kind of situation, maybe all three of you would be better off separated. Best of luck, I know it is hard.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -aln…@hotmail.com (alnoid) writes:
I’m worried about my marriage, and hoping that the anonymity of this forum will help me express my feelings, and receive honest answers. I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter. History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20. She came from a "broken" home, and never had a dad. Her home was quite cluttered and un-cared for. Most of her siblings are still fighting drug abuse and such today. Since age 12 my wife had been in and out of suicide and drug abuse rehab centers as well. She was often quite depressed and self-destructive. None of that mattered when we met, nor was is apparant to me. She seemed competent, down-to-earth, and fun-loving. She adored me, and I made me feel like I had a purpose. She was great! I already owned a nice home and made a decent income, and generally felt like I was an upstanding citizen, so I’m sure the change of lifestyle was appealing for her too. It seems that immediately after we got married (from my perspective), everything changed, and stayed that way. Such as . . . She’s often depressed and irate, and on a slew of drugs to keep her "in check" (legal drugs, of course!). We are on a constant roller-coaster of emotions. For some reason, she can’t find a set of drugs that work, and she always wants to change them.
Psych drugs are tricky. Some people do find stable medication, but it often takes a long time and is hard. Some people never do.
We’ve even done shock therapy, with little success. Without the drugs, she’s very crazy! Often I’ve had to take our daughter to a daycare or babysitter because my wife doesn’t have the demeanor of a mom, and I’m afraid for my kid’s safety when I’m at work away from them (She stays at home, and doesn’t like the workforce). My wife is often angry at me, yells at me, and then cries apologies to me for her behavior. But nothing changes. snip We’ve gone to marraige counseling for the past six months, but it’s very expensive, and is not helping us. My wife now refuses to go, saying that the counselor and I just gang up on her and she feels picked on.
You (or your wife) could try to find a new counselor. Does your wife have any other proposals for improving the situation since she is refusing to go to counseling?
At this point I feel very discouraged about the marraige. I told my wife that if I left, I’d take my daughter with me – because she certainly couldn’t hande raising a kid without the expensive drugs that my insurance provides. I’m confident that a court would agree with me, as we have a well documented history of her that wouldn’t be condusive to raising a child alone. But I fear taking my wife away from our daughter – they love each other very much (just as I do). Likewise, I refuse to continue in a marraige like this, being the only one who makes any effort to keep the household running.
I can’t give you any advice, but I’d find your situation intolerable myself, and would be seeing a lawyer. It isn’t your wife’s fault that she is mentally ill, but that is no reason to ruin your life and your daughter’s life.
Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not.
Forget about "normal." I don’t think the situation you are describing is normal, but it doesn’t matter. Is it a situation you like? If not, is it one that you can change, either by changing what you want, or through some other avenue?
I guess that’s why I’m posting. A bunch of anonymous people here on this newsgroup can hopefully tell me if I’m being stupid, right? Or maybe someone has some encouraging words? Anything?
Remember, our advice is worth about what you’ve paid for it. Doug
Response:
I’m worried about my marriage, and hoping that the anonymity of this forum will help me express my feelings, and receive honest answers. I’ve now been married for six years, and I have three-year-old daughter. History: I married my wife when she was 17, I was 20. She came from a "broken" home, and never had a dad. Her home was quite cluttered and un-cared for. Most of her siblings are still fighting drug abuse and such today. Since age 12 my wife had been in and out of suicide and drug abuse rehab centers as well. She was often quite depressed and self-destructive. None of that mattered when we met, nor was is apparant to me. She seemed competent, down-to-earth, and fun-loving. She adored me, and I made me feel like I had a purpose. She was great! I already owned a nice home and made a decent income, and generally felt like I was an upstanding citizen, so I’m sure the change of lifestyle was appealing for her too. It seems that immediately after we got married (from my perspective), everything changed, and stayed that way. Such as . . . She’s often depressed and irate, and on a slew of drugs to keep her "in check" (legal drugs, of course!). We are on a constant roller-coaster of emotions. For some reason, she can’t find a set of drugs that work, and she always wants to change them. We’ve even done shock therapy, with little success. Without the drugs, she’s very crazy! Often I’ve had to take our daughter to a daycare or babysitter because my wife doesn’t have the demeanor of a mom, and I’m afraid for my kid’s safety when I’m at work away from them (She stays at home, and doesn’t like the workforce). My wife is often angry at me, yells at me, and then cries apologies to me for her behavior. But nothing changes. Next . . . She’s very cluttered and messy. She’s never learned how to pick up after herself, and I do 90% of the housework: dishes, laundry, vacuuming, sweeping, mopping, cleaning the kitchen, making the beds, dusting, ironing, etc., in addition to the typical male roles: repairs, the lawn, changing the oil, etc, and everything that keeps a home a nice place. This is a sore spot, and one that we’ve talked about a lot. Sometimes she promises to do better, and says she knows that she needs to help around the house, but she never sticks to it. She’ll make the bed, then collapse in exhaustion in front of the TV, or reading a book. And . . . dare I mention sex? For six months before we got married, it was every day, and I couldn’t keep up with her! Then on our week long honeymoon, we never had sex. I’ve gone without for a over year and a half, but we usually average about four times a year. She says sex disgusts her, and "why should I if I don’t want to?" That’s not an erotic or inspiring feeling to me . . . I’m physically fit (more than most – but I’m not very old yet!), don’t smoke or anything, so there is nothing along those lines detracting from our physical relationship. It seems that she believes sex is only something you do in the courting stage – not after marraige. We’ve gone to marraige counseling for the past six months, but it’s very expensive, and is not helping us. My wife now refuses to go, saying that the counselor and I just gang up on her and she feels picked on. At this point I feel very discouraged about the marraige. I told my wife that if I left, I’d take my daughter with me – because she certainly couldn’t hande raising a kid without the expensive drugs that my insurance provides. I’m confident that a court would agree with me, as we have a well documented history of her that wouldn’t be condusive to raising a child alone. But I fear taking my wife away from our daughter – they love each other very much (just as I do). Likewise, I refuse to continue in a marraige like this, being the only one who makes any effort to keep the household running. Sometimes when you’re in the middle of a situation, it’s hard to see what’s normal, and what’s not. I guess that’s why I’m posting. A bunch of anonymous people here on this newsgroup can hopefully tell me if I’m being stupid, right? Or maybe someone has some encouraging words? Anything?
Response:
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
Legal question re: notifying plasma donation center
Question:
My 2c. If you go after the addict, then you have to go after the medical folks (needle sticks), the blood banks, the tattoo artists, the hospitals for non-sterile equipment, and on and on. We are talking about a virus that is fairly new. No one knew they had it. The entire thought is asinine. David "Ronald v Bosch" <cat…@umassk12.net
wrote in message
news:3cfa317b@oit.umass.edu… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
If I may chip in my 2c worth: …. whatever the law permits is what is politically expedient… I agree that an addict, drugs OR alcohol, is not a rational thinking and acting individual. Could/should they be held responsible? Now that’s a
real
difficult question. The buck has to stop somewhere? My guess is that the best answer would be that yes the addict IS somewhat responsible, even it is only for the sole reason of gaining control over
him
and force him/her to seek treatment. Should they be punished besides that? Maybe they should make reparations to those they have hurt. I don’t know, but I’d like to hear what other think about that question. ron — ====================================================================== Ronald v Bosch Great Falls Massachusetts
Response:
Oh for god’s sakes, Robin, give it a rest. Your issues aren’t legal ones, they’re psychological. Your not the first person to have regrets or beat themselves up. Go spend 40 days in the desert or something because right now you’re looking through a glass strangely. Then take Camilla’s advice – I’m sure she’s been trying to make listen for a long time. BTW, can you write or is there another aspect to your having Camilla do it for you? On Sat, 01 Jun 2002 06:52:48 -0700, Camilla Cracchiolo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<camil…@mindspring.com
wrote: This is my husband’s direct reply. I’m just posting it for him. –Camilla I want to thank everyone for their responses. Please understand, however, that I do not believe I deserve to be forgiven. My intention is only to do the right thing. If the situation were reversed and I were the victim and contracted Hep C from a plasma donation, I’d want to kill the person who gave it to me. I pray that a way can be found to notify people that may have hepatitis given to them by me. ——Robin On Wed, 29 May 2002 01:51:36 -0700, Camilla Cracchiolo <camil…@mindspring.com wrote: Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down
Response:
and you think taking intron a is rational thinking omg man come on, were all addicts here. lol i got so many puncture marks i look like a pin coushion. oh well no matter its just that hep thing ya know? niether waythe dragon knows i’m a comming to kick its ass. so intron a away and off we go. the worst is the cold chills and night sweats, everything else is ok ,except that its a mind over matter and my damn mind doesnt matter. (brainfog) . hey i get to be as crazy as hoof now what a blast. lol lol since hoof is my hep hero . when it gets togh i think about alot of stuff hoof said when he was on the meds,and it helps. oh hoof you were right abot the honesty and the hell with what people think. i took your advice now i have a girl friend who knows i have hep c and shes cool about it. she’s even told me she loves me and if i dont take the meds she’s gonna kick my ass. what yall think about that? i adore her though. bear
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Response:
you know now that i think about it. its kinda sad really being an addict isnt easy. nbor is life in general but hey what can the poor guy say? except that he’s sorry. what the hell man you can be forgive, you didnt know you had it then. let if go man dont worry about it now, its in the past just tke care of your self and that nice wife of yours. Bear
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Response:
Still in love with your own words Hoof . It makes you feel better in your imaginary tower shouting your wisdom down to the "little people" , far,far below . Shoot , I feel better just knowing your way up there where you can`t really hurt anyone . You`ve become " he who`s name shall not be spoken "….but with breasts DT And to all a good night …. "HoofPrints" <equsphotog…@hotmail.com
wrote in message
news:3CFE82C6.B7247164@hotmail.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Duly Noted: This is the Addicts Disease. Let those persons who do not admit to using illegal drugs in their past be forewarned that if you got this disease, or your doctor told you you got
this
disease from the transfusion you received, you will be ill received in
this or any
other support group as you did not take illegal drugs. Please do not upset the addicts by calling them negative persona, they are
after
all very ill people who could not help themselves. ( poor babies).
You’re pity
pot is no where near as pitiful as their own sob stories, so do not expect
to be
supported unless, you can state: Hey I was in the same place you are at
one time.
Besides, since we are rational beings and they are not, we can tolerate
more of
their BS than they can tolerate being told they are negative, lying sacks
of Crap!!
Hoof RSt wrote: On Mon, 03 Jun 20020, HoofPrints <equsphotog…@hotmail.com wrote: For starters how is he now going to get around the fact that there is a
now
public announcement in the very type of area where his victims may or
may
not be reading. The paper trail has begun and anyone with savvy can now view the
statement
which compounds the problem if he lies again. Lawyers will tell you to dummy up and not speak to anyone about your
case,
even your friends. If Perry Mason were hot on the trail, I’d be shaking in my boots if I were him, but not in the real world. He didn’t post anything. Perhaps she was speaking hypothetically or perhaps writing a work of fiction based on her RN experiences or using the phrase "my husband" like some people use "I have this friend who ….", but it really was someone else entirely. When normal folks hear they have an illness, they progressively adjust to the changes it brings to their lives; they don’t go searching in ngs 30 years later to find someone to blame and sue. It’s likely those who received blood products that long ago have known for some time about the possibilities of then undetectable viruses having been in the blood that saved their lives. And that possibility remains with donated blood even today. Some people seem to enjoy playing victim. Whoever donated blood to your so-called victims long ago gave them all these years of life they might not have had otherwise. The psychological problems of your so-called victim (maybe similar to those described by you in your Anonymous victim thread) aren’t necessarily due to hepatitis, and the auto accident which started the chain reaction wasn’t caused by the donor. The zombie might want to consider some psychological counseling. Another trail which will be "quicker" to find than this one, is if he
has ever
been busted as an adult for drugs. [...] If things remain as they are, the buffer of the anonymous donor works
in your
favor, unless someone decides to pursue you from the other side and
work the
system in reverse order of what you are contemplating. Oh yeah? Well, let me know when you get your law degree. Probably like many people, the donor doesn’t know for sure when or where he got it. If you’re going to play the victim/blame game, somebody somewhere along the line gave it to him initially, so isn’t the donor a victim, too? Maybe he didn’t get it until after he donated and using isn’t a key factor in how the blood supply got infected with the then unknown, un-named virus. Maybe even the plasma center inadvertently gave it to him due to their collection techniques that are now considered unsterile, or maybe he got it from his dentist’s office or from some trusted medical person giving him a vaccination. Maybe having been vaccinated before disposable needles came about or having seen a dentist before autoclaving etc. etc. should have been the criteria for screening out donors. Let’s sue everyone! It sure is convenient to demonize illegal drug users – people with no political clout – and make them the scapegoat, which is still the official gov’t line. Even now the recent addition of NAT testing doesn’t screen out all infected blood, though we’re told that the blood supply has been safe for 10 years. I’ve heard that the rise of HCV began here after WWII veterans who had received transfusions returned home, and the vets donated blood and went to doctors who didn’t know about today’s sterilization methods, so perhaps family doctors/surgeons etc. are responsible for its initial spread. It’s foolish to judge what happened yesterday with today’s standards; hindsight is often 20/20. So how do you prove where it all started? It’s a virus. They’re everywhere and they like our livers. Many years from now it may be determined that the problem really lies within each of us who has circulating HCV, with some relationship to some faulty enzyme, protein, biochemical process, gene or whatever that keeps our bodies from being able to successfully keep the virus from settling in our livers. After all, about 20% of the people who test positive for the antibody manage to clear the virus all by themselves with no ill effects. The virus itself ain’t so bad, it seems to be how our immune systems respond to it that causes the damage. So, do we then sue our families for giving us defective genes, the doctors for not detecting that fact earlier, and then have descendants of donors demand reparations for having been blamed in the past? Where would it stop with this kind of blame game? And how do any of us know how our actions or inactions, words said or left unsaid, affect other people 30 years down the road? Robin
Response:
Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down
Response:
If this happened in the 70s, the blood is long gone, and I would think that the statute of limitations would leave your husband free of any liability. Cody "Camilla Cracchiolo" <camil…@mindspring.com
wrote in message
news:i959fuci1uqa3rjql5nnj0md6ess7461l7@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down
Response:
Back in those days anyone who could crawl through the door could sell blood. Bowery bums, the folks from 72nd St’s Needle Park. The Red Cross and for profit’s took ‘em all with just pro forma questions. Who should get sued? The junkie shriveled in pain who would extract gold from their mother’s teeth for a fix? The alky in his own private hell? How do you prove intent? On the other hand those who solicited blood with fliers on the street, the nurses who drew the blood, and the hospitals providing the market with a wink and a nod certainly have more culpability than the semi-concious and delerious. Anyone looking for someone to sue should find a competent lawyer experienced in class-action suits. They know where the money is. Carlos On Fri, 31 May 2002 07:59:37 -0700, Hoof Prints – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<equsphotog…@hotmail.com
wrote: I thought about reassuring your husband that since he had no idea that he had the disease in the 70’s that the persons would be forgiving of his actions. Then I thought about it some more and thought, what a lousy question to be phrased in such a way as to have fear for your personal possessions over someone’s else’s lifetime of living with hepatitis. Then I thought, well it is understandable that you would be asking as you are protecting your combined earnings, but what a lousy question. You might want to get a free consultation with a personal injury attorney or someone who is very familiar with the Code of Civil Procedures for the State of California, and ask them when time runs. I say this because since this is a long term disease and the persons who received the bad blood, not just from your husbands’ blood but others as well, ( at least I doubt that your husband blood is now running in my veins), may not know they have the HCV and the time may run from the date of the discovery that they have the illness. Take Care, Lynne Cody wrote: If this happened in the 70s, the blood is long gone, and I would think that the statute of limitations would leave your husband free of any liability. Cody "Camilla Cracchiolo" <camil…@mindspring.com wrote in message news:i959fuci1uqa3rjql5nnj0md6ess7461l7@4ax.com… Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down
Response:
Carlos wrote:
Back in those days anyone who could crawl through the door could sell blood. Bowery bums, the folks from 72nd St’s Needle Park. The Red Cross and for profit’s took ‘em all with just pro forma questions. Who should get sued? The junkie shriveled in pain who would extract gold from their mother’s teeth for a fix? The alky in his own private hell? How do you prove intent?
You do not have to prove intent. It is a case of negligence and since there was the forethought to lie about ones status, then they knew it was wrong and therefore negligent. while it is the case that you are holding that most addicts are bums living in the gutters and hanging out in back alleys, it is not always the case and so, there are persons to sue.
On the other hand those who solicited blood with fliers on the street, the nurses who drew the blood, and the hospitals providing the market with a wink and a nod certainly have more culpability than the semi-concious and delerious. Anyone looking for someone to sue should find a competent lawyer experienced in class-action suits. They know where the money is.
The solicitors have culpability if and only if they were aware that the person was semi conscious and delirious. It would seem that if someone had the forethought to lie about ones status to avoid prosecution and to get their money for their next dime bag, than they would clean themselves up a bit prior to showing up for venous duty. Nice strawman though. Hoof – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Carlos On Fri, 31 May 2002 07:59:37 -0700, Hoof Prints <equsphotog…@hotmail.com wrote: I thought about reassuring your husband that since he had no idea that he had the disease in the 70’s that the persons would be forgiving of his actions. Then I thought about it some more and thought, what a lousy question to be phrased in such a way as to have fear for your personal possessions over someone’s else’s lifetime of living with hepatitis. Then I thought, well it is understandable that you would be asking as you are protecting your combined earnings, but what a lousy question. You might want to get a free consultation with a personal injury attorney or someone who is very familiar with the Code of Civil Procedures for the State of California, and ask them when time runs. I say this because since this is a long term disease and the persons who received the bad blood, not just from your husbands’ blood but others as well, ( at least I doubt that your husband blood is now running in my veins), may not know they have the HCV and the time may run from the date of the discovery that they have the illness. Take Care, Lynne Cody wrote: If this happened in the 70s, the blood is long gone, and I would think that the statute of limitations would leave your husband free of any liability. Cody "Camilla Cracchiolo" <camil…@mindspring.com wrote in message news:i959fuci1uqa3rjql5nnj0md6ess7461l7@4ax.com… Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down
Response:
Duly Noted: This is the Addicts Disease. Let those persons who do not admit to using illegal drugs in their past be forewarned that if you got this disease, or your doctor told you you got this disease from the transfusion you received, you will be ill received in this or any other support group as you did not take illegal drugs. Please do not upset the addicts by calling them negative persona, they are after all very ill people who could not help themselves. ( poor babies). You’re pity pot is no where near as pitiful as their own sob stories, so do not expect to be supported unless, you can state: Hey I was in the same place you are at one time. Besides, since we are rational beings and they are not, we can tolerate more of their BS than they can tolerate being told they are negative, lying sacks of Crap!! Hoof – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -RSt wrote:
On Mon, 03 Jun 20020, HoofPrints <equsphotog…@hotmail.com wrote: For starters how is he now going to get around the fact that there is a now public announcement in the very type of area where his victims may or may not be reading. The paper trail has begun and anyone with savvy can now view the statement which compounds the problem if he lies again. Lawyers will tell you to dummy up and not speak to anyone about your case, even your friends. If Perry Mason were hot on the trail, I’d be shaking in my boots if I were him, but not in the real world. He didn’t post anything. Perhaps she was speaking hypothetically or perhaps writing a work of fiction based on her RN experiences or using the phrase "my husband" like some people use "I have this friend who ….", but it really was someone else entirely. When normal folks hear they have an illness, they progressively adjust to the changes it brings to their lives; they don’t go searching in ngs 30 years later to find someone to blame and sue. It’s likely those who received blood products that long ago have known for some time about the possibilities of then undetectable viruses having been in the blood that saved their lives. And that possibility remains with donated blood even today. Some people seem to enjoy playing victim. Whoever donated blood to your so-called victims long ago gave them all these years of life they might not have had otherwise. The psychological problems of your so-called victim (maybe similar to those described by you in your Anonymous victim thread) aren’t necessarily due to hepatitis, and the auto accident which started the chain reaction wasn’t caused by the donor. The zombie might want to consider some psychological counseling. Another trail which will be "quicker" to find than this one, is if he has ever been busted as an adult for drugs. [...] If things remain as they are, the buffer of the anonymous donor works in your favor, unless someone decides to pursue you from the other side and work the system in reverse order of what you are contemplating. Oh yeah? Well, let me know when you get your law degree. Probably like many people, the donor doesn’t know for sure when or where he got it. If you’re going to play the victim/blame game, somebody somewhere along the line gave it to him initially, so isn’t the donor a victim, too? Maybe he didn’t get it until after he donated and using isn’t a key factor in how the blood supply got infected with the then unknown, un-named virus. Maybe even the plasma center inadvertently gave it to him due to their collection techniques that are now considered unsterile, or maybe he got it from his dentist’s office or from some trusted medical person giving him a vaccination. Maybe having been vaccinated before disposable needles came about or having seen a dentist before autoclaving etc. etc. should have been the criteria for screening out donors. Let’s sue everyone! It sure is convenient to demonize illegal drug users – people with no political clout – and make them the scapegoat, which is still the official gov’t line. Even now the recent addition of NAT testing doesn’t screen out all infected blood, though we’re told that the blood supply has been safe for 10 years. I’ve heard that the rise of HCV began here after WWII veterans who had received transfusions returned home, and the vets donated blood and went to doctors who didn’t know about today’s sterilization methods, so perhaps family doctors/surgeons etc. are responsible for its initial spread. It’s foolish to judge what happened yesterday with today’s standards; hindsight is often 20/20. So how do you prove where it all started? It’s a virus. They’re everywhere and they like our livers. Many years from now it may be determined that the problem really lies within each of us who has circulating HCV, with some relationship to some faulty enzyme, protein, biochemical process, gene or whatever that keeps our bodies from being able to successfully keep the virus from settling in our livers. After all, about 20% of the people who test positive for the antibody manage to clear the virus all by themselves with no ill effects. The virus itself ain’t so bad, it seems to be how our immune systems respond to it that causes the damage. So, do we then sue our families for giving us defective genes, the doctors for not detecting that fact earlier, and then have descendants of donors demand reparations for having been blamed in the past? Where would it stop with this kind of blame game? And how do any of us know how our actions or inactions, words said or left unsaid, affect other people 30 years down the road? Robin
Response:
"HoofPrints" <equsphotog…@hotmail.com
wrote in message
news:3CFBA42E.5FADA18B@hotmail.com… snip
I would take a look again at that step number nine, and do an inventory of
who else you are hurting by making amends for your past actions.
Personally, if you are doing this as part of a 12 program, you are
exhibiting the same behavior as you did when using by doing harm to others who depend on you. Hoof Sometimes the best amends for your pass actions is to not do them again. I’ve been in recovery for 9 yrs. My sponsor taught me that lesson. Do steps 1,2,3,10,11,12 daily! Take care Deb Bowker Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
Response:
HoofPrints wrote:
For starters how is he now going to get around the fact that there is a now public announcement in the very type of area where his victims may or may not be reading. The paper trail has begun and anyone with savvy can now view the statement which compounds the problem if he lies again. Lawyers will tell you to dummy up and not speak to anyone about your case, even your friends. Hoof
Another trail which will be "quicker" to find than this one, is if he has ever been busted as an adult for drugs. As of this moment, as far as I know, no one has been notified so there are no known victims. I would take a look again at that step number nine, and do an inventory of who else you are hurting by making amends for your past actions. Personally, if you are doing this as part of a 12 program, you are exhibiting the same behavior as you did when using by doing harm to others who depend on you. If you want to become a martyr for some noble cause, then don’t bring anyone down by being foolhardy. If there is no way around the time limits and you find they can not bring lawsuit against you,, then go ahead and ease your mind, otherwise live with the knowledge that you have harmed someone. Don’t compound the problem by dragging you family into this. If things remain as they are, the buffer of the anonymous donor works in your favor, unless someone decides to pursue you from the other side and work the system in reverse order of what you are contemplating. Hoof – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
RSt wrote: On Wed, 29 May 2002 01:51:36 -0700, Camilla Cracchiolo <camil…@mindspring.com wrote: Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down Why does he even have to tell them that he allegedly lied when he donated the plasma? He doesn’t. I’ve often heard lawyers say to never volunteer more info than is needed. That’s when your trouble begins. No one will know he allegedly lied unless he tells them in the first place. If he needs to ease his conscience, he can just tell the center that he has found out he has hepatitis, and he wants to see if it’s possible to notify the recipients. Then say no more. Remember the tremendous lack of recall during the Watergate hearings? "I have no recollection of that." The plasma centers knew the kind of folks they were dealing with back in those days as they lined up in the early AM for their $25. The do-gooders gave at the Red Cross or waited ’til the Blood Mobile stopped by their offices so they could get a half hour or so off work and score brownie points with the United Way. If he wants to tell the plasma center he has hepatitis now, he doesn’t need to tell them he may have lied about using 30 years ago. Robin
Response:
On Wed, 29 May 2002 01:51:36 -0700, Camilla Cracchiolo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<camil…@mindspring.com
wrote: Long time ago, my husband gave blood at a plasma center for pay. They asked if he was using IV drugs. Naturally, given that he was a junkie at the time, he said "no, of course not." Now he wants to contact the plasma center and tell them that he has hep C so they can tell the hospitals that bought the blood to notify recipients. Granted, this was all back in the 70s. Aside from the possibility that all records were destroyed from so far back, does he face any legal liability for having lied to the blood bank when he sold his blood? Can the recipients sue us? Thanks. The trick is to keep an open mind without it being so open that your brains fall out." Camilla Cracchiolo Registered Nurse Los Angeles, California U.S.A. camil…@mindspring.com web page temporarily down
Why does he even have to tell them that he allegedly lied when he donated the plasma? He doesn’t. I’ve often heard lawyers say to never volunteer more info than is needed. That’s when your trouble begins. No one will know he allegedly lied unless he tells them in the first place. If he needs to ease his conscience, he can just tell the center that he has found out he has hepatitis, and he wants to see if it’s possible to notify the recipients. Then say no more. Remember the tremendous lack of recall during the Watergate hearings? "I have no recollection of that." The plasma centers knew the kind of folks they were dealing with back in those days as they lined up in the early AM for their $25. The do-gooders gave at the Red Cross or waited ’til the Blood Mobile stopped by their offices so they could get a half hour or so off work and score brownie points with the United Way. If he wants to tell the plasma center he has hepatitis now, he doesn’t need to tell them he may have lied about using 30 years ago. Robin
Response:
In one of my recent posts I suggested that you and I might have fundamental differences in how we view the world. This is fine with me because I value diversity. I’m glad I had this sense of difference because this perception seems to increase daily. I’m reminded that it is possible for someone to be so focused on their own issues as to dismiss other’s posts as merely a platform to rail against personal ghosts. I remember the criteria for addiction being redefined during the tobacco hearings – speechlessly. I was a little offended that such liberties could be taken with accepted norms and definitions for apparent political purposes. It was like creating a special case for the speed of light to be 200,000km/h to support a position. Oh well, the fix was in and all it proved was that within man’s mind there are no immutable laws just perceptions. I wasn’t surprised, then, to see you take David’s letter and spin off on a tangential agenda about "THEY." When you got to the point of "they" distributing clean needles I started looking for some data to support your position that this is bad. I like to wash my hands in the bathroom, not because I think I have bad sanitary habits, but because it part of my own social contract with my neighbors – you wash your hands and I’ll wash mine. Not very complicated. I believe that there are people out there who would inject themselves with thin glass needles, hollow tungsten light filaments, or any other device necessity invents. My inclination stems from the humanitarian aspect but ultimately ends with the thought of people running around with tungsten pigtails in their arms and what the price of treating the consequent infections might be. Coherent values are often an interest of mankind and I would really appreciate your providing supporting data re: "
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
help
Question:
I do not understand why I keep getting bumped off the list? I just resubscribed on March 17, and I started to get messages and as of today the 21st I have none. Dolores
Response:
At 05:03 PM 1997/03/21 -0800, Dolores Carmona wrote:
I do not understand why I keep getting bumped off the list? I just resubscribed on March 17, and I started to get messages and as of today the 21st I have none.
Dolores… Try fowarding this message to your ISP provider. Between Chanoch’s detective work and Island Internet’s quick debugging, this problem seems to have been solved for me… ———————– Part of Chanoch’s reply (just the part pertinent to my deletion) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
An error was detected while processing the enclosed message. A list of the affected recipients follows. This list is in a special format that allows software like LISTSERV to automatically take action on incorrect addresses. — Error description: Error-For: muirh…@ISLAND.NET Error-Code: 3 Error-Text: User unknown Error-End: One error reported. This is a MIME-encapsulated message –GAA12444.858744388/techunix.technion.ac.il The original message was received at Wed, 19 Mar 1997 05:35:02 +0200 (IST) from lists…@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28] —– The following addresses had permanent fatal errors —– <muirh…@ISLAND.NET —– Transcript of session follows —– <caro…@ICI.NET,<sah…@ICI.NET… Deferred: Connection refused by mail.ici.net.
***********************************************
… while talking to mail.island.net.: RCPT To:<muirh…@ISLAND.NET <<< 550 <muirh…@ISLAND.NET… User unknown 550 <muirh…@ISLAND.NET… User unknown
***********************************************
451 <bucyms…@NCOCC.OHIO.GOV… timeout waiting for input during client greeting 451 <bucyms…@NCOCC.OHIO.GOV… reply: read error from ncocc0.ncocc.ohio.gov. <joan…@NETWORX.ON.CA… Deferred: Connection timed out with aurora.networx.on.ca. –GAA12444.858744388/techunix.technion.ac.il Content-Type: message/delivery-status
—————————————————————– Island Internet’s reply:
We have made a change that should fix this problem. Please let us know if it happens again. What was happening, is that when the password file on the mail server was being updated, as it was being copied into place (This takes about a second) if mail was retrieved for a person that was under the place it had copied to in the password file, it would bounce the message. — Island Internet Customer Support
—————————————————————— Could be your server is experiencing the same problem, Dolores… Give it a try! (((((((U))))))) Still Livin’ on Island Time Michael <muirh…@island.net
http://island.net/~muirhead Masset, BC Canada
Response:
I’m 61 years old and suffer from MS since 1978. Lately my feet burn and hurt, especially at night, i.e. the moment I lie down. I always feel like wearing shoes too small. I take 30 mg of Baclofen a day, sometimes add 5 mg of Seresta (Benzodiazepine) before going to bed. The pain starts from toes upward. Has anyone similar problems and can she/he give me advice. Thanks in advance ernie
Response:
Ernst Uhlmann <uhlma…@datacomm.ch
schrieb im Beitrag
<34736D2D.3…@datacomm.ch
… I’m 61 years old and suffer from MS since 1978. Lately my feet burn and hurt, especially at night, i.e. the moment I lie down. I always feel like wearing shoes too small. I take 30 mg of Baclofen a day, sometimes add 5 mg of Seresta (Benzodiazepine) before going to bed. The pain starts from toes upward. Has anyone similar problems and can she/he give me advice.
Have you tried TENS (transcutaneous electrophysiological nerve stimulation) ? By the way benzodiazepines intensify pain. They are no adaequat treatment for pain ! Amitryptilin could be a help, but this should your doctor decide, who is able to see you from face to face. Good luck ! Malte, MD (working in a pain ambulance)
Response:
Hi Ernie, I also have pain in my feet and legs, particularly at night. I have found amitriptylene (tryptanol or elavil) helps. It doesn’t relieve the pain completely but it does help. Conventional pain relievers such as aspirin or paracetamol don’t help with this sort of pain. Cheers, Howard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– From: Ernst Uhlmann <uhlma…@datacomm.ch
To: MSLIS…@techunix.technion.ac.il <MSLIS…@techunix.technion.ac.il
Date: Sunday, 23 November 1997 3:55 Subject: help
I’m 61 years old and suffer from MS since 1978. Lately my feet burn and hurt, especially at night, i.e. the moment I lie down. I always feel like wearing shoes too small. I take 30 mg of Baclofen a day, sometimes add 5 mg of Seresta (Benzodiazepine) before going to bed. The pain starts from toes upward. Has anyone similar problems and can she/he give me advice. Thanks in advance ernie
Response:
Lori: You mention having a "deep cough"…. There’s some really ugly flu going around (here in Ohio, anyway…I also have some friends in England who’ve had it), that causes respiratory symptoms, as well as severe muscle achiness… Get thee to a dr, post haste!! Lin
Response:
Hi Lori, I think you should go to the ER. Or better still if you can get in touch with your own doctor it might be better. I think you are having an allergic reaction to the medication. My thoughts and prayers are with you. But please don’t wait. It’s better to be safe than sorry. Will be thinking of you. <smiling at you
Good luck!!
Take care, Dawn
Response:
In article <01be5cba$8bab89e0$843daccf@bryan-patterson
, "bpicker"
<bpic…@erols.com
wrote:
| I cant’ even touch myself anywhere | because i feel so bruised!!! argh. please respond asap cause i’m at a | loss!!! Lori, See a doctor ASAP. MAKE him/her find out what is causing this! — Take care James (#11)
Response:
its been a while but don’t know what to think. Yesterday am went to er for SEVERE pain in left hand (have lots of cold and numb feelings all the time in hand but never, never any pain like this. Was dx??? with carpal tunnel syndrome and he ASSURED me it was not my ms. He gave me a shot of toradol and on my way. It helped a little bit but i have now developed a deep cough and woke up this morning and it feels as if i have bruises EVERYWHERE!!! i can’t even lay down because i feel beaten up. I want to say its a viral infection but i have no fever. Now, don’t know if i’m having another flare up (just had one but nothing like this), getting a virus gut no fever, or if it could be the toradol affecting me. Don’t really know what to do. feel stupid calling dr. so just want to know if it could just be another flare up. I cant’ even touch myself anywhere because i feel so bruised!!! argh. please respond asap cause i’m at a loss!!! thanks for being here!!! lori bpic…@erols.com
Response:
Lori, Don’t ever feel stupid calling the doctor. That’s what you pay for– it’s your health so if you feel you need to be seen, call. Hope things work out well for you. Kris D.
Response:
Rupert wrote:
my sister-in-law (much loved by all) was diagnosed as an MS
sufferer over three years ago. she seems to want to hide her head in the sand and smile her way through her difficulties – my wife and I are desperate to help her and feel that she should be exploring the latest treatments and trying to fight
Rupert, It’s hard when someone dear to you gets a disease that is (presently at least) incurable. Clearly, you and your wife want your sister-in-law to have the best in treatment that is available. BUT as someone who has had MS for 10 years, I’d advise you to back off. If your sister-in-law decides later to explore treatments, she knows that you and your wife are willing to help It’s her body, she needs the freedom to make her own decisions without feeling that she is letting people down. Treatments may or may not work for someone, drugs have side effects, dealing with the medical system can be exhausting and frustrating (the ordeal within the ordeal). and sometimes the best thing we can do for ourselves is live our lives without making MS the center of attention. . Best wishes to all of you, Dabrinah
Response:
Rupert, It is wonderful that she has a loving, concerned family but, she has to accept her condition before she can accept help for it. May I suggest some counselling to help her deal with her denial? Ann
Response:
she seems to want to hide her head in the sand and smile her way through her
difficulties – my wife and I are desperate to help her and feel that she should be exploring the latest treatments and trying to fight rather than accept her condition<< Rupert, you and your wife are to be commended for your concern and willingness to become so involved. However, MS effects each of us differently, and there are so many things that you did *not say about her condition. For one thing, is she Relapsing/Remitting, or one of the Progressive forms. I myself have chosen to *definitely not mess around with what (in many cases) are basically harsh chemotherapy. They are not prescribed for my particular Progressive form any way… even if I could afford them. Many folks do not have that option, and do quite well on one or the other of the ABCs (Avonex, Beta-Seron, Copaxone). But, they are not for me. I take the absolute minimum of drugs to relieve my symptoms…and so far, after 9 years, it seems to have worked for me. I suppose they’re *might be one or two people who felt that I was being an "ostrich" in the sand… But that is really not the case. I’ve done the research. I know my own body. I have a positive outlook, and the progression, has been slow… if very uncomfortable. But, at *least, I know *where my symptoms are coming from, rather than combining a dozen drugs and wondering which Sx are coming from their *side effects, and which are from my own body’s MS. Perhaps you and your wife need to be just a little less "desperate" to help, and try to learn what it is *she feels and needs. It’s hard being a "caregiver", as I also take care of a dad with Alz’s.
I would welcome any feedback from MS sufferers or people close to them.
Should we back off or should we engage and if so how?<< I wouldn’t presume to tell you to "back off", because I don’t know how tenacious you are in pursuing this. But, I DO think what you can do best for her is simply let her know that you are there, and willing to support whatever decisions *she* makes. It’s that kind of family support that does the most good. She really has to be the one to make her decisions. Hopefully she has a reliable doctor with whom she can discuss all this, and come to her own conclusions. Remember, (said with compassion), just because we have a disease like MS, does not mean we have lost our "life", our reasoning, or our capacity for making sound decisions that will effect only ourselves. Believe me, Rupert, if SHE is smiling through this… LET HER smile! Attitude is at *least 50% of the end result! She may not be "hiding" at all. It could be that you and your wife are just more involved and "anxious" than she is. But, believe me, she knows what her body is telling her… So (my vote only <smile
), please give her the benefit of the doubt!
And continue to love her and support her as you already do. "Backing off" is probably a good idea… But not from HER…only from your *own beliefs about what she *should be doing! Trust her! And please feel free to write whenever you want and let us know how she is doing. We’re kind of a "crazy" group around here…but there’s love, support, humor and genuine caring. Maybe she’d like to join us!? Take care, Judith cc: Newsgroup O Memory, Memory! Wherefore art thou, Memory? —just me
Response:
Hi! I hope this doesn’t cause everyone to get mad at me but here is my reply to your question….. I was dx’d 10 years ago with MS. I have been VERY lucky for the past 9 years. I have had alot of well meaning friends and family members who have tried to get me to try the latest "cures". I recently gave up on a very good friend because I was tired of her saying I should try things that she thinks are best for me. I don’t feel that I am "suffering" just because other people think that I am. I just learn to adapt to new problems when they arise. For some people that is easier than trying to live their lives for everyone else.If your sister-in-law is depressed then you should do something to get her help. If she just wants to forget her problems she will probably ask for help when she is ready. Everyone handles this disease differently.Give her time and see what happens. Jodie Love & Prayers, Jodie
Response:
Rupert Miles wrote
I would welcome any feedback from MS sufferers or people close to them. Should we back off or should we engage and if so how? Rupert
I couldn’t agree less with the well meaning, but dumb advice in my mind, you have been given so far. People tend to think they live in a vacuum where nothing they do affects others. When of course the opposite is quit true. If I had had someone as well meaning as you here with me I coulda had my head pulled out of my ass far sooner and I wouldn’t be in the shape I am in right now. Wives dont count… they are to eager to believe in their spouse. (or vice versa) If she does have MS she should be on one of the ABCs. (dont know how they are used in primary progressive though) The stupid concept that, "hey its my life blah, blah, blah", Is a load of BS. People have partners, siblings, parents, and children, financial responsibilities, duties, obligations, etc. The attempts at trying to ignore any of these is wrong. While people may have the "right" to willingly get worse and do nothing… It is "wrong". It is wrong to put your family through misery while ignoring treatment that may lessen the pain "they" are put through. Selfishness is immoral. Especially when it concerns family. So I guess that "that" is my opinion for better or worse. My regular Doc has mentioned that it is not uncommon at all for MS victims to be lackadaisical in there response to being ill. They are sometimes slow to intellectually grasp the seriousness of their disease. You will see that here rather often. They often cant understand the need for prompt and intelligent treatment. I would form something like an intervention they use in alcy’s and drug addicts. Get your family and friends all together and confront her. Explain to her that you all love her. That you would all feel terrible that when/if she gets worse that you hadn’t done everything you could to have helped. That you couldn’t have lived with the guilt of watching her pass up on some of the only treatments that have been proven scientifically to help. (the ABC’s) It may be her right to do what she wants, but is it her right to watch herself be slowly destroyed by an incidious disease that erases relationships, ends careers, destroys families, worries parents, and leaves children with a crippled parent? I think not. She has a responsibility to those having a relationship with her. She doesn’t live in a vacuum as many here think they do. Many try to shirk all forms of responsibility to make their lives easier. But of course it burdens everyone else. The "head in the sand" attitude is denial and selfishness at its worst. The diseases effects on peoples lives can be so gradual that they cant even appreciate its impact on their lives. Even in retrospect. Ask many people here how their lives would be different. Along with a few "good" answers you will get a ton of "super dumb" ones. Ask them how their families, spouses, children’s, lovers, co-workers, clergy, siblings, neighbors, lives have been impacted. You will hear excuses all day long on how it hasn’t been nearly as bad for "them" as it has been for him/her. One thing I have noticed about us msers is that we ALL tend to be a little more self-centered than the rest of society. While it may be her "right", she must also realize she has obligations. To you, to your wife, to her parents, ad nausium. I am sure you can think of a better way of saying what I am saying. And surely a "nicer" way of saying it. But what you are noticing isn’t uncommon at all in chronic illnesses. Especially in MS. You should be loving but firm. Get as many people as possible. People are afraid to confront reality. (you will notice that here as well, even in the most drastically affected) Just reasure her that if she does what is responsible, you will always be there for her. (I can garuntee that if she treats this like it is nothing, as time goes on and as symptoms pile up she will find herself with nobody but the ones left closest to her) Try to prevent that. You are a good man in asking. salute. Rob
Response:
Dawn Jenkins
I’m back!!!! <laughing I can only use myself as an example. I’m not on any of those treatments.
Dawn, arent you ppms? I am not real confident in any treatments for that, but I think I would have tried something. But I am not there so it is hard to speculate.
Once upon a time I was on IV Prednisone. I went into the hospital a paraplegic. Three months later I came out a quadriplegic. I had to fight my way through the social system to come back to my own apartment. I was to be put in a nursing home. Eleven years later I am
still
on my own without any treatments.
Bravo. But if you arent ppms then wouldnt you feal a bit odd that your exacerbations could/might have been reduced by a third? And the ones that you did have wouldnt have been as serious? You might well be jogging, playing vollyball, making a bundle at a cushy job, etc… if you had started beta the day it came out. (although highly unlikely of course)
Who’s to say if I didn’t take that treatment if I wouldn’t be better off today. NOBODY KNOWS!!! These drugs are not a cure. They are treatments with no guarantees.
Yes, well, what can I say? Its that way for every single person who takes them. (the ABCs) What if we ALL used that excuse and just didnt bother trying to remain healthy? That would be terrible.
Because she doesn’t want to take the drugs doesn’t mean she’s giving up.
If I said that then It was a goof. Sorry.
She could very well take the drugs and get worse. She has to do what she feels is best for her. Not what is best for everybody else. Granted the people around her are having a hard time.And granted they care. But it’s HER
life.
<smiling
No. The lives around her do not continue on unaffected. She has responcibilies and obligations to those around her, to those that love and rely on her. Neither she nor you have the right to get worse at the expence of others.
Take care, Dawn
Gosh, I wish I could have talked you into one of the interferon’s when they very first came out. You might well be in much better shape. Certainly not in a worse condition. (if you were RR or now sec progressive.) If thats the case I urge youto reconsider your position. Rob
Response:
Rupert Miles wrote:
my sister-in-law (much loved by all) was diagnosed as an MS sufferer over three years ago. …. – my wife and I are desperate to help her and feel that she should be exploring the latest treatments and trying to fight rather than accept her condition. …. Should we back off or should we engage and if so how?
Rupert Do some of each. When she leaves the door open to comment on the MS, do so. BUT tell her you will support her however she needs you to. Let her know you love her and trust that she will feel comfortable coming to you for any assistance she thinks you can give – when she asks for it. Then leave the subject alone. When next you see her, ask how she is just as you would anyone else you greet. If she says fine, leave it at that. No pressure. If you leave the door open and believe what she says, she will come to you when she needs it. In the meantime, learn what you can about the disease. Call the NMSS and get the literature for families. Ask to borrow a book from their library called _Multiple Sclerosis: A Guide for Families_. This literature should help you decide what is the best kind of support you can give. L
Response:
In a message dated 2/12/99 11:29:59 PM Central Standard Time, sating…@AOL.COM writes:
<< I don’t feel that I am "suffering" just because other people think that I am. I just learn to adapt to new problems when they arise. For some people that is easier than trying to live their lives for everyone else.I
Hi Jodie, This is how I have been dealing with MS for about 25 years also. I agree it is easier for some to do than others. I use my scooter most of the time,can drive and use a walker someitmes. I know I should exercise more. I don’t know how well I would adapt if I had more limiitations. I think I have been able to adapt to new problems as they come because for me it has been a long slow process. I fell about 3 weeks ago, displaced a rib and was sore for about a week. Then I decided what I wanted to do the next time I found myself on the floor. ( and unhurt) So when I fell again Friday, due to my sheer stupidity and carelessness, I called my dog to me and had a grand time playing with him on the floor before my grandson helped me up!!!! Still smiling, Edee
Response:
Rob, you never cease to amaze me. If I felt better I would spend some time here complimenting your wisdom. Keep up the good fight! Your MS cuz…Tick
Response:
rob <22rdunc…@idt.net
wrote
People have partners, siblings, parents, and children, financial responsibilities, duties, obligations, etc. The attempts at trying to ignore any of these is wrong. While people may have the "right" to willingly get worse and do nothing… It is "wrong". It is wrong to put your family through misery while ignoring treatment that may lessen the pain It may be her right to do what she wants, but is it her right to watch herself be slowly destroyed by an incidious disease that erases relationships, ends careers, destroys families, worries parents She has a responsibility to those having a relationship with her. Hi Rob, I’m back!!!! <laughing
I can only use myself as an example. I’m not on any
of those treatments. Once upon a time I was on IV Prednisone. I went into the hospital a paraplegic. Three months later I came out a quadriplegic. I had to fight my way through the social system to come back to my own apartment. I was to be put in a nursing home. Eleven years later I am still on my own without any treatments. Who’s to say if I didn’t take that treatment if I wouldn’t be better off today. NOBODY KNOWS!!! These drugs are not a cure. They are treatments with no guarantees. Because she doesn’t want to take the drugs doesn’t mean she’s giving up. She could very well take the drugs and get worse. She has to do what she feels is best for her. Not what is best for everybody else. Granted the people around her are having a hard time.And granted they care. But it’s HER life. <smiling
Take care, Dawn
Response:
my sister-in-law (much loved by all) was diagnosed as an MS sufferer over three years ago. she seems to want to hide her head in the sand and smile her way through her difficulties – my wife and I are desperate to help her and feel that she should be exploring the latest treatments and trying to fight rather than accept her condition. I would welcome any feedback from MS sufferers or people close to them. Should we back off or should we engage and if so how? Rupert
Response:
Hi Rupert, I’m not trying to be sarcastic or harsh. So I hope that this doesn’t come out as such. <smiling at you
And if it does please accept my apology. Because it
certainly wasn’t meant to be. But I don’t understand your plea for help. What is it that your sister-in-law is doing? Or not doing? Because she’s not on any treatment it doesn’t mean she’s giving up. On the contrary!!! She’s just fighting the way she sees fit for herself. Is she in a depression? Is she suicidal? Has she stopped living? Has she given up on life period???? If the answer is no to all of these then I don’t see what the problem is. I’m on meds but I’m not on any treatments. And it certainly doesn’t mean that I’m giving up, or giving in for that matter to this illness. This is just MY WAY!!! If she’s not in any danger then please don’t pressure her. You would be making a very big mistake. Please don’t get me wrong. It’s very nice to see you concerned. <smiling at you
I
wish more people were like this. But I still don’t understand where the big problem is. So maybe if you could elaborate I would understand better. And like I said before. Please don’t take this the wrong way. I think your concern is admirable. <smiling at you
So please don’t stop caring!!!!!
<smiling
Take care, Dawn
Response:
Rupert, my first thought would be is that you explore the alternatives, even to leaving pamphlets or printouts around. I think this shows great care for your sister-in-law. but unfortunately you can’t force her to read, but in time I’ll just bet curiosity will overcome her, and if she should get mad then some lines of communication are open. There is a great deal of info on this site as well as others you should have no problem leaving printouts around, or just become the smartest person on MS than your family. This shows great love and concern, I’m willing to bet she will come around. This could be an act to hide her great fear of the disease, At 08:45 AM 2/11/99 -0000, you wrote:
my sister-in-law (much loved by all) was diagnosed as an MS sufferer over three years ago. she seems to want to hide her head in the sand and smile her way through her difficulties – my wife and I are desperate to help her and feel that she should be exploring the latest treatments and trying to fight rather than accept her condition. I would welcome any feedback from MS sufferers or people close to them. Should we back off or should we engage and if so how? Rupert
<bold
Love and hugs Susan
</bold
| _,,,—,,_ /,`.-’`’ -. ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..; ( `’-’ ’—”(_/–’ `-’_) fL
Response:
Rupert Miles wrote:
my sister-in-law (much loved by all) was diagnosed as an MS sufferer over three years ago. she seems to want to hide her head in the sand and smile her way through her difficulties – my wife and I are desperate to help her and feel that she should be exploring the latest treatments and trying to fight rather than accept her condition. I would welcome any feedback from MS sufferers or people close to them. Should we back off or should we engage and if so how? Rupert
You know , sometimes fighting for answers or treatments is so stressful it is not worth it to the person with MS. Even thought I’ve found a neuro who treated me with respect he wants me treated through the MS clinic. Now the MS clinic is taking their sweet everloving time scheduling me in. After dealing with a lousy first neuro and getting such a run around I think I would like a break from doing all the chasing down and reading up on things etc. I told my dh I would just like to take a vacation from dealing with the MS and just adjust to my new way of life;living with MS. If she is mobile and happy and has no complaints leave it up to her. I’m sure your intentions are honourable but perhaps she feels more in control doing things her way.She has a right to do things her way. We tend to lose some of our control over our lives with MS so we guard what control we do have jealously!!!!!! Debbie in Canada ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Klement Family "Education is what survives when Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten" Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist". e-mail- klem…@icom.ca or d_klem…@hotmail.com Canadian homeschool page: http://www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/ Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http://www.flora.org/oftp/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Response:
where is everyone at first i rcvd approx 30 msgs per day now i get none plz come back crow1961
Response:
On 4-10-97 Joe Gora <Crow1…@AOL.COM
wrote: where is everyone at first i rcvd approx 30 msgs per day now i get none plz come back crow1961
Joe, Here’s an e-mail from me, so you’re sure to get at least 1 message today! We’re all out here, don’t know why you’re not getting the mail! Lyse :-) U, ,U Doggies are just kids in fur! ==o==
Response:
On 4-10-97 Joe Gora <Crow1…@AOL.COM
wrote: where is everyone at first i rcvd approx 30 msgs per day now i get none plz come back crow1961
Hey Joe, There are many of us from AOL here…can’t imagine why you’re not receiving your mail… Are you on the newsgroup or the List? Best, Judith
Response:
In a message dated 97-04-19 17:23:23 EDT, eaglew…@AOL.COM (Eagle Way2) writes: << On 4-10-97 Joe Gora <Crow1…@AOL.COM
wrote:
where is everyone
at first i rcvd approx 30 msgs per day
now i get none
plz come back crow1961
Joe, Aol has finally acknowleged that their e-mail system was in gridlock and mail came to a halt. I went over 24 hours with no mail. Kathy G.
Response:
Hi D, This is the right place to vent. There are a load of really understanding people here. Vent away (but open the window first
Thank you everyone who replied. I know i can get thru the problems with my MS. And i know that i can’t stand the fact that i have alienated my family because of it. I want to be able to fix all the problems that i have caused with my family. I wish there was one word that i could say that would make it all better. There isn’t such a word. It takes work. And i am ready for the challenge. I need somewhere to vent my frustrations so i don’t burden my wife with them all. So you guys may be seeing a lot of me. Thank you again.
— http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/index.html http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/home.html
Response:
Jeez man, don’t alienate your wife. Talk to her before it’s too late – sounds like you both have one hell of a lot to talk about. MS is a crappy disease but it ain’t going to kill you except if you let it. MS or no MS you are just on this planet a few short years and if you let life run away from you’ll miss it. Life is full of shit but it’s also full of love and to a large extent you choose which to develop. So I can talk! I’m the last of the true geeks. I ran away from my wife into cyberspace. The truth was that I love computers – I have a special talent for them – and we just weren’t right for eachother. The kids became the central focus of both of our personal relationships and we drifted too far apart to ever make amends. Now we’re going through the divorce process and the shit is hitting the fan from every conceiveable angle. Let me tell you that divorce is one place you don’t want to visit – I say to people that if they were ever faced with the choice of divorce or MS, go for the MS. Ok, that’s only true in the short term but MS is a only process – it has no intentions or feelings. Divorce, now that’s really wicked and when it hurts you, it means it. You can’t stop MS, but you can stop divorce if it the relationship hasn’t run too far away from you. Your wife’s going to be focussing much of her attention on the kids and is going to be getting well pissed off you. She needs a husband who is going to give her personal attention and help her get through her life. She isn’t going to stop having needs because you have MS. She can help you with your needs but it’s quid pro quo – why should she invest all this emotional energy into a project that isn’t going to pay anything back. Your kids! They are going to be picking up a large amount of the fallout. You have to accept that you have MS and get on with your life. You can fill all those buckets with tears but the MS is not going to go away. Sounds tough doesn’t it. Yeah well, it is. I don’t mean to sound uncaring – let me tell you I understand the pain of MS, and I really feel for you. You story just rings so true for me. Take care, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"D." wrote:
Hello. My name is Darren, and i was told i had MS 3 12 years ago. I’m 33 yrs old, about to turn 34 in a month. I am married and have 3 children ranging from 4 to 14. When i first got diagnosed, i started reading this newsgroup, but found that i just couldn’t get thru many of the posts and responses that i recieved because it made me cry. I went to counselling for about 6 months until money got tight.(those guys don’t come cheap), and have tried my hardest to put my MS somewhere else besides in my head. For the last 2 years i have poured myself into my computer, and almost nothing else in hopes that forgetting about the disease would make it go away. My wife and i were always able to discuss things, and talk about what was bothering us and get it worked out. The symptoms i have are: major fatigue(where i only get around 4 hours a day where i actually feel upbeat and alive), my legs are always shakey, sore, and have these really weird sensations going thru them. my whole left side is always sore and numb and weak. my left arm has had pins and needles(like it’s asleep) for almost 4 years now. i have memory problems, and anger problems. I have had 3 major attacks a year where i lose control of my legs and my left side and have to go on intravenous steroids, except for this last year. i’ve only had one major attack where i had to have the roids. and i think because of that, i am even more fatigue and cranky because the steroids gave me energy to do things. i haven’t had a day since the diagnoses where i feel good. I have always been a very physical man. In my job and in my play. Now thats all gone. And i think i have become very angry about it. My wife always stayed home and worked(dayhome and fostercare). Now for the last 2 years she has been working out of the home. And i know that she doesn’t like it and neither do i. I feel bad that she gets to go out and do stuff like that and i can’t. I resent it. A lot. So i turned to my computer, and i think i have alienated her because of it. I get mad at the smallest things, and sometimes get mad for no reason at all. I hate myself for having this crappy disease. I am upset about having to be home all the time and i have been taking it out on my family. I don’t know how to come to grips with this thing. It’s taken a lot of my life away from me(thats how i feel inside). But why do i get mad for no reason? I’m a young guy, but i feel 100 years old. I don’t know exactly what i’m doing right now. I’m soooo confused. I want things to be the way they used to be, but i don’t think thats possible. I used to talk to my wife when i was feeling sick, but now we hardly talk at all. And i think maybe thats what i need. Someone to talk to. I dunno.
— http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/index.html http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/home.html
Response:
Hi Darren…. My heart goes out to you, your pain is so familiar! We’ve ALL been there. I don’t have the eloquent words of wisdom these guys have. I am not good at composing as they all are! But I can give you something my precious Dad gave me once. (Oh God, how I miss him) "No matter how sad, hurt or disappointed you are tonight, it will ALWAYS be better in the morning!" I just wish he had taken his own wonderful advice the night he committed suicide. It would have made such a difference in so many lives. Your wife and family need you so much…talk to them, hug them, cherish them! God bless you Darren, and know the "group" however flaming we get, will always be there for you! Chrys in California
Response:
Hi Darren, I know what you are talking about with your bouts of anger. Whatever may be the cause. When my mom was Dx, she would have awful fits of anger, even breaking things. I had a hard time understanding this. She would cry after. I knew she was working out he disgust at having MS. When I was Dx, I thought I would handle it differently, because of experience. Wrong!! I found myself becoming so angry, I was unable to control what I did. Then I would always feel so bad. Luckily, I have a husband who is so easy going and very understanding. He encouraged me to talk to him and to get to my real reason for getting so angry. After long hours and many outbursts, I seemed to calm down inside. Now, when I feel a fit coming on, I sit and talk with him. It has brought us closer. The point of this long post is, I have been where you are. You need the support and love of that person closest to you. Reach out to her, I know she will feel closer to you. Right now, she is probably feeling so helpless and needs you also. Love to the both of you, I will keep you in my thoughts. I like the idea, of showing her your post to begin a discussion. Expect tears, from you both. However, they are cleansing. Dana
Response:
D. Vent away.. you will not find a better or more understanding group. Take care and good luck! Hugs & Prayers, Tee — MS MounTain http://www.dsgnworks.com/~msmt/ RedLady’s Home http://www.angelfire.com/ky/redlady/index.html "D." <da…@compusmart.ab.ca
wrote in message news:38728692.ACE2694E@compusmart.ab.ca…
Thank you everyone who replied. I know i can get thru the problems with my MS. And i know that i can’t stand the fact that i have alienated my family because of it. I want to be able to fix all the problems that i have caused with my family. I wish there was one word that i could say that would make it all better. There isn’t such a word. It takes work. And i am ready for the challenge. I need somewhere to vent my frustrations so i don’t burden my wife with them all. So you guys may be seeing a lot of me. Thank you again.
Response:
D wrote:
I want to be able to fix all the problems that i have caused with my
family….It takes work. And i am ready for the challenge. I need somewhere to vent my frustrations so i don’t burden my wife with them all. So you guys may be seeing a lot of me.
Good for you, D. By all means, feel free to vent here, and get support from the folks who know what it’s like. Dabrinah
Response:
Yeah, D. That’s what we’re here for. Letting us help you helps us. Then someday you can return the favor. Mary in DC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——Original Message—– From: Dabrinah <dabri…@AOL.COM
To: MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL <MSLIS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL
Date: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 10:59 PM Subject: Re: help
D wrote: I want to be able to fix all the problems that i have caused with
my
family….It takes work. And i am ready for the challenge. I need somewhere
to >vent my frustrations so i don’t burden my >wife with them all. So you guys may be seeing a lot of me.
>Good for you, D. By all means, feel free to vent here, and get support from
the folks who know what it’s like. Dabrinah
Response:
Hi Darren Theres 3 little words which can make all the difference, I’m sure you know them. I spend most of my time at the computer, sad huh lol, MS has turned me into a computer geek hehe. Our computer is in the dining room attached to the main family room. Although I am keeping myself occupied with the PC I am still very much part of the family, it is no different to when we are all watching the television, and I still know what is going on in the house. Perhaps there are ways you can use the computer to do nice things for your wife. I made a web page about my experience with MS and dedicated the midi to my husband. It gave him such a thrill to see it. I also make cards and notelets for my friends and family. I have found a little appreciation often goes a long way. I share interesting things I find on the Internet, tell them about the new friends I have made. I also realise the need to turn the computer off or turn away from it when loved ones want to talk to me. We all wish MS would go away but unfortunately it won’t, we just have to live with it. MS brings life changes, we can’t always do the things we used to but we are still able to do something. Life doesn’t end with MS, it just changes. Darren wrote
I want to be able to fix all the problems that i have caused
with my family. I wish there was one word that i could say that would make it all better. There isn’t such a word. It takes work. And i am ready for the challenge. I need somewhere to vent my frustrations so i don’t burden my wife with them all. So you guys may be seeing a lot of me. Thank you again. Jan http://members.aol.com/roam51/index.html Stamp out Multiple Sclerosis http://members.aol.com/roam51/stamp.htm
Response:
On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:30:02 +0000, Paul Jones <Paul_Jo…@btinternet.com
wrote: Jeez man, don’t alienate your wife. Talk to her before it’s too late – sounds like you both have one hell of a lot to talk about. MS is a crappy disease but it ain’t going to kill you except if you let it. MS or no MS you are just on this planet a few short years and if you let life run away from you’ll miss it. Life is full of shit but it’s also full of love and to a large extent you choose which to develop.
Dear Paul, I hope this is not rude or the wrong thing to say, but you couldn’t have written that wonderful post 3 months ago. You’ve made such changes in yourself and the way you see MS and life. You haven’t let the shit bury you. I am proud!! Kate
Response:
Kate Murphy wrote:
Dear Paul, I hope this is not rude or the wrong thing to say, but you couldn’t have written that wonderful post 3 months ago. You’ve made such changes in yourself and the way you see MS and life. You haven’t let the shit bury you. I am proud!! Kate
Dear Kate, Absolutely not the wrong thing to say. Actually, I feel really honoured to get such a compliment from someone as wise as you. I think coming to terms with MS isn’t something that you can do overnight and it sure isn’t easy. I think we all go at our own speeds. I don’t know whether I’m all the way there yet, but I think I’m moving in the right direction. Coming to terms with a broken marriage is just as hard. If I had my time over again, I wouldn’t be divorcing right now but I’d probably still have MS – not through choice, you understand, but if I didn’t have MS, I wouldn’t be me and I’m quite attached to who I am. (I’m a firm believer in a genetic basis for the disease.) Your friend, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/index.html http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/home.html
Response:
Darren- I know what you mean about reading posts. They can get very depressing. I had to leave one e-mail group that I was on because I sat here crying for all the people that were worse off then I was. I agree that you need to find a way to vent your anger and frustrations. Your relationship with your wife and kids will only get worse if things continue the way they are. Talk to your wife. If you don’t know what to say, show her the message you posted to us. Letting her know that you care about communicating with her is a start. I also think that you should try to get some more counseling. Maybe your local MS chapter can advise you on how to get it affordably. If that doesn’t work out, check with your local mental health center. They usually have a sliding scale. Please try to work out your problems before you lose your family. Take care, Debbie * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
Hi Darren, I can certainly relate to using your computer as an escape and then finding you have alienated your family because of it. I think you have made the first step in changing that, by realising that it’s happened, and that your anger is a part of your disease, and not your wife’s fault. If you want to improve your relationship with her you certainly do need to talk – to her!! It’s very hard to have your ability to work and support your family taken from you. She knows that, but you need to tell her how you feel. Not just when you’re sick. Men are so bad at sharing their feelings (I generalize, I know), and it’s THE most important thing in maintaining a relationship, especially through difficult times like this. This group provides a lot of support and a forum for saying things that myabe you can’t say to anyone else, because people here understand. My advice to you is to use the group and enjoy it, but don’t make it a reason to retreat further into your computer and build even more walls between you and your wife. You need her more than ever now. Work at making your marriage as good as you can. So many people lose their partners just when they begin to need them as carers. Sometimes it’s because the partners are not prepared to *be carers. But I suspect that it’s sometimes because of a breakdown of communication that starts just as you describe. Don’t let it happen. I hope you don’t find my comments offensive. They’re meant kindly, and spring from experience. Carmel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -D. wrote:
Hello. My name is Darren, and i was told i had MS 3 12 years ago. I’m 33 yrs old, about to turn 34 in a month. I am married and have 3 children ranging from 4 to 14. When i first got diagnosed, i started reading this newsgroup, but found that i just couldn’t get thru many of the posts and responses that i recieved because it made me cry. I went to counselling for about 6 months until money got tight.(those guys don’t come cheap), and have tried my hardest to put my MS somewhere else besides in my head. For the last 2 years i have poured myself into my computer, and almost nothing else in hopes that forgetting about the disease would make it go away. My wife and i were always able to discuss things, and talk about what was bothering us and get it worked out. The symptoms i have are: major fatigue(where i only get around 4 hours a day where i actually feel upbeat and alive), my legs are always shakey, sore, and have these really weird sensations going thru them. my whole left side is always sore and numb and weak. my left arm has had pins and needles(like it’s asleep) for almost 4 years now. i have memory problems, and anger problems. I have had 3 major attacks a year where i lose control of my legs and my left side and have to go on intravenous steroids, except for this last year. i’ve only had one major attack where i had to have the roids. and i think because of that, i am even more fatigue and cranky because the steroids gave me energy to do things. i haven’t had a day since the diagnoses where i feel good. I have always been a very physical man. In my job and in my play. Now thats all gone. And i think i have become very angry about it. My wife always stayed home and worked(dayhome and fostercare). Now for the last 2 years she has been working out of the home. And i know that she doesn’t like it and neither do i. I feel bad that she gets to go out and do stuff like that and i can’t. I resent it. A lot. So i turned to my computer, and i think i have alienated her because of it. I get mad at the smallest things, and sometimes get mad for no reason at all. I hate myself for having this crappy disease. I am upset about having to be home all the time and i have been taking it out on my family. I don’t know how to come to grips with this thing. It’s taken a lot of my life away from me(thats how i feel inside). But why do i get mad for no reason? I’m a young guy, but i feel 100 years old. I don’t know exactly what i’m doing right now. I’m soooo confused. I want things to be the way they used to be, but i don’t think thats possible. I used to talk to my wife when i was feeling sick, but now we hardly talk at all. And i think maybe thats what i need. Someone to talk to. I dunno.
— " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel. Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." www.cyberwizards.com.au/~carmel www.cyberwizards.com.au/~jaragun
Response:
On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:47:20 +1000, CPD <car…@cyberwizards.com.au
wrote:
If you want to improve your relationship with her you certainly do need to talk – to her!! It’s very hard to have your ability to work and support your family taken from you. She knows that, but you need to tell her how you feel. Not just when you’re sick. Men are so bad at sharing their feelings (I generalize, I know), and it’s THE most important thing in maintaining a relationship, especially through difficult times like this.
I have to share an experience. I was reading last night about Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry I who are reported on their wedding night to have shared wine from a jeweled goblet. Today I got in the car with my hubby, the Borodino Sailor, and a thermos of coffee. He was driving. I said, "Can I pour you a cup of coffee?" "No," he said. "I’ll share yours." We rode along, me handing him the cup every so often and drinking myself. It’s the kind of quiet communication/sharing that sort of is our life together. Why jiggle around with two clumsy cups of coffee. We can always fill the one up with hot coffee. Not jewels, of course, but plastic cups from the A-Mart. Kate
Response:
On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 04:10:17 GMT, kat…@mindspring.com (Kate Murphy) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:47:20 +1000, CPD <car…@cyberwizards.com.au wrote: If you want to improve your relationship with her you certainly do need to talk – to her!! It’s very hard to have your ability to work and support your family taken from you. She knows that, but you need to tell her how you feel. Not just when you’re sick. Men are so bad at sharing their feelings (I generalize, I know), and it’s THE most important thing in maintaining a relationship, especially through difficult times like this. I have to share an experience. I was reading last night about Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry I who are reported on their wedding night to have shared wine from a jeweled goblet. Today I got in the car with my hubby, the Borodino Sailor, and a thermos of coffee. He was driving. I said, "Can I pour you a cup of coffee?" "No," he said. "I’ll share yours." We rode along, me handing him the cup every so often and drinking myself. It’s the kind of quiet communication/sharing that sort of is our life together. Why jiggle around with two clumsy cups of coffee. We can always fill the one up with hot coffee. Not jewels, of course, but plastic cups from the A-Mart. Kate
Kate, Of course not jewels, but for sure, gems. Donn
Response:
Hi Darren, Why don’t you try getting away for a short vacation without the kids. Many church’s offer free help also. Your local MS chapter might be able to give advise. Good Luck1 Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
Response:
I’ve been off and on this list for a while. There are too many messages for me to keep up with, but now I think it’s time for me to bitch for a while. My exaserbations started with double vision 15 years ago but was not diagnosed with ms. It was only 6 months ago when I had weakness in my left side that I had an mri and they said there was a spot which is consistant with ms. My body seems to do whatever it wants to now. I used to be a healthy pearson, I enjoyed working out. But now I have no desire to do anything. My doctor put me on serzone for depression but it doesn’t seem to be working. I’m going to call them next week and ask for something else (I don’t want to call sooner because my fiancee and I took my children to Disney and I don’t know if the depression is from that or just because) My best friend asked me to marry him soon after my preliminory diagnosis and my children are having trouble. I need help all over. I’m going to have to sign off this list next week as I teach school and we’re starting Mon and I don’t have time to spend infront of my computer after that. Anything you all could offer between now and then is greatly appreciated. Please excuse my spelling.
Response:
8-13-99,Sharon Coate wrote…
I’m going to have to sign off this list next week as I teach school and we’re starting Mon and I don’t have time to spend infront of my computer after that. Anything you all could offer between now and then is greatly appreciated. Please excuse my spelling.
Sharon – It might help to 1) get this list in digest form – it will come as one email, that you can scan quickly as it has the topics first… 2) get another anti-depressant…I use St John’s Wort tea but that’s not for everybody… 3) take heart – if you can accept the changes of aging, you can handle MS! write anytime, sah…@ici.net "The appearance of truth is not Truth"…attributed to Aristotle ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Response:
Hello to everybody I’m from slovakia and i have very good friend with MS. I need some advice from u. He told me one time… that this illness is not able to heath but its able to stop it.. or to eliminate some symptoms…. is it true ???? pls.. write me something more about that. I’m a computer teacher.. and i don;t know anything from medicin i just want to help him… thanks for all alica P.S. excuse me my poor english
Response:
Alica Karkusova wrote:
I’m from slovakia and i have very good friend with MS. I need some advice from u. He told me one time… that this illness is not able to heath but its able to stop it.. or to eliminate some symptoms…. is it true ???? P.S. excuse me my poor english
Alica Your English is fine. The question is clearly understood. I think what you are talking about are the beta interferons (Betaseron, Avonex and Rebif) and Copoxone (Copolomer-1). These drugs are meant to decrease the number of relapses (sometimes called flares) and make them less damaging to the body when they do happen. Though they are not meant to make someone heal, they sometimes do that, a little, by allowing more time for nature to do its work. Not all of them would be available in your country. Some places in Europe have Avonex and maybe Copoxone available. But Rebif is the one most likely to be available to your friend because it was invented in Europe. Many doctors for MS are saying that everyone with MS should be on one of these drugs. Certainly the test on people with Secondary Progressive MS have benefited from the beta interferons in the large tests conducted in the US and Europe. I hope this information helps you and your friend. L — The Grocery Bag Law The candy bar you planned to eat on the way home from the market is hidden at the bottom of the grocery bag. (comment: especially if it’s chocolate!!!)
Response:
hello, any advice on how to handle bowel incontinence, to make my husbands life more tolerable please? I ma new to computers and e-mail but not to m.s. thank you kay.
Response:
Kay Palmer wrote:
any advice on how to handle bowel incontinence, to make my husbands life more tolerable please?
Kay You and your husband need to find a bowel program that works for him. There are several ways to do this but the best way is to see a rehab nurse. Ask your doc to prescribe that your husband see one (in a rehab center) or that the rehab centers home health send one to you. See http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8733 -You may find a beginning there. Then go to the links page and see Dr. Catherine Britels pages. L
Response:
does any one take avonex? i am new at this and afraid to do my own injection. rjo
Response:
It is quite obvious that you need to see some medical folks for this help. You will get info from Biogen which will include a detailed video tape. Your doctor should set up a training program in his office. Once you do this then I can give you some "tips" and so will a lot of other people. A little more info would be very helpful. Do you live in an isolated cave in the arctic? Do you have access to medical facilities. What is the extent of you disability. I would like to give you some advice other than that hold needle firm, close eyes and stab downward. Jack "Walter J Reynolds" <R…@prodigy.net
wrote in message
news:92m28d$g4ru$1@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
does any one take avonex? i am new at this and afraid to do my own injection. rjo
Response:
I have been on Avonex for four years. I have felt that it has done a good job on keeping me healthy. It is easy to give yourself a shot if you view the video and take pre-medications before the shot and then after the shot. Go to your doctor and ask for a 27G 1 1/4 needle. I tried using the one that comes with the package and found that the 27G was a little easier. I took two Tylenol and a Benadryl while taking my shot on Friday night. With this date, I was able to still have a good evening and then have Saturday to get over any of the flue like feelings. Fortunately, with the pre and post medications, I was able to go forward without much of a problem. Which ever means you take to give yourself these shots is up to you. It might take a little time to get used to giving s shot but the fear factor will deminish soon. I wish you the very best. Remember to drink plenty of water and remember to take care of yourself. Not too much sun, plenty of water, and plenty of fun while staying away from stress. Take care CA
Response:
G’day Walter, I had a nurse train my wife and I how to do it and since then I have been OK. Particularly using an icepack to numb the site before injecting. Lofty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Walter J Reynolds wrote:
does any one take avonex? i am new at this and afraid to do my own injection. rjo
Response:
I would like to give you some advice other than that hold needle firm, close eyes and stab downward. Jack
I love it jack! j jkl
Response:
anyone know how to take a vacation from the list? I would like to suspend MSList mail until Nov.28…
Response:
JaneK82…@AOL.COM wrote:
: anyone know how to take a vacation from the list? I would like to suspend : MSList mail until Nov.28… If you get it via Bitnet send an unsubscribe note then subscribe when you get back. If you get it via USENET just turn it off or use the catch up key. I’ve never done Internet via AOL since I get it as part of my tuition so I don’t know but if you get mslist-l you are on BITNET, if you get alt.support.mult-sclerosis you are on USENET. Hope this helps. Bill in New Mexico
Response:
On Tue, 15 Nov 1994 JaneK82…@AOL.COM wrote:
anyone know how to take a vacation from the list? I would like to suspend MSList mail until Nov.28…
Unsubscribe, then subscribe again the 28th. John Murray jmur…@inet.uni-c.dk
Response:
Jane: I don’t think you got my last message, because it was returned to me AS UNDELIVERABLE. Sorry I can’t be of more help. As I said, I can’t find my notes on how to suspend. As far as I recall, you have to send a message to ListServ, with Suspend MSList-L and then sign up again after your return. Take care, Margret
Response:
At 04:35 PM 5/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
Susan, On Sat, 4 May 1996, s_guziejka wrote: i would just love to do that, how exiting to think of helping people 10-15 hours a week. Don’t you do that here? VBG. was that a shot or were you serious? i really don’t know if i help
peoplew here, though there has been some mention of it. luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ The worst of all deceptions is self-deception. -Plato
Response:
Susan, etal, On Mon, 6 May 1996, s_guziejka wrote:
Don’t you do that here? VBG was that a shot or were you serious? i really don’t know if i help peoplew here, though there has been some mention of it. luv, susan
Informatively, I do not give shots, (unles they are to me, VBG). We all have enough to deal with and come here for support. YOUR POSTS HAVE BEEN WARMING TO ME AND I ASSUME EVERYONE ELSE. Really, I swear, if anyone thinks they got a "shot" or dig from me, you are mistaken, and I am sorry. Regards & Strawberries, Watermelon & Lollipops (and hugs, smiles and sunshine) Eric Eric Weinberg a0020…@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Response:
In article <MSLIST-L%96050618154…@TECHNION.TECHNION.AC.IL
, s_guziejka
<s_guzie…@MAIL.CONKNET.COM
wrote: …. Don’t you do that here? VBG. was that a shot or were you serious? i really don’t know if i help peoplew here, though there has been some mention of it. ….
Boy, I didn’t think that was a "shot" at all. Yes, I think you help people here. Just by being who you are. Cathe (Browman: email "brow…@haskins.yale.edu") [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of Yale. Those of us with computer accounts at Haskins often access other places via Yale.]
Response:
At 12:41 PM 5/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
Susan, etal, On Mon, 6 May 1996, s_guziejka wrote: Don’t you do that here? VBG was that a shot or were you serious? i really don’t know if i help peoplew here, though there has been some mention of it. luv, susan Informatively, I do not give shots, (unles they are to me, VBG). We all have enough to deal with and come here for support. YOUR POSTS HAVE BEEN WARMING TO ME AND I ASSUME EVERYONE ELSE. Really, I swear, if anyone thinks they got a "shot" or dig from me, you are mistaken, and I am sorry.
no i’m the one who is sorry, i don’t have enough confidence in myself these days. and about the shot i really was only half-serious. so again i’m sorry. i really help people here? now i have tears in my eyes, cuz sometimes i can feel so worthless. i sometimes start to think my degree is wasted. thank-you humbly Eric, that’s my brother’s name, with tears. and don’t you feel bad it’s ok to cry! luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ The worst of all deceptions is self-deception. -Plato
Response:
I didn’t think that was a "shot" at all. i was only half serious, tend to be insecure at times. Yes, I think you help people here. Just by being who you are.
thanks a whole lot cathe, just sometimes need to be reminded.
At 04:16 PM 5/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
Don’t you do that here? VBG. was that a shot or were you serious?
luv and meow susan (`.-,’) Dreams are renewable. .-’ ; No matter what our age or condition, _.-’ , there are still untapped possibilities _ _.-’ .’ /._ within us and new beauty waiting to be born. .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( Dale E. Turner )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’
Response:
I have Free Agent and don’t understand it. What do the numbers before a message mean? How about in brackets? How do I read all responses to a message?
Response:
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:46:37 GMT, dmccar2…@aol.com wrote:
I have Free Agent and don’t understand it.
II’m no expert
What do the numbers before a message mean? How about in brackets?
Number in front is size of message (in lines, I think) Number in brackets indicates that several messages (original and responses) are grouped together. The number is the number of additional responses to the first message.
How do I read all responses to a message?
You can expand the thread (collection of message and its responses) by selecting (highlighting) it and, from the menu bar, using Navigate | Expand Thread. You can also expand All threads. And either "+" from the numbers keypad (for one thread) or "shift +" (for all threads). will do this too. You can also collapse expanded threads from the Navigate menu, or use the "-" or "shift -" key from the numeric keypad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
I have not recieved any postings since 4-23 10:00am am I the only one.
Response:
In article <3720CE52.FD133…@bellsouth.net
, Joann Howard
<jhowa…@bellsouth.net
wrote:
| I have not recieved any postings since 4-23 10:00am am I the only one. Joann, I suggest that you contact your internet service provider (Bellsouth?) to determine if they are having problems. I am not having problems. From here in British Columbia, Canada, I can ping bellsouth.net, but cannot do a ‘traceroute’ to that node… (Bellsouth may have configured that node not to respond to trace routes…) — Take care James (#11)
Response:
never mind I stroked this puter until I got y’all back Thank you Andy in the Big Easy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joann Howard wrote:
I have not recieved any postings since 4-23 10:00am am I the only one.
Response:
someone please help me get back on the list? Thanks, Dolores
Response:
At 03:40 PM 2/25/97 -0800, you wrote:
someone please help me get back on the list? Thanks, Dolores
Hi: Send an E-mail to: LISTS…@TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL Leave the subject blank In the body, type: Subsribe MSLIST-L Yourfirstname YourLastName That’s it. Pam McHenry Indianapolis IN
Response:
I’m going thru a bad time right now, i fell hard twice since i have been home and my husband might lose his job today.
well it’s today and they treated him just like they want him out.
but to just fire some one questions would have to be answered after all he’s been 7 years.
we have one old car, are broke so who isn’t? how does he find a job
while still working and if he’s fired can he collect unemployment? If he Quits can he collect? On top of that what do we do about the student loans?
the whole thing started 4 months ago with his new inexperienced
supervisor, now john has been there without a complaint for seven years. His last supervisor gave him a wonderful reference, then he had another supervisor for two years, they got along well then the college downsized, john and his supervisor were to do the work of 7 people! So he got out of there as fast as he could. He had his BA.
this new young woman screams yells hollars, at any little thing.
swears up a storm too. Now my John is not made like that, so the day before yesterday, something didn’t go right, and she screams get the f*** out of here you are fired. so john went to admin told someone about it (there is no human resources director yet, they all leave) and he was told to go home and let her cool off.
So he goes to work yesterday and they end up treating him like he’s
been bad, his one reason for working there is that he’d get schooling free. that was taken away from him amoung other things that were said to him..
so now I’ve written a story here, does anyone have any suggestions
on looking for work while working? I was wondering if it would be possible for those of you in my temperate zone, you know Delaware to Oregon, would be willing to send us classifieds, if any of you don’t think it’s a good idea I won’t be hurt. but maybe someone can come up with a better. I know John has tried searching on the web, don’t remember what he said, except it was not doing for him that he wanted.
And to top it off If my left leg doesn’t cut it out I’ll be pretty
much wheelchair bound.
Thank-you all, I know this is long, I deleted as much as I could,
appreciate being able to bring my problems here. __..–”“—….___ _…_ __ /// //_.-’ .-/"; ` “<._ “.”_ `. luv and meow ///_.-’ _..–.’_ `( ) ) // // susan / (_..-’ // (< _ ;_..__ ; `’ / /// s_guziejka@conknet .com / // // // `-._,_)’ // / “–…____..-’ /// / // Dreams are the touchstones of our characters. Thoreau (1817-1862)
Response:
What is John occupation?
Response:
he’s a camerapress operator, as well as studying art. At 02:04 PM 12/6/96 EST, you wrote:
What is John occupation?
__..–”“—….___ _…_ __ /// //_.-’ .-/"; ` “<._ “.”_ `. luv and meow ///_.-’ _..–.’_ `( ) ) // // susan / (_..-’ // (< _ ;_..__ ; `’ / /// s_guziejka@conknet .com / // // // `-._,_)’ // / “–…____..-’ /// / // Dreams are the touchstones of our characters. Thoreau (1817-1862)
Response:
s_guziejka <s_guzie…@MOUNTK.CONKNET.COM
writes: I’m going thru a bad time right now, i fell hard twice since i have been home and my husband might lose his job today. well it’s today and they treated him just like they want him out. but to just fire some one questions would have to be answered after all he’s been 7 years.
Hello, Susan! It sounds like you’re going thru some hard times. As for your husband’s job/new supervisor, I hope he’s kept track of what she has done/said, dates, events, etc. It would help if other people in that dept. have had something to say about him, her, what’s been going on, etc. If he is fired, he may still be able to get unemployment if he can prove he was not fired for "just cause". –It’s been a while since I’ve had to deal with this sort of nonsense (!!), but he needs to talk to a union rep, the college personnel office, Ombudsman, or someone who can help him thru the bureaucratic process of getting his side on record. The fact that the new sup. loses her temper, swears, and generally acts unprofessionally is evidence on John’s side of the story. I hope he’s talked to __her__, too–if only to ask her what grounds she has to fire him. He also might, at some point, talk to _her_ superior. I hope your leg lets you be–you don’t need that with the extra stress of John’s job problems! Hope you feel better! And remember–there are ways to deal with/fight unfair job situations. Good luck to you both! Happy Hannukkah, Super Solstice, Kool Kwaanza, and Merry Christmas! Mega-HUGS, Jan
Response:
At 16:11 12/6/96 -0500, you wrote:
he’s a camerapress operator, as well as studying art.
Sorry you guys are having such a rough time of it Susan. I know how you must be feeling. My hubby was wrongfully terminated right after Jennie was dx’d (got his job back tho’). If you’re interested in the New York, Long Island area, e-mail me your snail address and I’ll keep my eyes peeled in the local papers. Hugs n prayers, P. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PamY Some days you’re the pigeon and some days you’re the statue.
Response:
Perhaps he could get a job with a firm that does professional photography and documents for large corporations or for prints of artwork. To go into business on his own would be expensive in terms of equipment and studio etc., but perhaps he could start by assisting another who currently does this kind of work. We have such a business near where we live that photographs documents for slide presentations in state government. Also does wonderful slides of original art that is later made into prints. THe photographic equipment is quite expensive but you can charge a lot for the expertise. Some art magazines my have names of corporations that do such work. Perhaps he could be an apprentice? Just an idea. Love, Lois in Mich. In article <199612061930.VAA05…@techunix.technion.ac.il
,
s_guziejka <s_guzie…@MOUNTK.CONKNET.COM
wrote:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
he’s a camerapress operator, as well as studying art. At 02:04 PM 12/6/96 EST, you wrote: What is John occupation? __..–”“—….___ _…_ __ /// //_.-’ .-/"; ` “<._ “.”_ `. luv and meow ///_.-’ _..–.’_ `( ) ) // // susan / (_..-’ // (< _ ;_..__ ; `’ / /// s_guziejka@conknet .com / // // // `-._,_)’ // / “–…____..-’ /// / // Dreams are the touchstones of our characters. Thoreau (1817-1862)
Response:
signing off this list is too hard. already i have yet to do it. when i started to, I had tears in my eyes, it felt like i was cutting off one of my hands. any ideas? it’s just i have to stop typing here. but start typing for our much needed grants so i can buy my own computer to include voice recognition. we need to raise $4ooo.oo approximately. then the car to fit an electric chair. I HATE MONEY, or rather the need. so i can’t do both. but hate leaving, even for a short period. thanks for any thoughts. luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ Work to become, not to acquire. -Elbert Hubbard
Response:
so i can’t do both. but hate leaving, even for a short period. thanks for any thoughts.
Hi Susan, Sorry you are having it bad. Have you thought of setting ‘no-mail’ to the support group? Then if you can do it, you could down-load the alt.support.mult.sclerosis news-group. You could then still read what is posted. Hope this will help. ((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) B.J. M.S.- THE DISEASE OF USED TO BE. *HUGS* For those looking for first-hand accounts of experiences with MS, try: http://www.pobox.com/~mattl/ms and don’t forget to leave your experiences too! Take charge of your health-care, you are the boss and you are the one the meds./treatments affect. "Fool some one once and they’ll be foolish for a day, but teach them to fool themselves and they’ll be foolish for a lifetime." R.J. (a.k.a Michael Fry)
Response:
susan, good grief, don’t go…you need us and vice versa…is there any financial support worth pursuing through the state ms society? any service orgs…rotarians…kiwanis…? have you approached the dvr [dept of vocational rehab]…why have we or for that matter, our friends and families donated to or walked or pedaled for ms? you’ve mentioned that you’re living in an isolated, rural area…for your well-being you need the mslist for support and if i were the head of the nmss i’d see that you have the necessary equipment for electronic support. sioux k-h responding to– signing off this list is too hard. already i have yet to do it. when i started to, I had tears in my eyes, it felt like i was cutting off one of my hands. any ideas? it’s just i have to stop typing here. but start typing for our much needed grants so i can buy my own computer to include voice recognition. we need to raise $4ooo.oo approximately. then the car to fit an electric chair. I HATE MONEY, or rather the need. so i can’t do both. but hate leaving, even for a short period. thanks for any thoughts.
Response:
s_guziejka <s_guzie…@MAIL.CONKNET.COM
wrote: signing off this list is too hard. already i have yet to do it. when i started to, I had tears in my eyes, it felt like i was cutting off one of my hands. luv, susan
susan, you will be back! and we won’t forget ya! you may have to remind us ’cause, (speaking for myself!) i have a tendency to be forgetful! i’m not sure if it’s ms or from just being old!! : ) peggy
Response:
In article <MSLIST-L%96042718263…@TECHNION.TECHNION.AC.IL
, s_guziejka
<s_guzie…@MAIL.CONKNET.COM
wrote: signing off this list is too hard. already i have yet to do it. when i started to, I had tears in my eyes, it felt like i was cutting off one of my hands. any ideas? it’s just i have to stop typing here. but start typing ….
You don’t need to leave. Just read whatever you want, and comment if and when *you* feel like it. Your comments will be missed, but that’s the way it has to be…. Cathe (Browman: email "brow…@haskins.yale.edu") [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of Yale. Those of us with computer accounts at Haskins often access other places via Yale.]
Response:
Susan, I hate to think of you signing off. I enjoy your posts, (even if I do not always agree with you). Your writin re grants got me thinking. I have a 17 year old who is going to FSU next year. My income dropped through the floor and until I get approved for disiability, the stress around here is so thick you can see it. Does anyone know where we can go for help? We did file a request at the financial aid office for a special circumstance review, but September is coming fast, we still have not heard from them, and we are getting nervous. Real nervous. Any ideas? Regards, Eric Eric Weinberg a0020…@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Susan, I hate to think of you signing off. I enjoy your posts, (even if I do not always agree with you). Your writin re grants got me thinking. I have a 17 year old who is going to FSU next year. My income dropped through the floor and until I get approved for disiability, the stress around here is so thick you can see it. Does anyone know where we can go for help? We did file a request at the financial aid office for a special circumstance review, but September is coming fast, we still have not heard from them, and we are getting nervous. Real nervous. Any ideas? Regards, Eric Eric Weinberg a0020…@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
==================== Eric——— Scheez, Eric, call the buggers and go see them, guy! Our kid still young [11], we’ve got him on that Florida Pre-Paid College Program and w’all got our fingers crossed it will work out [bloody state legislature be damned!]. Sorry the "ideas" are so shallow, Eric. I understand and feel the frantic feeling for "der kid" and "der family" <g
.
Go knock on a coupla doors, there has to be all sorts of stuff out there. Bloody legislature in session too, knock [e-mail] your representativer, senator…whatever. Der be a solution, go play "sleuth," Cap’, Eric. -mike- Michael Christie Crawfordville, Florida e-mail: k7…@nettally.com
Response:
Susan, Have you tried the Easter Seal Society, or the Rehabilitation Service in your area? Just a thought. Good luck to you. Perhaps, friends/family, church? We do want to keep you online! Hugs and good luck, Lois In article <MSLIST-L%96042718263…@TECHNION.TECHNION.AC.IL
,
s_guziejka <s_guzie…@MAIL.CONKNET.COM
wrote:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
signing off this list is too hard. already i have yet to do it. when i started to, I had tears in my eyes, it felt like i was cutting off one of my hands. any ideas? it’s just i have to stop typing here. but start typing for our much needed grants so i can buy my own computer to include voice recognition. we need to raise $4ooo.oo approximately. then the car to fit an electric chair. I HATE MONEY, or rather the need. so i can’t do both. but hate leaving, even for a short period. thanks for any thoughts. luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ Work to become, not to acquire. -Elbert Hubbard
Response:
A
signing off this list is too hard. You don’t need to leave. Just read whatever you want, and comment if and when *you* feel like it.
looks like that’s what i’ve decided to do. i figure if there is someone real needy, i’m not the only one who can help. so i shouldn’t worry if i can’t write, so that’s that. i am not signing off. BUT, I STILL HAVE THOSE DAMNED LETTERS TO WRITE! so hopefully you all won’t hear that much from me. take care, and thanks. luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ The worst of all deceptions is self-deception. -Plato
Response:
So glad your staying Susan. Your posts are so important to us but you are even more important. We will be happy to just know that you are around. The best to you. You are very special. Sharon in Nipomo At 11:59 PM 5/2/96 +0200, you wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
A signing off this list is too hard. You don’t need to leave. Just read whatever you want, and comment if and when *you* feel like it. looks like that’s what i’ve decided to do. i figure if there is someone real needy, i’m not the only one who can help. so i shouldn’t worry if i can’t write, so that’s that. i am not signing off. BUT, I STILL HAVE THOSE DAMNED LETTERS TO WRITE! so hopefully you all won’t hear that much from me. take care, and thanks. luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ The worst of all deceptions is self-deception. -Plato
Response:
At 12:39 AM 5/1/96 GMT, you wrote:
Susan, Have you tried the Easter Seal Society, or the Rehabilitation Service in your area? Just a thought.
and they were good thoughts voc rehab and i are sort of friendly fighting, maybe not so friendly. just got the definite word today that they won’t upgrade or get me a new computer. easter seals here does other things, but not that. i am going to try for the rotary club here where i live, i graduated at this town’s college, my husband has worked there 7 years in june. all they can say is no. i can get a low interest loan, but we are needeing to think of an electric wheel chair soon, and that means a new car. besides i am going to try and force voc rehab to send me for my master’s in counseling, preferably, substance abuse and the family. i would just love to do that, how exiting to think of helping people 10-15 hours a week. thanks for the ideas, keep them coming please. luv, susan (`.-,’) .-’ ; _.-’ , `,- meow _ _.-’ .’ /._ .’ ` _.-. / ,’._;) ( . )-| ( )`,_ ,’_,’ _;) `-:;.-’ The worst of all deceptions is self-deception. -Plato
Response:
Susan, On Sat, 4 May 1996, s_guziejka wrote:
i would just love to do that, how exiting to think of helping people 10-15 hours a week.
Don’t you do that here? VBG. Strawberries, Watermelon & Lollipops (and hugs, smiles and sunshine) Eric Eric Weinberg a0020…@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Response:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:36:24 -0700, Elizabeth <el…@home.com
wrote:
|I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. |I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather |eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long |term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income |WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still |stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read |it the first 20 times. | To say that it is good news is an understatement! Congratulations, from all of us who envy you (me, especially). Kris Lewis
Response:
Congratulations, Eliz. I’m very happy for you. :D Love Carmel — "Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel. Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself!" Web sites at http://www.jaragun.com/ http://www.geocities.com/peripata/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Elizabeth wrote:
I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.) jack n dalton wrote: WARNING! If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation. Jack "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com wrote in message news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking stick,i,m a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell me more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i have progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx — Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
Lynne I couldn’t agree more with the other posts that say…research, research research. Best place for that is right here…cowboy and Paul do a great job of posting the latest research projects, outcomes and information on the BIG drug companies. We all understand what you are going through….I am 34, mother of two girls, diagnosed at 31 and according to the opthamologist I have had this at LEAST 15-20 years. In other words…since puberty. Hang around….we are a motley crew. Check all facts…and look out for spam and rip-off telemarketers. I use my real email addy, no spam protection, and my real email addy contains my actual last name. not a common last name Danelski……not too hard to located. I have gotten many calls from so called non profit organizations. Offering free assistance…IF after I receive their products, services whichever…than I pay through the nose. When the calls come in…if my hubby is here I hand the phone to him. Funny how they DON"T want to speak to him at all. Be careful out there, verify sources, and keep smiling! Laughter is the best medicine! — Take Care : ) JulieD "CT Franklin" <no…@mit.edu
wrote in message
news:sQDg7.571$nV4.230683@typhoon1.gnilink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> One good source for info is www.nmss.org. There are many other good web > sites out there. > Regards > CT > "Lynn Parker" <
wrote in message
> news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… > > hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it
for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking
stick,i,m
a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell
me
more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i
have
progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx
Response:
WOO HOO Elizabeth Great news….don’t forget to sign and hand in the papers now! — Take Care : ) JulieD "Elizabeth" <el…@home.com
wrote in message
news:3B831AA8.8B53C7F9@home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. > I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather > eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long > term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income > WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still > stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read > it the first 20 times. > And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. > I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this > means to my future. > Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all > the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. > f… me.) > jack n dalton wrote: > > WARNING! > > If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a > > pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation. > > Jack > > "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com
wrote in message
> > news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… > > > hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it
for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking
stick,i,m
a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell
me
more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i
have
progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx — Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
OH. MY. GOD. You finally got something you deserve! This is great. Fantabolus. Send money. Old Uncle Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
From: Elizabeth I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.)
Response:
You have to know that I couldn’t do that fast enough before they changed their minds. hehehe "GODDAMMIT SOMEONE GIVE ME A PEN!!!" hehehe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jdgargoyle wrote:
WOO HOO Elizabeth Great news….don’t forget to sign and hand in the papers now! — Take Care : ) JulieD "Elizabeth" <el…@home.com wrote in message news:3B831AA8.8B53C7F9@home.com… I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.) jack n dalton wrote: WARNING! If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation. Jack "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com wrote in message news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking stick,i,m a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell me more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i have progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx — Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
— Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
I did show some mercy for our American readers. You’ll notice I didn’t mention how much it will cost me… Kris Lewis wrote:
To say that it is good news is an understatement! Congratulations, from all of us who envy you (me, especially).
Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
My god, woman!!! You have hit the insurance motherlode!!!!! You’re right — how lucky can a girl get???? Wow. I am feeling lots of relief all the way down here. – Lynne "Elizabeth" <el…@home.com
wrote in message
news:3B831AA8.8B53C7F9@home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. > I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather > eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long > term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income > WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still > stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read > it the first 20 times. > And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. > I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this > means to my future. > Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all > the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. > f… me.) > jack n dalton wrote: > > WARNING! > > If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a > > pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation. > > Jack > > "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com
wrote in message
> > news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… > > > hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it
for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking
stick,i,m
a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell
me
more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i
have
progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx — Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
News like this makes my heart warm! Wonderful, I am sooooo happy for you! Susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:36:24 -0700, Elizabeth <el…@home.com
wrote: I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.) jack n dalton wrote: WARNING! If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation. Jack "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com wrote in message news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking stick,i,m a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell me more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i have progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx — Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
Regarding the insurance news, as my nephew would say, "Tight!" Regarding the signature about Malkovich, cracked me up. Congrats, Elizabeth! Best regards, Meg
Response:
Wy to go Elizabeth! Do ‘good things come in threes’? Keep us informed… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -In article <3B831AA8.8B53C…@home.com
, Elizabeth <el…@home.com wrote: I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.)
— Take Care James (#11) http://www.geocities.com/hjbsam/theory.html
Response:
Send money, hell… she lives in BC… send buds!!! Congratulations Elizabeth!!! — Pam ** Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be amused. "Old Uncle Steve" <alden8…@aol.com4getit
wrote in message
news:20010822101803.01546.00003054@mb-ml.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
OH. MY. GOD. You finally got something you deserve! This is great. Fantabolus. Send money. Old Uncle Steve From: Elizabeth I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.)
Response:
the cockles of my heart are toasty "Elizabeth" <el…@home.com
wrote in message
news:3B831AA8.8B53C7F9@home.com… I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jack n dalton wrote:
WARNING! If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was
a
pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in
compensation. > Jack > "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com
wrote in message
> news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… > > hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it
for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a
walking stick,i,m
a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone
please tell me
more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my
body,they say i have
progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take
care
everyone xx
— Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
she might not caret to tell about the other two ………. "jbridges" <jbridg…@home.com
wrote in message
news:jbridges1-6796CD.13391322082001@news2.rdc1.bc.home.com… Wy to go Elizabeth! Do ‘good things come in threes’? Keep us informed… In article <3B831AA8.8B53C…@home.com
, Elizabeth
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<el…@home.com
wrote: I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.)
— Take Care James (#11) http://www.geocities.com/hjbsam/theory.html
Response:
Wonderful news……. it gives me faith in the adage ‘we reap what we sow’ As for things coming in threes…… you are on a roll. Buy a lottery ticket just in case. <bg
"jbridges" <jbridg…@home.com
wrote in message
news:jbridges1-6796CD.13391322082001@news2.rdc1.bc.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Wy to go Elizabeth! Do ‘good things come in threes’? Keep us informed… In article <3B831AA8.8B53C…@home.com, Elizabeth <el…@home.com wrote: I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read it the first 20 times. And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this means to my future. Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. f… me.) — Take Care James (#11) http://www.geocities.com/hjbsam/theory.html
Response:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:36:24 -0700, Elizabeth <el…@home.com
wrote:
}I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. }I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather }eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long }term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income }WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still }stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read }it the first 20 times.
Wow, Elizabeth. Way to go, girl! — Joan Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don’t have film.
Response:
I can get long term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income WITHOUT
having to divulge any information. I’m still stunned. Too wonderful! Snap it up! What an amazing and wonderful thing. Dabrinah
Response:
Awesome news – go get it gal – Love Barb (who love happy things.xx) (BTW You were late, I waited!) "Elizabeth" <el…@home.com
wrote in message
news:3B831AA8.8B53C7F9@home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I almost hate to post this as it seems too good to be true. > I just started a new job. As you can imagine I was rather > eager to get a look at the medical plan. I can get long > term disability coverage amounting to 75% of my income > WITHOUT having to divulge any information. I’m still > stunned. Completely gob-smacked. I was shaking when I read > it the first 20 times. > And yes, you can bet your ass I got confirmation in writing. > I actually get tears in my eyes when I consider what this > means to my future. > Sometimes, just sometimes, one of us gets a break. (and all > the drug (no limits) and dental coverage starts immediately. > f… me.) > jack n dalton wrote: > > WARNING! > > If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a > > pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation. > > Jack > > "Lynn Parker" <Brite…@btinternet.com
wrote in message
> > news:9lv18q$evq$1@neptunium.btinternet.com… > > > hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it
for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking
stick,i,m
a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell
me
more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i
have
progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx — Eliz. ^^^^^ Meet you in Malkovich in one hour.
Response:
In article <9lv18q$ev…@neptunium.btinternet.com
, Lynn Parker
<Brite…@btinternet.com
wrote: hi am amy and i was told in april this year i had m.s,they say i,ve had it for prob 10yrs,i had a severe attack and i,m left with a walking stick,i,m a mother of 3children,and i,m only just turned 29,can anyone please tell me more about this as i can,t understand wots happ to my body,they say i have progressive m.s.wotever that is?thank you ……………take care everyone xx
Hi Amy. *So* sorry about your diagnosis. You’re the same age as my daughter. She was diagnosed 10 years ago at age 19, although in retrospect we can see symptoms that dated back to when she was 10 or 11. Do as others here have suggested … research; stay here, read and ask questions. Learn, learn, learn as much as you can. "They" say you have progressive MS. Have "they" put you on any kind of treatment program? Have you ever been treated with steroids? Have *they* seen you have more than one "attack/episode"? Stay here Hon. Listen to what folks have to say. Join in the silly stuff we do too (or not, depending on your mood at the moment). Ask questions. The answers you’ll get here are based on personal experience as opposed to "medical certainty" … there’s no such thing as "medical certainty". Even experiences can differ, so take what you read with a grain of salt … weigh, measure, compare … and most of all, ask questions. I’m sorry you had to come looking for us, but very glad you found us. Welcome to the family. Love, hugs n prayers, P. This message has been brought to you by: / / / ^~~^ / / ( ” ) / { } / " " YE OLDE BAT PamY – Spokesmom for Jennie who has MS Visit our ASMS Friends Photo Albums at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=872994&a=6352035 http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=872994&a=10042305
Response:
If you agree that you had it for 10 years, they may say it was a
pre-existing condition and you will get nothing in compensation.<< A "pre-existing" condition, for insurance purpposes usually has to be *diagnosed. Hell, a person could have had almost any condition for years… (cancer, heart condition, etc.) But until it’s diagnosed, it’s not "there" as far as the insurance goes. My neuro put "probably had for 20 or more years" on my dx. It didn’t change anything. I still got my disability. Stupidly, what the insurance co’s lawyers went after with me, was that I had been dxed with TMJ several years earlier, and they wanted to disallow my whole claim, saying I had "lied" on my sign-up form about not having *arthritis… silly asses! It didn’t work — not after they received my letter about them having no medical knowledge whatsoever and merely quoting (verbatim) a totally unrelated paragraph, right out of the Merck Manual. They never even bothered with the "MS for 20 years" thing… I still got the insurance — finally! Judith
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
Nuisance Crows
Question:
<Smeggy. Now there’s a name for you! How on earth did you <dream that one up? < Red Dwarf? Vicki — Family and Divorce Mediation Resources http://xcski.com/~mediator/
Response:
<Smeggy. Now there’s a name for you! How on earth did you <dream that one up? < Red Dwarf? Vicki — Family and Divorce Mediation Resources http://xcski.com/~mediator/
All Right!!! More Smeg-Heads!
Response:
Smeggy like as in smegma? nasty nasty nasty Ginger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Smeggy. Now there’s a name for you! How on earth did you dream that one up? Ever heard of a wheelie bin.. big bin on wheels for ease of transportation? Work like a charm. — BiteMe This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest. Allan
Response:
Smeggy. Now there’s a name for you! How on earth did you dream that one up? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever heard of a wheelie bin.. big bin on wheels for ease of transportation? Work like a charm. — BiteMe This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest. Allan
Response:
Ever heard of a wheelie bin.. big bin on wheels for ease of transportation? Work like a charm. — BiteMe
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest. Allan
Response:
This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest. Allan
Response:
< <They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my <property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is <a long way from the house to the pickup place). < Containers with wheels, to make them easier to transport. http://www.rubbermaid.com/UnbelievableProducts/frames.asp Crows aren’t deterred by much, from what I know. Vicki — Family and Divorce Mediation Resources http://xcski.com/~mediator/
Response:
The crows in my yard are getting alarmingly large, as big as chickens! They are always at my garbage too
Response:
The crows in my yard are getting alarmingly large, as big as chickens! They are always at my garbage too
I’ve noticed how large crows are getting too. I’ve seen some surprisingly large ones.
Response:
The crows in my yard are getting alarmingly large, as big as chickens! They are always at my garbage too I’ve noticed how large crows are getting too. I’ve seen some surprisingly large ones.
Are you sure they aren’t Ravens, they look like crows, but are much larger. I don’t know where you are or if they are in your area. Sharon
Response:
The crows in my yard are getting alarmingly large, as big as chickens! They are always at my garbage too
Evidently your garbage is full of vitamins & growth hormones – or maybe they’re Ravens! Jay
Response:
Put the bags in large trash cans with lids, and then carry the bags only out to the curb on trash day. Dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest. Allan
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest.
Allan You might try putting a Hoot Owl decoy or scarecrow out there. Bill
Response:
Shoot ‘em. Well, that depends on where you live. If you are in an urban/suburban area and they are way to many of them, then shoot ‘em. In many urban and suburban areas, they are overpopulated becauase they have responded well to human habitation (like rats, pigeons, cockroaches, starlings, sparrows, etc.), and need to be kept in check since we humans tend to throw the ecology all out of whack wherever we build our cities and towns. If you are in an area where they are at normal population levels, then follow the advice of previous posters and definitely don’t shoot them. jd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This year I have a famly of crows neslling in my trees. Don’t mind that as this big birds are interesting to watch. Unfortunately, they have a bad habit that is driving me to take drastic action. They peck through my plastic garbage bags spreading the contents over my property. ( I do not use containers when I put the garbage out as it is a long way from the house to the pickup place). Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. Thanks for your interest. Allan
Response:
Put the bags in large trash cans with lids, and then carry the bags only out to the curb on trash day.
I wish it were that simple. I’ve often put my garbage out, gone back in the house to get my car keys, and come out minutes later to find the crows (perhaps they are ravens) tearing the trash apart. (and we’re not permitted to use cans in our neighborhood, unfortunately)
Response:
The crows in my yard are getting alarmingly large, as big as chickens! They are always at my garbage too
My 24 pound putty cat who loves to kill things (sadly) caught a huge crow and brought it in. Biggest bird I’ve ever been close to. Had a hard time getting it to the wild animal clinic for patching and freedom Ginger
Response:
How about a fake but very realistic looking dog or cat set next to the bags? Crows and ravens are extremely smart birds (I think they can talk like a parrot too), so I might be grasping at straws. Dave
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put the bags in large trash cans with lids, and then carry the bags only out to the curb on trash day. I wish it were that simple. I’ve often put my garbage out, gone back in the house to get my car keys, and come out minutes later to find the crows (perhaps they are ravens) tearing the trash apart. (and we’re not permitted to use cans in our neighborhood, unfortunately)
Response:
I forgot to add, how about calling a wildlife refuge for advice? They may have some good ideas. Here’s a link for wildlife rehab centers in each state. http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/contact.htm Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about a fake but very realistic looking dog or cat set next to the bags? Crows and ravens are extremely smart birds (I think they can talk like a parrot too), so I might be grasping at straws. Dave Put the bags in large trash cans with lids, and then carry the bags only out to the curb on trash day. I wish it were that simple. I’ve often put my garbage out, gone back in the house to get my car keys, and come out minutes later to find the crows (perhaps they are ravens) tearing the trash apart. (and we’re not permitted to use cans in our neighborhood, unfortunately)
Response:
Any suggestions as to how to keep the crows away from the bags, even from my property if necessary? I have been spraying the bags with ammonia and pine oil, has not helped at all. You might try putting a Hoot Owl decoy or scarecrow out there. Bill
I used to work with a couple of guys that used Owl decoys to attract crows when they went crow hunting. Often times they didn’t even have to hoot an owl call and the crows would fly in to attack the decoy. Ron P. S. It’s probably a silly question but, do birds have a sense of smell?
Response:
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
Oxycontin for pain
Question:
LisalisaA <lisali…@aol.com123
wrote in message
news:20010503083227.08786.00001711@ng-mk1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
I read through it and one has to have a skeptic mindset and realize that reporters will quote things out of context to try and make a point. And that point is not exactly the truth. The article smells of it. well, i know for a fact the state did release that report and both south florida newspapers reported it. you can say what you want about reporters,
but
it seems to me you are guilt of what you accuse the media of by making over-generalized statement and accusing all reporters of taking things out
of
context. im a reporter and i have never once done that. i have never once been
asked by
a source to run a correction because of that. out of curiosity, do you have scientific fact the ny times was wrong. or
is it
just your gut feeling that global warming is not happening, as you’ve
stated
before? Be Well, Lisa
You’ve seen us vote, now watch us make ridiculous sensational media hype out of meaningless statistics. Perhaps tobacco and alcohol ought to be in the PDR? Then maybe someone in the FLA Dept of Hysterical Information would publish a report on it!!! Lol… Amor Y Anarchia!!! Jim
Response:
maybe a little defensive. it’s been a bad week for press bashing in my neck of the woods. and rich touched a nerve. like with any profession i believe there are irresponsible journalists. but i know there are a lot of good journalists doing good work and shining flashlights where they need to be shined. sometimes it’s frustrating to see someone take such a broad slam as rich has more than once. anyway, believe me, i know the pharm. industry is hard ball and has been shown to be sleazy and not always have the patient’s best interest at the heart of the way it does business. i have to look no further than the fact that i cant use rebif. i also know the way we treat addicts is deplorable. sorry to all for being grumpy about this. like i said, a bad week for press bashing here. Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
"Jim Stinnett" <moto-r…@mindspring.com
wrote in message
news:9ctc9d$mri$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net…
just funning of course, but is anyone aware of the hysterical rantings of the press on this new found menace? Jim
I’ve been hearing a lot about what a menace this stuff has become. I’ve seen rantings on MSNBC and a couple of the local sappy TV stations around here in CT. Hysterical is a good word for it. I can just see myself now….trying to run after knocking off a local pharmacy. The local police could finish their donut and coffee before I got out of the parking lot john p. in CT
Response:
You go Michael, I couldn’t agree more, great post. One of my friends, a wonderful person, was shot and killed and his murder is walking the streets. I also knew his killer and words can’t describe this creep and now he’s out among us, while folks like Robert Downey Jr. are in jail, for what, substance abuse? Unbelievable, I just don’t understand. As far as drug addicts, you can’t save people from themselves and we can keep sending them to prisons and rehab centers but…. "Addicts are people who live to take drugs…. Patients are people who take drugs to live." And don’t get me started on corporations and pharmaceutical companies they are ruthless, look what they have done to the NMSS. My last issue was loaded with more ads for the ABC’s than info. It’s all about earnings and that mean green, the mighty dollar. Cest la vie. Shell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Michael wrote:
I’d like to chime in here for just a minute. The article doesn’t mention (as it should) that Oxycontin is still an extremely minor street-addiction problem. MSContin (known on the street as "Peelers") is available for illicit consumption in just about any quantity you (any one of you out there) might desire, probably within a couple hundred yards of home if you live in a town of over a thousand people. It’s also responsible for *vastly* more addiction problems and many more overdose deaths that Oxycontin. These troubles with MSContin have also been the case for *years*. The stuff’s available here in Queen Charlotte City (pop. 600,) for anyone who wants it. Same goes for any town or city, small or large, anywhere in North America. You can buy it at the bar here. It’s a rather small but crucially important part of our economy. Local junkies *depend* on that supply for their maintenance in places as isolated as this. The only reason anyone’s making a stink about Oxycontin (which nothing but large doses of sustained-release Percodan,) is that it’s "new"… even if the word means just a newly released form of a fairly old drug. Whose idea was it to call this Oxycontin thing an emergency anyhow? (It wasn’t "the press", you can bet the farm on *that*.) Answer that, and you’ll know why a problem so small (I admit it’s tragic, but let’s be *real* about the size here, OK?) suddenly gets painted safety-orange and paraded down Main Street. How come no one’s making 10 times the stink about morphine when it’s causing 1000 times the trouble? Call me cynical, but I’ll betcha pharma-corporate money has rather a lot to do with it. No, we shouldn’t ignore the state report. We should do something about addiction… *all* addiction… something other than repeatedly sweeping it (and its victims) under the rug until the smell of decaying carcasses forces us to abandon the neighbourhood. BTW… if it involves building more prisons, count me out. #:^) — ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net -=| Livin’ on Island Time |=- "LisalisaA" <lisali…@aol.com123 wrote in message news:20010503202734.11200.00001875@ng-cc1.aol.com… if you read the article closely it says oxycontin is fine when used properly. so is glue. and aeresol sprays. the point is oxycontin is addictive as hell and everyone should know that and be careful. no one is saying they should stop prescribing it for legit uses. it’s not a baseless scare either. parents should know this is out there. everyone should know. should we wait til it kills as many people as alcohol to report on it? should we ignore the state report? if journalist were as in cahoots with the money people as all the conspiracy theorists accuse us of, all of my friends wouldnt be getting laid off right about now. you are entitled to your opinion. so is rich. i just think if you are going to poke holes in a news report and accuse the writer of taking things out of context, and condemn the profession wholesale, you (not you specifically here) ought to have some facts to back up what you are saying. that’s all im saying. when the press is wrong i am the first to admit it. but some of the knee jerk shoot the messenger stuff on this board really ticks me off. ok, i am off my soap box and moving along. Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
Oh my gawd Jim, I stopped taking mine and….and….nothing happened, can you believe it, no shakes, no robbing old ladies, no breaking into to pharmacies. I was so disappointed because I thought it would relieve my fatigue and give me the energy to do all the things Oxy-addicts do for this highly addictive drug. <g
Shell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim Stinnett wrote:
Reno Native 38 <renonativ…@aol.com wrote in message news:20010502124316.06899.00001555@ng-bh1.aol.com… Hi everyone! I read that some of you take Oxycontin for pain. Could you please tell me how many milligrams you take and how often? I went to my doc yesterday and he gave me 20 mg and I’m supposed to take it every 12 hours. It does not seem to be helping my head at all. Oh my gawd!!! Haven’t you been reading? You will be breaking into pharmacies and robbing old ladies in wheelchairs when you get so horribly addicted to this killer narcotic that you will do anything just to get more. Oh no , oh dear, oh my! Haven’t you seen all the press and media coverage of this heroin in sheep’s clothing? Oh jeeez, and you ‘ll end up living in Virginia or maybe even Maine where all the OXY-Addicts are….. …… just funning of course, but is anyone aware of the hysterical rantings of the press on this new found menace? Jim
Response:
No worries Lisa, I think PWMS have to be on guard, it’s the nature of the disease. Let’s face facts, we’ve got people trying to sell us miracle cures and potions, even the media gets in the act and I’m not saying all reporters are on the take, we need you guys, it’s just like anything else, it’s hard to tell the good from the bad. I know I have become a bit cynical and suspicious and who wouldn’t when you’re own body is attacking itself…..I guess we sometimes feel the need to attack something else….So don’t take it to heart, we’re just a bunch of swiss cheese brains. ;
) Shell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -LisalisaA wrote:
maybe a little defensive. it’s been a bad week for press bashing in my neck of the woods. and rich touched a nerve. like with any profession i believe there are irresponsible journalists. but i know there are a lot of good journalists doing good work and shining flashlights where they need to be shined. sometimes it’s frustrating to see someone take such a broad slam as rich has more than once. anyway, believe me, i know the pharm. industry is hard ball and has been shown to be sleazy and not always have the patient’s best interest at the heart of the way it does business. i have to look no further than the fact that i cant use rebif. i also know the way we treat addicts is deplorable. sorry to all for being grumpy about this. like i said, a bad week for press bashing here. Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
I read through it and one has to have a skeptic mindset and realize that reporters will quote things out of context to try and make a point. And that point is not exactly the truth. The article smells of it.
well, i know for a fact the state did release that report and both south florida newspapers reported it. you can say what you want about reporters, but it seems to me you are guilt of what you accuse the media of by making over-generalized statement and accusing all reporters of taking things out of context. im a reporter and i have never once done that. i have never once been asked by a source to run a correction because of that. out of curiosity, do you have scientific fact the ny times was wrong. or is it just your gut feeling that global warming is not happening, as you’ve stated before? Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
I decided to reduce my daily dose of Oxycontin which is 40mg daily to 30 and continued to lower it without any problem, and now I know I could stop all of it but then I would be in terrible pain, so what am I trying to prove? So what if I’m physically dependent, when there is a cure for MS, I’ll quit the pain meds but why should I do that now and why should you? We have a legitamate reason for taking these meds. I personally think the media has once again published a prescribed hysteria similiar to Valium, Marijuana, etc. There are so many meds and OTC substances that can be abused like tylenol, glue, etc. and you can’t save people from themselves, which is ecspecially true for PWMS. ;
)
(just jokin’) Patients are people who take drugs to live. People are people who live to take drugs. So no worries jkl, I know you can control your meds but don’t let pain control you. I remember waking up crying and wondering if life was worth living because of the pain. I know I could quit my meds and go back to that but…no thanks. Shell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MsWompa wrote:
my dose fluctuates between 10-30mg in the AM and 20 or 30mg in the PM. I don’t know how helpful it is.. I don’t want to go higher.. infact I am trying to go down and see if I physically can take myself off the drug without experiencing withdrawl. call it control but I want to know if I can control my med usage instead of it controlling me. j jkl
Response:
Hi Lisa, I take what I read with a grain of salt, preferably from the rim of a frozen margarita ;
) but really, this Oxycontin scare has reached dare I
say, epidemic proportions. Hmmm, compare all the deaths world wide caused by Oxycontin to Alcohol, Glue, etc. I’d like to see those stats. Or how about the why where and when marijuana became illegal and or perhaps how the drug companies support the MS society, ‘what’s a little lie between friends’ (read that on Reuters ?) The MS society use to tell us to steer clear of experimental treatments and now they embrace them. ….perhaps that’s why many of us are a tad leery of the press but no worries we still love you. :
) Shell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -LisalisaA wrote:
I read through it and one has to have a skeptic mindset and realize that reporters will quote things out of context to try and make a point. And that point is not exactly the truth. The article smells of it. well, i know for a fact the state did release that report and both south florida newspapers reported it. you can say what you want about reporters, but it seems to me you are guilt of what you accuse the media of by making over-generalized statement and accusing all reporters of taking things out of context. im a reporter and i have never once done that. i have never once been asked by a source to run a correction because of that. out of curiosity, do you have scientific fact the ny times was wrong. or is it just your gut feeling that global warming is not happening, as you’ve stated before? Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
if you read the article closely it says oxycontin is fine when used properly. so is glue. and aeresol sprays. the point is oxycontin is addictive as hell and everyone should know that and be careful. no one is saying they should stop prescribing it for legit uses. it’s not a baseless scare either. parents should know this is out there. everyone should know. should we wait til it kills as many people as alcohol to report on it? should we ignore the state report? if journalist were as in cahoots with the money people as all the conspiracy theorists accuse us of, all of my friends wouldnt be getting laid off right about now. you are entitled to your opinion. so is rich. i just think if you are going to poke holes in a news report and accuse the writer of taking things out of context, and condemn the profession wholesale, you (not you specifically here) ought to have some facts to back up what you are saying. that’s all im saying. when the press is wrong i am the first to admit it. but some of the knee jerk shoot the messenger stuff on this board really ticks me off. ok, i am off my soap box and moving along. Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
I’d like to chime in here for just a minute. The article doesn’t mention (as it should) that Oxycontin is still an extremely minor street-addiction problem. MSContin (known on the street as "Peelers") is available for illicit consumption in just about any quantity you (any one of you out there) might desire, probably within a couple hundred yards of home if you live in a town of over a thousand people. It’s also responsible for *vastly* more addiction problems and many more overdose deaths that Oxycontin. These troubles with MSContin have also been the case for *years*. The stuff’s available here in Queen Charlotte City (pop. 600,) for anyone who wants it. Same goes for any town or city, small or large, anywhere in North America. You can buy it at the bar here. It’s a rather small but crucially important part of our economy. Local junkies *depend* on that supply for their maintenance in places as isolated as this. The only reason anyone’s making a stink about Oxycontin (which nothing but large doses of sustained-release Percodan,) is that it’s "new"… even if the word means just a newly released form of a fairly old drug. Whose idea was it to call this Oxycontin thing an emergency anyhow? (It wasn’t "the press", you can bet the farm on *that*.) Answer that, and you’ll know why a problem so small (I admit it’s tragic, but let’s be *real* about the size here, OK?) suddenly gets painted safety-orange and paraded down Main Street. How come no one’s making 10 times the stink about morphine when it’s causing 1000 times the trouble? Call me cynical, but I’ll betcha pharma-corporate money has rather a lot to do with it. No, we shouldn’t ignore the state report. We should do something about addiction… *all* addiction… something other than repeatedly sweeping it (and its victims) under the rug until the smell of decaying carcasses forces us to abandon the neighbourhood. BTW… if it involves building more prisons, count me out. #:^) — ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net
-=| Livin’ on Island Time |=- "LisalisaA" <lisali…@aol.com123
wrote in message
news:20010503202734.11200.00001875@ng-cc1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
if you read the article closely it says oxycontin is fine when used properly. so is glue. and aeresol sprays. the point is oxycontin is addictive as hell and everyone should know that and be careful. no one is saying they should stop prescribing it for legit uses. it’s not a baseless scare either. parents should know this is out there. everyone should know. should we wait til it kills as many people as alcohol to report on it? should we ignore the state report? if journalist were as in cahoots with the money people as all the conspiracy theorists accuse us of, all of my friends wouldnt be getting laid off right about now. you are entitled to your opinion. so is rich. i just think if you are going
to
poke holes in a news report and accuse the writer of taking things out of context, and condemn the profession wholesale, you (not you specifically here) ought to have some facts to back up what you are saying. that’s all im saying. when the press is wrong i am the first to admit it. but some of the knee jerk shoot the messenger stuff on this board really ticks me off. ok, i am off my soap box and moving along. Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
Reno Native 38 <renonativ…@aol.com
wrote in message
news:20010502124316.06899.00001555@ng-bh1.aol.com…
Hi everyone! I read that some of you take Oxycontin for pain. Could you please tell me
how
many milligrams you take and how often? I went to my doc yesterday and he
gave
me 20 mg and I’m supposed to take it every 12 hours. It does not seem to
be
helping my head at all.
Oh my gawd!!! Haven’t you been reading? You will be breaking into pharmacies and robbing old ladies in wheelchairs when you get so horribly addicted to this killer narcotic that you will do anything just to get more. Oh no , oh dear, oh my! Haven’t you seen all the press and media coverage of this heroin in sheep’s clothing? Oh jeeez, and you ‘ll end up living in Virginia or maybe even Maine where all the OXY-Addicts are….. …… just funning of course, but is anyone aware of the hysterical rantings of the press on this new found menace? Jim
Response:
I hope you’re not being defensive about this, Lisa… (it’s hard to tell just reading.) I’m on your side. :) You don’t need to defend "the press" here… not against me at any rate. FWIW, you’ve hit the nail on the head with almost everything you’ve said here… especially concerning addiction and paying attention when people die. What I was calling "pharma-corporate money" wasn’t about conspiracy. It’s just plain everyday competition. Give a new drug a bad name early and it will have a harder time competing with the old. And that would best be done by wrecking its rep with the medicos first. I’ve sold drugs on both sides of the law, and I know how pharmaceuticals are sold to doctors… it’s ugly and its deceitful, and in many ways its about undermining the reputation of the competitor’s product. I’d like to say that selling pot is the work of living saints in comparison, but it ain’t so… the reasons for the ugly are very different, but no less potent for the differences. Pharmaceutical morphine is very very big business. Percodan (oxycodone bitartrate) has been on the margins of morphine’s market for over 3 decades, and never quite broke into the inner circle until Oxycontin’s introduction. Messing with morphine’s market will not be taken lightly, and because they are being so effectively lobbied (better than *any* other group… ask around) the medical community will be the ones doing almost all the talking for both sides of the battle. As for enterprising reporters digging *this* sorta stuff up… well, I think you’ll agree it’s old news. It’s been done to death here in Canada, and no doubt in the US as well. Besides, "the press" would be better serving their readers digging into FDA approval processes… something they’ve done rather well the past couple of years and which is bearing nice, juicy fruit these days. — ((((((((((U)))))))))) Michael <muirh…@island.net
-=| Livin’ on Island Time |=- "LisalisaA" <lisali…@aol.com123
wrote in message
news:20010503232219.11034.00001595@ng-cc1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
yes, we as a society should do something about addiction. weve all written thousands of stories about that and will continue to do so. it’s a problem society doesnt want to look at or deal with. and when they do look at it, the tendency is to blame the addict — even when the addict is a member of their own family. it’s an attitude i rail against. prisons are certainly not the answer. i can tell you tho, the press will continue to write about "new drugs"
people
die from. we dont have the luxury of deciding when something is only a minor level street problem. that might be the case, and yes, context should be a
part
of every story. but 152 deaths is 152 deaths, and we’re always going to report on that. i dont see the harm in doing that. and if pharma corporate money is involved in this scare, i can assure you it’s going to the medical community, which is releasing these reports and holding the news conferences, and not the press. the doctors might be ratcheting this up, but 152 deaths is still 152 deaths. and if there is some kind of
conspiracy
afoot, some enterprising reporter somewhere — prolly the ny times or the la times, where they still have sizable staffs — will dig that up and report it. that takes time tho. and in the meantime, people will be reporting about the 152 deaths. that’s what we’re taught is the right thing to do. put the info out there. but you are absolutely right, there should be context at all times, tho. Call me cynical, but I’ll betcha pharma-corporate money has rather a lot to do with it. No, we shouldn’t ignore the state report. We should do something about addiction… *all* addiction… something other than repeatedly sweeping it (and its victims) under the rug until the smell of decaying carcasses forces us to abandon the neighbourhood. BTW… if it involves building more prisons, count me out. #:^) Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
yes, we as a society should do something about addiction. weve all written thousands of stories about that and will continue to do so. it’s a problem society doesnt want to look at or deal with. and when they do look at it, the tendency is to blame the addict — even when the addict is a member of their own family. it’s an attitude i rail against. prisons are certainly not the answer. i can tell you tho, the press will continue to write about "new drugs" people die from. we dont have the luxury of deciding when something is only a minor level street problem. that might be the case, and yes, context should be a part of every story. but 152 deaths is 152 deaths, and we’re always going to report on that. i dont see the harm in doing that. and if pharma corporate money is involved in this scare, i can assure you it’s going to the medical community, which is releasing these reports and holding the news conferences, and not the press. the doctors might be ratcheting this up, but 152 deaths is still 152 deaths. and if there is some kind of conspiracy afoot, some enterprising reporter somewhere — prolly the ny times or the la times, where they still have sizable staffs — will dig that up and report it. that takes time tho. and in the meantime, people will be reporting about the 152 deaths. that’s what we’re taught is the right thing to do. put the info out there. but you are absolutely right, there should be context at all times, tho.
Call me cynical, but I’ll betcha pharma-corporate money has rather a lot to do with it. No, we shouldn’t ignore the state report. We should do something about addiction… *all* addiction… something other than repeatedly sweeping it (and its victims) under the rug until the smell of decaying carcasses forces us to abandon the neighbourhood. BTW… if it involves building more prisons, count me out. #:^)
Be Well, Lisa to send email, remove 123 from my address. "Please explain to me the scientific nature of ‘The Whammy’" – Scully "The Daily News asks her for the dope. She says, ‘Man, the dope’s that there’s still hope.’"- Springsteen
Response:
The physical dependency on the drug is a strong motivator. As with all drugs of this nature, it is prudent to keep an emergency stash of it. rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -johnp wrote:
"Reno Native 38" <renonativ…@aol.com wrote in message news:20010502124316.06899.00001555@ng-bh1.aol.com… Hi everyone! Hey Monica, Sorry I’m late getting to this…. I’ve been on Oxycontin for 6 – 7 months and do the 40 size 3 times a day. It is the greatest thing for pain that I have ever seen! Not to mention the "side effects"…It actually gives me a little bit of energy and really improves my outlook on life (gotta love those narcotics!). Gotta be careful of running out before your refill comes due. Withdrawal with this stuff is UGLY!!! john p. in CT
Response:
"Reno Native 38" <renonativ…@aol.com
wrote in message
news:20010502124316.06899.00001555@ng-bh1.aol.com…
Hi everyone!
Hey Monica, Sorry I’m late getting to this…. I’ve been on Oxycontin for 6 – 7 months and do the 40 size 3 times a day. It is the greatest thing for pain that I have ever seen! Not to mention the "side effects"…It actually gives me a little bit of energy and really improves my outlook on life (gotta love those narcotics!). Gotta be careful of running out before your refill comes due. Withdrawal with this stuff is UGLY!!! john p. in CT
Response:
I read through it and one has to have a skeptic mindset and realize that reporters will quote things out of context to try and make a point. And that point is not exactly the truth. The article smells of it. It is just like the ny times article about open water near the north pole. They said that it was sure fire evidence of global warming. The fact of the matter is that Cmdr. Peary, in the early 1900’s, was thwarted by open expanse of water so large that he and his team could not go around it on their journey to pole. rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -LisalisaA wrote:
this article from the fort lauderdale sun sentinel http://www.sun-sentinel.com it might interest some of you folks. i have not read it all the way thru yet. Florida had 152 fatal overdoses of OxyContin in six months By Nancy McVicar Health Writer Posted May 2 2001 Florida recorded 152 deaths attributed to overdoses of OxyContin and other morphine-like prescription drugs in the last six months of 2000, a report by the state’s medical examiners shows. The total was 23 more than died from cocaine in the same period. Abuse of OxyContin, a synthetic sustained-release morphine, has been on the rise in Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties even as more patients and doctors realize its powerful and beneficial effects in fighting chronic pain. Area emergency rooms are seeing overdoses involving the drug, as well as people coming in asking for pain drugs. Drug detox programs also are seeing more people who have become addicted to it. "We’re actually seeing a lot of drug-seeking behavior," said Dr. Nabil El Sanadi, chairman of emergency medicine at Broward General Medical Center. "These are patients that may have an actual physical problem, possibly a history of chronic back problems, sickle cell disease, people with cancer." El Sanadi said it is sometimes difficult for staff to tell whether the patient who claims to be in pain has a dependence problem or really is suffering. Too sophisticated to be made illegally, the main source of the drug for abusers has been pharmacy thefts — 14 in South Florida in five months — home burglaries or illicitly obtained prescriptions. "Pretty much anybody using an opiate, whether they’ve been addicted to heroin or whatever, is now involved in OxyContin," said Dr. Thomas Macaluso, medical director for behavioral health and detox-unit director at Memorial Regional Hospital in Hollywood. "It’s certainly accessible on the street, and it doesn’t require [injection to get high]." But for thousands of patients with moderate to severe chronic pain — the people the drug was intended to treat — OxyContin has been a godsend. "I believe anything can be abused by drug abusers, but it’s helped innumerable people who couldn’t get relief before," said Dr. Pamela Sutton, director of palliative care for the North Broward Hospital District and medical director of Gold Coast Hospice. "It’s not something you take because you sprained your finger, but when prescribed correctly and taken correctly it has been of enormous benefit to people with chronic pain." The drug comes in different strengths and is meant to be taken every 12 hours to give pain relief to cancer patients and others with serious pain without the peaks and valleys of drugs that last only four hours, Sutton said. The manufacturer, Purdue Pharma, of Stamford, Conn., warns against chewing the tablets because dangerously high amounts of the drug will be released all at once. People who are using the drug to get high are doing exactly that, or grinding it up, sniffing it, and even mixing it in liquid and injecting it, said Dr. Lee Hearn, chief toxicologist at the Miami-Dade Medical Examiner’s Office. "People have discovered it gives them a high like heroin, and it’s comparable in potency, so they will either crush it up or inject it." Hearn reviewed the drug overdose deaths in Miami-Dade for all of last year and so far this year and found 22 deaths in which oxycodone, the class of drugs that includes OxyContin, was the cause. The drug was present in about 20 others, but was in combination with other drugs including cocaine, heroin and prescription drugs, he said. "I certainly would not advocate eliminating it from the pharmacist [arsenal]," Hearn said. "People need to have their pain controlled, and it’s one of the best things around. But as with all narcotics, you just need to control who gets it and how." Broward County also has recorded an increase in the number of overdose deaths in which oxycodone played a role, said Dr. Harold Schueler, chief toxicologist for the medical examiner. In 47 cases during 2000, 10 of them suicides, the deceased had taken an oxycodone drug in combination with other drugs. In five cases, the oxycodone was the only drug ingested. One of those was a suicide and the others were ruled accidental deaths, Schueler said. So far in 2001, only eight drug overdose deaths have been confirmed, all with combinations of drugs. But Schueler said the office has a backlog of cases waiting for toxicology results, so there could be more. On Monday, Dr. Lisa Flannagan, Palm Beach County medical examiner, said OxyContin may be responsible for as many as 14 overdose deaths there just in the month of April. "OxyContin is extremely dangerous when used by individuals unfamiliar with the drug, especially in situations where the drug is injected or snorted," Flannagan said. The statewide medical examiners’ report, released April 18, included some good news — a 3 percent decrease in cocaine-overdose deaths from 1999, and only a slight increase in heroin deaths. Oxycodone deaths exceeded both in the six-month period. During the last six months of 2000, the report found 2,669 people died in Florida with cocaine, heroin and/or other drugs in their bodies. The statewide Office of Drug Control is trying to refine drug-death reporting to sort out oxycodone from hydrocodone, a similar class of drugs. "While we are encouraged to see a reversal in the negative trends of such traditional drugs as cocaine and heroin, we must also put a check on the growing threat from club drugs and from the illegal use of prescription drugs," James McDonough, the Office of Drug Control’s chief, said when the report was released. A spokesman for the drug control office said, "It is not understated that lots of people are taking it and getting killed by it. It is a difficult problem." Nancy McVicar can be reached at nmcvi…@sun-sentinel.com or 954-356-4593. Copyright
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
Post mastectomy Pain Syndrome
Question:
Hi All This pain is related to injuring the nerve during surgery. It is a constant burning pain around the surgery scar and around the armpit it can also radiate to the shoulder and down the back. I have had this pain for 5 years since my second mastectomy , most Dr are not aware of the syndrome and women are send home with antidepressants. It took a visit to a young Dr when I was on vacation to find out what my problem was , when I told him my symptoms , he immediately said you are suffering from nerve damage , now I’m on pain medication and a muscle relaxant. Does anybody relate to this same symptoms? Doris in Colorado
Response:
Doris, I experienced something similar when I had my mastectomy in July. About six days after surgery I started feeling a painful burning sensation in and around my armpit. At first I thought I had abraded the skin while shaving, but there was no redness, nothing. I then thought that maybe the skin was stretched because of the scar. I started putting Curel on it to keep the skin moisturized. When I had my next post-surgical follow-up appointment a few days later, I mentioned it to my surgeon. He knew right away that it was nerve damage. I was very lucky – it only took about four weeks for it to go away, but it was very uncomfortable while I had it. It must be very difficult for you to have had this pain for five years. I’m glad the new doctor gave you something to help with the symptoms. Laura – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All This pain is related to injuring the nerve during surgery. It is a constant burning pain around the surgery scar and around the armpit it can also radiate to the shoulder and down the back. I have had this pain for 5 years since my second mastectomy , most Dr are not aware of the syndrome and women are send home with antidepressants. It took a visit to a young Dr when I was on vacation to find out what my problem was , when I told him my symptoms , he immediately said you are suffering from nerve damage , now I’m on pain medication and a muscle relaxant. Does anybody relate to this same symptoms? Doris in Colorado
Response:
This nerve pain may be addressed with a drug called Neurontin. Ask your doctor about it – and its not unusual to have to take more at bed time than in the a.m. Also, if you can try to not guard that arm, and slowly begin swinging it at your side, as your would the other one. Topical ointments, etc will not help nerve pain. Its just part and parcel of this type of surgery. I know, my second mastectomy left me with a feeling like my triceps had a blow torch about 2" away from it….it was awful. I’ve mentioned this before, but if women would utilize aquatic exercise (mild) pre-mastectomy and post as soon as possible the lymphedema will be greatly decreased in the arms and hands – it does seem to gather however, just under the back of the axilla, which is the area only a well-fitting bra pulls in; I’ve found a sports bra is perfect, and I can slip in the prosthesis if I want to use them (rarely however), and I swim 3-4 times weekly as an Arthritis Foundation Certified instructor. Call the YMCA/YWCAs and hospital rehab centers to see who has those of us there – or the Arthritis Foundation. Go into a class, and tell the instructor you want to do a good deal of lateral straight and flexed arm work for lymhedema. They are not often familiar with its benefits, so don’t be concerned, email me. Do not do any crawls, and do not swim more than one lap w/o resting for 2 minutes, then swim back for one month, using a side stroke, or back stroke, modified so that you are not raising your arms over your head, but more like that stoke used in synchronized swim, paddling full hands at your sides by your hips then keeping your arms straight, move further outward from your body – but do everything in the water w/o feeling it….you don’t feel the ‘work,’ until afterward, if at all. If you don’t have access to a pool, buy some dyna-bands at a local K-Mart, WallMart, sports shops, or call 1/800/Fitness for their catalog to be RUSHED out to you – and choose a couple of mild, and medium Dyna Bands. Tie a knot in the first one (mild level) and put the knot at your waist height in a door frame and close the door. Then, taking the end of the band, wrap it once around your hand and keeping your elbow at your waist, pull outward on the band and back….gradually building up strength. You can place it in the top of the door too and pull down on it – they send you info – if you’ve already had the mastectomy. Twelve hugs http://bcexperience.com http://detectcancerearly.org
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doris, I experienced something similar when I had my mastectomy in July. About six days after surgery I started feeling a painful burning sensation in and around my armpit. At first I thought I had abraded the skin while shaving, but there was no redness, nothing. I then thought that maybe the skin was stretched because of the scar. I started putting Curel on it to keep the skin moisturized. When I had my next post-surgical follow-up appointment a few days later, I mentioned it to my surgeon. He knew right away that it was nerve damage. I was very lucky – it only took about four weeks for it to go away, but it was very uncomfortable while I had it. It must be very difficult for you to have had this pain for five years. I’m glad the new doctor gave you something to help with the symptoms. Laura Hi All This pain is related to injuring the nerve during surgery. It is a constant burning pain around the surgery scar and around the armpit it can also radiate to the shoulder and down the back. I have had this pain for 5 years since my second mastectomy , most Dr are not aware of the syndrome and women are send home with antidepressants. It took a visit to a young Dr when I was on vacation to find out what my problem was , when I told him my symptoms , he immediately said you are suffering from nerve damage , now I’m on pain medication and a muscle relaxant. Does anybody relate to this same symptoms? Doris in Colorado
Response:
Thanks to everyone that responded to my post( Laura & SmilingStar)This pain is really something , sometimes I think I’m driving my husband crazy , he doesn’t understand what I’m going thru. My children (they are grown, busy with their own lives) they change the conversation when I complain about the pain. The incision look completely heal , so I guess I understand why they think the pain is not real. Anyway my Dr put me on Xanax and it is helping a lot , it seems to take the edge of the pain , my next step is to see a surgeon and see what can be done. Thank you again for been here , I will keep you inform. Doris Ginsberg
Response:
Categories: Rehab Centers | No Comments »
religion, mlm, snakeoil and truthfulness
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes. I did say that. And I’m not ashamed. Hey how much did your neurophsych pay for it? Regards, ko And that matters to you because ? OH wait, I bet you get a percentage from each sale because you wrote the code right?? Why not tell me how much it is? or did you get Free Agent?
Keith uses Microsoft Outlook Express, although he has posted questions about it to appropriate newsgroups when he gets confused by it.
Response:
[ . . . ] MLM organization chart M MMM MMMMM MMMMMMMM Mephistophiles Mannon Mannon Mannon Management Management Management Management Management Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer
Wonderful! Have you ever read the form poems "Orgy" or "Pomander"? E. Penrose
Response:
By the by, I agree with you. Christ is not a pitchman. E. Penrose
Response:
Julian9EHP said: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." " I do *not* interpret that as saying I should use the Lord’s name to promote my business. A local appliance store did that. They closed on Sunday, which is their right, but that was their entire sales pitch. After they downplayed it to "Not open on Sunday for religious reasons" business went UP.
Response:
Julian9EHP said: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." " I do *not* interpret that as saying I should use the Lord’s name to promote my business.
[ . . .] Agreed. I was responding to the poster who wrote that Christians should not publicize Christ. Using Jesus as a pitchman seems to be putting the business first, and Jesus second. E. Penrose
Response:
Keith said to Joe: "Just who is "ASAD" there, Joe? You? And where are your statistics regarding the people in ASAD" Keith, when most of us think of who is part of this group — you don’t come to mind.
Response:
julian said: "Agreed. I was responding to the poster who wrote that Christians should not publicize Christ. " I don’t think it’s going to get us anywhere to take sentences out of their larger context. No Christian would say that, and if the person isn’t a Christian it doesn’t matter what they think Christians should do…
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes. I did say that. And I’m not ashamed. Hey how much did your neurophsych pay for it? Regards, ko And that matters to you because ? OH wait, I bet you get a percentage from each sale because you wrote the code right?? Why not tell me how much it is? or did you get Free Agent? Keith uses Microsoft Outlook Express, although he has posted questions about it to appropriate newsgroups when he gets confused by it.
Micro$ucks Outhouse Excuse you say? Hmmmmmmm…. perhaps that explains it. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry; Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.
Response:
LOL! Is that all you’ve got to say, Joe? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent. Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks…. …and that’s a painful thing to hang by. I *do* so hope we’ll learn how to learn Agent. it’s just so, so…HARD. So COMPLICATED. It makes me want to SCREAM, it’s so durned HARD. Maybe some highly experienced programmer-typer person here could teach us ALL about how to use it. Joe Parsons Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html
Response:
Cheryl George said: " My husband and friends have told me more than once that I talk people out of purchasing the supplement. " But you certainly haven’t done that HERE, have you. All you’ve done here regarding this product is PUSH, PUSH, PUSH for it. Since you sell it … it’s smarmy. You really ought to drop it. Seriously – have you considered that you might have ADHD yourself? You certainly have that "bulldog with a bone" that many of us possess… you can give some dogs a bone. They will really WANT to go in the house, but if the width of the bon prevents it, they won’t drop the bone to get to something better in the kitchen.
Response:
Yes. I did say that. And I’m not ashamed. Hey how much did your neurophsych pay for it? Regards, ko
And that matters to you because ? OH wait, I bet you get a percentage from each sale because you wrote the code right?? Why not tell me how much it is? or did you get Free Agent? Unemployed college kids can’t afford much else now can they? — Nessa –If you are driving at the speed of light and turn on your headlights what happens? www.bestpages.com/nessa
Response:
All you’ve done here regarding this product is PUSH, PUSH, PUSH for it.
That is absolutely untrue. Cheryl does discuss it, now more so when someone else brings it up. But she hasn’t pushed it. She’s defended it, and what has happened to her family as a result of it. It’s counter to what many of us have experienced, however, her life is true to her, and she has a right to discuss it. Since you sell it … it’s smarmy. You really ought to drop it
Personally I think everyone else should just drop it. She will, too. She has shown me that she is here to learn. The fact that she discusses her own life is no different than anyone else here. Seriously – have you considered that you might have ADHD yourself? You certainly have that "bulldog with a bone" that many of us possess… you can give some dogs a bone. They will really WANT to go in the house, but if the width of the bon prevents it, they won’t drop the bone to get to something better in the kitchen.
True of many, me included, but sometimes I think the view is misapplied. — Ann
Response:
Thank you Ann.. Cheryl
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All you’ve done here regarding this product is PUSH, PUSH, PUSH for it. That is absolutely untrue. Cheryl does discuss it, now more so when someone else brings it up. But she hasn’t pushed it. She’s defended it, and what has happened to her family as a result of it. It’s counter to what many of us have experienced, however, her life is true to her, and she has a right to discuss it. Since you sell it … it’s smarmy. You really ought to drop it Personally I think everyone else should just drop it. She will, too. She has shown me that she is here to learn. The fact that she discusses her own life is no different than anyone else here. Seriously – have you considered that you might have ADHD yourself? You certainly have that "bulldog with a bone" that many of us possess… you can give some dogs a bone. They will really WANT to go in the house, but if the width of the bon prevents it, they won’t drop the bone to get to something better in the kitchen. True of many, me included, but sometimes I think the view is misapplied. — Ann
Response:
[ . . . ] Sure, some people want to include Jesus in every aspect of their lives. That doesn’t automatically mean that Jesus would want them to do that. If he wouldn’t, it’d be silly to do so in his name, right?
"I am the Vine, you are the branches. Remain _in_ me . . . " (Emphasis mine.) "If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also . . ." Both quotes are from John. Putting one’s Christianity forth can be vanity as much as it can be "letting Christianity affect all areas of one’s life". The decision should be made carefully.
"You are the light of the world. (. . . ) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." E. Penrose
Response:
Yes. I did say that. And I’m not ashamed. Hey how much did your neurophsych pay for it? Regards, ko – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent. Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks…. I can’t believe he said that….. LOL I just showed my neuropsych ASAD and we got Agent for him…. — Nessa — If nothing ever sticks to TEFLON, how do they make TEFLON stick to the pan? www.bestpages.com/nessa
Response:
That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent.
Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks…. — Ann
Response:
That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent. Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks….
Hmmmmm… In addition, can you please give definitive comparisons of Agent vs Emacs/Gnus? Pros and Cons of each would be much appreciated. Thank you ever so much. — Light, Love, & Laughter, Kitten, Goddess of Mischief "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." – Anonymous "Just for today, do not worry; Just for today, do not anger; Earn your living honestly; Honor your parents, teachers and elders; Show gratitude for every living thing."- Dr. Mikao Usui Before you buy.
Response:
That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent. Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks….
…and that’s a painful thing to hang by. I *do* so hope we’ll learn how to learn Agent. it’s just so, so…HARD. So COMPLICATED. It makes me want to SCREAM, it’s so durned HARD. Maybe some highly experienced programmer-typer person here could teach us ALL about how to use it. Joe Parsons Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html
Response:
That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent. Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks….
I can’t believe he said that….. LOL I just showed my neuropsych ASAD and we got Agent for him…. — Nessa — If nothing ever sticks to TEFLON, how do they make TEFLON stick to the pan? www.bestpages.com/nessa
Response:
Is that all you’ve got to say for yourself tonight, Ann? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That reminds me. I’ve got to go teach you about Agent. Oh, please do. Us newbie Agent users are hanging by tenderhooks…. — Ann
Response:
"DON’T WORRY THAT YOUR KIDS AREN’T LISTENING TO YOU. WORRY THAT THEY ARE ALWAYS WATCHING YOU."
Here’s my perspective on the whole jumbled issue of "alternatives," and the way they are often presented, sold and defended: First, I’m more than willing to stipulate that what Cheryl has said is true–that her kids had problems that seemed resistant to the treatment they had received, and that the problems were less severe at the time they began consuming these food supplements sold by Quest IV (Restores+). I’m also willing to stipulate that Cheryl is completely sincere, and that the things she says are the product of her own sincere belief that they are
true. ***Thank you…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, what’s the problem? First, there is the fact that ASAD has a long-standing, deep suspicion with regard to these products that are typically sold through multi-level marketing ("mlm"). Because the focus of an MLM sales operation is on the development of a sales force from which to derive revenue ("sponsoring"), there tends to be an evangelical zeal in promoting these products and their attendant business opportunity. By law, food supplements can’t be presented as a "cure" or "remedy" for any condition; therefore, distributors MUST rely on personal testimonials in selling them. I have more than passing familiarity with this method of doing business, and can tell you that the atmosphere in the typical MLM sales "rally" is very much like a tent revival–right down to the "amens" and altar calls.
****I’ve never been to a rally ( I guess that’s a convention) QuestIV hasn’t had one. Aim does have them, but I’ve never attended. It is this "faith"–and this emotionalism–that drives these businesses. People need something to believe in, and for many, the near-miracles provided by MLM sales programs are just the ticket. There are many highly successful distributors in MLM sales programs who attribute their success as much to their personal faith and piety as they do to the product and "opportunity."
*****I am not one of those highly successful distributors, I probably give away more than I sell. My husband and friends have told me more than once that I talk people out of purchasing the supplement. I try so hard to make sure "they’re sure" that they really want to buy it…that I talk them out of it. Aim has a membership fee (which I deplore), but I love their product. So to help new Aim customers out I’ll pay the membership fee for them. Yes, there are people who are "cut throat" in this industry just like all the others. But I am not now, nor have I ever been one of them. Money is nice, but it’s not that nice. For many,the line between "The Business" and "Faith" blurs, and it is not at all uncommon to hear one person’s testimony of success in MLM to segue into a personal testimony of religious faith. That close connection between personal faith and promotion of a business opportunity can raise red flags. For many people, talking about personal faith in the same context as trying to sell a product or enlist a prospect into a selling program is offensive;
*****I suppose I can see how people could think this…. But please understand, for some followers of Christ, "He" is a part, of every part of our life. I talk about my relationship with Him in all sorts of ways, relating to all sorts of things….I mean it’s not like I just decided to include Him in this part of my life. It never occurred to me to leave Him out….Except when I thought it might chase non-Christians away. But then I figured, No, I should include Christ, it could possibly be a witnessing tool. this common tactic is tantamount to saying, "I am a Christian; therefore, you should trust me." In a very real sense, this kind of association–even to printing religious symbols like a cross or an ichthus (Christian fish) on brochures and websites–
is implying God’s own endorsement of the product and business.
****Yes, I can better understand this now that you put it this way. To many, this even descends to blasphemy. Another problem is that some of the MLM programs (and distributors) have real problems with truthfulness. In the case of Quest IV (marketer of "Restores+, the product Cheryl sells), there have been significant misrepresentations about hospitals who are allegedly using the product. (Oh, my goodness…I seem to have misspelled L-I-E-S). While MLM companies tend to be
somewhat…coy…about their claims, their disclaimers are invariably delivered with a wink.
****I believe what most people refer to is that the Restores+ product was the same formula used by drug and alchohal rehab centers and hospitals, except it went by the name of SAAVE. Dr. Kenneth Blum came up with the original formula (I think it was Blumm). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then there is the issue of "harm;" if these substances "have no side effects," So if that’s true, what objection could there possibly be to these "alternatives?" First, it’s important to realize that many of the conditions for which these things are sold respond very well to "conventional" treatment. That being the case, withholding effective treatment in favor of unknown, probably ineffective "alternatives" is downright abusive. Is it possible that someone could have gotten "results" with these (or any) supplements or vitamins? Sure–but it’s important to keep in mind that without controlled testing, it’s impossible to make a statement like, "This product helped my ADHD" and be correct. What one *can* say is, "I ate this stuff and at the same time, my ADHD was helped." And strictly speaking, the symptoms that change may not be ADHD symptoms. There could be some comorbid condition So what’s the problem? Why do people in ASAD get so offended? Why do people accuse MLM "salescritters" of lying, when they’re obviously sincere? The answer is that if you make a statement–an assertion–with the objective of convincing others, and you have no *reasonable* belief that what you say is true, then what you are saying might was well be an intentional lie. The effect is the same. THAT is why people in ASAD react as they do. Joe Parsons
***Joe….You did a remarkably good job at giving a fair and balanced explanation. I’m glad you’re here. You make good sense (or at least make it easier for me to understand). Cheryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html
Response:
Dear Joe, Regaring your non-concise (remember, you complained about that, not me) post, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s my perspective on the whole jumbled issue of "alternatives," and the way they are often presented, sold and defended: First, I’m more than willing to stipulate that what Cheryl has said is true–that her kids had problems that seemed resistant to the treatment they had received, and that the problems were less severe at the time they began consuming these food supplements sold by Quest IV (Restores+). I’m also willing to stipulate that Cheryl is completely sincere, and that the things she says are the product of her own sincere belief that they are true. So, what’s the problem? First, there is the fact that ASAD has a long-standing, deep suspicion with regard to these products that are typically sold through multi-level marketing ("mlm").
Just who is "ASAD" there, Joe? You? And where are your statistics regarding the people in ASAD all (100%) having these "long-standing" and "deep suspicions"? That is how your statement reads, Joe. 100% Because the focus of an MLM sales operation is on the development of a sales force from which to derive revenue ("sponsoring"), there tends to be an evangelical zeal in promoting these products and their attendant business opportunity. By law, food supplements can’t be presented as a "cure" or "remedy" for any condition; therefore, distributors MUST rely on personal testimonials in selling them. I have more than passing familiarity with this method of doing business, and can tell you that the atmosphere in the typical MLM sales "rally" is very much like a tent revival–right down to the "amens" and altar calls.
Joe: you’re experience may be valid, but you cannot have been at every MLM "tent revival" meeting in this country. Yet you use blithering generalities to account for all of them. You embellish. It is this "faith"–and this emotionalism–that drives these businesses. People need something to believe in, and for many, the near-miracles provided by MLM sales programs are just the ticket. There are many highly successful distributors in MLM sales programs who attribute their success as much to their personal faith and piety as they do to the product and "opportunity." For many, the line between "The Business" and "Faith" blurs, and it is not at all uncommon to hear one person’s testimony of success in MLM to segue into a personal testimony of religious faith.
Sometimes they are that way, Joe. But not all of them are. Statistically, they cannot be. They’re humans – like any human. That close connection between personal faith and promotion of a business opportunity can raise red flags. For many people, talking about personal faith in the same context as trying to sell a product or enlist a prospect into a selling program is offensive; to many, this common tactic is tantamount to saying, "I am a Christian; therefore, you should trust me." In a very real sense, this kind of association–even to printing religious symbols like a cross or an ichthus (Christian fish) on brochures and websites–is implying God’s own endorsement of the product and business.
/* Keith dons an evil grin and prepares a tongue-in-cheek rebuttal */ <HUMOR=ON Hey, Joe you like Latin.. In Rome, homes and businesses were festooned with carved errect phaluses associated with certain Roman gods in the era of the Ceasars. Everyone had at least one. You know.. keep up with the Joneses. You know they sold *herbal* *remedies* *without* *proof*, don’t you Joe? Next to religious phaluses, Joe! *Holy* Religious<< phaluses!!! So of course, every herbal sale included the unspoken, "I have an errect phalus: you should trust me!" :-} In such close proximity to an errect phalus, didn’t every herbal sale imply the approval of the phalus god? :-} I should think so! And not every phalus is due to herbal remedies, is it!!! What a demeaning _lie_ by those herbal goons!!! How dare they take our erections from us like that!!! <whimper <sniff.. To many, this even descends to blasphemy.
Oh *yes* indeed! Really really many! It’s a blasphemy against every phalus in history – isn’t it Joe? And just think of the multi-level-marketing "tent-revivals" they had! With all those errect phaluses – just for the sake of herbal remedy sales! (<shudder Why just the multi-level thing alone…) They should be shot for blaspheming all of our phaluses with herbal remedies like that! Those *bastards*! Descending into blasphemy again and again and again!!! Quick! Go back and kill our ancestors Joe! Protect our phaluses from those MLM guys Joe! *sigh* Yeah, I know. Don’t respond to a fool in his folly. Respond to a fool as his folly deserves. Well… there goes ten hail Mary’s… I couldn’t change it in time because the envelope was already sealed. <HUMOR=OFF No. People using religious symbols in association with busines does not imply "I am a Chrisitan, therefore, you should trust me." And they certainly don’t mean that they are implying God’s own endorsement. People have been stamping religious symbols on homes, businesses and products for mellinia. It has been frequent in much of known history that cultures use popular religious symbols in association with business – whatever the most popular religions of the era/area are/were. It’s not blasphemy. It’s normal. It’s more like, "We like this religion and we’re proud of it." It’s just like wearing a cross, star of david etc etc etc. while at work. /re/ "many" Once more, you embellish. Most Christians I know don’t use religious sympbols in business. Another problem is that some of the MLM programs (and distributors) have real problems with truthfulness. In the case of Quest IV (marketer of "Restores+, the product Cheryl sells), there have been significant misrepresentations about hospitals who are allegedly using the product. (Oh, my goodness…I seem to have misspelled L-I-E-S). While MLM companies tend to be somewhat…coy…about their claims, their disclaimers are invariably delivered with a wink.
Don’t you understand what you’re doing here? How would you feel if you were a decent law abiding MLM salesperson reading your article? Dear God. Who hurt you, Joe? How? What on earth made you *hate* people so? Because they offered to sell you *vitamins*?! Do you realize how foobarbazed that sounds? Then there is the issue of "harm;" if these substances "have no side effects," So if that’s true, what objection could there possibly be to these "alternatives?" First, it’s important to realize that many of the conditions for which these things are sold respond very well to "conventional" treatment. That being the case, withholding effective treatment in favor of unknown, probably ineffective "alternatives" is downright abusive.
Joe – in Germany – conventional treatment often *is* with these "alternatives". Regarding side effects, I agree. Everything has a side effect of some sort. Even natural hormones such as adrenaline have side effects. But not all MLM salespeople assert that there are "no side effects". I think they’re probably people just like all of us, Joe. You know, every one is different. And I’m just damned certain that you’ve never embellished anything, have you Joe. Why heck, you’re the perfect guy to point out their shortcomings. Is it possible that someone could have gotten "results" with these (or any) Supplements or vitamins? Sure–but it’s important to keep in mind that without Controlled testing, it’s impossible to make a statement like, "This product helped my ADHD" and be correct. What one *can* say is, "I ate this stuff and at the same time, my ADHD was helped." And strictly speaking, the symptoms that change may not be ADHD symptoms. There could be some comorbid condition.
Yes, but once more, there are entire (respected) countries using these "alternative" remedies, Joe. Secondly comorbidity. See http://medical-dictionary.com/ , "The presence of co-existing or additional diseases with reference to an initial diagnosis or with reference to the index condition that is the subject of study. Comorbidity may affect the ability of affected individuals to function and also their survival; it may be used as a prognostic indicator for length of hospital stay, cost factors, and outcome or survival." In other words, you’re saying that there could be some additional fatal diseases, in the supplements, then? Or in their morning cereal? Which? Does this affect ability to function and just plain survival? Or just cost factors and length of hospital stay? So what’s the problem? Why do people in ASAD get so offended?
It’s because you get offended, Joe. Your being offended is your issue, not hers. You’re trying to make her responsible for not only your emotions, but also the emotions of the entire group. Once you’ve done that, you and everyone will be self-justified in abusing her. And she can’t change your feelings, so you’ll just go on abusing her until your abuse reaches it’s logical conclusion. How convenient for you. She’ll always be "wrong" and you’ll always be justified. Why do people accuse MLM "salescritters" of lying, when they’re obviously sincere?
Because "people" are abusive, Joe. Accusations of lying without proof are slander, there chief. And if they choose to sue you for this, I’d support them. You labeled all MLM salespersons "salescritters". How do you think you’ve made the MLM salespeople feel, Joe? Happy? Are they supposed to thank you for this? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The answer is that if you make a statement–an assertion–with the
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*****I suppose I can see how people could think this…. But please understand, for some followers of Christ, "He" is a part, of every part of our life. I talk about my relationship with Him in all sorts of ways, relating to all sorts of things….I mean it’s not like I just decided to include Him in this part of my life. It never occurred to me to leave Him out….Except when I thought it might chase non-Christians away. But then I figured, No, I should include Christ, it could possibly be a witnessing tool.
The question, of course, is "would Jesus want to be used in this way?" Do you know why the ’simplest’ tool of truth seeking is separation and fast? Because they are denials of the self. By denying the self, you seek to divorce yourself completely from your wants and needs, leaving yourself open to what God has to say, without input from you. (Unfortunately, malnourishment, coupled with a lack of monitoring of your physical condition, can also lead to nasty mental episodes which *CAN* be self directed. It makes for a tricky situation, which is why religion must be, to a large extent, self directed.) Sure, some people want to include Jesus in every aspect of their lives. That doesn’t automatically mean that Jesus would want them to do that. If he wouldn’t, it’d be silly to do so in his name, right? Putting one’s Christianity forth can be vanity as much as it can be "letting Christianity affect all areas of one’s life". The decision should be made carefully. — Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in kindergarten. Like: Wrestling with a lion and a grizzly bear is not necessarily the best way to prove that you’re "Tuff Enuff"
Response:
Thanks for the cool-headed presentation, Joe. Perhaps more people will understand the strong reactions that have been generated by the explosive mix of MLM snake oil and religion. I don’t tend to use the word blasphemy because it sounds so positively archaic, but what we have seen is blasphemy. MLM snake oil is not manna from heaven and Jesus Christ is not the world’s greatest snake oil salesman. I think that Cheryl is telling what she believes to be true, but other salescritters have been caught in inconsistencies about made up families and medical conditions. We do not have a magical ASAD truth detector. Therefore, skepticism about any sales pitch is just good old fashioned common sense. George MLM organization chart M MMM MMMMM MMMMMMMM Mephistophiles Mannon Mannon Mannon Management Management Management Management Management Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer Marketer George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s my perspective on the whole jumbled issue of "alternatives," and the way they are often presented, sold and defended: First, I’m more than willing to stipulate that what Cheryl has said is true–that her kids had problems that seemed resistant to the treatment they had received, and that the problems were less severe at the time they began consuming these food supplements sold by Quest IV (Restores+). I’m also willing to stipulate that Cheryl is completely sincere, and that the things she says are the product of her own sincere belief that they are true. So, what’s the problem? First, there is the fact that ASAD has a long-standing, deep suspicion with regard to these products that are typically sold through multi-level marketing ("mlm"). Because the focus of an MLM sales operation is on the development of a sales force from which to derive revenue ("sponsoring"), there tends to be an evangelical zeal in promoting these products and their attendant business opportunity. By law, food supplements can’t be presented as a "cure" or "remedy" for any condition; therefore, distributors MUST rely on personal testimonials in selling them. I have more than passing familiarity with this method of doing business, and can tell you that the atmosphere in the typical MLM sales "rally" is very much like a tent revival–right down to the "amens" and altar calls. It is this "faith"–and this emotionalism–that drives these businesses. People need something to believe in, and for many, the near-miracles provided by MLM sales programs are just the ticket. There are many highly successful distributors in MLM sales programs who attribute their success as much to their personal faith and piety as they do to the product and "opportunity." For many, the line between "The Business" and "Faith" blurs, and it is not at all uncommon to hear one person’s testimony of success in MLM to segue into a personal testimony of religious faith. That close connection between personal faith and promotion of a business opportunity can raise red flags. For many people, talking about personal faith in the same context as trying to sell a product or enlist a prospect into a selling program is offensive; to many, this common tactic is tantamount to saying, "I am a Christian; therefore, you should trust me." In a very real sense, this kind of association–even to printing religious symbols like a cross or an ichthus (Christian fish) on brochures and websites–is implying God’s own endorsement of the product and business. To many, this even descends to blasphemy. Another problem is that some of the MLM programs (and distributors) have real problems with truthfulness. In the case of Quest IV (marketer of "Restores+, the product Cheryl sells), there have been significant
misrepresentations about hospitals who are allegedly using the product. (Oh, my goodness…I seem to have misspelled L-I-E-S). While MLM companies tend to be
somewhat…coy…about – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – their claims, their disclaimers are invariably delivered with a wink. Then there is the issue of "harm;" if these substances "have no side effects," So if that’s true, what objection could there possibly be to these "alternatives?" First, it’s important to realize that many of the conditions for which these things are sold respond very well to "conventional" treatment. That being the case, withholding effective treatment in favor of unknown, probably ineffective "alternatives" is downright abusive. Is it possible that someone could have gotten "results" with these (or any) supplements or vitamins? Sure–but it’s important to keep in mind that without controlled testing, it’s impossible to make a statement like, "This product helped my ADHD" and be correct. What one *can* say is, "I ate this stuff and at the same time, my ADHD was helped." And strictly speaking, the symptoms that change may not be ADHD symptoms. There could be some comorbid condition. So what’s the problem? Why do people in ASAD get so offended? Why do people accuse MLM "salescritters" of lying, when they’re obviously sincere? The answer is that if you make a statement–an assertion–with the objective of convincing others, and you have no *reasonable* belief that what you say is true, then what you are saying might was well be an intentional lie. The effect is the same. THAT is why people in ASAD react as they do. Joe Parsons Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html
Before you buy.
Response:
Here’s my perspective on the whole jumbled issue of "alternatives," and the way they are often presented, sold and defended: First, I’m more than willing to stipulate that what Cheryl has said is true–that her kids had problems that seemed resistant to the treatment they had received, and that the problems were less severe at the time they began consuming these food supplements sold by Quest IV (Restores+). I’m also willing to stipulate that Cheryl is completely sincere, and that the things she says are the product of her own sincere belief that they are true. So, what’s the problem? First, there is the fact that ASAD has a long-standing, deep suspicion with regard to these products that are typically sold through multi-level marketing ("mlm"). Because the focus of an MLM sales operation is on the development of a sales force from which to derive revenue ("sponsoring"), there tends to be an evangelical zeal in promoting these products and their attendant business opportunity. By law, food supplements can’t be presented as a "cure" or "remedy" for any condition; therefore, distributors MUST rely on personal testimonials in selling them. I have more than passing familiarity with this method of doing business, and can tell you that the atmosphere in the typical MLM sales "rally" is very much like a tent revival–right down to the "amens" and altar calls. It is this "faith"–and this emotionalism–that drives these businesses. People need something to believe in, and for many, the near-miracles provided by MLM sales programs are just the ticket. There are many highly successful distributors in MLM sales programs who attribute their success as much to their personal faith and piety as they do to the product and "opportunity." For many, the line between "The Business" and "Faith" blurs, and it is not at all uncommon to hear one person’s testimony of success in MLM to segue into a personal testimony of religious faith. That close connection between personal faith and promotion of a business opportunity can raise red flags. For many people, talking about personal faith in the same context as trying to sell a product or enlist a prospect into a selling program is offensive; to many, this common tactic is tantamount to saying, "I am a Christian; therefore, you should trust me." In a very real sense, this kind of association–even to printing religious symbols like a cross or an ichthus (Christian fish) on brochures and websites–is implying God’s own endorsement of the product and business. To many, this even descends to blasphemy. Another problem is that some of the MLM programs (and distributors) have real problems with truthfulness. In the case of Quest IV (marketer of "Restores+, the product Cheryl sells), there have been significant misrepresentations about hospitals who are allegedly using the product. (Oh, my goodness…I seem to have misspelled L-I-E-S). While MLM companies tend to be somewhat…coy…about their claims, their disclaimers are invariably delivered with a wink. Then there is the issue of "harm;" if these substances "have no side effects," So if that’s true, what objection could there possibly be to these "alternatives?" First, it’s important to realize that many of the conditions for which these things are sold respond very well to "conventional" treatment. That being the case, withholding effective treatment in favor of unknown, probably ineffective "alternatives" is downright abusive. Is it possible that someone could have gotten "results" with these (or any) supplements or vitamins? Sure–but it’s important to keep in mind that without controlled testing, it’s impossible to make a statement like, "This product helped my ADHD" and be correct. What one *can* say is, "I ate this stuff and at the same time, my ADHD was helped." And strictly speaking, the symptoms that change may not be ADHD symptoms. There could be some comorbid condition. So what’s the problem? Why do people in ASAD get so offended? Why do people accuse MLM "salescritters" of lying, when they’re obviously sincere? The answer is that if you make a statement–an assertion–with the objective of convincing others, and you have no *reasonable* belief that what you say is true, then what you are saying might was well be an intentional lie. The effect is the same. THAT is why people in ASAD react as they do. Joe Parsons Frequently Asked Questions for alt.support.attn-deficit and other resources for dealing with attention deficit disorder are at http://www.cyber-mall.com/asad/faq.html
Response:
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