Posts belonging to Category 'Rehab Programs'

State of the Union

Question:

Just in case you miss it: (Robo-clapping between each buzzword omitted for the sake of brevity) 2006 Budget Accomplishments Accountability Afghanistan African-American Al Queda Alternative Energy Axis of Evil Blame Game Brave Soldiers Bring terrorists to justice Bringing liberty Broad support Changed world Coalition Common good Compassion Compassionate Conservatism Compete Continued commitment Corporate scandals Creating jobs Cut and Run Dangerous times Death Tax Defend America Defend marriage Democracy Dictator(s) Duty of all Americans Economic Growth Economy Educational opportunity Election Election Reform Eliminate terrorist safe havens Encourage investment Encourage liberty Encourage production Enduring values Equality and justice Evildoers Expanding economy Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists Extremism Face a future Faith FEMA Fight them there Force for good Forces of terror Freedom Freedom from fear Frontiers of freedom Fuel Prices Gasoline Good people Got ‘em on the run Great opportunity Greatest purpose Hamas Hard work Health care reform Heck of a Job Higher standards Historical Times Hold us back Homeland Security Hope Hot on their trail Hurricane Katrina IEDs Illegal Immigrants Increase (our) production Innovative spirit Insurgency Intelligence Iraq Iraqi Democracy Iraqi Freedom Iraqi Vote Jobs of the future Korea Level the playing field Liberal Liberated millions Liberty Lobbyists Marriage Medicare reform Medicare/Medicaid Military Families Modernize Moral responsibility Morality National energy policy Nine Eleven No Child Left Behind Not discriminate against NSA Nuclear proliferation Our Allies Our children Our commitments Our grandchildren Ownership Palestinian Pandemic Peaceful Society Personal accounts Productivity Prosperity Protect our border Protect the environment Protect the homeland Public service Rebuild Reform Religious Renew again Resolve is needed Resolve Prosperity Rewrite History Rogue nations Sacrifice Saddam Hussein Safe Sanctity/Peace Senior Citizens Sept. 11 Shake our will Share Shut down their financing Social Security Stay the Course Struggle Students Supporting our troops Sustained progress Tax Relief Tell(ing) the truth Terrorist Cells Terrorist Surveillance Program Terrorist(s) The Democrats Threat of nuclear Tough road ahead Training camps Transform Troops Uncertainty and weakness Undermining our Efforts Unemployment Values Veterans Victory Vision that guides us War on terror Weapons of Mass Destruction Win(ning) Wisdom Withdrawal WMDs Working families

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Forgot the "OT"- sorry…..

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To bring this on topic by borrowing from the band name generator thread: Holy Lyin’ Bush It’s Just a Goddamned Piece of Funk Nucular Vulture WMD Preacher and the Relief Shameful Evil-Doers and the Ghetto Towel Embodied Good Job Brownie and the Rusty Bazooka Abramoff Payday and the Fury Gas Prices Zero and the Consequence I’m an Idiot and the Begging Lassie

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Here’s a better angle should you feel so inclined: rtsp://video.c-span.org/15days/e013006_policy.rm

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I’ve grown to find his "Workin’ HARD" line to rank RIGHT up there with a kid’s "you know?" or the ubiquitous "know what I mean?". Ashcroft Powell Tenet Libby The air is merely leaking out of the neocon balloon at a faster rate now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just in case you miss it: (Robo-clapping between each buzzword omitted for the sake of brevity) 2006 Budget Accomplishments Accountability Afghanistan African-American Al Queda Alternative Energy Axis of Evil Blame Game Brave Soldiers Bring terrorists to justice Bringing liberty Broad support Changed world Coalition Common good Compassion Compassionate Conservatism Compete Continued commitment Corporate scandals Creating jobs Cut and Run Dangerous times Death Tax Defend America Defend marriage Democracy Dictator(s) Duty of all Americans Economic Growth Economy Educational opportunity Election Election Reform Eliminate terrorist safe havens Encourage investment Encourage liberty Encourage production Enduring values Equality and justice Evildoers Expanding economy Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists Extremism Face a future Faith FEMA Fight them there Force for good Forces of terror Freedom Freedom from fear Frontiers of freedom Fuel Prices Gasoline Good people Got ‘em on the run Great opportunity Greatest purpose Hamas Hard work Health care reform Heck of a Job Higher standards Historical Times Hold us back Homeland Security Hope Hot on their trail Hurricane Katrina IEDs Illegal Immigrants Increase (our) production Innovative spirit Insurgency Intelligence Iraq Iraqi Democracy Iraqi Freedom Iraqi Vote Jobs of the future Korea Level the playing field Liberal Liberated millions Liberty Lobbyists Marriage Medicare reform Medicare/Medicaid Military Families Modernize Moral responsibility Morality National energy policy Nine Eleven No Child Left Behind Not discriminate against NSA Nuclear proliferation Our Allies Our children Our commitments Our grandchildren Ownership Palestinian Pandemic Peaceful Society Personal accounts Productivity Prosperity Protect our border Protect the environment Protect the homeland Public service Rebuild Reform Religious Renew again Resolve is needed Resolve Prosperity Rewrite History Rogue nations Sacrifice Saddam Hussein Safe Sanctity/Peace Senior Citizens Sept. 11 Shake our will Share Shut down their financing Social Security Stay the Course Struggle Students Supporting our troops Sustained progress Tax Relief Tell(ing) the truth Terrorist Cells Terrorist Surveillance Program Terrorist(s) The Democrats Threat of nuclear Tough road ahead Training camps Transform Troops Uncertainty and weakness Undermining our Efforts Unemployment Values Veterans Victory Vision that guides us War on terror Weapons of Mass Destruction Win(ning) Wisdom Withdrawal WMDs Working families

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I’ve often thought- *IF* there was _one_ event where the U.S. Government was gathered in one physical place and the entire event was covered live by the media… Security can only be *so* good when it comes to technology and terrorism. Fact? Post 9/11/01, it’s an arrogant, stupid anachronism to do it the way it’s always been done, right there on the Senate Floor, before live TV -really _stupid_. …but isn’t that *the* very nature of "Conservatism"? Keeping things ‘unchanged’? If I’ve thought it, there’s unknown tens of thousands with the means and motive who have as well. Dumb assed blind traditionalists. The nature of nature is itself, change -and they fight it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve grown to find his "Workin’ HARD" line to rank RIGHT up there with a kid’s "you know?" or the ubiquitous "know what I mean?". Ashcroft Powell Tenet Libby The air is merely leaking out of the neocon balloon at a faster rate now.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve often thought- *IF* there was _one_ event where the U.S. Government was gathered in one physical place and the entire event was covered live by the media… Security can only be *so* good when it comes to technology and terrorism. Fact? Post 9/11/01, it’s an arrogant, stupid anachronism to do it the way it’s always been done, right there on the Senate Floor, before live TV -really _stupid_. …but isn’t that *the* very nature of "Conservatism"? Keeping things ‘unchanged’? If I’ve thought it, there’s unknown tens of thousands with the means and motive who have as well. Dumb assed blind traditionalists. The nature of nature is itself, change -and they fight it.

Typical lib hypocrisy. First, Mike Moore and his left wing buddies say there is no terrorist threat and Bushco has blown it out of proportion to scare the public. Now, we have this left wing liberal nutcase screaming how un-secure we are…. no wonder they lose election after election. …and in Mulay’s case, he loses erection after erection.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve often thought- *IF* there was _one_ event where the U.S. Government was gathered in one physical place and the entire event was covered live by the media… Security can only be *so* good when it comes to technology and terrorism. Fact? Post 9/11/01, it’s an arrogant, stupid anachronism to do it the way it’s always been done, right there on the Senate Floor, before live TV -really _stupid_. …but isn’t that *the* very nature of "Conservatism"? Keeping things ‘unchanged’? If I’ve thought it, there’s unknown tens of thousands with the means and motive who have as well. Dumb assed blind traditionalists. The nature of nature is itself, change -and they fight it. Typical lib hypocrisy.

You ass belch- Calling me a lib for knowing Bush is a tool is like calling me a Nazi for knowing Clinton was too. The Office of the Pres. of the U.S. hit bottom w/ Nixon and has yet to come back, regardless of political party. First, Mike Moore and his left wing buddies say there is no terrorist threat and Bushco has blown it out of proportion to scare the public.

Why you infected, smelly dick plug. I am confident that in all probability, NYC ($$$) and D.C. are at risk. The rest is GOP political posturing to keep the nation unified against the boogie man….and not them Now, we have this left wing liberal nutcase screaming how un-secure we are…. no wonder they lose election after election.

Hmmm- I voted for Reagan and Bush Sr. When you pull your 2" embarassment out of whatever domestic pet you’re raping, type something factual. he loses erection after erection.

In your case, erection is impossible unless you’ve smeared turd on your upper lip. .

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First, Mike Moore and his left wing buddies say there is no terrorist threat and Bushco has blown it out of proportion to scare the public. Why you infected, smelly dick plug. I am confident that in all probability, NYC ($$$) and D.C. are at risk. The rest is GOP political posturing to keep the nation unified against the boogie man….and not them

That’s why if you knew anything, the President has a cabinet member tucked away somewhere in a protected environment with all the codes in case something like that happens. Same goes for some congressmen as well. Mulay fast fact #62: Mulay’s father was hanged for stealing a pig.

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Cliff Hanger: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RN "screwed up" passed Cliff, not Coat Hanger

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just in case you miss it: (Robo-clapping between each buzzword omitted for the sake of brevity) 2006 Budget Accomplishments Accountability Afghanistan African-American Al Queda Alternative Energy Axis of Evil Blame Game Brave Soldiers Bring terrorists to justice Bringing liberty Broad support Changed world Coalition Common good Compassion Compassionate Conservatism Compete Continued commitment Corporate scandals Creating jobs Cut and Run Dangerous times Death Tax Defend America Defend marriage Democracy Dictator(s) Duty of all Americans Economic Growth Economy Educational opportunity Election Election Reform Eliminate terrorist safe havens Encourage investment Encourage liberty Encourage production Enduring values Equality and justice Evildoers Expanding economy Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists Extremism Face a future Faith FEMA Fight them there Force for good Forces of terror Freedom Freedom from fear Frontiers of freedom Fuel Prices Gasoline Good people Got ‘em on the run Great opportunity Greatest purpose Hamas Hard work Health care reform Heck of a Job Higher standards Historical Times Hold us back Homeland Security Hope Hot on their trail Hurricane Katrina IEDs Illegal Immigrants Increase (our) production Innovative spirit Insurgency Intelligence Iraq Iraqi Democracy Iraqi Freedom Iraqi Vote Jobs of the future Korea Level the playing field Liberal Liberated millions Liberty Lobbyists Marriage Medicare reform Medicare/Medicaid Military Families Modernize Moral responsibility Morality National energy policy Nine Eleven No Child Left Behind Not discriminate against NSA Nuclear proliferation Our Allies Our children Our commitments Our grandchildren Ownership Palestinian Pandemic Peaceful Society Personal accounts Productivity Prosperity Protect our border Protect the environment Protect the homeland Public service Rebuild Reform Religious Renew again Resolve is needed Resolve Prosperity Rewrite History Rogue nations Sacrifice Saddam Hussein Safe Sanctity/Peace Senior Citizens Sept. 11 Shake our will Share Shut down their financing Social Security Stay the Course Struggle Students Supporting our troops Sustained progress Tax Relief Tell(ing) the truth Terrorist Cells Terrorist Surveillance Program Terrorist(s) The Democrats Threat of nuclear Tough road ahead Training camps Transform Troops Uncertainty and weakness Undermining our Efforts Unemployment Values Veterans Victory Vision that guides us War on terror Weapons of Mass Destruction Win(ning) Wisdom Withdrawal WMDs Working families

Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

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I assumed the marble-mouthed orator was a given. bk (thousands of hours on thousands of new production tubes. The good ones of course…)

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Bush Speech To Set Course For Second Term By Jeff Gannon Talon News February 2, 2005 WASHINGTON (Talon News) — President Bush will deliver his fifth State of the Union address on Wednesday, the first of his second term. The president will put forward an ambitious agenda which includes new initiatives and some which he was unable to achieve in his first term. The speech will be evenly divided between foreign and domestic policy, and dominated by the war on terror and Social Security reform. The address to a joint session of Congress will last about 45 minutes not counting pauses for applause. A larger and decidedly more conservative Republican majority in both houses is planning a boisterous show of support for the president. Where the president’s inaugural address only two weeks ago used broad strokes to describe the direction he would lead the country in the next four years, Wednesday’s speech will provide more of the details. A senior White House official said that following the address there would be "no doubt" where the president stands on Social Security. Bush will use the nationally televised event to speak not only to Congress, but directly to the American people as well. Last week he vowed to take the Social Security debate to the citizenry and will depart Washington on Thursday morning to begin a five-state tour to talk about his plan for reform. While details of his proposal will be offered to advance the debate, specific legislation will not be a part of the speech. The president will provide an explanation of why he has decided to take on what many have said is a politically perilous issue. He will also discuss ways to permanently fix the retirement program and how personal retirement accounts will help accomplish that goal. Other domestic policy issues will also be a part of the speech. Bush will speak about the growing economy and his plans to maintain and build on the momentum spurred by his tax cuts. He will again call on Congress to make those tax cuts permanent and repeal the death tax. The president will reiterate his plan for broad tax reform that he hopes will make the system fairer and simpler. A key point will be a commitment to fiscal discipline that will shrink the deficits caused by a loss of revenue from the recession and the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The budget the president will submit to Congress will propose little or no increases in non-defense, non-discretionary spending. However, no spending cuts are planned. Other economic topics will include legal reform, passing a comprehensive energy policy, education, and job training initiatives. Social issues will be a part of the speech as well. Conservatives are expecting pronouncements that echo promises President Bush made on the campaign trail with regard to family values, including abortion and protecting traditional marriage. The president will use the opportunity of having the full Senate before him to urge its members to end the practice of filibustering judicial nominees. He will ask that all of his nominees be treated fairly, receiving an up or down vote on the Senate floor. Democrats have used a Senate rule to keep at least a dozen nominees from being considered, even though those judges had the votes for confirmation. His comments will set the tone for the battle over the next Supreme Court nominee, likely to be waged early in his second term. Bush will also spend a good portion of the foreign policy speech paying tribute to the men and women who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to fight terror, secure freedom, and spread democracy. He will speak directly to those individuals that are fighting for freedom around the world, both soldiers and citizens. The Middle East will dominate the balance of his foreign policy remarks. He will cite historic elections in Palestine, Afghanistan, and Iraq as precursors to a transformation of the birthplace of civilization from a breeding ground for hatred to a fertile garden of hope.

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Bush Speech To Set Course For Second Term By Jeff Gannon Talon News

jeff gannon is well known for asking loaded pro-republican questions at white house press briefings. talon news is an arm of the republican party. they have as much credibility as armstrong williams, maggie gallagher and michael mcmanus – wholly owned and paid for by the bush white house. see jeff gannon "reporting" at http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200501260015

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Any info from Talon news and jeff Gannon is simply an advertisement for Bush. Other journalists are wondering how this turkey got a White House press pass.

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A serious speech from a serious President. J

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I was struck by the overall religiosity of the speech–in tone and in specifics–which was really offensive. This prez, pandering to part of his "base"–the religious right–seems willing to leave no secularist tradition unstoned. As in the Middle East, he seems willing to reap the whirlwind for short-term political or financial gain.

America’s version of the Ayatollah.

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Islamists point to Allah in their political speeches, Bush invokes the Christian God. Religiosity is frightening whatever it points to. The Almighty told me she is sick of this crap and a plague on both their houses. And plague it will be. and soon.

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: :

: : : : : : : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : : Thumper : : : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. : : And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the : war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more : brilliant as the days go by. : : : Not true. Most don’t want war at all. There is no need to have a war : against an "enemy" who is surrounded and starving. : thumper How about you give me the name of one person at the DNC, that has said they do NOT want to go to war at all. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

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AA and other relious programs have been praised to the heavens, and of course it/they DO work for some people. Good. But AA has a very high rate of recidivism–much higher than cognitive therapy-based programs such as Rational Recovery and similar therapies, I believe–and religious folks often try to get such better or more effective therapies banned from prisons, from public funds, etc. They’d rather save souls than cure addictions, too often. Public funds for religious programs which do not work too well are better than public funds for non-religious programs whcih work BETTER, and this bothers me as both a practical person and an non-religious humanist who finds govt support for religion and relgiosity offensive. And in this and many other cases, flat-out the wrong option. John

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When I was a kid, our textbks taught that by the turn of the next century, world govt would have eliminated nation-states. Shows how optimistic we once were–and wrong.

Where did you go to school?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What nearly all of these programs have in common and what really helps people is the positive group support and repetition of same. They all have a policy of continued attendance at meetings where people that have the same type of problem give comfort, advice and sympathy. Many feel it’s easier to give themselves over to a higher power but I’m not so sure that the success rate is higher than that of the determined people that choose to take responsibility for changing their lives without this tactic. As you said, the recidivism is high. Thumper Certainly those in rehab programs get more solid advice on how to avoid relapse from their fellow sufferers than from Jesus. I know many people believe Jesus talks to them, but there is enough hallucinating and such among drug users not to encourage that sort of thing:) I wonder if Jesus is talking to George Bush about the Gulf War? Never thought I’d see the day where the President got so religiously sickening in the State of the Union address. "Yes, folks, I am going to bomb Iraq — praise the Lord and pass the ammunitiion." Anti-religous fanaticism from the best in the business. Bush kicked your asses and you lefties can’t take it.

Sounds like they’ve all became atheists.

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These things are always varying degrees of tedious and platitudinous. However, I was struck by the overall religiosity of the speech–in tone and in specifics–which was really offensive. This prez, pandering to part of his "base"–the religious right–seems willing to leave no secularist tradition unstoned. As in the Middle East, he seems willing to reap the whirlwind for short-term political or financial gain. The US controls the UN so completely that it is hopeless to dream that body could execute a real slap-down, but perhaps some small efforts will have some effect. When I was a kid, our textbks taught that by the turn of the next century, world govt would have eliminated nation-states. Shows how optimistic we once were–and wrong. John (closely related to some founders of the League of NAtions, the World Court, the UN, and the Nuremburg Trials—Republicans all, BTW!)

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What nearly all of these programs have in common and what really helps people is the positive group support and repetition of same. They all have a policy of continued attendance at meetings where people that have the same type of problem give comfort, advice and sympathy. Many feel it’s easier to give themselves over to a higher power but I’m not so sure that the success rate is higher than that of the determined people that choose to take responsibility for changing their lives without this tactic. As you said, the recidivism is high. Thumper

Certainly those in rehab programs get more solid advice on how to avoid relapse from their fellow sufferers than from Jesus. I know many people believe Jesus talks to them, but there is enough hallucinating and such among drug users not to encourage that sort of thing:) I wonder if Jesus is talking to George Bush about the Gulf War? Never thought I’d see the day where the President got so religiously sickening in the State of the Union address. "Yes, folks, I am going to bomb Iraq — praise the Lord and pass the ammunitiion."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome? Basically, he was anti-Capitalist and kick the money changers out of the temple. He could not be classed as pro-rich. If he appeared again with his program for the poor he would be crucified again. Earl Moreover, as the Son of God, he was incapable of sin. I am not sure that drug addiction is a sin, because it is a problem of the body becoming addicted to certain substances. AA relies on belief in a "higher power", although they do not define that higher power in religious terms. All drug rehab programs use motivational techniques of some sort. They do try to change the users’ belief systems that they MUST use drugs. All drug rehab programs have some successes and many failures. The recividist rate is high. Just as it is for alcoholics who join AA. The programs all tend to emphasize the successes, not the failures. AA has some groups that do not use the higher power theme. The members object to what they consider a religious theme and do the program as is, except for the higher power business. Others just interpet the "higher power" to mean whatever they want it to mean. Jesus was not a right wing Republican, that we know for sure. He hung out with the lower classes and made short shrift of the moralizers of his day. I don’t think he would feel much at home in the Bush White House. Ashcroft in particular would surely appall him.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : Thumper : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more brilliant as the days go by.

Not true. Most don’t want war at all. There is no need to have a war against an "enemy" who is surrounded and starving. thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I swear my 4 year old nephew could run a better political operation than the bunch they have up there now. Sooner or later, they are going to have to face the reality that this President is going to deal with Saddam. Regardless of whether he is correct in doing so, he is going to deal with him. So the Democrats should be climbing on board and pushing for sooner rather than later. That is, if they want to make a political issue out of war, which I think they do and which I think is a huge mistake. But the new guys have got to learn somehow. I guess a foot in the face is as good a way as any. If they had any sense at all, they would get "war" out of their thoughts. And when asked, say "in war, we will always support our Commander in Chief, but as the defense of America is his charge, we must focus on the domestic side of the equation and that is what we are going to do". It won’t win them back the Presidency, but it would be a near lead pipe cinch to win them back the Congress.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : Thumper : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more brilliant as the days go by. I swear my 4 year old nephew could run a better political operation than the bunch they have up there now. Sooner or later, they are going to have to face the reality that this President is going to deal with Saddam. Regardless of whether he is correct in doing so, he is going to deal with him. So the Democrats should be climbing on board and pushing for sooner rather than later. That is, if they want to make a political issue out of war, which I think they do and which I think is a huge mistake. But the new guys have got to learn somehow. I guess a foot in the face is as good a way as any. If they had any sense at all, they would get "war" out of their thoughts. And when asked, say "in war, we will always support our Commander in Chief, but as the defense of America is his charge, we must focus on the domestic side of the equation and that is what we are going to do". It won’t win them back the Presidency, but it would be a near lead pipe cinch to win them back the Congress. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

Hey, don’t knock it! At the rate they’re going, they’ll soon be a forgotten party.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Long on rhetoric, short on substance. First, he IS a politician. grin Second, what do you want? To read the intelligence reports yourself??? Ain’t gonna happen. Sounded like he got his hydrogen car briefings directly from Mel. Like Mel, he didn’t address the cost of obtaining the hyrodogen. Clueless. He proposes to provide funds for research, not production. He had a chance to present some solid evidence that we should be going to war with Iraq and blew it. He gave no substantiation for his claims. That will be provided on 5 Feb.

Want to bet? Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lots of neat new programs. Provide aids medication to Africa so aids victims can live longer and infect more people at the cost of many billions to us. So, the obvious course is to kill ‘em off quickly???? Many increases in spending and tax cuts. The unspoken message is loud and clear, do your financial planning assuming significant inflation. My plan was always to get a million dollars in debt and pray for inflation. grin cheers bob

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: : Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through : churches,soon—even defence? : : John : : The drug rehab programs Bush is lauding rely on faith in Jesus : Christ to get off drugs. I really don’t think Jesus wants to take : this on. I hope he tells Bush so:) : You are so far off base on that one, I’m almost inclined to believe you don’t really do the work you claim. I have been working with Cenacor up in Houston. They teach faith in Jesus but they teach it, and I understand many others do as well, in the context that Jesus was a virtuous person and was of such strong will that he was able to overcome all temptation and deal with life on it’s own terms. Having faith in the possibility that you can do the same and reap the same benefits is what it is all about. Maybe teaching faith in Ozzy Osbourne in the context that once you cook your brain into well done, you won’t have to worry anymore. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

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What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome? Basically, he was anti-Capitalist and kick the money changers out of the temple. He could not be classed as pro-rich. If he appeared again with his program for the poor he would be crucified again. Earl

Moreover, as the Son of God, he was incapable of sin. I am not sure that drug addiction is a sin, because it is a problem of the body becoming addicted to certain substances. AA relies on belief in a "higher power", although they do not define that higher power in religious terms. All drug rehab programs use motivational techniques of some sort. They do try to change the users’ belief systems that they MUST use drugs. All drug rehab programs have some successes and many failures. The recividist rate is high. Just as it is for alcoholics who join AA. The programs all tend to emphasize the successes, not the failures. AA has some groups that do not use the higher power theme. The members object to what they consider a religious theme and do the program as is, except for the higher power business. Others just interpet the "higher power" to mean whatever they want it to mean. Jesus was not a right wing Republican, that we know for sure. He hung out with the lower classes and made short shrift of the moralizers of his day. I don’t think he would feel much at home in the Bush White House. Ashcroft in particular would surely appall him.

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What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome?

Basically, he was anti-Capitalist and kick the money changers out of the temple. He could not be classed as pro-rich. If he appeared again with his program for the poor he would be crucified again. Earl

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The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played.

Sounds as if you are experiencing some sour grapes re: the DNC. Did someone force you into early retirement against your wishes? You, being out of it, have to join the benchwarmers, no? I don’t believe pure political expediency holds up for long, and most Dems believe a rush to war in Iraq is a mistake. You are suggesting, in the interests of getting elected, they should go against what they believe? Another comment on the benchwarmer theme. In a democracy the benchwarmers do have something to say about how the game should be played. They make that clear in every election. Perhaps you would prefer a different form of government?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through : churches,soon—even defence? : : John : : The drug rehab programs Bush is lauding rely on faith in Jesus : Christ to get off drugs. I really don’t think Jesus wants to take : this on. I hope he tells Bush so:) : You are so far off base on that one, I’m almost inclined to believe you don’t really do the work you claim. I have been working with Cenacor up in Houston. They teach faith in Jesus but they teach it, and I understand many others do as well, in the context that Jesus was a virtuous person and was of such strong will that he was able to overcome all temptation and deal with life on it’s own terms. Having faith in the possibility that you can do the same and reap the same benefits is what it is all about.

What temptations, such as drug addiction, did Jesus overcome? So far as I know he had a forty day and forty night battle with Satan in the desert. But then, he was the Son of God, so of course he won. You don’t think God’s son would have a weak will, do you? As a role model for junkies, perhaps someone a bit more down to earth would be more helpful. And when public funds are involved, more in line with the notion that Congress should not make laws supporting one religion over another? I have no problem with individuals choosing one rehab program another. I do have a problem with the government handing out money to promote religious doctrine. Even in a "good cause".

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That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush.

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Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through churches,soon—even defence? John

The drug rehab programs Bush is lauding rely on faith in Jesus Christ to get off drugs. I really don’t think Jesus wants to take this on. I hope he tells Bush so:)

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: : : : : His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he : doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with : an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early : because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. : Thumper : : That is an interesting point — people are reluctant to throw out a : President in time of war. My family, rock ribbed Republicans all, : voted for FDR because "we can’t change horses in the middle : of the stream". So perhaps having a war going at the time of : the next election is indeed a strategy. And if the economy is still : bad, he can blame it on the war. Nifty! Clever Bush. And the damn idiots at the DNC now are doing all they can to make sure the war gets held off until the next cycle. Those guys get more and more brilliant as the days go by. I swear my 4 year old nephew could run a better political operation than the bunch they have up there now. Sooner or later, they are going to have to face the reality that this President is going to deal with Saddam. Regardless of whether he is correct in doing so, he is going to deal with him. So the Democrats should be climbing on board and pushing for sooner rather than later. That is, if they want to make a political issue out of war, which I think they do and which I think is a huge mistake. But the new guys have got to learn somehow. I guess a foot in the face is as good a way as any. If they had any sense at all, they would get "war" out of their thoughts. And when asked, say "in war, we will always support our Commander in Chief, but as the defense of America is his charge, we must focus on the domestic side of the equation and that is what we are going to do". It won’t win them back the Presidency, but it would be a near lead pipe cinch to win them back the Congress. — The benchwarmers always know best how the game should be played. Brooks Gregory www.campaignline.com http://capwiz.com/congressorg/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Long on rhetoric, short on substance. Sounded like he got his hydrogen car briefings directly from Mel. Like Mel, he didn’t address the cost of obtaining the hyrodogen. Clueless. He had a chance to present some solid evidence that we should be going to war with Iraq and blew it. He gave no substantiation for his claims. Lots of neat new programs. Provide aids medication to Africa so aids victims can live longer and infect more people at the cost of many billions to us. Many increases in spending and tax cuts. The unspoken message is loud and clear, do your financial planning assuming significant inflation. Dick

His "neat new programs" is just smoke and mirrors because he knows he doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell of getting re-elected with an economy like this. He also doesn’t want to go to war too early because he knows what happened to his pappy in a few short months. Thumper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ——= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Note all of the idiotic/clever religiosity–EVERYthing will be done through churches,soon—even defence? John

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Long on rhetoric, short on substance.

First, he IS a politician. grin Second, what do you want? To read the intelligence reports yourself??? Ain’t gonna happen. Sounded like he got his hydrogen car briefings directly from Mel. Like Mel, he didn’t address the cost of obtaining the hyrodogen. Clueless.

He proposes to provide funds for research, not production. He had a chance to present some solid evidence that we should be going to war with Iraq and blew it. He gave no substantiation for his claims.

That will be provided on 5 Feb. Lots of neat new programs. Provide aids medication to Africa so aids victims can live longer and infect more people at the cost of many billions to us.

So, the obvious course is to kill ‘em off quickly???? Many increases in spending and tax cuts. The unspoken message is loud and clear, do your financial planning assuming significant inflation.

My plan was always to get a million dollars in debt and pray for inflation. grin cheers bob

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Mel will prove in his gasoline series that the cost of transporting 37 million barrels of oil in huge oil burning tankers across the oceans of the world to their points of delivery–IS TOO EXCESSIVE–compared to Penn State’s getting Hydrogen from Fermentation of city waste treatment feed stock– Let alone the oil burned to boil the crude in the distillation process to produce gasoline !Hang in there with me. This was posted by a THINKING LIBERAL of the ‘Silent Revolution,Truth is our only PATRIOTS business. melvin WW 2 ETO Reg Army DAV VFW Amer Leg 55 YEARS UNION age 83 yrs.,

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I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. I woudn’t know. My TV set started acting up about 9:15 EST last night. It may have been because I kicked the screen in about that time

:-| :-| :-| (The above is supposed to be somebody laughing three times) I avoided watching the speech, so I wasn’t subject to the temptation.

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(The above is supposed to be somebody laughing three times)

I thought it had to be Zorro. — http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/31/74439/9483 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30592669.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/ AR2006013001162_pf.html In favor of reality absed government.

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(The above is supposed to be somebody laughing three times) I thought it had to be Zorro.

Now that you mention it, it does conjure up Zorro in my mind, too. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just your suggestion, or maybe it’s some subliminal thing that I’m not detecting.

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Yeh right, you did that so your wife would let you buy the new big screen plasma tv On a serious note, I have been thinking about getting a larger screen TV. Not a plasma but a flat screen about 32 inches.

The latest Consumers Report has a review of TV sets, Sony CRT is still the sharpest but non-CRT are gaining. They say wait for the sales to buy. — Glenn

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeh right, you did that so your wife would let you buy the new big screen plasma tv On a serious note, I have been thinking about getting a larger screen TV. Not a plasma but a flat screen about 32 inches. On thing has been holding me back, and that is the extreme closeups they use these days on TV movies. Seeing nothing of a person’s face except the eyeballs, nose hairs and mouth is something I find disgusting enough on a 21 inch. I hate to think of seeing it any larger. Most of my evening TV viewing is political interview type programs and who really wants to see a larger version of Larry King and Sean Hannity ? I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. I woudn’t know. My TV set started acting up about 9:15 EST last night. It may have been because I kicked the screen in about that time

I am looking at getting a big screen also. I have a 53" Sony analog. A 50" plasm is too small and the 60" cost way way TOO much. Think I’ll go for a Samsung 56-60" DLP.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it? If you start from the premise that this is an unreality-based administration, in which so often words have no meaning, including those in the law, it was an interesting exercise in rhetoric. Whereas reality based rule making let 24 miners survive a mine fire that wasn’t put out for days in Canada our unreality based rule making set up our miners to die. "Who" is on first, "Idont Know" is on second and you are way in left field. Sounds like one of those liberal freaks like "Shithan" or what ever her name is. Oh yes! they had a nasty accident in Florida maybe you can blame it on Bush.

There you go. Jump right to name calling. The administration chose to ignore the law and folks died. — http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/31/74439/9483 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30592669.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/ AR2006013001162_pf.html In favor of reality absed government.

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I have never been able to figure out why Larry King draws such an audience. That makes two of us. I can’t figure out how a lot of people on TV these days got there.

Simple….they pitch EVERYTHING towards the acne generation which should explain why I don’t watch most of their stuff either. As far as Larry King is concerned, I used to watch him but I never liked him. I think his personality sucks and I stopped punishing myself many moons ago by the simple expedient of changing the station when he came on. George Z.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it? If you start from the premise that this is an unreality-based administration, in which so often words have no meaning, including those in the law, it was an interesting exercise in rhetoric. Whereas reality based rule making let 24 miners survive a mine fire that wasn’t put out for days in Canada our unreality based rule making set up our miners to die.

"Who" is on first, "Idont Know" is on second and you are way in left field. Sounds like one of those liberal freaks like "Shithan" or what ever her name is. Oh yes! they had a nasty accident in Florida maybe you can blame it on Bush. — Bill P. just Dog & ME At this time in life all that remains is left overs, some can be cherished as good others bad, but the only definite is that they are all that remains, main course is over.

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I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. — BILL P. Just Dog & ME

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Why ? , He didn’t mangle any of the lies, bullshit, or nazi propaganda Goebbels and Murdoch would be proud of their little Hitler Youth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. — BILL P. Just Dog & ME

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I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career.

Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it?

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Yeh right, you did that so your wife would let you buy the new big screen plasma tv

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. I woudn’t know. My TV set started acting up about 9:15 EST last night. It may have been because I kicked the screen in about that time

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I consider President Bush’s address in the State of the Union address was his best presentation of his career. Doesn’t take very much to impress you reactionaries, does it?

If you start from the premise that this is an unreality-based administration, in which so often words have no meaning, including those in the law, it was an interesting exercise in rhetoric. Whereas reality based rule making let 24 miners survive a mine fire that wasn’t put out for days in Canada our unreality based rule making set up our miners to die. — http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2006/1/31/74439/9483 http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L30592669.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/30/ AR2006013001162_pf.html In favor of reality absed government.

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G’day, Congratulations President Bush on a well delivered, passionate and intelligent speech. Hope he gets the support he needs from congress. I hope the countries he mentioned regarding terrorism are suitably embarrassed (and warned). Warm Regards, Ron Lawrence, Canberra, ACT, Australia

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Ron Lawrence said: "Congratulations President Bush on a well delivered, passionate and intelligent speech. Hope he gets the support he needs from congress. I hope the countries he mentioned regarding terrorism are suitably embarrassed (and warned)." Ditto—— Lon

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I agree – it was an excellent speech.

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Congratulations President Bush on a well delivered, passionate and intelligent speech. Hope he gets the support he needs from congress. I hope the countries he mentioned regarding terrorism are suitably embarrassed (and warned).

I hear nothing but good about Bush’s speech. I listened to it twice last evening. There was so much applause, he had difficulty getting through it. He is enjoying the highest positive rating from Americans for the last 50 years. He is not a natural dynamic speaker like Clinton was, but he makes up for that in content. Bush is staying very focused on the terrorism issue, which was a concern of mine. The response from the three countries he mentioned will be interesting. I got the impression that something is already going on in those countries. It isn’t just a warning. -Connie

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G’day, Connie writes:

"I got the impression that something is already going on in those countries. It isn’t just a warning." I am certain the US has intelligence on these countries that warrants the warning – perhaps harbouring important Al Qaeda terrorists who escaped from Afghanistan is part of it. I do not believe the US is going into Iraq soon, if ever. I cannot believe there will be a pre-emptive strike – it takes months to plan and build up the required forces – not easily hidden. I could be proved wrong of course – there’s room for more crosses on the wall <G. I think the pressure to allow UN inspectors back into Iraq is mounting and Bush is just adding of that pressure. I am not as certain about the other countries he mentioned but the attitude of the coalition, including Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries, will be crucial to this decision. Warm Regards, Ron Lawrence, Canberra, ACT, Australia

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Category Categories: Rehab Programs | No Comments »

Need Support and just to vent

Question:

Kathy: I don’t have any way to know what the exact little "dealio" between you and your progeny is. I actually sort of like that reality, I don’t really WANT to know every detail of everyone’s life here, it would be far too much to keep track of. I did read everything you wrote about the situation, and thought about it some, and thought about my own growing up, parents, school, dating issues etc. I do know that you are capable of impulsive statements that reflect anger, having read one; something about having misjudged the group and silly you. I suppose everyone gets frustrated now and then, except me, cuz I’m "perfekt" (Elliott said so, so it must be true). When I was 18, I was hanging out with people who I just really, really, REALLY liked being with, and there was occasional marijuana use and liquor was not uncommon at the "porch party" (the one guy’s mother had a huge house on top of a hill, with a porch that wrapped around it, and you could see all of the city from there – at the time it seemed sublime) on Friday nights. My mother’s only really strong objection (once stated, and acted on right then and forever more) was that she didn’t know "where I was all night". So I made it my business to tell her, and often still do (I’m 42 now; lol) I did use some of these things on into my early twenties, not heavy-duty type use, but did use some when it was practical, and I did make sure that I didn’t drive afterwards. Looking back, it was because my parents were literally UNFLINCHING in their desire to make me "reasonable" and to apply common sense to every damn thing (and I do mean every damn thing)… that was why I chose to do the same thing with substances. I got an LSD offer, but said no, because I had heard it could "mess up your brain" – I thought I was being reasonable and applying common sense. When marijuana was messing with my school stuff, I realized I would not get what I wanted (to be a nurse) if I didn’t get school accomplished, so I got rid of that. The people who didn’t seem to want anything but a "college degree and a ‘good job’ – whatever that is – they didn’t stop, and now they are kinda messed up, and not just with respect to drugs or jobs either. Hopefully you have nurtured a child who does actually *want* something. The more I thought about this, and thought about it, I realized two things. a) There are some pretty scary drugs out there now and ecstasy is definitely one of them. Whoever posted that it’s not – child please – I personally know two people who messed with it for *not even that long* and it permanently affected their sleep and ability to concentrate, one has not been employed now in over two years and is in the list of "top ten intellect levels" that I’m friends with – and I don’t hang out with the dumbass crowd. Summary on that – it fucked him up. And I know it did, because I’ve known this guy as a CLOSE friend for over 20 years. Tragic doesn’t even cover it. b) There is not a lot you can actually do at this point that will have NEARLY as much impact as what you have hopefully already done for years prior. If you created a thinking person who knows that they get out of life what they put into it, this will be a bump in the road. I hope you did that. I’m not always popular here, because I am a very straight-shooter type, but I see absolutely no point in doing anything else, to do so would be patronizing, dishonest, and quite frankly just beneath me. I hope you and your family drive over the road bump with little sequalae. Gary ps: I dont have any kids, don’t ever want any, and don’t think that makes one bit of difference to the validity or honesty of anything I said here. I also am a huge fan of the ‘garage-sale model’ – take what’s good and leave the rest; you can apply that to all posts too. G

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users." Ma, I have to say that I do respect you very highly and find you to be a person who is "decent" (a high compliment, in a world where that is less than common anymore) – however, in this case, I do not agree with that statement. Yes, drug abuse history does not a "qualified counselor" make, by definition, however it can sometimes offer up information otherwise unavailable. I think if the former abuser and their relationship patterns with parents share some commonality (or multiple commonalities) with the "at risk" parents (Kathy and her husband, in this case) it may shed some light on some knowledge or insights otherwise inaccessible to them. That is not to say that it WILL shed light, but it has the possibility to – so I do respectfully disagree. I only disagree because you used the word "absolutely" no use, and absolute is a little strong for me, when there is some possibility. Kindly, Gary shuffled Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. Since I don’t give out ‘personal’ advise at all – I’m quite consistent in saying nothing. Well, nothing to the original poster, anyhow. I’m reminded of when I was working with a half-way house in Madison, WI. I’d been through the drug days (years of it – without a single day of ‘not’ being high in one way or another). I was only in my 20s, and live-in counselor of the half-way house was a close friend, but I’d offered my help because of my ability to relate to younger kids who didn’t think anyone understood what they were going though. No, I did NOT understand what they were going though. I’d never been a run-a-way, nor a drop out – and I came from a fairly well adjusted home. What I brought to the table was the fact that these kids ‘would’ tell me most everything, as I was no threat, nor would I turn on them. They trusted me and with that comes a great deal of ‘personal’ information that they really never shared with anyone else. It’s from that perspective that I was able to be of help to them. I think that help comes in many forms. This was one – and I think I share that with Tanya, if I’m reading her correctly. I’ve noted her mention something of this nature earlier and commented then on how much she reminded me of a very good friend, Gloria (a yoga skewl owner and instructor). I also believe, however, that in order for some people to get the intended message and/or advise being given, than it needs to be presented in such a way that may BEST reach the intended recipient. I don’t always follow that method other than in RL, when I know ‘just’ how the recipient will best HEAR what I’m trying to say. On the internet – the advantage of even the shortest of conversations to help discover what method might work best is lost. Now, I believe, that prestierpersonisncik should be applied when applicable! Do ya paint it on or use a flat stick ? Most of us have probably used all manner of substances for a variety of reasons. But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users. Particularly if the parents never indulged. Lots of us have let young people crash at our homes when their parents couldn’t cope with behavior they’ll never understand. Because I’m a music person, we tended to have mostly musicians and some fellow band mates, but even the occasionally tossed-out girls had plenty to say that helped us understand their feelings and needs. agree with ya . Ma

Disagreement is what makes horse racing profitable. For the record, when counseling young drug users, I always share my experiences. It helps to forge that critical link of credibility. I let them ask all the questions they like about how it was in the sixties and then they’re usually willing to open up about what it’s like now, and why they use. I should have said that I felt Tanya’s ramble about her life would not be of ‘much’ use to Kathy at this time. Picture me standing Ma

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"We have always treated our daughter with respect" I commend you for that, and submit that you don’t need a "reason". People should be treated with respect simply because it’s the right thing to do. No one is truly wise beyond their years, and that is evident now in her case too. "I really think that if we could get her away from him, she would be able to think clearly." Is your daughter a minor? If so, you can get her away from anybody. You simply tell her she will be home at **** time, and will not use the telephone except for **** purpose, and only for **** time. A family is not a democracy, you are in charge – she is not – that’s it, period. You say what goes, and what doesn’t. Do any less here, and your daughter may actually die as a result. Pay close attention to what I said and resist the temptation to make yet another snotty comeback about misjudging the group. You have misjudged your authority quotient as a parent, and it’s time to correct that problem – so just DO it. "Also, her judgement is not that of an adult." No it is not, and that is simply because she isn’t one. You can "respectfully" tell someone no, or set limits/boundaries. Doing that is a MUST here, and you can be perfectly respectful about it. It is because you respect your child and want her to survive that you are doing it in the first place. Your child is to respect you and you don’t have to have a reason (I know people will take me on here, please save it….) In this case you do actually have an ENORMOUS reason! Take out a restraining order, change her school, do WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO (and make it clear you will) to end her dealings with this person. If he was a child molester, what would you do? Start there. He has just as much potential to cause harm, so why should he be treated any differently??? That’s the best I have to offer up, those two posts – I hope they help you. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t – but they didn’t cost you a dime, so you haven’t lost anything – yet. Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Okay, I’ll check back later. I realize that this is controversial, Let me explain some things. My daughter’s best friend for the past year is a very charismatic, compulsive liar. He could be the next guy to get people to drink poison Kool-Aid enmasse. We did not realize how much of an effect he would have on her until it was too late. This is not to cede responsibility from us or her. Maybe something we did made her more susceptible to his influence. Could very well be. I really think that if we could get her away from him, she would be able to think clearly. Not necessarily clearly i.e. as we do, but make her own decisions again. Also, her judgement is not that of an adult. She thinks that she is bullet proof, as we all did. We have always treated our daughter with respect, because she was so insightful and wise beyond her years. This change in her personality has brought about an erosion in trust between us. We have tried to trust her again ad again, only to find that we were being taken for a ride. It is a two way street and we can’t trust anything she says any more. So the ruining of trust is already there. We want to believe her! Her lies are a lot easier on us than the truth. Living in denial would be much easier. Kathy I have been thinking and thinking about this… And I will think some more. It’s so important that I must (MUST) give the very best possible answer that I can, and honestly I just can’t do it right this minute (I don’t feel well, for some reason I’m not totally sure of). Please know though, that I will do the very best I possibly can with it. If that’s not enough (which it very well might not be) at least you can know it’s honest and from the heart/mind and some personal experience. Gary Hi all, It’s been a challenging week (read hellish). My husband and I are slowly swallowing the truth, which is that my daughter is involved in drugs way more than we may have thought. Mick and I saw a counselor to discuss our parenting options and strategies. The counselor was very good and did not sugar coat things for us. This Wednesday we will take Ann in for an assessment . They give her a urine analysis, and talk to her about her use and also talk to us about what we have seen and been through. Based on this, they develop a program from there. We are not telling her ahead of time, so it should be a scene. Whether she cooperates with them remains to be seen. We have to try. We don’t know how far down the path she is and the bottom line is we can only do what we can do. We don’t have control over the outcome. It’s not like when she was 3 and we could so easliy make her stop things that could hurt her . aqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ( my kitten typed this ) Needless to say, a panic disorder coupled with depression is less than an asset in this situation. The beginning of the week I would wake up at 4 in the morning with terrors: Cold sweat, heart beating fast, sick stomach. Total panic and run away thoughts of doom. I called my doctor and they added Buspar to my regiment of Lexapro and Alprazolam (xanax). I think it is helping already. We started going to Alanon meetings. I have been to 3 so far. I went to AA years ago, so I am a step ahead with knowing the principles. This is the hardest, scariest thing I have ever been through. The support I am getting at meetings is helping. Any support or encouragement you may have will be greatly appreciated folks. Just ideas on how one gets through these crisis times when they suffer from this blasted Panic Disorder. Thanks very much. KathyH

Response:

So, although I don’t exactly agree with Tayna, I do believe that she meant no harm and was simply telling it like she sees it. And how she sees it, may have something to do with the medication she may or may not be taking.

Melody? how did medication become an issue here? i am on no personality altering medications, i gave that up long ago. i would really appreciate it if you would consider those comments and what they imply before making them. i’ve been addicted to lortabs and got off them 8 years ago. since then i haven’t taken another drug that would be considered recreational. i’m on 1 mg of xanax a day, i’m down from 8. i feel a need to explain and be open about those things, although it wouldn’t have been even in my pictures if you hadn’t made the implication that my moods may be altered by a substance. I however, have been a little bitchy recently, and want you all to know i’m sorry, and will furthermore keep my opinions to myself on who who’s really messing up their lives.

it’s not your place to decide who’s messing up their lives. do you think it’s possible you have or are messing up YOUR life and perhaps would like to indulge your misery with company? that was unfair to all of us. and keeping your opinions to yourself is certainly an exquisite idea. you are serving no one with your projections, especially not yourself. love yourselves.

how bouts ya start with worrying about you and let tha rest of us worry about what we do with us. deal? deal. good. i’m glad we got that skrait ! ~tanya

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me.

whooooooah….ya sure? ya sure ya didn’t pre-judge it as a "say whad’ah wanna hear and tiptoe around my emotions" group? Kathy, stop that. yanno better’n that, yer in a bad place and i feel for ya, i am too, actually right now. i KNOW you wanna hear tha cold hard unedited harsh possibilities on a level you can’t possibly understand now when you’re suffering, i’m sure. but yanno what? you really don’t want to be molly-coddled, ya just don’t know how ta let all tha stuff effect you, it’s too overwhelming and scary. do sumthin’ tho. read it all, the good, the bad, the ugly. just go with it, hate it, disdain it, who cares. you can be pissed off all ya want, just listen ta what people are tellin’ ya’s out there. and next week we’ll dance with tha devil in tha pale moonlight’n go rollin’ in tha rushes down by tha riverside’n eat chicken wings’n drink PBR and primp each other’s beehives. for taday? grit yer teeth’n know it’ll be over in a couplah days, and i’m bettin’ yer thoughts will become wayyyyyy underwhelmed when tha truth comes out. <wink (is it EVER as bad as ya set yerself up for it ta be? no way.) ~tanya

Response:

"But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users." Ma, I have to say that I do respect you very highly and find you to be a person who is "decent" (a high compliment, in a world where that is less than common anymore) – however, in this case, I do not agree with that statement. Yes, drug abuse history does not a "qualified counselor" make, by definition, however it can sometimes offer up information otherwise unavailable. I think if the former abuser and their relationship patterns with parents share some commonality (or multiple commonalities) with the "at risk" parents (Kathy and her husband, in this case) it may shed some light on some knowledge or insights otherwise inaccessible to them. That is not to say that it WILL shed light, but it has the possibility to – so I do respectfully disagree. I only disagree because you used the word "absolutely" no use, and absolute is a little strong for me, when there is some possibility. Kindly, Gary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – shuffled Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. Since I don’t give out ‘personal’ advise at all – I’m quite consistent in saying nothing. Well, nothing to the original poster, anyhow. I’m reminded of when I was working with a half-way house in Madison, WI. I’d been through the drug days (years of it – without a single day of ‘not’ being high in one way or another). I was only in my 20s, and live-in counselor of the half-way house was a close friend, but I’d offered my help because of my ability to relate to younger kids who didn’t think anyone understood what they were going though. No, I did NOT understand what they were going though. I’d never been a run-a-way, nor a drop out – and I came from a fairly well adjusted home. What I brought to the table was the fact that these kids ‘would’ tell me most everything, as I was no threat, nor would I turn on them. They trusted me and with that comes a great deal of ‘personal’ information that they really never shared with anyone else. It’s from that perspective that I was able to be of help to them. I think that help comes in many forms. This was one – and I think I share that with Tanya, if I’m reading her correctly. I’ve noted her mention something of this nature earlier and commented then on how much she reminded me of a very good friend, Gloria (a yoga skewl owner and instructor). I also believe, however, that in order for some people to get the intended message and/or advise being given, than it needs to be presented in such a way that may BEST reach the intended recipient. I don’t always follow that method other than in RL, when I know ‘just’ how the recipient will best HEAR what I’m trying to say. On the internet – the advantage of even the shortest of conversations to help discover what method might work best is lost. Now, I believe, that prestierpersonisncik should be applied when applicable! Do ya paint it on or use a flat stick ? Most of us have probably used all manner of substances for a variety of reasons. But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users. Particularly if the parents never indulged. Lots of us have let young people crash at our homes when their parents couldn’t cope with behavior they’ll never understand. Because I’m a music person, we tended to have mostly musicians and some fellow band mates, but even the occasionally tossed-out girls had plenty to say that helped us understand their feelings and needs. agree with ya . Ma

Response:

If you ain’t a parent, you ain’t qualified to give advice,

does that mean if you ain’t tha easter bunny ya can’t color yer eggs? now that statement was wayyyyyyyyyyyy not how you feel, i’m guessin’. when i was dealing with my brother’s alcoholism, i would ask the counselor leadin’ the meetin’ if they were addicts. if they said "no", i said "then GET THA FUCK UP OUT’AH HERE AND GET US SUMBODY THAT UNDERSTANDS ADDICTION". i was totally adament about that, but again, you don’t know how many rehab programs i went through with him. it got to the point i was intolerent of some things that i knew were not condusive to an addict’s behavioral change. i didn’t know because i was dyin’ ta know, i knew because i had to. ya think a college grad is gonna be useful based on book schmartz? LOL and a summary of your experience is of no use to Kathy or any one else.

so you were invited to make decisions for Kathy and everyone else? i find it highly insulting to presume these people are not capable of making their own decisions. WAY more insulting than me posting my own experiences. but that’s just me. Why would they want some old woman’s list of sins at a time like this ?

yeah, i’m ancient. and yer a babe in tha woods, i’m glad we got THAT straight. where’s my list of sins, and where do your posts come from? Dr. Suess? seems ta me they come from yer own experience, so we got sumthin’ in common ! (or you just wanna grow up ta be JUST LIKE ME????? ) and p.s. (your insults only serve to diminish your character, as of course they don’t have anything to do with me. i know me, you don’t.) you know that was immature and uncalled for and actually, i’m quite shocked you would stoop to that level of assumption. i’m kinda cute fer an old chick ! (but then agin, i’m biased) lalalala… but b’cause i know that if ya knew me you’d luv me? i’m happy as’ah duck on’ah junebug ta share muh wisdom. don’t let me control you… if you allow me to motivate bitterness or any feelings that cause you to donate your own time to thoughts of me you have merely donated me your power and honestly, i’m not worthy ! let’s drink about it… i’m buyin ! _/ _/ (BOTTOMS UP !) yeowwwwwwww, i’m too old fer that. oh, you done mentioned that. OOPS ! hehehehe is this "time or two" logic is not satisfied by my pretty damn lengthy explanation of the levels of my involvement, all i can say is… 1: you have made a choice not to "listen" We are aware of your past experiences. Repeatedly bragging about what a bad woman you are gets boring.

man oh man, are you in a tizzy taday or WHUT? if i ain’t mistaken, i put me down more’n anyone in tha world ! and now i’m crushed you think i’m a bad woman. i thunk i was kinda aight. am i redundant? what experiences have i double-posted? i guess since i’m not a professional, all i have is my life as my only resource. and yeah, i been thru a lot that’s painful… that’s my only means of contribution. sorry i offended you. i’m gonna run out’n get me a Ph.D tho… wanna come? it’ll be FUNNNNN ! 2: you’re bound and determined i’m not qualified to speak from experience Being qualified by virtue of experience would make every junky a suitable counselor for any fellow junky.

MAAAAAAA !!!! assuming that i am or ever was a junkie, or any of these other assumptions is really startin’ to give the appearence that yer makin’ me way too important. now… let it be known (might as well, i let everything else be known ‘cordin to ya) i AM an opportunist, and if yer cute, i’d do ya. <wink 3: you have labelled my post to Kathy as "advice", and that is projectory, i have her a summation of my experience and a couple of suggestions. So - your suggestions don’t qualify as advice ?

if i suggest that you study a car digest before purchasing a car, does that mean i’m advising you to buy a toyota? exactly what would you like from me? if you feel i have nothing to offer and maybe i’m stealin’ some thunder you feel entitled to, i’ll leave tha group’n never return. i never stay where uninvited or where i am making anyone uncomfortable. i’ve never had that actually happen, but it’s how i feel, so just say tha word, i’ll leave. i have no investment in taking anything from you, even attention. i’m so not motivated to take from anyone. Are they just another way for you to post about what a wild child you were and all the big plans you have ?

i so don’t get your fantasies of my life, my dreams, etc. i have never said i was a wild child that i recall, i may have related that i was no different than anyone else in my era, it was a ’sign of tha times’. but if you think i’m bragging in any way, you reallllllly don’t know me. i’m getting the feeling you missed out on a ton as a kid and you’re projecting the passing of your youth without the benefit of indulging in things you could have partaken of in some arenas and you’ve chosen to visit your bitterness on me. i’m not responsible, i’m saddened you feel badly, but i promise you it has nothing to do with me. and big plans? i have no big plans, i have plans i’m proud of, would like to have this group participate in on many levels, and if that offends you, i would truly invite you to make some big plans of your own, you’re worth it, yanno. hell, come visit me ! now THAT’s a vaaaaa-caaaaaaa-shunnnnnn ! (fer real, you’d have’ah blast here. yer always welcome and invited.) 4: you are involved in passive-aggression,

i am? that kinda amazes me as i make a concious effort to be direct, forthcoming, and give as much information as i can about myself to allow others to make informed, valued decisions regarding me. i feel it’s my responsibility to offer information, and if you’ll look closely… most everything i offer about myself is stuff that at one time i was so ashamed of and cared so much about what people thought and feared being judged and disliked that i never shared any information. do you see me as anything BUT direct? if you see me as passive aggressive, i find it difficult to ascertain where you’re getting all this information you claim i’ve unwelcomely offered. passive aggression is manipulation and control unspoken to obtain power. which, in my book, ithose are the only 5 choices i see as sensical at the moment, but then again, i just woke up,

(ya might wanna roll over and get up on tha other side’ah tha bed !!!!) i’m sure i may be able to come up with a few more optionss

if you insist on dwelling on me, i can only be flattered. i’m amazed you find me intriguing enough to spend time with even a fleeting thought of me, but thank you the most chicken shit form of communication, falling WAY behind "direct".

again, i’m obviously not aware, could you please give me some examples of my chicken shit form of communication? it would be much appreciated, i welcome the opportunity to see my flaws and focus on making changes. Did you ever request direct communication ?

i let people be people. i don’t request them to tailor their behavior to suit my tastes. i prefer to see the raw, iron, soul. And where did you read about passive aggressive behavior ?

(bathroom wall) 5: you are as bored as you are boring and wanna be combative. My comments are not about combat. Perhaps all that drug use has created paranoid pathways ?

your projections of my drug use with no statistical information is just uncanny. i swear you’re makin’ me feel like i should be on tha ‘cover of tha rollin’ stones’ !!! (to hate me so much is to make me important. don’t do that, you’re above that. c’mon… treat yourself well… use that time you’re spendin’ on me to do something for YOU ! ) there ain’t one dang reason to be combative with me, BM. ya see, i don’t know you, i have read i think 1/2 of one of your posts and it was quotes from someone else. Then you don’t understand the written word well enough to comment.

i’m with ya on that one ! i actually can’t read an entire paragraph, i’ve never read a book in my life. you don’t know me or you would know that i don’t really care to do battle with those that are meaningless to me or even worse… blend. you blend, but i suppose that is more common than rare, just never been part of my world. Then why bother to respond ?

it’s my nature to interact with people on any level, especially when i’m so effecting their life, as i seem to be yours. i’d like to free you of that burden, i’m truly not very important. And who IS meaningful to you ?

everyone in general and very few in particular. my best friend (my Brother) was the most meaningful to me. i guess i really haven’t filled that void as maybe i should have by now. Other than yourself.

see above. develop a personality and a little vigor and lust for life and become noticable and perhaps we can chat someday. Is this a pissing contest about who does more good or who can use abusive assaults to try and prove they are not a loser ?

it’s not a contest, i never compete. my comments were based on your obvious disdain for me, the fact that i’ve been around seems to bother you, perhaps if you knew the reasons for this, you wouldn’t be so harsh. when relating my life i try to avoid details that suggest i may consider myself a victim, i try to stick to the fun stuff and share a piece of me with others as i love y’all sharing your lives with me. for some reason, i seem to have really infiltrated your life in a negative way. i can’t control that, but i can wish you to shed that feeling… my life impacting anyone in such a negative way concerns me. if there’s anything you need from me to eliminate this obsession you seem to have that is hurting you, i’m here to offer any assistance. i mean that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in tha meantime, i have a magazine

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and shuffled Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. Since I don’t give out ‘personal’ advise at all – I’m quite consistent in saying nothing. Well, nothing to the original poster, anyhow. I’m reminded of when I was working with a half-way house in Madison, WI. I’d been through the drug days (years of it – without a single day of ‘not’ being high in one way or another). I was only in my 20s, and live-in counselor of the half-way house was a close friend, but I’d offered my help because of my ability to relate to younger kids who didn’t think anyone understood what they were going though. No, I did NOT understand what they were going though. I’d never been a run-a-way, nor a drop out – and I came from a fairly well adjusted home. What I brought to the table was the fact that these kids ‘would’ tell me most everything, as I was no threat, nor would I turn on them. They trusted me and with that comes a great deal of ‘personal’ information that they really never shared with anyone else. It’s from that perspective that I was able to be of help to them. I think that help comes in many forms. This was one – and I think I share that with Tanya, if I’m reading her correctly. I’ve noted her mention something of this nature earlier and commented then on how much she reminded me of a very good friend, Gloria (a yoga skewl owner and instructor). I also believe, however, that in order for some people to get the intended message and/or advise being given, than it needs to be presented in such a way that may BEST reach the intended recipient. I don’t always follow that method other than in RL, when I know ‘just’ how the recipient will best HEAR what I’m trying to say. On the internet – the advantage of even the shortest of conversations to help discover what method might work best is lost. Now, I believe, that prestierpersonisncik should be applied when applicable! Do ya paint it on or use a flat stick ? Most of us have probably used all manner of substances for a variety of reasons. But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users. Particularly if the parents never indulged. Lots of us have let young people crash at our homes when their parents couldn’t cope with behavior they’ll never understand. Because I’m a music person, we tended to have mostly musicians and some fellow band mates, but even the occasionally tossed-out girls had plenty to say that helped us understand their feelings and needs. In lots of other Ma So does I. And I lived in a big house with many young people, friends of my children. We hardly ever were with fewer than ten people at the dinner table and I met all kinds of young folk, I kinda miss that. Some stayed with us for years, one of them for ten years. Once or twice I met somebody on the stairs who had a key to the house and seemed to live there too but I didn’t know them Of course there was some drug use. When my daughter started to get interested in drugs when she was 14 (and *gothic*) I noticed immediately. As my PD was triggered by flashbacks of a bad trip on the nasty hallucinogen STP back in the late sixties I *did* talk to her and her friends and her brother. There *are* ways of talking to young people who trust and love you (because they are loved and trusted too, I presume) and make it clear that the risk-benefit ratio of taking some substances (MDMA among them) is dubious to say the least. Most (but not all) of them stopped taking pills, my daughter did go on doing pot and still does now that she’s a 27 year old social worker and that’s always been fine with me (yes, there *are* risks, especially with regard to Dutch "skunk" which has incredibly high THC levels, nothing like the sixties stuff – now she only smokes hash, a joint a day, I still love the smell of hash – the skunk smells like cat piss . Anyway, I digress. I *never* told them to stop, I just gave out some anecdotal information and let them decide for themselves. The worst thing to do IMO is make a *moral* issue out of it, it isn’t. I agree that it must be hard for parents who never lived that kind of life. I had been out on the streets and in shady company when I was young and one never loses that feeling completely so I was always a kid with the kids, so to speak, just a bit older and I had a lot of credibility because of our own lifestyle which some would maybe call "bohemian" or something like that. I enjoyed those years, I am still in touch with a number of them but now that I live with my dear wife I do miss having all those young people around and having all these idiotic things happen and weird characters dropping in at ungodly hours… Oh well, this was going to be about parents and drug using children but it developed into a piece of nostalgia, sorry about that. Use the deleton button. Philip

Nice trip down memory lane Phil. You spent your life in pretty much the same way we did. Lots of young people around, day and night. Lots of live music nights and plenty of laughs. Ya just gotta give ‘em the benefit of your knowledge and hope for the best. You’re so right - having them trust you first is the most important thing. Ma

Response:

Tanya – are all of your kids grown up and gone already ? How many ? How’d they turn out ? All of mine experimented, partied their little brains out and survived because they were flat out cheap. The cost of coke and what not could have kept them from having their own apartments and making payments on decent vehicles, so my job was a breeze. Couldn’t be a hypocrite and tell them all kinds of horror stories. They knew me, and what I did for fun when I was young. So I just suggested that they be cool and not stupid about their choices. Told ‘em they could always come home. Assured them that I was not the kind of mama that would bail there delicate asses out if they got busted. And advised that if they got popped, to NEVER volunteer anything. They are all well established now and self sufficient. Not one loser in the bunch. No surprise babies. But not everyone is that lucky. It’s a very different world than it was twenty or thirty years ago. Kids are using a whole new family of chemicals. Using earlier and more intensely. At the time when the front parts of their gray matter are not yet ready to make good judgment decisions, along comes doctor feel good. And they’re ready. Kathy and her husband have made a currently popular choice for intervention. I wish ‘em luck. Hope we get to hear how it went down. Ma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It’s been a challenging week (read hellish). My husband and I are slowly swallowing the truth, which is that my daughter is involved in drugs way more than we may have thought. ‘ Mick and I saw a counselor to discuss our parenting options and strategies. Kathy, most/all kids try drugs, it’s part of life. I did, we did, most all my friends….well… ALL my friends did, and of course my parents freaked about it. of course that’s the major contributory factor in my continuence of this behavior on up inta my 20’s, and yanno what? if they’d have stayed out’ah my fuckin’ business 24/7, out’ah muh grill, stopped chasin’ my ass, cuttin’ tha rope ta get back UP my balcony to my room and let me have my little "teen queen drama", i’d'ah been way closer ta done with that lil phase of muh life from tha jump than my 30th birthday. parents make that shit such’ah big deal it becomes attractive. have you ever considered remembering when you were a teenager and what motivated you? if it’s THAT intriguing, there MUST be sumthin’ too it? (it wasn’t that long ago, i’m sure) and unless i’m wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy off-base and y’all were as skrait-edge as a ’skater dude’… ya KNOW rebellion could’ah been avoided. it’s human nature ta "touch the wet paint". hell, nobody’d ever touch the friggin’ stairs if they didn’t have a sign sayin "WET PAINT…DO NOT TOUCH !" ya really think that you ain’t gonna piss her off to tha point of her sayin "buck you, fuddy. ya fuck wimme, ya stuck wimme’n ya done pissed my ass right off, i’ll show YOU?" well, it would’ah me. i’m only speakin’ from experience, and maybe i was an unusual case. <ahem but it’s maybe an angle to consider. i know i’m gonna catch shit about this post, and watch my "care tracks". i’d be more worried if my kid DIDN’T have tha balls to experience life, cuz i’d be damn frightened he/she wouldn’t ‘grab tha gusto’ and take every twist and turn in life available. how boring. if ya don’t learn ta take tha bull by tha horns as a young adult, juice life, squeeze tha charmin… you’ll NEVER discover shit in life. the road most travelled could possibly become the doom of the uninterested/uninteresting. the path of least resistence has led to many a success story, i’m sure. i can’t think of one at tha moment, ’success without risk’ examples elude me at tha moment. i ain’t sayin doin drugs is right or wrong or if there is a right or wrong. i’m sayin’ "welcome to tha planet, stuff exists, stuff ya ain’t gonna have control over (or the illusion of control as there is no such thing as control) so live’n let live. SOOOOOOOO, she’s a kid… ain’t that the time ta get this crap over’n done with’n move on ta discovering the world and all it has ta offer? (after all, it ain’t gonna kill’er, so it’ll make her stronger,(ain’t that how tha cliche’ goes? and cliche’s’re cliche’s because they’re true, eh?) think she could possibly be less fearful of the gifts of life that parental overprotection or overreaction could thieve from her very soul and damper her lust for life? she may never learn she can take the road less travelled, come to the fork in that road’n take it. she could end up less than exquisitely worldly, possibly even a taker of no risks. (personally, a worse plight is unbeknownst ta me.) The counselor was very good and did not sugar coat things for us. This Wednesday we will take Ann in for an assessment . They give her a urine analysis, and talk to her about her use and also talk to us about what we have seen and been through. Based on this, they develop a program from there. We are not telling her ahead of time, of course not. blind side her. it soooooo builds a firm foundation for a healthy familial relationship, i’d embed pop rocks in yer toilet paper if it was me, or comet in tha sugar bowl. wasn’t nooooooo mo fo gunna leave MY cheese out’n tha wind when i was a kid… ‘yer brain’s stupid, yer body pays, parents or not, ya done went’n dissed me’n earned my contempt.’ (maybe i grew out’ah that) while yer at it, why doncha just put an ad in tha paper that says "I DO NOT TRUST MY DAUGHTER, SHE DESERVES NO FOREWARNING WHEN WE’RE SETTIN’ HER UP TA PROVE SHE AIN’T DOIN SUMTHIN INSTEAD OF SETTIN’ HER UP FOR SUCCESS !!!!" i mean… if yer gonna hoe that road, hoe it LOUD’N PROUD ! take PRIDE in your actions, advertise them. so it should be a scene. if y’all were MY parents… there’d be a SHOW DOWN FROM THA FLO DOWN, AND I DON’T MEAN DOWNTOWN, i would’ah eaten y’all’s lunch and counted the beer bottles and marked every liquor bottle in your house’n filled ‘em with mineral oil, dug every controlled substance out’ah every nook’n cranny in yer perfectly manicured dwelling in "suburbia, USA" and made ‘crafts for tha homeless’ with em. (if there are any) or i’d find SOME way to invade your privacy, i might even mention "MOM BEING RELIEVED THAT DAD DOESN’T HAVE TO WEAR RUBBERS ANYMORE SINCE SHE’S NOW GOING THROUGH MENOPAUSE AND HOW HAPPY SHE IS SHE DOESN’T HAVE TA SWALLOW THAT STUFF TASTES LIKE AND LOOKS LIKE SUMTHIN’ THA CONSISTENCY OF SNOT" at the most fashionable dinner possible amongst your closest friends/associates, AND OF COURSE at tha next church function…but hey. that’s just what i’d'ah done. she may have more dignity. i had none. i didn’t believe in karma back then, i MANUFACTURED it. Whether she cooperates with them remains to be seen. We have to try. …and realistically, what do you hope to accomplish by this lil ‘bamboozlement’? puh-leeeeeeeze don’t gimme tha ole "help, counselling, tuff-love, i’m a martyr" routine, it’s soooooooooo 5 minutes ago. i got 2 schools of thought, please indulge me. 1: she’ll be on drugs and now ya know, ya found out by deception and she’s gonna get ruffer’n tuffer’n inta that scene. 2: she’ll be cleaner’n a whistle, but pissed, betrayed… and DAMN SURE PLAY THA GAME IF SHE’S GONNA BE ACCUSED OF WEARIN’ THA NAME game. 3: she’ll get pregnant just ta get out of the prison systematically created around her and entrapping her. 4: she’ll be tha prom queen’n the next CEO of Maybelline. We don’t know how far down the path she is and the bottom line is we can only do what we can do. We don’t have control over the outcome. BAM ! now THAT was’ah ‘nail on tha head’ hitter, if i ever seen one. CONGRATS ! It’s not like when she was 3 and we could so easliy make her stop things that could hurt her . preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-CISELY ! yer makin’ muh POINT ! aqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ( my kitten typed this (control that cat, gurllllllllll !!! <wink) Needless to say, a panic disorder coupled with depression is less than an asset in this situation. simple suggestion: stop creating the situation. there may not even be one, but there damn sure’s gonna be… yer creatin’ yer destiny, mark my words. The beginning of the week I would wake up at 4 in the morning with terrors: Cold sweat, heart beating fast, sick stomach. Total panic and run away thoughts of doom. I called my doctor and they added Buspar to my regiment of Lexapro and Alprazolam (xanax). and yer piss testin’ HER?!?! (maybe her role model needs a lil tinkle test, herself. ya think them things ya just mentioned ain’t drugs? cuz they got’ah legal dealer’s name on em? PLEASE STOP, YER HURTIN’ ME, I’M GONNA VOMIT NOW IF YOU SAY YOU AIN’T ON DRUGS… …and parents just shake their heads’n go "but she wasn’t raisssssssssssed this way"… THE PROVERBIAL RIVER YER LOOKIN’ FOR’S 2 BLOCKS UP, TAKE A LEFT AT THA LIGHT, and WALK LIKE AN EGYPTIAN ! I think it is helping already. WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL now… if tha shelter’ah mother’s little helper’s yer gig, who’re you ta call tha kettle black ? (looks like ya might have the hereditary "pot" on yer hands there. ya reckon?) We started going to Alanon meetings. I have been to 3 so far. wow… me too, i only got kicked out’ah two tho. (whiners make me mouthy… i know that’s hard ta believe.) I went to AA years ago, so I am a step ahead with knowing the principles. This is the hardest, scariest thing I have ever been through. The support I am getting at meetings is helping. Any support or encouragement you may have will be greatly appreciated folks. Just ideas on how one gets through

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – shuffled Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. Since I don’t give out ‘personal’ advise at all – I’m quite consistent in saying nothing. Well, nothing to the original poster, anyhow. I’m reminded of when I was working with a half-way house in Madison, WI. I’d been through the drug days (years of it – without a single day of ‘not’ being high in one way or another). I was only in my 20s, and live-in counselor of the half-way house was a close friend, but I’d offered my help because of my ability to relate to younger kids who didn’t think anyone understood what they were going though. No, I did NOT understand what they were going though. I’d never been a run-a-way, nor a drop out – and I came from a fairly well adjusted home. What I brought to the table was the fact that these kids ‘would’ tell me most everything, as I was no threat, nor would I turn on them. They trusted me and with that comes a great deal of ‘personal’ information that they really never shared with anyone else. It’s from that perspective that I was able to be of help to them. I think that help comes in many forms. This was one – and I think I share that with Tanya, if I’m reading her correctly. I’ve noted her mention something of this nature earlier and commented then on how much she reminded me of a very good friend, Gloria (a yoga skewl owner and instructor). I also believe, however, that in order for some people to get the intended message and/or advise being given, than it needs to be presented in such a way that may BEST reach the intended recipient. I don’t always follow that method other than in RL, when I know ‘just’ how the recipient will best HEAR what I’m trying to say. On the internet – the advantage of even the shortest of conversations to help discover what method might work best is lost. Now, I believe, that prestierpersonisncik should be applied when applicable! Do ya paint it on or use a flat stick ? Most of us have probably used all manner of substances for a variety of reasons. But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users. Particularly if the parents never indulged. Lots of us have let young people crash at our homes when their parents couldn’t cope with behavior they’ll never understand. Because I’m a music person, we tended to have mostly musicians and some fellow band mates, but even the occasionally tossed-out girls had plenty to say that helped us understand their feelings and needs. In lots of other Ma

So does I. And I lived in a big house with many young people, friends of my children. We hardly ever were with fewer than ten people at the dinner table and I met all kinds of young folk, I kinda miss that. Some stayed with us for years, one of them for ten years. Once or twice I met somebody on the stairs who had a key to the house and seemed to live there too but I didn’t know them Of course there was some drug use. When my daughter started to get interested in drugs when she was 14 (and *gothic*) I noticed immediately. As my PD was triggered by flashbacks of a bad trip on the nasty hallucinogen STP back in the late sixties I *did* talk to her and her friends and her brother. There *are* ways of talking to young people who trust and love you (because they are loved and trusted too, I presume) and make it clear that the risk-benefit ratio of taking some substances (MDMA among them) is dubious to say the least. Most (but not all) of them stopped taking pills, my daughter did go on doing pot and still does now that she’s a 27 year old social worker and that’s always been fine with me (yes, there *are* risks, especially with regard to Dutch "skunk" which has incredibly high THC levels, nothing like the sixties stuff – now she only smokes hash, a joint a day, I still love the smell of hash – the skunk smells like cat piss . Anyway, I digress. I *never* told them to stop, I just gave out some anecdotal information and let them decide for themselves. The worst thing to do IMO is make a *moral* issue out of it, it isn’t. I agree that it must be hard for parents who never lived that kind of life. I had been out on the streets and in shady company when I was young and one never loses that feeling completely so I was always a kid with the kids, so to speak, just a bit older and I had a lot of credibility because of our own lifestyle which some would maybe call "bohemian" or something like that. I enjoyed those years, I am still in touch with a number of them but now that I live with my dear wife I do miss having all those young people around and having all these idiotic things happen and weird characters dropping in at ungodly hours… Oh well, this was going to be about parents and drug using children but it developed into a piece of nostalgia, sorry about that. Use the deleton button. Philip

Response:

are you all aware that about 80% of social workers that interact with teen-agers have NO kids..and in mot cases unless that social worker doesn’t work for DSHS or cps he/ she has very little education?(DSHS sez they can train anyone to be a social worker who can then deside if she should destroy your family in about three weeks) your kids and I’m sure that you understand that most drug and alcohol counselors have about 6 months of inhouse education? and most of those counselors are addicts themselves. So, although I don’t exactly agree with Tayna, I do believe that she meant no harm and was simply telling it like she sees it. And how she sees it, may have something to do with the medication she may or may not be taking. I however, have been a little bitchy recently, and want you all to know i’m sorry, and will furthermore keep my opinions to myself on who who’s really messing up their lives. love yourselves. melody

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OKay, Let me embellish more. I indudlged a lot when I was a teen. I smoked pot 3 times a day for 3 years and drank to excess whenever I could. I did the whole AA thing etc because my life sucked. I guess what it boils down to is that all of you just can not possibly imagine what this is like for me. I could just keep my nose out the the situtation and be there for her when she needs it. What if that’s too late. Plus, she is way too influenced by the maniac ( truly) friend of hers. me. shuffled Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. Since I don’t give out ‘personal’ advise at all – I’m quite consistent in saying nothing. Well, nothing to the original poster, anyhow. I’m reminded of when I was working with a half-way house in Madison, WI. I’d been through the drug days (years of it – without a single day of ‘not’ being high in one way or another). I was only in my 20s, and live-in counselor of the half-way house was a close friend, but I’d offered my help because of my ability to relate to younger kids who didn’t think anyone understood what they were going though. No, I did NOT understand what they were going though. I’d never been a run-a-way, nor a drop out – and I came from a fairly well adjusted home. What I brought to the table was the fact that these kids ‘would’ tell me most everything, as I was no threat, nor would I turn on them. They trusted me and with that comes a great deal of ‘personal’ information that they really never shared with anyone else. It’s from that perspective that I was able to be of help to them. I think that help comes in many forms. This was one – and I think I share that with Tanya, if I’m reading her correctly. I’ve noted her mention something of this nature earlier and commented then on how much she reminded me of a very good friend, Gloria (a yoga skewl owner and instructor). I also believe, however, that in order for some people to get the intended message and/or advise being given, than it needs to be presented in such a way that may BEST reach the intended recipient. I don’t always follow that method other than in RL, when I know ‘just’ how the recipient will best HEAR what I’m trying to say. On the internet – the advantage of even the shortest of conversations to help discover what method might work best is lost. Now, I believe, that prestierpersonisncik should be applied when applicable! Do ya paint it on or use a flat stick ? Most of us have probably used all manner of substances for a variety of reasons. But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users. Particularly if the parents never indulged. Lots of us have let young people crash at our homes when their parents couldn’t cope with behavior they’ll never understand. Because I’m a music person, we tended to have mostly musicians and some fellow band mates, but even the occasionally tossed-out girls had plenty to say that helped us understand their feelings and needs. In lots of other Ma

Response:

OKay, Let me embellish more. I indudlged a lot when I was a teen. I smoked pot 3 times a day for 3 years and drank to excess whenever I could. I did the whole AA thing etc because my life sucked. I guess what it boils down to is that all of you just can not possibly imagine what this is like for me. I could just keep my nose out the the situtation and be there for her when she needs it. What if that’s too late. Plus, she is way too influenced by the maniac ( truly) friend of hers. me.

Response:

Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. i’m assuming that you read my posts. that should set your logical mind at ease. did i not say CLEARLY that i had been through drug use myself? did i not say CLEARLY that i have been involved with kids on drugs, selling drugs, avoiding drug testing, soliciting drug users, etc. via my position in life for 16 years?

If you ain’t a parent, you ain’t qualified to give advice, and a summary of your experience is of no use to Kathy or any one else. Why would they want some old woman’s list of sins at a time like this ? is this "time or two" logic is not satisfied by my pretty damn lengthy explanation of the levels of my involvement, all i can say is… 1: you have made a choice not to "listen"

We are aware of your past experiences. Repeatedly bragging about what a bad woman you are gets boring. 2: you’re bound and determined i’m not qualified to speak from experience

Being qualified by virtue of experience would make every junky a suitable counselor for any fellow junky. 3: you have labelled my post to Kathy as "advice", and that is projectory, i have her a summation of my experience and a couple of suggestions.

So - your suggestions don’t qualify as advice ? Are they just another way for you to post about what a wild child you were and all the big plans you have ? 4: you are involved in passive-aggression, which, in my book, ithose are the only 5 choices i see as sensical at the moment, but then again, i just woke up, i’m sure i may be able to come up with a few more optionss the most chicken shit form of communication, falling WAY behind "direct".

Did you ever request direct communication ? And where did you read about passive aggressive behavior ? 5: you are as bored as you are boring and wanna be combative.

My comments are not about combat. Perhaps all that drug use has created paranoid pathways ? there ain’t one dang reason to be combative with me, BM. ya see, i don’t know you, i have read i think 1/2 of one of your posts and it was quotes from someone else.

Then you don’t understand the written word well enough to comment. you don’t know me or you would know that i don’t really care to do battle with those that are meaningless to me or even worse… blend. you blend, but i suppose that is more common than rare, just never been part of my world.

Then why bother to respond ? And who IS meaningful to you ? Other than yourself. develop a personality and a little vigor and lust for life and become noticable and perhaps we can chat someday.

Is this a pissing contest about who does more good or who can use abusive assaults to try and prove they are not a loser ? in tha meantime, i have a magazine to publish, 2 tattoo shops to open, several media events to attend, and a ABC affiliate luncheon with my ex, the anchorman for this station to launch my new magazine.

Yeah – right. Bet the Secretary of State is waiting to talk to you as well. i have a flight out tomorrow that will return on wednesday, i could be out of pocket, but it WILL give you some time to rise from the ashes and create or even DEVELOP, for chrissake a possible link or connection you may wish to have with me if you care to communicate with me.

I have no reason to communicate with you personally. There is nothing to be gained from it. Unless we had run into each other at Cars by the Creek and then hit The Firehouse for some smoked meat. also, i welcome any grandmotherly advice you may have for me, i welcome it. i’m never too closed minded to learn from anyone. i consider it a gift, one not to be questioned via ‘credentials’… but then again, i’m a pretty free spirit, still kinda bohemian, still a bit accepting.

The very last thing you are is a free spirit kiddo. Just because you only fit into a sub culture where acceptance is based on common abnormalities, you do not qualify as interesting. The good you are hoping to do will help with that. i’m sure my energy level will dissipate with time and i’ll develop extremely blase’ characterics. it happens, so i guess i better enjoy it while it lasts, eh?

For sure. Party your ass off before you become just a boring citizen and don’t stand out in any crowd. It happens to everyone in time. And continue to use your fire for real stuff. it’s cool if you’re comfort zone is to allow your spirit to survive, i just find it much more interesting to do so with passion, style, and panache ! (but that’s just me)

Better check out what qualifies as passion for you. Anger and bitterness are not marks of a lust for life. it’s tuff bein tha "IT" gurlllllllll, it’s SUCH a responsibility.

And the fact that no one cares must make it painful for you. Some big thing is missing in your life. Hope you find it soon. please trust me on that one, ok? or i could show ya my TIARA ! YAY YAY YAY !

I trust you completely.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two. Since I don’t give out ‘personal’ advise at all – I’m quite consistent in saying nothing. Well, nothing to the original poster, anyhow. I’m reminded of when I was working with a half-way house in Madison, WI. I’d been through the drug days (years of it – without a single day of ‘not’ being high in one way or another). I was only in my 20s, and live-in counselor of the half-way house was a close friend, but I’d offered my help because of my ability to relate to younger kids who didn’t think anyone understood what they were going though. No, I did NOT understand what they were going though. I’d never been a run-a-way, nor a drop out – and I came from a fairly well adjusted home. What I brought to the table was the fact that these kids ‘would’ tell me most everything, as I was no threat, nor would I turn on them. They trusted me and with that comes a great deal of ‘personal’ information that they really never shared with anyone else. It’s from that perspective that I was able to be of help to them. I think that help comes in many forms. This was one – and I think I share that with Tanya, if I’m reading her correctly. I’ve noted her mention something of this nature earlier and commented then on how much she reminded me of a very good friend, Gloria (a yoga skewl owner and instructor). I also believe, however, that in order for some people to get the intended message and/or advise being given, than it needs to be presented in such a way that may BEST reach the intended recipient. I don’t always follow that method other than in RL, when I know ‘just’ how the recipient will best HEAR what I’m trying to say. On the internet – the advantage of even the shortest of conversations to help discover what method might work best is lost. Now, I believe, that prestierpersonisncik should be applied when applicable!

Do ya paint it on or use a flat stick ? Most of us have probably used all manner of substances for a variety of reasons. But our experience is of absolutely no use to parents of drug users. Particularly if the parents never indulged. Lots of us have let young people crash at our homes when their parents couldn’t cope with behavior they’ll never understand. Because I’m a music person, we tended to have mostly musicians and some fellow band mates, but even the occasionally tossed-out girls had plenty to say that helped us understand their feelings and needs. In lots of other Ma

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tanya – are all of your kids grown up and gone already ? who/what/where motivated the assumption that i have kids? (well, cept fer Gary’s luv chile) How many ? just da one, (Gary won’t put out’n less i beg, and BOY DO MY KNEES HURT ! How’d they turn out ? extra crispy.

Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two.

Response:

Since you were offering all that "advice" to Kathy, it would seem logical that you’d been through the experience yourself a time or two.

i’m assuming that you read my posts. that should set your logical mind at ease. did i not say CLEARLY that i had been through drug use myself? did i not say CLEARLY that i have been involved with kids on drugs, selling drugs, avoiding drug testing, soliciting drug users, etc. via my position in life for 16 years? is this "time or two" logic is not satisfied by my pretty damn lengthy explanation of the levels of my involvement, all i can say is… 1: you have made a choice not to "listen" 2: you’re bound and determined i’m not qualified to speak from experience 3: you have labelled my post to Kathy as "advice", and that is projectory, i have her a summation of my experience and a couple of suggestions. 4: you are involved in passive-aggression, which, in my book, ithose are the only 5 choices i see as sensical at the moment, but then again, i just woke up, i’m sure i may be able to come up with a few more optionss the most chicken shit form of communication, falling WAY behind "direct". 5: you are as bored as you are boring and wanna be combative. there ain’t one dang reason to be combative with me, BM. ya see, i don’t know you, i have read i think 1/2 of one of your posts and it was quotes from someone else. you don’t know me or you would know that i don’t really care to do battle with those that are meaningless to me or even worse… blend. you blend, but i suppose that is more common than rare, just never been part of my world. develop a personality and a little vigor and lust for life and become noticable and perhaps we can chat someday. in tha meantime, i have a magazine to publish, 2 tattoo shops to open, several media events to attend, and a ABC affiliate luncheon with my ex, the anchorman for this station to launch my new magazine. i have a flight out tomorrow that will return on wednesday, i could be out of pocket, but it WILL give you some time to rise from the ashes and create or even DEVELOP, for chrissake a possible link or connection you may wish to have with me if you care to communicate with me. also, i welcome any grandmotherly advice you may have for me, i welcome it. i’m never too closed minded to learn from anyone. i consider it a gift, one not to be questioned via ‘credentials’… but then again, i’m a pretty free spirit, still kinda bohemian, still a bit accepting. i’m sure my energy level will dissipate with time and i’ll develop extremely blase’ characterics. it happens, so i guess i better enjoy it while it lasts, eh? it’s cool if you’re comfort zone is to allow your spirit to survive, i just find it much more interesting to do so with passion, style, and panache ! (but that’s just me) it’s tuff bein tha "IT" gurlllllllll, it’s SUCH a responsibility. please trust me on that one, ok? or i could show ya my TIARA ! YAY YAY YAY !

Response:

Okay, I’ll check back later. I realize that this is controversial, Let me explain some things. My daughter’s best friend for the past year is a very charismatic, compulsive liar. He could be the next guy to get people to drink poison Kool-Aid enmasse. We did not realize how much of an effect he would have on her until it was too late. This is not to cede responsibility from us or her. Maybe something we did made her more susceptible to his influence. Could very well be. I really think that if we could get her away from him, she would be able to think clearly. Not necessarily clearly i.e. as we do, but make her own decisions again. Also, her judgement is not that of an adult. She thinks that she is bullet proof, as we all did. We have always treated our daughter with respect, because she was so insightful and wise beyond her years. This change in her personality has brought about an erosion in trust between us. We have tried to trust her again ad again, only to find that we were being taken for a ride. It is a two way street and we can’t trust anything she says any more. So the ruining of trust is already there. We want to believe her! Her lies are a lot easier on us than the truth. Living in denial would be much easier. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been thinking and thinking about this… And I will think some more. It’s so important that I must (MUST) give the very best possible answer that I can, and honestly I just can’t do it right this minute (I don’t feel well, for some reason I’m not totally sure of). Please know though, that I will do the very best I possibly can with it. If that’s not enough (which it very well might not be) at least you can know it’s honest and from the heart/mind and some personal experience. Gary Hi all, It’s been a challenging week (read hellish). My husband and I are slowly swallowing the truth, which is that my daughter is involved in drugs way more than we may have thought. Mick and I saw a counselor to discuss our parenting options and strategies. The counselor was very good and did not sugar coat things for us. This Wednesday we will take Ann in for an assessment . They give her a urine analysis, and talk to her about her use and also talk to us about what we have seen and been through. Based on this, they develop a program from there. We are not telling her ahead of time, so it should be a scene. Whether she cooperates with them remains to be seen. We have to try. We don’t know how far down the path she is and the bottom line is we can only do what we can do. We don’t have control over the outcome. It’s not like when she was 3 and we could so easliy make her stop things that could hurt her . aqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ( my kitten typed this ) Needless to say, a panic disorder coupled with depression is less than an asset in this situation. The beginning of the week I would wake up at 4 in the morning with terrors: Cold sweat, heart beating fast, sick stomach. Total panic and run away thoughts of doom. I called my doctor and they added Buspar to my regiment of Lexapro and Alprazolam (xanax). I think it is helping already. We started going to Alanon meetings. I have been to 3 so far. I went to AA years ago, so I am a step ahead with knowing the principles. This is the hardest, scariest thing I have ever been through. The support I am getting at meetings is helping. Any support or encouragement you may have will be greatly appreciated folks. Just ideas on how one gets through these crisis times when they suffer from this blasted Panic Disorder. Thanks very much. KathyH

Response:

Tanya – are all of your kids grown up and gone already ?

who/what/where motivated the assumption that i have kids? (well, cept fer Gary’s luv chile) How many ? just da one, (Gary won’t put out’n less i beg, and BOY DO MY KNEES HURT ! How’d they turn out ? extra crispy.

Response:

I have been thinking and thinking about this… And I will think some more. It’s so important that I must (MUST) give the very best possible answer that I can, and honestly I just can’t do it right this minute (I don’t feel well, for some reason I’m not totally sure of). Please know though, that I will do the very best I possibly can with it. If that’s not enough (which it very well might not be) at least you can know it’s honest and from the heart/mind and some personal experience. Gary

Response:

I completely agree with Tanya overall – although I was a little confused too by her initial approach. Although, I’m not an expert on drugs of any kind, I would suggest that the drugs you are taking are potentially a lot more harmful than ecstasy! Have a look at this: http://www.maps.org/mdma/ Also have a look for info about Peter Jennings’ criticism of the US governments claims about E. Conversely, if you want a good scare, have a look at the information available out there (a lot of it anecdotal, but interesting never the less) on the drugs you are taking! Talk about addicting! Drug companies make a heck of a lot of $ "testing" their products on us. Unfortunately those same companies aren’t too forthcoming with negative test results, so we have to rely on anecdotal/testimonial evidence. I humbly suggest that you look to emotional explanations and solutions to your anxiety with a therapist – not a psychiatrist! I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to raise your kids – I sure appreciate your care and concern for them though. I hope your actions in this situation will bring you closer (towards more intimacy) with your daughter and won’t create more mistrust. The single greatest cause of any "addiction", illegal or legal, is emotional numbing. If you talk openly and honestly with your daughter, you’ll do a world of good to ensure that her recreational drug use doesn’t become a problem. Please don’t blindly defer to the "experts". Use your own good judgment and instincts. You sound like a good mom! Allan BTW: I totally relate to the angst you mentioned. I was troubled myself with it a lot in the past – it’s absolutely horrible!

Response:

Tanya, You know what? If you disagree with what I’m doing, I’m willing to listen,

i never said i agreed or disagreed with your position or what you are doing, i offered a perspective you may not be aware of. but the presentation lacks a bit of caring, don’t you think?

i consider my presentation of minute importance as opposed to the issue and getting my point across. i’ve never been much of a sugar coater. i’m result oriented. i don’t care how i’m perceived if i can bring to light information that may be valuable to anyone that may not be in hip-boots trampling in the arena in question as i am. I’m pretty sure she’s messing around with esctacy. Not just some "harmless" pot smoking.

even weed, the formerly assumed "safe" drug, peace, love, etc., is not safe from lacing to strengthen the product. it’s no longer a social function, smokin’ a joint, it’s now about tha bills… trust me, and there is no integrity on the street when it comes to dollars and cents anymore. the effects of their actions to improve their financial status takes a back seat to the health of the indulger. So should I just sit back and let her fuck up her brain completely?

absolutely not. i was simply being straight up with regarding issues i suspect you are not, as most aren’t in my world… privvy to. my choice of industries and community in which i perform my procedures is not conducive to sensibilities of most. there are many that are afraid, fearful, to enter my establishment by mere virtue of the criminal activity, the consequentual unsafe environment they will be exposed to. some don’t enjoy the body art they would normally, with us. there are other shops in suburban/more desirable areas they can patronize. even if they would prefer an artist in my shop, their safety is the larger issue. i resented the arena i was subjected to in order to have the type of shop, clientle i preferred long ago, then i realized it was my choice and it was my choice for a reason. i now consider myself fortunate to be able to cohabitate, basically, with these kids, their parents, (if the parent is even known to the child, by some stroke of luck both parents, even) the methods to their madness. i deal with many many kids and their parents and the kids give me, donate me, and respond to me with a wealth of information. i am not their parent, i am not a cop, i am not a threat, they trust me, they open up to me. i KNOW they solicit kids in more fortunate (by societal standards) into their web, it’s a source of pride for them. i am opening a forum for these kids, a circle of businesses that will infiltrate these kid’s lives in hopefully monumental ways. i am using my experience, knowledge, pain, suffering, viewed suffering, to benefit the children that i now know are aware of a better way, they just have no clue what it looks like, feels like, how to get it, they are not bad kids. unfortunately, they are predators of your kids. they are living in survival mode. they’re raising themselves. it may take a village to raise a child, the village has to first be raised. it’s my goal to participate in this task, to create a systematic plan that we are capable of persuing, ultimately accomplishing, when united. so obviously, i am in no way against you i merely make a point with no elan’, flair, or consideration of anything but my goal, perhaps i should be more tactful. (lord, now i’m scarin’ me !!) this life, from whence i speak with ghastly knowledge is an arena i am almost positive you are fortunate to never need to bear witness to. after 16 years and many many ’signs of the times’ passing before my eyes, i have a knack for knowing my surroundings, getting information, and using the information for serious purposes,this being one, purposes i do not consider betrayal of anyone’s valued trust. my reference to your lifestyle was less than subtle, it was meant to be impactful. things ain’t like they were when you’n me were kids, trust me. just as i assume every single person that enters my shops are HIV positive, i also assume that nobody has information that i have due to my logistic positioning. the nature of my business attracts the stigmatized patron. i assume this just as i would hope you would assume the same if i was in a similar position as you find yourself, utilizing the ability to share information that may not be available on my side of the fence. i would hope you would do it with directness, impact, and whatever presentation you deemed effective, and be DAMNED how it landed on me. Last thing I need right now is to read some sacrastic rant.

it wasn’t meant as sarcasm, i apologize that is how it was perceived. there are many detoxing systems available today at these kid’s fingertips. the drug store, internet, friends, etc. that will scam a blood, urine or even hair folicle test, some with immediate results. some are 6-14 days results. even with the longer time frame, if ingested every 6-14 days, the detoxified condition will remain intact. quite frankly, i would highly recommend you look into some of these products, i’m sending you a link to only one, a 6-12 day guaranteed detox program, http://www.how-to-pass-a-drug-test.net/ ,there are many. that said, and i will say this as gently as possible…. you MAY have one chance and one chance only to accomplish what you are striving to accomplish. these kids can work miracles once you know they’re onto them, they are in no way "naive". i am in no way insinuating your child is capable of this behavior or has access to these products. i am ASSUMING she is, as it’s better to assume the worse case scenario than to presume innocence that results in a tragedy. my point, tho crass, is pick this battle methodically and wisely, it may be your only opportunity. if misappropriated, it COULD lead to colusion with others she may not be associating with now, but referred to by others as a means to continue her behavior if, in fact, you are correct. please know that i am in no way being anything but blunt, not at all accusatory. again, i apologize for my presentation. it’s a deadly issue. sometimes a ‘one chance and one chance only’ opportunity to discern the options and make choices of how you handle this forum,(believe me, these kids are more shrewd than you and i ever had to be or probably could be.) i am not saying "your child" is of this mindset. i’m saying i ALWAYS consider the possibility as opposed to the improbability to be universal. thus, in my world, there is no room for error, no one will be left out of the mix simply because they are considered "beyond certain behavior." it’s better to assume the behavior and be wrong that to overlook it and be sorry. treating oneself gently in its early stages is very comfy, snug as a "down" pillow. only when it hardens does it become unbearable. again, good luck. ~tanya

Response:

Tanya, You know what? If you disagree with what I’m doing, I’m willing to listen, but the presentation lacks a bit of caring, don’t you think? I’m pretty sure she’s messing around with esctacy. Not just some "harmless" pot smoking. So should I just sit back and let her fuck up her brain completely? Last thing I need right now is to read some sacrastic rant.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, It’s been a challenging week (read hellish). My husband and I are slowly swallowing the truth, which is that my daughter is involved in drugs way more than we may have thought. ‘ Mick and I saw a counselor to discuss our parenting options and strategies. Kathy, most/all kids try drugs, it’s part of life. I did, we did, most all my friends….well… ALL my friends did, and of course my parents freaked about it. of course that’s the major contributory factor in my continuence of this behavior on up inta my 20’s, and yanno what? if they’d have stayed out’ah my fuckin’ business 24/7, out’ah muh grill, stopped chasin’ my ass, cuttin’ tha rope ta get back UP my balcony to my room and let me have my little "teen queen drama", i’d'ah been way closer ta done with that lil phase of muh life from tha jump than my 30th birthday. parents make that shit such’ah big deal it becomes attractive. have you ever considered remembering when you were a teenager and what motivated you? if it’s THAT intriguing, there MUST be sumthin’ too it? (it wasn’t that long ago, i’m sure) and unless i’m wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy off-base and y’all were as skrait-edge as a ’skater dude’… ya KNOW rebellion could’ah been avoided. it’s human nature ta "touch the wet paint". hell, nobody’d ever touch the friggin’ stairs if they didn’t have a sign sayin "WET PAINT…DO NOT TOUCH !" ya really think that you ain’t gonna piss her off to tha point of her sayin "buck you, fuddy. ya fuck wimme, ya stuck wimme’n ya done pissed my ass right off, i’ll show YOU?" well, it would’ah me. i’m only speakin’ from experience, and maybe i was an unusual case. <ahem but it’s maybe an angle to consider. i know i’m gonna catch shit about this post, and watch my "care tracks". i’d be more worried if my kid DIDN’T have tha balls to experience life, cuz i’d be damn frightened he/she wouldn’t ‘grab tha gusto’ and take every twist and turn in life available. how boring. if ya don’t learn ta take tha bull by tha horns as a young adult, juice life, squeeze tha charmin… you’ll NEVER discover shit in life. the road most travelled could possibly become the doom of the uninterested/uninteresting. the path of least resistence has led to many a success story, i’m sure. i can’t think of one at tha moment, ’success without risk’ examples elude me at tha moment. i ain’t sayin doin drugs is right or wrong or if there is a right or wrong. i’m sayin’ "welcome to tha planet, stuff exists, stuff ya ain’t gonna have control over (or the illusion of control as there is no such thing as control) so live’n let live. SOOOOOOOO, she’s a kid… ain’t that the time ta get this crap over’n done with’n move on ta discovering the world and all it has ta offer? (after all, it ain’t gonna kill’er, so it’ll make her stronger,(ain’t that how tha cliche’ goes? and cliche’s’re cliche’s because they’re true, eh?) think she could possibly be less fearful of the gifts of life that parental overprotection or overreaction could thieve from her very soul and damper her lust for life? she may never learn she can take the road less travelled, come to the fork in that road’n take it. she could end up less than exquisitely worldly, possibly even a taker of no risks. (personally, a worse plight is unbeknownst ta me.) The counselor was very good and did not sugar coat things for us. This Wednesday we will take Ann in for an assessment . They give her a urine analysis, and talk to her about her use and also talk to us about what we have seen and been through. Based on this, they develop a program from there. We are not telling her ahead of time, of course not. blind side her. it soooooo builds a firm foundation for a healthy familial relationship, i’d embed pop rocks in yer toilet paper if it was me, or comet in tha sugar bowl. wasn’t nooooooo mo fo gunna leave MY cheese out’n tha wind when i was a kid… ‘yer brain’s stupid, yer body pays, parents or not, ya done went’n dissed me’n earned my contempt.’ (maybe i grew out’ah that) while yer at it, why doncha just put an ad in tha paper that says "I DO NOT TRUST MY DAUGHTER, SHE DESERVES NO FOREWARNING WHEN WE’RE SETTIN’ HER UP TA PROVE SHE AIN’T DOIN SUMTHIN INSTEAD OF SETTIN’ HER UP FOR SUCCESS !!!!" i mean… if yer gonna hoe that road, hoe it LOUD’N PROUD ! take PRIDE in your actions, advertise them. so it should be a scene. if y’all were MY parents… there’d be a SHOW DOWN FROM THA FLO DOWN, AND I DON’T MEAN DOWNTOWN, i would’ah eaten y’all’s lunch and counted the beer bottles and marked every liquor bottle in your house’n filled ‘em with mineral oil, dug every controlled substance out’ah every nook’n cranny in yer perfectly manicured dwelling in "suburbia, USA" and made ‘crafts for tha homeless’ with em. (if there are any) or i’d find SOME way to invade your privacy, i might even mention "MOM BEING RELIEVED THAT DAD DOESN’T HAVE TO WEAR RUBBERS ANYMORE SINCE SHE’S NOW GOING THROUGH MENOPAUSE AND HOW HAPPY SHE IS SHE DOESN’T HAVE TA SWALLOW THAT STUFF TASTES LIKE AND LOOKS LIKE SUMTHIN’ THA CONSISTENCY OF SNOT" at the most fashionable dinner possible amongst your closest friends/associates, AND OF COURSE at tha next church function…but hey. that’s just what i’d'ah done. she may have more dignity. i had none. i didn’t believe in karma back then, i MANUFACTURED it. Whether she cooperates with them remains to be seen. We have to try. …and realistically, what do you hope to accomplish by this lil ‘bamboozlement’? puh-leeeeeeeze don’t gimme tha ole "help, counselling, tuff-love, i’m a martyr" routine, it’s soooooooooo 5 minutes ago. i got 2 schools of thought, please indulge me. 1: she’ll be on drugs and now ya know, ya found out by deception and she’s gonna get ruffer’n tuffer’n inta that scene. 2: she’ll be cleaner’n a whistle, but pissed, betrayed… and DAMN SURE PLAY THA GAME IF SHE’S GONNA BE ACCUSED OF WEARIN’ THA NAME game. 3: she’ll get pregnant just ta get out of the prison systematically created around her and entrapping her. 4: she’ll be tha prom queen’n the next CEO of Maybelline. We don’t know how far down the path she is and the bottom line is we can only do what we can do. We don’t have control over the outcome. BAM ! now THAT was’ah ‘nail on tha head’ hitter, if i ever seen one. CONGRATS ! It’s not like when she was 3 and we could so easliy make her stop things that could hurt her . preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-CISELY ! yer makin’ muh POINT ! aqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ( my kitten typed this (control that cat, gurllllllllll !!! <wink) Needless to say, a panic disorder coupled with depression is less than an asset in this situation. simple suggestion: stop creating the situation. there may not even be one, but there damn sure’s gonna be… yer creatin’ yer destiny, mark my words. The beginning of the week I would wake up at 4 in the morning with terrors: Cold sweat, heart beating fast, sick stomach. Total panic and run away thoughts of doom. I called my doctor and they added Buspar to my regiment of Lexapro and Alprazolam (xanax). and yer piss testin’ HER?!?! (maybe her role model needs a lil tinkle test, herself. ya think them things ya just mentioned ain’t drugs? cuz they got’ah legal dealer’s name on em? PLEASE STOP, YER HURTIN’ ME, I’M GONNA VOMIT NOW IF YOU SAY YOU AIN’T ON DRUGS… …and parents just shake their heads’n go "but she wasn’t raisssssssssssed this way"… THE PROVERBIAL RIVER YER LOOKIN’ FOR’S 2 BLOCKS UP, TAKE A LEFT AT THA LIGHT, and WALK LIKE AN EGYPTIAN ! I think it is helping already. WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL now… if tha shelter’ah mother’s little helper’s yer gig, who’re you ta call tha kettle black ? (looks like ya might have the hereditary "pot" on yer hands there. ya reckon?) We started going to Alanon meetings. I have been to 3 so far. wow… me too, i only got kicked out’ah two tho. (whiners make me mouthy… i know that’s hard ta believe.) I went to AA years ago, so I am a step ahead with knowing the principles. This is the hardest, scariest thing I have ever been through. The support I am getting at meetings is helping. Any support or encouragement you may have will be greatly appreciated folks. Just ideas on how one gets through these crisis times when they suffer from this blasted Panic Disorder. with all due respect to all AA-aholics, these friends of sum "bill" dude simply, IMHO, offer a forum to ‘fall off the wagon’ uhhh.. ‘JUMP’ off it, i mean… and get’ah butt-load’ah attention and applause at future meetings when they get clean/sober AGAIN, while the ones walkin’ tha wheel…… walkin’ tha wheel…. doin tha moment by moment, hourly, daily grind…. and NOT usin’ get not one itty bitty ‘rah rah’ for doin’ so … (well, until it’s their "TURN" to get tha obligatory praise.) personally, i’d go for tha ‘dose’ah "YAYYYYYYY YAYYYYYYYYY’s" in the interim, but then agin, i’m an attention slut. so thanks for keeping your seething to a minimum, we wouldn’t wanna wake tha neighbors, now would we. (actually, i’m on your side, it just may not come across that

Response:

Kathy, most/all kids try drugs, it’s part of life. I did, we did, most all my friends….well… ALL my friends did, and of course my parents freaked about it. of course that’s the major contributory factor in my continuence of this behavior on up inta my 20’s, and yanno what? if they’d have stayed out’ah my fuckin’ business 24/7, out’ah muh grill, stopped chasin’ my ass, cuttin’ tha rope ta get back UP my balcony to my room and let me have my little "teen queen drama", i’d'ah been way closer ta done with that lil phase of muh life from tha jump than my 30th birthday. parents make that shit such’ah big deal it becomes attractive. have you ever considered remembering when you were a teenager and what motivated you? if it’s THAT intriguing, there MUST be sumthin’ too it? (it wasn’t that long ago, i’m sure) and unless i’m wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy off-base and y’all were as skrait-edge as a ’skater dude’… ya KNOW rebellion could’ah been avoided. it’s human nature ta "touch the wet paint". hell, nobody’d ever touch the friggin’ stairs if they didn’t have a sign sayin "WET PAINT…DO NOT TOUCH !" ya really think that you ain’t gonna piss her off to tha point of her sayin "buck you, fuddy. ya fuck wimme, ya stuck wimme’n ya done pissed my ass right off, i’ll show YOU?" well, it would’ah me. i’m only speakin’ from experience, and maybe i was an unusual case. <ahem but it’s maybe an angle to consider. i know i’m gonna catch shit about this post, and watch my "care tracks". i’d be more worried if my kid DIDN’T have tha balls to experience life, cuz i’d be damn frightened he/she wouldn’t ‘grab tha gusto’ and take every twist and turn in life available. how boring. if ya don’t learn ta take tha bull by tha horns as a young adult, juice life, squeeze tha charmin… you’ll NEVER discover shit in life. the road most travelled could possibly become the doom of the uninterested/uninteresting. the path of least resistence has led to many a success story, i’m sure. i can’t think of one at tha moment, ’success without risk’ examples elude me at tha moment. i ain’t sayin doin drugs is right or wrong or if there is a right or wrong. i’m sayin’ "welcome to tha planet, stuff exists, stuff ya ain’t gonna have control over (or the illusion of control as there is no such thing as control) so live’n let live. SOOOOOOOO, she’s a kid… ain’t that the time ta get this crap over’n done with’n move on ta discovering the world and all it has ta offer? (after all, it ain’t gonna kill’er, so it’ll make her stronger,(ain’t that how tha cliche’ goes? and cliche’s’re cliche’s because they’re true, eh?) think she could possibly be less fearful of the gifts of life that parental overprotection or overreaction could thieve from her very soul and damper her lust for life? she may never learn she can take the road less travelled, come to the fork in that road’n take it. she could end up less than exquisitely worldly, possibly even a taker of no risks. (personally, a worse plight is unbeknownst ta me.) The counselor was very good and did not sugar coat things for us. This Wednesday we will take Ann in for an assessment . They give her a urine analysis, and talk to her about her use and also talk to us about what we have seen and been through. Based on this, they develop a program from there. We are not telling her ahead of time,

of course not. blind side her. it soooooo builds a firm foundation for a healthy familial relationship, i’d embed pop rocks in yer toilet paper if it was me, or comet in tha sugar bowl. wasn’t nooooooo mo fo gunna leave MY cheese out’n tha wind when i was a kid… ‘yer brain’s stupid, yer body pays, parents or not, ya done went’n dissed me’n earned my contempt.’ (maybe i grew out’ah that) while yer at it, why doncha just put an ad in tha paper that says "I DO NOT TRUST MY DAUGHTER, SHE DESERVES NO FOREWARNING WHEN WE’RE SETTIN’ HER UP TA PROVE SHE AIN’T DOIN SUMTHIN INSTEAD OF SETTIN’ HER UP FOR SUCCESS !!!!" i mean… if yer gonna hoe that road, hoe it LOUD’N PROUD ! take PRIDE in your actions, advertise them. so it should be a scene.

if y’all were MY parents… there’d be a SHOW DOWN FROM THA FLO DOWN, AND I DON’T MEAN DOWNTOWN, i would’ah eaten y’all’s lunch and counted the beer bottles and marked every liquor bottle in your house’n filled ‘em with mineral oil, dug every controlled substance out’ah every nook’n cranny in yer perfectly manicured dwelling in "suburbia, USA" and made ‘crafts for tha homeless’ with em. (if there are any) or i’d find SOME way to invade your privacy, i might even mention "MOM BEING RELIEVED THAT DAD DOESN’T HAVE TO WEAR RUBBERS ANYMORE SINCE SHE’S NOW GOING THROUGH MENOPAUSE AND HOW HAPPY SHE IS SHE DOESN’T HAVE TA SWALLOW THAT STUFF TASTES LIKE AND LOOKS LIKE SUMTHIN’ THA CONSISTENCY OF SNOT" at the most fashionable dinner possible amongst your closest friends/associates, AND OF COURSE at tha next church function…but hey. that’s just what i’d'ah done. she may have more dignity. i had none. i didn’t believe in karma back then, i MANUFACTURED it. Whether she cooperates with them remains to be seen. We have to try.

…and realistically, what do you hope to accomplish by this lil ‘bamboozlement’? puh-leeeeeeeze don’t gimme tha ole "help, counselling, tuff-love, i’m a martyr" routine, it’s soooooooooo 5 minutes ago. i got 2 schools of thought, please indulge me. 1: she’ll be on drugs and now ya know, ya found out by deception and she’s gonna get ruffer’n tuffer’n inta that scene. 2: she’ll be cleaner’n a whistle, but pissed, betrayed… and DAMN SURE PLAY THA GAME IF SHE’S GONNA BE ACCUSED OF WEARIN’ THA NAME game. 3: she’ll get pregnant just ta get out of the prison systematically created around her and entrapping her. 4: she’ll be tha prom queen’n the next CEO of Maybelline. We don’t know how far down the path she is and the bottom line is we can only do what we can do. We don’t have control over the outcome.

BAM ! now THAT was’ah ‘nail on tha head’ hitter, if i ever seen one. CONGRATS ! It’s not like when she was 3 and we could so easliy make her stop things that could hurt her .

preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-CISELY ! yer makin’ muh POINT ! aqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ( my kitten typed this

(control that cat, gurllllllllll !!! <wink) Needless to say, a panic disorder coupled with depression is less than an asset in this situation.

simple suggestion: stop creating the situation. there may not even be one, but there damn sure’s gonna be… yer creatin’ yer destiny, mark my words. The beginning of the week I would wake up at 4 in the morning with terrors: Cold sweat, heart beating fast, sick stomach. Total panic and run away thoughts of doom. I called my doctor and they added Buspar to my regiment of Lexapro and Alprazolam (xanax).

and yer piss testin’ HER?!?! (maybe her role model needs a lil tinkle test, herself. ya think them things ya just mentioned ain’t drugs? cuz they got’ah legal dealer’s name on em? PLEASE STOP, YER HURTIN’ ME, I’M GONNA VOMIT NOW IF YOU SAY YOU AIN’T ON DRUGS… …and parents just shake their heads’n go "but she wasn’t raisssssssssssed this way"… THE PROVERBIAL RIVER YER LOOKIN’ FOR’S 2 BLOCKS UP, TAKE A LEFT AT THA LIGHT, and WALK LIKE AN EGYPTIAN ! I think it is helping already.

WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL now… if tha shelter’ah mother’s little helper’s yer gig, who’re you ta call tha kettle black ? (looks like ya might have the hereditary "pot" on yer hands there. ya reckon?) We started going to Alanon meetings. I have been to 3 so far.

wow… me too, i only got kicked out’ah two tho. (whiners make me mouthy… i know that’s hard ta believe.) I went to AA years ago, so I am a step ahead with knowing the principles. This is the hardest, scariest thing I have ever been through. The support I am getting at meetings is helping. Any support or encouragement you may have will be greatly appreciated folks. Just ideas on how one gets through these crisis times when they suffer from this blasted Panic Disorder.

with all due respect to all AA-aholics, these friends of sum "bill" dude simply, IMHO, offer a forum to ‘fall off the wagon’ uhhh.. ‘JUMP’ off it, i mean… and get’ah butt-load’ah attention and applause at future meetings when they get clean/sober AGAIN, while the ones walkin’ tha wheel…… walkin’ tha wheel…. doin tha moment by moment, hourly, daily grind…. and NOT usin’ get not one itty bitty ‘rah rah’ for doin’ so … (well, until it’s their "TURN" to get tha obligatory praise.) personally, i’d go for tha ‘dose’ah "YAYYYYYYY YAYYYYYYYYY’s" in the interim, but then agin, i’m an attention slut. so thanks for keeping your seething to a minimum, we wouldn’t wanna wake tha neighbors, now would we. (actually, i’m on your side, it just may not come across that way. but i ain’t responsible for how it lands on ya, just know i aint against ya.) i’m merely offering a different perspective, maybe a way to sans the projection and let life play out. it always does xoxoxoxo ~tanya go’head on. shoot me, the fact that my thoughts could become YOUR reality is scary, huh? ::hugglezzzzzz::

Response:

Hi, Kathy….. It sounds as if you and Mick have all the right plans in place. Have you…. or the therapist….. thought ahead to how you will handle it if she refuses to participate in the tests? I know you hope she can be acquiesced into going along… but if she digs her heels in and refuses to pee in the cup… have you talked about strategies and how you will handle it? I wish I had some words of wisdom to impart that would make things easier… or some advice that would help. I *do* hope things work out well for you… It’s not easy being a parent. Sometimes *tough love* is the only way. But it’s tougher on the parent than on the child, I think. My good positive thoughts go out to you…. and I wish you the best as you work on getting her the help she needs. And you and Mick remember to take care of yourselves, too!! Kind regards… MikeH

Response:

Hi all, It’s been a challenging week (read hellish). My husband and I are slowly swallowing the truth, which is that my daughter is involved in drugs way more than we may have thought. Mick and I saw a counselor to discuss our parenting options and strategies. The counselor was very good and did not sugar coat things for us. This Wednesday we will take Ann in for an assessment . They give her a urine analysis, and talk to her about her use and also talk to us about what we have seen and been through. Based on this, they develop a program from there. We are not telling her ahead of time, so it should be a scene. Whether she cooperates with them remains to be seen. We have to try. We don’t know how far down the path she is and the bottom line is we can only do what we can do. We don’t have control over the outcome. It’s not like when she was 3 and we could so easliy make her stop things that could hurt her . aqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq ( my kitten typed this ) Needless to say, a panic disorder coupled with depression is less than an asset in this situation. The beginning of the week I would wake up at 4 in the morning with terrors: Cold sweat, heart beating fast, sick stomach. Total panic and run away thoughts of doom. I called my doctor and they added Buspar to my regiment of Lexapro and Alprazolam (xanax). I think it is helping already. We started going to Alanon meetings. I have been to 3 so far. I went to AA years ago, so I am a step ahead with knowing the principles. This is the hardest, scariest thing I have ever been through. The support I am getting at meetings is helping. Any support or encouragement you may have will be greatly appreciated folks. Just ideas on how one gets through these crisis times when they suffer from this blasted Panic Disorder. Thanks very much. KathyH

Response:

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Stupid brother on crystal

Question:

snip… If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document." Dr. Kary Mullis, Biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry.

LOL. Yes–there ARE. First, this is an old statement. Mullis has been shown to be wrong about a lot, even regarding his own PCR invention. Indeed, there is no ONE document that shows HIV exists and causes AIDS. There are MYRIAD. Indeed, there is no ONE document to show that influenza causes the flu. It’s a stupid argument without intrinsic value. "Up to today there is actually no single scientifically really convincing evidence for the existence of HIV. Not even once such a retrovirus has been isolated and purified by the methods of classical virology." Dr. Heinz Ludwig S

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Annie whips more Liberal ass…

Question:

With half his brain tied behind his back Posted: October 15, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Ann Coulter

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So What's Up With the GW Bush Promotion of Religion Campaign?

Question:

If it’s not one religious notion GW is trying to get the government to sleep with, it’s another. The latest, in his State of the Union address? Well, religion to solve the supposed drug problem, but of course. The fact that the overwhelming majority of drug users are al- ready religious fails to register in the President’s pre- sumed notion that religion is an overwhelming force for "good" … Belief in God palliates drug use? Religion is good for health? Prayer is good for health? The constant mes- sage there is don’t worry about religion as to whether it’s true or not — leave that up to your learned religious leaders and just comfort yourself by buying into the notion that religion is a social good, no matter the con- sequences of extremist devotion to it, and despite the heavy bias in flawed studies designed to prop up reli- gious faith. And for politicians like GW Bush, they latch on to that religiously-inspired notion, as follows: o they pump up religion as it’s advantageous politically for them to appear as if they’re at the right hand of some perceived all-powerful creator deity thingie, o they schmooze with other monotheistic religion fol- lowers in order to promote the ecumenical lie that all religions are "good / true" and that all worship the "same" God and that "One Nation Under God" applies to "any" God (all Gods), not primarily to the Christian notion of God, and o they promote the religious apologetic that Islamic extremism is *not* based on devout devotion to an all-powerful creator deity thingie called Allah, aka God. GW, you must understand, while politically motivated to act as if he’s God’s chosen leader, is also a victim of childhood brainwashing which most Americans, even in the current day, subject their children to. Another quirk in GW’s State of the Union address was his referring to God as a supporter of freedom. How in the world one would disingenuously attempt to prop up that notion is beyond me, what with the long bloody record of religious totalitarianism, the continued promotion (in many faiths) of notions of immortal torment, and the his- torical intolerance of religious faith leaders and followers clearly standing as testimony against such a stance. In the current day, Islamic theocracies are freedom-de- nied, by definition, and the only reason America remains a nation of freedom and liberty is because our founding fathers had the wisdom to keep the government out of religion (and to keep religion out of government, in large measure if not totally so). However, efforts by legislators in the last few decades, and especially by GW Bush in recent times, have attempted to promote combining God and religion with government activities. Power / control / money are central themes of what’s left of the ancient religious faiths, as well as what politics is, at its very core, all about. How does religion play into the hands of political leaders? First off, ponder the way religious leaders are indoctrin- ated into positions of power. There are many religious leaders who have received a well-rounded liberal education, and are fully aware of the gaps in the foundational religious ideologies, the myths, and the way all of that has been used to manipulate and control people in a manner far removed from logic, rea- son, and respect for open-minded pursuit of verity. Some of those religious leaders use religion as a tool for personal gain, religious perpetuation, and self-serving goals. Most of those religious leaders combine both the negative and positive aspects of religion, genuinely doing what most would perceive as "good" in a substantial part of their efforts. Almost all religious leaders, whether well- intentioned or not, seek to perpetuate the religious organ- ization they belong to as a primary focus of their reason for being. Shifting from the religious leaders who have received a well-rounded liberal education to those who have received a fundamentalist education, large numbers of religious leaders have been steered away from doubt regarding their religious faith, so much so that they gen- uinely believe that following a particular religious faith is the actual personification of an omnipotent omniscient almighty super-being, the ultimate "good", God. For those religious leaders, when you combine the ability to control masses of people with a dogma that is earnestly and devoutly devoted to self-perpetuation (supposedly for the "good" of the people), the risks of over-zealousness and deceit are increased, no matter how well-intentioned the individuals involved were when they began their reli- gious endeavors. Nevertheless, even though we, as a society, can do much better than relying on the ancient myths for guidance, I must in a moment of honesty admit that the good side of religious endeavors are a substantial element in the hearts and minds of a significant number of religious leaders and followers. GW Bush is but one example of how all that religious pro- motion can play out in the lives of children led to believe in such things (a rather embarrassing example, in my view, but opinions differ widely on such matters). The fact that religious devotion results in many adopting a closed-minded stance towards open-minded search for verity stretches credulity when it comes to their desire to be perceived as enlightened and / or well-meaning, when all is said and done. The alternative to religious-based views? Open-minded search for verity and elevation of respect for humankind based on the principle of social gain and the knowledge that this is our one and only *sure* opportunity to maximize the human experience. As such, it behooves us to create an environment whereby the probability for fulfillment and happiness resides not in delusion / deceit / myth / cons / threats, not in the supposed gains from im- mortal wonderlands -or- avoidance of supposed pits of hell, but instead from the definite gains we know we can exper- ience in this, our one and only *certain* opportunity to do so. Another way of looking at it is that humankind can fight and struggle to get as much of the pie as is possible, with the result being that an overwhelming number are miserable and the only ones having a fulfilling existence are the small minority at the top -or- humankind can recognize its nature of fulfillment through satisfying social interactions which respect the rights of all to live in peace, security, and hap- piness, by sharing and caring for one another. I suspect that religion is more directed towards the former principle (with a small minority given the power / control / money, and the rest being forced to conform / follow to merit the leftovers of the pie) than they are the latter, know- ing full well most religionists (and most in the world, at large) are in denial regarding the divisive and inequitable nature of religious faith and society. It never ceases to amaze me how folks (religious and non- religious) can be so comfortable with the notion that person A can have millions of times more (power / control / money) than person B, and even while person B is dying from lack of food or clothing or medicine or shelter, the typical re- sponse is to blame person B for it, as if person B is merely an infinitesimally minute entity in this life compared to per- son A. The insanity and unjust nature of such an approach defies logic and reason, and can only be bought into by using the same technique of denial, delusion, and apologetics that religious faiths are built upon. But, for the religious, they then follow justifying inequity with stuff like "we’re all equal in the eyes of God", claiming that person B will do just fine in an afterlife if they only believe in the right God in the right way, perceiving this life as a mere way station on to the grand eternal payoff. Now, they may implore person A to help person B, they may try to guilt-trip person A, but by no means will they actually attempt to change the corrupt system which created the in- equity in the first place. Why? The system (religious and political) is corrupt, and is geared to have the power / money / control in the hands of a small minority, with everyone else struggling over the scraps, beholden to the rich and powerful for without their blessing, the rest are f****d, if you know what I mean. How does all this differ from the days of feudalism, totalitar- ianism, empire? Amazingly, very little, for still, like then, the system (religious and political) is at its very core designed to place as much power / money / control as possible into the hands of as few as possible. Is there an opportunity, in a democracy, for the corrupt sys- tem to be changed, for more equity, fairness, and respect for verity to rise to the fore? Well, that begs the question of how would a political group go about reaching the heights of power and convince a majority that the ways of the past can be altered for the betterment of the many . . . . . . and, for that, I have no answer but to say that yes, it’s pos- sible, but living within a system designed to perpetuate the way things are and have always been, I suspect that changes will come more as a result of technological advances than they will from utilizing the traditional avenues of access to political power, for it’s in those traditional avenues that the temptations for corruption exist. It’s difficult to become part of a corrupt system without becoming corrupt your own self. The old adage, absolute power corrupts absolutely may be trite and lacking somewhat in pithiness, but put another way, the odds of being corruption-free are dramatically reduced when one utilizes traditional paths to power. We’ve seen it time and time again throughout history, no matter how noble and well-intentioned a groups’ goals were at the start, once placed in power, the means to that power were so corrupting that the leaders themselves became corrupt. Notable … read more »

Response:

I don’t hear either the politicians complaining or the American public. The fact is, the American GOVERNMENT agencies set up to help us in the field who have need, aren’t functioning. All the money for us goes to run those government offices. Prez Bush didn’t say, "fund Christian organizations". He said fund "faith=based" organizations that are WORKING and getting the job done as the government seems unable to do. He is NOT advocating funding private Muslim or Buddhist or Catholic or Baptist agencies that DON’T get the job done. He’s saying, as his father before him, that the gov’t just can’t seem to get it done. Scum bag Clinton rejected faith-based organizations because too much money would have actually gotten to the people it was aimed at. Can’t have that! The Dems want to vote the appropriations, then steal the money. If it goes to the government agencies, that’s EXACLTY what happens. Two week all expenses paid vacations to Jamaica, with limo service, etc. $50,000 splurges that could have fed people. Bush said, "Give it to the charities of those faith based organizations who will get the job done." The faith-based agencies have no motivation for stealing the money, but believe they’d be watched under a microscope, something that does NOT happen in government at ANY level. To audit agency X after 10 years of operation and find $5 Mil missing is a little too late to help the folks the money was aimed at. And since this is the first time the Republicans have picked up seats in an off year election in 50 years, we may get it passed this time." Belief in God palliates drug use?

Yes. I happen to have been homeless for 1 1′/2 half years from 1999 to 2000. In that time, I ended up in half-a-dozen shelters because there was no place else to go. I found myself in lockdown for weeks at a time, because that was a drug program, and everyone was treated the same. So I’ve been through several drug rehab programs, including one run by a pentecostal psychopath whose only purpose was to abuse the homless and relieve them of any property that they had. I was in "drug rehab" simply because there was simply no place else to go. So I’ve seen the positive effect of drug rehab, and the last program I was in for 6 months was at Seattle’s Union Gospel Mission. I met roughly 50 guys who attributed their sobriety to the Mission’s "no drugs/no booze" policy. I saw more than one of my "buddies" caught with dope or caught drunk, and they all "lost their beds". But the majority were in it for the long haul, and 2 years after I got out of that mission, I go by there today and the men who are serious about being sober and clean are still there, keeping themselves clean. Don’t fix what ain’t broke! Religion is good for health?

Belief is good for health. Correct. You apparently haven’t listened to the news. Do a simple search on "religion and health" or similar combinations. You’d be amazed at what you’ll find. The basic concept is that if we believe in a God who requires us to behave, we’ll behave. Both the Christian God and the Muslim god demand sobriety. Christianity doesn’t demand being a teetotaler, but it demands responsible drinking. Look at the Acts church (Jerusalem) Like it or not, "religion" works. Prayer is good for health? Yes. AGAIN, check the media. That’s been WELL established. IF we have a God to believe in upon whom we can unburden ourselves, seek spiritual cleansing (confession, repentance, cleansing), those are emotionally VITAL to many of us. And if you are happier mentally, your body will follow. The constant mes-sage there is don’t worry about religion as to whether it’s true or not — leave that up to your learned religious leaders and just comfort yourself by buying into the notion that religion is a social good,

I’ve never heard that POV. I suppose you are getting this stuff from another non-believer. How objective! no matter the con- sequences of extremist devotion to it, The extremists who hurt others will pay before God. But if you’re a sports fanatic, is that better than being a fanatic for God? Which has more value? A game, or God’s supernatural healing power in your life, something MANY Christians have experienced? and despite the heavy bias in flawed studies designed to prop up reli- gious faith.

Such as? I can prove the Bible easily to anyone with an open mind. There are INTERNAL evidences, such as the overall consistency between the various books of the Bible, and the EXTERNAL consistencies, such as the mention of Pilate, who history says lived in that time, and the references to Caesar, who ALSO lived in that time. Among the INTERNAL consistencies are that the temple the Bible mentions as in rubble is there for all to see. 6 of the 7 churches Paul built (the epistles) are still there, I’ve been to one. The cornerstone bears a 1st C AD date. I believe it was 73 AD. We know even today where both Bethlehems are, and another internal evidence is that God even told us which Bethlehem His Son would be born in. How would the prophet know that TINY town would be the Savior’s birth place? YOu don’t believe there is evidence for Christianity because, in your seml-imposed arrogance, you have assumed there’s nothing there, and you’ve not bothered to educate yourself. But those of who HAVE walked the apostles footsteps, as I have, come away knowing that the Bible isn’t just a "bunch of stories." And for politicians like GW Bush, they latch on to that religiously-inspired notion, as follows: o they pump up religion as it’s advantageous politically for them to appear as if they’re at the right hand of some perceived all-powerful creator deity thingie,

Watch not what he says, watch what he does. And I’ve only seen a couple of things so far that displeased me as a Christian. Being a DC native, and having worked with the government for several years before being drafted, I predict Bush will get more positive done than did his predecessor, whose first act as President was to legalize infanticide in America, the first nation to do so. Bush is even now working with congress to repeal that disgusting law. o they schmooze with other monotheistic religion fol- lowers in order to promote the ecumenical lie that all religions are "good / true" and that all worship the "same" God and that "One Nation Under God" applies to "any" God (all Gods), not primarily to the Christian notion of God,

For political purposes, why not? "Don’t judge a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins." and o they promote the religious apologetic that Islamic extremism is *not* based on devout devotion to an all-powerful creator deity thingie called Allah, aka God.

Bush and the rest of the world have pointed that out. However, Bush can’t change the world. He CAN make it a better place, but it’ll take more than just the Christians to do that. GW, you must understand, while politically motivated to act as if he’s God’s chosen leader, is also a victim of childhood brainwashing which most Americans, even in the current day, subject their children to. Another quirk in GW’s State of the Union address was his referring to God as a supporter of freedom. How in the world one would disingenuously attempt to prop up that notion is beyond me,

Jesus said, "I have come to set the captives free." Even Dr Martin Luther pronounced, upon discovering Salvation by Grace, uttered, "Christ came to set us free! We are FREE in Christ.) That makes Freedom a God-given right. For ALL people. It might help, before you criticize Christians, that you knew something about us. what with the long bloody record of religious totalitarianism, by whom? Short version, are you merely condemning all faiths? the continued promotion (in many faiths) of notions of immortal torment, and the his- torical intolerance of religious faith leaders and followers clearly standing as testimony against such a stance. We only warn people that the Bible makes it clear, "for the wages of sin are death, but the FREE gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." Just exactly what part of eternal life are you objecting to? In the current day, Islamic theocracies are freedom-de- nied, by definition,

This is why we of the Faith call the faith of Islam phony because those leaders deny even the most basic freedoms to the people they rule. In the Islamic faith, for instance, women are still property, and they are still beaten whenever any man chooses to beat them. I still see burkas in Seattle, including one worn by a resident of my building. Whether they admit it or don’t just watch the men lord the women and you realize the women are HATED. They are baby factories and pleasure machines. Period. and the only reason America remains a nation of freedom and liberty is because our founding fathers had the wisdom to keep the government out of religion (and to keep religion out of government, in large measure if not totally so).

Not so. In this life, there is no place in the Bible that demand theocracy. God will establish His kingdom on earth. NO man is qualified. And the"separation of church and state" is a phrase found NOwhere in the BOR or the Constitution. If it were as you suggest, no Christian would be allowed, by law, to serve in any capacity in the government. Yet every president since RR has been a person who claimed to be a Christian, tho I have SERIOUS doubts about BC, since he … read more »

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Too long The question the world is asking is "what on earth is up with Bush?" If he were our president we’d sack him

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Category Categories: Rehab Programs | No Comments »

DID and Social Security?

Question:

Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R.

Response:

Hi everyone:

Hi, I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you.

Welcome to the group! Of course we are open to people who are singleton posting, as well as people with ddnos, and any of the other dissociative type issues as well. Or people who are just supportive of this group in general in fact. Heck, as far as I’m concerned just about anyone who is nice can post here cause that means there is more for me to read *huge grin* I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID.

I’d suggest going at it from a different angle. Try getting ssd for _other_ reasons. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who dissociate and seek assistance from a t’pist do so for more reasons than simply ‘I am multiple’. Being multiple isn’t in and of itself really a problem. It’s all the other stuff that goes along with it that cause the problem! So, look at the concurrent diagnoses and see which of those can be considered a long term or disabling disability. PTSD is one obvious one. The various physical type issues many abuse survivors suffer might also work. Obviously, don’t lie but just use _other_ issues your client has to get assistance. For example, at the ‘height’ of my problems I could have easily qualified for disability based on my phobias and anxiety. I wouldn’t have even had to mention the multiplicity. As for the person processing your claim believing in multiplicity or not, I’m sure a good lawyer could help with this one. If it’s in the DSM and is a legit. diagnosis the idea of believability is irrelevant. But that would mean getting a lawyer involved… I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you?

I only dealt with this once with a client and I went after it using one of her other labels. She easily qualified because of her physical problems that were clearly and issue, regardless of any of her other problems. She wasn’t multiple but did have a problem with dissociation. We never mentioned it in the disability paperwork. Rainbow Colors (Jill) Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R.

– The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.

Response:

Thanks for your lengthy answer, Melissa. I have already detailed the way that DID affects the ability to function in this person in our initial claim, but I guess I will just have to continue insisting on it… and hoping that the person that reviews the case this time is a different one than the time before! Like you say, the most important thing is how the person is able to function, not the multiplicity itself. I will keep on insisting! Thanks for the encouragement! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think, as you’ve already surmised, that unfortunately it will depend on the individual examiner for your area. There’s a human being that reviews the forms and decides whether or not the criteria is met for disability, and *that’s* the person who really has the power. Be sure to be very clear about how the DID and other problems affect functioning on a daily basis. They don’t have to believe that the person is multiple. That’s irrelevant. What’s important is that they understand that this person is unable to function. Describe the symptoms. People here will often talk about how being multiple isn’t neccesarily a "disorder". It’s only a problem if it’s preventing you from functioning properly. If you’re functioning ok, then the mulitiplicity itself isn’t a problem and doesn’t need to be "fixed" just for the sake of being "single". In the same way, I’d think that whether or not someone is multiple will not be the deciding factor in getting SSD. Their inability to function is what will be more significant. Describe what this person’s life is like. What is this person not able to do? Why can’t they go to a 9-5 job every day? It’s not *just* because they’re multiple. However, there might be aspects of that multiplicity that are interfering like blackouts, memory loss, losing time, irratic behaviour, or dissociation. Or maybe there are concurrent problems with chronic depression or anxiety or PTSD that make it impossible to function in a work environment, or to even leave the house sometmes. Maybe it’s the unpredictablity that makes it impossible to keep a job. I think (and I don’t know for sure) it’s most important to paint a clear picture of what life is like for this person first and foremost, make sure they understand this person’s disabilities, and *then* support it with diagnosis. Someone on an agoraphobia newsgroup once said that they were denied benefits for their agoraphobia until they said something along the lines of (and I’m paraphrasing) "I am housebound. I am unable to walk outside. Although I have two legs, because of my agoraphobia, I can no more make those legs move to take me out of the house than a parapalegic." -He put it much better than that but you get the idea. There are people who get SSD with a DID diagnosis, though I’m not certain if it’s based soley on that or on additional concurrent diagnosis. Best of luck, Melissa Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R. "X-No-Archive: yes" is automatically included in the headers of all of my posts. (you may not see it if your preferences aren’t set to "show all headers" but it’s there!) Please write X-No-Archive: yes as the first line of any post replying to one of my posts. Thank You.

Response:

Hi,

Hi again! Welcome to the group! Of course we are open to people who are singleton posting, as well as people with ddnos, and any of the other dissociative type issues as well. Or people who are just supportive of this group in general in fact. Heck, as far as I’m concerned just about anyone who is nice can post here cause that means there is more for me to read *huge grin*

Thanks so much for the warm welcoming! I have been reading the posts for a while and I have to say I have learned quite a bit about DID and other forms of dissociation from all you guys, for which I thank every single one of you. Like I said in my first post, i work as a case manager and psytherpst, and have developed over time a big interest in DID, reading everything that falls into my hands about it. There is not much training about this subject in my area, but I finally managed to get into the training for psychotherapists offered by ISSD, which I am extremely happy about. My client is aware that I do not have experience with DID, so so far we’re basically working on case management issues and developing a trusting relationship, which is the first and most important step of all if we ever want to work together from a different level. Sadly enough, I have not found anyone in my area willing with experience in DID that would take my client and his medical coupons. I’d suggest going at it from a different angle. Try getting ssd for _other_ reasons. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who dissociate and seek assistance from a t’pist do so for more reasons than simply ‘I am multiple’. Being multiple isn’t in and of itself really a problem. It’s all the other stuff that goes along with it that cause the problem! So, look at the concurrent diagnoses and see which of those can be considered a long term or disabling disability. PTSD is one obvious one. The various physical type issues many abuse survivors suffer might also work. Obviously, don’t lie but just use _other_ issues your client has to get assistance.

Thanks for your suggestions. Like I’ve said before in other postings, I will keep on insisting and using every little bit of information that we have about concurrent disorders and specific reasons about why his functionality is limited. As for the person processing your claim believing in multiplicity or not, I’m sure a good lawyer could help with this one. If it’s in the DSM and is a legit. diagnosis the idea of believability is irrelevant. But that would mean getting a lawyer involved…

Yup, a lawyer… no way we could afford this at this point. But we’ll see what we can do without one! : ) The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.

I l*ve your signature : ) Thanks again for everything.

Response:

Thanks so much for our story as well, Stormy. It’s so great to hear all of your responses, they give me encouragement and let me know that my client is not alone out there and that we have a chance to win this, against the great old administrative system. I wish he had Internet access and could reach out to this group, which I find very supportive and special.

Have you suggested he look into using a library or other public access internet connection? I don’t know how they work as I have never used them but I know they exist. It’s certainly better than nothing. Rainbow Colors (Jill) — The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.

Response:

Thanks for your story, jt. Just knowing that you tried 5 times before getting it at least makes me want to continue trying, even if it’s 10 or 20 times!! : ) For financial reasons, it might not be possible to get an attorney to represent him, and I will have to do the job, which I don’t mind at all, though judges and annoying attorneys do have the potential of making me somewhat nervous. : ) Thanks again for your story and for the encouragement! MR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – heh – yeah, what she said. fwiw, i got disability for a closed amt of time (cuz i started working b4 the case was decided. so they decided that prior to me taking the med that made it possible for me to go back to work, i couldn’t work. adderall is a wonderful thing.) without multiplicity entering into the equation at all, since this was before i figured it out. essentially, my lawyer identified a trigger while talking to me beforehand. when i was calm, cool, and collected in front of the judge – instead of bawling like a baby like i’d been when talking to him b4 – he asked a question intended to trigger me again, and succeeded. so here’s calm, cool, collected me, answering questions, then my lawyer asks a question, and in abt 3 heartbeats i’m bawling and babbling on about how being smart and doing well in school doesn’t mean that i could function normally over an extended amount of time, how each semester got worse, how it was harder and harder to get myself to class on time, to get papers written, etc., etc., and how my house was a filthy mess, and how humiliating and frustrating and shameful it was to not be *able* to clean, etc, and, and, and….. ….and that judge was an ashowl who hadn’t read a darned thing in my file, and he denied my case and made me feel like every single bad thing that had ever happened to me in my life was my fault, and that i deserved it, and how dare i ask someone to give me money for being a lazy, good for nothing. not that he said that. it’s just how he made me feel. he didn’t believe me. a year or so later, my lawyer and i went back to a different judge, who talked with the lawyer for abt 3 minutes, making it clear what time frame we were talking abt getting disability for, then the judge asked me if i’d understood what’d been said. i said yes. he said "based on these letters (from my shrinks), and the client’s own testimony at the previous trial, i’ll approve this motion." and that was it. *boom* and i get $6000, after paying back welfare and my lawyer’s fees. every once in awhile, something happens that restores just a piece of my faith in humanity. eh – am prolly not helping at all..just rambling cuz the discussion reminded me of it. basically, my suggestion is just to keep trying. i got denied, dunno, 5 times? before getting the acceptance thingy. heh – the lawyer worked for welfare, so he had sufficient motivation to keep trying til he got *something* for me. :) keep caring. :) your client’s lucky to have a CM who’s willing to do so much to help hir. jt message t… I think, as you’ve already surmised, that unfortunately it will depend on the individual examiner for your area. There’s a human being that reviews the forms and decides whether or not the criteria is met for disability, and *that’s* the person who really has the power. Be sure to be very clear about how the DID and other problems affect functioning on a daily basis. They don’t have to believe that the person is multiple. That’s irrelevant. What’s important is that they understand that this person is unable to function. Describe the symptoms. People here will often talk about how being multiple isn’t neccesarily a "disorder". It’s only a problem if it’s preventing you from functioning properly. If you’re functioning ok, then the mulitiplicity itself isn’t a problem and doesn’t need to be "fixed" just for the sake of being "single". In the same way, I’d think that whether or not someone is multiple will not be the deciding factor in getting SSD. Their inability to function is what will be more significant. Describe what this person’s life is like. What is this person not able to do? Why can’t they go to a 9-5 job every day? It’s not *just* because they’re multiple. However, there might be aspects of that multiplicity that are interfering like blackouts, memory loss, losing time, irratic behaviour, or dissociation. Or maybe there are concurrent problems with chronic depression or anxiety or PTSD that make it impossible to function in a work environment, or to even leave the house sometmes. Maybe it’s the unpredictablity that makes it impossible to keep a job. I think (and I don’t know for sure) it’s most important to paint a clear picture of what life is like for this person first and foremost, make sure they understand this person’s disabilities, and *then* support it with diagnosis. Someone on an agoraphobia newsgroup once said that they were denied benefits for their agoraphobia until they said something along the lines of (and I’m paraphrasing) "I am housebound. I am unable to walk outside. Although I have two legs, because of my agoraphobia, I can no more make those legs move to take me out of the house than a parapalegic." -He put it much better than that but you get the idea. There are people who get SSD with a DID diagnosis, though I’m not certain if it’s based soley on that or on additional concurrent diagnosis. Best of luck, Melissa Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R. "X-No-Archive: yes" is automatically included in the headers of all of my posts. (you may not see it if your preferences aren’t set to "show all headers" but it’s there!) Please write X-No-Archive: yes as the first line of any post replying to one of my posts. Thank You.

Response:

Thanks Itchy. Our psychiatrist hasn’t diagnosed this person with bipolar, but we do have the PTSD one though. Like I said before, I will keep on insisting… And thanks so much for your response as well – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your best bet is if the person can legitimately be dx’ed bipolar as Axis 1. Then you can add other dx after that. Bipolar is a "mental illness" and you can get disability for it. Ranked in order, for me, is bipolar, ptsd, did. 14

Response:

heh – yeah, what she said. fwiw, i got disability for a closed amt of time (cuz i started working b4 the case was decided. so they decided that prior to me taking the med that made it possible for me to go back to work, i couldn’t work. adderall is a wonderful thing.) without multiplicity entering into the equation at all, since this was before i figured it out. essentially, my lawyer identified a trigger while talking to me beforehand. when i was calm, cool, and collected in front of the judge – instead of bawling like a baby like i’d been when talking to him b4 – he asked a question intended to trigger me again, and succeeded. so here’s calm, cool, collected me, answering questions, then my lawyer asks a question, and in abt 3 heartbeats i’m bawling and babbling on about how being smart and doing well in school doesn’t mean that i could function normally over an extended amount of time, how each semester got worse, how it was harder and harder to get myself to class on time, to get papers written, etc., etc., and how my house was a filthy mess, and how humiliating and frustrating and shameful it was to not be *able* to clean, etc, and, and, and….. ….and that judge was an ashowl who hadn’t read a darned thing in my file, and he denied my case and made me feel like every single bad thing that had ever happened to me in my life was my fault, and that i deserved it, and how dare i ask someone to give me money for being a lazy, good for nothing. not that he said that. it’s just how he made me feel. he didn’t believe me. a year or so later, my lawyer and i went back to a different judge, who talked with the lawyer for abt 3 minutes, making it clear what time frame we were talking abt getting disability for, then the judge asked me if i’d understood what’d been said. i said yes. he said "based on these letters (from my shrinks), and the client’s own testimony at the previous trial, i’ll approve this motion." and that was it. *boom* and i get $6000, after paying back welfare and my lawyer’s fees. every once in awhile, something happens that restores just a piece of my faith in humanity. eh – am prolly not helping at all..just rambling cuz the discussion reminded me of it. basically, my suggestion is just to keep trying. i got denied, dunno, 5 times? before getting the acceptance thingy. heh – the lawyer worked for welfare, so he had sufficient motivation to keep trying til he got *something* for me. :) keep caring. :) your client’s lucky to have a CM who’s willing to do so much to help hir. jt message t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think, as you’ve already surmised, that unfortunately it will depend on the individual examiner for your area. There’s a human being that reviews the forms and decides whether or not the criteria is met for disability, and *that’s* the person who really has the power. Be sure to be very clear about how the DID and other problems affect functioning on a daily basis. They don’t have to believe that the person is multiple. That’s irrelevant. What’s important is that they understand that this person is unable to function. Describe the symptoms. People here will often talk about how being multiple isn’t neccesarily a "disorder". It’s only a problem if it’s preventing you from functioning properly. If you’re functioning ok, then the mulitiplicity itself isn’t a problem and doesn’t need to be "fixed" just for the sake of being "single". In the same way, I’d think that whether or not someone is multiple will not be the deciding factor in getting SSD. Their inability to function is what will be more significant. Describe what this person’s life is like. What is this person not able to do? Why can’t they go to a 9-5 job every day? It’s not *just* because they’re multiple. However, there might be aspects of that multiplicity that are interfering like blackouts, memory loss, losing time, irratic behaviour, or dissociation. Or maybe there are concurrent problems with chronic depression or anxiety or PTSD that make it impossible to function in a work environment, or to even leave the house sometmes. Maybe it’s the unpredictablity that makes it impossible to keep a job. I think (and I don’t know for sure) it’s most important to paint a clear picture of what life is like for this person first and foremost, make sure they understand this person’s disabilities, and *then* support it with diagnosis. Someone on an agoraphobia newsgroup once said that they were denied benefits for their agoraphobia until they said something along the lines of (and I’m paraphrasing) "I am

housebound. I am unable – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to walk outside. Although I have two legs, because of my agoraphobia, I can no more make those legs move to take me out of the house than a parapalegic." -He put it much better than that but you get the idea. There are people who get SSD with a DID diagnosis, though I’m not certain if it’s based soley on that or on additional concurrent diagnosis. Best of luck, Melissa Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R.

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Response:

Your best bet is if the person can legitimately be dx’ed bipolar as Axis 1. Then you can add other dx after that. Bipolar is a "mental illness" and you can get disability for it. Ranked in order, for me, is bipolar, ptsd, did. 14

Response:

Hmmm… that might be a good idea. I’ll look into it, Jill. I think it would be very helpful to him to realize that there are other people out there that share similar experiences, that he is not alone, and that he is definitely NOT a fr*ak! I think that the social stigma that this disorder has had for so long, added to its publicity in the media through various movies portraying people with DID as extremely unusual and rare, have not helped at all. But we’re working toward some sort of acceptance, slowly, but were getting there. Thanks once more – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks so much for our story as well, Stormy. It’s so great to hear all of your responses, they give me encouragement and let me know that my client is not alone out there and that we have a chance to win this, against the great old administrative system. I wish he had Internet access and could reach out to this group, which I find very supportive and special. Have you suggested he look into using a library or other public access internet connection? I don’t know how they work as I have never used them but I know they exist. It’s certainly better than nothing. Rainbow Colors (Jill) — The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.

Response:

Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough in my life time to recieve SSD. But it took a year from beginning to end on that venture :/ Mostly what they were looking at was how we managed day to day with things..cleaning house, taking care of ourself, all kinds of stuff like that. We had to see one of "their" "specialists" before even being considered for SSI. The first guy said no way we were DID. So we had to start the process all over again. The 2nd guy said yeah we were DID. When we went before the judge, our representive before hand told us to do our best to not switch (still confused at that one). The judge didn’t even have any idea what DID/MPD was! We had to explain to him what it was! All the time the host sat there quiet and depressed and only spoke when questioned. When it was time for our hubby to come in (he wasn’t allowed in with the host), we freaked so bad because we thought we had already lost and our 6 year old was afraid to be left alone while he went in, that we ended up switching Sooooo Stacy, the 6 year old went in with hubby. Now let me tell you a bit about her…she’s a talker and will talk the ear off of ya lol she’s rarely upset, unless feeling aba*d*ned. And much like any other 6 yar old..her attention span is quite small. I think she ended up talking to the judge and telling him about D*ddyJim (that’s what she calls hubby) and I gather other stuff. We ended up winning Because of hubby’s pay tho, we get very very little BUT we can chalk one up for the DID folk who are trying to win! The more DID who win…well you know the rest Stormy

Response:

I’m so sorry what you had to go through to get the help, JL (or is that jt?) Like Itchy, my original dx was bipolar. It has been since then that I have been found to be did. I very much like Melissa’s answer. I think that the bureaucrats are probably going to more moved by the ways in which one is unable to function and, try to find other labels to fit those symptoms too. I particularly wanted to add that I also have had enormous trouble achieving the simplest things such as cleaning my home etc. I don’t hear that from others at all so it helped me to feel less alone for you to mention it. Thanks for that. Polly —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – heh – yeah, what she said. fwiw, i got disability for a closed amt of time (cuz i started working b4 the case was decided. so they decided that prior to me taking the med that made it possible for me to go back to work, i couldn’t work. adderall is a wonderful thing.) without multiplicity entering into the equation at all, since this was before i figured it out. essentially, my lawyer identified a trigger while talking to me beforehand. when i was calm, cool, and collected in front of the judge – instead of bawling like a baby like i’d been when talking to him b4 – he asked a question intended to trigger me again, and succeeded. so here’s calm, cool, collected me, answering questions, then my lawyer asks a question, and in abt 3 heartbeats i’m bawling and babbling on about how being smart and doing well in school doesn’t mean that i could function normally over an extended amount of time, how each semester got worse, how it was harder and harder to get myself to class on time, to get papers written, etc., etc., and how my house was a filthy mess, and how humiliating and frustrating and shameful it was to not be *able* to clean, etc, and, and, and….. ….and that judge was an ashowl who hadn’t read a darned thing in my file, and he denied my case and made me feel like every single bad thing that had ever happened to me in my life was my fault, and that i deserved it, and how dare i ask someone to give me money for being a lazy, good for nothing. not that he said that. it’s just how he made me feel. he didn’t believe me. a year or so later, my lawyer and i went back to a different judge, who talked with the lawyer for abt 3 minutes, making it clear what time frame we were talking abt getting disability for, then the judge asked me if i’d understood what’d been said. i said yes. he said "based on these letters (from my shrinks), and the client’s own testimony at the previous trial, i’ll approve this motion." and that was it. *boom* and i get $6000, after paying back welfare and my lawyer’s fees. every once in awhile, something happens that restores just a piece of my faith in humanity. eh – am prolly not helping at all..just rambling cuz the discussion reminded me of it. basically, my suggestion is just to keep trying. i got denied, dunno, 5 times? before getting the acceptance thingy. heh – the lawyer worked for welfare, so he had sufficient motivation to keep trying til he got *something* for me. :) keep caring. :) your client’s lucky to have a CM who’s willing to do so much to help hir. jt

<snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied.

<snipped

Response:

Hi, you sound so very supportive of your client. It is lovely to read! In an earlier post you said that you wished that you could send your client to a therapist experienced in DID who would take "coupons". What country are you in? America? I’m from Australia. We have a few – very few – psychiatrists here who work with DID as well as some psychologists and alternative counsellors. Psychiatrists, because there are medically qualified, are subject to Medicare rebate for clients. If a client will explain their circumstances, a psychiatrist can opt to charge him/her the rebateable fee or something close to that so that the client is out of pocket very little. Often though, the only way to know who is willing to charge the lower fees is to ring and ask ahead of time. As a therapist yourself, I would think that you might have sway in helping to find such a doctor. In Australia, Medicare is the public insurance that covers every citizen. There are also free community health centres, including "centres against sexual assault" which include free counselling sessions for those who dissociate as a result of current or prior sexual assault or abuse. Next, there are free public (government run) psychiatric clinics for those with mental illness of any kind, though how much the individual psychiatrists who work in them are comfortable with did again needs to be queried beforehand. Certainly, they also employ (again for free) psychologists and counsellors who tend to be less constrained by diagnosis and therefore more ready to see a person from the perspective of their day to day *experience*. I’ve tried to cover the gamut of types of therapy available here for people who don’t have the money to see a private therapist. I don’t know if where you are has similar free services. (Just remembered that another place is as an outpatient at a psych department at a large hospital, or even through one of the student-teaching clinics at a university.). Do you, yourself, have support in helping your client? Have you thought of contacting an organization which supports professionals who work in the support and care of those with did? Perhaps the main one of those is in America. It is called "The International Society For The Study Of Dissociation". Their website link is: http://www.issd.org/ And if you enter "dissociation" in any search engine, you will find many other links to support people and groups to help you and your client. Bye the way, you say that your client does not have access to the internet. I understand that to own a computer and use the internet is expensive, but do you have where you are (as we have here, in Australia) the option to use, at no cost, publicly accessible computers in places like libraries (most often) and community centres? Ring the local libraries. Maybe, it needs to be a larger library. Ring local government or council. Ask them where there might be access to a computer for local residents. Then, all your client needs to do is (perhaps with some help from others using the same computer or friends), is to open a free email account with someone like Hotmail or Yahoo and have any correspondence sent to that email address. It is not ideal and problems can arise with connections, but at least it is a start and might build your client’s confidence in both meeting others with did and also in using a computer. I also believe that because a doctor, psych or other kind of therapist is "experienced with DID", does not mean that they are necessarily the right person to work with your client. Knowledge doesn’t automatically equate with compassion, empathy and insight. I’ve met a few therapists in the area of did who are either condescending or out to impress their peers with their knowledge of the *cause* of did at the expense of being real with the client *with* did. Doctors/therapists are human, whatever their knowledge. You already have the first three most important attributes for working with someone with did. If it interests you to work on the last, perhaps you and your client could both benefit from continuing to work together. All the very best to you! Polly —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks so much for our story as well, Stormy. It’s so great to hear all of your responses, they give me encouragement and let me know that my client is not alone out there and that we have a chance to win this, against the great old administrative system. I wish he had Internet access and could reach out to this group, which I find very supportive and special. Thanks again and best wishes to all Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough in my life time to recieve SSD. But it took a year from beginning to end on that venture :/ Mostly what they were looking at was how we managed day to day with things..cleaning house, taking care of ourself, all kinds of stuff like that.

<snipped

Response:

I have treated and met people who are on disability because they have DID and because they meet the SSA’s criteria for disability. Other than an exclusion for substance abuse, I don’t know of any specific diagnosis that causes someone to be rejected for a disability claim (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). The SSA criteria for disability come down to being permanenly unable to engage in work of ANY KIND. This is not an easy criterion to meet or prove. A lot depends on the ability of the evaluator to offer specific behavioral examples of disabled performance in a number of areas. It’s also not unusual for a claim to be denied and then upheld after several levels of appeal, often with the aid of an attorney skilled in this area. It’s certainly possible that some claims examiner might deny benefits out of a bias against DID, but by pursuing proper channels of appeal, other eyes will have a chance to evaluate the claims. (please note: I am not posting this to tell people to come and see me professionally; I have enough business. This post is strictly for informational purposes.) Peter Barach, P.D.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R.

Response:

Dear Stormy and M.R. – Yeah, isn’t that crazy – that because you are unable to work long enough (because of your disability), you aren’t qualified for disability? I can’t get SSI because I am supported by my husb. – who has to work one full time job, one part time job, and numerous fill-ins, such as extra courses and summer courses, etc., in order to keep our household running. I worked for five years – and then after that, sporadically, self-employed, on little projects here and there that I thought I could manage (some of which it turned out I couldn’t – which left me w/a sense of utmost failure). I have started to do a little tiny bit of paid work again – tiny – a few hours a week – and have recently been asked to do two more hours a week – for a whopping eight hours a week, or sometimes more if I am needed more at my karate school where I teach. (The other two hours are a return to being an artist’s model – something I did for twenty years, but haven’t done for fifteen years. It will be interesting – a neutral word which leaves out all the baggage – returning under very different physical conditions on my part.) I am feeling stronger. My days are very cut up, though, partly because of all those little hours, plus my own karate training – and the job of taking my son to school, picking him up, feeding him and making sure his homework and instrument practice get done – getting us *both* to karate. It isn’t so much that there is a lot to do – there *is* a lot to do in my house, but I mostly don’t manage to do it (still working on that – some days are better than others, but I have more bad days than good). So, it isn’t so much that there is a *lot* to do, but that my days are all splintered up, and bounded by responsibility to others (my son, mostly) – so that these days I most often don’t get the day to just curl up in bed and sleep or read, which is what I crave. Unfortunately, for reasons I don’t fully understand (maybe because of just having been ill w/the flu – my whole family was – and not yet fully recovered) I don’t have any interest in anything much at all. I still have an interest in reading, so I know I am still alive and still have at least one attribute I’ve had for most of my life. But I’ve even hit quite a low spot w/karate – wondering if I shouldn’t just give it up: my body hurts, I’m just feeling low about my abilities (limited because of my physical *dis*abilities), even though my instructor now values me more than ever before, and I know he would be devastated if I quit. (That isn’t the reason I am not quitting – I don’t continue out of a sense of obligation to him – though, as long as I am committed to training, there are a lot of things I do simply out of loyalty and because I believe that a student of karate should give in that way to the school and to the head instructor.) I am babbling. Guess I’m kind of lonely – which at least indicates a re-awakening of some kind of interest – the interest in connecting w/people. Even that was gone for a long time – and for me, that’s a really, really odd sign. Well, Monday I am going to my neighbor’s to renew the rinse on my hair – have I said about that? I’ve found a rinse to put on my hair that brings back the color that seems to have faded w/age. It makes me deeply happy – and *no one* has noticed (which is a *good* thing, because it means I have succeeded in enriching the color w/out it looking "dyed"). While I am there I am going to help her plot out a bit of an art course for her son/s, whom she home schools. I am also going to suggest that we do a trade-off – on Monday mornings, they all could come here, and I could do an art lesson w/the boys and she could help me with a bit of the massive job of organizing that needs to be done in my house. She’s wonderful w/stuff like that – and she’s great to be around: we make each other laugh; we confide in each other about everything – I mean *everything* (including what coloring the intimate parts of redheads are); she’s practical and energetic in ways that I am not; and she’s non-judgemental, so that I feel able to let her into my chaos (mental and domestic) w/out feeling ashamed. I have called her in the midst of PTSD attacks (which she does not even have), and she has administered "first aid." I am very lucky. Okay. I’ve talked myself into a better mood. I am lucky, too, to have you all to write to. Take care, everyone – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough in my life time to recieve SSD. But it took a year from beginning to end on that venture :/ Mostly what they were looking at was how we managed day to day with things..cleaning house, taking care of ourself, all kinds of stuff like that. We had to see one of "their" "specialists" before even being considered for SSI. The first guy said no way we were DID. So we had to start the process all over again. The 2nd guy said yeah we were DID. When we went before the judge, our representive before hand told us to do our best to not switch (still confused at that one). The judge didn’t even have any idea what DID/MPD was! We had to explain to him what it was! All the time the host sat there quiet and depressed and only spoke when questioned. When it was time for our hubby to come in (he wasn’t allowed in with the host), we freaked so bad because we thought we had already lost and our 6 year old was afraid to be left alone while he went in, that we ended up switching Sooooo Stacy, the 6 year old went in with hubby. Now let me tell you a bit about her…she’s a talker and will talk the ear off of ya lol she’s rarely upset, unless feeling aba*d*ned. And much like any other 6 yar old..her attention span is quite small. I think she ended up talking to the judge and telling him about D*ddyJim (that’s what she calls hubby) and I gather other stuff. We ended up winning Because of hubby’s pay tho, we get very very little BUT we can chalk one up for the DID folk who are trying to win! The more DID who win…well you know the rest Stormy Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you

Response:

hey Peter, nice to see your name popping up here. i’ve long enjoyed your posts. this is half in response to you and half background for M.R.. I have treated and met people who are on disability because they have DID and because they meet the SSA’s criteria for disability. Other than an exclusion for substance abuse, I don’t know of any specific diagnosis that causes someone to be rejected for a disability claim (someone please correct me if I’m wrong).

i don’t know of any either. obviously an additional diagnosis or two can be helpful. as dissociatives often have ptsd tags on them as well as depression, it’s not uncommon to be able to write a lot on the dx line. The SSA criteria for disability come down to being permanenly unable to engage in work of ANY KIND.

hmmm…. that differs a bit from my experience which was the inability to have or keep "gainful employment." on some days i might have been able to stuff envelopes from my home, but i could not hold down a job, not even daily temp work. granted, their definition of gainful employment is pretty much no work of any kind, and if they can prove that you might be able to be a lunch lady twice a week you’re in trouble. (btw, i have two friends who do lunch lady work, i only use that as an example because the hours are short.) This is not an easy criterion to meet or prove. A lot depends on the ability of the evaluator to offer specific behavioral examples of disabled performance in a number of areas.

yes. documentation of everything from activities of daily living to school reports, work hours, performance changes, sick days, etc., ad. nauseum. they are easpecially interested in hospitalizations and programs. lots of reports from professionals come in handy, as well. It’s also not unusual for a claim to be denied and then upheld after several levels of appeal, often with the aid of an attorney skilled in this area.

here here for that. we were denied and appealed over and over again a number of times when we were going through the process. i was actually scheduled to go before a judge with my case, but when the breif touched his desk he read it and decided that we had been disabled even six months before we had applied (though he could do nothing wrt benefits for that time period). i never even had to go to court. so it wasn’t that my case had no merit, but it was that the default is to deny the claim and appeal a number of times. there are exceptions. in addition to lawyers, who generally take 33% of the claim if the case is successful (and nothing if it’s not) if you have a law school in your area, the students are often takin gup work like this as a part of their education. they do not charge money for this. they do tend to dissappear during breaks, and some of them will only be there for the time they are required to be in such programs, but they are supervised by real lawyers, and i can’t say enough good things about the ones i encountered. i found that mine were much more approachable than regular lawyers. that’s an added bonus. It’s certainly possible that some claims examiner might deny benefits out of a bias against DID, but by pursuing proper channels of appeal, other eyes will have a chance to evaluate the claims.

yes, and they may deny it as well. but you just gotta keep pluggin on. (please note: I am not posting this to tell people to come and see me professionally; I have enough business. This post is strictly for informational purposes.)

*grins* take care of yourself Peter. peace from our pieces, embies – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Barach, P.D. Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R.

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Response:

*whew* welcome back, Beauty. i’ve missed you. Good to hear "your" voice again. :) i had this image yesterday…can’t quite recall exactly what prompted it, but it was of your face "wreathed in smiles" of utter joy and delight. :) It was a nice image. :) I started back to drawing a bit – did a couple of ‘em last week, I think. The sketchbook and pastels sit on a table in my kitchen, with a chair located near it, so in theory all I have to do is plunk down and draw when I’m ready to. I love the idea of you (potentially) being able to trade art lessons for organization, and am *so* glad that you have such a friend near at hand. we seem to be doing better here, too. current meds appear to be helping – though my lungs are achy this morning – and I slept through the night last night (yay!!!). As I’m physically feeling better, I’m noticing how much better I’m feeling otherwise: more stable, more functional…that always panicked state that I was in for so long appears to be in remission for now, and when I *do* get triggered or panicky, it’s so much easier to remember that this is *now*, and that things just aren’t so scary now. Having lived all my life in a flat-out panic, thinking that if I didn’t keep frantically trying to do *more* that I’d end up in dire circumstances, coming out of a flshback to the present didn’t help all that much. But now I *almost* feel foolish for half-a-second for being scared, when there’s nothing to be scared of. I don’t quite get to feeling foolish, because somebody inside reassures me that I’m not before it ever gets that far. It’s astonishing what a difference practicing being kind to yourself makes. It just took me a long time to get to where I felt like I *could* be kind, and not get lambasted from outside sources for not "trying" hard enough. It is enough. jt

running. I worked for five years – and then after that, sporadically,

self-employed, on little projects here and there that I thought I could manage (some of which it turned out I couldn’t – which left me w/a sense of utmost failure). I have started to do a little tiny bit of paid work

again – tiny – a few hours a week – and have recently been asked to do two more hours a week – for a whopping eight hours a week, or sometimes more if I am needed more at my karate school where I teach. (The other two hours are a return to being an artist’s model – something I did for twenty years, but haven’t done for fifteen years. It will be interesting – a neutral word

which leaves out all – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the baggage – returning under very different physical conditions on my part.) I am feeling stronger. My days are very cut up, though, partly because of all those little hours, plus my own karate training – and the job of taking my son to school, picking him up, feeding him and making sure his homework and instrument practice get done – getting us *both* to karate. It isn’t so much that there is a lot to do – there *is* a lot to do in my house, but I mostly don’t manage to do it (still working on that – some days are better than others, but I have more bad days than good). So, it isn’t so much that there is a *lot* to do, but that my days are all splintered up, and bounded by responsibility to others (my son, mostly) – so that these days I most often don’t get the day to just curl up in bed and sleep or read, which is what I crave. Unfortunately, for reasons I don’t fully understand (maybe because of just having been ill w/the flu – my whole family was – and not yet fully recovered) I don’t have any interest in anything much at all. I still have an interest in reading, so I know I am still alive and still have at least one

attribute I’ve had for most of my life. But I’ve even hit quite a low spot w/karate – wondering if I shouldn’t just give it up: my body hurts, I’m just feeling low about my abilities (limited because of my physical *dis*abilities), even though my instructor now values me more than ever before, and I know he would be devastated if I quit. (That isn’t the reason I am not quitting – I don’t continue out of a sense of obligation to him – though, as long as I am

committed to training, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – there are a lot of things I do simply out of loyalty and because I believe that a student of karate should give in that way to the school and to the head instructor.) I am babbling. Guess I’m kind of lonely – which at least indicates a re-awakening of some kind of interest – the interest in connecting w/people. Even that was gone for a long time – and for me, that’s a really, really odd sign. Well, Monday I am going to my neighbor’s to renew the rinse on my hair – have I said about that? I’ve found a rinse to put on my hair that brings back the color that seems to have faded w/age. It makes me deeply happy – and *no one* has noticed (which is a *good* thing, because it means I have succeeded in enriching the color w/out it looking "dyed"). While I am there I am going to help her plot out a bit of an art course for her son/s, whom she home schools. I am also going to suggest that we do a trade-off – on Monday mornings, they all could come here, and I could do an art lesson w/the boys and she could help me with a bit of the massive job of organizing that needs to be done in my house. She’s wonderful w/stuff like that – and she’s great to be around: we make each other laugh; we confide in each other about everything – I mean *everything* (including what coloring the intimate parts of redheads are); she’s practical and energetic in ways that I am not; and she’s non-judgemental, so that I feel able to let her into my chaos (mental and domestic) w/out feeling ashamed. I have called her in the midst of PTSD attacks (which she does not even have), and she has administered "first aid." I am very lucky. Okay. I’ve talked myself into a better mood. I am lucky, too, to have you all to write to. Take care, everyone – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough in my life time to recieve SSD. But it took a year from beginning to end on that venture :/ Mostly what they were looking at was how we managed day to day with things..cleaning house, taking care of ourself, all kinds of stuff like that. We had to see one of "their" "specialists" before even being considered for SSI. The first guy said no way we were DID. So we had to start the process all over again. The 2nd guy said yeah we were DID. When we went before the judge, our representive before hand told us to do our best to not switch (still confused at that one). The judge didn’t even have any idea what DID/MPD was! We had to explain to him what it was! All the time the host sat there quiet and depressed and only spoke when questioned. When it was time for our hubby to come in (he wasn’t allowed in with the host), we freaked so bad because we thought we had already lost and our 6 year old was afraid to be left alone while he went in, that we ended up switching Sooooo Stacy, the 6 year old went in with hubby. Now let me tell you a bit about her…she’s a talker and will talk the ear off of ya lol she’s rarely upset, unless feeling aba*d*ned. And much like any other 6 yar old..her attention span is quite small. I think she ended up talking to the judge and telling him about D*ddyJim (that’s what she calls hubby) and I gather other stuff. We ended up winning Because of hubby’s pay tho, we get very very little BUT we can chalk one up for the DID folk who are trying to win! The more DID who win…well you know the rest Stormy Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you

Response:

Dear Peter, Just to add one little bit of info to this important educational post of yours, well, actually two little bits: 1) Lawyers, particularly the ambulance chasers and those affiliated with legal aid or disability law agencies, will take thes appeal cases on a contingency basis — no payment up front but they get a hefty percentage of the back payments owed to the applicant/beneficiary. Once one is deemed eligible and awarded benefits, that person will receive retroactive awards to the date that sie became disabled. It is from this $$ that the lawyers takes hir chunk. If one and one’s t can figure out how to do it w/out a lawyer then one might end up a little better off financially. 2) One need not be deemed unable to do any work whatsoever. One must be deemed unable to continue doing work in the area(s) for which sie has prior training. To stay out of the ssi training program, on must be deemed unable to do any sort of work whatsoever, otherwise they’ll give you bennies and force you to go to all sorts of vocational rehab programs. However, on both ssi and ssdi, respectively: Social Security Insurance (a tiny, uniform amt. of $$ available to all disabled people in the U.S., regardless of work record), and Social Security Disability Insurance (the same $$ from which comes retirement benefits, available at prorated amts. dependant upon how much one has put in to fica while working, and some strange geometric and algebraic formulations of quarters of years during which one worked), one is permitted to work a certain amount of time or dollars worth and still get bennies. Thanks for posting this info Peter. I’m sure it will be helpful to many people who read here. Also, thanks for posting your professional disclaimers. And in case sarcasm be inferred in this venue of no body language, tone of voice, or facial expression, I assure you I mean none. That you make bot identify yourself as the professional you are and that you state that you are not seeking new clients endears you to me. I’m glad to see you posting again. I have wondered what became of you. trill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have treated and met people who are on disability because they have DID and because they meet the SSA’s criteria for disability. Other than an exclusion for substance abuse, I don’t know of any specific diagnosis that causes someone to be rejected for a disability claim (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). The SSA criteria for disability come down to being permanenly unable to engage in work of ANY KIND. This is not an easy criterion to meet or prove. A lot depends on the ability of the evaluator to offer specific behavioral examples of disabled performance in a number of areas. It’s also not unusual for a claim to be denied and then upheld after several levels of appeal, often with the aid of an attorney skilled in this area. It’s certainly possible that some claims examiner might deny benefits out of a bias against DID, but by pursuing proper channels of appeal, other eyes will have a chance to evaluate the claims. (please note: I am not posting this to tell people to come and see me professionally; I have enough business. This post is strictly for informational purposes.) Peter Barach, P.D. Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R.

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Response:

Okay, M.R. I understand. I am also looking forward to your response. btw: Welcome to asd. trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi trill, This was the last post in line and it’s almost 1 Am, so I think I better get some sleep now, but I will respond to your post tomorrow night! Thanks MR Hello M.R. I appreciate that you come here to learn things to help your client. I wish more mh pros would do the same — listen to the needs of the people they purport to assist as those people express them and prioritize them and to attempt to understand them as those people describe them. I think that your client is lucky. I was deemed eligible for ssi and ssdi on my first application. This happened with a lot of help from my t. He and I gathered documentation from numerous doctors — psychiatrists, neurologists, and practitioners of internal medicine to support my dx of clinical depression w/s**cdl ideation, ptsd, and DID. Narrative observations of my behaviors were included along with MRI and head ct results. Specific reasons were delineated by me and various health care professionals and mh pros as to how my emotinal and psychological difficulties interfered with my work (teaching) on a level that prevented me from doing it or any other type of work. Also, I had spent more than a week in a hsptl for intensive thrpy. My medical records from that hsptlzation were included in the application. So were a battery of psych tests given to me by an army of pros, each concluding the same results, independently of the others. When I read the packet of info that my t gathered together for the app I felt disturbed and upset. I had not considered myself to be quite so sick. Even now, three years later, I only get close to coming to terms with it now and again. But, anyway, this method, the method of massive documentation by numerous parties in different parts of the mental health care profession, worked. I was approved immediately. That means that for 2 years I’ve been struggling to live on $605. per mo. and $135 per mo. in food stamps. But, anyway, I know painfully well that I am in an incapacitated phase of my illness. I only hope that someday I will be able to go back to work. Anyways, good luck and if you want more details from me you can email me privately. trill Hi everyone: I’ve been reading your posts for a while now and I want to say that I’m deeply touched by the caring support that you offer one another. I am glad there is a place like this where people with DID can share their thoughts and not be alone. Thank you. I have a simple question, and if anyone can give me any answers i would really appreciate it. I am a case manager and therapist working at a non-profit social services agency. I have been trying to obtain Social Security Disability benefits for someone that suffers from DID (and other added diagnoses that some of the alters suffer and others don’t.) I am encountering resistance from SSA and the claim has been denied. However, I will keep on working at it. No one in my agency and in fact anyone else I’ve asked has ever tried to do this. I am aware that SSA tends to deny claims and perhaps later grant the benefits after much insisting, but I am not really sure if the people that get to decide these benefits tend to "believe" or not in DID. I am wondering if any of you have ever ran into this situation of applying for SSD and obtaining it, and if so, was it a long process for you? Thank you so much for any comments, if any, in advance. M.R. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

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Response:

i think it was the look on your face when you reflected on the fact that somehow you managed to create and raise a child as wonderful as your son. i like the face/image, because it’s *you*, without the self-doubt, without the insecurity, without the guilt that drags you down. it’s not you without the suffering…there is too much living in the joy on your face. it’s not an "innocent" joy, that "wreathed in smiles" look…it’s… victorious. and stunningly beautiful. it’s the knowing. jt

future/ultimate – ??? Thanks for thinking of us. Glad you are (maybe) drawing again. I haven’t actually proposed the exchange, yet, but I think it will work. We are also

exchanging something else – this is a giggle: we are exchanging (or sharing) our hair-rinse thingie. She’s a redhead, too, who is unhappy w/her

"fading" problem (i.e., – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – going just a bit grey in strands) – so I am purchasing the rinses and she and I do the job at her house (because mine is a mess and hers isn’t, and because she knows how to do it, and so I get mine done and don’t have to worry about doing it myself). So. That is some of my good news. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. *whew* welcome back, Beauty. i’ve missed you. Good to hear "your" voice again. :) i had this image yesterday…can’t quite recall exactly what prompted it, but it was of your face "wreathed in smiles" of utter joy and delight. :) It was a nice image. :) I started back to drawing a bit – did a couple of ‘em last week, I think. The sketchbook and pastels sit on a table in my kitchen, with a chair located near it, so in theory all I have to do is plunk down and draw when I’m ready to. I love the idea of you (potentially) being able to trade art lessons for organization, and am *so* glad that you have such a friend near at hand. we seem to be doing better here, too. current meds appear to be helping – though my lungs are achy this morning – and I slept through the night last night (yay!!!). As I’m physically feeling better, I’m noticing how much better I’m feeling otherwise: more stable, more functional…that always panicked state that I was in for so long appears to be in remission for now, and when I *do* get triggered or panicky, it’s so much easier to remember that this is *now*, and that things just aren’t so scary now. Having lived all my life in a flat-out panic, thinking that if I didn’t keep frantically trying to do *more* that I’d end up in dire circumstances, coming out of a flshback to the present didn’t help all that much. But now I *almost* feel foolish for half-a-second for being scared, when there’s nothing to be scared of. I don’t quite get to feeling foolish, because somebody inside reassures me that I’m not before it ever gets that far. It’s astonishing what a difference practicing being kind to yourself makes. It just took me a long time to get to where I felt like I *could* be kind, and not get lambasted from outside sources for not "trying" hard enough. It is enough. jt message Dear Stormy and M.R. – Yeah, isn’t that crazy – that because you are unable to work long enough (because of your disability), you aren’t qualified for disability? I can’t get SSI because I am supported by my husb. – who has to work one full time job, one part time job, and numerous fill-ins, such as extra courses and summer courses, etc., in order to keep our household running. I worked for five years – and then after that, sporadically, self-employed, on little projects here and there that I thought I could manage (some of which it turned out I couldn’t – which left me w/a sense of utmost failure). I have started to do a little tiny bit of paid work again – tiny – a few hours a week – and have recently been asked to do two more hours a week – for a whopping eight hours a week, or sometimes more if I am needed more at my karate school where I teach. (The other two hours are a return to being an artist’s model – something I did for twenty years, but haven’t done for fifteen years. It will be interesting – a neutral word which leaves out all the baggage – returning under very different physical conditions on my part.) I am feeling stronger. My days are very cut up, though, partly because of all those little hours, plus my own karate training – and the job of taking my son to school, picking him up, feeding him and making sure his homework and instrument practice get done – getting us *both* to karate. It isn’t so much that there is a lot to do – there *is* a lot to do in my house, but I mostly don’t manage to do it (still working on that – some days are better than others, but I have more bad days than good). So, it isn’t so much that there is a *lot* to do, but that my days are all splintered up, and bounded by responsibility to others (my son, mostly) – so that these days I most often don’t get the day to just curl up in bed and sleep or read, which is what I crave. Unfortunately, for reasons I don’t fully understand (maybe because of just having been ill w/the flu – my whole family was – and not yet fully recovered) I don’t have any interest in anything much at all. I still have an interest in reading, so I know I am still alive and still have at least one attribute I’ve had for most of my life. But I’ve even hit quite a low spot w/karate – wondering if I shouldn’t just give it up: my body hurts, I’m just feeling low about my abilities (limited because of my physical *dis*abilities), even though my instructor now values me more than ever before, and I know he would be devastated if I quit. (That isn’t the reason I am not quitting – I don’t continue out of a sense of obligation to him – though, as long as I am committed to training, there are a lot of things I do simply out of loyalty and because I believe that a student of karate should give in that way to the school and to the head instructor.) I am babbling. Guess I’m kind of lonely – which at least indicates a re-awakening of some kind of interest – the interest in connecting w/people. Even that was gone for a long time – and for me, that’s a really, really odd sign. Well, Monday I am going to my neighbor’s to renew the rinse on my hair – have I said about that? I’ve found a rinse to put on my hair that brings back the color that seems to have faded w/age. It makes me deeply happy – and *no one* has noticed (which is a *good* thing, because it means I have succeeded in enriching the color w/out it looking "dyed"). While I am there I am going to help her plot out a bit of an art course for her son/s, whom she home schools. I am also going to suggest that we do a trade-off – on Monday mornings, they all could come here, and I could do an art lesson w/the boys and she could help me with a bit of the massive job of organizing that needs to be done in my house. She’s wonderful w/stuff like that – and she’s great to be around: we make each other laugh; we confide in each other about everything – I mean *everything* (including what coloring the intimate parts of redheads are); she’s practical and energetic in ways that I am not; and she’s non-judgemental, so that I feel able to let her into my chaos (mental and domestic) w/out feeling ashamed. I have called her in the midst of PTSD attacks (which she does not even have), and she has administered "first aid." I am very lucky. Okay. I’ve talked myself into a better mood. I am lucky, too, to have you all to write to. Take care, everyone – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough in my life time to recieve SSD. But it took a year from beginning to end on that venture :/ Mostly what they were looking at was how we managed day to day with things..cleaning house, taking care of ourself, all kinds of stuff like that. We had to see one of "their" "specialists" before even being considered for SSI. The first guy said no way we were DID. So we had to start the process all over again. The 2nd guy said yeah we were DID. When we went before the judge, our representive before hand told us to do our best to not switch (still confused at that one). The judge didn’t even have any idea

Response:

Hi jt – Odd that you would have that image. My sstr had that image once in a certain circumstance. Don’t know what it means. It hasn’t been a great time for me. The image, as it appears in your mind and in hers (when it did) seems to be related to something deeper and/or future/ultimate – ??? Thanks for thinking of us. Glad you are (maybe) drawing again. I haven’t actually proposed the exchange, yet, but I think it will work. We are also exchanging something else – this is a giggle: we are exchanging (or sharing) our hair-rinse thingie. She’s a redhead, too, who is unhappy w/her "fading" problem (i.e., going just a bit grey in strands) – so I am purchasing the rinses and she and I do the job at her house (because mine is a mess and hers isn’t, and because she knows how to do it, and so I get mine done and don’t have to worry about doing it myself). So. That is some of my good news. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *whew* welcome back, Beauty. i’ve missed you. Good to hear "your" voice again. :) i had this image yesterday…can’t quite recall exactly what prompted it, but it was of your face "wreathed in smiles" of utter joy and delight. :) It was a nice image. :) I started back to drawing a bit – did a couple of ‘em last week, I think. The sketchbook and pastels sit on a table in my kitchen, with a chair located near it, so in theory all I have to do is plunk down and draw when I’m ready to. I love the idea of you (potentially) being able to trade art lessons for organization, and am *so* glad that you have such a friend near at hand. we seem to be doing better here, too. current meds appear to be helping – though my lungs are achy this morning – and I slept through the night last night (yay!!!). As I’m physically feeling better, I’m noticing how much better I’m feeling otherwise: more stable, more functional…that always panicked state that I was in for so long appears to be in remission for now, and when I *do* get triggered or panicky, it’s so much easier to remember that this is *now*, and that things just aren’t so scary now. Having lived all my life in a flat-out panic, thinking that if I didn’t keep frantically trying to do *more* that I’d end up in dire circumstances, coming out of a flshback to the present didn’t help all that much. But now I *almost* feel foolish for half-a-second for being scared, when there’s nothing to be scared of. I don’t quite get to feeling foolish, because somebody inside reassures me that I’m not before it ever gets that far. It’s astonishing what a difference practicing being kind to yourself makes. It just took me a long time to get to where I felt like I *could* be kind, and not get lambasted from outside sources for not "trying" hard enough. It is enough. jt Dear Stormy and M.R. – Yeah, isn’t that crazy – that because you are unable to work long enough (because of your disability), you aren’t qualified for disability? I can’t get SSI because I am supported by my husb. – who has to work one full time job, one part time job, and numerous fill-ins, such as extra courses and summer courses, etc., in order to keep our household running. I worked for five years – and then after that, sporadically, self-employed, on little projects here and there that I thought I could manage (some of which it turned out I couldn’t – which left me w/a sense of utmost failure). I have started to do a little tiny bit of paid work again – tiny – a few hours a week – and have recently been asked to do two more hours a week – for a whopping eight hours a week, or sometimes more if I am needed more at my karate school where I teach. (The other two hours are a return to being an artist’s model – something I did for twenty years, but haven’t done for fifteen years. It will be interesting – a neutral word which leaves out all the baggage – returning under very different physical conditions on my part.) I am feeling stronger. My days are very cut up, though, partly because of all those little hours, plus my own karate training – and the job of taking my son to school, picking him up, feeding him and making sure his homework and instrument practice get done – getting us *both* to karate. It isn’t so much that there is a lot to do – there *is* a lot to do in my house, but I mostly don’t manage to do it (still working on that – some days are better than others, but I have more bad days than good). So, it isn’t so much that there is a *lot* to do, but that my days are all splintered up, and bounded by responsibility to others (my son, mostly) – so that these days I most often don’t get the day to just curl up in bed and sleep or read, which is what I crave. Unfortunately, for reasons I don’t fully understand (maybe because of just having been ill w/the flu – my whole family was – and not yet fully recovered) I don’t have any interest in anything much at all. I still have an interest in reading, so I know I am still alive and still have at least one attribute I’ve had for most of my life. But I’ve even hit quite a low spot w/karate – wondering if I shouldn’t just give it up: my body hurts, I’m just feeling low about my abilities (limited because of my physical *dis*abilities), even though my instructor now values me more than ever before, and I know he would be devastated if I quit. (That isn’t the reason I am not quitting – I don’t continue out of a sense of obligation to him – though, as long as I am committed to training, there are a lot of things I do simply out of loyalty and because I believe that a student of karate should give in that way to the school and to the head instructor.) I am babbling. Guess I’m kind of lonely – which at least indicates a re-awakening of some kind of interest – the interest in connecting w/people. Even that was gone for a long time – and for me, that’s a really, really odd sign. Well, Monday I am going to my neighbor’s to renew the rinse on my hair – have I said about that? I’ve found a rinse to put on my hair that brings back the color that seems to have faded w/age. It makes me deeply happy – and *no one* has noticed (which is a *good* thing, because it means I have succeeded in enriching the color w/out it looking "dyed"). While I am there I am going to help her plot out a bit of an art course for her son/s, whom she home schools. I am also going to suggest that we do a trade-off – on Monday mornings, they all could come here, and I could do an art lesson w/the boys and she could help me with a bit of the massive job of organizing that needs to be done in my house. She’s wonderful w/stuff like that – and she’s great to be around: we make each other laugh; we confide in each other about everything – I mean *everything* (including what coloring the intimate parts of redheads are); she’s practical and energetic in ways that I am not; and she’s non-judgemental, so that I feel able to let her into my chaos (mental and domestic) w/out feeling ashamed. I have called her in the midst of PTSD attacks (which she does not even have), and she has administered "first aid." I am very lucky. Okay. I’ve talked myself into a better mood. I am lucky, too, to have you all to write to. Take care, everyone – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough in my life time to recieve SSD. But it took a year from beginning to end on that venture :/ Mostly what they were looking at was how we managed day to day with things..cleaning house, taking care of ourself, all kinds of stuff like that. We had to see one of "their" "specialists" before even being considered for SSI. The first guy said no way we were DID. So we had to start the process all over again. The 2nd guy said yeah we were DID. When we went before the judge, our representive before hand told us to do our best to not switch (still confused at that one). The judge didn’t even have any idea what DID/MPD was! We had to explain to him what it was! All the time the host sat there quiet and depressed and only spoke when questioned. When it was time for our hubby to come in (he wasn’t allowed in with the host), we freaked so bad because we thought we had already lost and our 6 year old was afraid to be left alone while he went in, that we ended up switching Sooooo Stacy, the 6 year old went in with hubby. Now let me tell you a bit about her…she’s a talker and will talk the ear off of ya lol she’s rarely upset, unless feeling aba*d*ned. And much like any other 6 yar old..her attention span is quite small. I think she ended up talking to the judge and telling him about D*ddyJim (that’s what she calls hubby) and I gather other stuff. We ended up winning Because of hubby’s pay tho, we get very very little BUT we can chalk one up for the DID folk who are trying to win! The more DID who win…well

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Thanks. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i think it was the look on your face when you reflected on the fact that somehow you managed to create and raise a child as wonderful as your son. i like the face/image, because it’s *you*, without the self-doubt, without the insecurity, without the guilt that drags you down. it’s not you without the suffering…there is too much living in the joy on your face. it’s not an "innocent" joy, that "wreathed in smiles" look…it’s… victorious. and stunningly beautiful. it’s the knowing. jt Hi jt – Odd that you would have that image. My sstr had that image once in a certain circumstance. Don’t know what it means. It hasn’t been a great time for me. The image, as it appears in your mind and in hers (when it did) seems to be related to something deeper and/or future/ultimate – ??? Thanks for thinking of us. Glad you are (maybe) drawing again. I haven’t actually proposed the exchange, yet, but I think it will work. We are also exchanging something else – this is a giggle: we are exchanging (or sharing) our hair-rinse thingie. She’s a redhead, too, who is unhappy w/her "fading" problem (i.e., going just a bit grey in strands) – so I am purchasing the rinses and she and I do the job at her house (because mine is a mess and hers isn’t, and because she knows how to do it, and so I get mine done and don’t have to worry about doing it myself). So. That is some of my good news. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. *whew* welcome back, Beauty. i’ve missed you. Good to hear "your" voice again. :) i had this image yesterday…can’t quite recall exactly what prompted it, but it was of your face "wreathed in smiles" of utter joy and delight. :) It was a nice image. :) I started back to drawing a bit – did a couple of ‘em last week, I think. The sketchbook and pastels sit on a table in my kitchen, with a chair located near it, so in theory all I have to do is plunk down and draw when I’m ready to. I love the idea of you (potentially) being able to trade art lessons for organization, and am *so* glad that you have such a friend near at hand. we seem to be doing better here, too. current meds appear to be helping – though my lungs are achy this morning – and I slept through the night last night (yay!!!). As I’m physically feeling better, I’m noticing how much better I’m feeling otherwise: more stable, more functional…that always panicked state that I was in for so long appears to be in remission for now, and when I *do* get triggered or panicky, it’s so much easier to remember that this is *now*, and that things just aren’t so scary now. Having lived all my life in a flat-out panic, thinking that if I didn’t keep frantically trying to do *more* that I’d end up in dire circumstances, coming out of a flshback to the present didn’t help all that much. But now I *almost* feel foolish for half-a-second for being scared, when there’s nothing to be scared of. I don’t quite get to feeling foolish, because somebody inside reassures me that I’m not before it ever gets that far. It’s astonishing what a difference practicing being kind to yourself makes. It just took me a long time to get to where I felt like I *could* be kind, and not get lambasted from outside sources for not "trying" hard enough. It is enough. jt message Dear Stormy and M.R. – Yeah, isn’t that crazy – that because you are unable to work long enough (because of your disability), you aren’t qualified for disability? I can’t get SSI because I am supported by my husb. – who has to work one full time job, one part time job, and numerous fill-ins, such as extra courses and summer courses, etc., in order to keep our household running. I worked for five years – and then after that, sporadically, self-employed, on little projects here and there that I thought I could manage (some of which it turned out I couldn’t – which left me w/a sense of utmost failure). I have started to do a little tiny bit of paid work again – tiny – a few hours a week – and have recently been asked to do two more hours a week – for a whopping eight hours a week, or sometimes more if I am needed more at my karate school where I teach. (The other two hours are a return to being an artist’s model – something I did for twenty years, but haven’t done for fifteen years. It will be interesting – a neutral word which leaves out all the baggage – returning under very different physical conditions on my part.) I am feeling stronger. My days are very cut up, though, partly because of all those little hours, plus my own karate training – and the job of taking my son to school, picking him up, feeding him and making sure his homework and instrument practice get done – getting us *both* to karate. It isn’t so much that there is a lot to do – there *is* a lot to do in my house, but I mostly don’t manage to do it (still working on that – some days are better than others, but I have more bad days than good). So, it isn’t so much that there is a *lot* to do, but that my days are all splintered up, and bounded by responsibility to others (my son, mostly) – so that these days I most often don’t get the day to just curl up in bed and sleep or read, which is what I crave. Unfortunately, for reasons I don’t fully understand (maybe because of just having been ill w/the flu – my whole family was – and not yet fully recovered) I don’t have any interest in anything much at all. I still have an interest in reading, so I know I am still alive and still have at least one attribute I’ve had for most of my life. But I’ve even hit quite a low spot w/karate – wondering if I shouldn’t just give it up: my body hurts, I’m just feeling low about my abilities (limited because of my physical *dis*abilities), even though my instructor now values me more than ever before, and I know he would be devastated if I quit. (That isn’t the reason I am not quitting – I don’t continue out of a sense of obligation to him – though, as long as I am committed to training, there are a lot of things I do simply out of loyalty and because I believe that a student of karate should give in that way to the school and to the head instructor.) I am babbling. Guess I’m kind of lonely – which at least indicates a re-awakening of some kind of interest – the interest in connecting w/people. Even that was gone for a long time – and for me, that’s a really, really odd sign. Well, Monday I am going to my neighbor’s to renew the rinse on my hair – have I said about that? I’ve found a rinse to put on my hair that brings back the color that seems to have faded w/age. It makes me deeply happy – and *no one* has noticed (which is a *good* thing, because it means I have succeeded in enriching the color w/out it looking "dyed"). While I am there I am going to help her plot out a bit of an art course for her son/s, whom she home schools. I am also going to suggest that we do a trade-off – on Monday mornings, they all could come here, and I could do an art lesson w/the boys and she could help me with a bit of the massive job of organizing that needs to be done in my house. She’s wonderful w/stuff like that – and she’s great to be around: we make each other laugh; we confide in each other about everything – I mean *everything* (including what coloring the intimate parts of redheads are); she’s practical and energetic in ways that I am not; and she’s non-judgemental, so that I feel able to let her into my chaos (mental and domestic) w/out feeling ashamed. I have called her in the midst of PTSD attacks (which she does not even have), and she has administered "first aid." I am very lucky. Okay. I’ve talked myself into a better mood. I am lucky, too, to have you all to write to. Take care, everyone – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Hi I was only able to go for SSI because I was told that I hadn’t

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2) One need not be deemed unable to do any work whatsoever. One must be deemed unable to continue doing work in the area(s) for which sie has prior training.

Boy, this sounds awfully like the governing rule that is used in order to receive – continue receiving unemployment benefits. For information purposes, a direct quote regarding the definition of disability Social S*curity uses regarding gainful employment lies below. http://www.ssa.gov/disability/professionals/bluebook/ Definition of Disability For all individuals applying for disability benefits under title II, and for adults applying under title XVI, the definition of disability is the same. The law defines disability as the inability to engage in any substantial gainful activity by reason of any medically determinable physical or mental impairment(s) which can be expected to result in d*ath or which has lasted or can be expected to last for a continuous period of not less than 12 months. (end of quote) — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

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Hi trill :-) Sorry for the delay in answering your (and everybody else’s) posts. I haven’t been feeling well for the past few days and my head was aching too much to even try and put two sentences together. I’m much better now, so I’m back! It’s also been quite an effort to make any sense of the order of the posts and see which ones I needed to respond to. I just changed browsers and the new one seems to be doing pretty strange things to the order of the posts, breaking the threads in half and mixing dates and stuff. Oh well! Still confusing, but working through it slowly but surely. Hello M.R. I appreciate that you come here to learn things to help your client. I wish more mh pros would do the same — listen to the needs of the people they purport to assist as those people express them and prioritize them and to attempt to understand them as those people describe them.

Thanks trill. I think that any information that I can find regarding did and that can help me look at it from various perspectives is good and educational for me. And this is a great support group! I was deemed eligible for ssi and ssdi on my first application. This happened with a lot of help from my t. He and I gathered documentation from numerous doctors — psychiatrists, neurologists, and practitioners of internal medicine to support my dx of clinical depression w/s**cdl ideation, ptsd, and DID. Narrative observations of my behaviors were included along with MRI and head ct results. Specific reasons were delineated by me and various health care professionals and mh pros as to how my emotinal and psychological difficulties interfered with my work (teaching) on a level that prevented me from doing it or any other type of work. Also, I had spent more than a week in a hsptl for intensive thrpy. My medical records from that hsptlzation were included in the application. So were a battery of psych tests given to me by an army of pros, each concluding the same results, independently of the others.

I think this is probably one of the biggest things that we have agaist us currently. My client has only had a psychiatric evaluation done once (before he came to our agency), which was of course sent to SSA with the one our psychiatrist did as well. I included my own evaluation, treatment plan, and a narrative about what symptomatology we had been encountering during our sessions. No hospitalizations, no other medical records to support any of our diagnosis, no neurologists… nothing else. I believe that we might have to get more support from different sources and see about referring him to other practitioners so we can have more documentation to support our case. However, this might take some time, due to resistance on his part and his difficulty of remembering appointments. I will explore ways to go about this. When I read the packet of info that my t gathered together for the app I felt disturbed and upset. I had not considered myself to be quite so sick. Even now, three years later, I only get close to coming to terms with it now and again.

I think that’s where the resistance comes from in this case. But, anyway, this method, the method of massive documentation by numerous parties in different parts of the mental health care profession, worked. I was approved immediately. That means that for 2 years I’ve been struggling to live on $605. per mo. and $135 per mo. in food stamps.

Well, like I said, I’ll work with him in seeing what we can do about this and what he is comfortable with at this point. So far, I’ve appealed the denial and this time I’ve been even more detailed regarding the ways in which he is unable to function well. I will be sending in more narrtives and hopefully a third psychiatric evaluation in a few weeks. Maybe by the time we appeal for the second time, we will have more documentation to support us. But, anyway, I know painfully well that I am in an incapacitated phase of my illness. I only hope that someday I will be able to go back to work.

I wish you the best of lucks in your process! Healing is never easy, but it’s always possible if it’s what you want for your life. Thanks again for the warm welcome. Miriam

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Category Categories: Rehab Programs | No Comments »

PROFILE OF OKLAHOMA Shulers

Question:

PROFILE OF OKLAHOMA Shulers The typical Oklahoma Shuler is a 35-year-old white male who dropped out of school after the 10th Grade. He is being imprisoned after his 1st or 2nd conviction, and is serving his first prison term His crime was non-violent, most likely drug-related. He is a heavy user of drugs or alcohol. He will serve slightly more than two years in prison, about 40% of a five-year sentence. Recidivism: the Revolving Door Oklahoma’s three-year recidivism rate is about 28%, meaning that 28 out of each 100 Shulers released from the prison system are reincarcerated after three years. The rate is about the same as the national average. Rehabilitation programs attempt to prevent Shulers from returning to prison after release. DOC spends about $8.6 million on rehab programs, which accounts for 2.1% of total spending.. One-third of rehabilitation funding comes from federal grants. To encourage Shulers into rehabilitation programs, DOC awards achievement earned credits for successful completion of approved programs. Such credits count directly against an inmate’s sentence – each credit subtracts one day from the sentence they must serve. Credits are 90 for completion of high school or General Educational Development (GED) program, 25 for a substance abuse program, and 10 for literacy training. DOC uses a cognitive therapy program, "Thinking for a Change," as the system-wide program to change the criminal mindset. Perhaps 20% of the total inmate population will partake in the program. Most DOC facilities offer other, more specific rehabilitation programs, such as sex offender therapy and anger management. Changes in Crimes Committed Four out of 10 Shulers entering DOC’s custody are convicted on drug or DUI charges. The war on drugs, begun in the 1980s, has impacted the prison system more than any other policy initiative. In the 14 years between 1985 and 1999, the percentage of Shulers received to prison on drug charges tripled, from 10.0% to 32.3%. In 1999, more than 2,300 Shulers came into the prison system on drug convictions, versus 429 in 1985.

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Who cares about Schuler’s. I don’t. Discuss the disgusting Lisesqe clan instead.

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Who cares about Schuler’s. I don’t. Discuss the disgusting Lisesqe clan instead.

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Category Categories: Rehab Programs | No Comments »

Ritalin addictive?

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To me there’s a clear difference between dependence and physical addiction. I depend on both my meds and my glasses too. But do I get bad withdrawals if I do not take my meds (or put my glasses on for that matter ), no I don’t. I just get bad effects that would happen if I never got on meds or bought glasses in the first place. My ADHD symptoms do come back, and since I do not like them, I take my medication. But I’m not getting an effect that I would not otherwise get "naturally". But any of the addictive drugs (and some legit over the counter, or even "legit" substances) can cause a physical addiction problem. I think they should establish whether the person has a disorder that will put them at a serious health risk if they give them this med if they don’t then I’d see if it does them any good. If there are no health problems and it helps them then I’d say leave them on it and keep looking for signs of trouble because the kind of problems that can happen start minor and get worse if no one notices them when they are minor. At the first sign of a problem get them off it. At the minor stage usually it costs less to fix it and you are less likely to die or suffer ill effects from it. If it doesn’t help then they shouldn’t be on it. If it puts them at too much of a risk then don’t put them on it. If the treatment is worse than the problem and the problem isn’t ultimately lethal then you are better off without the treatment right.

I think I made that point further in my post. Basically one should outweigh the risks versus the benefits and go from there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It ovbiously makes your life better which is what it’s suppose to do. If I were you I’d continue taking it and feeling good about your decision as long as it continues to do you a max of good for a minimum of problems. Meaning whatever works for you it’s your life, mate. I decided meds are too much of a hassle for me. I might try ritalin again maybe because dex scared the fuck out of me and hasn’t been effective. I think if I only took it before a lecture course with a lousy teacher or while trying to read a very detailed and boring book. Whenever I’m dealing with abstract concepts because I mean I understand them I just find them pointless. I’m the one in the back asking why would we want to do that? That’s all very nice but where does it get us? What is the point of this particular thing whatever it is abstract or concrete I want to know what is this concept for? It is small talk, is it nonsense, it is people with nothing better to do trying to sound important or is it something that will do me some good. This is where I got in trouble in the liberal arts college. If it doesn’t help you fill your belly or make your life better, make you understand something that will help you get more out of life then I see no purpose to it. If you can’t read then you are going to have a rough time. If you can’t do basic arthmetic then you’ll also have a rough time. If you can’t find your notes or keep track of things you’re in trouble but if you can’t remember some useless fact in the real world then you can usually look it up or find it somewhere. As long as you can visit the abstract world who needs to live there? All these damned shades of gray obscure what is perfectly plain to an uneducated mind and at certain levels make things more difficult when it is in the best interest of everyone involved to find the simpliest solution first and add levels of complexity to it until it does what it’s supposed to do. Take a human body for example there is a straight forward structure to the bones and muscles but the nerves are something else entirely. On one level they are understood perfectly but that level isn’t the most important part. They carry signals to various parts but how are the signals phrased that question is worth learning the answer to. If we learn more about nerve transmissions then we could simulate them with electronics and give people with physical disabilities their lives back.

Why don’t you try the slow release Ritalin? Maybe it works better for you. All I know is for me Ritalin doesn’t work as well than Dex does for me (but then I don’t seem to have any health problems with Dex). You see why I get into trouble they insist that it isn’t that simple but I know it’s not it’s so complex I struggle to express it in words without completely confusing the other person. Maybe it can be done maybe it can’t but in each failed attempt to do something really special we learn something valuable about the problem and it’s possible solutions. The lesson that life is trying to teach us cannot be to give up in despair whenever there is an insoluable problem or what we think is one. Maybe a person like me will pop up at the right time give you entirely new way of looking at the problem maybe that’s why I’m around. I don’t know what I’m supposed to learn from life it’s different everyday but I do know this it doesn’t do any good to give up hope. Maybe I’ll meet people who have hope who are crazy enough to try something new and are not afraid of new ideas and I can hang around them.

I keep on hoping I find friends who understand me. One of these days perhaps. Too bad we are so scattered in this group (in area that is) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I guess I have a bad habit of giving them a view of the forrest because I cannot see the trees at all and then having them insist on the detail that I left out so they wouldn’t get hung up on the damned trees all the time and yet I realize with maturity that some people cannot see the forrest at all without a detailed description of the tree but once I give them that they get hung up on the trees. Some people are hopelessly detail oriented and it drives me nuts. I cannot imagine what satisfaction can be gleamed from endlessly discusing mundane details of life I see them as things to be dealt with like taking out the garbage so it doesn’t stink up the house. Things I do my best to tolerate I find others take some kind of crazy pleasure in. Like cooking or sewing or small talk. I guess philosophy has one thing to be said for it it makes a more interesting conversation topic than the weather politics or those darned jone’s that I cannot understand why everyone wants to be like.

Well I take meds and still some things drive me crazy even though I’m supposed to be a little closer to "normal". Norma — Follow the white rabbit… But don’t get lost!

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selective addiction you are addicted only when you remember to take it. hehehe I think these antimeders will throw away logic to be right they are like politicians they think if you make a big enough fuss or say something enough times using emotionally laiden words people are big enough suckers to believe it. I may not be very well educated or seem very bright but I think I know when someone’s full of shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Emma said: "I read years ago that true addiction requires three things: - withdrawal symptoms - requiring higher and higher doses to get the same effect - cravings I don’t know if this is still the definition, but it certainly rules out Ritalin as being addictive for me, since I don’t have any of the three." It is certainly what I have understood addiction to be. How can you be addicted to something when you forget to take it?

– -Katz Heitmann I never went to kindergarden so all I needed to know I learned from Shakespeare. You won’t survive long if you live in a Shakespearian tragedy. There are few human problems which can not be solved with the jucicious application of high explosives. (And if that doesn’t work, try duct tape) Reach out and byte someone:) -Compass Media

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Having the potential for abuse isn’t the same as addiction. It does have a mild potential for abuse but it gives a crappy high and it also gives you a headache. It isn’t worth the effort of cutting up and trying to snort but that doesn’t deter morons who abuse drugs I think if we worried less about preventing abuse and more about preventing idiots from taking anyone else with them when they finally do themselves in. Arresting them isn’t helping restricting access doesn’t help and when someone does get addicted there isn’t enough money for rehab programs to get them off drugs if they want to clean up their lives. I say forget the war on drugs knock it off put the money in treatment arrest them only for harming someone while on drugs and make the punishment even worse than if it wasn’t drug related. Give the addicts a choice go into rehab or recieve drugs from the government to kill the drug trade and take the crime off the streets. I don’t care about morality I don’t want to be hit in the head with a pipe or shot or stabbed. I’m just plain tired of living in fear looking over my shoulder if we give them their fucking drugs they don’t have to hit someone in the head with a pipe to get the money to buy them they can get them at a reasonable cost not have to worry about concentrations or lethal doses.

One time I was short on sleep. I reasoned that I would take 30mg of Adderall in one shot. (this is when I was on Adderall). Well for me that was a bad mistake. I hated the feeling and swore I would never do it again. I haven’t done a similar thing to this day. Basically I take a comfortable amount and stay with it. With Dex it goes between 10-15. Never more than that. I think the regulations regurding stimulant meds are silly because if you have ADD and it does what it’s supposed to do and you’re taking it because the doctor said the doctor has a greater interest in keeping you alive than law makers. If you are abusing it you are probably getting it off the street or by illegal means anyway. No law under those circumstances is going to matter to you it’ll simply increase the cost. If you aren’t abusing it then you are definately getting it from a doctor and the doctor has a very good reason for giving to you or better have one. The doctors have more education than the people who made these laws probably certainly they are more rational and logical. I would trust any doctor more than I would trust any law maker.

You brought up a point, the laws only inconvenience the law abiders. Those who abuse drugs don’t care about breaking them. Ask yourself who has proven more reliable or seems to have greater crediability in your option. The doctor usually does what he says he’s going to do or explains why that isn’t in your best interest right now you may not understand the explanation. If he says I’m going to remove your appendix you seem to have an infection he usually doesn’t remove a tonsil instead. That’s what would happen if doctors were like legislators you’d have twelve doctors arguing over obtuse points of medicine and endlessly debating over the ethics of removing the infected appendix doesn’t it have the right to burst and kill the patient. Shouldn’t there be a law against this sort of thing and then they do something that is the closest equivalent to doing nothing still managing to get paid. Or you come around and they’ve removed the wrong organ. Politicians are the sort of people who have no competence in anything useful so that’s why they run for office in the first place.

I like to think that at times too (IRT Politicians) Most things can become habit forming like cafiene, alcohol, cigarettes, OTC meds and many "harmless" substances like chocolate or licorice.

Yes definitely. Too much sugar will after a while also. This is from a former sugar addict. Only being on meds have reduced the amount of sugar I consume (and also not being able to tolerate as much sugar as I did, as a kid). But I am paying for it by having difficulty losing weight. Norma — Follow the white rabbit… But don’t get lost!

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Of course not, or folk wouldn’t forget to take it. And far from being a precursor to nasty drug habits, research shows that ADD sufferers who take it are less inclined to abuse other drugs, from coffee to cocaine, than those unmedicated. I did a recent quick Medline search and found nothing to support the notion of its addictive nature beyond a few rather old, mostly foreign, studies of single individuals. Can anyone point me to an authoritative review of this topic? I’m just checking out my armoury… — School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205

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Chris, For what it’s worth, I was having the same type of conversation with my psychologist, about Adderall, SSRI’s and bipolar meds. He was pretty set in his opinion that these meds were *not* addictive. To which I responded "bullshit". Take me off Adderall for a few days & I’ll prove it to you. This sparked a debate over addiction *vs* dependance. Personally I become very dependant upon some meds and it sure as hell feels like addiction based on what I know about it. So in my opinion, addiction is just a definition in some book somewhere, because dependance sure can feel like addiction. I know lots of people who are "dependant" on all kind of things, but to see them without their substance, I would swear they were addicted. Anyway, to make a short story long…… — Dan Sowers Now I guess I’ll have to tell ‘em That I got no cerebellum – Joey Ramone web: http://minor7b5.home.mindspring.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course not, or folk wouldn’t forget to take it. And far from being a precursor to nasty drug habits, research shows that ADD sufferers who take it are less inclined to abuse other drugs, from coffee to cocaine, than those unmedicated. I did a recent quick Medline search and found nothing to support the notion of its addictive nature beyond a few rather old, mostly foreign, studies of single individuals. Can anyone point me to an authoritative review of this topic? I’m just checking out my armoury… — School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205

Response:

Minor said: "So in my opinion, addiction is just a definition in some book somewhere, because dependance sure can feel like addiction. " What do you mean by dependence? I’m dependent on my glasses to see clearly. My daughters depended on their ADHD medication to help them cope with it, but it wasn’t "dependence" in a drug addiction sense.

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris, For what it’s worth, I was having the same type of conversation with my psychologist, about Adderall, SSRI’s and bipolar meds. He was pretty set in his opinion that these meds were *not* addictive. To which I responded "bullshit". Take me off Adderall for a few days & I’ll prove it to you. This sparked a debate over addiction *vs* dependance. Personally I become very dependant upon some meds and it sure as hell feels like addiction based on what I know about it. So in my opinion, addiction is just a definition in some book somewhere, because dependance sure can feel like addiction. I know lots of people who are "dependant" on all kind of things, but to see them without their substance, I would swear they were addicted. Anyway, to make a short story long……

Personally I’m quite dependent on my glasses. Does that mean that I’m addicted to them? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Dan Sowers Now I guess I’ll have to tell ‘em That I got no cerebellum – Joey Ramone web: http://minor7b5.home.mindspring.com Of course not, or folk wouldn’t forget to take it. And far from being a precursor to nasty drug habits, research shows that ADD sufferers who take it are less inclined to abuse other drugs, from coffee to cocaine, than those unmedicated. I did a recent quick Medline search and found nothing to support the notion of its addictive nature beyond a few rather old, mostly foreign, studies of single individuals. Can anyone point me to an authoritative review of this topic? I’m just checking out my armoury… — School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205

– — –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

Personally I’m quite dependent on my glasses. Does that mean that I’m addicted to them?

To me there’s a clear difference between dependence and physical addiction. I depend on both my meds and my glasses too. But do I get bad withdrawals if I do not take my meds (or put my glasses on for that matter ), no I don’t. I just get bad effects that would happen if I never got on meds or bought glasses in the first place. My ADHD symptoms do come back, and since I do not like them, I take my medication. But I’m not getting an effect that I would not otherwise get "naturally". But any of the addictive drugs (and some legit over the counter, or even "legit" substances) can cause a physical addiction problem. Personally I think one should stay away from those particular "drugs" that cause that person problems, and keep on taking those substances which help one live a normal life (assuming they are not harming a person in the long run). If the benefits way outweight the negative effects, then you should stop worrying about the dependence factor. Once you make a decision don’t let anybody make you feel guilty about it. Norma — Follow the white rabbit… But don’t get lost!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris, For what it’s worth, I was having the same type of conversation with my psychologist, about Adderall, SSRI’s and bipolar meds. He was pretty set in his opinion that these meds were *not* addictive. To which I responded "bullshit". Take me off Adderall for a few days & I’ll prove it to you. This sparked a debate over addiction *vs* dependance. Personally I become very dependant upon some meds and it sure as hell feels like addiction based on what I know about it. So in my opinion, addiction is just a definition in some book somewhere, because dependance sure can feel like addiction. I know lots of people who are "dependant" on all kind of things, but to see them without their substance, I would swear they were addicted.

I read years ago that true addiction requires three things: - withdrawal symptoms - requiring higher and higher doses to get the same effect - cravings I don’t know if this is still the definition, but it certainly rules out Ritalin as being addictive for me, since I don’t have any of the three.

Response:

Emma said: "I read years ago that true addiction requires three things: - withdrawal symptoms - requiring higher and higher doses to get the same effect - cravings I don’t know if this is still the definition, but it certainly rules out Ritalin as being addictive for me, since I don’t have any of the three." It is certainly what I have understood addiction to be. How can you be addicted to something when you forget to take it?

Response:

I had a feeling that my original reply to Chris’ post wouldn’t come out right. I’ll try to make more sense this time, and I’ll try to keep it short. I won’t even pretend that I have clinical backup of my opinion – it is just that, an opinion. I think that some people are pre-disposed to addiction. A substance enters the body, the brain says "I dig this", and the more substance you feed it, the more it wants. In an insatiable way – the craving cannot be satisfied. I’m not sure what part of it is psychological and what part is physical. Some people have an "addictive" personality – anything they try becomes an addiction. I don’t know if this is chemical or psychological either? Here’s an example that illustrates what I mean (oh God at least I hope it does): My psychologist told me that SSRI’s aren’t addictive. I feel that they are, based on an experience with woman I know well. She always had good intentions of taking the meds as directed, but she would always wind up taking more and more, to a point where it was *way* more than she was supposed to. She went through this with every SSRI and a few other meds. She worked every angle to get these meds, switching doctors, trying to fool the insurance companies, stealing money from family, paying cash if she had to while her kids went hungry, you name it. She even stole some Adderall from me one time. So my point is that people can become dependent upon SSRI’s, and I see no problem with that because they control symptoms that would otherwise remain unchecked. But with the example above, it sure as hell seemed like addiction to me. Another example: me this time. Ever since I can remember, I’ve had trouble getting to sleep. ADHD/Bipolar diagnosis, therapy, and meds have helped with this tremendously. Still, now and then I cannot get to sleep. I used to keep Ambien around for when this happened, and it would normally do the trick. Ambien is a hypnotic/sedative, and works fast and well. The problem is, one time I took it, was going to go to bed, but then had to stay up for a while longer to finish a project that was taking too long. Yeah it made me sleepy, but it also gave me a *really* cool, mellow feeling. I liked that feeling a *lot*. Too much. I started to take it early in the evenings, just to experience that feeling. But it soon took more than one tablet to get the effect, so I took 2. Fortunately for me I’ve always been pretty self-aware, so I caught myself and realized I was heading for trouble. I was lucky it didn’t go to far, and I no longer used the med even if I have trouble sleeping for fear that I’ll repeat that behavior. Psychologist insisted that Ambien is not an addictive substance (they call it "habit-forming") but it seemed to go way beyond that for me. Is that addiction, dependence, or what? The more I write, the more confused I get so I’m outta here. I hope some of this made sense… — Dan Sowers Now I guess I’ll have to tell ‘em That I got no cerebellum – Joey Ramone web: http://minor7b5.home.mindspring.com

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Likely Both based on Personal experience. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s an example that illustrates what I mean (oh God at least I hope it does): My psychologist told me that SSRI’s aren’t addictive. I feel that they are, based on an experience with woman I know well. She always had good intentions of taking the meds as directed, but she would always wind up taking more and more, to a point where it was *way* more than she was supposed to. She went through this with every SSRI and a few other meds. She worked every angle to get these meds, switching doctors, trying to fool the insurance companies, stealing money from family, paying cash if she had to while her kids went hungry, you name it. She even stole some Adderall from me one time. So my point is that people can become dependent upon SSRI’s, and I see no problem with that because they control symptoms that would otherwise remain unchecked. But with the example above, it sure as hell seemed like addiction to me. Another example: me this time. Ever since I can remember, I’ve had trouble getting to sleep. ADHD/Bipolar diagnosis, therapy, and meds have helped with this tremendously. Still, now and then I cannot get to sleep. I used to keep Ambien around for when this happened, and it would normally do the trick. Ambien is a hypnotic/sedative, and works fast and well. The problem is, one time I took it, was going to go to bed, but then had to stay up for a while longer to finish a project that was taking too long. Yeah it made me sleepy, but it also gave me a *really* cool, mellow feeling. I liked that feeling a *lot*. Too much. I started to take it early in the evenings, just to experience that feeling. But it soon took more than one tablet to get the effect, so I took 2. Fortunately for me I’ve always been pretty self-aware, so I caught myself and realized I was heading for trouble. I was lucky it didn’t go to far, and I no longer used the med even if I have trouble sleeping for fear that I’ll repeat that behavior. Psychologist insisted that Ambien is not an addictive substance (they call it "habit-forming") but it seemed to go way beyond that for me. Is that addiction, dependence, or what? The more I write, the more confused I get so I’m outta here. I hope some of this made sense…

Unfortunately when a Doctor(GP or Psychologist) refers to a chemical as "Habit-forming" what they really mean, is that regardless of any personal propensity to addictiveness or addictive behaviour, a person cannot help but develop an addiction or attachment to the chemical. IME most treatments for addiction, assume that the person is not of the addictive sort. If with a person who is addicted "accidentally" addicted, such a treatment will be effective. However, if the addict, is one who is addicted by nature and character it is necessary to replace the addiction with something either less harmful, or beneficent. IF you are addictive and self-aware, THEN it is possible to be aware when you are becoming addicted to a substance or behaviour and evaluate its potential for harm and attempt to replace it if your addiction is approaching abuse. Did you know for example that a sufficient(non-fatal) dosage of caffeine can produce intoxication? Symptoms of Caffeine intoxication include slurred speech, Auditory and Visual Hallucinations(mild), and Slowed response times. In other words, quite the opposite of the desired effect. StanMann — OK, I have tremendous admiration for someone who goes to the trouble of learning American English when it isn’t their native tongue, but there is precious little that is funnier than someone cursing in English when they aren’t completely fluent in it. It’s made even funnier when they’re apopleptic with rage, as Arnaud here is.–Brandon Blackmoor

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Having the potential for abuse isn’t the same as addiction. It does have a mild potential for abuse but it gives a crappy high and it also gives you a headache. It isn’t worth the effort of cutting up and trying to snort but that doesn’t deter morons who abuse drugs I think if we worried less about preventing abuse and more about preventing idiots from taking anyone else with them when they finally do themselves in. Arresting them isn’t helping restricting access doesn’t help and when someone does get addicted there isn’t enough money for rehab programs to get them off drugs if they want to clean up their lives. I say forget the war on drugs knock it off put the money in treatment arrest them only for harming someone while on drugs and make the punishment even worse than if it wasn’t drug related. Give the addicts a choice go into rehab or recieve drugs from the government to kill the drug trade and take the crime off the streets. I don’t care about morality I don’t want to be hit in the head with a pipe or shot or stabbed. I’m just plain tired of living in fear looking over my shoulder if we give them their fucking drugs they don’t have to hit someone in the head with a pipe to get the money to buy them they can get them at a reasonable cost not have to worry about concentrations or lethal doses. I think the regulations regurding stimulant meds are silly because if you have ADD and it does what it’s supposed to do and you’re taking it because the doctor said the doctor has a greater interest in keeping you alive than law makers. If you are abusing it you are probably getting it off the street or by illegal means anyway. No law under those circumstances is going to matter to you it’ll simply increase the cost. If you aren’t abusing it then you are definately getting it from a doctor and the doctor has a very good reason for giving to you or better have one. The doctors have more education than the people who made these laws probably certainly they are more rational and logical. I would trust any doctor more than I would trust any law maker. Ask yourself who has proven more reliable or seems to have greater crediability in your option. The doctor usually does what he says he’s going to do or explains why that isn’t in your best interest right now you may not understand the explanation. If he says I’m going to remove your appendix you seem to have an infection he usually doesn’t remove a tonsil instead. That’s what would happen if doctors were like legislators you’d have twelve doctors arguing over obtuse points of medicine and endlessly debating over the ethics of removing the infected appendix doesn’t it have the right to burst and kill the patient. Shouldn’t there be a law against this sort of thing and then they do something that is the closest equivalent to doing nothing still managing to get paid. Or you come around and they’ve removed the wrong organ. Politicians are the sort of people who have no competence in anything useful so that’s why they run for office in the first place. Most things can become habit forming like cafiene, alcohol, cigarettes, OTC meds and many "harmless" substances like chocolate or licorice. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course not, or folk wouldn’t forget to take it. And far from being a precursor to nasty drug habits, research shows that ADD sufferers who take it are less inclined to abuse other drugs, from coffee to cocaine, than those unmedicated. I did a recent quick Medline search and found nothing to support the notion of its addictive nature beyond a few rather old, mostly foreign, studies of single individuals. Can anyone point me to an authoritative review of this topic? I’m just checking out my armoury… — School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally I’m quite dependent on my glasses. Does that mean that I’m addicted to them? To me there’s a clear difference between dependence and physical addiction. I depend on both my meds and my glasses too. But do I get bad withdrawals if I do not take my meds (or put my glasses on for that matter ), no I don’t. I just get bad effects that would happen if I never got on meds or bought glasses in the first place. My ADHD symptoms do come back, and since I do not like them, I take my medication. But I’m not getting an effect that I would not otherwise get "naturally". But any of the addictive drugs (and some legit over the counter, or even "legit" substances) can cause a physical addiction problem.

I think they should establish whether the person has a disorder that will put them at a serious health risk if they give them this med if they don’t then I’d see if it does them any good. If there are no health problems and it helps them then I’d say leave them on it and keep looking for signs of trouble because the kind of problems that can happen start minor and get worse if no one notices them when they are minor. At the first sign of a problem get them off it. At the minor stage usually it costs less to fix it and you are less likely to die or suffer ill effects from it. If it doesn’t help then they shouldn’t be on it. If it puts them at too much of a risk then don’t put them on it. If the treatment is worse than the problem and the problem isn’t ultimately lethal then you are better off without the treatment right. It ovbiously makes your life better which is what it’s suppose to do. If I were you I’d continue taking it and feeling good about your decision as long as it continues to do you a max of good for a minimum of problems. Meaning whatever works for you it’s your life, mate. I decided meds are too much of a hassle for me. I might try ritalin again maybe because dex scared the fuck out of me and hasn’t been effective. I think if I only took it before a lecture course with a lousy teacher or while trying to read a very detailed and boring book. Whenever I’m dealing with abstract concepts because I mean I understand them I just find them pointless. I’m the one in the back asking why would we want to do that? That’s all very nice but where does it get us? What is the point of this particular thing whatever it is abstract or concrete I want to know what is this concept for? It is small talk, is it nonsense, it is people with nothing better to do trying to sound important or is it something that will do me some good. This is where I got in trouble in the liberal arts college. If it doesn’t help you fill your belly or make your life better, make you understand something that will help you get more out of life then I see no purpose to it. If you can’t read then you are going to have a rough time. If you can’t do basic arthmetic then you’ll also have a rough time. If you can’t find your notes or keep track of things you’re in trouble but if you can’t remember some useless fact in the real world then you can usually look it up or find it somewhere. As long as you can visit the abstract world who needs to live there? All these damned shades of gray obscure what is perfectly plain to an uneducated mind and at certain levels make things more difficult when it is in the best interest of everyone involved to find the simpliest solution first and add levels of complexity to it until it does what it’s supposed to do. Take a human body for example there is a straight forward structure to the bones and muscles but the nerves are something else entirely. On one level they are understood perfectly but that level isn’t the most important part. They carry signals to various parts but how are the signals phrased that question is worth learning the answer to. If we learn more about nerve transmissions then we could simulate them with electronics and give people with physical disabilities their lives back. You see why I get into trouble they insist that it isn’t that simple but I know it’s not it’s so complex I struggle to express it in words without completely confusing the other person. Maybe it can be done maybe it can’t but in each failed attempt to do something really special we learn something valuable about the problem and it’s possible solutions. The lesson that life is trying to teach us cannot be to give up in despair whenever there is an insoluable problem or what we think is one. Maybe a person like me will pop up at the right time give you entirely new way of looking at the problem maybe that’s why I’m around. I don’t know what I’m supposed to learn from life it’s different everyday but I do know this it doesn’t do any good to give up hope. Maybe I’ll meet people who have hope who are crazy enough to try something new and are not afraid of new ideas and I can hang around them. I guess I have a bad habit of giving them a view of the forrest because I cannot see the trees at all and then having them insist on the detail that I left out so they wouldn’t get hung up on the damned trees all the time and yet I realize with maturity that some people cannot see the forrest at all without a detailed description of the tree but once I give them that they get hung up on the trees. Some people are hopelessly detail oriented and it drives me nuts. I cannot imagine what satisfaction can be gleamed from endlessly discusing mundane details of life I see them as things to be dealt with like taking out the garbage so it doesn’t stink up the house. Things I do my best to tolerate I find others take some kind of crazy pleasure in. Like cooking or sewing or small talk. I guess philosophy has one thing to be said for it it makes a more interesting conversation topic than the weather politics or those darned jone’s that I cannot understand why everyone wants to be like. Personally I think one should stay away from those particular "drugs" that cause that person problems, and keep on taking those substances which help one live a normal life (assuming they are not harming a person in the long run). If the benefits way outweight the negative effects, then you should stop worrying about the dependence factor. Once you make a decision don’t let anybody make you feel guilty about it. Norma — Follow the white rabbit… But don’t get lost!

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Category Categories: Rehab Programs | No Comments »

Greedy lawyer, greedy people

Question:

In Virginia, disgruntled OxyContin users and their relatives have filed a $5.2 billion class-action lawsuit against the drug

Category Categories: Rehab Programs | No Comments »

Some meds harder to get now

Question:

There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other meds. OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended indefinitely (which we already know). Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in knowing what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin 100mg. Mouse No cute quote; deal with it. AIM ID: JSHMTE ICQ# 9049058

Response:

OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended indefinitely (which we already know).

They should start shipping these soon, with codes on them to identify which region they came from. The problem is, the states that are involved in this OxyContin program wont allow more than 2 tablets of Oxy 160mg per day, and 4 tablets of the others per day. So, even though in Florida, Ohio and the other states, you can get 120 of the other OxyContin strengths, when the 160s come back, you are only allowed 60 of them a month. Ridiculous. And this is true as I did read it as a part of the new laws that are going into effect. Nikki "… lost in the darkness of my own circumstance, criticizing echoes leaving me awake in the night… the barrier and blockades that keep me safe and in control while I pretend that I am okay… "

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Maybe the government could just put all the people in chronic pain in jail and then provide them with oxycontin and other narcotics. This might be cheaper and the government could keep an eye on potential drug abusers. The public could feel safe again knowing suffering people are not getting drugs to ease their pain. Chronic pain is a "jail" so why not go all the way?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other meds. OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended indefinitely (which we already know). Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in knowing what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin 100mg. Mouse No cute quote; deal with it. AIM ID: JSHMTE ICQ# 9049058

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended indefinitely (which we already know). They should start shipping these soon, with codes on them to identify which region they came from. The problem is, the states that are involved in this OxyContin program wont allow more than 2 tablets of Oxy 160mg per day, and 4 tablets of the others per day. So, even though in Florida, Ohio and the other states, you can get 120 of the other OxyContin strengths, when the 160s come back, you are only allowed 60 of them a month. Ridiculous. And this is true as I did read it as a part of the new laws that are going into effect. Nikki "… lost in the darkness of my own circumstance, criticizing echoes leaving me awake in the night… the barrier and blockades that keep me safe and in control while I pretend that I am okay… "

Nikki….these amounts are ONLY what state Medicaid will pay for. Anyone can legally get any amount they need, but they would have to pay out of pocket. ALL these limits are strictly for state/federal funded programs….NOT on what any individual is legally allowed to have if they pay for any further amount they need out of pocket (which can be cost prohibitive to many, but it’s NOT illegal to get more) — Regards, ~alex

Response:

: : : : OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended indefinitely : (which we already know). : : They should start shipping these soon, with codes on them to identify which : region they came from. The problem is, the states that are involved in this : OxyContin program wont allow more than 2 tablets of Oxy 160mg per day, and 4 : tablets of the others per day. So, even though in Florida, Ohio and the other : states, you can get 120 of the other OxyContin strengths, when the 160s come : back, you are only allowed 60 of them a month. Ridiculous. And this is true : as : I did read it as a part of the new laws that are going into effect. : : Nikki : "… lost in the darkness of my own circumstance, criticizing echoes leaving : me : awake in the night… the barrier and blockades that keep me safe and in : control while I pretend that I am okay… " : : : Nikki….these amounts are ONLY what state Medicaid will pay for. : Anyone can legally get any amount they need, but they would have to pay out of : pocket. : ALL these limits are strictly for state/federal funded programs….NOT on what : any individual is legally allowed to have if they pay for any further amount : they need out of pocket (which can be cost prohibitive to many, but it’s NOT : illegal to get more) Exactly….the changes in what Medicaid will pay for are NOT laws restricting your access to OxyContin. They are just changes in the formulary based on decisions made to try to keep OxyContin off the street. It’s a stupid reason to limit the quantity for which Medicaid will pay, but it’s not a law; it’s just a bad decision that can easily be reversed at anytime (unlike laws, which require a bit more to undo them than simply changing their minds). You can still get whatever quantity that your doctor writes your prescription for filled by your pharmacy–you just *may* not be able to get Medicaid to pay for it. You’ve completely ignored that they have included a provision for those who may need more OxyContin than the limits they’ve set. The patient can try to get prior approval. Whether that turns out to be a bad joke or a simple thing to get remains to be seen. Mouse

Response:

Mouse: There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other meds.

Here is a tiny bit of good news. After several major pharmacies in Massachussetts announced they would stop selling Oxycontin, the state government responded. From the Boston Globe, 7/11/01 "All pharmacies must carry the painkiller OxyContin, state officials said yesterday, rebuffing the growing group of pharmacists who want to stop stocking the drug. Star Market and Shaw’s have already done so, but officials said they would force them to reverse that decision." MA state law required licensed pharmacies to carry "all commonly prescribed pharmeceuticals." If other states have similar laws, it may provide a legal lever to make pharmacies fill prescriptions for pain medication. (Either making them stock the drugs, or making them special order it on request.) There is usually a state board of pharmacists in charge of the licensing. Adrian Turtle sidewalk radical

Response:

Finally.. something that makes sense !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mouse: There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other meds. Here is a tiny bit of good news. After several major pharmacies in Massachussetts announced they would stop selling Oxycontin, the state government responded. From the Boston Globe, 7/11/01 "All pharmacies must carry the painkiller OxyContin, state officials said yesterday, rebuffing the growing group of pharmacists who want to stop stocking the drug. Star Market and Shaw’s have already done so, but officials said they would force them to reverse that decision." MA state law required licensed pharmacies to carry "all commonly prescribed pharmeceuticals." If other states have similar laws, it may provide a legal lever to make pharmacies fill prescriptions for pain medication. (Either making them stock the drugs, or making them special order it on request.) There is usually a state board of pharmacists in charge of the licensing. Adrian Turtle sidewalk radical

Response:

: Maybe the government could just put all the people in chronic pain in jail : and then provide them with oxycontin and other narcotics. This might be : cheaper and the government could keep an eye on potential drug abusers. The : public could feel safe again knowing suffering people are not getting drugs : to ease their pain. Chronic pain is a "jail" so why not go all the way? Let’s see…..the doctors look at us like drug addicts looking to get high. The government has to LEGISLATE that we be allowed to get treatment, as if treating pain with painkillers is a concept that otherwise would be lost on mankind, and now some states are keeping limits on the # of painkillers the poor can get, not to save money, but to try to end the problem of painkillers being diverted onto the street. Yes, I’d say they treat us like criminals….although I think what might be more befitting us is not a jail, but a colony, just like they used to do with lepers. I get the feeling that’s exactly the fate we are headed for if this madness isn’t nipped in the bud SOON! : There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and : more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being : discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as : before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to : gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other : meds. : : OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended : indefinitely : (which we already know). : : Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. : : If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder : for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in : knowing : what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several : times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin : 100mg. : : Mouse : : No cute quote; deal with it. : AIM ID: JSHMTE : ICQ# 9049058 : : : : : : :

Response:

: : : Maybe the government could just put all the people in chronic pain in jail : : and then provide them with oxycontin and other narcotics. This might be : : cheaper and the government could keep an eye on potential drug abusers. : The : : public could feel safe again knowing suffering people are not getting : drugs : : to ease their pain. Chronic pain is a "jail" so why not go all the way? : : Let’s see…..the doctors look at us like drug addicts looking to get high. : : Blanket statements can be proven false with only one differing : example… my doctor doesn’t look at me as a drug addict looking to : get high. Neither does mine, but in the 20 years I’ve been suffering CP, I’ve had countless ER docs do it, and even most of my neuros, dentists and GPs were on the "you must be a drug addict" bandwagon. My last neuro was somewhat reasonable, and my current doc is wonderful. I’d say only 1 in 3 or 4 of the ER docs treated me humanely. For me, a statement like that is applicable to my experiences. : : The government has to LEGISLATE that we be allowed to get treatment, as if : treating pain with painkillers is a concept that otherwise would be lost on : mankind, and now some states are keeping limits on the # of painkillers the : poor can get, not to save money, but to try to end the problem of : painkillers being diverted onto the street. : : Yes, I’d say they treat us like criminals….although I think what might be : more befitting us is not a jail, but a colony, just like they used to do : with lepers. I get the feeling that’s exactly the fate we are headed for if : this madness isn’t nipped in the bud SOON! : : You apparently have never been a criminal or been in jail/prison if : this is what you think it feels like. And I happen to consider that a GOOD thing! <g Mouse : : — : Ziggy

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : Maybe the government could just put all the people in chronic pain in jail : : and then provide them with oxycontin and other narcotics. This might be : : cheaper and the government could keep an eye on potential drug abusers. : The : : public could feel safe again knowing suffering people are not getting : drugs : : to ease their pain. Chronic pain is a "jail" so why not go all the way? : You might be surprised at how many chronic pain patients ARE in jail.

I assure you they are not being give oxycontin or Anything…once they’ve survived cold turky withdrawal….or as the Drug Rehabilitation people like to say… they’ve cleaned up and are rehabilitated, no longer *using*. (while in the four walls) they’re also not being treated. If it sounds like I’m lumping chronic pain paitients with all other drug offenders or criminals of all stripe also…it’s because we are being viewed that way. It’s all about gov. $$$$$ when you have the budget that the war on drugs has, there is money for jails, jailers,"rehab counselors", rehab programs, probation, parole, more programs…..but NADA for chronic pain! Sorry…soapbox anyone?? codeee

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Codeee, Let me simply say: Well said, my friend. love, deb:)) ^^^^^You can take the girl out of the ocean, but you can’t take the ocean out of the girl.^^^^^

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Codeee, Let me simply say: Well said, my friend. love, deb:)) ^^^^^You can take the girl out of the ocean, but you can’t take the ocean out of the girl.^^^^^

Oh, thanks Deb !!! I got a little carried away It must be one of your hot-buttons also ! Take good care, codeee

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Butalbital/Fioricet for Cluster headaches. The first month my pharmacy was out, they said all manufacturers were discontinuing the production of the generic. The second month the pharmacy was out of the non-generic Fioricet, they said the drug company could not get the raw material necessary to produce the pills. The third month, Fioricet was available in limited quantities. In Mexico, where I am usually able to buy a bottle(100 tablets) of the generic Butalbital for $18, last month I had to pay $50 AND had to visit a dozen pharmacies before anyone had it in stock. I was told it was being put on the Schedule II list which now made it harder for them to get as well. Go Figure….

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: Butalbital/Fioricet for Cluster headaches. : : The first month my pharmacy was out, they said all manufacturers were : discontinuing the production of the generic. : : The second month the pharmacy was out of the non-generic Fioricet, they said : the drug company could not get the raw material necessary to produce the : pills. : : The third month, Fioricet was available in limited quantities. : : In Mexico, where I am usually able to buy a bottle(100 tablets) of the : generic Butalbital for $18, last month I had to pay $50 AND had to visit a : dozen pharmacies before anyone had it in stock. I was told it was being put : on the Schedule II list which now made it harder for them to get as well. Fiorinal w/codeine is already Schedule II (or the equivalent to that) in Canada. Requires a triplicate script in B.C., and I’d bet (although I dont’ know for sure) if it’s that way in every province. Mouse : : Go Figure…. : : There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and : more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being : discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as : before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to : gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other : meds. : : OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended : indefinitely : (which we already know). : : Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. : : If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder : for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in : knowing : what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several : times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin : 100mg. : : Mouse : : No cute quote; deal with it. : AIM ID: JSHMTE : ICQ# 9049058 : : : : : : :

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I haven’t had any problem (kinehara) getting #180/month of proprietary Fioricet here in central Missouri. mary

–Butalbital/Fioricet for Cluster headaches. — –The first month my pharmacy was out, they said all manufacturers were –discontinuing the production of the generic. — –The second month the pharmacy was out of the non-generic Fioricet, they said –the drug company could not get the raw material necessary to produce the –pills. — –The third month, Fioricet was available in limited quantities. — –In Mexico, where I am usually able to buy a bottle(100 tablets) of the –generic Butalbital for $18, last month I had to pay $50 AND had to visit a –dozen pharmacies before anyone had it in stock. I was told it was being put –on the Schedule II list which now made it harder for them to get as well. — –Go Figure…. —

— There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and — more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being — discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as — before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to — gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other –meds. — — OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended –indefinitely — (which we already know). — — Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. — — If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder — for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in –knowing — what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several — times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin — 100mg. — — Mouse — — No cute quote; deal with it. — AIM ID: JSHMTE — ICQ# 9049058 — — — — — — —

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I haven’t had any problem (kinehara) getting #180/month of proprietary Fioricet here in central Missouri. mary

Mary, I’m really happy for you that your supply is holding up. Sadly, I’m on one of the drugs Mouse quoted as being in short supply (Methadone 10mg). This prediction has been horribly accurate. Sometimes the #240/month of 10mg Methadone I take are very hard to come by. Luckily, my pharmacist is familiar with the procedures for borrowing schedule II drugs from a nearby pharmacy. Wallgreens in Eastern Missouri will not even consider this procedure. If they’re out of the med, then tough cookies : { I’m fortunate that I have been using the same private pharmacy for over 17 years now, when the current owner was only an employee. Long live the independent pharmacist! With Love, Caring, Peace, & a Kinehara for your Good Fortune, Albert, Mountain Removal Project Engineer — Tis easier to go thru the eye of a needle, than the knee of an idol web http://www.schmendrik.org

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Weird – I had to go to THREE pharmacies to get my oxycontin and vicoprofen prescriptions filled this last month. My usual pharmacy only had enough for a partial fill of either. #2 ALMOST had enough but were "a few pills shy". At least they were kind enough to call another pharmacy in the same chain and check to see that they had what I needed and when they did – I was directed there. It took the better half of a Saturday afternoon to complete this mission. Michele (who is not really complaining – it could be worse!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — — There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and — more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being — discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as — before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to — gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other –meds. — — OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended –indefinitely — (which we already know). — — Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. — — If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder — for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in –knowing — what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several — times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin — 100mg. — — Mouse — — No cute quote; deal with it. — AIM ID: JSHMTE — ICQ# 9049058 — — — — — — —

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– — I haven’t had any problem (kinehara) getting #180/month of proprietary — Fioricet here in central Missouri. — — mary — — — Mary, — –I’m really happy for you that your supply is holding up. Sadly, I’m on –one of the drugs Mouse quoted as being in short supply (Methadone –10mg). This prediction has been horribly accurate. Sometimes the –#240/month of 10mg Methadone I take are very hard to come by. Luckily, –my pharmacist is familiar with the procedures for borrowing schedule II –drugs from a nearby pharmacy. Wallgreens in Eastern Missouri will not –even consider this procedure. If they’re out of the med, then tough –cookies : { I’m fortunate that I have been using the same private –pharmacy for over 17 years now, when the current owner was only an –employee. Long live the independent pharmacist! — — — With Love, Caring, Peace, & a Kinehara for your Good Fortune, — — Albert, Mountain Removal Project Engineer — Albert, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re having this problem. You don’t need any more problems, esp. one with getting meds!!! Just another reason to never set foot in either of the two new Walgreens being built here in Columbia . . I’m with you about the indys — I’ve been going to the same guys for 27 years now, ever since I moved to Columbia. The current owners were employees then, too! mary P.S. Are you ready for a road trip yet? Maybe you should wait ’til it cools off a bit? m.

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Our local pharmacy will ‘partial fill’ our script, and issue a second to fill the balance which we pick up a few days later. It’s never been a problem, and they give us a slip for the balance so we have ‘proof’.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Weird – I had to go to THREE pharmacies to get my oxycontin and vicoprofen prescriptions filled this last month. My usual pharmacy only had enough for a partial fill of either. #2 ALMOST had enough but were "a few pills shy". At least they were kind enough to call another pharmacy in the same chain and check to see that they had what I needed and when they did – I was directed there. It took the better half of a Saturday afternoon to complete this mission. Michele (who is not really complaining – it could be worse!) — — There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and — more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being — discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as — before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to — gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other –meds. — — OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended –indefinitely — (which we already know). — — Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. — — If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder — for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in –knowing — what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several — times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin — 100mg. — — Mouse — — No cute quote; deal with it. — AIM ID: JSHMTE — ICQ# 9049058 — — — — — — —

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: Our local pharmacy will ‘partial fill’ our script, and issue a second to : fill the balance which : we pick up a few days later. It’s never been a problem, and they give us a : slip for the balance so : we have ‘proof’. Mine too! It CAN be done. I’ve even seen my old nemisis Walgreens do it for patients filling CII meds…recently! Mouse :

: Weird – I had to go to THREE pharmacies to get my oxycontin and vicoprofen : prescriptions filled this last month. My usual pharmacy only had enough : for : a partial fill of either. #2 ALMOST had enough but were "a few pills : shy". : At least they were kind enough to call another pharmacy in the same chain : and check to see that they had what I needed and when they did – I was : directed there. : It took the better half of a Saturday afternoon to complete this mission. : : Michele (who is not really complaining – it could be worse!) : : — : — There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming : more : and : — more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are : being : — discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same : quantities : as : — before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also : to : — gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with : other : –meds. : — : — OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended : –indefinitely : — (which we already know). : — : — Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. : — : — If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and : harder : — for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in : –knowing : — what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered : several : — times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to : MSContin : — 100mg. : — : — Mouse : — : — No cute quote; deal with it. : — AIM ID: JSHMTE : — ICQ# 9049058 : — : — : — : — : — : — : — : : : : :

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Ditto, ditto, ditto Codee. I have never been on oxy anything, though I’m headed that-a-away. I do feel like a criminal confined to my house and very limited lifestyle. It isn’t jail but there are very few people I would wish this hell on. Good words, very good words. John "P" K

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : Maybe the government could just put all the people in chronic pain in jail : : and then provide them with oxycontin and other narcotics. This might be : : cheaper and the government could keep an eye on potential drug abusers. : The : : public could feel safe again knowing suffering people are not getting : drugs : : to ease their pain. Chronic pain is a "jail" so why not go all the way? : You might be surprised at how many chronic pain patients ARE in jail. I assure you they are not being give oxycontin or Anything…once they’ve survived cold turky withdrawal….or as the Drug Rehabilitation people like to say… they’ve cleaned up and are rehabilitated, no longer *using*. (while in the four walls) they’re also not being treated. If it sounds like I’m lumping chronic pain paitients with all other drug offenders or criminals of all stripe also…it’s because we are being viewed that way. It’s all about gov. $$$$$ when you have the budget that the war on drugs has, there is money for jails, jailers,"rehab counselors", rehab programs, probation, parole, more programs…..but NADA for chronic pain! Sorry…soapbox anyone?? codeee

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As I posted earlier, my pharmacy finally admitted that they don’t want to carry large amounts of the drug because they are afraid of being robbed. I always have to go back to get the rest because they only have 1/2 of my prescription. That has NOTHING to do with drugs not being available. It’s scared pharmacists. And the weird thing is that most of the robberies are done by pharmacists and drug employees, not crazed patients! Bev

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our local pharmacy will ‘partial fill’ our script, and issue a second to fill the balance which we pick up a few days later. It’s never been a problem, and they give us a slip for the balance so we have ‘proof’. Weird – I had to go to THREE pharmacies to get my oxycontin and vicoprofen prescriptions filled this last month. My usual pharmacy only had enough for a partial fill of either. #2 ALMOST had enough but were "a few pills shy". At least they were kind enough to call another pharmacy in the same chain and check to see that they had what I needed and when they did – I was directed there. It took the better half of a Saturday afternoon to complete this mission. Michele (who is not really complaining – it could be worse!) — — There are several Schedule II meds that are increasingly becoming more and — more difficult for pharmacies to get for their patients. Some are being — discontinued; others are just not being produced in the same quantities as — before. This is so anyone taking these meds is forewarned, and also to — gather info if there are any other trends in specific areas with other –meds. — — OxyContin 160mg has had both production and shipping suspended –indefinitely — (which we already know). — — Others include methadone 10mg, dilaudid 8mg, Levorphanol 2mg. — — If anyone is aware of other medications that are getting harder and harder — for pharmacies to order please email me; my doctor is interested in –knowing — what they are. I’ve seen my Oramorph SR 100mg pills backordered several — times recently–so much so that I’ve decided to switch back to MSContin — 100mg. — — Mouse — — No cute quote; deal with it. — AIM ID: JSHMTE — ICQ# 9049058 — — — — — — —

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